Thoughts on coming over from being an Army officer

[Wake27]

A variant of this thread was posted on M4C a few years ago so some of you may have seen it already. Its pretty open-ended, and wouldn't take place for a few years, but I know some agencies have a very long hiring process. Also, the chances that I'll do anything outside of the Army are pretty rare, but I want to be somewhat knowledgable on other options.

I'm currently an active duty logistics officer and unfortunately just had to make a decision to not pursue my dream career in the Army due to a serious knee injury. The effects of the injury will be permanent, though I think they will be manageable to where I can still be in good shape, just not rucking 20 miles with 80-100 pounds on my back type of shape. LE has been one of the more appealing career choices to me over the last few years, but my guess is that there isn't anything that'll be what I'm looking for because my preferences are just unrealistic. I figured that I'd throw them all out there with the hopes that you guys with experience can let me know what is available that meets at least some of the preferences.

1. Pay/benefits: it pains me to put this as number one, but I have a family and expensive hobbies. Salary, healthcare, benefits, etc. are all pretty good and I think I have a decent shot at making 20 years and collecting a pension from the Army if that's what I decide to do. In order to get me to switch, I'd have to be able to start somewhere that is comparable with pay and benefits. If they could account for my retirement as well (federal side maybe?) that would be even better. Based on common sense and what I've heard from others, finding something that checks this box is hard enough. I have considered switching over to the guard though, so that would help with some of this.
2. Relevant/rewarding: one of my biggest complaints with my current job is that it just doesn't feel rewarding to me. I'm not looking for lots of appreciation from people, I just want to feel like I'm actually doing something good for my community/country. Typically, this has always been a romanticized idea of fighting bad guys but I do realize that life isn't like the movies. I think that I'm pretty good at interacting with people, though I'm absolutely foreign to conflict and appreciate the valuable skills that can be learned by having to deal with those situations.
3. Cool/interesting: kind of goes along with the above, but I love the cool guy stuff like SWAT, ERT, etc. I wanted to go SOF, so you get the point. I also think that counter-terror would be fascinating work. I do know that you can't just jump into any of that stuff, so agencies where that could be fast-tracked would be ideal as I'd probably be around 32 or so by the time I'd switch over.
4. Location: would have to be in a free state. NC, VA area would be great, but not a requirement. I don't like living in a city so somewhere that has a nice balance of city and suburbs with land would be great, but that's hard to find already.

I've heard that USSS has been running people into the ground. I've also heard that smaller agencies like local or maybe state would be better for 2 and 3, but maybe not so good with 1. But, I have heard that some of the larger metropolitan areas actually pay pretty well, so I'm not really sure. Its easy to jump on USAjobs and compare stuff there, but much more difficult at the lower levels because there isn't a common system where you can look at all of the open positions, requirements, salary, etc. Also, I've heard next to nothing about the Marshals, DHS, etc. FBI sounds like it'd make the most sense for some aspects, but I've heard that the hiring process is around two years and its still mostly desk work. I have a little bit of info on the DEA, but for some reason never really wanted to deal with narcotics. I'd appreciate any advice you guys can provide.

[TGS]

How about ALL of that, with the addition that you'll have to get a new assignment every 2-3 years and live overseas for a minimum of 1 year every 6 years as well?

[Wake27]

How about ALL of that, with the addition that you'll have to get a new assignment every 2-3 years and live overseas for a minimum of 1 year every 6 years as well?

Not sure about living overseas that much but I'm definitely curious.

[Duelist]

If you go federal, you take your Army time with you toward retirement. Might not be a perfect 1:1, but beats starting over in local LE. But local LE can be really good, if it’s where you wanted to live. Otherwise, I’d say stay Army and shoot for something else cool while you do your 20. Like being a FAO or an embassy attaché. There are tons of ways to be a soldier. And logistics is important. No army can run without a good logistics chain. So you are contributing, even if it’s not in the way you wanted to.

[TGS]

Not sure about living overseas that much but I'm definitely curious.

Standby for a PM.


If you go federal, you take your Army time with you toward retirement. Might not be a perfect 1:1, but beats starting over in local LE. But local LE can be really good, if it’s where you wanted to live. Otherwise, I’d say stay Army and shoot for something else cool while you do your 20. Like being a FAO or an embassy attaché. There are tons of ways to be a soldier. And logistics is important. No army can run without a good logistics chain. So you are contributing, even if it’s not in the way you wanted to.

Actually, we have to buy back our military time. For people who served 4 years, especially enlisted, it's not that much.

For an officer with a decade of service, it's going to be a lot of money....especially if you did a lot of deployments, as its calculated on how much money you earned. It can be well over 10 grand in these cases.

As for FAOs, that's more like an internship from how it has been explained to me. My freshman year roommate is now a FAO in West Africa.

[KeeFus]

Standby for a PM.



Actually, we have to buy back our military time. For people who served 4 years, especially enlisted, it's not that much.

For an officer with a decade of service, it's going to be a lot of money....especially if you did a lot of deployments, as its calculated on how much money you earned. It can be well over 10 grand in these cases.

As for FAOs, that's more like an internship from how it has been explained to me. My freshman year roommate is now a FAO in West Africa.

Ten grand for 4 years is cheap. I bought 3 of my 4 years back a few years ago at about $8500.00/year. That last year will now cost me $30,000.00.

NC is a 30-year-full-pension retirement system. There are other options depending on your age but I started young and they are not applicable to me. They just came out with a 25 year LEO retirement “option” which starts July 1, 2019. Im at 26.5 years now but would lose a retirement supplement (it’s worded as if the employer could negotiate with you...yea, right) that the municipalities have been wanting to get rid of for years. The supplement equals about $1500/month in addition to a full pension. I think I will just stay 2.5 more years and burn my sick time to make the 30.

[psalms144.1]

On the Federal side, pay/benefits are the pretty much the same across the board, less locality adjustments. You want to look at 1811 positions - criminal investigators. Most agencies have journeyman GS-13s, meaning you promote to GS13 without competition. Some still have journeyman GS12, though, so you'll want to know what you're getting into. Typically, agencies will hire new hires at GS7 or GS9, with annual promotions through the odd numbered GS levels (e.g. one year to 9, one year to 11, then 1-3 years to GS13). Any of these 1811 positions are going to include Law Enforcement Availability Pay (LEAP), which is a flat 25% bonus to cover unscheduled overtime.

On the issue of military buy back, it's 3% of your base pay received over the course of your active duty. I was active for 12 years as an officer, and that equaled $11K for my buy back. The buy back adds TIME to your retirement PAY, but not your required service - in other words, you still have to work a minimum 20 years to collect a federal pension, but your pension will be based on your civiilan time + the number of years served on AD.

You need to be cautious when looking at agencies when it comes to location and mobility. My agency's policy is we move people every 5-8 years "on average," but I've moved four times in 18 years - so averages don't mean so much. I know other agents who were in place in Norfolk for 15-18 years, "PCSing" from one Norfolk "office" to another every few years to maintain "mobility." Other agencies don't move so much, or make the moves tied to promotions. In lower mobility agencies, you might be looking at a decade in place or more, so you need to be sure you're going to be happy where they hire you on.

On the federal side, there are also a WIDE range of missions and level of law enforcement. There are tons of Offices of the Inspector General (OIG) jobs in various departments, some of these jobs are highly administrative and their agents don't even carry firearms on a regular basis. On the other hand, ATF guys are very "hands on" with serious gang-related criminals frequently, so more Adrenalin on a regular basis.

I'm a former Army officer, who has worked for two different agencies as a civilian, if you have specific questions about the Federal side, feel free to drop me a PM.

Best of luck!

[Poconnor]

As a retired broken infantryman/ police officer I would urge you to stay in the military; but if you really want to become a police officer I would look at large departments and state police agencies. departments that have 400 personnel. Look at the demographics and the tax base. In my location the pay differences are huge between departments. I would look for civil service and union protection. I have friends that went federal and they tell me stories that take stupid to a whole another level. I would avoid the secret service. You have to decide what you want now and in the future. Every department and region is different. When I got injured as a police officer workers Comp tried to blame everything on my military service. Make sure you have your own copy of your medical records with copies of MRIs etc. If you do get out of the army make sure you file for compensation from the VA. I waited for over 10 years because I was stubborn; because pain is just weakness leaving the body. But don’t worry; it comes back. Finally- police work is really boring; but sometimes it’s the best job in the world. Remember- you might love the job- but the job doesn’t love you

[Jim Watson]

You are looking for an exciting job in LE like SWAT starting with a bad knee?

[trailrunner]

On the federal side, there are also a WIDE range of missions and level of law enforcement. There are tons of Offices of the Inspector General (OIG) jobs in various departments, some of these jobs are highly administrative and their agents don't even carry firearms on a regular basis.


I briefly worked at the DoD IG, and a relative of mine just retired from there. I was not an 1811, but he was. He had an Army MP background and went to the IG when he retired. At the IG, he carried a gun and a badge, but never came close to arresting anybody. His investigations were mostly audits for compliance with regulations and procedures. Other 1811s at the IG have more of law enforcement role, but my impression is that they don't make very many actual arrests. My relative received a 20 or 25 percent bonus, and was expected to work the extra hours week in and week out. However, he was a GS-15 and hit the salary cap, so he had to put in the extra hours without receiving extra money.

The DoD IG has a bad reputation and has a lot of turnover. During my short time there, I was not impressed. I don't like changing jobs, but my tenure there was by far the shortest of my career, and the small group I worked in has had almost 100 percent turnover in the two years since I left. They used to be rated as one of the worst federal agencies to work for. Of course, YMMV. I was not law enforcement, and with your background it might be a great place to work.

[LSP552]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I hope this isn’t a derailment but have you considered a federal position as a Contracting Officer? You can look at the 1102 series, Contract Specialist. As an active duty logistics officer, you may already be, or may be able to work on your DAWIA contracting certification while active duty.

I’m a former Army EM from the Stone Age, retired Louisiana State Police Capt, who currently works as a Contract Specialist for the Army Contracting Command. There is a real sense of mission where I work. Just wanted to toss that out to you if you decide law enforcement isn’t where you want to go.

If I was starting a LE career today, it would be Federal for sure. Good luck!

Feel free to PM me if you want additional information on the 1102 series.

[CWM11B]

Ten grand for 4 years is cheap. I bought 3 of my 4 years back a few years ago at about $8500.00/year. That last year will now cost me $30,000.00.

NC is a 30-year-full-pension retirement system. There are other options depending on your age but I started young and they are not applicable to me. They just came out with a 25 year LEO retirement “option” which starts July 1, 2019. Im at 26.5 years now but would lose a retirement supplement (it’s worded as if the employer could negotiate with you...yea, right) that the municipalities have been wanting to get rid of for years. The supplement equals about $1500/month in addition to a full pension. I think I will just stay 2.5 more years and burn my sick time to make the 30.

Yup, buying in the fed is cheap. I was (AM) very interested in an instructor job at FLETC (cant seem to crack the code to get in) and when I was at FITP in Glynco, I asked one of the staff how much his cost, when he told me I was amazed, and thought hell, I can write a check for that. I had to roll over 70k from my 401k to the NC pension for mine. Totally worth it to get me out when it did. I would still have a year to go otherwise.

Im going to come out and say it, your stated number 1 priority is incompatible with local LE in NC. Best case you are going to start out at about 40k per year. I retired from one of the five largest PDs in the state. Pay raises were meager to non existant most of my career. Advancement is a combination of good ol' boy and special snowflake/everything wrong with affirmitive action you've ever been told. The smaller agencies pay even less. I met a detective sergeant for a smallish SO one night on the way home after a warrant service at their jail. At the SO, he was in charge of homicide. At this job, he rang me up for my coffee and snickers bar. He was the third shift clerk at a stop and rob. In my agency, we had officers getting food stamps, and many who were constantly exhausted from working OD gigs (because they had champagne appetites on a Natural Light budget)

If you want to be a cop, go for it, but realize you arent going to be able to afford a lot, especially if you have a family. I can say without a doubt I would not pursue LE if I were starting out today. If I had kids, I would do everything I could to dissuade them from it. If you are hell bent on doing it, pursue federal service. Whatever BS they have to put up with is matched at the local level, however they are better compensated for it.

Don't get me wrong, I got to do a lot of cool things and had fun. But I also saw six colleagues buried and definitely got my share of screwed over. The job definitely doesnt love you back. Most guys I know who retire from local agencies have a love/hate relationship (mine is more hate/love with my former agency).
If it is possible, I would get 20, or at least a high disability rating with payments before jumping ship. We had a few retired mil in our department, and that monthly pension check made their life easier.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Getting hired wont be too big an issue right now if you try. Every agency in the state is screaming for people.

[Duces Tecum]

Deleted. Covered in an earlier posting that I missed reading.

[RJflyer]

I came over to local LE after about 5 years as an active duty mil officer. I can attest to the comments that pay/benefits in LE are no comparison to the military. It was well over a 50% pay cut for me to switch. Taking a part time Nat’l Guard spot helped in that regard, as did having a spouse with her own career/income. But if you’re the sole income earner in your family and have kids, I’d be hesitant to make the jump until you get your full mil retirement.

[ranger]

Cannot speak for Federal LE opportunity, but I would make sure you look closely at the "stay and get your 20 option". MIL pay and benefits while serving and MIL retirement opportunities are significant.

As far as "buying" MIL time, I spent some time in Civil Service and bought 5 years of Title 10 Army service. Well worth the "investment".

[Wake27]

I appreciate all of the feedback so far guys.


You are looking for an exciting job in LE like SWAT starting with a bad knee?

Yes, but I don't know how bad it will be yet. Its a weird injury and it will take some time to figure out how much it will affect me going forward because I have been relatively gentle with it while its healed over the last year.

[HCM]

Depending on how bad you knee is you may want to stay in the .MIL.

As far as salary goes you are going to want a job which is journeyman a LE /6c GS 13. Some options would be FBI, DEA, ATF and ICE/HSI. With all of these though you are looking at an initial pay cut and no guarantee of getting exactly where you want to go. At least initially. If you are willing to do a hardship tour on the border or in the case of the FBI in Indian Country for a few years you can get the location you want.

USSS and FAMS are both hard on their people. USMS is actually a very small agency so odds of getting in are low. Many of the OIG postitionsyou will see in USA jobs are filled with prior 1811s from bigger agencies, particularly USSS. If you are not part of the USSS “mafia” the odds are not in your favor.

Regarding retirement, under FERS retirement is based on the average of your three highest years, for regular civil service time you get 1% of the average for each year of service. Under the “6c” or “covered” LE/Firefighter retirement you get 1.7% of the average for each of the first 20 years of service.

You must do 20 years of 6c/LE Service to get the higher 1.7 % rate. Any 6c/LE Service beyond 20 years reverts to the standard 1% rate. Any military time bought back or prior non 6c/LE civil service time is also at 1%.

So with 10 years military you could do 20 additional years and retire with 44% of the average of your high 3 years. 20 x 1.7% = 34% plus 10% for your buy back MIL time. Plus your TSP and social security.

It’s going to be hard to find a state or local agency in a free state which can match the pay and retirement of the .GOV.

[andre3k]

I would stick it out in Army if I were you. If you're set on being the police then try a few ridealongs with the type of agencies you'd like to work for. The larger the department you work for the more opportunities you will have for advancement and working in different divisions.

If you go to a local agency you will take a pay cut. Rookie pay at any agency wont be the greatest. But pay is across the board and not all agencies pay peanuts. Instead of focusing on starting pay see what your salary will be in 5 years. Also take a look at educational pay, shift differential, overtime, extra-employment (a big deal in some locales), take home rides and insurance costs. Since you're pretty far along in your Army career I would try to find a place that has 20 year retirement.

[Rick62]

I would lean heavily towards staying for your 20. That said, there are some things to consider:

- Pay/Benefits- will vary greatly, unless we're talking the .fed agencies. As an example, my place hired a couple of guys that grew up here and had moved to VA for LE jobs. They came back when they could, and their first year made more than what their LTs made in VA. When comparing pay rates, don't just look at what your starting rate is; see what full rate is, and how long it takes to get there. Also, consider what the folks on the job actually make. Base pay won't accurately reflect OT and court time. Some may not factor in holiday pay and various other money that's "built in" to the contract. Also consider the retirement terms, (20? 25? 30 years?) how the retirement figures are calculated and the health of the retirement system vs it's future obligations.

- Speaking of a contract... the entire union/ non-union conversation could be an entire thread by itself. Which employment situation is "better" is largely subjective. I'll just say that it's something you should consider when looking at agencies. Be aware that the dynamics of the labor/management/public/political relationship in LE can be somewhat unique.

- Rewarding/fulfilling- this part's up to you. The job, like all others, is what you make of it. Don't look for it to fill some void within you. (Not saying that's what you're looking for, but people with unrealistic expectations don't do well in this line of work, generally speaking)

I've left out quite a bit that would be better left for PM. If you or anyone else wants to pick my brain, feel free.

Regardless of how this plays out for you, I hope you end up in a good place for you and your family.

[muddychi]

Am a retired active duty O-5 currently working as a mil contractor. Recommend that you take a hard look at FAs that may interest you. FA's 30,40, 49, 51, 57, 59 and contracting officer offer opportunities after retirement. You will work on a staff for the rest of your career but can still find some interesting assignments that allow you to make major contributions. Challenge you may have is that the Army has been cutting sling on officers who are medically non deployable. Am on the global, PM me for contact info if you wish to discuss further.

[psalms144.1]

I'm located in a Reserve Center, and I can tell you that, in accordance with latest guidance from SECDEF, they're tossing long-term medically restricted members out with pitch forks now. Effective a couple months back, if you have a medical condition that makes you inelligible to deploy to a combat zone that lasts more than 12 months, you MUST be administratively separated. So, staying in the Army might not be a long term solution for the OP.

[luckyman]

I'm located in a Reserve Center, and I can tell you that, in accordance with latest guidance from SECDEF, they're tossing long-term medically restricted members out with pitch forks now. Effective a couple months back, if you have a medical condition that makes you inelligible to deploy to a combat zone that lasts more than 12 months, you MUST be administratively separated. So, staying in the Army might not be a long term solution for the OP.

Dammit.

I kinda understand, but I wish the way the world worked was that they would pitch out the ones that never went in harm’s way to make room for those who have already sacrificed their bodies to continue to contribute in other ways if they desire.

Well that’s not quite it either because I also respect the sacrifices that everyone have made, but you get my point.

Edited: my terminology was bugging me.

[LSP552]

Dammit.

I kinda understand, but I wish the way the world worked was that they would pitch out the ones that never went in harm’s way to make room for those who have already sacrificed their bodies to continue to contribute in other ways if they desire.

Well that’s not quite it either because I also respect the sacrifices that everyone have made, but you get my point.

Edited: my terminology was bugging me.

Pretty sure the new deploy or out guidelines exempt WIA.

[luckyman]

Pretty sure the new deploy or out guidelines exempt WIA.

1. Oh good. In the post I was replying to it was sounding like that was not the case.

2. I was also thinking about stuff like jacked-up backs from humping heavy rucks all the time, etc., not just WIA

[psalms144.1]

1. Oh good. In the post I was replying to it was sounding like that was not the case.

2. I was also thinking about stuff like jacked-up backs from humping heavy rucks all the time, etc., not just WIABuddy of mine has been dealing with a long term neck/back injury from an MRAP rollover in Afghanistan back in the day. He got the word a couple weeks back that he can medically retire or be processed out. No other options.

[Wake27]

So I've been talking to a few different guys on the federal side and it does sound like that would be a better fit for me. However, the length of the hiring process is concerning as timing that with ETS from the Army would likely be difficult. Assuming it takes 2-3 years to get picked up, what are the thoughts of working for a local or state agency in the meantime? I'm wondering if that's pretty common or if its a giant middle finger to the agency for jumping ship in such a short time.

[LSP552]

Buddy of mine has been dealing with a long term neck/back injury from an MRAP rollover in Afghanistan back in the day. He got the word a couple weeks back that he can medically retire or be processed out. No other options.

That just sucks. No other way to say it.

[LSP552]

So I've been talking to a few different guys on the federal side and it does sound like that would be a better fit for me. However, the length of the hiring process is concerning as timing that with ETS from the Army would likely be difficult. Assuming it takes 2-3 years to get picked up, what are the thoughts of working for a local or state agency in the meantime? I'm wondering if that's pretty common or if its a giant middle finger to the agency for jumping ship in such a short time.

Many of my Fed LE buddies had prior law enforcement experience. It’s also not uncommon for states to take a yr or more to hire also. At least in Louisiana, local agencies seem to have a much quicker hiring process. I know my old agency, Louisiana State Police, hired a lit of veterans, some after mil retirement. While Fed LE still has a max hiring age, local and state typically doesn’t.

LSP’s pay is pretty good and they have the best retirement system in the country. 3.3% a yr and you can retire at 100% salary. Finding a local or state agency that you could be happy with for awhile isn’t a bad idea.

Best of luck!

[JAD]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I hope this isn’t a derailment but have you considered a federal position as a Contracting Officer? You can look at the 1102 series, Contract Specialist. As an active duty logistics officer, you may already be, or may be able to work on your DAWIA contracting certification while active duty.

I’m a former Army EM from the Stone Age, retired Louisiana State Police Capt, who currently works as a Contract Specialist for the Army Contracting Command. There is a real sense of mission where I work. Just wanted to toss that out to you if you decide law enforcement isn’t where you want to go.

If I was starting a LE career today, it would be Federal for sure. Good luck!

Feel free to PM me if you want additional information on the 1102 series.

Also, from an industry perspective, COs are very attractive to us when they exit as corresponding contracting executives.

[Hambo]

Speaking only for municipal LE, the hiring process takes a while and there may be age limits. Both PD and FD where I worked required that you could not be hired once you turned 31. City, county, and state pensions are all different so you have to check by the area or department you're interested in. During probation you will be in patrol, and at least a few more years after that before you have a chance to do anything else. Bigger departments have more opportunities, but more competition for those spots.

Departments will see your maturity and experience as pros, while seeing your age and bad knee as cons. The city admin where I worked was acutely aware of how much they were paying in work comp and always looking to reduce it. Hiring a pre-injured guy in one of two departments (PD/FD) where everybody gets hurt eventually would not have happened.

If I had your experience today, I wouldn't even consider local LE.

[HCM]

So I've been talking to a few different guys on the federal side and it does sound like that would be a better fit for me. However, the length of the hiring process is concerning as timing that with ETS from the Army would likely be difficult. Assuming it takes 2-3 years to get picked up, what are the thoughts of working for a local or state agency in the meantime? I'm wondering if that's pretty common or if its a giant middle finger to the agency for jumping ship in such a short time.

The time the process takes will vary depending on the agency and if they have the funding and desire to hire. Often hiring in fed agencies is cyclic. They will hire like mad for a year or two then a trickle of even no new hires for a year or two (or a few).

If you “catch the wave” you could get in within 6 months to a year. Coming fresh out of the .Mil and /or having a current security clearance can help.

[JRB]

Another path to consider is transitioning from Active Duty to Guard/Reserve and going AGR, which will keep you on active duty orders and potentially get you to your 20. O3/O4+ AGR slots can be very competitive but it's a very chill gig compared to Active Duty. If you don't get AGR, there are Military Technician (Miltech) GS positions in USAR/ANG organizations in a variety of lanes that can make use of your 90A background. Those GS positions require you to be in a Reserve or Guard unit but they're an effective bridge to keep your existing clearances and keep you busy while you apply for other GS positions within other organizations. Once you're a GS employee, it's a lot easier to get into other GS positions even in totally different organizations.

Whatever you do, I would emphatically recommend staying on somehow until your 20 and retiring from there. Avoid a permanent profile and continue to pass an APFT and you'll be fine with current force reduction guidelines. If you do get RIF'd take the medical retirement if you can. MEB's take forever but with supporting documentation and LOD's you will walk away with something to show for it - not as much as the retirement in most cases, but something.

[psalms144.1]

Some agencies are 2-3 years, some hire on the spot. My agency is finalizing funding for a 50% (yes, FIFTY PERCENT) increase in agent billets over the next several years, so we'll be in a hire-palooza. My counterparts in DCIS hire at the SAC level, as does the civilian side of Army CID, so, whenever there's a vacancy, hiring is pretty streamlined.

Having said all that, START NOW. If you haven't already, create an account on USAJOBS, set up a daily search, and have a competent CIVILIAN review your resume. Then apply for EVERYTHING that catches your eye. I was hired straight out of the Army into a GS13 job that I knew I wasn't "qualified" for, but the hiring agency disagreed. Let them tell you no...