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WDW
03-02-2012, 08:34 AM
As everyone here knows, carrying a pistol for self defense carries with it grave responsibility. Choices you make with that weapon can and will change your life and the life of those involved with your decision forever. That being said, does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?

Laws varies from state to state, and it is YOUR responsibility to know them, but scenarios such as third party victims, carjacking, home invasion, robbery in a public setting and other things should be played through in your mind long before you ever encounter them.

In my home state of TN, I am perfectly entitled to use deadly force on a car jacker, but in most cases I will not. It is simply so much easier to mash the gas and drive away. In that situation my safety lies in putting as much distance between me and the BG. Now, obviously if I am unable to drive because of traffic or not actually being in the vehicle at the time, I would act appropiately.

Another possible situation and one that we are likely to encounter at some point, is that of the defense of a third party victim. Again, in TN, deadly force is justified in the defense of another. But ask yourself this, are you willing to risk your life, freedom, and reputation in the defense of a complete stranger when you may not even know the details involved in the situation? The person you kill, who you thought was the BG, may infact be the victim! I have made a personal choice not to use deadly force in the defense of a third party. In today's litigious society, it just does not make sense to me. My choice stems partly from the fact that every single law abiding citizen in the state of TN has the privelige of obtaing an HCP and carrying a weapon. If someone is not enlighted enough to realize that safety and self defense are a personal responsibility and not the LEO's than I do not feel I should be responsble for them. I am sure many will disagree, but that is my stance and I will adhere to it.

Obviously one cannot think out every possible scenario, but you can establish an unmovable line that coordinates with commonly encountered threats and train according to it. While something is going down is not the time to establish your personal views on the situation.

RoyGBiv
03-02-2012, 09:14 AM
"Every plan is good until the first shot is fired."... attributed to Erwin Rommel
"Plans are of little importance, but planning is essential.".... Winston Churchill
"Plans are nothing; planning is everything.".... Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."... Mike Tyson
"There but for the grace of God (go I)".... John Bradford
"You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"... song by Aaron Tippin

"Have a plan, but don't be a slave to it."... RoyGBiv

So you witness a third party carjacking. Tweaker with a gun pulls a lady out of her car and tries to take off with a baby in the back seat.
You're directly behind the event, next in line at the light. 15 feet difference in place and time and it would be you.

Your plan is to do nothing. It was her responsibility to bring a gun to the fight.
I hope your plan is flexible. Especially if it was my wife and kids.

At what point does being a citizen, a member of the "Village", compel you to act?
When you read about the body of that baby being discovered in a ditch, will you ever be able look at your own children the same way again?

I'm not saying I would do anything except be a good witness in this situation either, too many details missing from the scenario.... But part of planning should also be planning for contingencies and aftermath. Don't be a slave to your plan, or any one part of your plan. Life's a bitch that way.

TCinVA
03-02-2012, 09:31 AM
My plan is to use the least amount of force necessary to protect myself and family from harm.

As a general rule I don't have a desire to get involved in somebody else's problem. Now there are certainly some things I simply will not allow to happen in my presence, but they tend to be fairly high up on the scale of bad-guy behavior. I mean, if someone wants to behead a toddler in front of me, we're going to have a problem. If I see two idiots who are spinning themselves into a swirling torrent of stupidity, I'm not about to involve myself because stupid people cannot be convinced to do anything but be themselves.

Having a gun doesn't confer upon me any duty or authority (or, frankly, ability) to right the world's wrongs. It's just a tool you break out when there's a compelling need to make the most obnoxious members of the human race knock it off, already...primarily because you or someone you love are the target of their obnoxious behavior.

cracker
03-02-2012, 09:56 AM
Your plan and my plan are about the same, do anything to protect loved ones. When it comes to third party, I like to think I will be like you and get the heck out of dodge. However with that said I honestly do not know if I will be able to turn the other cheek and then live with myself knowing I could have tried to do something to help a victim. So I quess I am not a slave to my plan of looking the other way. I know some hate the what if scenarios, I however like them as it keeps one thinking. I quess what I am saying is, I know where I think I will draw the line in the sand when it comes to family and friends ( I say think because every scenario will be different) When it comes to third party I dont have a clue, I wonder how the family would react to lossing the house to pay for legal fees or me getting killed (if that would be the case what happened after that would not effect me personally) but what if I got severly hurt and disabled now the family will be affected for the rest of your life. I play out the what if scenario in my head all the time and I do think it will help if the time ever comes but until it happens we can only quess what we will do. Very good thread I will be watching this one.

WDW
03-02-2012, 09:56 AM
[/QUOTE]So you witness a third party carjacking. Tweaker with a gun pulls a lady out of her car and tries to take off with a baby in the back seat.
You're directly behind the event, next in line at the light. 15 feet difference in place and time and it would be you.

Your plan is to do nothing. It was her responsibility to bring a gun to the fight.
I hope your plan is flexible. Especially if it was my wife and kids.

At what point does being a citizen, a member of the "Village", compel you to act?
When you read about the body of that baby being discovered in a ditch, will you ever be able look at your own children the same way again?

I'm not saying I would do anything except be a good witness in this situation either, too many details missing from the scenario.... But part of planning should also be planning for contingencies and aftermath. Don't be a slave to your plan, or any one part of your plan. Life's a bitch that way.[/QUOTE]

See, in that situation, you don't know all the details. The women could easily be the kidnapper and the guy with the gun the dad whose child was just stolen as a result of a bitter custody battle. Bottom line, you don't know. I am just saying that you should have a stance developed and stick to it. My point is that you should not wait until something happens before you decide how you feel about it. Of course you have to be flexible and the situation always dictates action. My primary focus is my and my family's safety. I am referring to the use of deadly force here. If someone collapsed or was in a car accident I would certainly stop and assist them. People have a right and duty to decide for themselves. If they choose to ignore the need to defend themselves I pity them, but I will not compromise myself or my family because of their stupidity.

WDW
03-02-2012, 10:06 AM
I say all of this only because a few years ago I was involved in a 3rd party situation and actually had to draw down on a guy to deescalate things until LE showed up. I was cleared completely in the incident, but after I got home I started playing the scenario over and over in my mind and I quickly saw just how easlily I could have ruined my entire life by acting on a complete stranger's behalf.

Zhurdan
03-02-2012, 10:13 AM
A little long winded, but pertinent.

Been there regarding third party folks. Not a fun situation. All in all, I got lucky and the Trooper told me as such in very colorful words.

My brother and I came up on a stop light right after we'd been shooting at a range with the really cool video range, but anyways... There were about five cars ahead of us and it appeared there was a wreck or something going on in the intersection. People were skirting by as the lights changed until we got up near the front. We could hear someone yelling and figured it was just some pissed off motorist. I rolled down my window to see what the mess was all about.

At that time, it became very clear that this wasn't your every day fender bender. There was a mini van at 45 degrees in the middle to far side of the intersection. Ok, no big deal, except for the skinny dude with one of those 45 degree lug nut wrenches working over the windshield and hood of the mini van. At this point, I was fairly new to carrying a gun (approx 2 years) and may have had delusions of grandeur that would make Greedo back away.

I could see the woman in the van and she was definitely frightened. I told my brother to get on the phone (huuuuuge bag phone back then) and to call it in and to especially let them know what I'm wearing and that I am a permit holder and armed. I got out of the car, after pleading from my brother to "just drive on", and yelled at the guy to stop. Figuring at the distance he was at, I could simply jump back in and drive off. Right up until I saw the baby seat in the back. Couldn't tell at that point if there was a baby in it, but that isn't what was really going through my mind. He didn't hear a word I was saying. I repeated for him to stop several times and still nothing. He started to move towards the driver side window and at that point I escalated my words to include those of which cannot be said on this forum. He heard that fo sho!

All this time, I've got my hand near my gun right until he turned towards me (saying a few choice words, some of which were I'll kill you too M'r F'r). I put my hand on the gun and he was approximately 35-40 feet away. He started closing distance but not very fast. I drew the gun to low ready while telling him to drop it/stop it. He didn't even see it. He was target locked on my eyes and honestly, I was a bit locked on to his as well. When he got a bit closer, probably 20 feet (waaaaay too close for comfort) I raised the gun while still barking at him to stop. Flicked the safety off and put my finger on the trigger. At this point, he saw the gun and things changed dramatically. He dropped the lug wrench and went to his knees. No shots fired, thank God.


Ok, on to the question at hand... 20-21 feet, in my opinion is waaaay too close for comfort. I know that's the Teuller drill distance, but in the real deal, that feels like they're breathing down your neck! So, if you can see the threat, and it doesn't involve a projectile firing device, I'd say that it comes in stages. I think it worked out pretty well in this case, but if it did involve a gun, I'd have been toast.

All that being said, involving ones self in a third party incident has been bumped way down on my list... right next to fight a polar bear and a brown bear at the same time. The responding officers did their jobs well. I followed commands and ended up in the back of a patrol car. On par with what I would have expected. They took their statements, checked out the scene and came to talk to me. The trooper that hooked me up and put me in his car said something that has stuck with me all this time.

He said "You know what? You're a lucky Son of a B***h! Her story of what happened matches your story, and let me tell you bub, that never happens!"

Yup, I involved myself in a domestic situation and 9 times out of 10 they still side with their abuser and go running back to them in the end. I was about 4-5 lbs of pressure away from changing my life forever and thank God that it didn't come to that AND thank God that that woman was ready to get out of that abusive relationship or it would have STILL been a very very bad day for me.

As far as drawing a line in the sand... well, I'd hope that others would come to my aide in a time of need, but I really can't blame them if they don't. I know that I'd have a much harder time in the same situation today.

I also think as I said earlier, that line moves depending on the threat. Non-gun threat, stages. Gun threat, sky's the limit if they're looking my way because bullets don't know or care about Teuller.

JHC
03-02-2012, 10:24 AM
I have things in my head and in my hands that not many in the general public have. I have cultivated these attributes for decades. I will wade in on behalf of the weak/victim/prey. I was raised by Roy Henning Carlson. To do less would be a disgrace to everything he stood for. That is not going to happen. Standing by is not going to be my contribution to the world or the example I set to my sons. Some things aren't for sale.

I have interceded on behalf of innocent 3rd parties who were or were about to be preyed upon. These things worked out well; no shots ever fired. This has never involved interceding on domestic incidents where it looked rough but not deadly. Those incidents were relayed to LE. Judgement is important and it is a very good filter. There is no room for sloppy judgement.

Great topic for a thread. These are the 1st principle foundational issues.

JHC
03-02-2012, 10:29 AM
A little long winded, but pertinent.

Been there regarding third party folks. Not a fun situation. All in all, I got lucky and the Trooper told me as such in very colorful words.

My brother and I came up on a stop light right after we'd been shooting at a range with the really cool video range, but anyways... There were about five cars ahead of us and it appeared there was a wreck or something going on in the intersection. People were skirting by as the lights changed until we got up near the front. We could hear someone yelling and figured it was just some pissed off motorist. I rolled down my window to see what the mess was all about.

At that time, it became very clear that this wasn't your every day fender bender. There was a mini van at 45 degrees in the middle to far side of the intersection. Ok, no big deal, except for the skinny dude with one of those 45 degree lug nut wrenches working over the windshield and hood of the mini van. At this point, I was fairly new to carrying a gun (approx 2 years) and may have had delusions of grandeur that would make Greedo back away.

I could see the woman in the van and she was definitely frightened. I told my brother to get on the phone (huuuuuge bag phone back then) and to call it in and to especially let them know what I'm wearing and that I am a permit holder and armed. I got out of the car, after pleading from my brother to "just drive on", and yelled at the guy to stop. Figuring at the distance he was at, I could simply jump back in and drive off. Right up until I saw the baby seat in the back. Couldn't tell at that point if there was a baby in it, but that isn't what was really going through my mind. He didn't hear a word I was saying. I repeated for him to stop several times and still nothing. He started to move towards the driver side window and at that point I escalated my words to include those of which cannot be said on this forum. He heard that fo sho!

All this time, I've got my hand near my gun right until he turned towards me (saying a few choice words, some of which were I'll kill you too M'r F'r). I put my hand on the gun and he was approximately 35-40 feet away. He started closing distance but not very fast. I drew the gun to low ready while telling him to drop it/stop it. He didn't even see it. He was target locked on my eyes and honestly, I was a bit locked on to his as well. When he got a bit closer, probably 20 feet (waaaaay too close for comfort) I raised the gun while still barking at him to stop. Flicked the safety off and put my finger on the trigger. At this point, he saw the gun and things changed dramatically. He dropped the lug wrench and went to his knees. No shots fired, thank God.


Ok, on to the question at hand... 20-21 feet, in my opinion is waaaay too close for comfort. I know that's the Teuller drill distance, but in the real deal, that feels like they're breathing down your neck! So, if you can see the threat, and it doesn't involve a projectile firing device, I'd say that it comes in stages. I think it worked out pretty well in this case, but if it did involve a gun, I'd have been toast.

All that being said, involving ones self in a third party incident has been bumped way down on my list... right next to fight a polar bear and a brown bear at the same time. The responding officers did their jobs well. I followed commands and ended up in the back of a patrol car. On par with what I would have expected. They took their statements, checked out the scene and came to talk to me. The trooper that hooked me up and put me in his car said something that has stuck with me all this time.

He said "You know what? You're a lucky Son of a B***h! Her story of what happened matches your story, and let me tell you bub, that never happens!"

Yup, I involved myself in a domestic situation and 9 times out of 10 they still side with their abuser and go running back to them in the end. I was about 4-5 lbs of pressure away from changing my life forever and thank God that it didn't come to that AND thank God that that woman was ready to get out of that abusive relationship or it would have STILL been a very very bad day for me.

As far as drawing a line in the sand... well, I'd hope that others would come to my aide in a time of need, but I really can't blame them if they don't. I know that I'd have a much harder time in the same situation today.

I also think as I said earlier, that line moves depending on the threat. Non-gun threat, stages. Gun threat, sky's the limit if they're looking my way because bullets don't know or care about Teuller.

How would you rate your life if you drove on by and he beat her brains in with that tire iron and did God knows what with the infant? Well done. The HELL with what the Trooper said. You stood up as an old school Man of courage and honor. That is a test, and you passed. How much $$$ is that worth?

WDW
03-02-2012, 10:42 AM
How would you rate your life if you drove on by and he beat her brains in with that tire iron and did God knows what with the infant? Well done. The HELL with what the Trooper said. You stood up as an old school Man of courage and honor. That is a test, and you passed. How much $$$ is that worth?

How would he feel if he squeezed the trigger and the lady sided with her abuser and he got life in prison. Now his child if he has one will grow up without a father. Unfortunately, life is not as simple as doing the percieved right thing. "Right" is too subjective. Once again, that woman made a choice not to prepare for the defense of herself or her child. We must live with the choices we make and their consequences. I would love to live in a world where we could all be honorable and do what is right towards one another, but that just ain't ever gonna happen. At a certain point, self preservation comes to mind. Now keep in mind, the entire focus of this discussion is use of deadly force. We are not talking about helping someone in need or distress.

JDM
03-02-2012, 10:48 AM
Intervention in 3rd party conflicts is an incredibly dangerous thing.

Suffice it to say that unless it is an extremely clear set of circumstances (think uniformed police officer in imminent danger of losing his life) I'm going to be nothing more than a good witness. I'm not my brothers keeper, I'm not a police officer, and my daughter needs a father.

RoyGBiv
03-02-2012, 10:49 AM
See, in that situation, you don't know all the details.
Yes, agreed... and I wasn't intending to criticize your plan (sorry if it sounded that way)... other than to suggest that a plan needs to be flexible. I, too, intend to stay clear of situations where I am not directly involved.. Be a good witness, my family foremost in my thoughts. But standing by watching "a bad thing happen" is not easy to do either.
<tiphat>

Zhurdan
03-02-2012, 10:50 AM
How would you rate your life if you drove on by and he beat her brains in with that tire iron and did God knows what with the infant? Well done. The HELL with what the Trooper said. You stood up as an old school Man of courage and honor. That is a test, and you passed. How much $$$ is that worth?

While I agree with you that it was the right thing to do, I not only involved myself in danger, but my brother who was in the car and had two young children at home. That never crossed my mind at the time. I've just added a few checks and balances to the equation since that time with years to think about it.

I got flowers from that lady for 8-9 years after the incident. It felt damn good, but if my wife were in the car with me and that same thing happened, I would weigh it differently. I'm sure you can agree on that though right?

Honestly, If I didn't do anything about it and she were killed... I know it would have haunted me. I know this because I have another incident that does. (not CCW related) I should have noticed some key indicators and blatant signs (hindsight) in some behavior of a room mate in college. He killed himself. It haunts me that I did nothing when I could have.

Sparks2112
03-02-2012, 10:58 AM
In all seriousness I'm probably getting involved in most situations. Not getting involved did not work out well for Peter Parker, fictional character obviously but you never know and living with stuff you didn't do is harder than living with stuff you did, in my experience.

JDM
03-02-2012, 11:01 AM
In all seriousness I'm probably getting involved in most situations. Not getting involved did not work out well for Peter Parker, fictional character obviously but you never know and living with stuff you didn't do is harder than living with stuff you did, in my experience.

I think sitting in prison because I killed someone that I shouldn't have killed while my daughter grows up without me would be much harder than thinking 'what if'. YMMV.

NETim
03-02-2012, 11:24 AM
I came to the conclusion long ago that I carry for me and mine. Selfish? I 'spose so but as I age and grow even more cynical, after what I continually hear expressed about CCW and permit holders by various self-appointed "experts", I don't want to help these a-holes. If they want to be blissninnies, that's their business. It appears many in our society truly want to believe CCW permit holders are trigger-happy, inept, cop wannabe boobs and are quite happy to insult and malign those who carry. Screw 'em. They're on their own. I will not stick my legal neck out for them nor will I risk personal injury.

I sincerely doubt there would be 1 in a 1000 of them that would come to my legal aid in a post-shooting civil suit, should it come to that.

Sheep don't like sheepdogs it appears.

Nope, I'll be a good witness whenever possible and get my family out the back door ASAP the rest of the time.

I'm a harsh bastard I know.

Sparks2112
03-02-2012, 11:28 AM
I think sitting in prison because I killed someone that I shouldn't have killed while my daughter grows up without me would be much harder than thinking 'what if'. YMMV.

That's the problem with the right thing in a situation like that. You never know what it is until after you've done it.

JHC
03-02-2012, 11:37 AM
How would he feel if he squeezed the trigger and the lady sided with her abuser and he got life in prison. Now his child if he has one will grow up without a father. Unfortunately, life is not as simple as doing the percieved right thing. "Right" is too subjective. Once again, that woman made a choice not to prepare for the defense of herself or her child. We must live with the choices we make and their consequences. I would love to live in a world where we could all be honorable and do what is right towards one another, but that just ain't ever gonna happen. At a certain point, self preservation comes to mind. Now keep in mind, the entire focus of this discussion is use of deadly force. We are not talking about helping someone in need or distress.

No, too much physical evidence at the seen of BG attacking the car plus other witnesses to the clear threat of severe bodily harm or death. Your set up doesn't work so easily.

These are extremely personal decisions of defining the meaning of one's life. Some would like to live in that world but will choose not to because the risks are too high to do so. That's a choice. That world of honor, courage and sacrifice to the community is not worth the feared price tag. There are consequences to all choices.

I have kept in mind the focus is on deadly force. The problem is that helping someone a little can escalate very quickly.

JHC
03-02-2012, 11:41 AM
Why try to talk those who would intervene out of our decisions? Do you assume we have not had time in our decades of work to think it through or is it about your own decisions? Honest question.

JHC
03-02-2012, 11:42 AM
In all seriousness I'm probably getting involved in most situations. Not getting involved did not work out well for Peter Parker, fictional character obviously but you never know and living with stuff you didn't do is harder than living with stuff you did, in my experience.

In my experience also.

peterb
03-02-2012, 11:58 AM
A good discussion of getting involved: http://corneredcat.com/Saving_the_Life_of_a_Stranger/

And thinking about personal boundaries: http://corneredcat.com/Personal_Boundaries/

As an EMT, I've certainly walked into situations that were not what they appeared to be, and have been surprised at who ended up leaving in handcuffs. My natural inclination to rush to help has been moderated.

ford.304
03-02-2012, 12:44 PM
One thing I think that often gets left out of these... how much does the gun actually change what you would do?

Regardless of whether I'm carrying or not, if I have an honest belief that I'm about to watch someone get killed or raped, I don't know that I can not do something. I believe we have a duty to each other, to do what good we can with what comes into our immediate vicinity.

Doesn't mean I don't expect there to be a lot more situations where I don't have that hard belief, but just have a whole lot of worry... and then I honestly don't know what I do until it happens.

Because you're rarely actually getting to say "I'd step in if I saw someone in danger", you're saying "I'd step in if I'm 60% sure someone is in danger, but probably not 59%" - because you almost never get to be 100% sure.

Mitchell, Esq.
03-02-2012, 12:59 PM
It really is as simple as OODA.

Observe, Orient, Decide, Act.


As everyone here knows, carrying a pistol for self defense carries with it grave responsibility. Choices you make with that weapon can and will change your life and the life of those involved with your decision forever. That being said, does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?

Laws varies from state to state, and it is YOUR responsibility to know them, but scenarios such as third party victims, carjacking, home invasion, robbery in a public setting and other things should be played through in your mind long before you ever encounter them.


I am reading this as you are thinking situationally and not conceptually in that you are fixating on a particular situation or people involved in a situation as you trigger for intervening, rather than making the decission in accord with the way your actions would be judged:

The Subjective/Objective standard using Ability/Opportunity/Intent as it's measures.
...


Obviously one cannot think out every possible scenario, but you can establish an unmovable line that coordinates with commonly encountered threats and train according to it. While something is going down is not the time to establish your personal views on the situation.



Why plan out a "firm line" for fluid situations?

Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man - Gen. Patton.

Your decission making process when using lethal force - or for that matter ANY force - can't be fixed.

Your line in the sand should be simply this, "Use appropriate force based on the situation" because otherwise, the thinking of "I am perfectly entitled to use deadly force..." starts from the decission already being made before the information is processed instead of the situation being processed and a decission being the end result.

The goal isn't to just with the fight...

It's to win the fight, the aftermath and everything else which may come up.

Knowing how your actions will be reviewed after a situation is like the way someone studies for the bar exam.

You will not know what questions are asked, and you will only have what you have learned to help you find/guess the answers - but you will know how the test is graded, and you can write your answer to hit as many of the discussion points the guy reading your essay will be looking for.

Hit enough correct points, even if your final answer comes to the wrong conclusion, and you pass.
Fail to do so...you fail.

You have to be reasonable.

Not always RIGHT...but reasonable.

peterb
03-02-2012, 01:06 PM
“In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.”

Dwight David Eisenhower

TCinVA
03-02-2012, 01:10 PM
My natural inclination to rush to help has been moderated.

This. Folks, if you've never done a ride-along with the local constabulary do one a few times. Go on calls with them about fights and various other assaults and then watch as the officer gets told 5 different stories and finds out that none of them are true and see how differently things look at the end of an investigation than they did when you rolled up on the scene. You'll find that most police officers off duty are not inclined to involve themselves in such things precisely because they know how big a mess they can have on their hands while wearing no body armor and having no radio to call for backup on. The example of a dude in a parking lot wailing on a woman seems like the easy scenario where you play John Wayne and smash that guy's face.

...at least until you feel the knife sink into you because the woman that was getting pummeled by this scumbag is stabbing you. That ain't a hypothetical, either...it's happened. Real abusive relationships rarely look anything like a lifetime movie. They are that dysfunctional because the people in them are that dysfunctional...and dysfunctional people can react in surprising ways when you meddle in their affairs. Does that mean you whistle on by while he's bashing her head in with a tire iron? No...but if it's not at that point you're probably better off calling the cops and letting the people with the badge and all that goes with it (qualified immunity, indemnification against civil suits, and arrest powers, for example) handle the problem while you keep your distance. Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, they have a better shot at getting to the truth of the matter and contributing to a solution than the random passer by.

I was raised to help people and I've been involved in helping people all my life through various charitable endeavors. Having spent my entire adult life trying to help others, I've learned that when you attempt to help others the chances are about 50/50 you're going to get screwed in the process. That doesn't mean you never take the risk, it just means you go about it carefully. There's a reason why even in the Bible Jesus warns His disciples to be as wise as serpents...because human nature is an ugly thing and if you try to help people, you're going to get bit.

There are some situations in life where you can be the factor that turns it around for the good.

Just as true, however, is that there are a whole lot more situations in which even your best efforts are absolutely futile. Yes, it would be nice if the world worked differently, but we don't live in the world as we'd like it to be. We live in it as it is.

I won't tell you to never roll the dice. I'll just remind you that the house usually wins.

EDIT - do you know why average joe CCW holder who has less training and experience is less likely to shoot the wrong person than the average police officer? It's because average joe generally only pulls the trigger when he's under direct assault while the police officer frequently has to wade into the middle of a mess and try to make sense of it. Figuring out who the good guy and bad guy in a situation is happens to be much easier when you are the good guy. It's decidedly more difficult to figure out when you're a third party.

Zhurdan
03-02-2012, 01:19 PM
...snip for brevity
Your decission making process when using lethal force - or for that matter ANY force - can't be fixed.

Your line in the sand should be simply this, "Use appropriate force based on the situation" because otherwise, the thinking of "I am perfectly entitled to use deadly force..." starts from the decission already being made before the information is processed instead of the situation being processed and a decission being the end result.

The goal isn't to just with the fight...

It's to win the fight, the aftermath and everything else which may come up.
...snip for brevity

This is very important. In the situation I related, as the man approached with the lug wrench, I was within the law to continue the trigger pull. But as soon as he dropped it once he saw the gun... the situation changed. That wouldn't matter if he was 30 feet away or 7 feet away. He changed his mind and thus mine had to change as well. If I had dropped the hammer on him, all it would have taken was one witness statement that the bad guy dropped the wrench and gave up and I still dropped him. Good shoot went to Bad shoot in the blink of an eye.

*side note - No, I do not advocate using a weapon to make someone change their mind. I was (at least I feel I was) fully prepared to finish the trigger pull had he not dropped the wrench.

Mitchell, Esq.
03-02-2012, 01:27 PM
...snip for brevity
In the situation I related, as the man approached with the lug wrench, I was within the law to continue the trigger pull. But as soon as he dropped it once he saw the gun... the situation changed. That wouldn't matter if he was 30 feet away or 7 feet away. He changed his mind and thus mine had to change as well. If I had dropped the hammer on him, all it would have taken was one witness statement that the bad guy dropped the wrench and gave up and I still dropped him. Good shoot went to Bad shoot in the blink of an eye.


Depending on the speed of the encounter, the situation that came before, your decission making and mental chronomitry...

It depends.

WDW
03-02-2012, 01:59 PM
My process for using lethal force is fixed. It goes as follows: I will not use leathal force unless I feel that I or those in my care are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. I know you cannot plan out or visualize every single situation. I plan only to use lethal force in a situation where my actions cannot be skewed by a biased third party. The conflict is going to be personal- between me and some other force. It will NEVER be in defense of a stranger.

BaiHu
03-02-2012, 02:07 PM
...These are extremely personal decisions of defining the meaning of one's life. Some would like to live in that world but will choose not to because the risks are too high to do so. That's a choice. That world of honor, courage and sacrifice to the community is not worth the feared price tag. There are consequences to all choices.

I have kept in mind the focus is on deadly force. The problem is that helping someone a little can escalate very quickly.


Depending on the speed of the encounter, the situation that came before, your decission making and mental chronomitry...

It depends.

Thanks for starting this discussion. I don't and can't carry given where I live, but this is a good discussion about civic duty and its 'gray area'.

I found these two sets of quotes as well as Mitchell's 'fixed' thought process to a 'fluid' encounter incredibly poignant. The real shame, in my eyes, is that we, as a generality, have created a hostile environment to the word 'community'. Whether it is legislation that seems to 'harass' the public in order to offset a lack of funds with 'nit picky' tickets or it is 'good samaritans' getting the short end of the stick, our society has put the burden of proof on the generic good guy and taken it off the people who have caused the 'gray area' to appear in the first place.

The real question is when did it all go wrong??

HCM
03-02-2012, 02:09 PM
One thing I think that often gets left out of these... how much does the gun actually change what you would do?

Regardless of whether I'm carrying or not, if I have an honest belief that I'm about to watch someone get killed or raped, I don't know that I can not do something. I believe we have a duty to each other, to do what good we can with what comes into our immediate vicinity.

Doesn't mean I don't expect there to be a lot more situations where I don't have that hard belief, but just have a whole lot of worry... and then I honestly don't know what I do until it happens.

Because you're rarely actually getting to say "I'd step in if I saw someone in danger", you're saying "I'd step in if I'm 60% sure someone is in danger, but probably not 59%" - because you almost never get to be 100% sure.

Granted, it's my job to help those in distress, but it's also how I was raised, even the most basic teachings of religion and societal evolution speak of helping others in need. My natural inclination to rush to help has also been moderated by experience but that’s where discretion and judgment come in because situations like the one detailed below are simply unacceptable to me.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/86-year-old-vet-injured-during-carjacking-at-detroit-gas-station-20120224-ms

DETROIT – A World War II veteran said nobody helped him in the minutes after he was attacked and carjacked during daylight at a busy Detroit gas station and he had to crawl across a concrete parking lot to get help.

A roughly four-minute surveillance video shows 86-year-old Aaron Brantley struggling to get from the fuel pump to the gas station's door as people walked and drove by him Wednesday morning. The video was first obtained by the Detroit Free Press.

"I'm crawling and trying to get in the filing station. [People] just walking right by me and going on in the filling station there ... If I saw somebody crawling like that on the ground, I would have stopped myself," Brantley told myFOXdetroit.com

Brantley was unable to walk because his leg was broken in the attack. The carjacker knocked him down, took his keys and drove off in his car about 10:40 a.m.

"I was trying to go in ... and see if somebody could call the police and an ambulance because I couldn't stand. I had to crawl -- I tried two or three times to get up," Brantley said Saturday. He said he was on way home from Bible study when he stopped to put gas in his 2010 Chrysler 200, which he recently bought to replace another car that had been stolen.

Brantley said as he approached the building, he asked a woman to open the door for him. He said at first it appeared she wasn't going to but she did and then kept walking. He found it distressing that nobody helped him.

"Any time a person is crawling on the ground, you know something happened to them," Brantley said.

Station manager Haissam Jaber said he didn't see the attack but called 911 after a customer alerted him. As Brantley sat on rock salt, waiting for an ambulance to come, he offered money to a stranger to drive him to his house a few blocks away. The customer refused the money and drove Brantley home, where an ambulance took him to the hospital.

Jaber said he also gave police another surveillance video from just before the carjacking that shows Brantley coming in to pay the cashier. A man looked at Brantley and left without buying anything, then headed in the direction from which the carjacker approached Brantley and his car, Jaber said.

Jaber said violent crime isn't common at the gas station, which is next to the University of Detroit Mercy campus. He said there was a carjacking about four months ago, but it happened at 1 a.m. and nobody was attacked.

Detroit Police spokeswoman Sgt. Eren Stephens said Saturday there have been no arrests in the case. The Free Press reported that a man later found Brantley's phone number in his Bible on the stolen car's front seat and called him. The car had been abandoned hours later and a few miles away with its wheels and radio missing.

Brantley raised eight kids, served in the military and is a retired welder. His brush with the cold-hearted criminal left him with a broken leg, but he holds on to his sense of humor.

"I'm glad that [he] didn't shoot me. I wouldn't be laughing. I'd rather laugh now and I still got my life."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

bcauz3y
03-02-2012, 02:16 PM
Obviously one cannot think out every possible scenario, but you can establish an unmovable line that coordinates with commonly encountered threats and train according to it. While something is going down is not the time to establish your personal views on the situation.
Regarding the statement in bold.
I respectfully disagree. All of my lines are movable.

One of my lines, for example, is being approached in a parking lot. I have a predefined distance established where I will begin force escalation.

I will break my rule on that, if allowing that person to come closer could allow my wife or child to un-ass the situation.

Regarding your statement which is underlined, I totally agree. Having hashed out your personal views on killing another person, even if it might be a 15 y/o thug-child, would be handy when that time comes.

RoyGBiv
03-02-2012, 02:44 PM
And thinking about personal boundaries: http://corneredcat.com/Personal_Boundaries/
Quoted because it's worth reading if you haven't already.

David Armstrong
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
My plan is to use the least amount of force necessary to protect myself and family from harm.

As a general rule I don't have a desire to get involved in somebody else's problem. Now there are certainly some things I simply will not allow to happen in my presence, but they tend to be fairly high up on the scale of bad-guy behavior. I mean, if someone wants to behead a toddler in front of me, we're going to have a problem. If I see two idiots who are spinning themselves into a swirling torrent of stupidity, I'm not about to involve myself because stupid people cannot be convinced to do anything but be themselves.

Having a gun doesn't confer upon me any duty or authority (or, frankly, ability) to right the world's wrongs. It's just a tool you break out when there's a compelling need to make the most obnoxious members of the human race knock it off, already...primarily because you or someone you love are the target of their obnoxious behavior.
That pretty well covers it for me. I spent a lot of years getting involved with and taking care of others as part of my job. Nowadays, phooey on others. I'll take care of me and mine, you and yours are not my concern any more. Right now my main, perhaps only, concern is to come home every night. My daughter would doubtless prefer not to go to my premature funeral. I've never understood whay anyone should think that they and theirs should be more important than me and mine. I'll intervene, but only up to the point where it creates a danger for me or my family.

A good discussion on this from Evan Marshall, a BTDT guy, is at http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2011/06/issue-of-intervention.html

Mitchell, Esq.
03-02-2012, 03:38 PM
The real question is when did it all go wrong??

When people who want to be able to use force to protect themselves stopped thinking, and started the line of thinking that "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6".

The laws of use of force are not complex.

People either:
1 think they know them already;
2 believe they are BS and would rather muddle through on firepower & hope;
3 or they are so badly informed that even when they want to learn, they are given such poor information by
group 1 they can just hope for the best.

Some of my best material I pulled fromthe NY Jury Instructions:

“Initial aggressor” means the person who first
attacks or threatens to attack; that is, the first person
who uses or threatens the imminent use of offensive
physical force. The actual striking of the first blow or
inflicting of the first wound, however, does not
necessarily determine who was the initial aggressor.

A person who reasonably believes that another is
about to use physical force upon him/her need not wait until
he/she is struck or wounded.

He/she may, in such circumstances, be the first to use physical
force, so long as he/she reasonably believed it was about to be used against
him/her [or someone else]. He/she is then not considered to
be the “initial aggressor,” even though he/she strikes the first
blow or inflicts the first wound.

http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/1-General/Defenses/CJI2d.Justification.Person.Physical_Force.pdf

Where did the fear start...Ignorance. Willfull, arrogant, deliberate ignorance.

The better informed you are, the closer to "Weapons Free" you are.

JodyH
03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
If you think to yourself "I wonder if lethal force is justified?", it's probably not.
If you think to yourself "I gotta shoot this SOB right now or he's gonna kill me/mine!", then your probably good to go hot.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Shellback
03-02-2012, 04:22 PM
The temerity of youth is often quelled by age, forethought and responsibilities to one's own family. That statement's not directed at anyone but is in fact what's happened in my own life. I am not averse to coming to the aid of someone in need and have done so on numerous occasions, even in the not so distant past. However, my primary responsibility in life now is the protection of my family and one can't feasibly do that while sitting in jail.

As a brash young man unaware of the life changing consequences of my actions I often acted without much forethought in my youth. Today, as a husband and father, I can't afford to be the one to intervene every time I see some minor disturbance and will call 911 to let the police deal with the aftermath. Typically if I'm out and about I will also have my family with me and their safety and security is paramount to anyone or anything that could possibly be happening that doesn't directly involve one of my own.

However, if in fact the fluid and ever-changing event transpiring before me will undoubtedly end in the demise of the innocent than it would be my moral imperative to take action. I would also hope that a judge and jury of my peers would be able to put themselves in that hypothetical situation and come to the same conclusions that I did when presented with the opportunity to act and save a life or to stand by and watch an innocent be slain.

peterb
03-02-2012, 04:28 PM
If you think to yourself "I gotta shoot this SOB right now or he's gonna kill me/mine!", then your probably good to go hot.

That depends on the events leading up to that level of threat. If it appears that you provoked or escalated the confrontation instead of trying to defuse it or disengage, it won't play out well afterwards.

Depending on your state, you may not have a "duty to retreat", but you do have an obligation to not make the situation worse.

TCinVA
03-02-2012, 04:32 PM
DETROIT – A World War II veteran said nobody helped him in the minutes after he was attacked and carjacked


I view that as a very different thing than interjecting myself into the middle of the carjacking. (Assuming I could recognize it as such as it was transpiring) If I see someone who is obviously injured I'll certainly try to summon help to the scene.

I've never walked/driven past an injured person or someone else I could recognize as being in obvious need of assistance without attempting to get them some help.

I'm just not going to be in a hurry to get myself involved in someone else's gunfight, you know?

HCM
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
I view that as a very different thing than interjecting myself into the middle of the carjacking. (Assuming I could recognize it as such as it was transpiring) If I see someone who is obviously injured I'll certainly try to summon help to the scene.

I've never walked/driven past an injured person or someone else I could recognize as being in obvious need of assistance without attempting to get them some help.

I'm just not going to be in a hurry to get myself involved in someone else's gunfight, you know?

Re violence in progress -Not in a hurry works for me. "Never" doesn't. Even as an LEO, circumstances such as the presence of my family affect my choices.

WDW
03-02-2012, 05:07 PM
That depends on the events leading up to that level of threat. If it appears that you provoked or escalated the confrontation instead of trying to defuse it or disengage, it won't play out well afterwards.

Depending on your state, you may not have a "duty to retreat", but you do have an obligation to not make the situation worse.

True. In TN even if lethal force is necessary, if you are the one who escalated the situation to that point, you are held liable for the death.

cutter
03-02-2012, 05:17 PM
Off the top of my head some situations where I would or have intervened in the aid of a third party.

A young man/woman attacking a elderly person.

Man getting physical with a woman,

Adult doing serious harm to a child,

Anyone continuing to attack someone who is obviously out of the fight.

A gang stomping someone on the ground who is out of the fight.

All of these are situation dependent.

Two guys or two girls having at it in the parking lot, well I'm gonna call the cops. Some big guy dragging grandma by her purse strap, I would probably step in.

A few months ago I was walking into a big box hardware store when I noticed a young couple having a low, but apparently heated conversation. When she moved away, the young man grabbed her arm and she attempted to pull away, but he yanked her back. Me and about three other men stopped what we were doing and headed that direction. I noticed several cell phones come out. When I asked her "Is everything OK" she said yes and moved closer to him. The young man glared, but did nothing. Me and the other men broke off and continued to walk into the store.

Thinking about it later, I thought it was one of my finer, but not smarter moments.

JHC
03-02-2012, 06:10 PM
One thing I think that often gets left out of these... how much does the gun actually change what you would do?Regardless of whether I'm carrying or not, if I have an honest belief that I'm about to watch someone get killed or raped, I don't know that I can not do something. I believe we have a duty to each other, to do what good we can with what comes into our immediate vicinity.

Doesn't mean I don't expect there to be a lot more situations where I don't have that hard belief, but just have a whole lot of worry... and then I honestly don't know what I do until it happens.

Because you're rarely actually getting to say "I'd step in if I saw someone in danger", you're saying "I'd step in if I'm 60% sure someone is in danger, but probably not 59%" - because you almost never get to be 100% sure.

I think those are great points. Which is why I desperately strive to never be weaponless. See the details of the Ohio HS coach in the recent school shooting. Unarmed, he hung it all out to break up the attack. Because those other kids are as precious to their parents as his kids are to him.

Excellent discussion. Thank you all. Mitchell, the fluidity points and legal concepts are really appreciated.

MattInFla
03-02-2012, 06:31 PM
A couple of mine:

Harming one of my dogs during a break-in. Florida law has some serious presumptions regarding intruders, namely that they are there to commit a forcible felony and a homeowner using deadly force to repel an intruder does so out of reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. If someone harms one of my dogs, it tells me that they are prepared to use force, and it's fight on. No need to issue a warning or converse at all at that point - see intruder, shoot intruder to ground.

Out of the house in a robbery scenario (in a store, bank, etc.). I have zero interest in getting into a firefight over money, particularly not some business' money. I'm not even going to consider intervening in a straightforward robbery. However, any attempt by the robbers to herd me into an office / vault / etc is almost certainly going to be the go signal. I have no illusions about surviving that, but I'm not going to be herded into an office and executed. If it comes to that, I'd rather die on my feet. Hopefully in that case you'll find me in a pile of brass, and one or more of theirs won't be attending the victory party.

Tamara
03-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Awesomeness.

I don't have anything to add to TCinVA's post, I would just like to note that it is one of the smartest things I've ever seen written on an internet gun forum. Or any internet forum, for that matter.

JodyH
03-02-2012, 08:45 PM
That depends on the events leading up to that level of threat. If it appears that you provoked or escalated the confrontation instead of trying to defuse it or disengage, it won't play out well afterwards.

Depending on your state, you may not have a "duty to retreat", but you do have an obligation to not make the situation worse.

True. In TN even if lethal force is necessary, if you are the one who escalated the situation to that point, you are held liable for the death.
We aren't catering to dumbasses on this forum.
So I'm going to post like I'm talking to intelligent, responsible adults instead of mouth breathing morons.

If you're the type of person who goes around and gets into fights while armed, then you probably won't be listening to sound advice anyway and jail is where you'll eventually end up no matter what advice you get.

:cool:

WDW
03-02-2012, 09:38 PM
We aren't catering to dumbasses on this forum.
So I'm going to post like I'm talking to intelligent, responsible adults instead of mouth breathing morons.

If you're the type of person who goes around and gets into fights while armed, then you probably won't be listening to sound advice anyway and jail is where you'll eventually end up no matter what advice you get.

:cool:

This is true Jody, but it can happen very subtlely too. Say for instance you get in a fender bender, get out and casually cuss the guy cause it was his fault and he was texting. So then he grabs a tire iron & comes at you & you fire. If it comes out that you started the whole thing with a verbalk barrage, in alot of instances you're liable. We all just need to make sure all of our I's are dotted and T's crossed. It takes so little to turn a justified shooting into a murder charge it's scary.

TGS
03-02-2012, 10:19 PM
We aren't catering to dumbasses on this forum.
So I'm going to post like I'm talking to intelligent, responsible adults instead of mouth breathing morons.

If you're the type of person who goes around and gets into fights while armed, then you probably won't be listening to sound advice anyway and jail is where you'll eventually end up no matter what advice you get.

:cool:

And if you're the type of person who is so completely assured of their zen-master status that you'll never get into a heated argument and tell someone to "fuck off," then I want to know your secret.

Good people who try to avoid trouble, and certainly don't look to start it, also end up in a situation they didn't plan on.

Example:

Two days ago I hear a car crash outside my house. I walk out and find a car smashed into a telephone pole, and then a lady laying next to it on the sidewalk and not moving. A bunch of other upstanding urban citizens are standing around doing nothing, while I calmly walk up to assist a pretty hot Guatemalan chick who is the only other person helping out of at least 8 (because hey, helping people gets you in hot water, just stand back and be safe!). I was expecting much worse and it wouldn't have bothered me (I used to be an EMT)....turns out the lady on the sidewalk was the driver, and she was okay on the outside. While talking to her, I figured out that she had been having problems related to hypoxia, and she had one of her headaches right before hitting the telephone pole which she claimed was caused by her suddenly losing her vision.

One of the upstanding urban citizens standing around doing nothing starts proclaiming that she must be drunk and/or on drugs, that's the only reason for this accident. He was proclaiming it, and it was obviously upsetting this extremely distressed driver. That ticked me off, so I walked over to him and asked him to knock it off, that it's not helping and he has no reason to start shit as it is. He keeps talking loudly, stating to all how it's the law that anyone who gets in an accident is automatically tested for drugs and alcohol, and all other sorts of ridiculous stuff. I walk back over and take care of the driver until the cops/medics arrive.

When they arrive, I step back. The man leans over to start telling me "how it is," for lack of a better term, and how he's only trying to be a good neighbor. I again reiterated that he's not god, has no right to go further distressing this lady without any reason, that he's being the opposite of a good community member, ect. Then, he says, "well I don't appreciate you getting up in my face...." At this point, I was fed up. This guy has NO idea of what "in your face" is, or at the very least I have a different opinion from life experience. I said, "in your face? fuck you" and walked away.

Scenario A: He shuts up and we go our seperate ways.

Scenario B: He gets pissed off from my comment that aggravated him, and he comes after me with a weapon. I splatter his upstanding urban citizen brain into the sidewalk with a 147gr HST.

Could me saying that have negatively impacted on the investigation and/or defense trial if it came to scenario B? Surely. In my mind, I was a concerned citizen who was actually helping someone in a traumatic incident, and told an asshole to shut his trap for trying to make the situation worse. I would hope it couldn't negatively impact my defense/legitimacy, and I certainly wasn't a mouth breathing moron seeking to get in a fight and end up in jail, but people like Mitchell gain material happiness from ruining my life....and they'll try to do so.

My point is that I wouldn't be so hard-lined about mouth breathing morons looking for trouble. I disagreed a lot in previous conversations with Nyeti, but the one thing I took from all his experiences is that bad stuff happens to good people. We all have the capability to become what you claim is only propagated by mouth breathing morons. The "There's no way it could ever happen to me" mentality is something I view as a danger in all walks of life.

Now, about that zen. What's your trick that raises you above human fallacy? I want them. I'll buy you a year's supply of beeritas for that zen. :cool:

JodyH
03-02-2012, 10:32 PM
When I carry I don't "go over and ask them to knock it off", or give them the old "F*** you!"
That's my zen secret.
I've worked in the oilfield for over 20 years, you learn when and how to keep your mouth shut under all kinds of stressful situations. Because if you spout off or post up at the wrong time you better be ready to fight on the spot.
With age comes wisdom.

TGS
03-02-2012, 10:38 PM
When I carry I don't "go over and ask them to knock it off".
That's my zen secret.

And if you're the one who's engaged?

Point:
Everyone has a button to push. Simply peacocking my chest and saying, "nope, won't happen to me, I read P-F.com and am a level headed person" isn't going to cut it for actual human interaction.

JodyH
03-02-2012, 10:50 PM
And if you're the one who's engaged?
Then I wouldn't be the aggressor in the situation now would I?

TGS
03-02-2012, 10:58 PM
Then I wouldn't be the aggressor in the situation now would I?

Yes, you could still be.

In any case, I'm not going to get into petty nonsensical arguments with you that rival BillT and the whole revolver conversation. Have a nice night.

ToddG
03-03-2012, 09:05 AM
I'd like to see some real case law examples of instances where someone saying "F#^& you!" and taking no further aggressive action was held liable when attacked by someone wielding a lethal weapon.

Beyond that, I have to agree with Jody that it's the CCWer's responsibility to avoid the problem as much as possible. I'm sure we all have buttons that can be pushed, but getting in someone's face in response to verbal taunting or annoying behavior is taking the first step toward what is probably a very unnecessary conflict. Sticks & stones and whatnot...

WDW
03-03-2012, 09:41 AM
I'd like to see some real case law examples of instances where someone saying "F#^& you!" and taking no further aggressive action was held liable when attacked by someone wielding a lethal weapon.

Beyond that, I have to agree with Jody that it's the CCWer's responsibility to avoid the problem as much as possible. I'm sure we all have buttons that can be pushed, but getting in someone's face in response to verbal taunting or annoying behavior is taking the first step toward what is probably a very unnecessary conflict. Sticks & stones and whatnot...

I don't personally think that cussing someone who then tried to attack you would actually result in your prosecution. But, per the word of the law in TN at least, it is possible. It is definitely the CCWer's responsibility. In this situation it is best to always follow Mitch's advice, Keep your mouth shut before, during, and after a shooting.

ToddG
03-03-2012, 09:47 AM
But, per the word of the law in TN at least, it is possible.[/B]

Is this based on a layman's interpretation or is it reflected in actual case law?

Can you provide a link to the statute? Links to any case law where it's been interpreted would also be very helpful.

WDW
03-03-2012, 11:17 AM
Is this based on a layman's interpretation or is it reflected in actual case law?

Can you provide a link to the statute? Links to any case law where it's been interpreted would also be very helpful.
http://nashvilleattorneynow.com/criminal-defense/nashville-criminal-lawyers-explain-self-defense-in-tennessee-when-can-i-use-deadly-force-for-protection/

Lastly, before providing the definitions of Residence, Business, Dwelling, and Vehicle, these are the specifically listed times that the use or even threat Deadly Force is NOT permitted:
1.If the person using force consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other individual;
2.If the person using force provoked the other individual’s use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless the person using force abandons the encounter or clearly communicates to the other the intent to do so, and the other person nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the person.
3.To resist a halt at a roadblock, arrest, search, or stop and frisk that the person using force knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, unless the law enforcement officer uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest, search, stop and frisk, or halt; and the person using force reasonably believes that the force is immediately necessary to protect against the law enforcement officer’s use or attempted use of greater force than necessary

This is also emphasized in the TN HCP class. The instructor made it clear that you should in no way (verbally, nonverbally, physically) provoke the other person or persons. Obviously the situation will dictate, but say for instance you use a racial slur and that person comes at you with the first thing they can grab and you shoot them, even though it was in self defense, you still provoked the initial attack.

Tamara
03-03-2012, 11:23 AM
In light of this thread, I found this particular case (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:hHDvPbtKk1YJ:statecasefiles.justia.com.s3. amazonaws.com/documents/tennessee/court-of-criminal-appeals/MathisBrian.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjJmWyRC5C7F8JsIJG8cjpFJGzFPehLeRvFlPhE mH8tZ-5sZU4WbpxN0mDUskci833Yhccuu_kTVUWMvifeEYO_FbaIbIVM hL_-x62NfcErUGPi3OFthV69zuFJ4pQ01g61bA7W&sig=AHIEtbRLiYZLmyZR0MPNGRlvre3O75JsJA&pli=1) interesting. I mean, according to the defendant, all he did was shake his fist at the guy and tell him to "Slow the BLEEP down!", when all of a sudden, and for no reason...

TGS
03-03-2012, 11:28 AM
I'd like to see some real case law examples of instances where someone saying "F#^& you!" and taking no further aggressive action was held liable when attacked by someone wielding a lethal weapon.


Todd,

I haven't watched it recently so I can't be sure, but what about the one case in Tom Given's DVD on shootings? There was a man who was gassing up an expensive car and told some dudes to get lost because he didn't like how they were eyeing his car. When they went to tell him otherwise, he did the reasonable thing and ran across the street to disengage the situation...at which time they pursued him and because of a disparity of force he fired on them.

He got jail time for causing the confrontation by telling them to get lost. To my un-lawschooled eyes, that seems relevant to what we're discussing here. I'm interested to hear your further thoughts on the subject. If you don't have the DVD, I'd be more than happy to mail my copy to you.

Thanks,

TGS

WDW
03-03-2012, 11:32 AM
In light of this thread, I found this particular case (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:hHDvPbtKk1YJ:statecasefiles.justia.com.s3. amazonaws.com/documents/tennessee/court-of-criminal-appeals/MathisBrian.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjJmWyRC5C7F8JsIJG8cjpFJGzFPehLeRvFlPhE mH8tZ-5sZU4WbpxN0mDUskci833Yhccuu_kTVUWMvifeEYO_FbaIbIVM hL_-x62NfcErUGPi3OFthV69zuFJ4pQ01g61bA7W&sig=AHIEtbRLiYZLmyZR0MPNGRlvre3O75JsJA&pli=1) interesting. I mean, according to the defendant, all he did was shake his fist at the guy and tell him to "Slow the BLEEP down!", when all of a sudden, and for no reason...

That was a good link. Shows how a simple gesture and getting a little carried away can turn self defense into a criminal conviction

Shellback
03-03-2012, 11:56 AM
I haven't watched it recently so I can't be sure, but what about the one case in Tom Given's DVD on shootings?

I don't see any DVD's listed on their website. Where did you purchase it at? If Todd doesn't take you up on the offer I'd like to borrow it and will return it with the shipping costs after I watch it.

JHC
03-03-2012, 01:36 PM
Good stuff. As Jody noted earlier. There is no place for mouthing off when carrying a gun.

barstoolguru
03-03-2012, 03:46 PM
you say you don't want to get involved ... this woman is glad that this man did


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM

Shellback
03-03-2012, 03:49 PM
That video is an extreme example and I think most of us would not hesitate to do the right thing.

WDW
03-03-2012, 06:28 PM
No one is saying they do not "want" to get involved. I doubt there are few on this board who in their heart don't wish they could always do the right thing and help someone. But, as has been stated before, "rightness" is too subjective to rush into a situation and act on a 3rd parties behalf in most cases. I did not even watch that video because it does not matter. A "victim", after you injur or kill her "attacker" could just as easily turn on you and say you assaulted or murdered her husband, brother, boyfriend, etc. There are far too many unknowns almost all of the time. But, while you're sitting in a cell with pending or actual criminal charges, waiting & wondering why the hell you are there becaue you "helped", at least you'll have a warm & fuzzy knowing you did the "right" thing.

jslaker
03-03-2012, 06:47 PM
However, any attempt by the robbers to herd me into an office / vault / etc is almost certainly going to be the go signal. I have no illusions about surviving that, but I'm not going to be herded into an office and executed. If it comes to that, I'd rather die on my feet. Hopefully in that case you'll find me in a pile of brass, and one or more of theirs won't be attending the victory party.

My concern here is that if the situation has escalated to the point where the robbers are actively trying to herd people, you may have already lost your chance to take initiative and control.

barstoolguru
03-03-2012, 06:49 PM
A "victim", after you injur or kill her "attacker" could just as easily turn on you and say you assaulted or murdered her husband, brother, boyfriend, etc. There are far too many unknowns almost all of the time

I Agree with you that someone can turn on you ( been there and suffered from it) but we are not talking about some drunks having an argument at the bar, we are talking about someone with a knife ,gun, piece of glass or even a screwdriver (warrants pulling a gun) that is going/doing a violent act against another.

Even if the victim turns on you it doesn't matter because they had a weapon with intent and that alone is going to support your actions. I know of no one that stands/stood up and said pulled a knife on me and threatened me but was only joking.

Be the adult and stand back and let things take their course when it’s something minor but to stand there and say well this is going to cost me money and not be “A MAN” is foul by it self.


edit: we are our brothers keeper

Coyotesfan97
03-03-2012, 08:14 PM
Arizona's Disorderly Conduct law has a specific subsection for what's termed "fighting words". I'll bet other states have pretty similar wordings somewhere in their criminal statutes.

To quote: Az Title 13 13-2904a3. A. A person commits disorderly conduct if, with intent to disturb the peace or quiet of a neighborhood, family or person, or with knowledge of doing so, such person: Uses abusive or offensive language or gestures to any person present in a manner likely to provoke immediate physical retaliation by such person.

Could that be used against you if you got into a verbal altercation that you started that ended in lethal force being used? It'll definitely be an aggravating factor.

MDS
03-03-2012, 08:26 PM
I have to side with the cautious folks on this. It's got to be justifiable, which isn't always easy to judge - and just as importantly, it has to be made to be seen as justifiable, even if other witnesses describe a different series of events than what you recall. It occurs to me that if I had clear documentation of events from my viewpoint (e.g., audio and video from one of those eyeball-cams Caleb uses when he shoots,) I might be bolder.

Even then, what would I do if I saw a young hispanic male pull an old man off his bicycle, tugging on the old man's belongings? Here's a relevant facebook post from a friend of mine a couple of hours ago:


So this old man stole cosmetics from walgreens got on his bike when the undercover security grab him... Well 4 guys from the st waiting for the light to change saw the young guy pull the old man off the bike n they got out of the car n jumped on the UC lol they kept yelling "get off the old man" n he kept saying he's a thief I'm a security guard well nicky had to call the cops n 7 cop cars came.... It was crazy. Great day indeed Lmfao

I reckon my friend, and her friend nicky, were the only characters in this story that didn't have some 'splaining to do. The "4 guys from the st" may well be singing the Good Samaritan Blues tonight...thanking the Fates, all the while, that they weren't CCWing. No way around it, this sort of thing is a tough call.

barstoolguru
03-03-2012, 09:39 PM
Arizona's Disorderly Conduct law has a specific subsection for what's termed "fighting words". I'll bet other states have pretty similar wordings somewhere in their criminal statutes.

To quote: Az Title 13 13-2904a3. A. A person commits disorderly conduct if, with intent to disturb the peace or quiet of a neighborhood, family or person, or with knowledge of doing so, such person: Uses abusive or offensive language or gestures to any person present in a manner likely to provoke immediate physical retaliation by such person.

Could that be used against you if you got into a verbal altercation that you started that ended in lethal force being used? It'll definitely be an aggravating factor.

A punch in the mouth-sure- to pull a gun;no way. if someone pulled a gun they would be on a sleep over downtown with out the s'mores

JHC
03-03-2012, 11:24 PM
I Agree with you that someone can turn on you ( been there and suffered from it) but we are not talking about some drunks having an argument at the bar, we are talking about someone with a knife ,gun, piece of glass or even a screwdriver (warrants pulling a gun) that is going/doing a violent act against another.

Even if the victim turns on you it doesn't matter because they had a weapon with intent and that alone is going to support your actions. I know of no one that stands/stood up and said pulled a knife on me and threatened me but was only joking.

Be the adult and stand back and let things take their course when it’s something minor but to stand there and say well this is going to cost me money and not be “A MAN” is foul by it self.


edit: we are our brothers keeper

Highly relevent video you posted. Those incidents happen every day somewhere. And not just in bad parts of town. She was lucky that the gun carrier was truly "old school".

BigT
03-04-2012, 02:12 AM
In her last year of high school a friend of my wife was carjacked on a public road. The pieces of shit then took her to a veld (an open field kind of thing) where the three proceeded to gang rape her. This not being enough for them when they where finished they carried on with a broken glass bottle. This is not an uncommon occurence here.

I think its safe to assume no one is going to blame this 18 year old girl for not being armed, or for leaving the house without the company of an older male relative.

So yes there are times I may intervene. If someones getting carjacked and they are simply thrown out the car it will probably just involve calling the cops. But if shes getting dragged into the car it may require someone getting shot. Yes its dangerous and there is a risk. And yes I may have to do some explaning , or even face charges. I accept that reality. I also accept the reality that I can explain and justify my actions. And that I will be able to look at my face in the mirror the next morning.

This is not to say I have any interest in playing cop and jumping into every fight I come across. Far from it. Simply that we are adults and are able to see that some situations are potentially far worse for the victim if no one helps than they are for the person who helps.

I have had the great displeasure of being in a couple of gunfights and would be very happy to avoid anymore. So please don't be under the mistaken idea I am so mall ninja wannabee who thinks gunfights are cool and romantic. But I do understand that they arent the great mysterious evemts they are sometimes made out to be.

Unfortunately sometimes, some people need to be shot, and sometimes you are the only one around to do it.

cdunn
03-04-2012, 06:06 AM
Intervention in 3rd party conflicts is an incredibly dangerous thing.

Suffice it to say that unless it is an extremely clear set of circumstances (think uniformed police officer in imminent danger of losing his life) I'm going to be nothing more than a good witness. I'm not my brothers keeper, I'm not a police officer, and my daughter needs a father.

this for me,I can call 911 pretty quick though.

JHC
03-04-2012, 07:50 AM
In her last year of high school a friend of my wife was carjacked on a public road. The pieces of shit then took her to a veld (an open field kind of thing) where the three proceeded to gang rape her. This not being enough for them when they where finished they carried on with a broken glass bottle. This is not an uncommon occurence here.

I think its safe to assume no one is going to blame this 18 year old girl for not being armed, or for leaving the house without the company of an older male relative.

So yes there are times I may intervene. If someones getting carjacked and they are simply thrown out the car it will probably just involve calling the cops. But if shes getting dragged into the car it may require someone getting shot. Yes its dangerous and there is a risk. And yes I may have to do some explaning , or even face charges. I accept that reality. I also accept the reality that I can explain and justify my actions. And that I will be able to look at my face in the mirror the next morning.

This is not to say I have any interest in playing cop and jumping into every fight I come across. Far from it. Simply that we are adults and are able to see that some situations are potentially far worse for the victim if no one helps than they are for the person who helps.

I have had the great displeasure of being in a couple of gunfights and would be very happy to avoid anymore. So please don't be under the mistaken idea I am so mall ninja wannabee who thinks gunfights are cool and romantic. But I do understand that they arent the great mysterious evemts they are sometimes made out to be.

Unfortunately sometimes, some people need to be shot, and sometimes you are the only one around to do it.

Point made as well as it's possible to make it IMO.

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 10:57 AM
I think some folks are confusing two different issues. The original post was "does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?" That to me is a very different issue than "intervening in a situation."

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 11:12 AM
But, while you're sitting in a cell with pending or actual criminal charges, waiting & wondering why the hell you are there becaue you "helped", at least you'll have a warm & fuzzy knowing you did the "right" thing.
That is worth remembering. While not an intervention case the Alphonse Gallo case down in Florida is worth remembering. 5 months sitting in jail and lost his job, based on what the judge ruled as "All of his actions were made in response to a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm," and should not even be prosecuted.

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 11:31 AM
I Agree with you that someone can turn on you ( been there and suffered from it) but we are not talking about some drunks having an argument at the bar, we are talking about someone with a knife ,gun, piece of glass or even a screwdriver (warrants pulling a gun) that is going/doing a violent act against another.

Even if the victim turns on you it doesn't matter because they had a weapon with intent and that alone is going to support your actions. I know of no one that stands/stood up and said pulled a knife on me and threatened me but was only joking.

Be the adult and stand back and let things take their course when it’s something minor but to stand there and say well this is going to cost me money and not be “A MAN” is foul by it self.


edit: we are our brothers keeper
I'm not my brothers keeper, and while it may be foul by itself it has nothing to do with being "A MAN." Being "A MAN" includes recognizing the obligation you take on to your own family. Unless someone is willing to step up and support another person's family with at least a salary replacement, much less all the non-monetary items that go with family life, I question whether they have the right to complain about another declining to put themselves out on a limb.

barstoolguru
03-04-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm not my brothers keeper, and while it may be foul by itself it has nothing to do with being "A MAN." Being "A MAN" includes recognizing the obligation you take on to your own family



We talk about the line in the sand and where ours are. To me being a man does not stop at the family but extends to the community. Our soldiers are "men" and fight to keep people they don't know free and land they don't own from being invaded from foreign countries. People volunteer every day to help in soup lines and good wills, blood banks. The Red Cross all part of a community.... all brothers’ keepers.

To get involved in someone else fight or problems is a "call" decision but at sometime gun or no gun it might be the right thing to do. Someone should have been this man’s brother but no one stepped up to the plate because they did not want to 'get involved'



http://news.yahoo.com/wwii-vet-says-nobody-helped-carjacked-212827755.html

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 12:24 PM
We talk about the line in the sand and where ours are. To me being a man does not stop at the family but extends to the community. Our soldiers are "men" and fight to keep people they don't know free and land they don't own from being invaded from foreign countries. People volunteer every day to help in soup lines and good wills, blood banks. The Red Cross all part of a community.... all brothers’ keepers.
Soldiers volunteer to take on that duty as a career choice, and are compensated for that choice. Very different from what we are discussing. And last that I heard joining the Red Cross or working in a soup line had nothing to do with deciding to use deadly force and/or put your life and personal resources on the line. Again, very different from deciding to use deadly force in defense of others.


To get involved in someone else fight or problems is a "call" decision but at sometime gun or no gun it might be the right thing to do. Someone should have been this man’s brother but no one stepped up to the plate because they did not want to 'get involved'



http://news.yahoo.com/wwii-vet-says-nobody-helped-carjacked-212827755.html
As mentioned above, getting involved is very different from deciding to use deadly force. I might suggest that if one is going to argue that someone else should risk their resources that person should be willing to risk their own in exchange. So how about it? Anone willing to put the equivalent of $75K a year for the next 30 years in escrow for the family of someone else should that person lose it all helping a stranger???

JHC
03-04-2012, 12:43 PM
Of course not David! Point taken. OTOH, that would really eliminate the much of the concept of sacrifice. Guarantees of safety sort of queer most of life.

JDM
03-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Doing community service, and working towards improving the lives of people around you and killing someone on behalf of a stranger are on opposite sides of the planet.

I regularly volunteer at a food bank, and I have worked for the only community blood bank in NM for three years. Clearly I believe in helping those around me.

To suggest part of being a man (what is that?) involves (unnecessarily) injecting myself in a situation that could make my daughter an orphan is... insanity. It is not my job to ensure strangers safety. I don't carry a gun to help anyone but myself, and those most dear to me. I am not a policeman, and I have absolutely no desire to pretend to be one.

While I appreciate the idea of helping strangers get a meal, or live through surgery, I put myself before anyone else. If helping a complete stranger, regardless of the situation, has the very serious potential to destroy my life, I'm not doing it.

JHC
03-04-2012, 12:49 PM
I think some folks are confusing two different issues. The original post was "does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?" That to me is a very different issue than "intervening in a situation."

The whole thread is a confusion of two different issues. Great observation. The OP laid out the line in the sand question but also posed, would you assist a 3rd party in a situation that could lead to the use of deadly force. Then when some (me) answered in the affirmative we started a debate to counterpoint that point of view and the 1st and probably most on point - point was left behind.

So returning to that 1st question: no, I don't. The line is not explicitly clear. It may be threat of violence in one situation or actual violence in another. Non lethal violence against an unknown 3rd party would be evaluated (by me) much differently than ANY violence against my child for example. Then within a continuum of violence there are wide differences. Nope. No firm line in the sand sort of thing.

JHC
03-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Doing community service, and working towards improving the lives of people around you and killing someone on behalf of a stranger are on opposite sides of the planet. I regularly volunteer at a food bank, and I have worked for the only community blood bank in NM for three years. Clearly I believe in helping those around me.

To suggest part of being a man (what is that?) involves (unnecessarily) injecting myself in a situation that could make my daughter an orphan is... insanity. It is not my job to ensure strangers safety. I don't carry a gun to help anyone but myself, and those most dear to me. I am not a policeman, and I have absolutely no desire to pretend to be one.

While I appreciate the idea of helping strangers get a meal, or live through surgery, I put myself before anyone else. If helping a complete stranger, regardless of the situation, has the very serious potential to destroy my life, I'm not doing it.

Oh man, you made a lot arguably valid points there but the bolded section is not one of them. The stranger victim is not the key consideration. It should be what degree of monster did the samaritan just put in the ground. Killing one that seriously needed being put down is absolutely doing community service.

barstoolguru
03-04-2012, 01:07 PM
OK let’s put the shoe on the other foot; David just got into an altercation with some punks and one of them pulls a gun and shoots David. David is laying there and bleeding, the punk is going through your pockets. There is a ccw permit holder watching the whole thing go down. As he is watching he thinks should I help David and chance getting shot or walk away because I have a family? I owe David nothing and if I get shot who is going to take care of my family?

I love the saying: a coward dies a thousand deaths; a hero but one

here are some people that got involved;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWTQRXF4qFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDs-yGTdPFo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBlelqDE1RI

JDM
03-04-2012, 01:13 PM
Oh man, you made a lot arguably valid points there but the bolded section is not one of them. The stranger victim is not the key consideration. It should be what degree of monster did the samaritan just put in the ground. Killing one that seriously needed being put down is absolutely doing community service.

Many, many goblins need killing, and it is a joyous event when a particularly foul goblin ends up dead because he picked the wrong guy to violently assault.

That said, I'm not going to be putting my name on the list to shoot people anytime soon. I would hate to be forced to kill another human being, regardless of their personal level of evil. That is a burden I'd rather not shoulder. Not to say I'm not absolutely prepared, and willing to do it, but I cannot imagine anything more terrible than killing another person.

TGS
03-04-2012, 01:38 PM
I cannot imagine anything more terrible than killing another person.

I can imagine a few things.

JHC
03-04-2012, 01:45 PM
Many, many goblins need killing, and it is a joyous event when a particularly foul goblin ends up dead because he picked the wrong guy to violently assault.

That said, I'm not going to be putting my name on the list to shoot people anytime soon. I would hate to be forced to kill another human being, regardless of their personal level of evil. That is a burden I'd rather not shoulder. Not to say I'm not absolutely prepared, and willing to do it, but I cannot imagine anything more terrible than killing another person.

That's fine. That wasn't the point made however. It was very strictly a counterpoint to the idea that killing a soul eater was the opposite of community service; as if the world is somehow diminished for being rid of a murdering rapist for example.

JDM
03-04-2012, 01:46 PM
That's fine. That wasn't the point made however. It was very strictly a counterpoint to the idea that killing a soul eater was the opposite of community service; as if the world is somehow diminished for being rid of a murdering rapist for example.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 03:23 PM
Of course not David! Point taken. OTOH, that would really eliminate the much of the concept of sacrifice. Guarantees of safety sort of queer most of life.
Yeah, but I look at it as going beyond the concept of self sacrifice. Self sacrifice is all well and good in a vacuum, but in reality my decision to sacrifice also forces my family to sacrifice without any input on their part. I don't mind giving up my guarantee of safety, but I also made a committment to take care of their safety.

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 03:31 PM
OK let’s put the shoe on the other foot; David just got into an altercation with some punks and one of them pulls a gun and shoots David. David is laying there and bleeding, the punk is going through your pockets. There is a ccw permit holder watching the whole thing go down. As he is watching he thinks should I help David and chance getting shot or walk away because I have a family? I owe David nothing and if I get shot who is going to take care of my family?
How will getting into a shootout with the punk at this time change anything for David?


I love the saying: a coward dies a thousand deaths; a hero but one
A rather questionable sentiment, but even granting it who is the hero: the person who dies/get put in prison helping some stranger or the person who decides to continue to support their family? Is there much that is more heroic than taking care of your own and ensuring they have a good life?


here are some people that got involved;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWTQRXF4qFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDs-yGTdPFo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBlelqDE1RI
Don't have a youtube, but a while back I attended a wedding of a friends daughter. He wasn't there, he got killed trying to prevent a robbery. Nobody talked about what a good thing it was that he got killed fighting a BG. Lots of folks talked about how tragic it was that her father wasn't there to give the bride away. He got involved.

digiadaamore
03-04-2012, 03:34 PM
Heres a point not really discussed yet. I consider myself to be the embodiment of what is being called "a man" as such i feel as though i would be compelled to help anyone a t a disadvantage be it a woman, a child, or an elderly individual, however my first objective is to make it home every night, as such i WOULD NOT risk my safety for another individual who is in distress because they actively chose to not be "a man" someone who could carry, who could train, who could have left the house that day with the right mindset but did not. that is on no one but them. i think every able bodied individual should be "a man" and there was a time they were, but that time is gone and they made their choice.

JHC
03-04-2012, 03:37 PM
Nobody talked about what a good thing it was that he got killed fighting a BG. Lots of folks talked about how tragic it was that her father wasn't there to give the bride away. He got involved.

That's a pity. They should have. I just don't understand some folks.

barstoolguru
03-04-2012, 04:13 PM
Don't have a youtube, but a while back I attended a wedding of a friends daughter. He wasn't there, he got killed trying to prevent a robbery. Nobody talked about what a good thing it was that he got killed fighting a BG. Lots of folks talked about how tragic it was that her father wasn't there to give the bride away. He got involved.

sorry they don't but we will... here's to your friend for being "a man" and standing up (stands up and tilts my head and talks a minute) god bless him

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 05:56 PM
That's a pity. They should have. I just don't understand some folks.
I do understand them. I wouldn't stand around suggesting it was a good thing either. "Gee Sandy, isn't it cool that your Daddy got killed fighting a BG! That is so much better than having him walk you down the aisle, isn't it?"
I'm sure everyone there who knew the story was sympathetic, I doubt anyone there who knew the story thought it was the preferred ending.

JHC
03-04-2012, 06:03 PM
I do understand them. I wouldn't stand around suggesting it was a good thing either. "Gee Sandy, isn't it cool that your Daddy got killed fighting a BG! That is so much better than having him walk you down the aisle, isn't it?"
I'm sure everyone there who knew the story was sympathetic, I doubt anyone there who knew the story thought it was the preferred ending.

We toast fallen heroes in this country every day. Don't you? When you do, do you do it mockingly? Of course not. So what's with this?

When you answer that, as I expect you might, don't take offense if I don't reply further. To your earlier point, too far off the original intent of the OP.

David Armstrong
03-04-2012, 07:33 PM
We toast fallen heroes in this country every day. Don't you? When you do, do you do it mockingly? Of course not. So what's with this?
This was a wedding where the father was not there to give a way the bride. and FWIW I really question the label of "hero" being applied as loosely as it is today. And I doubt anyone was mocking him. My point is that nobody at the wedding felt the actions leading to his death in any way offset the fact that he was not there.


When you answer that, as I expect you might, don't take offense if I don't reply further. To your earlier point, too far off the original intent of the OP.
No problem, thread drift is somewhat inevitiable in discussions like this due to the variables that come into play in drawing that line in the sand. Which is why I think discussions like this are beneficial. Way too often we get wrapped up in that "hero" image and assume everything will go right and come out good for us. Thinking about the down-side in the cold hard llight might help that decision making process when under stress. I stole a quote from someone, can't remember who, but it seems applicable:
"Unfortunately, when a person's mind is fully in movie hero mode, there's just no room for a discussion on long term home-based hospice for newly minted paraplegics."

TCinVA
03-04-2012, 09:00 PM
NVM. Bad idea.

Tamara
03-04-2012, 09:35 PM
Heres a point not really discussed yet. I consider myself to be the embodiment of what is being called "a man"

Since I'm not, I feel free to engage my brain and treat each incident as the unique occurrence it is. ;)

digiadaamore
03-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Since I'm not, I feel free to engage my brain and treat each incident as the unique occurrence it is. ;)

Of note if you read the end of my post i say able bodied individual, not male , i dont think being what is the notion of "a man" has anything to do with being a male adult. Based on what ive read of your posts you certainly qualify, youve taken on the responsibility of seeing the world for what it is and being prepared for its consequences when it inevitably goes wrong.

Johnkard
03-05-2012, 04:37 AM
I first fired a handgun when I was 6 (and I've been using and carrying ever since.), I have trained extensively in martial arts for 13 years (2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do), but I have never been in the military or on a police force (and I am not qualified to be at present). Most situations that I might come across involving deadly force, I WILL (and have been trained) to handle without ever touching a weapon.

My philosophy is that I cannot control the actions of those around me, I can only truly control my own. Thus, it is my responsibility to do as little harm as possible through my conduct, rather than to "prevent" as much harm as possible. Giving a mugger your wallet, ignoring idol threats and insults, and standing down from a fight are some basic obligations we should all have to prevent escalation.

I will only ever draw a weapon off the range when I intend to use it to kill a person and take the full brunt of their death on my conscience (a moral burden I hope never to experience). I will draw with intent to kill, but that intent will vanish the instant the target stands down.

My line in the sand must include each of these components:

1. The situation is not something I can handle without a weapon (i.e. BG with a GUN drawn).

2. I understand what's going on, and it isn't somebody else's business (it isn't my job or obligation to breach my neighbor's house to stop a domestic dispute. I am not a police officer)

3. If I don't personally (meaning I'm the only one who can) take action, somebody is going to be killed, maimed, or raped (robbery, carjacking, petty crime, etc...my life is more important).

4. I have loudly and clearly announced my presence and intent to use lethal force before putting my finger on the trigger.

In addition, I will always give a situation the benefit of doubt, and will defer to someone with higher qualification.


From the fourth point onward, I will do as my training dictates to neutralize the target.


(If i sound egotistical or patronizing, I'm sorry. I felt the need to write it out on a public forum so as to clarify for my own benefit.)

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 10:22 AM
4. I have loudly and clearly announced my presence and intent to use lethal force before putting my finger on the trigger.


great you have training but you might want to rethink this; it will get you killed

Mitchell, Esq.
03-05-2012, 10:24 AM
I stole a quote from someone, can't remember who, but it seems applicable:
"Unfortunately, when a person's mind is fully in movie hero mode, there's just no room for a discussion on long term home-based hospice for newly minted paraplegics."

That is an intolerable drift in a firearm based day dream...I mean, discussion of tactial realitites...

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 11:48 AM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

JHC
03-05-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

I have. No further details will be forthcoming however.

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Roger that and none needed. Just curious about everyone's reference points. Personally I've found that real life has prevented me from having a defined "line in the sand" except in the most conceptual strategic sense.

Sparks2112
03-05-2012, 12:14 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

Unfortunately.

JV_
03-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Personally I've found that real life has prevented me from having a defined "line in the sand" except in the most conceptual strategic sense.Thanks for confirming my suspicion. Real life is too dynamic, too many shades of gray, to try and draw black and white lines.

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 12:24 PM
JV let me qualify that my statement is my subjective opinion based on my experiences and certainly should not be construed as something one should or shouldn't do. Just being expository.....

Regardless of S.M.E. being under my name that's a bestowment from Todd and not something I think of myself as.

JV_
03-05-2012, 12:28 PM
JV let me qualify that my statement is my subjective opinion based on my experiences and certainly should not be construed as something one should or shouldn't do. Just being expository.....Understood.

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 01:02 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

Agreed with the other poster that when it happens (me too) that you don't want to talk about it over the internet. But to even think that someone would not pull the trigger when needing be is an understatement. One thing the internet (news) has taught us is that people will use deadly force when cornered or confronted with a situation.

When you understand the laws and have the mindset to do so it makes the decision to do it much easier to make.

WDW
03-05-2012, 01:05 PM
I think the point of this thread has drifted a bit. I am not implying that you can predetermine your actions for every possible situation. But, there are some people out there right now with a gun on their hip, who if someone ran past them carrying a stolen purse they would straight up shoot them in the back and think that that was perfectly ok. They have not put one second of thought into the lawful application of deadly force. I just think it would be helpful if people had a guidline personally established of when they would/would not use deadly force. Of course there are always going to be exceptions and what if's, but it really is possible to leave your house with general, well established, thouht out, criteria for when you will and will not use deadly force. Mine is if I or my family are in immediate threat of death or serious injury, and that's it. If there are other options such as driving/running away that I percieve will give me a better chance of survival that's what I will do.

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 01:42 PM
I think the point of this thread has drifted a bit. I am not implying that you can predetermine your actions for every possible situation. But, there are some people out there right now with a gun on their hip, who if someone ran past them carrying a stolen purse they would straight up shoot them in the back and think that that was perfectly ok. They have not put one second of thought into the lawful application of deadly force.

But see in some states like Texas it is allowable to shoot a fleeing felon in the back after a crime has been committed. This is why I say making sure you understand the laws in your state. What people need to understand is that when you do it is not just going to go away fast. There is going to be some form of legal repercussions if the shooting is questionable.

RoyGBiv
03-05-2012, 01:54 PM
I did..

David Armstrong
03-05-2012, 02:01 PM
That is an intolerable drift in a firearm based day dream...I mean, discussion of tactial realitites...
:D QFT!

David Armstrong
03-05-2012, 02:02 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?
I have, more than once.

David Armstrong
03-05-2012, 02:09 PM
But see in some states like Texas it is allowable to shoot a fleeing felon in the back after a crime has been committed. This is why I say making sure you understand the laws in your state. What people need to understand is that when you do it is not just going to go away fast. There is going to be some form of legal repercussions if the shooting is questionable.
FWIW, there are often legal or other repercussions even if the shooting isn't so questionable.

Johnkard
03-05-2012, 02:40 PM
great you have training but you might want to rethink this; it will get you killed

Hmm, you're right, I should clarify that one. My intention with that point is to imply that my presence and intention is known to the Target (I do not want to get involved in something without warning only to find out that I just shot an undercover cop). In my mind, that divides into two types of scenarios:

1. I already have my weapon drawn and sighted as I warn a BG that is not paying attention to me. Once my weapon is pointed at them, I trust that can move my finger to the trigger faster than they can turn and shoot me.

2. The BG already knows I am there because I'm the one he's trying to kill or the BG points a gun at me. I never intend to play chicken with guns. If somebody points a gun at my face, I will have Zero hesitation about taking them down. In this situation I would not feel obligated to loudly and clearly declare redundant information.


In addition, I do believe that a loud authoritative declaration can help to disarm a lot of tense situations. If I can do something with my voice rather than a bullet, I'd consider that a good thing. Like the old English proverb "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

As for the separate question of experience, I've got a lot of shooting background, I've had a few guns pointed at me, and I've done hand to hand in some untenable situations, But I have yet to point a gun at someone with intent to pull the trigger. I'm not a cop or a soldier, so I think that's normal.

(again with the long post, I apologize to those who feel any animosity towards my presumptuous commentary, again, I have never properly written any of this down, and I consider it important to do so now.)

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 03:27 PM
FW
IW, there are often legal or other repercussions even if the shooting isn't so questionable.

I can't speak for other states but texas really does protect it's citizens with strong laws in property and self defence. I had a friend that back in the 80's shot a man in self defense and the cop talked him through it as what to say and that was it he never heard a word about anything after that night. rare maybe but not all shooting need legal advise or go to a grand jury just be carefull what you say and who you say it to



2. The BG already knows I am there because I'm the one he's trying to kill or the BG points a gun at me. I never intend to play chicken with guns. If somebody points a gun at my face, I will have Zero hesitation about taking them down. In this situation I would not feel obligated to loudly and clearly declare redundant information.

Here is a video that I watch from time to time because it is so real.... in a "what if" ....like I said I would think twice about announcing your intention. As far as a undercover cop, this is very unlikely because you would have access the situation as far as what is happening


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw6RIGS4T4I&list=PL631FBA4D8819D469&index=21&feature=plpp_video

joshs
03-05-2012, 03:30 PM
But see in some states like Texas it is allowable to shoot a fleeing felon in the back after a crime has been committed.

The law in Texas is not this simple. The Texas law that I believe you are referring to provides:

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Note that you must meet (1), (2), and (3) before using deadly force under this section. This provides an excellent example of why a "line in the sand" isn't appropriate. The law requires reasonableness. What is reasonable will almost always require a fact intensive analysis. Unless your "line in the sand" involves a multi-factored analysis, it is likely to come up short, at least as far as the law is concerned, in some cases.

BigT
03-05-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?


Yup.

HCM
03-05-2012, 04:08 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

Yes. On more than one occasion.

PS - You and JV are spot on about the dynamic - shades of gray nature of what is "reasonable".

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 04:27 PM
Thank you josh for pointing out the law, it is always good to throw in a reminder and not allow the facts to be twisted. We as CCWers need to understand the law and when it applies to us. LEARN YOUR STATE LAWS

to those that ask "have you ever drawn a gun on another" there is a lot of people that have never and in hopes never will but it the heat of the moment they have to may they find the strength and wisdom to do the right thing when necessary.

ToddG
03-05-2012, 05:29 PM
re: "fighting words" etc., as the statute quoted pointed out there is almost always an exception for someone who makes a good faith effort to disengage once lethal violence becomes imminent. I'm still not aware of any case where someone said some bad words and, when his "victim" pulled a gun/knife, it was found illegal for him to defend himself.

re: line in the sand/"BE A MAN" ... Folks, come on. We're better than that. If you personally think that it's your job to play Robin Hood to every damsel in distress, or you believe that your only responsibility in life is to get home to your fridge full of Budweiser, say so, explain why, and move on. Let's not get so stupid as to question one another's penis size over these things.

There was a recent case of an ATF agent shot and killed by an off duty police officer in NY. The ATF agent was present during an armed robbery of a convenience store and tried to intercede as the robber exited the store. In the process, he ended up rolling around on the ground, gun out, with the criminal. The off duty cop saw them wrestling over the gun and tried to pull the guy on top (ATF agent) off the guy on bottom. Unfortunately, off duty cop had his snubbie in his hand and his finger on the trigger, and as he grabbed at the guy on top he had a sympathetic muscle contraction, firing a round basically from armpit to armpit, killing the ATF agent.

The bad guy, prior to wrestling for the ATF agent's gun, was armed with an airsoft pistol or something like that.

The ATF agent's wife and daughter were inside the convenience store and saw the whole thing.

I think we can all understand the impulse to stop the criminal. I think we can also all understand that given a choice, neither that widow nor her now fatherless daughter probably think it was worth it.

The point is that sometimes good guys doing good things pay a price. Whether you are willing to pay that price or not is a personal decision, and not something that makes you better or worse, more or less "manly," than others. For every person who says it makes him braver, there's someone else who'll say it just makes him more of a glory hound. Etc.

So express your own feelings and expectations of yourself without pointing fingers at everyone else. Thank you.

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 05:45 PM
to those that ask "have you ever drawn a gun on another" there is a lot of people that have never and in hopes never will but it the heat of the moment they have to may they find the strength and wisdom to do the right thing when necessary.

Actually I think I was the only one who asked the question just to be clear about it. And well.......I certainly hope they do the right thing too.

Nephrology
03-05-2012, 06:38 PM
Just wanted to thank those who have participated in this conversation politely and informatively, particularly the SMEs. I have no well informed opinion on intervention on behalf of a 3rd party except that I like the idea and fear the reality. I have a lot of thinking to do on the matter.

JodyH
03-05-2012, 06:41 PM
I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?
I've been on the losing end of having a gun pointed at me, and took home the trophy (bullet and scar).
As a result of that I now have one "line in the sand" that I will not willingly let someone who means me harm cross.

GA_Jeff
03-05-2012, 09:32 PM
As everyone here knows, carrying a pistol for self defense carries with it grave responsibility. Choices you make with that weapon can and will change your life and the life of those involved with your decision forever. That being said, does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?

Too many gray areas to try and make this black & white. Sure, protecting yourself and or your loved once a life-threatening situation...that's B&W. However it gets gray when you decide to take on a role of protector to strangers, etc. You see a man with a knife toward a woman in an ally, shoot him dead, and next thing you know...she's testifying against you for killing her boyfriend. Just an exaggerated example, but you get the idea.

I won't go into the details, but several years ago I was involved in an incident. I intervened when I saw a man throw a woman to the ground in a store. He was much bigger, but I managed to get him in a choke hold. I was unarmed. Long story, short...I was ushered away with great thanks by the woman. The reason...she didn't want me getting sued. Point being, you can think you're completely in the "right" and still end up spending lots of money trying to keep yourself out of trouble and or prevent yourself from losing your shirt.

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 10:44 PM
I did not even watch that video because it does not matter.

Actually you probably should watch the video because it really does matter. And if you do watch the video do you still stand by these "lines in the sand" that you've posted about?


I have made a personal choice not to use deadly force in the defense of a third party. In today's litigious society, it just does not make sense to me. My choice stems partly from the fact that every single law abiding citizen in the state of TN has the privelige of obtaing an HCP and carrying a weapon. If someone is not enlighted enough to realize that safety and self defense are a personal responsibility and not the LEO's than I do not feel I should be responsble for them. I am sure many will disagree, but that is my stance and I will adhere to it.



I will not compromise myself or my family because of their stupidity.


I will not use leathal force unless I feel that I or those in my care are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm

So the question I'd like to ask you is if that were you in the video that was posted and you were watching a man stab a downed woman over and over, literally ten feet away from you and you had no family with you to watch over would you still not intervene and shoot that guy? If not, then okay you truly have drawn a line in the sand.

However, watching people make these remarks reminds me of the same remarks I see made regarding "everyone get's shot who comes in my house". Sounds good until it's a shit scared 17 year old kid who's come in through your window because he thinks that the hot cheerleader lives there when he actually has the wrong house.

It all sounds cool until you actually have to do it. Not saying YOU can't. But most regular people have not been exposed to the kind of REAL ambiguity that ALOT of these events are underscored by. MOST people I see in the training community have never even POINTED a gun at another human being much less have the absolute moral certainty and self awareness to be able to walk away from a woman being stabbed to death.

There's a reason this community is called pistol-forum.com and not decision-making.com. Shooting is just a small part of it and the benchmarks of a real street tactician are adaptability and flexibility.

10mm please don't think I'm picking on you or trying to single you out in particular because I don't mean to be harsh. It's an interesting debate to me and gives me insight into the student base as an instructor.

barstoolguru
03-05-2012, 11:07 PM
However, watching people make these remarks reminds me of the same remarks I see made regarding "everyone get's shot who comes in my house". Sounds good until it's a shit scared 17 year old kid who's come in through your window because he thinks that the hot cheerleader lives there when he actually has the wrong house.

I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man". I for one am not going to wait and see if it's some kid at the wrong house or someone there to steal and kill the home owners

we heard that crap before and I can prove it... here. "he was a good boy" and "he was there going to see his girl friend"... no he was there to steal !!

if it don't come up this is the title
Black Teen Killed Attemping Burglary - Mom Says: It's Normal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAOu9lYsgEc

SouthNarc
03-05-2012, 11:18 PM
I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man". I for one am not going to wait and see if it's some kid at the wrong house or someone there to steal and kill the home owners



Roger that and keep on keepin' on'.

TCinVA
03-05-2012, 11:38 PM
I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man".

If that's your home defense plan, you should probably come up with a much better way to explain it to the police should you ever put it into practice.

YMMV, offers void where prohibited or taxed, etc.

Johnkard
03-06-2012, 01:08 AM
One morning, a charming housewife in her 50's was jarred awake at 4:00 in the morning by a soft noise echoing through the length of the house. Her husband was out on a long assignment on an air-force base in New Mexico, and the combination of extreme quite and cold air had formed a delicate combination that put every nerve in her being on edge. She left her room with a robe, and baseball bat, edging forward through the small ranch style home, the silence around her broken only by the same soft rustling that had woken her. As she reached the end of the hallway, kitchen door ajar, she was sure, someone else was in the house. Adrenaline surged through her small frame, fueled by memories of a bloody war in her home country, just as the rustling stopped and light footsteps came closer to the door. The young intruder leaned carefully through the doorway oblivious of his terrified observer, and turned to face her just as her swing connected with his shoulder.

"Oh my god, MOM IT'S ME. OWW!"

My grandmother was a fierce German woman, and her swing left a huge purple bruise across my father's upper back. If she had been carrying a gun instead of a bat, I would not exist. (whatever you may think, I'm happy she wasn't into guns.)

Unless you are immune to fear, and unaffected by adrenaline, you should NOT trust yourself to make life or death decisions under fire. Your methods and training must be 100% consistent if you carry a gun, because even one mistake in ten thousand can lead to the death of an innocent. If you are so self centered that you can discount any number of dead innocents based on ambiguous circumstances, why not get started right now. Kill your neighbors, kill your friends, more beer money for you right? "well society doesn't allow that sort of bullshit" neither does society allow you to shoot unarmed idiots sneaking into your house. You might not go to jail, but you will be forever branded as the incalculably stupid redneck who shot a defenseless kid. Don't be that guy, train hard, and don't let your third leg control your trigger finger.


My question:

Has anyone here ever intentionally killed a person?


If the answer is yes, and you're willing to talk about it, your opinion may be the most important content yielded by this thread.

Slavex
03-06-2012, 04:40 AM
I think this thread has run it's course. Posting intentions of a possibly lethal nature on the internet is a sure fire way to encounter extra legal troubles should you decide to cross your "line".