5 rounds of .38 or 7 rounds of 22 mag?

[JCS]

Curious on people’s thoughts on this topic. For a j frame, rule 1 gun would you prefer 5 rounds of 38, 7 rounds of 22 mag or even 8 rounds of .22?

I’ve seen some well respected dudes, Caleb Giddings, Claude Werner and John Johnston all recently discuss carrying 22 revolvers.

Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?

ETA: For my purposes this gun would fill a specific role. More of a rule 1 gun. Not a primary carry piece but a supplemental carry piece to larger and more effective firearms.

[willie]

My opinion is that .22 ammo, regular or magnum, can not bring about incapacitation that we seek. I say that probability of achieving this aim is greater with .38 ammo than .22 ammo. Best of both worlds can be had by practicing more with the .22 but carrying the .38. If I had to have more rounds, then I would carry two .38 J's. There are some who post here who have extremely high skill levels. MAS is one. He and a few others could hit an oponent's eye sockets. So for them caliber is moot. Not so much for the rest of us. Me? I've carried .22's, 25 auto's, and 32's.
When I did, I knew better but opted for convenience. And having unqualified status, I was not setting a bad example.

[mtnbkr]

My opinion is that .22 ammo, regular or magnum, can not bring about incapacitation that we seek. I say that probability of achieving this aim is greater with .38 ammo than .22 ammo. Best of both worlds can be had by practicing more with the .22 but carrying the .38. If I had to have more rounds, then I would carry two .38 J's. There are some who post here who have extremely high skill levels. MAS is one. He and a few others could hit an oponent's eye sockets. So for them caliber is moot. Not so much for the rest of us. Me? I've carried .22's, 25 auto's, and 32's.
When I did, I knew better but opted for convenience. And having unqualified status, I was not setting a bad example.

I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but is worth consideration, especially if you can't handle or conceal more gun.

That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

[JHC]

I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but is worth consideration, especially if you can't handle or conceal more gun.

That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

The scale of Claude's research on this is pretty impressive. The way I have judged it, for the majority of folks who just want the minimum and most common scenarios covered at close range, I think this has merit. My wife can drill her 351C long after she would be putting up a similar .38. I'm not sure this ease of use is even more important than the capacity difference. But if Claude's info is solid (and I've never seen it debunked) then 5 or 7 should be GTG for this "average" scenario.

I have been working on skills to manage outlier scenarios for decades so I won't be without a service pistol more than a handful of days/year.

[ragnar_d]

Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?
There's another consideration too. Weight. The 638 I carry often is 14.6 ounces, the 351C/43C I was looking at is 11.5. Add 5 rounds of 38 Special add ~2.5 ounces, so 17.1 ounces for the 638. On the 351C, add 7 rounds of .22WMR at ~1.5 ounces and you're at 13 ounces loaded.

Recently I had the opportunity to take a 351 for a test drive and had 3-4 people shoot it as well and the reaction was unanimous among all of us, "This thing is awesome, I'm buying one."

That may not sound like much, but having tried to jog one time with a 12oz (empty) .380 . . . yeah, it's enough. Is a 351C/43C going to replace my G19 as my main EDC? Nope. Will I feel undergunned with one in my particular use for it? Not at all. It would actually be more than I carry at this time in the roll that I'd be using it in.

Also, FWIW, take a listen to the P&S Modcast Episode 168 on mouse guns and 166 on revolvers (these were probably two of my favorite episodes in recent memory). This topic came up a couple times. I'm guessing you might have listened already though from the OP.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/primaryandsecondary/p-s-166-revolver-bias

https://www.spreaker.com/user/primaryandsecondary/p-s-168-mouse-guns


With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris
Claude mentioned this recently by Claude in one of the above modcasts, but I think that could be an overblown concern. In the last year I've shot over 10,000 rounds of *recent production* 22LR and have had one round fail to fire. If I had a lot of 2013-2015 production 22LR, yeah. I'd be more worried. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

Sent from my fruit based pocket computer using Tapatalk

Disclaimer: I work in the firearms industry as a designer and engineer. My posts do not represent the opinions or positions of my employers, past or present.

[willie]

I lack credentials to counter Claude Werner's suggestions but do wonder about a couple things. Most certainly I agree that to disengage is a good tactic. I believe in retreating when possible. I carry two wallets and will happily hand over the fake one. Before standing my ground, I will walk away unless the confrontation is in my house. I must assume that the perp in Mr. Werner's example has a gun. If he has a 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Mag, or .45 Auto, can I assume that he will allow me to pepper him with my .22 and not try to kill me with his weapon? It is this aspect of such a scenario that makes me think that incapacitation is essential. It sounds as if there is an assumption that the perp will not attack when shot with a .22. I view perps as mentally unstable, addicted, and angry. Some are young, athletic, and strong--a combination making them capable of disarming another, especially an elderly person such as myself.

Please note that I am not refuting Mr. Werner's claims. Instead, I'm asking questions.

[spinmove_]

I’ve actually been going back and forth on this topic with myself quite a bit lately. Here’s my take on it as someone new to small guns in general and has never put a significant amount of rounds downrange through any kind of revolver.

Just about everyone will tell you that the 5 shot J-frame is hard to go wrong with and I generally think that’s decent wisdom. However, I hear Claude Werner and Chuck Haggard’s take and 7 and 8 shot .22 revolvers make a lot of sense. So it would seem that either choice would be OK to go with.

Personally? Given that I have so little trigger time on such a platform and shot placement is king (especially in such a platform) that having a centerfire model to practice and dryfire the crap out of is extremely valuable. Sure .22LR and .22WMR are easy and cheap to come by, but I can’t make it to the range nearly as much as I can simply go downstairs and dryfire everyday.

My first J-frame will be a 442/642. My second will probably be a 43c.


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[JCS]

My interests were piqued after listening to the mouse guns p&s podcast. I’ll check out the revolvers one now. I currently have a 442 and while I do love it For it’s role I find myself wanting something a little lighter. I don’t pocket carry very often so I’m pondering a 340pd or a 43c/351pd. Which would put them pretty close in weight or at least closer. I feel if I had a 442 and a 43c I’d never carry the 442 anymore so that’s why I’m asking the question.

[Doc_Glock]

There's another consideration too. Weight. The 638 I carry often is 14.6 ounces, the 351C/43C I was looking at is 11.5. Add 5 rounds of 38 Special add ~2.5 ounces, so 17.1 ounces for the 638. On the 351C, add 7 rounds of .22WMR at ~1.5 ounces and you're at 13 ounces loaded.

Recently I had the opportunity to take a 351 for a test drive and had 3-4 people shoot it as well and the reaction was unanimous among all of us, "This thing is awesome, I'm buying one."
.

Concur. For a pocket gun, I want something light. Currently in the market for a 351 and Bobcat.

[CCT125US]

Timely topic, as I find myself thinking about this as well. Question I bounce back and forth from are:
7 rds of .22mag / 8 rds of .22
Velocity difference between the 2, and does it truly matter.
With the .22 mag I would lean towards the Gold Dot offering
With .22, Velocitors. Does one offer much over the other coming from a short barrel in regards to expansion and penetration.

[vaglocker]

Coincidentally i also got to thinking about this after the recent podcast by P&S. Ordered a new P32 the other day that i got a a great deal on. Had 2 other ones in the past and was regretting getting rid of them. For a rule 1 gun I'm comfortable 8 shots of 32 acp. For me the p32 is the only gun that is truly pocketable comfort wise.

[mtnbkr]

Claude mentioned this recently by Claude in one of the above modcasts, but I think that could be an overblown concern. In the last year I've shot over 10,000 rounds of *recent production* 22LR and have had one round fail to fire. If I had a lot of 2013-2015 production 22LR, yeah. I'd be more worried. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

I haven't fired that much 22lr in the last few years combined, much less last year, but over the course of my life, I've had far more first strike failures with rimfire (specifically 22lr) than I have with centerfire "anything". I'll admit the percentage drops significantly with newer or better firearms, but hasn't dropped to the level of centerfire ammo. In a revolver, I'd be less concerned as I can merely pull the trigger again (unless it's the last round), but with a semi-auto, I have to perform a malfunction drill.


I lack credentials to counter Claude Werner's suggestions but do wonder about a couple things. Most certainly I agree that to disengage is a good tactic. I believe in retreating when possible. I carry two wallets and will happily hand over the fake one. Before standing my ground, I will walk away unless the confrontation is in my house. I must assume that the perp in Mr. Werner's example has a gun. If he has a 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Mag, or .45 Auto, can I assume that he will allow me to pepper him with my .22 and not try to kill me with his weapon? It is this aspect of such a scenario that makes me think that incapacitation is essential. It sounds as if there is an assumption that the perp will not attack when shot with a .22. I view perps as mentally unstable, addicted, and angry. Some are young, athletic, and strong--a combination making them capable of disarming another, especially an elderly person such as myself.

Please note that I am not refuting Mr. Werner's claims. Instead, I'm asking questions.

His point was that most criminals are looking to victimize someone, not get into a gun battle. Therefore, it doesn't take much to make them disengage and either flee or give you the opening to flee. I recall seeing a video FPF Training uses that shows a VERY determined armed robber bashing his way into a barricaded door at a convenience store (daylight, in front of witnesses). He obviously had his victims outclassed in terms of size, strength, and determination. When he finally gets through, the worker cowering on the floor shoots him once or twice with a small caliber pocket pistol she had finally managed to draw from her pocket while sitting against the door. He immediately unasses the area. Nobody else was injured.

I'm not saying all you need is a mousegun, just that there's evidence the relative power/size of the gun is less important than being armed and having the will to fight back.


Coincidentally i also got to thinking about this after the recent podcast by P&S. Ordered a new P32 the other day that i got a a great deal on. Had 2 other ones in the past and was regretting getting rid of them. For a rule 1 gun I'm comfortable 8 shots of 32 acp. For me the p32 is the only gun that is truly pocketable comfort wise.

I had a P32 back before KT introduced the P380, which was before Ruger released the LCP. Mine was 100% accurate even after I cracked the frame with HOT handloads (60gr Gold Dots at 1200fps!). KT, to their credit, replaced the frame free of charge. I eventually sold that gun for no good reason other than I bought my current J-frame, a 2005 S&W 37-2:
31445

I should have kept it because it was the better ultra-light CCW for those rare times when even the J-frame is too big or heavy.

Chris

[OlongJohnson]

My LCP is on consignment after I realized that, while I can grip it firmly enough to make usefully accurate hits (meat-clamp it, really), I can't grip it firmly enough to keep its tiny self from actually doing damage to my oversize paws when I shoot it. Haven't run into that yet with J frames; hoping it's not just because I haven't been far enough down the hole with them. And I'm relying on the changeability of revolver stocks to solve problems that may arise.

[Hizzie]

Claude on 22Mag in revolvers:
31446

Personally I’m hoping to pick up a S&W 43C 22LR (8 shots).

[mtnbkr]

My LCP is on consignment after I realized that, while I can grip it firmly enough to make usefully accurate hits (meat-clamp it, really), I can't grip it firmly enough to keep its tiny self from actually doing damage to my oversize paws when I shoot it. Haven't run into that yet with J frames; hoping it's not just because I haven't been far enough down the hole with them. And I'm relying on the changeability of revolver stocks to solve problems that may arise.

That's good to know. While I had no such problems with a P32, I have wondered what the LCP would be like. The grip feels vestigial. I don't have problems with an airweight j-frame, even with boot grips and +P loads. It may not be comfortable, but it doesn't do damage.

Chris

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Having taken Claude's snubby class, I appreciate the gun type. As posted here, I've shot the 38 SPL round in a 642 in various matches so I feel reasonably comfortable with it. I also had a SW 317 and hated the trigger. That being said with the choice of a 22 LR or mag vs. a 38/357 J - I go for, most of the time, with a SW 432 in 32 HR mag. It's light and 6 shot. Rounds are currently the Hornady Critical Defense and a speed strip of 6 extra.

The gun isn't made anymore but there are Ruger 327 LCRs.

It works as a pocket gun when dresses mandates it or a bug for the ubiquitous 9 mm EDC Glock (a few generations back now).

As a cliche, you have to shoot the thing under some pressure as in class or match. Too many Taurus 85 dudes and gals out there. Practice is a shotgun pattern at 7 yards on the square range.

[EMC]

This thread makes me want to try carrying my browning 1911-22 with 10+1 capacity just for fun. You can dump all 11 so dang fast with no recoil with that little gun.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181019/d23b79fd228febdb344490935e55e924.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

Or go with the .380 version that is externally identical.

[GuanoLoco]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

.22Mag in a short barrell is pretty much a waste except for the extra noise that MIGHT be useful.

I’m not a revo guy so no comment there, but .38spl seem a solid choice if you can accept the size/weight.

The Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT/LCP/TCP seem better options for mous gun size/weigth requirements. I have a P32 and P3AT that, after a little internal polish, have been reliable for low-volume shooting. Frankly I rarely carry either anymore.

A tiny mouse-gun P32 with Fiocchi 32 Auto 73gr FMJ ammo will put a .32” hole in 18” of gelatin IIRC, with little recoil. I don’t think you can get anywhere near that performance with 22 or .22mag from a small revolver or auto.

[John10-19]

I think the 22LR or WMR recommendation is legitimate if the person to whom it is suggested cannot handle the recoil of a standard pressure 38 wadcutter, SWC etc. If they can shoot such a standard pressure 38 special with acceptable accuracy I think it would be a mistake to drop down so far in caliber.

22LR has resulted in a lot of shootings which eventually proved fatal, but I would not feel comfortable relying on it to stop a violent attack.

If the 22 caliber round has a round tip and can't be counted on to reliably expand you are betting on up to 7-8 very small permanent wound cavities as compared to up to 5 larger permanent wound cavities benefiting the superior cutting action of a wadcutter.

I absolutely believe that a large subset of violent criminals will be stopped by displaying any gun or by shooting them with any gun. It seem improbable that any of those attackers will be less effectively addressed when confronted with a weapon with superior terminal ballistics. A smaller subset of violent criminals will only stop their attack when you shut down their body. If you're prepared for the second group the first group is also covered.

If needed, and funds allow, having a similar 22LR J frame or heavier 640 pro, SP-101 with which to train, seems like a better plan than reducing the caliber of the gun you're actually carrying.

For people with the physical and mental ability to shoot accurately while managing the recoil of a 38 Special wadcutter, I think recommending or choosing a .22 caliber revolver over a 442, M&P340, 340PD, 38 LCR etc of similar weight and size is misguided.


Curious on people’s thoughts on this topic. For a j frame, rule 1 gun would you prefer 5 rounds of 38, 7 rounds of 22 mag or even 8 rounds of .22?
...
Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?

ETA: For my purposes this gun would fill a specific role. More of a rule 1 gun. Not a primary carry piece but a supplemental carry piece to larger and more effective firearms.

[JHC]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

.22Mag in a short barrell is pretty much a waste except for the extra noise that MIGHT be useful.

I’m not a revo guy so no comment there, but .38spl seem a solid choice if you can accept the size/weight.

The Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT/LCP/TCP seem better options for mous gun size/weigth requirements. I have a P32 and P3AT that, after a little internal polish, have been reliable for low-volume shooting. Frankly I rarely carry either anymore.

A tiny mouse-gun P32 with Fiocchi 32 Auto 73gr FMJ ammo will put a .32” hole in 18” of gelatin IIRC, with little recoil. I don’t think you can get anywhere near that performance with 22 or .22mag from a small revolver or auto.

.22 solids, yeah they can pretty close albeit not .32 hole if a fmj really cuts a caliber diameter hole.

I've seen reports of velocity from snubs where the .22 mag only bests the Long Rifle by maybe a 100 fps. Some loads a little more. Some loads a little less. Pretty much a waste except, that somewhere there is the threshold where the velocity IS enough to be the difference between shit and not quite shit. I don't think anyone knows where that line is exactly. So as cheap as .22 Mag is and while more than LR it's still pretty dang cheap by the box of 50.


I've got the 351C and will have a 43C in the near future. 11-13 oz snubbies are just wicked fun.

[JCS]

Claude on 22Mag in revolvers:
31446

Personally I’m hoping to pick up a S&W 43C 22LR (8 shots).

Hmm. Thanks for sharing! Can anyone who owns a 22 mag revolver comment on their experience?

[ragnar_d]

I haven't fired that much 22lr in the last few years combined, much less last year, but over the course of my life, I've had far more first strike failures with rimfire (specifically 22lr) than I have with centerfire "anything". I'll admit the percentage drops significantly with newer or better firearms, but hasn't dropped to the level of centerfire ammo. In a revolver, I'd be less concerned as I can merely pull the trigger again (unless it's the last round), but with a semi-auto, I have to perform a malfunction drill.
From what I've experienced in the last couple years, rimfire ignition reliability has gone up considerably in the last couple years as the demand has fallen from the "OMG! THERE'S NO .22!!!111!1!1" panic that gripped us for most of Obama's second term. I've had the best luck with CCI/Federal and Remington (I had some bad lots of the latter during the 13-15 vintage). Winchester has been okay. In the last ~7500 I've shot, I've had one completely dead round (Winchester M22) and 3 CCI rounds that went off on the second strike. If I were going to pick a favorite based on past and current performance, it would be CCI/Federal and Eley.


His point was that most criminals are looking to victimize someone, not get into a gun battle. Therefore, it doesn't take much to make them disengage and either flee or give you the opening to flee. I recall seeing a video FPF Training uses that shows a VERY determined armed robber bashing his way into a barricaded door at a convenience store (daylight, in front of witnesses). He obviously had his victims outclassed in terms of size, strength, and determination. When he finally gets through, the worker cowering on the floor shoots him once or twice with a small caliber pocket pistol she had finally managed to draw from her pocket while sitting against the door. He immediately unasses the area. Nobody else was injured.
This is where the context and personal assessments come into play for me. The rimfire J-frame would be my jogging/gym shorts gun or, possibly for dispatching wayward critters as required when I move back to my version of civilization. Jogging through my sleepy suburbia neighborhood at 0530 probably won't necessitate jocking up like I'm going into Liberty City, Opa-Locka, or Hialeah so I will likely be okay with some aerosol hot sauce or a .22 J-frame.


Having taken Claude's snubby class, I appreciate the gun type. As posted here, I've shot the 38 SPL round in a 642 in various matches so I feel reasonably comfortable with it. I also had a SW 317 and hated the trigger. That being said with the choice of a 22 LR or mag vs. a 38/357 J - I go for, most of the time, with a SW 432 in 32 HR mag. It's light and 6 shot. Rounds are currently the Hornady Critical Defense and a speed strip of 6 extra.

The gun isn't made anymore but there are Ruger 327 LCRs.

It works as a pocket gun when dresses mandates it or a bug for the ubiquitous 9 mm EDC Glock (a few generations back now).

As a cliche, you have to shoot the thing under some pressure as in class or match. Too many Taurus 85 dudes and gals out there. Practice is a shotgun pattern at 7 yards on the square range.
I've been surfing GunBroker for the .327 & .32 H&R J-frames and will pull the trigger on one eventually but I'll be more likely to snag an LCR and maybe an SP101 before that. I've been wanting a 632 Pro Series for a couple years but I might as well wish for a traffic free commute in Miami, they're about equally rare. The .32 H&R and .327 Fed are two calibers I wish were more popular.



Sent from my fruit based pocket computer using Tapatalk

Disclaimer: I work in the firearms industry as a designer and engineer. My posts do not represent the opinions or positions of my employers, past or present.

[Hizzie]

I see a lot of eye shaped targets when Claude posts pics of him using his 22 snubs. That might be a clue.

[deputyG23]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

.22Mag in a short barrell is pretty much a waste except for the extra noise that MIGHT be useful.

I’m not a revo guy so no comment there, but .38spl seem a solid choice if you can accept the size/weight.

The Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT/LCP/TCP seem better options for mous gun size/weigth requirements. I have a P32 and P3AT that, after a little internal polish, have been reliable for low-volume shooting. Frankly I rarely carry either anymore.

A tiny mouse-gun P32 with Fiocchi 32 Auto 73gr FMJ ammo will put a .32” hole in 18” of gelatin IIRC, with little recoil. I don’t think you can get anywhere near that performance with 22 or .22mag from a small revolver or auto.
I would have given the Beretta Pico a whirl if the 7.65 barrel promised was made available.

[JHC]

Hmm. Thanks for sharing! Can anyone who owns a 22 mag revolver comment on their experience?

I cleaned our 351C after 200 rounds and it never got smoked up enough to bind or anything. Wheelies can go either way on that. It's trigger pull is heavy but for its intended use, it's ok by me. Win cases seem to take more effort to extract than CCI. I prefer to only use CCI.

GJM has reported in another much older thread about these rimfire snubbies that Bill Rogers shot the .22 mag j frame quite a bit and used one for a BUG but has since switched to a 9mm LCR IIRC.

I can't speak to a fleet of them. But ours is ok.


I haven't found anything to dislike about it. Here are a couple clips of shooting it. I don't find the heavy trigger that much of a handicap at these ranges (7 yds). I haven't hit shit at 25 with it though.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/25316481097/in/dateposted-public/



https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/43615599170/in/dateposted-public/

[David S.]

#disengagementpower (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=disengagementpower) .


I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but is worth consideration, especially if you can't handle or conceal more gun.

That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

[Rex G]

I agree with Claude Werner, that disengagement is the goal of the private citizen. If it is just me, on my feet, I am often quite OK with a very-low-powered firearm, now that I am retired from LEO-ing. With infant and toddler grandsons, and a wife and parents with mobility issues, however, there are times that disengagement might mean standing my ground, or moving a very short distance, along an oblique, to divert attention away from loved ones, and disengaging someone’s brain from his bodily functions.

I have not found a satisfactory answer to the .22 WMR-in-handguns question. Cumulative-trauma injury in my formerly-stronger thumb/hand/wrist has prompted me to step-down the amount of muzzle flip I find acceptable, and an injury in my opposite-side rotator cuff has interrupted my plan to switch “strong” sides, so, .38 wadcutter has become my friend. I like eight rounds of .38 HBWC, in an S&W 327 PC snub-gun, any time I can dress around the N-Frame bulk. Otherwise, I have one Airweight PC Centennial, and a pair of Airlite-Ti Centennials.

[Jim Watson]

I cannot recall the last misfire in my M18 but I have been giving it good ammo, MiniMags and other plated HV.

Not a revolver, but my S&W Plastic M&P Compact is thus far 100% on MiniMags.
I have had one malfunction, a short recoil that ejected the empty but did not pick up the next with Aquila HV.
Smaller amounts of AE and even some Golden Bullets apparently made before their reputation went south have been reliable.
It seems to be broken in well enough for good SV, too.

[Hambo]

Curious on people’s thoughts on this topic. For a j frame, rule 1 gun would you prefer 5 rounds of 38, 7 rounds of 22 mag or even 8 rounds of .22?


Five .38s or 7-8 .380s. No thanks on the .22s of any kind.

[Wheeler]

I find it interesting that a lot of the detractors of the concept of carrying a rimfire say they respect Claude and his research, then go on to express their feelings and beliefs about why they think a rimfire isn't suitable.

Here's the rub, regardless of what you carry you've got to be proficient with it. That means you have to get out and run the crap out of it and see what it's limitations are as well as your own. Only then can you really speak with any authority on the issue.

I carry a 43c as my EDC. I shoot it every trip I make to the range, which is usually three to four times per month at a minimum. I've run a crap tonne of bulk ammo through it and a fair bit of CCI Stingers. Of the 300+ rounds of Stingers I've fired this year, not a single one has failed to go bang.

Should you choose a mousegun caliber, run it hard. Shoot the drills and learn what you can and can't do. If you're worried about the trigger you can put in a standard weight mainspring like that of a 642, or shoot it a lot and learn to handle the factory trigger. Buy Claude's e-book on drills.

:)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would also say, to repeat myself, that one needs to shoot the gun in more dynamic situations than the range. Of course, range fundamentals are useful but competition is useful. Varying distances, mandatory head shots with only one allowed, reloads under time pressure, etc. Using the sights quickly is not the same as a square range exercise. Drawing from your carry method is good (if allowed).

There are two close paper targets and then a steel plate at a distance. Reload, then a target with a head shot with only one allowed and if you miss a big time penalty. When I hit the plate with a 642, I got a round of applause. Haha.

The idea of the J being a one bad guy gun vs. a more intense incident friendly semi will show up in an IDPA match. Claude shoots his snubbies very well in IDPA matches. I've shot the SW 632 quite a few times.

[BehindBlueI's]

If someone is put to flight by the sight or sound of a gun, what did capacity gain you? Make them run faster?

Unless physically incapable, carry something that will consistently and reliably break an adult's bones, which in my observations puts the floor at .380.

[Scal]

I have a 43c that I have stopped carrying, and just use it for practice/training. I was using Stingers in it, but after somewhere north of 500 rounds of them, my gun developed very bad fore/aft cylinder play....to the point where I could make the cylinder contact the barrel. That issue has since been remedied, but I believe more of that ammo will keep causing accelerated wear in the gun. Velocitor does not reliably fire in the gun, and as silly as it might sound to worry about in .22lr, I don’t know how many other loads besides those two will get 12” of penetration in ballistic media out of a short barrel.

Since then, I have gotten a 442, and I have found that I can deal with the few ounces of extra weight, and manage the recoil well enough to not want to go back to a .22 wheel gun, except as a practice gun with standard velocity ammo only.

I don’t know if other folks have had this experience with the 43c, but for me, the lack of durability in my gun wasn’t worth added convenience and saving a few ounces of weight.

[SiriusBlunder]

The OP may get something out of this thread:

The efficacy of .22 in a self defense role
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2520-The-efficacy-of-22-in-a-self-defense-role

ToddG and SLG made lots of great points.

[TGS]

The ideas discussed here are an effort to make reality conform to a persons thoughts on how a fight should go.....and not making your choices conform to reality.

[BehindBlueI's]

Let me flip the question. Rimfire advocates keep asking "when did terminal ballistics matter..." in both threads, this one and the 2011 one. Fine. When did capacity matter in the same situation? When did 5 rounds of .38 fail to work when an additional few rounds of rimfire would have saved the day?

Most random attacker, the vast majority in fact, are not dedicated to the assault. Stipulated. Then what does an extra 3, or 50, rounds get you? They ran at the first sign of the draw, they ran at the first sound of gunfire, they ran at the first injury. I've often said that based on my stats you can win about 1/3 of these encounters with a starter pistol.

The problem is the dedicated attacker or the attacker who *can't* flee. He's cornered in the business, etc. and has to shoot his way out. He's high and doesn't realize what's going on and just continues his actions (people have been shot and INGORED THE SHOOTER TO CONTINUE THEIR "MISSION", particularly the violently mentally ill) Maybe you're such a fantastic shooter that you can, on demand and under fight or flight response, ear canal/eye socket shot the bad guy. But most of us aren't, and most of the people who read this aren't, and most of the people we recommend guns to aren't. Hence I want a gun that can break bones because I get that I might not have a head shot available even if I can make those shots on demand. I might have to shoot someone in the back and their spine or back of the skull is my best target while they are murdering someone else. I might have to shoot at a shin from under a car or a forearm that's sticking around a corner because that's all the target I have of someone actively murdering others or trying to murder me. Center mass is center of whatever the target is. Neither a .38 nor a .22 is likely to kill via an extremity injury, but which degrades the opponent's ability to fight more, a small hole through the meat, or a small hole through the meat and a broken bone?

How many bad guys flee but fire a shot or two as they leave? I'm not in front of my stats, but more than zero. From memory, maybe 15%-ish. Want to roll the dice? You put them to flight, it's un-aimed fire and you're *probably* not going to get hit. How much degradation of their ability to fire those shots would you like if your life and/or the people you are protecting's life is up to the random chance of where those bullets go.

It's in the "better than nothing" and "more likely to work then not" camp if you are not the target of a dedicated attacker. However the supposed benefit of extra capacity is much less likely to be useful in a real world fight then the ability to degrade an opponent via crippling injury that a .38/.380 + can provide.

The .22 is for people who are physically incapable of shooting larger calibers. Severe arthritis has set in and it's painful and flinch inducing to shoot something else. Tendons are damaged and the hand is impaired to the point recoil is physically damaging to the shooter. Etc.

[TGS]

The ideas discussed here are an effort to make reality conform to a persons thoughts on how a fight should go.....and not making your choices conform to reality.

Just to expand on this:


I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.



If I shoot someone, it's not to arrest them. I get that a LEO shooting someone can legally be framed as a seizure under the 4th Amendment, but I'm not shooting them to seize them: I'm shooting them to stop them from causing greivous bodily harm to myself or another person. Similarly, when I wasnt a LEO I didn't carry a goddamned gun to ward off muggers; I carried a gun to do the same thing I carry a gun now as a LEO: to incapacitate someone as rapidly and reliably as possible so they don't kill me or mine. Before I go on, one of the reasons this whole train of thought on scaring off the attacker is bullshit is because it's framed on the idea of warding off muggers. That's disingenious bullshit; we don't get to choose what their motivations or dedication to follow-through is. By virtue of carrying a gun, can we all agree that to begin with we're not in the business of planning for best possible scenario?

Back to LEO vs civilian; Ain't no different for Joe Civilian. If you have to shoot someone, then you should be using something that has a well defined modicum of ability to incapacitate as extremely well studied and established by people like Martin Fackler, DocGKR, the IWBA and FBI.

If Joe Scumbag decides to class himself in the category of "psychological stop", then that's his choice and merrier all around. That doesn't mean we should be basing our choices around it and assuming he will be....we, both LEOs and private citizens, should still seek to carry something that will reliably stop him physiologically. We don't get to choose for him to give up; sometimes we have to make them give up by way of cardiovascular decompression, lack of oxygenation, or a disruption of the CNS.

To suggest otherwise is just naieve and irresponsible, regardless of who says it.

[Wheeler]

Just to expand on this:





If I shoot someone, it's not to arrest them. I get that a LEO shooting someone can legally be framed as a seizure under the 4th Amendment, but I'm not shooting them to seize them: I'm shooting them to stop them from causing greivous bodily harm to myself or another person. Similarly, when I wasnt a LEO I didn't carry a goddamned gun to ward off muggers; I carried a gun to do the same thing I carry a gun now as a LEO: to incapacitate someone as rapidly and reliably as possible so they don't kill me or mine. Before I go on, one of the reasons this whole train of thought on scaring off the attacker is bullshit is because it's framed on the idea of warding off muggers. That's disingenious bullshit; we don't get to choose what their motivations or dedication to follow-through is. By virtue of carrying a gun, can we all agree that to begin with we're not in the business of planning for best possible scenario?

Back to LEO vs civilian; Ain't no different for Joe Civilian. If you have to shoot someone, then you should be using something that has a well defined modicum of ability to incapacitate as extremely well studied and established by people like Martin Fackler, DocGKR, the IWBA and FBI.

If Joe Scumbag decides to class himself in the category of "psychological stop", then that's his choice and merrier all around. That doesn't mean we should be basing our choices around it and assuming he will be....we, both LEOs and private citizens, should still seek to carry something that will reliably stop him physiologically. We don't get to choose for him to give up; sometimes we have to make them give up by way of cardiovascular decompression, lack of oxygenation, or a disruption of the CNS.

To suggest otherwise is just naieve and irresponsible, regardless of who says it.

There's a preponderance of evidence that disagrees with your opinion. Especially when you presume your opinion is the only reality that matters.

[LSP552]

BBl’s post is spot on. I was in a shooting where the other guy took a .38 Spl 125 +P Rem HP from a J-frame to the forearm just above the elbow. Dude was wearing a leather jacket. The bullet fell out of the sleeve later, having penetrated one side and shattered both bones then stopped against the other side of the sleeve. The bullet did not penetrate through to the chest. But, he also didn’t fire a shot while I was able to fire a couple more.

Would a .22 have shattered both bones in the forearm? I wonder, pretty sure not. Would the drug dealer trying to rip me off in the UC buy have gotten a round off if I hadn’t shattered his forearm early in the fight, probably so. I’d been a hard target to miss since we were both in the front seat of a UC ride.

[BillSWPA]

I believe completely in carrying the most capable reasonable choice under the circumstances, and given a choice between .38 and .22, I will pick .38 the vast majority of the time. However, my wife would be significantly more likely to carry something much more frequently if I had focused a lot less on minimum caliber requirements and a lot more on the first rule of a gunfight.

If someone can shoot one considerably more accurately than the other, I place more confidence in accuracy than in any other component of stopping power.

If something smaller, with more capacity and less recoil than a .38 is desired, the above mentioned Kel-Ted P-32 is an excellent choice, particularly with Wolff 11 lb. recoil springs and a Crimson Trace LaserGuard.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP552]

I’d go G42 in .380 long before I’d go .22 J-Frame.

[olstyn]

There's a preponderance of evidence that disagrees with your opinion. Especially when you presume your opinion is the only reality that matters.

TGS can correct me if I'm misinterpreting his words here, but I believe he meant that preparing for the "average" criminal may leave you wanting if you find yourself in a situation where the criminal is not average, and that therefore it's better to carry a more capable gun/caliber whenever possible. I have a hard time refuting that logic.

Is a .22 snubbie better than a sharp stick? Sure, but let's not pretend it's the same thing as carrying a 9mm/.40/.45 service pistol either. If you choose to carry a rimfire gun, you're choosing to accept a lower level of capability, end of story. Will it work out fine for you? Most of the time, probably yes, but on the other hand, by carrying a gun at all, you're acknowledging the possibility of things going sideways in a very non-average way. There's a logical disconnect for me between that and saying "the average defensive gun use involves less than 5 rounds, so I'll be fine with <insert whatever the person thinks is "enough" and no reloads here>."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

G42. That's my other pocket gun. I've sometimes worn it OWB for a lighter footprint. Usual and preferred EDC is a Glock 9mm and an extra mag, BTW.

I wanted to comment on the use of the preponderance of the evidence. That's interesting as it brings up the tendency of folks to plan for the central tendency of events and not look at the extreme risk cut off criterion. Depending on distribution shape, a measure of central tendency describes a cut off that encompasses a large proportion of events. However, it doesn't mean that value always happens. The 3,3,3 rule is cited as it is what always happens. However, do you worry about the extremes of the incident distribution. Do you plan for the anomaly or 5 percent tail (as in stat class)? That's what folks are saying who advocate that the lighter rounds are for those who can't handle more or some specifics of dress necessitate that sort of gun.

Preponderance means you are assuming that the central tendency is likely (true) but you don't value the ability to deal with the extremes or anomaly.

The use of averages as compared to considering the entire distribution is someting of a controversy as researchers are moving away from the old parameter, linear model statistics. Glad I don't have to teach that anymore.

As far as anomalies - it's as rare as being hit by lightning or being in a plane crash. I've been hit by lightning and a friend survived a DC-8 coming down in a forest. In a class, the teacher said: It's as rare...

We both raised our hands - Yoohoo!

[Wheeler]

TGS can correct me if I'm misinterpreting his words here, but I believe he meant that preparing for the "average" criminal may leave you wanting if you find yourself in a situation where the criminal is not average, and that therefore it's better to carry a more capable gun/caliber whenever possible. I have a hard time refuting that logic.

Is a .22 snubbie better than a sharp stick? Sure, but let's not pretend it's the same thing as carrying a 9mm/.40/.45 service pistol either. If you choose to carry a rimfire gun, you're choosing to accept a lower level of capability, end of story. Will it work out fine for you? Most of the time, probably yes, but on the other hand, by carrying a gun at all, you're acknowledging the possibility of things going sideways in a very non-average way. There's a logical disconnect for me between that and saying "the average defensive gun use involves less than 5 rounds, so I'll be fine with <insert whatever the person thinks is "enough" and no reloads here>."

The insistance that caliber and capacity along with the ability to reload rapidly are replacements for capability never cease to amaze me. It’s almost as ludicrous as the belief that we as private citizens will be fighting off multiple waves of attackers he’ll bent on stealing our iPhones and debit cards.

[olstyn]

The instance that caliber and capacity along with the ability to reload rapidly are replacements for capability never cease to amaze me. It’s almost as ludicrous as the belief that we as private citizens will be fighting off multiple waves of attackers he’ll bent on stealing our iPhones and debit cards.

*sigh*

Nobody in this thread seems to be suggesting that higher caliber rounds or higher capacity weapons are a substitute for skill. What I'm saying is that given the option, I'd prefer to have both in addition to skill. Who ever walked away from a gunfight and said "boy, I wish I'd been carrying a smaller gun that had less ammo on board?" Can .22LR get the job done some portion of the time? Sure, nobody's denying that. Is it the wisest choice, presuming you don't have a physical limitation that prevents you from carrying something bigger? In my opinion at least, no.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Anecdote again - in two threat street situations (one potentially very lethal) - the number of bad guys was 4 in a car. Another with an unknown number in an 'interrogating' SUV at a trailhead. Attitude and guile avoided what might have been bad.

[mtnbkr]

I believe completely in carrying the most capable reasonable choice under the circumstances
I think that is the core of Claude's statements. Additionally, for many folks there are factors in weapon selection that may trump terminal effectiveness and capacity. Physical capability, dress standards, etc, may force you to downsize. I'm lucky that I'm able to work from home and pack a G19 while "at work". Most of my daily activities here in town don't preclude me from going armed in the same manner. That wasn't the case a few years ago when I had to go into an office daily.


The ideas discussed here are an effort to make reality conform to a persons thoughts on how a fight should go.....and not making your choices conform to reality.
Not everyone's reality is the same. They have different risk profiles, social circles, and environments.


The problem is the dedicated attacker or the attacker who *can't* flee. He's cornered in the business, etc. and has to shoot his way out. He's high and doesn't realize what's going on and just continues his actions (people have been shot and INGORED THE SHOOTER TO CONTINUE THEIR "MISSION", particularly the violently mentally ill)
For the average citizen who is not engaged in illicit activities, how often is the case? Seems it isn't too common based on what I read.


Neither a .38 nor a .22 is likely to kill via an extremity injury, but which degrades the opponent's ability to fight more, a small hole through the meat, or a small hole through the meat and a broken bone?
Really no handgun is much of a fight stopper unless the shot is good. Even then, there are anecdotes of failures to stop with major calibers. I think we get too wound up on calibers based on corner cases or lifestyles/vocations that provide a different risk profile.


Before I go on, one of the reasons this whole train of thought on scaring off the attacker is bullshit is because it's framed on the idea of warding off muggers.
I don't think that's what anyone is saying at all. What they're saying is the if the attacker leaves, whether or not he is dealt a mortal wound, is unable to fight back, or even needs to seek medical care, and the immediate danger is over, this is a "win" for the armed citizen. Whether or not this takes a 45acp to the chest or drawing a 22lr revolver is not the point. Additionally, per Claude's database, many (most?) incidents resulting in a deployed or fired weapon result in such a "win" for the victim regardless of caliber. That's a different statement than saying you only need to scare off a mugger and only need a mousegun to do it.


That's disingenious bullshit; we don't get to choose what their motivations or dedication to follow-through is. By virtue of carrying a gun, can we all agree that to begin with we're not in the business of planning for best possible scenario?
True, but what is the extent of what we're planning for? How far do we need to take it and does that not need to be balanced against other factors? Taken to ridiculous extreme, if we're planning for the absolute worst, why are we even talking handguns? Why not long guns and soft armor? Yeah, it's a silly statement, but for some folks' circumstances, packing a large handgun might be as un-achievable as a long gun. I think that's the general point of Claude's statements on the matter. Not that all anyone needs is a 22, but that you can be adequately prepared without kitting up with a service-sized weapon and multiple mags.

Ultimately, I'm not even part of this fight as my personal minimum is a j-frame 38 with my ideal being a G19 whenever the permissible dress expectation supports it. I have been considering an LCP for where even a j-frame is too big or heavy, but I may resolve that issue with a better holster (for less money too!).

Chris

[psalms144.1]

Wow - this thread has gone off the rails, as expected when folks get their pet rocks insulted. Let's ask Tom Givens, who has probably the widest range of experience with CIVILIAN self defense shootings, to weigh in. If I recall, the last time I heard him opine on the subject, he said words to the effect of "carry the largest most capable pistol you can," meaning the most capable pistol you WILL CARRY all the time. If that's a .22LR J-frame, GREAT! If that's an HK45 loaded with 45 Super, GREAT!

But, there's a difference between having a "show me" pistol that scares off an attacker, and a FIGHTING pistol that allows you to deal with a dedicated, mission-focused threat.

For my money, the only time a .22LR j-frame makes sense is for someone who lacks the grip strength to work the slide on a .380/.32 pistol, and can't handle the recoil of .38 WC. I can't imagine that three extra .22LR rounds in the cylinder is going to be a game changer over the .38, unless you're a former Mossad agent and spent your whole life training to put those rounds into the eye socket/behind the ear/under the chin of your target...

[BillSWPA]

I think that is the core of Claude's statements. Additionally, for many folks there are factors in weapon selection that may trump terminal effectiveness and capacity. Physical capability, dress standards, etc, may force you to downsize. I'm lucky that I'm able to work from home and pack a G19 while "at work". Most of my daily activities here in town don't preclude me from going armed in the same manner. That wasn't the case a few years ago when I had to go into an office daily.


Not everyone's reality is the same. They have different risk profiles, social circles, and environments.

Chris

Exactly, and a point I have made many times elsewhere.

I spent 10 years carrying daily in places where it was legal but where getting caught could have carried serious consequences. I started with a .22 mini revolver, followed by a P-32, North American Arms .380, and finally Kel-Tec .380. The presence of that NAA .380 prevented at least one mugging. In an NPE I will pick something really small.

I have worked with numerous people with hand or wrist issues, or with nothing wrong other than high sensitivity to recoil. Giving such a person a lightweight .38 snub is the worst possible (within reason) mistake.

The part of my post you quoted was not the main point but the context for the remainder of the post. My main point - which I probably should have stated much more directly - is that focusing too much on caliber and not enough on first rule of a gunfight is going to leave people completely unarmed far more often than it leads them to a more capable choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wheeler]

*sigh*

Nobody in this thread seems to be suggesting that higher caliber rounds or higher capacity weapons are a substitute for skill. What I'm saying is that given the option, I'd prefer to have both in addition to skill. Who ever walked away from a gunfight and said "boy, I wish I'd been carrying a smaller gun that had less ammo on board?" Can .22LR get the job done some portion of the time? Sure, nobody's denying that. Is it the wisest choice, presuming you don't have a physical limitation that prevents you from carrying something bigger? In my opinion at least, no.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I’m still looking at the facts presented by Claude and Chuck. Those mean more to me than the opinions of folks on the internet. Now if you were to present me with your data I’d be more interested to give your comments more credence. As it is we’re talking past each other.

Have a good day.

[Hambo]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I’m still looking at the facts presented by Claude and Chuck. Those mean more to me than the opinions of folks on the internet. Now if you were to present me with your data I’d be more interested to give your comments more credence. As it is we’re talking past each other.

Have a good day.

I think you need to search for BehindBlueI's data and Tom Givens data. Then make whatever decision you think is best for you.

[Wheeler]

I think you need to search for BehindBlueI's data and Tom Givens data. Then make whatever decision you think is best for you.

I’ve already made my decision. I suppose it’s hard to believe that folks could look at their data and still come up with a different conclusion, but I didn’t look at their data alone.

Here’s an interesting conundrum for you, Tom Givens is not a big proponent of a five shot J frame as a primary piece and yet every shooting problem in his Lessons From The Street could have been solved with....wait for it...a five shot J frame. So when you start quoting data from a source it’s prudent to consider all the data from said source, not only that which fits a set of preconceived notions.

[Gun Mutt]

Post that your wife daily carries either a G42 or a 351c, that she can do mag/cylinder dumps into the size of a playing card on demand and they beat a path to the like button.

Tell them you wish you'd bought another 351c for yourself instead of a 442...well, they sure don't call you a bridge builder.

[willie]

I have a nice Beretta .25 Auto that has never malfunctioned. Would Mr. Werner say that it would serve the same purpose as a J frame .22?

[sharps54]

I have a nice Beretta .25 Auto that has never malfunctioned. Would Mr. Werner say that it would serve the same purpose as a J frame .22?

The problem with the .25 is lack of penetration (yes proper .22 LR loads penetrate deeper) and unless it is a 21A the time it takes to get it into action unless you trust and practice with the tiny safety.

[BillSWPA]

Re: .22 v. .25:

I have seen two FMJ bullets from a .25 auto penetrate a wooden target frame 3/16", and then drop to the ground in front of the target frame undamaged. A .22 lr. from a North American Arms mini revolver with a 1 1/8" barrel (same effective rifled portion as the .25) will drive a bullet completely into the same wood, but not out the other side (cannot recall the thickness but it would have likely been about 1" to 1 1/4"). A 5.5" Browning Buck Mark will drive the same .22 bullet completely through the same wood.

Here is some data for the 1 1/8" barrel .22.

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/ball-22lr/

So, without having a 2" barrel .22 to conduct a test, I would guess that a .22 from a 2" barrel is going to penetrate better than it will from my mini-revolver, but not as well as from the Buck Mark. Regarding the difference between .22 lr. and .22 magnum, here are some tables showing results from the same 2" barrel gun. The .22 magnum definitely appears to offer a small but definite advantage on paper.

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/ball-bwl/

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/ball-bwm/

I have had as many issues with centerfire ammo reliability as I have rimfire ammo reliability. If you are buying quality ammo (which in my experience includes Federal or Winchester bulk packs) rimfire v. centerfire is a complete non-issue.

If a .25 is what I had then I would go with it, but I would never choose one when an equivalent .22 is available.

[BehindBlueI's]

Really no handgun is much of a fight stopper unless the shot is good. Even then, there are anecdotes of failures to stop with major calibers. I think we get too wound up on calibers based on corner cases or lifestyles/vocations that provide a different risk profile.

Read this (emphasis added):


BBl’s post is spot on. I was in a shooting where the other guy took a .38 Spl 125 +P Rem HP from a J-frame to the forearm just above the elbow. Dude was wearing a leather jacket. The bullet fell out of the sleeve later, having penetrated one side and shattered both bones then stopped against the other side of the sleeve. The bullet did not penetrate through to the chest. But, he also didn’t fire a shot while I was able to fire a couple more.

Would a .22 have shattered both bones in the forearm? I wonder, pretty sure not. Would the drug dealer trying to rip me off in the UC buy have gotten a round off if I hadn’t shattered his forearm early in the fight, probably so. I’d been a hard target to miss since we were both in the front seat of a UC ride.

That's the difference. This isn't some bullshit .45 vs .40 vs 9mm Internet fight. The rimfire cartridges don't reliably break bone. Breaking bones sometimes matters. Forearm and hand hits are rather prevalent in gun fights do to target fixation. As LSP552's incident illustrates my point exactly, a bit more capacity during a close range gun fight isn't worth the trade off.

Like I said earlier, about 1/3 of gun fights could be won with a starter pistol. I completely get that capacity and terminal ballistics don't matter in many, perhaps even a majority of cases. I also if I have a choice of a piece of equipment that saves my life 85% of the time vs 70% of the time which one I'm going to pick. This isn't a Glock 21 vs J-frame argument. This is j-frame vs j-frame. You're not giving anything up to stay with a cartridge that will break bone vs a rimfire, and what you gain with a rimfire isn't worth it.

Edited to add: And, as a matter of coincidence Mas mentioned an incident in MAG-40 today remarkably similar to LSP552's. Broken forearm bones, although in that instance it ruined the bad guy's ability to reload, leaving him with an empty gun.


Thanks for sharing your opinion. I’m still looking at the facts presented by Claude and Chuck. Those mean more to me than the opinions of folks on the internet. Now if you were to present me with your data I’d be more interested to give your comments more credence. As it is we’re talking past each other.

Have a good day.

I've investigated hundreds and hundreds of shootings as lead or assisting detective. My (now former) office is busy enough I've responded to two separate unrelated shootings on the same shift often enough it's not remarkable. I kept stats of random non-criminal self defense shootings, culling out domestics, criminal on criminal, LE, etc. The initial stats are available on this forum somewhere or other. My final stats, which contains about 90 such incidents, are not publicly available and I'm keeping them proprietary at this time as I am considering publishing them as part of a more comprehensive series of articles or book. Every single incident is one I worked personally or a detective in my office worked and I could talk to, see the case file, etc. It is not from combing through a mass of shootings, it is from specific incidents I could prove met that criteria and that I could know what really happened, not a UCR stat or media account. If you value that or not or believe that has any value or not is up to you. However I feel confident in my background and level of expertise in this particular arena of civilian gun fights vs random criminals.


Re: .22 v. .25:

I have seen two FMJ bullets from a .25 auto...

I can tell you about some spectacular real world failures of the .25. My opinion of the cartridge is so low that I would honest-to-God rather have a knife for most defensive scenarios, and I am *not* a knife fighter.


I have a nice Beretta .25 Auto that has never malfunctioned. Would Mr. Werner say that it would serve the same purpose as a J frame .22?

I don't know what Mr. Werner would say, but I would say it's not even a reliable suicide gun. Even the guys who got it done were often floppers for hours. Unless the other option was a .22 short, I can't think of any caliber I hold in lower esteem. See above.

[willie]

I agree that the .25 ACP is lacking and was curious about Mr. Werner's opinion. As stated earlier, I am not qualified to dispute Mr. Werner but am entitled to an opinion which is different from his. It would take a great deal to motivate me to draw a handgun if accosted. But if that does occur, I hope like hell that it's not a .22. However, I would enjoy owning a rim fire J snub, and one day I might. I enjoy the .25 Beretta also but ain't fooling myself.

[BillSWPA]

Read this (emphasis added):



That's the difference. This isn't some bullshit .45 vs .40 vs 9mm Internet fight. The rimfire cartridges don't reliably break bone. Breaking bones sometimes matters. Forearm and hand hits are rather prevalent in gun fights do to target fixation. As LSP552's incident illustrates my point exactly, a bit more capacity during a close range gun fight isn't worth the trade off.

Like I said earlier, about 1/3 of gun fights could be won with a starter pistol. I completely get that capacity and terminal ballistics don't matter in many, perhaps even a majority of cases. I also if I have a choice of a piece of equipment that saves my life 85% of the time vs 70% of the time which one I'm going to pick. This isn't a Glock 21 vs J-frame argument. This is j-frame vs j-frame. You're not giving anything up to stay with a cartridge that will break bone vs a rimfire, and what you gain with a rimfire isn't worth it.

Edited to add: And, as a matter of coincidence Mas mentioned an incident in MAG-40 today remarkably similar to LSP552's. Broken forearm bones, although in that instance it ruined the bad guy's ability to reload, leaving him with an empty gun.



I've investigated hundreds and hundreds of shootings as lead or assisting detective. My (now former) office is busy enough I've responded to two separate unrelated shootings on the same shift often enough it's not remarkable. I kept stats of random non-criminal self defense shootings, culling out domestics, criminal on criminal, LE, etc. The initial stats are available on this forum somewhere or other. My final stats, which contains about 90 such incidents, are not publicly available and I'm keeping them proprietary at this time as I am considering publishing them as part of a more comprehensive series of articles or book. Every single incident is one I worked personally or a detective in my office worked and I could talk to, see the case file, etc. It is not from combing through a mass of shootings, it is from specific incidents I could prove met that criteria and that I could know what really happened, not a UCR stat or media account. If you value that or not or believe that has any value or not is up to you. However I feel confident in my background and level of expertise in this particular arena of civilian gun fights vs random criminals.



I can tell you about some spectacular real world failures of the .25. My opinion of the cartridge is so low that I would honest-to-God rather have a knife for most defensive scenarios, and I am *not* a knife fighter.



I don't know what Mr. Werner would say, but I would say it's not even a reliable suicide gun. Even the guys who got it done were often floppers for hours. Unless the other option was a .22 short, I can't think of any caliber I hold in lower esteem. See above.

If/when that book or those articles get published, I would like to know where to read and/or purchase copies of them.

Yesterday I attended my county bar association's "Bench-Bar" continuing legal education. One of the judges who spoke said that there was so much crime in our seemingly quiet, rural/suburban county that she is amazed that she made it to age 50. That same judge spoke about the recently corrected lack of security in certain judicial offices, and it was a serious concern for her before proper security was provided. The final presentation, which seems to be sufficiently popular that it will likely continue in future years, was put on by the county narcotics task force. They talked about the busts they made, the trends they see in drug use, etc. It is amazing just how much illegal, dangerous activity is occurring just out of sight of most people here.

I wish I could get a lot more of the people I care about carrying at least a .380 or 9mm most of the time, and something all of the time, as well as visiting the local shooting range and training regularly. Right now even that .22 that we both agree is less than ideal would be a huge step up for most of them.

[TGS]

TGS can correct me if I'm misinterpreting his words here, but I believe he meant that preparing for the "average" criminal may leave you wanting if you find yourself in a situation where the criminal is not average, and that therefore it's better to carry a more capable gun/caliber whenever possible.

Yes sir, precisely that.


Not everyone's reality is the same. They have different risk profiles, social circles, and environments.


True, but what is the extent of what we're planning for? How far do we need to take it and does that not need to be balanced against other factors? Taken to ridiculous extreme, if we're planning for the absolute worst, why are we even talking handguns? Why not long guns and soft armor? Yeah, it's a silly statement, but for some folks' circumstances, packing a large handgun might be as un-achievable as a long gun. I think that's the general point of Claude's statements on the matter. Not that all anyone needs is a 22, but that you can be adequately prepared without kitting up with a service-sized weapon and multiple mags.


In response, Tamara and TCinVA said it perfectly in a prior mentioned thread:


The whole "the cops face real bad guys while civilians just face wimps that'll run off at the sound of the gunshot" line is spurious on its face anyway. See, usually the real bad guys face a civilian or two, which is what results in the cops getting called in the first place. To use the Mandatory Exemplar, Platt and Matix faced the shit out of a bunch of civilians before the cops ever laid eyes on them.


Bingo. The sort of dude the cops send a SWAT team to go get is the sort of dude that Mr. Ordinary Joe has to face on his own with no body armor and no backup. When you look at the criminal record of the bad guys police shoot, kill, or who manage to kill police officers you find out that they have an extensive record of violent crime against people who don't wear a badge. Now were they in a kill or be killed mindset in every instance where they victimized an average citizen? Probably not...but if they could engage that mindset the instant they see the blue lights behind them odds are they're capable of shifting into that mode of thinking if an intended victim is uncooperative.

...and that's to say nothing of the scores of examples of bad guys who have simply popped somebody who was completely cooperative, because it was never about the money/car/whatever...it was about them killing somebody because they thought it was fun.

Might a guy like that be scared off by somebody popping shots from a .22 at them? Sure. Is that the tool anyone who is charged with hunting down and stopping that kind of predator would take? Hell no.

Cops do not face an exceptional breed of criminal. They face the sort of criminal who is walking around your town right now breathing free air. The dude who came at local police with a knife and got himself shot a few weeks ago came to the attention of law enforcement after he came at some people walking down the street. He was as committed to stabbing them as he was to stabbing the police officer...only the police officer had a gun and could do something about it.

In short, a private citizen should have the same defensive capability that a LEO has.


There's a preponderance of evidence that disagrees with your opinion.

I don't think that I, nor anyone, is disagreeing that Joe Scumbag has a tendency to run when a victim pulls a firearm on the attacker. That goes beyond the presentation of a gun....common low-life thieves tend to not be prepared for victims refusing to cooperate (see SouthNarc's coursework).

What I'm taking issue with is the logic that a cop needs a sidearm for a different purpose compared to a private citizen. Similarly to private citizen encounters, most cops don't actually need to shoot anyone when we draw our weapons on people. Does that mean it's a good idea to carry a dummy instead simply because similarly to private citizens encounters the criminal is not willing to duel it out in most circumstances?

As for preponderance of evidence vs some guy on the internet, yeah, I'm some guy on the internet. You know who isn't? Dr. Martin Fackler, the Army's Letterman Institute, Dr. Gary Roberts, the IWBA, and FBI FTU. They've all worked extensively in terminal ballistics and have come to a consensus on what a minimum bullet performance for stopping an attacker should be, and they did so using much heavier, more robust, and more credible research than some guy combing through reports of people being attacked and how often an attacker fled.


The insistance that caliber and capacity along with the ability to reload rapidly are replacements for capability never cease to amaze me. It’s almost as ludicrous as the belief that we as private citizens will be fighting off multiple waves of attackers he’ll bent on stealing our iPhones and debit cards.

This is a strawman argument that you're throwing out here and you know it. Nobody has written or even implied, let alone insisted, that caliber, capacity, and ability to reload are replacement for a shooter's competence. That's fucking ridiculous, and you need to drop your bullshit somewhere else.

[Totem Polar]

This isn't a Glock 21 vs J-frame argument. This is j-frame vs j-frame. You're not giving anything up to stay with a cartridge that will break bone vs a rimfire, and what you gain with a rimfire isn't worth it.

Finally. There it is.

WTF is this even a debate, for the able-bodied?

(And this is coming from a guy who’s last gun purchase *was* a 43c...no shit, it’s in transit now...to use as a fun understudy for my .38 Js...)

[TGS]

Finally. There it is.

WTF is this even a debate, for the able-bodied?

(And this is coming from a guy who’s last gun purchase *was* a 43c...no shit, it’s in transit now...to use as a fun understudy for my .38 Js...)

Because it's 2018 and we have the internet to share good information like reliably backed terminal ballistics....wait...

This highway leads to the shadowy tip of reality: you're on a through route to the land of the different, the bizarre, the unexplainable...Go as far as you like on this road. Its limits are only those of mind itself. Ladies and Gentlemen, you're entering the wondrous dimension of imagination. Next stop....The Twilight Zone.

[mtnbkr]

This is j-frame vs j-frame. You're not giving anything up to stay with a cartridge that will break bone vs a rimfire, and what you gain with a rimfire isn't worth it.
Which is not at all what I have been saying. In fact, I specifically said I wouldn't carry a 22lr. Mainly for the reliability issues I've encountered, but regardless, I wouldn't be carrying or advocating carrying a 22lr. Additionally, in the same platform, I would be inclined to carry the largest caliber that platform supported absent physical issues in the shooter, again negating the 38 vs 22lr j-frame argument. What I'm saying is one should not avoid a smaller gun (and corresponding smaller caliber) if circumstances dictate (dress requirements, physical ability, etc). With guns like the LCP and Glock 42 available, there's no need to go below 380acp. I'm not sure why you're trying to pin the 22lr J-frame argument on me.


In short, a private citizen should have the same defensive capability that a LEO has.
I never said otherwise. What I have been saying is for situations where the person is unable to carry or shoot that larger gun or larger caliber, they can be equipped well enough to handle the threats the average person is most likely to encounter. This is supported by Claude's research. That is the entirety of what I've been saying in this thread, nothing more.

Chris

[BehindBlueI's]

Which is not at all what I have been saying...I'm not sure why you're trying to pin the 22lr J-frame argument on

Because of statements like this that indicate you think it's a wash and the ability to damage structural support of the body is irrelevant.



That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

[CCT125US]

One thing I'm trying to wrap my mind around is that a .22 J is somehow better for those with compromised physical abilities. I get the recoil part, but before the recoil, comes the 12lb DA pull. Not exactly easy from my observations, in regards to my father. Awhile back he always carried a Beretta 92SBC. He developed very bad carpal tunnel, and while he was able to work the slide, he could in no way handle the well worn in DA pull.

[Hizzie]

I’m not sure how this all deteriorated. I’m only looking at a 22 J because it’s 11.5oz and light enough to be my “underwear gun” and always on me.

[Hambo]

I’m not sure how this all deteriorated. I’m only looking at a 22 J because it’s 11.5oz and light enough to be my “underwear gun” and always on me.

Probably because the requirements of a defensive firearm do not change with your attire, or lack of it. It's not much more of a burden to carry a .38 in a DSG clip on, is it? If it is, couldn't you wear something more than your skivvies? What about people who sit around watching TV in the buff? ;)

[sharps54]

I think the desire for the 43C is the eternal search for the combo of light weight, reliability and shootability. While the 43C is a bit more expensive than a 442 it is still cheaper than a 340. If you can’t find a little auto you trust (Kahr P380, Keltec P32 or a Ruger LCP) the rimfire J frames are attractive even though spending a few hundred more on the 340 is probably a better option. Of course if it is a lounge around the house gun do you really want to spend almost $1000 on it?

I settled this by buying a Desantis Nemisis pocket holster with flap to let me carry my G26 in cargo shorts when I’m home (I rotate through a few pair and use a good belt) but a 442 in the DSG clip holster would do just as well.

[BehindBlueI's]

I’m not sure how this all deteriorated. I’m only looking at a 22 J because it’s 11.5oz and light enough to be my “underwear gun” and always on me.

I've not found my LCR to be burdensome in my pajamas around the house.

[scjbash]

I'm interested in getting a 22 j frame just for students with physical issues to shoot, but for an able bodied person a G42 is an equally easy to carry rule 1 gun. A G42 in a JMCK Universal with a DCC clip will work just fine in Hizzie's skivvies.

It could be made to work for the in the buff tv watchers, albeit not comfortably. :D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The idea that a 22 snub works as a good understudy is open to empirical study. Learning tends to be specific and generalization is not guaranteed. A long time ago, I read a study, which I can't find anymore, that said police trained on SW 22s revolvers and then transitioning to 38 SPL demonstrated no advantage as compared to those who started straight off with 38s. Sorry, I never kept the reference.

So I'd be interested in taking beginners and experts in a controlled regime of practice to see if the 22s helped.

Now let's play fantasy SCOTUS. They finally take a case about a state capacity ban - such as the SAFE Act. I Like Beer Boy - sways them to take one.

There are now many precedents at the lower court levels supporting such bans and stating that Heller supports such. The Court likes precedents. However, the lawyers for our side say that we need higher caps because college professors are socialists and folks are kneeling at football games. Then the ban lawyers say - let's get some expert opinion from well know internet sources such as the P-F. They read:


The insistance that caliber and capacity along with the ability to reload rapidly are replacements for capability never cease to amaze me. It’s almost as ludicrous as the belief that we as private citizens will be fighting off multiple waves of attackers he’ll bent on stealing our iPhones and debit cards.

Many similar statements are read. Well, then Alito, Roberts and the other 4 say that given the damage caused by higher cap weapons is so tremendous and it is clear that self-defense is not impeded by such bans and Tony Scalia said blah, blah - the bans stand.


To the issue at hand, just consider where you want to be on the risk continuum of intensity of attack vs. the probability you don't carry the day. Being someone who has seen 4 possible attackers as a law abiding citizen in surprising good places (going to see Yo Yo Ma, walking in our nice neighborhood, at a trail head in a nice park), the Js are only when constrained.

[Totem Polar]

The idea that a 22 snub works as a good understudy is open to empirical study. Learning tends to be specific and generalization is not guaranteed. A long time ago, I read a study, which I can't find anymore, that said police trained on SW 22s revolvers and then transitioning to 38 SPL demonstrated no advantage as compared to those who started straight off with 38s. Sorry, I never kept the reference...

Maybe on a 1:1 round count basis, sure. But I can afford to shoot 15k .22lr a year without even thinking about it; the same isn’t true for indoor .38 special fodder. The whole point of my .22s is that it’s almost free entertainment, compared to spending an hour drilling with .38, let alone one of my 1911s.

But we digress, substantially.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To digress, I agree with that. I shoot steel with 22 for grins. If I become hand limited, I will use my Buckmark as my home pistol. So far not as I can shoot 45 ACP with no problems.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To return to my point that gun world rhetoric can be used to support antigun laws:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/judge-dismisses-nra-lawsuit-over-seattles-new-gun-storage-law/

Got that from another thread. Note that the suit was dismissed in part because opposing a law on storage was contradicted by the organizations' promotion of safe storage.

So when you denounce the carry of higher capacity EDC weapons as unnecessary or gun boy fantasy, why shouldn't courts uphold that sort of law?

[BillSWPA]

For diminished hand strength, I would generally favor something with a light trigger. However, two different ladies with two different hand issues told me that revolvers work better for them. One of them uses both index fingers simultaneously on the trigger.



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[Doc_Glock]

I agree that the .25 ACP is lacking and was curious about Mr. Werner's opinion. As stated earlier, I am not qualified to dispute Mr. Werner but am entitled to an opinion which is different from his. It would take a great deal to motivate me to draw a handgun if accosted. But if that does occur, I hope like hell that it's not a .22. However, I would enjoy owning a rim fire J snub, and one day I might. I enjoy the .25 Beretta also but ain't fooling myself.

In a recent podcast Werner stayed he saw .25 fail to penetrate a wooden target backer and he has no use for the cartridge, clearly preferring .22 R. HeadHunter

[psalms144.1]

I’m not sure how this all deteriorated. I’m only looking at a 22 J because it’s 11.5oz and light enough to be my “underwear gun” and always on me.How much is the equivalent .38? I'd think a 340 would only be an ounce or three heavier, and a lot more effective

[sharps54]

How much is the equivalent .38? I'd think a 340 would only be an ounce or three heavier, and a lot more effective

That is what I was talking about in my post, the .22s cut the weight by 3 ounces (?) for a couple hundred dollars where you need to pay another $400 or so over a 442 to get a 340 to almost match the .22s weight. If this is mainly a lounge around the house gun how much are folks really willing to spend?

[Totem Polar]

If this is mainly a lounge around the house gun how much are folks really willing to spend?

This is P-F. Have you seen some of the 1911s in the gallery thread?

43c, 11 oz, mid-upper 500s.

M&P 340, 13oz, mid-upper 600s.

I paid more for my last Glock than an M&P 340 would cost, with judicious shopping.

[sharps54]

Good point. That said personally I would just make a heavier gun like the 442 work for around the house if I decided I was tired of pocket carrying my G26.

As for an "everywhere" handgun I personally find all j frames big for that role and in the past have defaulted to things like the Kahr P380 after vetting it. I really think it and the P32 have made the small .22 autos obsolete if you find a good one.

[RJ]

How much is the equivalent .38? I'd think a 340 would only be an ounce or three heavier, and a lot more effective

A Ruger LCR 5401 weighs 13.5 oz.

[JCS]

This is P-F. Have you seen some of the 1911s in the gallery thread?

43c, 11 oz, mid-upper 500s.

M&P 340, 13oz, mid-upper 600s.

I paid more for my last Glock than an M&P 340 would cost, with judicious shopping.

Herein lies part of the conundrum for someone like myself, who due to an injury, is counting ounces for a carry piece. My 442 weighs 14.7 ounces unloaded. I need to weigh it loaded to find out the total weight. But a few ounces can matter for some people. I’ve tried a kahr 380 once and my hands are so large it was very difficult to shoot. That’s why I’ve landed on the current question.

To get an ultralight j frame like the 340pd I’m paying around $850 compared to $550 for a 43c or 351pd.

I appreciate everyone’s input on this. There’s some very valid points on both sides.

[Totem Polar]

Herein lies part of the conundrum for someone like myself, who due to an injury, is counting ounces for a carry piece. My 442 weighs 14.7 ounces unloaded. I need to weigh it loaded to find out the total weight. But a few ounces can matter for some people. I’ve tried a kahr 380 once and my hands are so large it was very difficult to shoot. That’s why I’ve landed on the current question.

To get an ultralight j frame like the 340pd I’m paying around $850 compared to $550 for a 43c or 351pd...

I hasten to add that if health precludes a 442, then get the 351 or 43c and drive on. I will say this, the ultra light .22 J-frames feel like a cross between a 442 and a single potato chip. It’s almost comical.

Of course the LCP custom (not the LCP 2) is about the same weight.

As an aside, the folks I see as advocating for the .22 Js as an option: Claude, Caleb, John J, and Hizzie, if I’m reading this all correctly, all have a shit ton of rounds downtange. I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t want any of them shooting at me with anything. Point being, if for some reason I felt it physically prudent to carry a rimfire, I’d also take advantage of the economic reality, and run as many thousands of rounds in practice as I could. This is, in fact, my plan save for the fact that I’ll be AIWBing something with a bigger hole in the end to and from the range sessions.

But, hey, facing the sort of state initiatives that I am in the place where I was born and raised (that clearly consider a browning model 22 or remington model 24 takedown rifle chambered in .22 short an “assault rifle”) I’m good buying a beer for anyone here, regrdless if they’re carrying a girly-man snub or not. :D :cool:

[BillSWPA]

I don’t understand a lounging around the house gun. WhenI get dressed, my carry gun for that day goes on. It stays on until I go to sleep.

If injury was making me consider a .22 J frame, I would be quick to choose a Kel-Tec P-32. It hits about twice as hard if i recall correctly, has a lighter trigger pull, is small and lightweight, and recoil is negligible.



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[Duelist]

I don’t understand a lounging around the house gun. WhenI get dressed, my carry gun for that day goes on. It stays on until I go to sleep.

If injury was making me consider a .22 J frame, I would be quick to choose a Kel-Tec P-32. It hits about twice as hard if i recall correctly, has a lighter trigger pull, is small and lightweight, and recoil is negligible.



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"Like a brick through a plate glass window..."

[BehindBlueI's]

I don’t understand a lounging around the house gun. When I get dressed, my carry gun for that day goes on.

I do, too. On days I work, though, I often don't get dressed in the hours between waking up and putting on a uniform. I don't put on "real clothes" if I'm not going out of the house. Pajama bottoms, then exercise attire, then pajamas until uniform time.

[TGS]

I get around the whole lounging pants guns idea by simply having securely stored, easily accessed guns throughout the house.

If I want to lounge on the couch, then I want to do it without pokey metals bits that go bang sticking into me as I toss, turn, and generally act like a nuisance to my wife.

[Doc_Glock]

43c, 11 oz, mid-upper 500s.

M&P 340, 13oz, mid-upper 600s.

The weight difference will increase loaded.

[sharps54]

I get around the whole lounging pants guns idea by simply having securely stored, easily accessed guns throughout the house.

If I want to lounge on the couch, then I want to do it without pokey metals bits that go bang sticking into me as I toss, turn, and generally act like a nuisance to my wife.

I’m glad you added secured. I cringe when I read about people with handguns shoved under couch cushions and the like. The last thing I want to experience is coming home to the barrel of my own weapon.

For me personally I have dogs and am a big believer in having a weapon when I’m walking either of them so I need a way to carry for those 2 am potty runs. Slipping on cargo shorts has become my solution as I have a G26 and flashlight ready to go. I just transfer the Glock to my regular holster when I get dressed or to the gun safe if I’m not carrying it that day.

[Eli]

There's another consideration too. Weight. The 638 I carry often is 14.6 ounces, the 351C/43C I was looking at is 11.5. Add 5 rounds of 38 Special add ~2.5 ounces, so 17.1 ounces for the 638. On the 351C, add 7 rounds of .22WMR at ~1.5 ounces and you're at 13 ounces loaded.

Recently I had the opportunity to take a 351 for a test drive and had 3-4 people shoot it as well and the reaction was unanimous among all of us, "This thing is awesome, I'm buying one."

That may not sound like much, but having tried to jog one time with a 12oz (empty) .380 . . . yeah, it's enough. Is a 351C/43C going to replace my G19 as my main EDC? Nope. Will I feel undergunned with one in my particular use for it? Not at all. It would actually be more than I carry at this time in the roll that I'd be using it in.



100%.

My 351c serves one purpose...it's my gym gun. Even when I'm at home in "lounge around" clothes, I opt for a Glock 43 in a DSG Clip holster. For the specific purpose of an exercise gun though, the 351c is awesome.

[willie]

I'm comfortable with a J frame or Shield in an owb holster when at home. Frequently I carry one or the other when leaving the house. Even at home the holster is covered by a shirt. Since my dog died and has not been replaced, we no longer have her protection. In recent years failing health has dictated the habit of wearing a weapon at home. Home invasions are increasing in number, and though I was once a strong and robust man, I no longer am, Also I move slowly these days. I am not paranoid and neither do I expect to be invaded by ninjas. The weapon gives me an extra measure of safety in the sense that if accosted, I am less likely to be at an evil person's mercy.

[mmc45414]

I didn't read every word of this (have been out of town working) but have circled the drain on some of these points in the past. I think if you distill it down to the question in the tread title the answer would be simple, I would rather have five rounds of 38 than seven rounds of 22mag.

But the weight had my attention, the aluminum cylinders of the 22 guns compares more directly with the VERY expensive PD guns. In my case the scenario is walking in the park or stopping to eat or the grocery with my wife after the gym when I am not wearing a belt. This is just a comfort compromise, if I was serving warrants instead of going to the salad bar I would put on some pants. If I thought the situation was perilous I just wouldn't go. It is just ounces and a small percentage, but it either will, or will not be, supported by what I am wearing. I went ahead and splurged on a 360PD, it was a buttload of money but I CAN tell a difference from my 638. I can MAYBE tell a difference from my 340, but I am probably just stretching to justify having spent $800+ on a J-Frame. I was planning to sell the 340 when I got the 360PD, but I will probably just keep it because I like guns. I was considering one of the 22 guns but realized since they are more than the 38 guns it was not that big of a jump to a PD. If in my lifetime I have spent an extra $300 I didn't need to it really wont matter, maybe someday having it will matter and $300 in the bank will not.

IMO the 22 J-Frames might be a good fit for shooters that will shoot it more, even if it is only because they are stingy. Using Lucky Gunner as a reference the cheapest 38 ammo is over five times as much as the cheapest 22 ammo, if that means somebody might go to the range five times more often it is probably better than having a more powerful gun. Or if they shoot their centerfire J-Frames infrequently (never?) because it sucks or they have limitations. A competent and capable person would be better off with the 38, unless the person is competent and capable BECAUSE they got a 22.

[JCS]

Different question but still a j frame one, what’s people’s thought on gun with a hammer like the 351pd? Having never owned a gun with an external hammer is it going to snag on the draw either from aiwb or pocket carry?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just anecdotally and not with repeated trials with my thumb behind the hammer to smooth the draw, I found that my 317 would snag on a straight pull every once in awhile. The utility of a hammer on a 22 snubby is another can of worms.

I'm wondering if I should EDC my North American 22S now?

My 632 has a hammer and I have used it on some longer, small target match shots but I wasn't worried about the time as compared to missing. I don't see the use of a hammer in our hypothetical one mugger go away snubby scenario which is the one which always happens. Does a hammer scare the mugger more when you cock it on a 22 and say make my day?

Sorry to be silly. Yeah, it would snag a bit.

[BillSWPA]

Different question but still a j frame one, what’s people’s thought on gun with a hammer like the 351pd? Having never owned a gun with an external hammer is it going to snag on the draw either from aiwb or pocket carry?

My first concealed carry gun was a Colt Detective Special, which has a long, sharp-pointed hammer spur. Snagging was definitely a problem, most often with inexpensive nylon holsters with thumb break retention straps, as well as occasionally with clothing. That gun taught me that a hammer spur has little or no place on a revolver intended for concealed carry.

If I recall correctly, some of those J frames may have abbreviated hammer spurs which are less likely to cause a problem.



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[JCS]

Thanks. I think I’m gonna keep the 442 and get either a 43c or 351c to go with it. I see merit in having both.

[Hizzie]

Thanks. I think I’m gonna keep the 442 and get either a 43c or 351c to go with it. I see merit in having both.

I had no plans of ditching my 642 either. It’s just in the process of being updated. I cannot afford to shoot 38 the way I could 22. Even if I could I couldn’t imagine my hand tolerating 500 rounds of 38 the way I could a brick of 22.

[sharps54]

So here’s a question, how detrimental would it be to have a .22 practice revolver that doesn’t match your carry revolver? For example if you carry a 442 but because of price buy a .22 LCR or (gasp) a .22 Charter Arms will it really matter as long as you still practice some live fire with the .38 and do all your home dry fire / reload drills with the 442?

[mmc45414]

So here’s a question, how detrimental would it be to have a .22 practice revolver that doesn’t match your carry revolver? For example if you carry a 442 but because of price buy a .22 LCR... still practice some live fire with the .38
I would like to have the 317:
31566
Though not a cheap date, I think it would be good practice and a neat one to have anyway. The LCR wouldn't be EXACTLY the same (but a better deal), but shooting a bunch through one would be better than not.

[Sal Picante]

Good point. That said personally I would just make a heavier gun like the 442 work for around the house if I decided I was tired of pocket carrying my G26.

As for an "everywhere" handgun I personally find all j frames big for that role and in the past have defaulted to things like the Kahr P380 after vetting it. I really think it and the P32 have made the small .22 autos obsolete if you find a good one.

I like the PM9 (though big for "pocket carry") enough to try the P380 and CW380. The trouble I've had with the K380 is my hands/grip jamming it up... I've never run a P32, though I might dig around for it - but the P3AT I've "shot" was uncomfortable and, well, not inspiring. Since the Kahr 380's and Keltecs didn't pan out reliably, I've tried other options, like a Ruger LCR in 38 and a Beretta 21A. Both work. Both are light. The 21A is def. smaller than the LCR, by a lot, which makes it fit rule #1: always have a gun.

[Sal Picante]

Here's the rub, regardless of what you carry you've got to be proficient with it. That means you have to get out and run the crap out of it and see what it's limitations are as well as your own. Only then can you really speak with any authority on the issue.

...

Should you choose a mousegun caliber, run it hard. Shoot the drills and learn what you can and can't do. If you're worried about the trigger you can put in a standard weight mainspring like that of a 642, or shoot it a lot and learn to handle the factory trigger. Buy Claude's e-book on drills.


This.

I really tried to make this point on the P&S podcast: Regardless of what you carry, practice with it.

I really look hard at being able to do some tailored made drills like "The Wizard", 5X5X5 reliably with these guns.

On other drills/standards, people should be looking to perform just 10-25% over your regular gear. The smaller gun, the higher the %...)

I'll admit, since I've moved down to FL I haven't shot nearly as much as I've wanted to, but I'll be rectifying that - I made it a point to shoot a fair bit with my jFrame/LCR and bobcat a fair bit.

[sharps54]

I like the PM9 (though big for "pocket carry") enough to try the P380 and CW380. The trouble I've had with the K380 is my hands/grip jamming it up... I've never run a P32, though I might dig around for it - but the P3AT I've "shot" was uncomfortable and, well, not inspiring. Since the Kahr 380's and Keltecs didn't pan out reliably, I've tried other options, like a Ruger LCR in 38 and a Beretta 21A. Both work. Both are light. The 21A is def. smaller than the LCR, by a lot, which makes it fit rule #1: always have a gun.

I haven’t tried a Keltec .380 but the 1st gen LCP was unpleasant enough that I have no desire to. The P32 is fun to shoot but like the Kahr .380s seems to be a crap shoot, you either get a good one or you don’t.

[willie]

About hammers on revolvers. As said above, they can snag. When revolvers were standard issue in years past, some departments would have the single action feature removed. The reason was to prevent an officer from cocking the weapon after having drawn and pointed it at a suspect. Removing this feature was wise. Over the years I had hammer spurs ground off 2 1/2 inch M19s and J frames with hammers. Once done, the tendency to snag has been eliminated. However, doing so usually lowers the revolver's value. Having owned many revolvers and a sack full of snub nose variations, I'm convinced that hammerless J frames are the best of the breed. I've owned several Bodyguards which have a shrouded hammer and like them too although I never use the single action feature unless I'm experimenting in some sort of stunt shooting which is fun but has little value in training.

[Clusterfrack]

Les Pepperoni, have you tried a LCP I (gen 2)? I shoot mine better than any mousegun I’ve tried. It’s been trouble free as well. For $170, it’s worth a try.

[Sal Picante]

Les Pepperoni, have you tried a LCP I (gen 2)? I shoot mine better than any mousegun I’ve tried. It’s been trouble free as well. For $170, it’s worth a try.

I haven't... I may check it out.

[JCS]

So here’s a question, how detrimental would it be to have a .22 practice revolver that doesn’t match your carry revolver? For example if you carry a 442 but because of price buy a .22 LCR or (gasp) a .22 Charter Arms will it really matter as long as you still practice some live fire with the .38 and do all your home dry fire / reload drills with the 442?

I’d imagine quite a bit since it would require two sets of gear and the manual of arms is different on a smith and ruger.

[Clusterfrack]

I haven't... I may check it out.

I really wanted to hate the fugly cheapass LCP. But it shoots well in my hands and is so thin and small...


Gun: Ruger LCP 1 (Gen2)
Holster: Fist #3 at 3:30
Concealment: polo shirt

Bill
3.39-.25: 3.14 Dark
3.41+.25-.25: 3.41 Dark
F2S
3.00+.25-.25: 3.00 Dark
2.93-.25: 2.68 Dark
2H
3.30-.25: 3.05
2.89 +2-.25: 4.73
4B2H
3.60 +.5-.25: 3.85 Dark
3.61-.25: 3.36 Light

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170814/4311bbac63dd04795d7b34fe561ddbfd.jpg

[JCS]

I had no plans of ditching my 642 either. It’s just in the process of being updated. I cannot afford to shoot 38 the way I could 22. Even if I could I couldn’t imagine my hand tolerating 500 rounds of 38 the way I could a brick of 22.

What are you having done to the 642? Do you have a 43c?

[sharps54]

I’d imagine quite a bit since it would require two sets of gear and the manual of arms is different on a smith and ruger.

I’m envisioning doing all the dry fire, reloads with dummies and holster work at the range with the 442 and using the .22 for additional live fire trigger time doing dedicated accuracy drills. I wouldn’t be buying any gear for the .22 although Inwould probably paint the sights the same (black rear white and orange front as per Mr. Werner).

[Hizzie]

What are you having done to the 642? Do you have a 43c?

I am getting the dead tritium removed from the front sight and converting to gold bead, installing a Power Custom thumb piece and adding an APEX kit since my original specs were for factory weight springs.

I haven’t been able to swing the 43c yet. My paramedic renewal is looming and the CEU’s required take priority.

[spinmove_]

I really wanted to hate the fugly cheapass LCP. But it shoots well in my hands and is so thin and small...

This is going to sound like a silly question, but given that it’s a super cheap and mass produced tiny semi-auto that goes in a front pocket, how does it handle pocket lint?


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[Clusterfrack]

This is going to sound like a silly question, but given that it’s a super cheap and mass produced tiny semi-auto that goes in a front pocket, how does it handle pocket lint?


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Can’t answer that. I had a bad situation made worse by pocket lint in an OC spray. Short story is lint made the spray not work when I was engaged with two German Shepards trying to kill my dog, and their drunk owner screaming at me.

Now I don’t let lint accumulate in any defense device.

[spinmove_]

Can’t answer that. I had a bad situation made worse by pocket lint in an OC spray. Short story is lint made the spray not work when I was engaged with two German Shepards trying to kill my dog, and their drunk owner screaming at me.

Now I don’t let lint accumulate in any defense device.

How often do you find yourself cleaning the LCP?


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[Clusterfrack]

How often do you find yourself cleaning the LCP?


Dunno. Maybe once a month or two I blow the lint out of the hammer area?

I do not carry it that often.

[spinmove_]

Dunno. Maybe once a month or two I blow the lint out of the hammer area?

I do not carry it that often.

Fair enough. The reason why I ask is that, at least for MY use case, I would actually be carrying it daily in a front pocket. As in, legitimately 5-7 days a week.

From others that I’ve talked to, that kind of frequent pocket carry is why a J-frame works so well. Not that it doesn’t need to be cleaned, but it seems to stand up to neglect a skosh better in that regard.

Still, at the LCP’s price, it’s tempting to scoop one up and start putting it through it’s paces.


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[Clusterfrack]

If lint is a concern, I recommend doing an experiment. Cram lint between the hammer and FP and see if it fires. I may try this when I get some extra time.

I think the LCP is going to be pretty robust. The hammer strikes hard.

[BillSWPA]

This is going to sound like a silly question, but given that it’s a super cheap and mass produced tiny semi-auto that goes in a front pocket, how does it handle pocket lint?


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Definitely not a silly question. The hammer area of a P-32 or P3AT is a lint magnet. Hi f I am carrying one daily, I will remove the lint about every couple of weeks. If I am going somewhere that will require use of something tiny as a primary, I try to remove lint the night before going. I do not know how much lint would be required to cause a problem, and do not wish to find out at the wrong time.



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[pooty]

As an aside, the folks I see as advocating for the .22 Js as an option: Claude, Caleb, John J, and Hizzie, if I’m reading this all correctly, all have a shit ton of rounds downtange. I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t want any of them shooting at me with anything. Point being, if for some reason I felt it physically prudent to carry a rimfire, I’d also take advantage of the economic reality, and run as many thousands of rounds in practice as I could. This is, in fact, my plan save for the fact that I’ll be AIWBing something with a bigger hole in the end to and from the range sessions.


SGM John McPhee said somewhere on social media, that he'd shoot a .22 if ignition was reliable, since what really matters at handgun range, is hitting the head or spine.

[TheNewbie]

This is going to sound like a silly question, but given that it’s a super cheap and mass produced tiny semi-auto that goes in a front pocket, how does it handle pocket lint?


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In my sample of two, the Gen 1 LCP holds up quite well to abuse and being dirty. Plus I shoot it really well for what it is.

[Tom Givens]

I’ve already made my decision. I suppose it’s hard to believe that folks could look at their data and still come up with a different conclusion, but I didn’t look at their data alone.

Here’s an interesting conundrum for you, Tom Givens is not a big proponent of a five shot J frame as a primary piece and yet every shooting problem in his Lessons From The Street could have been solved with....wait for it...a five shot J frame. So when you start quoting data from a source it’s prudent to consider all the data from said source, not only that which fits a set of preconceived notions.

Uh.... No.

In two of the incidents discussed in that video, a j-frame probably would not have sufficed.

"Jason" put five rounds into one bad guy, and fired three rounds at BG#2, getting 2 hits. That's 8 rounds. Hard to do with a 5 shot gun.

"Fred" engaged a man at 22 yards. The BG was firing at Fred and some children. There was an occupied home behind the bad guy, so Fred really needed to not miss. He fired one round from a Glock 23 to the center of the BG's chest and stopped the problem. I'd hate to have to make a 22 yard shot, under fire, with a j-frame.

[314159]

I haven't read this entire thread but, if no one's mentioned it yet, another choice is 6 rounds of .32 H&R mag in a LCR or older S&W J frame. Light recoil, adequate penetration, and centerfire reliability all in one. If you want to give up light recoil, really high penetration in .327 Federal on the LCR platform. Neither is a low cost practice round of course.

[Hambo]

I haven't read this entire thread but, if no one's mentioned it yet, another choice is 6 rounds of .32 H&R mag in a LCR or older S&W J frame. Light recoil, adequate penetration, and centerfire reliability all in one. If you want to give up light recoil, really high penetration in .327 Federal on the LCR platform. Neither is a low cost practice round of course.

I'm currently working on loads for a .327 revolver for field carry. If you don't reload you can use a variety of other .32s for practice. The down side is that factory .327 ammo is limited, pricey, and often unavailable.

[mmc45414]

I know it would be a huge step for many, but an alternative to buying a rimfire gun to get cheap practice ammo that doesn't recoil could be to reload ammo. It has fallen out of fashion since 9mm ammo can be had for $0.18, but back before the earth cooled many of us started reloading ammo because it was a ton cheaper.

And 38 is still a sweet spot, buying it is not cheap and reloading it is because it loves cast bullets. Just doing some quick approximating you could load 125g@800fps for about a dime (not counting cases). Low recoil and easy to retain your cases, though many/most indoor ranges prohibit it.

If anybody wants to start a companion thread in the Reloading sub forum we could circle the drain over specifics there.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I haven't read this entire thread but, if no one's mentioned it yet, another choice is 6 rounds of .32 H&R mag in a LCR or older S&W J frame. Light recoil, adequate penetration, and centerfire reliability all in one. If you want to give up light recoil, really high penetration in .327 Federal on the LCR platform. Neither is a low cost practice round of course.

I mentioned it awhile ago. I have a 432 for carry and a 632 3 inch, SS comp'ed hammered one. I put a fiber optic on it. I bought a case of Fiocchi 32 SW Long FMJ for practice and still haven't gone through. BTW, the full power 327s are NOT without kick. They surprised me. The Fiocchis wouldn't reliably knock down a steel popper at an IDPA match. Just went ping a few times. If I carried a OWB revolver it would be the 632 as I found my Model 19 was just too big much of the time. If I wanted a big OWB gun it would be a Glock 17 or 1911. I've small hands and liked the the SW 19 but it was not optimal for my EDC.

If I develop serious hand problems necessitating only a 22, then I might switch. Not yet. Will that happen before the sands of time check me out - empirical question.

[Sal Picante]

I really wanted to hate the fugly cheapass LCP. But it shoots well in my hands and is so thin and small...

Are those figure within 10-25% of you shooting a full-size? I'd say you should be no worse than 10% using that LCP if you shoot it well.

Clarifying a bit too: for the draw, I'll start hands out of the pocket if pocket carrying (with the exception of the wizard drill), else holstered in whatever method.

[Clusterfrack]

Are those figure within 10-25% of you shooting a full-size? I'd say you should be no worse than 10% using that LCP if you shoot it well.

Clarifying a bit too: for the draw, I'll start hands out of the pocket if pocket carrying (with the exception of the wizard drill), else holstered in whatever method.

No, the LCP runs are not even close. I can do Turbo on all the Gabe White drills with a P-07.

But I did draw from a holster with the LCP, so that cost me 0.25 or so.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just as an addendum - my EDC is a Glock 26 or 19 with an extra mag. The J's are for circumstances that necessitate that kind of carry and I do practice with it matches. I would like to thank Tom for picking up a flaw in my semi grip that did quite a bit for my accuracy. When I go off accurate fire it's because I retrograded to the flaw he detected. Thus, I concentrate.

Also, as I said - Claude's class was worth oodles of time at the square range with a snubby.

I had an early LCP that I trade for a G42 (first one out and a POS - had to go back to the shop).

[Sal Picante]

No, the LCP runs are not even close. I can do Turbo on all the Gabe White drills with a P-07.

But I did draw from a holster with the LCP, so that cost me 0.25 or so.

I'll have to post some shooting when I get back to it... Access to a pocket gun is always the biggest issue, IMHO.

[RevolverRob]

I see a lot of eye shaped targets when Claude posts pics of him using his 22 snubs. That might be a clue.

Right? This one seemed to get lost in here, so let's repeat it.

If you're going to shoot/carry a 22 snub (be it Mag or LR) - you need to be working on occular-window shots almost exclusively. You might not get an occular window shot against an opponent, but your accuracy must be top notch with these guns. The upside, you can shoot a thousand rounds a day of .22LR for what a ~200 rounds of .38 WC cost.


I’m not sure how this all deteriorated. I’m only looking at a 22 J because it’s 11.5oz and light enough to be my “underwear gun” and always on me.

Great dog walking gun, too, when the dog wakes you at 3am with the squirts and you're wearing pajama pants and a hoodie. A 43C with a hip-grip or clip-draw is awesome.


Probably because the requirements of a defensive firearm do not change with your attire, or lack of it. It's not much more of a burden to carry a .38 in a DSG clip on, is it? If it is, couldn't you wear something more than your skivvies? What about people who sit around watching TV in the buff? ;)

Watching TV in the buff is what neck or shoulder holsters are for.


This is P-F. Have you seen some of the 1911s in the gallery thread?

Right? I've spent more on boots than I've spent on some guns. Whatever, it's just money.

___

For me the 43C holds value in three realms.

First, lots of live-fire training for minimal cash outlay.
Second, lightweight "always" gun, that can be hidden in the deepest and darkest crevices.
Third, the gun I can go to, when my carpal tunnel flares up so bad that gripping a .38 J hard enough to keep it in my hand hurts (let alone shooting it) and a P32 feels like I'm getting smashed with a sledgehammer when I fire it. In that scenario a ~11-12 ounce .22 fed with match grade ammo is what I'll have.

FYI - I've mentioned this before, recently. If you're carrying a rimfire gun in any form for defense, ever, feed it match-grade ammo. Much more consistent in ignition than just about anything. Eley Match and Aguila Match are two of my favorites from Bullseye days.

[45dotACP]

A 43C with a hip-grip or clip-draw is awesome.


For me the 43C holds value in three realms.

First, lots of live-fire training for minimal cash outlay.
Second, lightweight "always" gun, that can be hidden in the deepest and darkest crevices.
Third, the gun I can go to, when my carpal tunnel flares up so bad that gripping a .38 J hard enough to keep it in my hand hurts (let alone shooting it) and a P32 feels like I'm getting smashed with a sledgehammer when I fire it. In that scenario a ~11-12 ounce .22 fed with match grade ammo is what I'll have.


Ah shit.

There's a LGS that has a deal on a 43C and you sir, are not helping.

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[Totem Polar]

The upside, you can shoot a thousand rounds a day of .22LR for what a ~200 rounds of .38 WC cost.

Great dog walking gun, too, when the dog wakes you at 3am with the squirts and you're wearing pajama pants and a hoodie. A 43C with a hip-grip or clip-draw is awesome...

For what it’s worth, my own 43c arrived at the LGS today.

And, I’ve got thousands of rounds of .22lr, spare baramis AND a clip grip around here somewhere...

:cool:

[olstyn]

I know it would be a huge step for many, but an alternative to buying a rimfire gun to get cheap practice ammo that doesn't recoil could be to reload ammo. It has fallen out of fashion since 9mm ammo can be had for $0.18, but back before the earth cooled many of us started reloading ammo because it was a ton cheaper.

Even at $0.18/round, I'm still saving significant money by reloading 9mm - Blue Bullets coated 125 gr truncated cone bullets bought by the case, with a random forum discount code for 5% off work out to something like 6.2 or 6.3 cents per, primers are 3 +/- .5 cents per, and powder is ~ 1 cent per. That's 10-11 cents per, or a savings of roughly 40%. For a while there, .22 didn't even look particularly cheap compared to reloading 9mm.

[mmc45414]

Even at $0.18/round, I'm still saving significant money by reloading 9mm... For a while there, .22 didn't even look particularly cheap compared to reloading 9mm.I agree, the 22 shortage is part of what started me down the 9mm path I am on now.

And 38 is not cheap like 9mm. And you can make it like a mouse fart.

[Duelist]

I agree, the 22 shortage is part of what started me down the 9mm path I am on now.

And 38 is not cheap like 9mm. And you can make it like a mouse fart.

.38 mouse fart: 105 gr hollow base flat nose moly coated lead, 2.7 gr Bullseye.
.38 bunny fart: 125 gr flat nose moly coated lead, 2.7-3.5 gr bullseye.

Shoot those mouse farts through an N frame .357, and you will giggle.

[TGS]

Haven't seen this video linked with a feature by Claude and the topic in this thread, so I wanted to share it. This is a great video covering the concept by LGChris:

Lucky Gunner: Maybe I Wrong About Pocket Pistols (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM)


Some thoughts:

1) I still think the philosophy on use/purpose of a pistol for private citizens vs LEOs is horribly misguided. In particular, the assumption that since you're a private citizen that somehow you face a different breed of criminal that will run, and thus you don't need anything more than to scare them.

If that's the case, why so much focus on shooting someone in the eye socket? The entire purpose is so that you can reliably reach the CNS, in particular the medulla oblangata and do what? Incapacitate them. So is your goal incapacitation of a violent attacker threatening your life or not? Because you're saying it isn't, but you're practicing for it.....

2) At 5 minutes in, the "Indian not the arrow" speech is given. Why? Why is this concept presented with the assumption being that proficiency and carrying appropriate gear are somehow mutually exclusive topics? They're not. This website is proof of that. There's tons of shooters who are proof of that.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

3) In the same topic presented at the 5 minute mark, Claude uses a relatively true statement in that all pistols are "pop guns"; i.e., they're relatively unimpressive in terms of actual effects, they're not death rays, or however else you might want to describe it. Yeah, that's true, but it's also a simplification taken to the extreme. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion presented by physicians and scientists who've extensively studied terminal ballistics with independently validated, peer reviewed, and OIS-correlated results since the '86 Miami-Dade shootout.

4) Sentinel Events and Pareto Principle. Interesting, and a general theme that I agree with. But, again......if you're training to shoot people in the fucking eyeball you're way past Pareto Principle and into Sentinel Events, no? So why purposely carry a gun that makes those shots harder, as well as automatically making your target much smaller than would be reasonable if using a service-grade caliber, or even a 380 and 38 Special? I'm not talking about people requiring the proverbial "Old Man Gun", I'm speaking in reference to the underlying idea that a .22 is all the gun that is needed, and the continual contradiction that Claude is obviously spending an inordinate amount of time training to do something that is not only very unrealistic to reliably pull off in a real fight, but also something that is in excess of what he has described as being necessary for a private citizen.

Incapacitation.

[psalms144.1]

SNIPI concur with all of these thoughts, and will only add one more:

"Break contact." At one point Mr. Werner makes a comment to the effect that if we "pop" someone with a .32 and they run away, it's a win for the private citizen. Couldn't agree more. What happens when you "pop" someone with your .22/.25/.32/whatever and they DON'T run away because your ammunition/weapon combination doesn't incapacitate them, and they're not impressed with your action? Then you're suddenly in a Sentinel Event without the tools to fix it. I'm NOT suggesting that if you don't carry a G19 or equivalent you're a walking death sentence. I'm AM suggesting that a low caliber, low capacity, crappy sighted, heavy triggered weapon is NOT something I'd suggest as a "defensive" pistol for anyone I cared for. As TGS pointed out, Claude practices hitting eye-socket sized targets, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO HIT TO INCAPACITATE A DEDICATED ATTACKER. How many people who are looking for the CONVENIENCE of a tiny, low recoil pistol are going to TRAIN to be able to hit the eye socket on a moving target in low light?

Anyway, "to each his own, said the lady as she kissed the cow," as my dearly departed mother used to say. This thread is like any political thread in the General Discussion forum, I truly believe we've reached the point of talking past each other.

[JCS]

Does anyone know the weight of a loaded 43c?

I weighed my 442 loaded and it weighs 16.068 ounces. Surprisingly a g43 weighed 22 ounces.

[BillSWPA]

The unloaded weight of a Kel-Tec P-32 or P3AT is around 7 or 8 oz. Loaded weight is about the same as the unloaded weight of the lightest J frames.



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[BillSWPA]

I would never recommend a .22 if something better is an option.

I would recommend a .22 for:

Someone with hand/wrist issues that cannot handle anything bigger.

Someone carrying in a NPE who cannot hide anything bigger (although the availability of .32 and .380 pistols in tiny sizes really negates this unless combined with recoil sensitivity).

Someone who is not as dedicated as us and would not carry anything if their options are either 1) nothing, or 2) something we would regard as ideal. Keep in mind that 99.9% of the ladies in our lives are not going to alter their mode of dress to accommodate a gun. Whatever we suggest for them has to work within that constraint.

One component of the accuracy issue is helped by the availability of Crimson Trace lasers for J frames as well as Beretta 21 pistols. Kel-Tec, and Ruger pistols.



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[mmc45414]

Surprisingly a g43 weighed 22 ounces.
I was surprised also. I thought the CM-9 was going to be the solution to my desire for something small and light, but it is really not all that light, same with the Shield. Weight is what brought me back around to the J-Frame(s).

Something else I think is often not mentioned when considering the J-Frame to be unpleasant and difficult to shoot is the size of the grips. Unless it is actually in a pocket the Altamont grips on my 360 make it a lot easier and comfortable to shoot, add little weight, and I think makes for a more likely fast presentation.
31673

[mtnbkr]

1) I still think the philosophy on use/purpose of a pistol for private citizens vs LEOs is horribly misguided. In particular, the assumption that since you're a private citizen that somehow you face a different breed of criminal that will run, and thus you don't need anything more than to scare them.

My take on that philosophy is not that the private citizen has a magic shield protecting them from encounters from particularly violent criminals, but that they're not exposed to them at the same rate or in the same ways as active duty LEO. For example, if a private citizen spots a suspicious car loaded with gang bangers, he can choose avoidance and go the other way. If a cop sees the same car, he may be compelled to intervene, exposing himself to those criminals and possibly instigating a fight (grossly oversimplifying here).

To my mind, it's like how two people *can* develop cancer, but the person being regularly exposed to ionizing radiation is *more likely* to develop the disease. Neither are immune, but one has greater odds of a negative outcome due to the environmental factor.


"Break contact." At one point Mr. Werner makes a comment to the effect that if we "pop" someone with a .32 and they run away, it's a win for the private citizen. Couldn't agree more. What happens when you "pop" someone with your .22/.25/.32/whatever and they DON'T run away because your ammunition/weapon combination doesn't incapacitate them, and they're not impressed with your action?

How often does that happen? I'm genuinely curious. The stats I've seen never mention that, only that the armed citizen prevailed. I never hear of someone who was armed, fought back, made some solid hits, and was still killed by their attacker because they didn't have "enough gun" (I've heard of that happening to a police officer, but haven't read the same for the armed citizen scenario). Tom Givens went over some shooting stats involving his students in a podcast recently (I think it was recorded in 2017). He didn't mention hardware choices, but it struck me the only non-wins were those where the student wasn't armed at all.

I'm not advocating the use of smaller guns or calibers when someone can carry and shoot the larger one, but I worry that we discourage those with challenges (health, dress code, NPE issues, etc) when we tell them they're essentially going to die if they can't carry a G19. It doesn't appear to be true statistically. I think the Pareto rule, mentioned above and in the video, is a good starting point for most folks. Have a gun. Know how to use it. Carry it whenever possible. Once you have that integrated as part of your life, you can reevaluate your circumstances and make adjustments.

Chris

[Clusterfrack]

Smaller guns and sub-calibers require much greater skill and training to use effectively.

Mossad used Beretta 70s in .22LR for many years. That doesn’t support their use by a relatively untrained civilian.

Train.

Carry a gun you can shoot.

Use commonly accepted ammunition. See DocGKRs posts on this. .22 isn’t on them.

[mmc45414]

Does anyone know the weight of a loaded 43c?
Probably about 14oz, compared to the 360:
31675

[sharps54]

SNIP

How often does that happen? I'm genuinely curious. The stats I've seen never mention that, only that the armed citizen prevailed. I never hear of someone who was armed, fought back, made some solid hits, and was still killed by their attacker because they didn't have "enough gun" (I've heard of that happening to a police officer, but haven't read the same for the armed citizen scenario). Tom Givens went over some shooting stats involving his students in a podcast recently (I think it was recorded in 2017). He didn't mention hardware choices, but it struck me the only non-wins were those where the student wasn't armed at all.

SNIP

Chris

During the P&S mouse gun episode Claude gave an example of a citizen being killed after landing a chest shot during a gunfight where the citizen had a NAA mini revolver (I think). I’d bet dollars to donuts that @BehindBlueI’s has come across cases where someone lands hits with a mouse gun and still loses. To limit the results to non-LEO good guys seems silly, we need to also look at times mouse guns have failed bad guys when used against non-LEOs (I’ll give you that to take body armor out of the equation).

[RevolverRob]

Tongue-In-Cheek: If accuracy doesn't matter, just load the revolver with rat shot...8-round pocket shotgun!

Reality:

Let's get a few things straight.

1) Everyone carrying a gun should be carrying the largest gun in terms of caliber, capacity, and size that they reasonably can, every single time they put on a gun.

2) Fallacious thinking that even I am guilty of includes, "It's a 3am dog walk." or "I'm running to 7-11." "Or the big gun doesn't match my purse." - These are bullshit excuses, but do reflect your perception of the world around you. A 3am dog walk seems safe enough, except I live in a city where most of the (non-random) violent crime occurs between 9pm and 4am. (me listening to my own advice ->:rolleyes:)

3) Anyone advocating the regular carrying of a 'sub-caliber' gun for defensive purposes should look hard at why they suggest that. We don't arm cops with .22s and even grandma's prefer .38s and larger (ask my mother who stole my 3" Colt Detective Special for herself. :rolleyes:).

4) The only legitimate reason to go .22, for defensive purposes, is for the disabled. As I stated before, when my carpal tunnel flares up bad for days/weeks? .22 is about all I can fire with enough regularity. It's what I go with.

5) My opinion 5 rounds of .38 beats 7 rounds of .22Mag, simply because I've never had high quality .38 ammo not go bang, can't say the same for .22 Mag.

____

I do think that we can have a really interesting discussion about whether someone might choose a .22 for defensive purposes, if they are shooting thousands of rounds a year regularly almost to the exclusion of centerfire guns. In those scenarios, I'm not sure we can ignore the repetitions and practice in lieu of "bigger caliber". In theory those reps should translate, somewhat, to guns of a similar size/weight, but that's a nice theory, is it reality?

Ex: When I have a carpal tunnel flare-up that lasts several weeks/month(s) and switch to rimfire shooting exclusively, I will continue to carry the .22 even for another week or so after the pain goes away, because I've been running that gun exclusively for awhile and haven't put in many (if any) centerfire reps. Until I get my centerfire reps back up (and confirm I can go back to running the centerfire guns regularly), I'll keep the .22 closest to me, because why mess with familiarity? Maybe that's being over-cautious or its a fallacious argument. I feel there is something to it and I've definitely noted that it takes me a day or two of dryfire and shooting to get back to the other guns. Partly, the pain causes recoil anticipation something fierce and partly the transition back to a heavier recoiling gun, requires some effort.

[Doc_Glock]

Does anyone know the weight of a loaded 43c?

I weighed my 442 loaded and it weighs 16.068 ounces. Surprisingly a g43 weighed 22 ounces.


Add 0.9 oz for eight rounds of .22 for the 43c

PM9 loaded is 19.5oz

G42 loaded is 16.3 oz

I can’t find my notes for a loaded LCP, but it is pretty light. Around 12-13oz.

[mtnbkr]

During the P&S mouse gun episode Claude gave an example of a citizen being killed after landing a chest shot during a gunfight where the citizen had a NAA mini revolver (I think). I’d bet dollars to donuts that @BehindBlueI’s has come across cases where someone lands hits with a mouse gun and still loses. To limit the results to non-LEO good guys seems silly, we need to also look at times mouse guns have failed bad guys when used against non-LEOs (I’ll give you that to take body armor out of the equation).

Ugh...NAA Mini. While I like the gun as a piece of jewelry or as a novelty, any actual shooting with it, for fun or serious business, is pointless. I had one years ago and really tried to like it. I thought it would make a good snakeshot gun for fishing, but it was so cumbersome to shoot, loud, and inaccurate, I sold it and moved on. Cute toys, nothing more.

I never thought about including "bad guys" in the failure discussion. I suppose it works as well, but as you say, the cops having body armor kind of ruins the calcs. That, and the apparent propensity to use chicken grease as lube or to load the guns with incorrect ammo, would skew results. :p

Chris

[sharps54]

There are plenty of bad guy (on bad guy or on civilian) shootings to get data from though! You do bring up a valid point about the state of their gear but I’m sure there are plenty of home defense pistols in pretty ratty shape as well.

[OlongJohnson]

chicken grease as lube

If only you could still get good whale oil...

[Hambo]

My take on that philosophy is not that the private citizen has a magic shield protecting them from encounters from particularly violent criminals, but that they're not exposed to them at the same rate or in the same ways as active duty LEO.

Criminals aren't born with a armed robbery or attempted murder record. They all start that violent record on somebody, which could well be you. You don't have to meet the most vicious bastard out there to get hurt or killed.

[LGChris]

Haven't seen this video linked with a feature by Claude and the topic in this thread, so I wanted to share it. This is a great video covering the concept by LGChris:

Lucky Gunner: Maybe I Wrong About Pocket Pistols (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM)



Thanks for mentioning the video. Claude can chime in if he would like to clarify any of his statements. I can't say this is a conversation I care to join myself, though. Reading through this thread just now was an exercise in frustration, and attempting to offer any additional perspective seems futile. Ya'll are some bullheaded people.

[TGS]

I'm not advocating the use of smaller guns or calibers when someone can carry and shoot the larger one, but I worry that we discourage those with challenges (health, dress code, NPE issues, etc) when we tell them they're essentially going to die if they can't carry a G19. It doesn't appear to be true statistically. I think the Pareto rule, mentioned above and in the video, is a good starting point for most folks. Have a gun. Know how to use it. Carry it whenever possible. Once you have that integrated as part of your life, you can reevaluate your circumstances and make adjustments.

Chris

Chris,

Totally understand, but where are you seeing people discourage those of lesser abilities from carrying something at all, anything? It certainly isn't this forum. I haven't seen a pattern of people saying that you're going to die if you don't carry a Glock 19 at minimum. On the contrary, the Old Man Gun concept actually has a lot of support on this forum. My wife even has a P250 380 because while she can shoot her P226 accurately, she can't handle the recoil or manipulate the slide well. For this reason I'd be totally supportive (am, actually) of her having mousegun caliber guns that are easy to handle like the Beretta Cheetah, Shield EZ, Glock 42, P250. I even just stopped by VA Arms Co (literally sitting in the parking lot as I type this) to see if they have any Glock 42s left (for any NoVA folks, they don't).

So, honestly, where is this idea being presented as a commonly held theme?

[JHC]

Chris,

Totally understand, but where are you seeing people discourage those of lesser abilities from carrying something at all, anything? It certainly isn't this forum. I haven't seen a pattern of people saying that you're going to die if you don't carry a Glock 19 at minimum. On the contrary, the Old Man Gun concept actually has a lot of support on this forum. My wife even has a P250 380 because while she can shoot her P226 accurately, she can't handle the recoil or manipulate the slide well. For this reason I'd be totally supportive (am, actually) of her having mousegun caliber guns that are easy to handle like the Beretta Cheetah, Shield EZ, Glock 42, P250. I even just stopped by VA Arms Co (literally sitting in the parking lot as I type this) to see if they have any Glock 42s left (for any NoVA folks, they don't).

So, honestly, where is this idea being presented as a commonly held theme?

Well put. If a friend who is not a gun and self defense enthusiast tells me they now want to get and learn and carry a pistol, I don't recommend the service pistols I EDC. I'll expose them to them. Let them shoot them. But also small options. My advice is to start small enough they will always carry it. If the bug catches fire they can always upgrade. One big guy chose a G19. A tiny female highly recoil averse who could not even pull a J frames trigger without two fingers chose a P32 that ran well.

[Crazy Dane]

Chris,

Totally understand, but where are you seeing people discourage those of lesser abilities from carrying something at all, anything? It certainly isn't this forum. I haven't seen a pattern of people saying that you're going to die if you don't carry a Glock 19 at minimum. On the contrary, the Old Man Gun concept actually has a lot of support on this forum. My wife even has a P250 380 because while she can shoot her P226 accurately, she can't handle the recoil or manipulate the slide well. For this reason I'd be totally supportive (am, actually) of her having mousegun caliber guns that are easy to handle like the Beretta Cheetah, Shield EZ, Glock 42, P250. I even just stopped by VA Arms Co (literally sitting in the parking lot as I type this) to see if they have any Glock 42s left (for any NoVA folks, they don't).

So, honestly, where is this idea being presented as a commonly held theme?

I have been following along with this thread as it relates to my current firearm needs and I can say that this, the in bold, is not directly stated but seems to be implied is several posts. I have found first hand that when my(anyone's not necessarily mine) needs don't match their needs and vice versa and because they don't match, my needs are wrong and will get me kilt in the streets. Whether or not they actually mean it, it is how it comes across.

[sharps54]

One thing to remember if the issue is recoil that some of the .380s actually aren’t that bad to shoot, the P32 .32 ACP isn’t bad and most folks here recommend wadcutters for carry in .38s.

[TGS]

I have been following along with this thread as it relates to my current firearm needs and I can say that this, the in bold, is not directly stated but seems to be implied is several posts. I have found first hand that when my(anyone's not necessarily mine) needs don't match their needs and vice versa and because they don't match, my needs are wrong and will get me kilt in the streets. Whether or not they actually mean it, it is how it comes across.

Thanks.

If it's one of my posts can you PM which one and what wording?

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks for mentioning the video. Claude can chime in if he would like to clarify any of his statements. I can't say this is a conversation I care to join myself, though. Reading through this thread just now was an exercise in frustration, and attempting to offer any additional perspective seems futile. Ya'll are some bullheaded people.

I’m not sure why you say that. I found this thread remarkably good natured and open for a gun forum, although typical for PF.

What do you think this discussion should look like?

I respect Claude. And I respect the many other SMEs we have here. My evaluation is as follows:

Small guns are hard to shoot well. Poorly trained shooters have difficulty hitting even large, close targets with mouseguns.

Sub calibers are much worse at stopping threats than good 9mm.

Sometimes FIBS (fuck I’ve been shot) makes the bad guy stop.

OC spray may be as good or a better choice for people who are not proficient with guns.

Sometimes criminals come in groups. See below.

“
At 10:10 p.m. on Tuesday, March 27, Seattle police responded to help two men who had been walking in the 5200 Block of 20th Avenue NE and were approached by two men who displayed handguns and demanded their money. The victims, both UW students, cooperated with the suspects and gave them an undisclosed amount of cash. They were not injured. A third suspect stood in the area while the robbery took place. The three suspects joined another man waiting across the street in an older model Nissan, possibly an Altima, black in color with damage. The four suspects were last seen driving east on NE 54th Street.
“

I prefer to be better prepared than with a .22 revolver or sub caliber mousegun.

[Totem Polar]

One last thought on the "dog walking" or "rule 1" gun: Up to now, we've largely been discussing "LE v Civilian needs" and "psychological" stops v physical incapacitation. One more consideration is dogs. Bear with me for a sec: anyone who's been downtown in any urban center knows the type of dogs I am thinking about. I am not talking about a Staffordshire terrier--bred for fighting, but sweet with kids and adults, going 35-45 lbs; or the classic pit bull terrier weighing in at 45-55. I'm talking about the en vogue upsized American bull crosses that can exceed 100lbs. You all know the dogs--built like a brick outhouse, we see them running loose in urban centers and rural areas alike.

So, it's now around-the-block dog walking time before bed, and a couple of these guys start to aggress. When you reach for your rule 1, how does producing the 8 shots of .22 look compared to even .38 wadcutter against a noggin like that?

Unlike the archetypal street skell, one of these dogs will most certainly not just decide that it has to be someplace else at the first sign of a pistol. I'm not convinced that the .22lr chambering will carry the day in this situation, but we have at least one member here who can vouch for the .38 snub in the same arena. I am open to being persuaded by data, not being expert in the penetration record of both chamberings on dense bone. I also realize that the needs of a middle manager on the 48th floor of an office building are temporarily different than the needs of someone walking their dog before bed; I am not trying to talk past anyone, just looking at another angle.

[BillSWPA]

Thanks for mentioning the video. Claude can chime in if he would like to clarify any of his statements. I can't say this is a conversation I care to join myself, though. Reading through this thread just now was an exercise in frustration, and attempting to offer any additional perspective seems futile. Ya'll are some bullheaded people.

When people who are serious about their training and/or have relevant real world experience have a discussion, that training and experience is going to result in some strong opinions. With that in mind, I have been impressed by the civility and quality of the discussion in this thread. If you have something you believe is worth adding, give it a try.



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[BillSWPA]

One last thought on the "dog walking" or "rule 1" gun: Up to now, we've largely been discussing "LE v Civilian needs" and "psychological" stops v physical incapacitation. One more consideration is dogs. Bear with me for a sec: anyone who's been downtown in any urban center knows the type of dogs I am thinking about. I am not talking about a Staffordshire terrier--bred for fighting, but sweet with kids and adults, going 35-45 lbs; or the classic pit bull terrier weighing in at 45-55. I'm talking about the en vogue upsized American bull crosses that can exceed 100lbs. You all know the dogs--built like a brick outhouse, we see them running loose in urban centers and rural areas alike.

So, it's now around-the-block dog walking time before bed, and a couple of these guys start to aggress. When you reach for your rule 1, how does producing the 8 shots of .22 look compared to even .38 wadcutter against a noggin like that?

Unlike the archetypal street skell, one of these dogs will most certainly not just decide that it has to be someplace else at the first sign of a pistol. I'm not convinced that the .22lr chambering will carry the day in this situation, but we have at least one member here who can vouch for the .38 snub in the same arena. I am open to being persuaded by data, not being expert in the penetration record of both chamberings on dense bone. I also realize that the needs of a middle manager on the 48th floor of an office building are temporarily different than the needs of someone walking their dog before bed; I am not trying to talk past anyone, just looking at another angle.

About 1 1/2 years ago, I almost lost one of my thumbs to a 160 lb. mis-bred Great Dane. Had the owners not quickly gotten control of that beast, I would have been especially glad I was carrying a 9mm that day.

Shortly after that incident, I ran into a Rottweiler- Great Dane mix at the groomer where I was picking up my dog. Fortunately it was friendly, and letting it sniff me and petting it got it calmed down quickly, but that beast could have done damage if it was so inclined.

So, I agree that dogs are a serious consideration.



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[RevolverRob]

Unlike the archetypal street skell, one of these dogs will most certainly not just decide that it has to be someplace else at the first sign of a pistol. I'm not convinced that the .22lr chambering will carry the day in this situation, but we have at least one member here who can vouch for the .38 snub in the same arena. I am open to being persuaded by data, not being expert in the penetration record of both chamberings on dense bone. I also realize that the needs of a middle manager on the 48th floor of an office building are temporarily different than the needs of someone walking their dog before bed; I am not trying to talk past anyone, just looking at another angle.

I've shot one dog, a loose American pitbull. It took one round of 158-grain LHP between the eyes and dropped like a stone.

In my experience, even big dog skulls are not as dense and thick as humans skulls. A .22 between the eyes should work as well as a .38. Also, unless the dog in question is rabid, it's been my experience once a dog realizes it's outgunned in a fight, it will break and run, if possible. The exception there might be if someone released a fighting trained pitbull on you.

[willie]

In the distant past a neighbor attempted to dispatch two large stray dogs that were killing his chickens. His weapon was a Luger. Ammo was fmj. The rounds performed poorly and inhumanely. Had the animals been enraged pit bulls, they could have done harm before dying. When I was a kid, I shot many rabbits with a P38 with military ammo. It was not unusual for then to run some distance before dying. It stands to reason that a .22 J frame would not have done better on either case.

[Jared]

The quick 7-11 run gun thing always bugs me just a little. Of all my trips out and about, the one that I really thought was going to go sideways was a short run to a gas station 2 miles from my house in a rural area.

I went inside to prepay and walked into a situation with the most agitated angry interaction between patron and employee I'd ever personally ever seen. The dude was ranting and waving his arms angry, cursing, yelling, the whole bit. I'd left all handguns at home because "it's just a quick trip up the road and nothing happens out here."

Thankfully, another employee stepped in and defused the situation. The dude left. After I left I thought a lot about the "forfeits" Tom Givens talks about. Had that fellow decided he wasn't going to be de-escalated it would have been bad. Here we were, out in the sticks with a loooong police response time and the five people there were two older ladies, myself, and one early twenties man against a large well built dude.

I had no reason to be unarmed except laziness. I'm glad it turned out ok.

I'm not normally one for excessive Monday morning quarterbacking things. However, I decided after that day that if I went out, I definitely wanted the most capable thing I could have. Most of the time that means a PX4CC. Sometimes when dress or situation mandates that means a 38 snub.

I don't have a problem with someone looking at their situation and needs (especially physical handicaps) and deciding that a rimfire is the best option they have. Carry it, train with it, do your best. Odds are that it'll be enough. As for me, had that particular scenario gone bad, I would not have wanted to try to resolve it with a 22 snub. As enraged as that fellow was, I doubt he would have been very impressed with a mere display of a firearm.

Dogs have been brought up. Apparently I do not learn things too well. I took my the 1 year old daughter for a ride in her little wagon. I live out in the country and started walking up the road with her riding in her wagon. Because I'm an idiot, I forgot about the large pit bull that lives about half a mile down the road and is often loose. Again, stupid me is unarmed because everyone out here is a neighbor. Well, dogs ain't people. The dog started following us. I managed to defuse that by picking up a rock. Apparently the dog knew what that meant and went home. Again, here I am in the middle of the road with a 1 year old, no help, and a big dog. I could have easily had my 642. I'd have much rather had that than a rimfire for a dog that big. Either would have beat what I actually had.

I don't look down on anyone for carrying a rimfire. You do you. But two situations, one with a human and one with an animal, have reinforced, for me, the importance of having the most capable thing I can.

[mtnbkr]

Chris,

Totally understand, but where are you seeing people discourage those of lesser abilities from carrying something at all, anything? It certainly isn't this forum. I haven't seen a pattern of people saying that you're going to die if you don't carry a Glock 19 at minimum. On the contrary, the Old Man Gun concept actually has a lot of support on this forum. My wife even has a P250 380 because while she can shoot her P226 accurately, she can't handle the recoil or manipulate the slide well. For this reason I'd be totally supportive (am, actually) of her having mousegun caliber guns that are easy to handle like the Beretta Cheetah, Shield EZ, Glock 42, P250. I even just stopped by VA Arms Co (literally sitting in the parking lot as I type this) to see if they have any Glock 42s left (for any NoVA folks, they don't).

So, honestly, where is this idea being presented as a commonly held theme?

Sorry, I was speaking more generally as a cultural group, not PF specifically. And it's not overt discouragement of folks from carrying at all, but more of a mindset that if you can't manage a G19 (using it as my generic service gun example), then you're going to get killed. Your 38 snub, 380, 32, etc are too small to be useful.

If you were at VA Arms, you were less than 2 miles from my house. It's not unusual for me to ride my bike over there, check out some guns, then hit Bad Wolf at the other end of the shopping center for a pint before riding home again. :)


I’m not sure why you say that. I found this thread remarkably good natured and open for a gun forum, although typical for PF.
OC spray may be as good or a better choice for people who are not proficient with guns.
I've avoided mentioning OC in this thread because it was specifically about guns, but I've started incorporating OC into my suggestion pool for folks who want to be protected but aren't quite ready for a gun. In fact, my 15yo daughter is accompanying me to an FPF OC class in January.


One last thought on the "dog walking" or "rule 1" gun: Up to now, we've largely been discussing "LE v Civilian needs" and "psychological" stops v physical incapacitation. One more consideration is dogs. Bear with me for a sec: anyone who's been downtown in any urban center knows the type of dogs I am thinking about. I am not talking about a Staffordshire terrier--bred for fighting, but sweet with kids and adults, going 35-45 lbs; or the classic pit bull terrier weighing in at 45-55. I'm talking about the en vogue upsized American bull crosses that can exceed 100lbs. You all know the dogs--built like a brick outhouse, we see them running loose in urban centers and rural areas alike.

So, it's now around-the-block dog walking time before bed, and a couple of these guys start to aggress. When you reach for your rule 1, how does producing the 8 shots of .22 look compared to even .38 wadcutter against a noggin like that?

Now you're kind of speaking to me without realizing it. One of the motivators for getting my CCW was so I could carry in the national forest outside of hunting season (hiking, camping, etc). I was mauled by a pit/boxer mix when I was 8 (45 now) and still have minor phobias about dealing with aggressive dogs. In nearly 20 years of CCW, I've never felt the need to even put my hand on my gun in response to a human threat (real or perceived), but I've come close to drawing on dogs twice. One was a GSD being walked by an older couple one night. The dog was off the leash and started approaching me and my dog from 25yds away while growling and snarling. I put my hand on the gun in the strong side OWB holster and called out for them to control their dog. They called it back and it complied so I took a different vector and continued onward to home. The second incident was during the day and involved an encounter with a typical urban yout and his overbuilt pit bull. Again, I was walking my dog (different one by this time). We crossed paths at an angle and when we were about 10ft away, his dog started barking and pulling toward us. Skinny yout was having some difficulty controlling his dog on the heavy logging chain that was in vogue at the time. I said, "hey man, control your dog" while my hand was on the j-frame in my pocket. Yout replied, "he's ok, if he wanted to hurt you, I wouldn't be able to stop him anyway". We continued on with no further drama.

Oddly enough, I'm not as bothered by carnivorous wild animals in the woods. I've had bears and coyotes cross my path and I normally just shoo them off. Domestic dogs of unknown status tend to bother me unless they're bootable. Thing is, I LOVE dogs. It would really sadden me if I had to take action.


The quick 7-11 run gun thing always bugs me just a little. Of all my trips out and about, the one that I really thought was going to go sideways was a short run to a gas station 2 miles from my house in a rural area.
AIWB carry with a quality holster has really made it hard to be lazy about gearing up for a quick trip to the store. I can slip the G19 into my pants as quickly as I can drop a BUG into my pocket. My main reason for keeping the J-frame in rotation is that the G19 can be uncomfortable on long drives or hard to conceal adequately in shorts and a t-shirt (doable, but not as well as I'd like). I can work underneath my truck with the j-frame, but not the G19. Either one goes on quickly, so there's no need for something smaller or to go unarmed out of laziness. If I'm unarmed, it's because I'm in an NPE.

Chris

[mmc45414]

I can work underneath my truck with the j-frame, but not the G19.
This is (sorta) off the main topic, but is another aspect of any small gun. A few weeks ago I was installing flooring at a friend's house and packed a J in one of the Hot Jox (Desantis Smart Carry copy) under gym shorts. I was going to be up and down and on my knees and bending over and it was going to be warm enough I might want my shirt off. At the end of the day I reflected on how I even forgot it was there, deeply concealed and very comfortable. In that situation I would have been off body with a full size gun.

[sharps54]

Somewhere things got off track in this thread, I’m not sure anyone was saying you’ll get killed for occasional carrying a J frame. What people were saying was that .22 is inferior to .38. With quality .38 wadcutters available unless one has medical reasons that requires the .22 they are better off with the larger caliber.

[spinmove_]

I’m not sure anyone is advocating strictly carrying a .22 above all else. I think, or at least I’ve gathered, that unless there’s a physical/medical limitation to carrying something bigger and more robust, it’s better to have a .22 than nothing at all.

In my case specifically, with how I dress for work, and the anti-gun culture there, carrying something like a G19 isn’t going to happen. It’s just not. I need to be able to make something DISAPPEAR or have a means of shoving something in a front pocket in the morning, stowing it in a car safe during the day, and shoving it back in my pocket before I drive home. I can’t do that with a G19 or a G26. I could probably do that with a J-frame. I could probably do it even better with an LCP.


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[Duelist]

I’m not sure anyone is advocating strictly carrying a .22 above all else. I think, or at least I’ve gathered, that unless there’s a physical/medical limitation to carrying something bigger and more robust, it’s better to have a .22 than nothing at all.

In my case specifically, with how I dress for work, and the anti-gun culture there, carrying something like a G19 isn’t going to happen. It’s just not. I need to be able to make something DISAPPEAR or have a means of shoving something in a front pocket in the morning, stowing it in a car safe during the day, and shoving it back in my pocket before I drive home. I can’t do that with a G19 or a G26. I could probably do that with a J-frame. I could probably do it even better with an LCP.


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My G26 mostly lives in a car safe, in an aholster holster, during work hours. I don’t carry it in a pocket, though.

When attire says that IWB G26 isn’t going to happen, smaller pocket guns take its place: G42, 642, P32. They are considered in that order. All of my .22s are full-size, but I think about getting a fun-size one now and then. If there was a G42 .22 kit, I’d end up getting 2.

[Crazy Dane]

I think what would help with this whole debate is if you haven't already, is to take the time and do a threat assessment and a planned response to the findings. I just redid mine for around my house and I found that on a regular basis I violate the first rule of a gun fight. Without going into details, to remedy this, I need a small light pistol/revolver in a caliber that will reliably stop large aggressive dogs. This is my need for when I am in around my home. My needs are different when I drive 60 miles away to work in the "big" city. My wife's assessment is totally different than mine because she is LEO. If someone has assessed their situation and determined that a .22 j-frame is all they need, why do we jump in and argue that its wrong? I'm sure somewhere out there someone has determined all they need is a speedo and a margarita and someone else needs a belt fed with CAS on tap.

[spinmove_]

I’m not sure anyone is advocating strictly carrying a .22 above all else. I think, or at least I’ve gathered, that unless there’s a physical/medical limitation to carrying something bigger and more robust, it’s better to have a .22 than nothing at all.

In my case specifically, with how I dress for work, and the anti-gun culture there, carrying something like a G19 isn’t going to happen. It’s just not. I need to be able to make something DISAPPEAR or have a means of shoving something in a front pocket in the morning, stowing it in a car safe during the day, and shoving it back in my pocket before I drive home. I can’t do that with a G19 or a G26. I could probably do that with a J-frame. I could probably do it even better with an LCP.


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Just to clarify this further, if I’m not working that day and I have the ability to conceal a G19, I most certainly will.


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[sharps54]

I think what would help with this whole debate is if you haven't already, is to take the time and do a threat assessment and a planned response to the findings. I just redid mine for around my house and I found that on a regular basis I violate the first rule of a gun fight. Without going into details, to remedy this, I need a small light pistol/revolver in a caliber that will reliably stop large aggressive dogs. This is my need for when I am in around my home. My needs are different when I drive 60 miles away to work in the "big" city. My wife's assessment is totally different than mine because she is LEO. If someone has assessed their situation and determined that a .22 j-frame is all they need, why do we jump in and argue that its wrong? I'm sure somewhere out there someone has determined all they need is a speedo and a margarita and someone else needs a belt fed with CAS on tap.

The issue is that for a .22 J frame to be all you need you would have to have physical limitations regarding recoil, severe financial limitations, or the only threats you assess are paper targets. There are other calibers that are more effective in guns the same size as lightweight.22s. If the first two apply you have to do what you can do and make the best of it, that might be a .22 and no one is disputing that. The issue comes in when people deliberately ignore reality with excuses on why .22 is enough.

Edit to add the only other case for a .22 would be deep concealment in a NPE where you have total faith in your 21A but none in the Keltec P32 or LCP.

[Stephanie B]

I was mauled by a pit/boxer mix when I was 8 (45 now) and still have minor phobias about dealing with aggressive dogs. In nearly 20 years of CCW, I've never felt the need to even put my hand on my gun in response to a human threat (real or perceived), but I've come close to drawing on dogs twice.
I often go for a walk early in the morning when the weather was warm. I carry a 3" Model 60 with Ranger +Ps. A year ago last Spring, I had a funny feeling, so I turned and saw that I was being followed by two largish mutts, about 60lbs or so, black/brown short hair. I drew the gun, but I kept it alongside my leg. In a loud command voice, I ordered the dogs to go home. They stopped moving towards me.

I said that three times without otherwise moving. The dogs turned around and left. I holstered the gun and went on about my walk.

I never saw them again.

[41magfan]

Fair enough. The reason why I ask is that, at least for MY use case, I would actually be carrying it daily in a front pocket. As in, legitimately 5-7 days a week.

From others that I’ve talked to, that kind of frequent pocket carry is why a J-frame works so well. Not that it doesn’t need to be cleaned, but it seems to stand up to neglect a skosh better in that regard.

Still, at the LCP’s price, it’s tempting to scoop one up and start putting it through it’s paces.


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For the last 7 yrs or so I've carried an LCP in my front pocket 12+ hours a day, everyday. With a proper holster, the only part of the gun that's "exposed" to any degree is the back of the slide where the hammer slot is located.

My daily maintenance routine in the evenings takes all of 30 seconds; I dust off the gun with a soft bristled shaving brush and examine the hammer slot for debris. As needed, I run a Q-Tip into the slide cut to remove any lint that worked its way in there. Next, I remove the magazine and blow out any dust that's found its way into the magwell.

Since I have a dedicated training gun and several carry guns, the carry guns get stripped and re-lubed 3 or 4 times a year. It's surprising how much debris I find "inside" when I take them apart but it's never enough to cause issues with reliability. Every so often, all my stuff gets run through an ultrasonic cleaner.

[BillSWPA]

I often go for a walk early in the morning when the weather was warm. I carry a 3" Model 60 with Ranger +Ps. A year ago last Spring, I had a funny feeling, so I turned and saw that I was being followed by two largish mutts, about 60lbs or so, black/brown short hair. I drew the gun, but I kept it alongside my leg. In a loud command voice, I ordered the dogs to go home. They stopped moving towards me.

I said that three times without otherwise moving. The dogs turned around and left. I holstered the gun and went on about my walk.

I never saw them again.

Well handled.



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[TheNewbie]

For the last 7 yrs or so I've carried an LCP in my front pocket 12+ hours a day, everyday. With a proper holster, the only part of the gun that's "exposed" to any degree is the back of the slide where the hammer slot is located.

My daily maintenance routine in the evenings takes all of 30 seconds; I dust off the gun with a soft bristled shaving brush and examine the hammer slot for debris. As needed, I run a Q-Tip into the slide cut to remove any lint that worked its way in there. Next, I remove the magazine and blow out any dust that's found its way into the magwell.

Since I have a dedicated training gun and several carry guns, the carry guns get stripped and re-lubed 3 or 4 times a year. It's surprising how much debris I find "inside" when I take them apart but it's never enough to cause issues with reliability. Every so often, all my stuff gets run through an ultrasonic cleaner.



Ironically, two LCPs are the only .380s I have had that were/are reliable. P232s, Glock 42, and EZ Shield all had issues.


It amazes me how accurate and reliable the thing is, considering what it is.

[OlongJohnson]

Every so often, all my stuff gets run through an ultrasonic cleaner.

Careful about the cleaning solution on aluminum bits. Some of them are mildly caustic, which can play hell with anodizing.

[JCS]

Thanks for all the replies and civil conversation. This has been a great thread so far. I think I have the answer to my question. BehindblueI’s post keeps sticking out to me. I am going to still get a 43c to compliment the 442 because of the weight, it’ll make a great gun for new shooters and maybe it will be a gun my wife will be willing to shoot

I am now intrigued by reloading .38. Idk if I shoot enough to make it cost effective. I have a Dillon 550b so I’d just have to buy the dies.

[OlongJohnson]

Lee carbide dies are cheap. HBWC bullets are really cheap. Wadcutter loads use about 3 grains of powder. Do it.

[mmc45414]

I am going to still get a 43c to compliment the 442Both is always the best answer! :)


I am now intrigued by reloading .38. Idk if I shoot enough to make it cost effective. I have a Dillon 550b so I’d just have to buy the dies.

Lee carbide dies are cheap. HBWC bullets are really cheap. Wadcutter loads use about 3 grains of powder. Do it.Shoot more is another obvious answer :)
Also, if you are considering it anyway you might buy the dies before the 43c, you can really load some soft 38. Research the Cowboy Action loads.

[Jared]

Reloading 38 is a good decision if you already have a press in my mind. You can save a ton of money vs buying factory on 38. As mentioned, researching the SASS loads will lead to some exceptionally light recoiling 38 recipes. For those times when 22LR gets scarce, you still have a source of low cost training ammo.

I'd still have the 22 though. I'm in the process of moving myself from the J frame side of this to the Ruger LCR family, but either way is great. The handloaded 38 ammo can get you trigger time on the carry revolver and the rimfire can give you a great deal of low cost practice when you don't want to have to reload the ammo later.

Finally, having a 22 around is a great way to introduce non shooters to the sport should you be in a situation to try that. Recently I was with a friend shooting and his SIL brought his grandson out. I let the boy try a shot from my G42. He hit his mark, but went right back to shooting a 10/22 that was there. I still kick myself for not having a rimfire revolver with me to let him try. There was just a little more recoil and noise from even the G42 than the young man wanted on his first go round.

[OlongJohnson]

Just bought a case of German-made .22LR for $207 shipped. Life is good.

[JCS]

Just bought a case of German-made .22LR for $207 shipped. Life is good.

I’m assuming a case of .22 is more than 1,000 rounds?

Looks like lee dies are $33 on Amazon. Hmm that’s much cheaper than I thought.

[OlongJohnson]

I’m assuming a case of .22 is more than 1,000 rounds?

Looks like lee dies are $33 on Amazon. Hmm that’s much cheaper than I thought.

With Lee, you can afford the carbide.

A brick of .22LR is 500 rounds.

A case of .22LR is 5000 rounds.

[BehindBlueI's]

Reloading 38 is a good decision if you already have a press in my mind. You can save a ton of money vs buying factory on 38.

I load more .38 wadcutters then anything these days.

[JCS]

I load more .38 wadcutters then anything these days.

What load are you using and what’s the cost per round?

[Jamie]

As to handloading .38's, I/we cast and powder coat 130 gr rounds. I'm able to handload .38's using 2.7 grs of Bullseye with Winchester small pistol primers, using range pickup brass I've accumulated, for less than $.05 per round.
.38 brass can be reloaded many, many times. I usually reload it until I eventually get a split in the brass and then toss them. The 2.7 grs of Bullseye is an accurate and very soft recoiling load.
Even if you purchase bulk bullets, i.e. Missouri Bullet Co. has them for less than $.10 each, handloading is still a bargain. (by my calculations $.12 per round).
I've pocket carried a 640 J frame (.38) since 1992 and it simply loves these rounds.

This is a very interesting thread and has me considering picking up an LCR in .22, just as a range option and introductory shooter for new to shooting folks.

But since I just picked up a 1967 vintage Model 10 2" in immaculate condition last week (you folks are truly enablers!), the LCR may have to wait a bit... :)

[mmc45414]

I have a Dillon 550b so I’d just have to buy the dies.I thought I should add that you also probably need the conversion setup for the 550:
https://www.dillonprecision.com/rl-550-caliber-conversion-kit_8_2_23598.html

[BehindBlueI's]

What load are you using and what’s the cost per round?

3.7 gr of CFE-Pistol and a 148 gr plated WC.

14.5 cents + brass cost

You can load cheaper with lead, but I like the no-mess loading and less smoky plated bullets.

[mmc45414]

You can load cheaper with lead, but I like the no-mess loading and less smoky plated bullets.I should try some in 38, just that the mess and the smoke are remnants of my long lost youth :)

[WheelGunMan]

Curious on people’s thoughts on this topic. For a j frame, rule 1 gun would you prefer 5 rounds of 38, 7 rounds of 22 mag or even 8 rounds of .22?

I’ve seen some well respected dudes, Caleb Giddings, Claude Werner and John Johnston all recently discuss carrying 22 revolvers.

Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?

ETA: For my purposes this gun would fill a specific role. More of a rule 1 gun. Not a primary carry piece but a supplemental carry piece to larger and more effective firearms.

For my EDC I use a 5 shot LCR .357 loaded with .38 Spcl. I've carried a 6 shot .22WMR as a BUG, I've also carried the .22WMR as primary. I don't feel undergunned with either.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Same old answer - you are probably ok with the single close up opponent.

Give me your wallet.

Wave gun

He goes away.

Being in some low probability but not unknown nightmare scenario such Pittsburgh or Parkland, I prefer to have my usual Glock and an extra mag. Not that is great choice when faced with long arms.

I have a friend who used to do the good 'ol Taurus 85 to church. Now he goes Glock.

I ask you if you were the gentlemen who sheltered in the dark room at the Tree of Life. The door opens and the monster with a long arm opens the door. Sidebar: I feel so sorry for the poor old guy (around my age) who opened the door because he thought it was over and died. Anyway, the door opens - would you rather have an easily carried 9mm or large cal. semi or a 22 WMR revolver?

Just do what your risk analysis says works for you. Accept the consequences if you are wrong about the cutoff on the risk continuum. Don't say that the small gun is a good solution and those who do more are nuts. Just say, it works for you and you accept a lowered ability in the anomaly of an intensive critical incident.

[BillSWPA]

I am probably one of the more frequent advocates of mouseguns on this forum. However, unless I am going somewhere wherein the consequences for getting caught are more significant than merely being asked to leave and not to return, my personal minimum is my Glock 26.


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[TGS]

Just do what your risk analysis says works for you. Accept the consequences if you are wrong about the cutoff on the risk continuum. Don't say that the small gun is a good solution and those who do more are nuts. Just say, it works for you and you accept a lowered ability in the anomaly of an intensive critical incident.

This is good.

Sidenote: most people don't have a fucking clue about how to properly assess risk. It almost ends up being a practice of what I first posted in this thread:


The ideas discussed here are an effort to make reality conform to a persons thoughts on how a fight should go.....and not making your choices conform to reality.

[mmc45414]

Just do what your risk analysis says works for you. Accept the consequences if you are wrong about the cutoff on the risk continuum. Don't say that the small gun is a good solution and those who do more are nuts. Just say, it works for you and you accept a lowered ability in the anomaly of an intensive critical incident.
Years ago I saw George Carlin in person, one of his jokes I have always remembered:
Why is it that everyone going slower than you is an idiot, and everyone going faster than you is a maniac? :)

[willie]

Does it boil down to using what we have with us if we have it, and if we decide to do so?

[OlongJohnson]

Does it boil down to using what we have with us if we have it, and if we decide to do so?

Rule 1 always applies.

[BehindBlueI's]

Same old answer - you are probably ok with the single close up opponent.

Give me your wallet.

Wave gun

He goes away.

Or he kills you. Or disarms you, pistol whips you with your own gun, and leaves with it. Or fires simultaneously and you are both hit. Or his previously unknown accomplice puts one right next to your spine.

Rule 1 is great for a gun fight. A robbery isn't a gunfight until one of you makes it one. Rule 1 guys have lost when compliant people have survived in the same situation, as in the example I've already laid out.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Those are good points. I was speaking to the folks who focus on what some called the 'single opponent' incident as being the only one they focus on as most likely. That one can screw that up is certainly well taken.

[BillSWPA]

Years ago I saw George Carlin in person, one of his jokes I have always remembered:
Why is it that everyone going slower than you is an idiot, and everyone going faster than you is a maniac? :)

Some of them really are idiots or maniacs, depending on their speed and the driving conditions at the time. The same principles apply to gun selection.


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[RevolverRob]

There is a reason why some people, cops, soldiers, protection folks - do not usually carry revolvers. We all know that handgun bullets suck, but high on the list of those that suck less are magnum rounds in .357+ size. So, if terminal efficacy were the only criteria in dealing with a “gunfight” then every cop would have an M29 on their hip, but they don’t.

People who seek out badguys foe a living overwhelming choose 9mm or .45 ACP semi-autos with as large a capacity as they can. And often those handguns are in support of a rifle or shotgun. Because multiple assailants is the norm for them. That’s their risk profile. And given that their choices make sense.

The question is - is the average accountant’s risk profile the same? The answer is no. But that doesn’t mean that their risk profile is significantly different either.

One way I evaluate my risk profile, is by studying the crime beat in the local bird cage liner and the notes released by the local PDs for my district. From those data, I’ve gleaned that armed (or implied weapon) robbery/mugging is most common in my area and it typically involves 2-3 perps (sometimes as many as five). So, I carry a multiple assailant gun (9mm STI) most of the time. My research also indicates that most of the time a weapon isn’t even shown to the victim, just implied and force is rarely used, except when there are greater than 3 perps. Then violence is almost always used. There are also specific MOs to each type of mugging/assault, which can allow you to better understand what type of attack you may be a victim of.

Anyways, all of this is getting a bit far afield of the thread topic. But it really does depend on you and where you are, when you do not go actively hunting badguys. Many folks are probably served just fine with a J-frane, but others are definitely “undergunned”. Given that you cannot predict your scenarios with 100% accuracy, the concept of preparing for the worst has merit. But that means you need to figure out what the “worst” is.

[KeithH]

So what guns are the best for aged, injured or arthritic hands? The heavy springs on the .22's are awful. Way too much stress on my fingers to practice with. LCR recoil in .38 is NASTY, stings like hell. I've been moving into heavier 9mm's to get some relief. Are their any handguns that target those with limited hand strength?

If you don't die early every single one of you will have to face this issue one day.

[mmc45414]

I've been moving into heavier 9mm's to get some relief. Are their any handguns that target those with limited hand strength?For about the last year and a half I have been shooting a couple of Ruger 1911s in 9mm, first the lightweight and then the target version, and if you are good with the 1911 it sure would seem like a potential solution. The slide spring weights are light and the triggers are easy and the recoil is very light, even with the aluminum frame.

[BehindBlueI's]

LCR recoil in .38 is NASTY, stings like hell. I've been moving into heavier 9mm's to get some relief. Are their any handguns that target those with limited hand strength?

If you don't die early every single one of you will have to face this issue one day.

The .357 magnum LCR with factory grips and .38 wadcutters is soft enough my dad can shoot it. He has severe RA and tendon issues to the point some of his fingers don't move with the others. He decided to go with a larger revolver in .38 S&W with a bigger grip though, as it's easier for him to not have to close his hands very tight. There's not a lot of ammo to choose from in .38 S&W, though, and I don't think I'd recommend it if you have other options.

I think grip fitment to your hand becomes more important as mobility, pain, and strength issues start to set in your hands.

There are several handguns, like the Shield EZ .380 that are marketed toward those with limited hand strength, but I don't know anything about them other than the ad copy.

[BillSWPA]

So what guns are the best for aged, injured or arthritic hands? The heavy springs on the .22's are awful. Way too much stress on my fingers to practice with. LCR recoil in .38 is NASTY, stings like hell. I've been moving into heavier 9mm's to get some relief. Are their any handguns that target those with limited hand strength?

If you don't die early every single one of you will have to face this issue one day.

I have worked with multiple students with hand or wrist issues, most of them being older females. Anything with a heavy trigger is generally not a good choice, ruling out revolvers. However, a couple of ladies have told me that the way revolvers recoil is easier on their wrists. One uses two fingers on the trigger of an L frame S&W loaded with .38.

The above mentioned S&W .380 EZ seems like a good choice. Springfield XD pistols get a lot of hate here but my family’s experience with two has been 100% good. My wife is very recoil sensitive, but has no problem shooting her XD9. For a smaller concealment gun, a Kel-Tec P-32 works very well, with the caveat that the factory 9 lb. recoil spring MUST be replaced by Wolff 11 lb. springs to avoid failures to feed on the first shot. Adding a +0 finger extension and Crimson Trace LaserGuard really increase the capability of this little gun.



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[Totem Polar]

The question is - is the average accountant’s risk profile the same? The answer is no. But that doesn’t mean that their risk profile is significantly different either...

I’ve recently read (maybe from the rangemaster newsletter, Tom Givens) that something like 74 percent of robberies have multiple assailants, and over 50 percent have 3 or more. Sobering stuff for the j-frame fan, and this is coming from a guy who’s bought 2 j-frames in the last 2 months.




There are several handguns, like the Shield EZ .380 that are marketed toward those with limited hand strength, but I don't know anything about them other than the ad copy.

I semi-convinced my dad to try one of these, after seeing one for myself at the LGS. He likes his a lot, and he is 82 with some attendant hand issues. They are extremely easy to manipulate.

[Duelist]

So what guns are the best for aged, injured or arthritic hands? The heavy springs on the .22's are awful. Way too much stress on my fingers to practice with. LCR recoil in .38 is NASTY, stings like hell. I've been moving into heavier 9mm's to get some relief. Are their any handguns that target those with limited hand strength?

If you don't die early every single one of you will have to face this issue one day.

The G42 is touted as a good geezer gun as well for light recoil, accuracy, and ease of use. My sister is an inexperienced shooter, has hand and wrist issues, but was able to shoot one of ours well. My father prefers other guns, but when he was in the middle of rotator cuff physical therapy and a broken wrist, was able to shoot it without discomfort. He got a pretty little Kimber 9mm aluminum thing that I found incredibly slippery. He could manage the recoil, but had trouble holding onto it for being so slippery.

Mom has a lot of wrist and hand strength issues. Her gun is a Beretta 21a. She can load it and shoot it. She isn’t too interested in shooting, and just wanted something that she could manage without trouble.

[revchuck38]

Part 1 (http://blog.krtraining.com/smith-and-wesson-ez-380-gun-review/)

Part 2 (http://blog.krtraining.com/smith-and-wesson-ez-380-gun-review-2/)

Just FYI.

[SiriusBlunder]

So what guns are the best for aged, injured or arthritic hands?

A shooting buddy in his late 70's is having problem with w/arthritis and recently picked up a Walther CCP. He says it's easy to rack and very soft shooting. His EDC is a Glock 26 and he's thinking of replacing it with the CCP once vetted.

I have not shot it yet and know nothing about it other than online reviews and his thoughts, though.

[BillSWPA]

Part 1 (http://blog.krtraining.com/smith-and-wesson-ez-380-gun-review/)

Part 2 (http://blog.krtraining.com/smith-and-wesson-ez-380-gun-review-2/)

Just FYI.

Very good information, but I will respectfully disagree with the author re: sights. Look at any randomly selected sight thread on this forum, and it will contain almost as many preferences as it has participants. A 3 dot sight setup provides good visibility under a wide range of conditions. As much as I like tritium, I prefer that my guns not come from the factory with tritium so that I am. It paying an extra $100+ for sights I will end up replacing. Some might prefer fiber optic, but again, supplying the gun that way just increases the cost of something that many will replace.



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[Sal Picante]

Les Pepperoni, have you tried a LCP I (gen 2)? I shoot mine better than any mousegun I’ve tried. It’s been trouble free as well. For $170, it’s worth a try.

So I found a $150 KelTec P32 before I left for Chicago. It seemed to do fine with ~92rds of ammo ($26 a box?!!).
Took it with and had some fun... Bought another couple of boxes of 32 while I was up there and tested for reliability. The trigger is a bit... rough, but it shot very well and recoils really easily.

<10oz loaded with 8 rds. I'll take it!

p/BqqNXj7Hn4M

The reason over the .380? Was just lighter...

[OlongJohnson]

7.65mm - with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8

[Clusterfrack]

Very cool! And good shooting. Literally the only experience I have with .32 ACP is when I find one of the little shells hidden inside a 9mm case and it buggers my reloading.

Now let's see some Gabe White drills! We can have a mousegun shootoff.


So I found a $150 KelTec P32 before I left for Chicago. It seemed to do fine with ~92rds of ammo ($26 a box?!!).
Took it with and had some fun... Bought another couple of boxes of 32 while I was up there and tested for reliability. The trigger is a bit... rough, but it shot very well and recoils really easily.

<10oz loaded with 8 rds. I'll take it!

p/BqqNXj7Hn4M

The reason over the .380? Was just lighter...

[Sal Picante]

Very cool! And good shooting. Literally the only experience I have with .32 ACP is when I find one of the little shells hidden inside a 9mm case and it buggers my reloading.

Now let's see some Gabe White drills! We can have a mousegun shootoff.

That gives me some ideas for videos when I get back to the range!

[Stephanie B]

7.65mm - with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8

With what little I have heard about the intelligence community, I can’t imagine a British spy chief saying “the Americans swear by them” without sarcasm.

[Duelist]

With what little I have heard about the intelligence community, I can’t imagine a British spy chief saying “the Americans swear by them” without sarcasm.

It’s always struck me a bit that way, too. But in the Fleming novels, and in the movies, Bond seems to have a very congenial, collegiate relationship with U.S. intelligence.

[BillSWPA]

The fact that the Walther PPK would fit the same shoulder holster as the Beretta .25 doesn't say much about the choice of holsters.

There was a time when .32 auto was regarded as an adequate police cartridge in Europe, although I will not argue for the correctness of that position.

[Mark D]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to offer an observation about rimfire ammo.

At my local Steel Challenge match, it's not uncommon to see a couple thousand rounds of .22LR fired in a match by the various members of a squad. (Rimfires tend to dominate Steel Challenge in my area). Despite the reported reliability of rimfire ammo, I still see a fairly high number of ammo-related problems.

I don't see similar ammo-related issues in the center-fired guns.

Just an observation. Your mileage may vary.

[Lester Polfus]

It’s always struck me a bit that way, too. But in the Fleming novels, and in the movies, Bond seems to have a very congenial, collegiate relationship with U.S. intelligence.

Especially Cedar Leiter.

[Stephanie B]

The fact that the Walther PPK would fit the same shoulder holster as the Beretta .25 doesn't say much about the choice of holsters.
May by JayPee?


There was a time when .32 auto was regarded as an adequate police cartridge in Europe, although I will not argue for the correctness of that position.
i’m probably stealing this line from Tam: The .32 was adequate for shooting dissidents and Jews in the back of their heads. Which was probably good enough for the Euro cops at the time.

[revchuck38]

i’m probably stealing this line from Tam: The .32 was adequate for shooting dissidents and Jews in the back of their heads. Which was probably good enough for the Euro cops at the time.

FWIW, Walther PPs were in use until the P5/6/7s came on line in the mid-to-late 70s.

[BillSWPA]

May by JayPee?

i’m probably stealing this line from Tam: The .32 was adequate for shooting dissidents and Jews in the back of their heads. Which was probably good enough for the Euro cops at the time.

I did a search for Jay Pee holsters, and they did make a few vertical shoulder holsters as well as upside down holsters. All of the holsters I saw were designed for a specific configuration of gun. Is there one you had in mind?

If I recall correctly, the French police used .32 autos until some violence in the 2nd half of the 20th century caused them to send someone to the FBI Academy. That individual came back and ultimately led them to adopt Manurhin MR73 revolver.



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[Stephanie B]

I did a search for Jay Pee holsters, and they did make a few vertical shoulder holsters as well as upside down holsters. All of the holsters I saw were designed for a specific configuration of gun. Is there one you had in mind? I was thinking of their reputation for making holsters they were a little more than leather sacks. Mas reportedly joked that if someone plucked and skinned a chicken, Jay Pee would make a holster from it.



Damn the iPhone Typos!

[Hambo]

It seemed to do fine with ~92rds of ammo ($26 a box?!!).


That's the kind of data I like to bet my life on. ;) I confess that I dabbled in .32s at one point, but only as BUGs. A Seecamp and Keltec both worked about the same, but I had an extended mag for the Keltec. Quantity has a quality all its own in .32.

[BillSWPA]

Kel-Tec makes the best .32 in my opinion, and certainly makes the one with the least recoil in that size .32. However, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of replacing the factory 9 lb. recoil springs with Wolff 11 lb. springs.

.32 is a semi-rimmed cartridge. With 7 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber, the rim of the top cartridge in the magazine will often be within the groove in the cartridge below it. In my experience the 9 lb. springs will fail to overcome this condition about 40-50% of the time, but the 11 lb. springs will overcome it 100% of the time.

If the gun is only tested loaded with 7 rounds, and then carried with 7+1, the user will be completely unaware that they have almost a 50% likelihood that they are carrying a single shot pistol.

Another possible issue with .32 is rimlock, wherein the rim of one cartridge in the magazine is behind the rim of the cartridge below it. If this occurs, no springs will overcome it. The only reasonably quick solution is a spare magazine.

Although some on other forums have proposed spacers to prevent this issue, my own experimentation with spacers - both homemade and supplied by Kel-Tec - has shown that they create such a high likelihood of premature slidelock that they create more problems than they solve.

Rimlock can be completely prevented by careful loading of the rounds into the magazine. In my experience, this is when rimlock occurs. If it is prevented by caution during this process, it will not occur later.

The recoil spring guide is polymer, but steel is available from Kel-Tec. For maximum reliability, stick with polymer. The ability of the guide to flex avoids impeding the motion of the slide. I have tried both.

You may also read about a procedure known as a “fluff & buff” on other forums. DO NOT do it. Not only will it void the warranty, but I have been told by a Kel-Tec gunsmith that they have seen a lot of guns that left the factory in spec taken out of spec by this procedure.


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[Buckeye63]

I lean toward the 5 shot 38spl ... The Federal 130gr HST +P load seems to open up nice ballistic gelatin , which that gives you a baseline .. But a staggered loads with tbe HST load and 148gr DEHCWC seems to be a good option

[BehindBlueI's]

But a staggered loads with tbe HST load and 148gr DEHCWC seems to be a good option

Why?

[Duelist]

Why?

So you can have not-the-same recoil and POI for every shot, obviously. ;)

[Lester Polfus]

So you can have not-the-same recoil and POI for every shot, obviously. ;)

#1) The REAL question is, do you load three HST and two wadcutters or the other way around?

#2) The OTHER real question is, you've got five chambers, why not five different loads?

[RJ]

#1) The REAL question is, do you load three HST and two wadcutters or the other way around?

#2) The OTHER real question is, you've got five chambers, why not five different loads?

Maybe he meant 5 shots of SWC with a reload of hollow points.

I think I read somewhere that reloads of rounds using SWCs are problematic due to the flat profile. JHPs being easier to go in the chsmbers?


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[Buckeye63]

Why?

The HST rounds may or may not penetrate .. I feel they would expand .. The DEHCWC will penetrate .... Both have similar velocity, so POI are very close ...

[Hambo]

But a staggered loads with tbe HST load and 148gr DEHCWC seems to be a good option

This was a bad idea a long time ago (stagger buck/slug, FMJ/JHP) and it's a bad idea now.

[TGS]

The HST rounds may or may not penetrate .. I feel they would expand .. The DEHCWC will penetrate .... Both have similar velocity, so POI are very close ...

The correct solution here is to use a proper JHP that meets performance parameters, such as the Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr+p (RA38) or the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr+p.

[Jared]

Maybe he meant 5 shots of SWC with a reload of hollow points.

I think I read somewhere that reloads of rounds using SWCs are problematic due to the flat profile. JHPs being easier to go in the chsmbers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I dunno about SWC's, but I've read about folks carrying with full wadcutter and carrying a reload of Gold Dot or some other on a speed strip because the conical nature of the hollow points are a LOT easier to align than the WC's are. Speed loading Wadcutters is a bear to do, everything has to be perfect. It's a little better with a speed strip than it is a speed loader (for me) because you're only making two of them absolutely perfect instead of all 6 (or 5) but still not easy.

[RJ]

I dunno about SWC's, but I've read about folks carrying with full wadcutter and carrying a reload of Gold Dot or some other on a speed strip because the conical nature of the hollow points are a LOT easier to align than the WC's are. Speed loading Wadcutters is a bear to do, everything has to be perfect. It's a little better with a speed strip than it is a speed loader (for me) because you're only making two of them absolutely perfect instead of all 6 (or 5) but still not easy.

Yeah, sorry, "Wadcutters" in the generic sense is what I meant referring to "SWCs". I'm still coming up to speed on revolvers. I'll have to go look but I think what I have shot so far through my LCR and Ruger New Model Blackhawk are S&B Semi-Wadcutters.

Thanks for the clarification.

[11B10]

May by JayPee?

i’m probably stealing this line from Tam: The .32 was adequate for shooting dissidents and Jews in the back of their heads. Which was probably good enough for the Euro cops at the time.

Steph/Tam.... I couldn't press the like button, but I'm totally agreeing your post.

[11B10]

Steph/Tam.... I couldn't press the like button, but I'm totally agreeing with your post.

[Jared]

Yeah, sorry, "Wadcutters" in the generic sense is what I meant referring to "SWCs". I'm still coming up to speed on revolvers. I'll have to go look but I think what I have shot so far through my LCR and Ruger New Model Blackhawk are S&B Semi-Wadcutters.

Thanks for the clarification.

Gotcha, no big thing and I wasn't trying to be pedantic. Some SWC's have really sharp shoulders and are a little bit difficult to speed load as well, honestly. I'm not an expert by any means at speed loading a revolver. I've got some Comp II's and III's that I've used a bit and some speed strips. Most of the actual speed loader work I've done has been with K & L frame type stuff. GP100's of late. It's a cool skill to work on though.

[BehindBlueI's]

The HST rounds may or may not penetrate .. I feel they would expand .. The DEHCWC will penetrate .... Both have similar velocity, so POI are very close ...

See below:


The correct solution here is to use a proper JHP that meets performance parameters, such as the Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr+p (RA38) or the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr+p.


Staggering round types is literally never the answer. Either go with a +P that will expand and penetrate reliably or just stick with wadcutters for a lower recoil option with sufficient penetration and less risk of deflection off bone. I don't know anything about the HST offering. I've used the PDX-1 (which I believe is the same as Ranger Bonded) and it worked as advertised.

[Buckeye63]

Wadcutters ... You have HBLWC
Which are Hollow Base Lead Wadcutters
Soft lead loaded at lower velocity...
for punching paper

DEHCWC ,Double end hard cast wadcutters
When loaded to higher pressure thus higher velocity , Buffalo bore & Underwood ... These hold together and pentrate deep and will break bones..

Two different dogs ...

Some 38spl bullets will perform well in gel .... but how will they perform when they hit flesh and bone.

[TGS]

Some 38spl bullets will perform well in gel .... but how will they perform when they hit flesh and bone.

If you're still struggling with the validation of IWBA/FBI gel testing after its 3 decades of use and correlation to successful terminal effects in real life OISs, there's a LOT of reading material for you to catch up on before floating opinions that are counter to it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Some 38spl bullets will perform well in gel .... but how will they perform when they hit flesh and bone.

Actual FBI spec gel testing correlates very well to real world outcomes. Non-spec testing is just that. The specs exist for a reason. Additionally, the full battery of testing is there for a reason. Just doing well in one test isn't the same as doing well in all the tests. Auto glass testing correlates well with bone strikes per both DocGKR and my own observations.

And, to reiterate:



I've used the PDX-1 (which I believe is the same as Ranger Bonded) and it worked as advertised.

[Buckeye63]

If you're still struggling with the validation of IWBA/FBI gel testing after its 3 decades of use and correlation to successful terminal effects in real life OISs, there's a LOT of reading material for you to catch up on before floating opinions that are counter to it.

I have been a Xray tech for 35yrs .. I've yet to do a chest xray with a patient that had no bones ...thats alot of xrays ...
I have harvested alot of whitetail deer ... I have don't think I have ever taken one without hitting a bone ... Bones change the path and integerity of a bullet ...

Even what clothing a person wears can determine how a bullet will react ... The temperature of a cartridge can have a drastic effect on its performance... Cold propellant effects the velocity...

They are alot of variables on the street when compared to a climate controlled test on ballistic gelatin with 4 layers of denim...

[RJ]

Gotcha, no big thing and I wasn't trying to be pedantic. Some SWC's have really sharp shoulders and are a little bit difficult to speed load as well, honestly. I'm not an expert by any means at speed loading a revolver. I've got some Comp II's and III's that I've used a bit and some speed strips. Most of the actual speed loader work I've done has been with K & L frame type stuff. GP100's of late. It's a cool skill to work on though.

This is what I've been shooting - It's in my LCR .357 right now.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-148-grain-lead-wad-cutter-ammo-sellier-bellot-sb38b

I think Chris at Lucky Gunner had a video with three recommended WC loads (this isn't one) that had a bit sportier fps rating - Match ammo or something. I just have not found a local to me source for any of that yet.

I've got a shopping cart going at sg ammo and have asked Sam Gabbart about getting some available; he indicated he'd look into it but i have not seen it in the sgammo store yet. I'll have to look for other online sources but man sgammo has good prices on the stuff I use a lot.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have been a Xray tech for 35yrs .. I've yet to do a chest xray with a patient that had no bones ...thats alot of xrays ...
I have harvested alot of whitetail deer ... I have don't think I have ever taken one without hitting a bone ... Bones change the path and integerity of a bullet ...

Even what clothing a person wears can determine how a bullet will react ... The temperature of a cartridge can have a drastic effect on its performance... Cold propellant effects the velocity...

They are alot of variables on the street when compared to a climate controlled test on ballistic gelatin with 4 layers of denim...

Since you apparently missed it:



Additionally, the full battery of testing is there for a reason. Just doing well in one test isn't the same as doing well in all the tests. Auto glass testing correlates well with bone strikes per both DocGKR and my own observations.


If your cartridge is so temperature sensitive to change the velocity enough to move the bullet from it's designed window, you chose poorly. People who use their ammo for real, and the people who test it, understand that it will be used in various temperatures. We don't issue winter cartridges and summer cartridges.

[Buckeye63]

Since you apparently missed it:




If your cartridge is so temperature sensitive to change the velocity enough to move the bullet from it's designed window, you chose poorly. People who use their ammo for real, and the people who test it, understand that it will be used in various temperatures. We don't issue winter cartridges and summer cartridges.

I really didn't miss anything relevant... Do you know which of your 38spl ammo you have that are effected by cold ? If so what temperature?
Which hollow point 38spl ammo do you chose for carry in your snubbie ? .. They are few , very few that perform in gel tests they way they are advertised... And thats at a range at 10ft shooting into a stationary block of gel with material placed in front of it ...in other words perfect testing ( testing conditions)

38spl out of a 2 inch barrel or shorter ..is not the same as a high pressure round from a longer barrel ... ...
Just not alot of barrel for a low pressure round ..

[BehindBlueI's]

I really didn't miss anything relevant... Do you know which of your 38spl ammo you have that are effected by cold ? If so what temperature?
Which hollow point 38spl ammo do you chose for carry in your snubbie ? .. They are few , very few that perform in gel tests they way they are advertised... And thats at a range at 10ft shooting into a stationary block of gel with material placed in front of it ...in other words perfect testing ( testing conditions)

38spl out of a 2 inch barrel or shorter ..is not the same as a high pressure round from a longer barrel ... ...
Just not alot of barrel for a low pressure round ..

If you don't think the various hollowpoints work, why bother to load one every other chamber?

[psalms144.1]

BBI - seriously, you gotta remember this is the guy who thinks Charter Arms revolvers are good to go. No point in arguing loadings...

[TGS]

I have been a Xray tech for 35yrs .. I've yet to do a chest xray with a patient that had no bones ...thats alot of xrays ...
I have harvested alot of whitetail deer ... I have don't think I have ever taken one without hitting a bone ... Bones change the path and integerity of a bullet ...

Even what clothing a person wears can determine how a bullet will react ... The temperature of a cartridge can have a drastic effect on its performance... Cold propellant effects the velocity...

They are alot of variables on the street when compared to a climate controlled test on ballistic gelatin with 4 layers of denim...

It pretty much all comes back down to this:


... there's a LOT of reading material for you to catch up on before floating opinions that are counter to it.

Being intentionally ignorant and obtuse is not a substitute for decades of extensive research that has been corroborated by real world shooting results.

[Hambo]

I have been a Xray tech for 35yrs


That's a good career. DocGKR has been testing ammo almost that long, and so have others before him. Bullets get designed by engineers, experts in their field. In light of that it's best to follow the advice of experts in the field, not anecdotal evidence, performance on other species, or amateur hour testing.