Big Army Soliciting for new 9mm SMG (Sub Compact Weapon - SCW)

[El Cid]

This is interesting for a few reasons. The image shown is a very short bbl AR, but we know the media seldom gets the gun pic correct. They are soliciting for a new PDW/SMG and it must use 9x19 ammunition.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/army-sets-sights-on-new-concealable-machine-gun

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Soldiers may soon have a covertly-carried, powerful machine gun to defend Americans who are at high risk from enemy attacks.

The new weapon would significantly boost the amount of firepower soldiers have at their fingertips to respond to a threat against individuals who are particularly attractive targets to terrorists, for example.

The threat to high-profile targets was highlighted recently when U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Smiley was wounded in a Taliban attack in Afghanistan’s Kandahar province.

While the weapon eyed by the military will deliver a more muscular response than those that tend to be carried on Protective Security Details, the goal is for the new beast to minimize collateral damage.

Dubbed the “Sub Compact Weapon,” this Army initiative aims to produce a smart, ultra-compact design for specific missions. This is essential because it means soldiers can be armed with a discreet and easy-to-conceal weapon. It also enables a soldier to be fast and agile to stop any threat.

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What's sad is the myths that refuse to die. I don't know if this is from the Fox News reporter, or an Army document, but I laughed at this statement:
"Opting for 9mm rounds rather than 5.56mm could assist in reducing overpenetration and thus collateral damage."

[JRB]

They already cancelled an RFI for it in July, but reopened it last month, awarding 6 contracts:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/09/24/army-confirms-sub-compact-weapon-contracts/

Sig and B&T both threw their hats in the ring, along with four other vendors I've never heard of.

Whatever they choose, I doubt most of us mere mortals will ever see one let alone handle it or qualify on it.
I also struggle to see what these can do that a MK18 can't.

[okie john]

I also struggle to see what these can do that a MK18 can't.

Justify the existence of a bloated procurement system and the staff slots that depend on it?


Okie John

[JRB]

Justify the existence of a bloated procurement system and the staff slots that depend on it?


Okie John

Gotta generate those OER bullets somehow!

[WobblyPossum]

I've always thought that SMGs were cool as hell, mostly due to '80s movie nostalgia. Gadfly did have an informative post about the specific role SMGs fill that even short barreled AR weapons aren't perfect for in the thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32812-Israeli-Commando-Brigade-switching-from-the-Tavor-to-M4s&p=782924&viewfull=1#post782924) about Israeli Commandos dropping their Tavors for M4s. It sounds like these guns will be for PSD details and they'll excel in such a role. Small SMGs can be easily concealed in bags or under coats that would struggle to hide an AR SBR without a LAW folder and unlike an AR with a LAW folder, SMGs are normally designed so they can be fired more than once with the stock folded or collapsed.

[JRB]

I've always thought that SMGs were cool as hell, mostly due to '80s movie nostalgia. Gadfly did have an informative post about the specific role SMGs fill that even short barreled AR weapons aren't perfect for in the thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32812-Israeli-Commando-Brigade-switching-from-the-Tavor-to-M4s&p=782924&viewfull=1#post782924) about Israeli Commandos dropping their Tavors for M4s. It sounds like these guns will be for PSD details and they'll excel in such a role. Small SMGs can be easily concealed in bags or under coats that would struggle to hide an AR SBR without a LAW folder and unlike an AR with a LAW folder, SMGs are normally designed so they can be fired more than once with the stock folded or collapsed.

Hypothetically speaking, most of this is true. I absolutely love SMG's because they're fun as hell to shoot - I actually own a transferable UZI because of 80's movie nostalgia, ease of maintenance, and ease of shooting.

But there's a host of nice PDW stocks and similarly compact AR setups. Troy's M7 system is an off the shelf option that puts it in an SMG equivalent sizing. If these PSD's will be limited to duty issue ammo like M855A1 and M882 ball, I'll take the M855A1 any day of the week because the M882 has known and very real limitations in terminal effect on target. The M855A1 isn't much better, especially from a 7-10in barrel, but it is without question substantially more effective than M882 ball. The overpenetration talk is misguided at best, and if the PSD's aren't limited to duty ammo, why not run effective duty-loaded 5.56 on our PSD's?

And if our top brass is worth defending with good ammo with a properly designed projectile, why can't the rest of us in uniform use it to have better results on bad guys?

IMHO, this is all a dog and pony show clusterfuck and a few Generals will enjoy PSD's toting new toys they can idly talk about with the gaggle of killhat CSM's and Flappy Birds they roll with.

[Casual Friday]

Sometimes the correct answer is the simplest one.

31640

[HCM]

Sometimes the correct answer is the simplest one.

31640

Not really. These guns had significant issues in service with both DEA and US DOS.

Even if you get one that works, the service life is limited, the AR was never designed as s blowback. The guns literally beat themselves to death.

[Casual Friday]

Not really. These guns had significant issues in service with both DEA and US DOS.

Even if you get one that works, the service life is limited, the AR was never designed as s blowback. The guns literally beat themselves to death.

You're killin' my 80s action movie vibe man.

[JRB]

Not really. These guns had significant issues in service with both DEA and US DOS.

Even if you get one that works, the service life is limited, the AR was never designed as s blowback. The guns literally beat themselves to death.

I recall a DOE 9mm upper on a transferable owned by a family friend that had lots of problems. But this makes sense.

Nonetheless, they now make very reliable and vetted 5.56 variants that fit into the same size/form factor as those old 9mm's.

[Coyotesfan97]

If your telling me I need a concealable sub gun in 9mm I’ll take the HK MP5 PDW please. Hell I’ll take an MP5 with a retractable stock.

[Joe in PNG]

I predict that Sig is going to win this one.

[Jim Watson]

Beretta 93? Oh, wait, we aren't buying Berettas any more.

[HCM]

I predict that Sig is going to win this one.

They have a good shot. The controls / layout is AR/ M-4 format.

The MPX has passsed testing with DHS/ICE and the Navy/ Crane/SOCCOM was playing with them a while back.

[TGS]

But there's a host of nice PDW stocks and similarly compact AR setups. Troy's M7 system is an off the shelf option that puts it in an SMG equivalent sizing. If these PSD's will be limited to duty issue ammo like M855A1 and M882 ball, I'll take the M855A1 any day of the week because the M882 has known and very real limitations in terminal effect on target. The M855A1 isn't much better, especially from a 7-10in barrel, but it is without question substantially more effective than M882 ball. The overpenetration talk is misguided at best, and if the PSD's aren't limited to duty ammo, why not run effective duty-loaded 5.56 on our PSD's?


Attackers overseas are much more likely to be wearing body armor, so a 5.56 or even SCHV PDW such as the MP7 is a good route over 9mm.

You raise a good point with ammo. Speer Gold Dot G2 is currently in use with pointy-tipped units, and as I understand it the MHS contract also included the procurement of a standard issue JHP. I hope that these should be available for use by PSDs as they are legally in a gray area; DOD gets away with using military personnel for PSDs stateside on some legally tenuous grounds....so I'm sure they could play the same sleeve of cards (if needed) to use JHPs overseas. Given we all know how everything makes sense in Big Gov, I don't want to assume that either of these two ammunition options would be available to the details, however.

With that said, I wouldn't lose any sleep using a 9mm SMG, particularly in domestic assignments. I'd be perfectly content with a Brugger and Thomet MP9, actually.

When we get outside the envelope of a B&T MP9, I can't really think of a reason to purposely issue an SMG over COTS 5.56 weapons. The newest generation of DD Mk18s we're using are just as light, very svelte, and recoil about the same as a .22. The only thing that would make them better is if we had LAW adapters, or an original design with a folding stock.


You're killin' my 80s action movie vibe man.

Following the Navy Yard shooting, the NCIS protection office in DC decided they needed more long guns. They received a shipment of Colt SMGs, which from what I've been told were never removed from the crates....they just waited until more MP5s showed up.

[Sensei]

This is interesting for a few reasons. The image shown is a very short bbl AR, but we know the media seldom gets the gun pic correct. They are soliciting for a new PDW/SMG and it must use 9x19 ammunition.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/army-sets-sights-on-new-concealable-machine-gun

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************

Soldiers may soon have a covertly-carried, powerful machine gun to defend Americans who are at high risk from enemy attacks.

The new weapon would significantly boost the amount of firepower soldiers have at their fingertips to respond to a threat against individuals who are particularly attractive targets to terrorists, for example.

The threat to high-profile targets was highlighted recently when U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Smiley was wounded in a Taliban attack in Afghanistan’s Kandahar province.

While the weapon eyed by the military will deliver a more muscular response than those that tend to be carried on Protective Security Details, the goal is for the new beast to minimize collateral damage.

Dubbed the “Sub Compact Weapon,” this Army initiative aims to produce a smart, ultra-compact design for specific missions. This is essential because it means soldiers can be armed with a discreet and easy-to-conceal weapon. It also enables a soldier to be fast and agile to stop any threat.

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************

What's sad is the myths that refuse to die. I don't know if this is from the Fox News reporter, or an Army document, but I laughed at this statement:
"Opting for 9mm rounds rather than 5.56mm could assist in reducing overpenetration and thus collateral damage."


Hypothetically speaking, most of this is true. I absolutely love SMG's because they're fun as hell to shoot - I actually own a transferable UZI because of 80's movie nostalgia, ease of maintenance, and ease of shooting.

But there's a host of nice PDW stocks and similarly compact AR setups. Troy's M7 system is an off the shelf option that puts it in an SMG equivalent sizing. If these PSD's will be limited to duty issue ammo like M855A1 and M882 ball, I'll take the M855A1 any day of the week because the M882 has known and very real limitations in terminal effect on target. The M855A1 isn't much better, especially from a 7-10in barrel, but it is without question substantially more effective than M882 ball. The overpenetration talk is misguided at best, and if the PSD's aren't limited to duty ammo, why not run effective duty-loaded 5.56 on our PSD's?

And if our top brass is worth defending with good ammo with a properly designed projectile, why can't the rest of us in uniform use it to have better results on bad guys?

IMHO, this is all a dog and pony show clusterfuck and a few Generals will enjoy PSD's toting new toys they can idly talk about with the gaggle of killhat CSM's and Flappy Birds they roll with.

The article’s picture and content make me think that the authors are conflating different RFPs. What is pictured is not an AR but the Sig MCX Rattler in 300blk. It was specifically designed by Sig around a SOCOM RFP for a ultra-compact PDW to be used on high-value person security details.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18250/us-special-operators-will-test-sig-sauers-new-mini-assault-rifle-in-combat

The contract specified a 300blk upper receiver that could be adapted to existing M4 lowers (the MCX has an adaptor) with a folding stock option that collapsed down to a mere 15 inches (26” stock extended). Sig responded with a 5.5” 1:5 twist 300blk upper that is designed to be fired unsuppressed. Supposedly, CAG has a few of these and have paired them with the 110 grain Barnes TAC-TX seen here:

31656

Although that 5.5” barrel length seems short, it still sends those 110 grain pills down range at about 1800-1900 fps. The TAC-TX expands down to 1400 fps or well beyond 100 yards. Couple this terminal performance with the ability to defeat soft armor and the Rattler upper puts an MP5K to shame.

[El Cid]

Doing some mild research and noticed B&T has a new version of the APC9 (called the APC9-G). It takes Glock 9mm mags and you can use any AR style pistol grip. If I can get this as an SBR, throw a short can on it, I'm all over it!

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/08/09/a-first-sneak-peak-of-the-upcoming-bt-apc9-pro/

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/brugger-thomet-makes-take-glock-mags/

And while I agree a PCC will not do the same work as a rifle caliber SBR... this thing would be much easier to take places that the shortest 5.56 or 300BLK platforms will go. And since I carry a Glock 9mm already...

[willie]

What is the origin of such proposals? For example, do Army and Marine Corps generals sit around and brain storm? Do top dogs ask grunt nco's for suggestions?
The question sounds naïve. Perhaps I am.

[El Cid]

What is the origin of such proposals? For example, do Army and Marine Corps generals sit around and brain storm? Do top dogs ask grunt nco's for suggestions?
The question sounds naïve. Perhaps I am.

A suggestion box in the hallway at the Pentagon. lol!

Likely all of what you mentioned. As much as I like to think it's a team of professionals with gobs of combat experience, pouring over AAR's in an effort to be better at the mission... it's often someone with a pet project/idea who waits until he is in a position of power/access to implement it. For example, had I been promoted to CNO, I'd have purchased A-10's with folding wings to carry Harpoon missiles off carriers into combat because that was an idea I had during the cold war for taking on the Soviet navy. Of course, I never joined the U.S. Navy so the contracting officers were safe from my musings.

[willie]

I see. So maybe if a general were in my Sunday school class and I let him shoot my potato cannon and let him hunt and fish for free on my half(?)of the King Ranch, then he might take my advice on submachine guns after he observed me shoot dirt clods and stumps at long range with my black powder revolver. Maybe we should just buy something off the shelf that works well for everybody else.

[psalms144.1]

As someone ran on a .mil PSD for a principal who spent a lot of time in harms way for about 5 years, I think this is a piss poor idea and a HUGE waste of resources. Reasons:

1. Size/weight. A pistol caliber SMG is always going to be so large and heavy that it will NOT be carried by the principal as a matter of course. For detail members, the size and weight will dictate it generally being carried in a concealed "bag" of some sort (backpack, sling bag, whatever), meaning it will be GENERALLY available, but not IMMEDIATELY available. In protection, you dance with the girl that brung you - RARELY is there time to "gear up" after things get dicy. We had access to MP5KNs, side folding PDW stocks, and, IIRC, they came out of the armory TWICE in 5 years of CONUS and OCONUS use - because they were just not worth the effort. If the weapon is going to be carried openly, a Mk18 makes INFINITELY better sense.

2. Performance. No matter how "cool" the 9mm SMG is (and I DEARLY loved my MP5...), it's still a large, heavy handgun, shooting handgun rounds very quickly. That means limited armor penetration, limited range, etc. Again, existing solutions in 5.56mm (Mk18 or the dearly departed Mk16 with CQB barrel) offer SIGNIFICANT increases in performance. If we're going to spend the money to develop something "new," let's get something WORTH THE INVESTMENT. Some of the teeny tiny 300BO "PDWs" come to mind...

[TGS]

We had access to MP5KNs, side folding PDW stocks, and, IIRC, they came out of the armory TWICE in 5 years of CONUS and OCONUS use - because they were just not worth the effort.

Why? We've carried long guns in bags as a matter of regular practice for a long time. Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.


Some of the teeny tiny 300BO "PDWs" come to mind...

Hear hear!

[psalms144.1]

Why? We've carried long guns in bags as a matter of regular practice for a long time. Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.Because our Mk16s with stocks folded fit in the same size bag as our MP5s...

[TGS]

Because our Mk16s with stocks folded fit in the same size bag as our MP5s...

Ahhhhhhhh, gotcha.

For whatever reason I was thinking you only had the SMG as the long gun and were just opting to not bring a long gun at all.

[psalms144.1]

My bad, should have been clearer. Only a very few instances where we took SMGs over Carbines...

[Inkwell 41]

I don't understand this fascination today with SMGs when options like Q's "Honey Badger" and Noveske's "Ghetto Blaster" are available. Can't imagine that .300 Blackout couldn't be made readily available for the end users of these things. It's got to be much better out of a VSBR than 5.56 is. But I'm not looking for a promotion to O-7, followed by a lucrative post retirement gig at SIG or FN.

[HCM]

I don't understand this fascination today with SMGs when options like Q's "Honey Badger" and Noveske's "Ghetto Blaster" are available. Can't imagine that .300 Blackout couldn't be made readily available for the end users of these things. It's got to be much better out of a VSBR than 5.56 is. But I'm not looking for a promotion to O-7, followed by a lucrative post retirement gig at SIG or FN.

The only justification I can think of is logistics, I.e. the availability of 9mm “in the system” and OCONUS.

[Sensei]

The only justification I can think of is logistics, I.e. the availability of 9mm “in the system” and OCONUS.

Yep. The group requesting the Rattler had a need for a SBR with good intermediate barrier penetration capability (think cars) while still being concealable under clothing. The 300blk with 110 grain TAC-TX does that better than 9mm (or 5.56 for that matter) out of an equivalent length barrel at the expense of ammo and parts availability. This is a niche gun for very specific tasks. I would not want to be the one or two guys with a 300blk SBR if my job were to defend the Benghazi compound against hundreds of video protestors.

[Hambo]

Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.

When I was on the SWAT team I was also shooting USPSA. I remember watching a dude with an open class, optic equipped, 20-some round magizine pistol and wondering why I was carrying a much heavier, no optic, MP5 with a few more rounds at work. At that time there was no way to make a reliable LE/mil comp gun, but now there is. Just saying.

[Bucky]

Yep. The group requesting the Rattler had a need for a SBR with good intermediate barrier penetration capability (think cars) while still being concealable under clothing. The 300blk with 110 grain TAC-TX does that better than 9mm (or 5.56 for that matter) out of an equivalent length barrel at the expense of ammo and parts availability. This is a niche gun for very specific tasks. I would not want to be the one or two guys with a 300blk SBR if my job were to defend the Benghazi compound against hundreds of video protestors.

I see what you did there. ;)

[El Cid]

When I was on the SWAT team I was also shooting USPSA. I remember watching a dude with an open class, optic equipped, 20-some round magizine pistol and wondering why I was carrying a much heavier, no optic, MP5 with a few more rounds at work. At that time there was no way to make a reliable LE/mil comp gun, but now there is. Just saying.

But SMG’s can just as easily have an optic as a pistol. And you get the 3rd anchor point of a stock. While I’d choose a rifle caliber long gun over a PCC, I would choose a PCC over a handgun.

[Hambo]

But SMG’s can just as easily have an optic as a pistol. And you get the 3rd anchor point of a stock. While I’d choose a rifle caliber long gun over a PCC, I would choose a PCC over a handgun.

I'd choose the pistol and something in 5.56.

[psalms144.1]

But SMG’s can just as easily have an optic as a pistol. And you get the 3rd anchor point of a stock. While I’d choose a rifle caliber long gun over a PCC, I would choose a PCC over a handgun.The point is this isn't a binary decision - pistol or PCC - for the Army. They can have whatever they want. The PCC/SMG makes NO sense in this context - yet another "good idea fairy" dropping out of the sky on the heads of the taxpayers. The PSDs in question already have access to M4s and Mk18s.

This is like the Pentagon Police procuring a bunch of HK UMPs in .40 S&W - why? Just use standard available equipment and be done with it.

[El Cid]

The point is this isn't a binary decision - pistol or PCC - for the Army. They can have whatever they want. The PCC/SMG makes NO sense in this context - yet another "good idea fairy" dropping out of the sky on the heads of the taxpayers. The PSDs in question already have access to M4s and Mk18s.

This is like the Pentagon Police procuring a bunch of HK UMPs in .40 S&W - why? Just use standard available equipment and be done with it.

I wasn’t justifying the Army’s decision. Just saying in response to Hambo’s post that a PCC is better than a handgun even with an optic and 20rd mag.


I'd choose the pistol and something in 5.56.

As would I. That’s not what I was saying. You referenced a handgun with optic and extended mag as being a better choice than your MP-5. If my options were a pistol or SMG/PCC I’m going with the shoulder mounted option.

[TGS]

The point is this isn't a binary decision - pistol or PCC - for the Army. They can have whatever they want. The PCC/SMG makes NO sense in this context - yet another "good idea fairy" dropping out of the sky on the heads of the taxpayers. The PSDs in question already have access to M4s and Mk18s.

This is like the Pentagon Police procuring a bunch of HK UMPs in .40 S&W - why? Just use standard available equipment and be done with it.

AFAIK, PFPA isn't in the regular military supply chain since they're a civilian agency...they don't have "standard available equipment" like AFOSI automatically gets M11s from big brother, a given base's PMO gets M9s, or SOCOM automatically gets M4s and has to pay "extra" out of unit funds to procure the Mk16.

At the time when they purchased the UMP, that was just as standard a decision for them to make as would have been purchasing any other gun. As was their Glock 23 duty gun, LWRC M6 carbines for ERT and MP7 for PSDs.

[psalms144.1]

AFAIK, PFPA isn't in the regular military supply chain since they're a civilian agency...they don't have "standard available equipment" like AFOSI automatically gets M11s from big brother, a given base's PMO gets M9s, or SOCOM automatically gets M4s and has to pay "extra" out of unit funds to procure the Mk16.

At the time when they purchased the UMP, that was just as standard a decision for them to make as would have been purchasing any other gun. As was their Glock 23 duty gun, LWRC M6 carbines for ERT and MP7 for PSDs.Even "civilian agencies" in the DOD (like mine) have access to any DOD standard equipment. PFPA was stood up in a hurry by a bunch of guys from outside DOD, and they brought their background and equipment "expertise" with them.

In a similar vein, my agency issues a nearly universally disliked pistol and caliber because a "civilian leader" decided that we were going to get kilt on da streetz if we hadn't switched to the .40, which, you know, knocks people out of their shoes when you shoot AT them...

I could go on for AGES about this stuff, having witnessed it up close and personal for the last 18+ years as a DOD civilian, but, it's just too depressing.

Like this whole idea of a new 9mm SMG...

[ranger]

I realize this is PF so we focus on small arms but any limited issue of SMGs is "budget dust" to Big Army. One big conference costs more than this whole SMG line item. All the more reason to just buy whatever is already vetted. As far as "special" units, they will carry whatever they want anyway.

[JHC]

If I were betting, I'd bet they have a legitimate need for a concealable/discreet weapon that provides a lot more capability than a pistol in protective detail roles or any number of low vis work.

I can imagine the SFABs alone might have a great need for having this capability when they don't want to be seen going all "guardian angel" jocked up with armor and M4s.

Using SOF for protective details on a wide scale across all the places the SFABs will be functioning would be an order of magnitude bigger waste of resources.

The lethality of a low vis team armed with a SMG will be a lot greater than with pistols. It's not likely they have time and resources to get everyone on a 100K rounds a year diet of ammo like a SMU.

If the worry is attackers wearing armor; if it's plate armor, and that's the fear, I don't know that .300 BO is a magic bullet. And most of the threat won't be armored.

Again, for the expanse of territory in the M.E., South Asia, and Africa where these units will be operating, the logistics of stocking .300 BO in the volumes needed may be dumber.


It wouldn't surprise me if somebody knows exactly what they're doing.

[Chemsoldier]

While the SFABs might find them useful for some applications, we have distorted the market in shooting people through the GWOT. We have fielded so much body armor to our partners and taught them the value of force protection that even when we as trainers are not jocked up, there are partners in the area providing overwatch. Those overwatch personnel are all too often the people that turn on you. Infiltrators like it because they have an excuse to be jocked up around US personnel who are not.

This potential that threat will be wearing armor, and we field all kinds to them including some that is just pistol rated, makes a pistol caliber PDW less than ideal.

[willie]

Hoping not to show my ignorance, I'll comment. In various places including where I grew up I had many occasions to shoot submachine guns. The old school ones were heavy. Today that's probably changed. How small can the package be made before the weapon is too small to be effective? I don't know, but it seems to me that the end result will be a six or seven pound product that still is cumbersome to carry in a discreet manner. We already are aware of pistol caliber limitations. So the next step up then is an even larger weapon. I'm having trouble visualizing the niche for this weapon. I do wonder why that if there is an unmet need, why we have not purchased and issued the desired weapons. Perhaps we have.

[JHC]

While the SFABs might find them useful for some applications, we have distorted the market in shooting people through the GWOT. We have fielded so much body armor to our partners and taught them the value of force protection that even when we as trainers are not jocked up, there are partners in the area providing overwatch. Those overwatch personnel are all too often the people that turn on you. Infiltrators like it because they have an excuse to be jocked up around US personnel who are not.

This potential that threat will be wearing armor, and we field all kinds to them including some that is just pistol rated, makes a pistol caliber PDW less than ideal.

+1 yes I think the SFABs and/or others have identified some applications. I wouldn't be surprised if we had our own overwatch also that would have rifles +. Might not be an all this or all that question. And overwatch of the action going down inside a GP Medium could mean solve it there inside the tent.

IDK. And We DK. Adding the logistics for .300 BO across units spanning different continents is a big deal.

[El Cid]

Adding the logistics for .300 BO across units spanning different continents is a big deal.

Let's also not forget we are talking about big Army. It won't take 5 minutes before someone tries to load 300BLK into a 5.56 rifle and it goes kaboom if we have both calibers in the field. Specialized units are one thing, but from a safety perspective I'd be worried to have large conventional units (in any branch of service) mixing rifles that look identical and some take 5.56 while some take the 300BLK. I've seen professionals load the wrong ammo into pistols and SMG's (9, 40, etc.). Most soldiers will be able to tell the difference between rifle rounds and 9mm.

[JRB]

Let's also not forget we are talking about big Army. It won't take 5 minutes before someone tries to load 300BLK into a 5.56 rifle and it goes kaboom if we have both calibers in the field. Specialized units are one thing, but from a safety perspective I'd be worried to have large conventional units (in any branch of service) mixing rifles that look identical and some take 5.56 while some take the 300BLK. I've seen professionals load the wrong ammo into pistols and SMG's (9, 40, etc.). Most soldiers will be able to tell the difference between rifle rounds and 9mm.

In my limited understanding, it takes some bullet setback to chamber a 300BLK in a 5.56, so in most cases it would at least initially fail to go into battery. So unless SPC Derp starting bashing the forward assist, it's somewhat safe from an instant surprise kaboom. Getting SPC Derp to pay attention to the safety briefing before that range event, though...
That's exactly why we will never see use of 300BLK in line units or anywhere outside of very specialized trigger-puller sorts of organizations.

Hell, there's embarrassingly large parts of the Army that still have ancient beat up first-gen M4's and even M16A2's. So there's bigger problems with rifles for the rank and file.

[alohadoug]

Let's examine the recent shooting involving the Commanding General of US and NATO Forces in Afghanistan (https://www.stripes.com/news/top-us-general-uninjured-in-kandahar-attack-that-killed-afghan-general-1.552355). GEN Miller and the Brigadier General Smiley, Commander of NATO mission South were meeting with the Chief of Police and Intelligence Chief in Kandahar on 18 October. Though all individuals had PSD's, none of the PSD's were armed with long guns, sidearms only out of a sign of respect and trust. All US/NATO principals were wearing body armor. The locals don't typically wear armor. One of the Afghan's PSD's drew his sidearm and engaged the principals. The two Afghan principals were killed, BG Smiley was wondered along with another NATO officer. Reports say BG Smiley's vest stopped at least one round. The shooter was killed by US PSD's. GEN Miller is a former JSOC and SOCOM CG with a long history of Special Operations experience. Some reports have GEN Miller in the room, even standing next to the Afghans. It seems the Afghans were the primary targets (the CoP was a virulent anti-Taliban). Same reports say GEN Miller drew his sidearm.

Too often, for political reasons, PSD's don't/aren't authorized to carry long guns into meetings or during certain situations. CENTCOM has identified a need for a "concealable" firearm that offers more than a typical sidearm. Either in capacity, stability (i.e. stock or "brace"), or in burst/automatic. Would a Mk18 or equivalent make more tactical/lethality-sense, sure. But we operate in an environment where political/appearance counts too.

[JRB]

Let's examine the recent shooting involving the Commanding General of US and NATO Forces in Afghanistan (https://www.stripes.com/news/top-us-general-uninjured-in-kandahar-attack-that-killed-afghan-general-1.552355). GEN Miller and the Brigadier General Smiley, Commander of NATO mission South were meeting with the Chief of Police and Intelligence Chief in Kandahar on 18 October. Though all individuals had PSD's, none of the PSD's were armed with long guns, sidearms only out of a sign of respect and trust. All US/NATO principals were wearing body armor. The locals don't typically wear armor. One of the Afghan's PSD's drew his sidearm and engaged the principals. The two Afghan principals were killed, BG Smiley was wondered along with another NATO officer. Reports say BG Smiley's vest stopped at least one round. The shooter was killed by US PSD's. GEN Miller is a former JSOC and SOCOM CG with a long history of Special Operations experience. Some reports have GEN Miller in the room, even standing next to the Afghans. It seems the Afghans were the primary targets (the CoP was a virulent anti-Taliban). Same reports say GEN Miller drew his sidearm.

Too often, for political reasons, PSD's don't/aren't authorized to carry long guns into meetings or during certain situations. CENTCOM has identified a need for a "concealable" firearm that offers more than a typical sidearm. Either in capacity, stability (i.e. stock or "brace"), or in burst/automatic. Would a Mk18 or equivalent make more tactical/lethality-sense, sure. But we operate in an environment where political/appearance counts too.

I read that whole report, and others too of that incident.

I'd be citing that and rolling in full kit to everything for the foreseeable future. Every time we get brazenly attacked and that attack takes advantage of a visible weakness, we refuse to visibly harden ourselves let alone retaliate decisively.
Which our adversaries only perceive as weakness, and emboldens them further. It's been that way since the Beirut bombing and it continues to happen.
It's way above my lane, and it's likely that I'm just a dumb NCO - but I'm getting goddamn sick of seeing our military spill blood needlessly because of bullshit appearances or politics.

[psalms144.1]

I'll only add the following to this - anyone who thinks that the SMGs in question are "easily concealable" in standard PSD attire is sorely mistaken. If we REALLY want to have portable, concealable, handgun caliber automatic weapon to increase "firepower" for PSDs, we ought to look at something like the G18 with a folding stock. Anything significantly larger than that is going to be concealed carried off-body, in a bag of some sort, meaning it won't be IMMEDIATELY available in an ambush like the recent attack in Afghanistan.

Of course, I'm just a guy who RAN high-level DOD PSDs for more than seven years, including PSDs traveling throughout all the various theaters of conflict, so what do I know...

[El Cid]

I'll only add the following to this - anyone who thinks that the SMGs in question are "easily concealable" in standard PSD attire is sorely mistaken. If we REALLY want to have portable, concealable, handgun caliber automatic weapon to increase "firepower" for PSDs, we ought to look at something like the G18 with a folding stock. Anything significantly larger than that is going to be concealed carried off-body, in a bag of some sort, meaning it won't be IMMEDIATELY available in an ambush like the recent attack in Afghanistan.

Of course, I'm just a guy who RAN high-level DOD PSDs for more than seven years, including PSDs traveling throughout all the various theaters of conflict, so what do I know...

Clearly your time machine is not working... lol! ;) Isn't spray and pray a viable technique in that part of the world?

http://www.machinegundealer.com/MAC_10__11_Rig_with_mag_pouch_and_gun.jpg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/PC190904.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/5/5a/InvasionUSApromo.jpg

[Chemsoldier]

http://www.imfdb.org/images/5/5a/InvasionUSApromo.jpg

I am fairly certain Chuck Norris is considered a Destructive Device...

[TGS]

MAC made this video a week ago about the B&T MP9, which I think is a sweet little SMG specifically made for protection.

Specific to the Army's use, B&T makes a functional shoulder holster for it that deploys the stock upon drawing, which is a much quicker deployment than a long gun from a bag. And even if you aren't wearing a garment that can hide this (my agency used to wear UZIs on shoulder rigs under our suits, so IDK why that isn't possible), it can still fit into a much smaller and more inconspicuous bag than a folded Mk18-sized gun, which requires a Vertx Gamut sized backpack. So, you can take it more places, and also deploy it quicker.

I don't think there's any single 1 right answer to PSD long guns, like Mk18 or bust. With the MP9 and a foldable 5.56/300 (Mk18+ LAW, MCX, HK416, etc) then I think you are covering your bases really well compared to only having one or the other.

JHC had brought up the possibility of this contract also being influenced by needs of the SFABs and a need for something greater than a pistol for green on blue. Note, in addition to the shoulder holster, B&T also markets both a belt and thigh holster for this. It would fit that insider threat role perfectly......and not just for SFABs, while also giving PSDs another option. Pics below, including its use as a PDW by the Portuguese.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JXqXAYLJ4A

Shoulder rig:
32003

Belt holster:
32004

Thigh rig with Portuguese:
32005

[El Cid]

Interesting design. I know I was getting crushed with emails for their suppressed 9mm platform. I guess they were trying to clear old inventory before revealing this?

http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2018/11/14/angstadt-arms-introduces-scw-9-sub-compact-weapon/

http://jerkingthetrigger.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/scw9-right-extended.jpg

[TGS]

If it was designed for the SCW program, why Glock mags instead of M17/M18 mags? You know, the mags carried by the troops? (Well, at least eventually when they transition from the Beretta, that is).

[psalms144.1]

If it was designed for the SCW program, why Glock mags instead of M17/M18 mags? You know, the mags carried by the troops? (Well, at least eventually when they transition from the Beretta, that is).Because M17/18 mags are a known frequent failure point in the current system, while Glock mags typically work?

[TGS]

Because M17/18 mags are a known frequent failure point in the current system, while Glock mags typically work?

Is that a question/hypothetical or something that has been observed in testing and use this far? I didn't keep close tabs on the MHS program...are the mags problematic in some particular way?

[Sensei]

A picture says a thousand words. Here are 3 commonly used PDWs (all 3 lowers are registered SBRs and all NFA laws followed):
32403

The top is a Franken MK18 (KAC lower and LMT MRP upper) with a 10” barrel and an overall length of 28” with the stock collapsed.

The middle is the Sig Rattler in 300BLK with a 5.5” barrel and a left folding skeleton stock at an overall length of 16” with the stock folded.

Bottom is an MP5K clone with a right folding Choate stock at an overall length of 14”.

So, the Rattler gives up 2” to the MP5K but launches 110 grain Barnes TAC-TX bullets at 1800-1900 FPS (compared to 147 grain HST at 1000 FPS from the MP5K), can defeat soft armor, and has terminal performance through intermediate barriers that is on par with the MK18 our to at least 100 meters.

[TiroFijo]

Sensei, great pic. That Rattler grip is really funky... can you change it?

[WobblyPossum]

Sensei I’ve never wanted a Sig Rattler before but for some inexplicable reason I want one now.

[Sensei]

Sensei, great pic. That Rattler grip is really funky... can you change it?

Yep, it accepts all AR grips. While it may look weird, it actually feels pretty good in practice. It originally shipped with a Magpul grip, but Sig changed to a more straight grip based on feedback from users shooting with short stocks that put the wrist at an uncomfortable angle when the elbow was flexed.

[Sensei]

Sensei IÂ’ve never wanted a Sig Rattler before but for some inexplicable reason I want one now.

It’s a niche gun for sure. Basically, it leverages one feature of the 300blk platform - efficient powder burn at short barrel lengths to produce sufficient velocity from a 5.5” barrel to be reasonably effective out to 100-150 meters. It’s not designed to take advantage of other aspects of the 300blk such as being very quiet when suppressed. Don’t get me wrong, people are suppressing them, but supers from a 5.5” barrel are no bueno for many silencer manufacturers.

Another big drawback is ammo. This gun is going to be effective with a limited number of bullets. As mentioned previously, the 110 grain TAC-TXs expand down to 1400ish FPS, but penetration is probably a little more than ideal even at 2200 FPS. Many other 300blk loads have expansion issues right about at 1800 FPS, so selecting the right load is key. Moreover, the gun uses a very tight twist (1:5) to achieve enough rotational inertia for stability. This is reportedly causing some light, thin jacketed bullets to come apart; be careful with suppressors. Finally, people wanting to shoot subs should stick with a PCC.

[WobblyPossum]

My burning desire for one has cooled a bit but it definitely makes you think about why someone would choose a sub machine gun if given all the options.

[call_me_ski]

Is that a question/hypothetical or something that has been observed in testing and use this far? I didn't keep close tabs on the MHS program...are the mags problematic in some particular way?

Magazines ejecting multiple rounds at random was identified as a problem in the army report that reviewed the status of new programs for FY17. I forgot the name of the report but it caused quite a stir went it was released because there were a few issues listed.

[JHC]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/04/01/breaking-us-army-selects-bt-for-new-sub-compact-weapon/



"Today, it has been announced that the submission from B&T USA, the US arm of the Swiss small arms specialists B&T AG, has been selected by the US Army. Beating stiff competition from five other companies, a variant of the B&T APC9 K has been adopted with an initial order for 350 guns confirmed. While the news may have dropped on 1 April, it is certainly not an April Fools joke.

A Production-Other Transaction Agreement (P-OTA) worth $2,575,811.76 has been awarded for the 350 guns with the option of up to 1,000 more along with slings, manuals, accessories and spare parts. TFB have closely followed the Sub Compact Weapon, looking at the various guns the army considered during the course of the programme. The requirement for a new Sub Compact Weapon arose from the specialised role of Personal Security Details to protect High Risk Personnel such as high ranking dignitaries and senior officers in the field."

[El Cid]

FYI to any who are interested... getting emails from vendors today that the APC9 PRO’s are finally hitting dealers.

Noticed they are showing flip up irons that appear to be Magpul Pro’s. Whatever they are, they are AR height. That would put a co-witnessing optic close to 3 inches above the bore... are the Army guns shipping with irons?

[JHC]

Not Big Army but somewhat relevant.

Seems surprising to me but I don't know what I don't know.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/04/13/miami-beach-police-department/

"According to B&T, the new APC9Ks will be put into use within the “specialized service” areas of the department. The Miami Beach Police Department serves nearly 100,000 full-time residents but the area can quickly grow to over 3 million occupants during peak seasons."

[HCM]

Not Big Army but somewhat relevant.

Seems surprising to me but I don't know what I don't know.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/04/13/miami-beach-police-department/

"According to B&T, the new APC9Ks will be put into use within the “specialized service” areas of the department. The Miami Beach Police Department serves nearly 100,000 full-time residents but the area can quickly grow to over 3 million occupants during peak seasons."

Interesting that they are the first to adopt the P320 magazine version.

Despite the speculation in the article the niches ai could see for this in LE would primarily be for use during surveillance, particularly vehicle based surveillance or bagged for foot surveillance /VIP protection similar to the army’s use.