"THAT'S What You're Talking About!"

[MistWolf]

For a long time, I've read the advice to "roll your elbows in" to help control recoil while shooting an handgun. It's supposed to lock your hands together for a better grip. I tried it and it didn't work. Instead of locking my hands together, rolling my elbows in actually pulled my hands apart. Worse, my elbows were now horizontal and tended to bend upward during recoil.

Recently, I watched a video by Warrior Poet Society. He gave a couple of tips on how to control recoil to get back on target quicker. He talked about "rolling the elbows in" and demonstrated the technique by rolling his elbows out.

At least, that's how I think of it. I took up archery when I was very young and our coach taught us that if we didn't roll the elbow of our bow arm out (from the horizontal to vertical) and out of the path of the bow string, it would slap the arm painfully. Our coach told us to roll the bottom of out elbow out. When the bottom of the elbow is rolled out, the top of the elbow is rolled in. A small thing perhaps, but for me, an illuminating moment as I finally grasp the concept.

It also reminded me that, while we often take it for granted we all speak a common language, we don't always speak the same language.

[beenalongtime]

I know exactly what you mean, and it is why when I try to learn something, trying to understand the language is SO important.
I recently took my CCL class and a friend of a friend was the teacher. He took the last year off from competition after having a medical procedure. I was the only one in the class that had shot before and I picked up on something, that I may have been taught before, but never registered. I watched him demo shooting stance, etc (dry fire/no ammo in class) and as he did he mentioned/demo'd watching the sights as they raised and lowered. That is not an angle I had ever seen before (aiming towards a safe wall behind me), as one is not normally aside of the muzzle.
That isn't something that ever registered with me as my thoughts were based more around, I've shot, is the target down/dropping their gun, etc? It improved my follow up shots, but I am still fighting with it based on the logic of the least amount of shots I have to, to do the job and if I am paying attention to the front sight, am I seeing the targets response.
I know things change/slow down in those scenario's based on my times at gun point. (view things differently) The conscientious side of me just worries about going from justified to murder and the legal consequences.

[Dismas316]

I believe this is the video the op is referring to. Get to the 5min mark and he discusses this technique.

https://youtu.be/q_qMcaCwBZc

[Jay Cunningham]

Conveying information clearly is important. I'm not sure telling someone to do something with their elbows is a great way to communicate how to grip the pistol. It's describing a result and not the goal. The goal is to apply grip pressure as high on the pistol (and across as much surface area) as possible. When doing this, a natural result is that the elbows will tend to "flare outward and up" while the forearms are torqueing inward.

[spinmove_]

Conveying information clearly is important. I'm not sure telling someone to do something with their elbows is a great way to communicate how to grip the pistol. It's describing a result and not the goal. The goal is to apply grip pressure as high on the pistol (and across as much surface area) as possible. When doing this, a natural result is that the elbows will tend to "flare outward and up" while the forearms are torqueing inward.

This.

I’ve found personally that anytime I take focus away from managing recoil with my hands my grip ultimately suffers and recoil management goes out the window. Grip is the foundation for managing recoil. Make that foundation not solid and everything else topples down on top of it. Make it solid and everything else stands solidly in place.

Fill in the cracks in your basement and your house won’t fall down. Also, don’t build your house on sand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Cunningham]

Grip is the foundation for managing recoil.

Not just that.

Grip is also the foundation for aggressive trigger manipulation without detrimentally moving the gun.

[Peally]

To break people's hearts even more: your elbows have fuck-all to do with shooting well :cool:


ETA: aw Jay beat me to the punch.

[GuanoLoco]

To break people's hearts even more: your elbows have fuck-all to do with shooting well :cool:


ETA: aw Jay beat me to the punch.

I’m niot sure that’s entirely true - I started with a self-taught elbows locked technique (noob shooting a .40 at the square range) and my shooting improved when I went to a more workable “elbows out” mode.

[Jay Cunningham]

Locked elbows are bad for two reasons:

They transfer recoil straight back into shoulders. That's a tall impulse and can knock you off balance easily. But locked elbows also break your grip high on the gun and tend to establish it lower.

So yeah; don't lock your elbows. But form follows function.

All too often instructors struggle with conflating function following form.

[Peally]

I’m niot sure that’s entirely true - I started with a self-taught elbows locked technique (noob shooting a .40 at the square range) and my shooting improved when I went to a more workable “elbows out” mode.

Doing goofy shit with your arms can help, but it's a poor form crutch for bad fundamentals. Like granny style bowling.

[Chain]

Couldn't elbows be considered a component of grip in the same way that wrists are?

[HCountyGuy]

I tend to keep this bookmarked when I find myself goofing up some area of fundamentals at the range.

https://pistol-training.com/articles/speed-kills

In it, Todd touches on some basic fundamentals of how the body needs to work with the gun. When it comes to grip, this advice is towards the end of that segment:


Finally, press inwards with both hands by tightening your chest muscles. This will significantly reduce the muzzle’s movement in recoil.

I’ve found the pressing inward to help, and to press inward better it can help to raise your elbows up and out to be able to apply more side-to-side/inward pressure.

I remember seeing a video that touched on the raising elbows but for the life of me can’t remember who did it.

[MistWolf]

I'm no kind of expert when it comes to shooting handguns. I feel I'm mediocre at best. I haven't consciously tried rolling the tops of my elbows in while shooting, but I did try it dry firing last night. Doing so gave me a more solid and firmer grip with less strain, compared to not consciously rolling my elbows at all. I found the sights has less wobble.

[Jay Cunningham]

Couldn't elbows be considered a component of grip in the same way that wrists are?

No.

Elbow positions respond a certain way depending upon how you grip.

If you grip the gun with most of your pressure as high up near the slide as you can get it, your elbows will typically look a certain way.

If you grip the gun with more of your pressure lower on the grip, your elbows will typically look a certain way.

A good instructor can view your elbow positions as a "tell" concerning what's going on overall. There are other such "tells".


The hands, wrists, forearms, pecs, and traps come into play when gripping a pistol. The web (between thumb and index) and last two fingers of the firing hand especially come into play, and the "ball" of the support hand thumb (between thumb and wrist) especially comes into play.


Soo... be goal-oriented instead of attempting to make various pieces parts look a certain way.

[HopetonBrown]

When I see instructors say to engage the pecs, or pinch the shoulder blades together, I think of Ben Stoeger's advice: "grip the gun with your hands".

[Clobbersaurus]

When I see instructors say to engage the pecs, or pinch the shoulder blades together, I think of Ben Stoeger's advice: "grip the gun with your hands".

The grouch in me wants to agree with you, but over time I’ve come to belive that pressing into the side plannels of the grip, as hard as freakin’ possible, provides more favourable sight movement than other techniques. If you have to use your pecs to do that, then sure, do that.

Hand size and shape, coupled with grip strength, and trigger manipulation prefereance make all other instruction on the perfect grip technique kinda useless IMO, providing you aren’t doing something totally stupid like teacup, Hawaii 5-O, Weaver, etc.

You have to do what works best for you.

[runcible]

Replying broadly and mostly to the OP...

The language I prefer to use is, “roll both elbows over,” which is certainly less of a mouthful then “load contra-rotational tension onto the gun using your pectorals and trapezius muscles in addition to the forearm and hand muscles you’ve already been using,” which is also less ambiguous than the “roll them in” with most of folks. I guess it’s a matter of over/under vs in/out, so that they can work through what it’s not and back to what is in fact being requested.

My experience and observation is that when such a wringing onto the gun is compared to the “clapping” lateral press, it outperforms for most as far as: being gentle upon the elbows, creeping the grip and pressure higher up on the gun, and shifting recoil from being born by the wrists to the shoulders/back.

Caveat: those with significant wrist damage may Experience good shooting results but experience some discomfort after a period of firing. Sample of one, and his wrist is high-functioning, but had to be mentioned.

Non-shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: are the tips of the elbows more outboard or more downward?

Shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: is there significant articulation of the wrists under recoil?

This sort of technique is certainly biased towards the athletic and/or physically aware, but it absolutely shines with the slight or petite of build when running duty guns with duty chamberings.

[runcible]

Having now watched the video, a few caveats:

I ask my shooters to roll both elbows over, and if I have it right WP is asking for only the non-shooting side to be torquing.

The teaching tool I use to teach basic elements of posture and an aggressively forward stance is to ask my students to either keep an inwardly-opening door shut against forceful entry (defensive overtone) or to push the nearest structural wall over (offensive overtone). After exhorting them to greater and greater legitimate efforts to accomplish these goals, from which some sort of staggered footing and squared hips generally emerges; I ask them to keep their feet planted and their posture as-is, but to relax their forward drive (not lean) until their upper body is upright and their shoulders above or just forward of their hips, and as their hands detach from the wall/door to clasp them together in front of themselves. Generally resembles what I desire from an ideal and static shooting stance, though occasionally the feet need to be shuffled.

Mountain Goating behind the firing line briefly has also helped quite a number get more aggressively behind the gun and to get a better internal sense of having that upright head orientation.

[Simong]

Hi all.

Take a look at this very long video from real TOP world shooters, this guy worked very hard to put it together, it will sure make some of us totally confused.
IMHO at the end of the day YOU the individual need to find out what grip works best for YOU, not what works for me him or what the video said.

Enjoy... Simong.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBd3ColVJ0

[runcible]

An over-valuation of the subjective in the face of human-factors driven methodology, holds many a student back and far short of being their best.

Why bother seeking excellence and then trying to share it with one’s fellows, if someone’s just going to pop out of the hedge and mutter, “well, that’s like your opinion, man?”

[JHC]

I’m niot sure that’s entirely true - I started with a self-taught elbows locked technique (noob shooting a .40 at the square range) and my shooting improved when I went to a more workable “elbows out” mode.

I started with Weaver in the 60's/70's as a kiddo, moved to ISO 80's, modern-ISO in the 90's. Watching Sevigny's elbows in vids and at Conyers GSSF and tried to adopt and hated it.


Then a couple years ago a shooter (@BES) gave me some F2F coaching tips on it and it took. It's a big help for me. I don't have a super strong grip and it helps with support hand leverage and pressure IMO.


I used to get so much Glock slide bite I'd use pic of my bloody web of my hand as an avatar. But since this change in elbows with resulting leverage, the Glock slide bite is gone.


I kinda miss it sometimes.



OTOH to runcible 's point about wrist discomfort - on some days, I can get a stabbing sharp pain in the left wrist. Haven't noticed a pattern of why/when as weeks or months might separate bouts. Seems like it usually just stabs suddenly once at the end of a string as I release pressure. Don't know what's up with that.

[runcible]

My one guy who demurred on it had a lifting-related injury, I believe to his non-shooting hand. I want to say that he'd also had surgery on it a few years ago, and demurred as much from an abundance of caution as from the sensations. I don't hold it against him at all; he did well and gave it a more than fair shake, and he was pretty open about how he liked the results but we both agreed he had to be mindful of sustainability if the wrist was still sensitive.

Re: discomfort contemporaneous to the last-round fired; if that last round is deviated higher or lower than the rest of the grouping, then that's generally indicative that you've subconsciously unlocked your load-up on the gun prior to actually firing. It's not uncommon, and is at times a pretty common cause of final-round flyers with some of my folks. What I believe to be the underlying causation is subconsciously preparing to retract to one's ready position or perform a scripted reload, with the timing of the transition overtaking into the actual footprint of the firing process (e.g. sights\trigger\manage-recoil). Some sort of prescription of follow-through (e.g. additional sight-picture + trigger-reset if resetting to a ready position or performing a slide-forward reload, tactile cueing\recognition if performing a slide-locked reload) usually fixes the problem. Where it ties in with wrist discomfort, is if the unlocking isn't symmetric, one of those hands may be unexpectedly bearing more of the recoil impulse than expected, or in a new and unexpected manner that it is less setup to receive. That way, the grip that is loaded up on that gun is enduring and at full intensity for the entire duration of that last recoil cycle, rather than breaking apart prematurely with good intentions only to receive a penalty.

(If the above is applicable to what you've got, I think it's a reflection of how we generally train on the square range. It doesn't come up too often in FOF - unless you've got someone who always shoots a certain # of rounds to a target and then stops themselves, rather then shooting until the target's actions dictate otherwise, in which case you may see similar oddball shots as they hit the end of their internal scripting.)