HST/GD 50R LEO Only [Archive]

Sauer Koch

10-18-2018, 07:35 PM

I noticed today that Bone Frog Gun Club will no longer sell 50 round boxes of HST or GD to civilians...kind of....if you fill out a form, you apply to be a “qualified customer”, and if approved, a non-LEO can purchase it. Is his some kind of screen process?
I’ve bought some from them in the past, but it’s been about a year ago. They say that Federal & Speer are pushing this, and distributors are expected to follow it. Thing is, they are the only one I’ve seen that’s doing this. Is this something that will spread, or will it fizzle out? I’ve always bought my carry ammo in 50r boxes as it’s the only affordable way. The prices on the 20r boxes are ridiculous!

Does anyone have any inside info on this?

ssb

10-18-2018, 07:47 PM

I bought HSTs from them two weeks ago, no issues...

My chosen load is, among other things, not available in commercial packaging so...

CCT125US

10-18-2018, 08:26 PM

Very interesting. Checked:
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-gold-dot-law-enforcement-duty-9mm-luger-ammo-124-grain-p-jhp-53617-p-58577.aspx
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-hollow-point?filter_id=180&jacket_type=104&bullet_type=56
https://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/9mm-ammo?jacket_type=104&manufacturer=134
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ammunition/handgun-ammunition.html?manufacturer=222&caliber_multi=2031

On the 50rd 124+P GDHP, either out of stock, or almost double in price. Strange.

ETA: Just placed an order without issue. I don't recall ever ordering from Bone Frog previously, and did not login or create an account. Looking at the wording it states: "Available for purchase by LE and Qualified Customers". Notice how it does not say "only"?

Ordered out of need, not panic BTW.

JBP55

10-18-2018, 08:45 PM

Very interesting. Checked:
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-gold-dot-law-enforcement-duty-9mm-luger-ammo-124-grain-p-jhp-53617-p-58577.aspx
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-hollow-point?filter_id=180&jacket_type=104&bullet_type=56
https://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/9mm-ammo?jacket_type=104&manufacturer=134
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ammunition/handgun-ammunition.html?manufacturer=222&caliber_multi=2031

On the 50rd 124+P GDHP, either out of stock, or almost double in price. Strange.

Something going on with prices going up quite a bit.
Just checked SGAMMO and their 50 round boxes of 124+P HST and Gold Dot have risen to $30 each plus shipping and they now have the smaller boxes as well.

CCT125US

10-18-2018, 08:48 PM

Check my ETA above.

blues

10-18-2018, 09:18 PM

Interesting. Glad I have enough for the foreseeable future. Somebody must know something we don't? Any industry insiders around?

Norville

10-18-2018, 09:22 PM

I not iced the price of 147 HST went fron low $20 range to $30 in the past few weeks.

Meanwhile the price of practice ammo continues to fall.

Got to make a profit somehow?

fatdog

10-18-2018, 11:06 PM

For grins, filled up my cart with the stuff I have been buying last few years from Target Sports, Bonefrog, and SG Ammo, and everything Federal/Speer has gone up 50% except the .357 Sig stuff....yes, ATK has had some sort of price increase or enforced some sort of rule on non-LE agency sales.

31441

blues

10-19-2018, 08:04 AM

$600 for a thousand rounds is steep.

I want to say the last time I purchased a thousand rounds of HST (standard pressure) it was somewhere between $350 and $400 including the shipping. (GD in standard or +P was slightly less iirc, but in the ballpark.)

lwt16

10-19-2018, 10:00 AM

My local gun shop had six boxes of 50 round HST 147 grain marked factory seconds for 11.00/box. I bought all six and still have some left.

I use it for testing carry pistols to prevent shooting up the factory firsts that I have. Glad I bought those when I did.

Super77

10-20-2018, 10:42 AM

GT Dist might still have some at the old price

revchuck38

10-20-2018, 11:44 AM

GT Dist might still have some at the old price

They do, but only for LE agency or sworn active LEOs now.

El Cid

10-20-2018, 03:06 PM

Someone on here mentioned not too long ago GD G2 prices were about to climb significantly. I thought it was just for G2 so I bought a case from Bonefrog for $480. A few weeks later it jumped to $580. Maybe all ammo from Vista jumped?

revchuck38

10-20-2018, 08:16 PM

FWIW, Remington 147 grain GS is on Doc's list and it's $17/box of 50 here (https://www.targetsportsusa.com/remington-golden-saber-9mm-luger-ammo-147-gr-brass-jhp-gs9mmcb-p-76505.aspx), a case of ten boxes ships free. If Vista is going to get stupid about sales to non-LEOs, I'm fine with switching from HST to something else that works.

Sauer Koch

10-20-2018, 09:34 PM

revchuck38

10-20-2018, 09:43 PM

This is Remingtons premier defense bullet, so why are these 50 round boxes so cheap, compared to GD & HST?

I think this is the first iteration of GS. There are currently bonded and "Black Belt" variations which are newer versions and are more expensive.

Cypher

10-20-2018, 11:49 PM

It's 10/20/18 at 2245 MDT

I just bought 4 50 round boxes of Speer 9mm Gold Dots 124 grain +P from SGAmmo for 132 dollars. It hasn't gone up any thing like 50%

ETA

This is what I bought

50 round box - 9mm Luger +P Speer Gold Dot 124 Grain LE Hollow Point Ammo - 53617
SKU: 53617

51 $29.95
20+ @ $28.95
(price per round $0.60)

revchuck38

10-21-2018, 05:21 AM

Cypher - I think the 50% increase figure refers to HST, which has gone from $20/box to $30/box in some places.

Streicher's still has HST at $22/box, though they're out of 124-grain +P.

scjbash

10-21-2018, 09:46 AM

Bone Frog has HST 124+P for $19.75.

JBP55

10-21-2018, 10:41 AM

The Bone Frog price of 124+P HST delivered to me is $424 per case which is less than I ever paid in the past for this ammunition.

blues

10-21-2018, 10:47 AM

The Bone Frog price of 124+P HST delivered to me is $424 per case which is less than I ever paid in the past for this ammunition.

I've paid sub $400 delivered in the past (elsewhere)...not that that matters today.

Cypher

10-21-2018, 11:17 AM

Cypher - I think the 50% increase figure refers to HST, which has gone from $20/box to $30/box in some places.

Streicher's still has HST at $22/box, though they're out of 124-grain +P.

I was responding to this post

On the 50rd 124+P GDHP,either out of stock, or almost double in price. Strange.

Which referenced exactly the ammunition I had just bought

blues

10-21-2018, 01:57 PM

I've paid sub $400 delivered in the past (elsewhere)...not that that matters today.

This was the only receipt I could easily find at the moment...from massammo.com, April, 2017.

Items Ordered
Subtotal $369.00
Shipping & Handling $12.99
Grand Total $381.99
Federal HST 9mm 147 GRAIN 1000 Round Case- Flat Rate
Shipping
P9HST2CASE $369.00 Ordered: 1 $369.00

revchuck38

10-21-2018, 03:11 PM

I was responding to this post

Which referenced exactly the ammunition I had just bought

Got it.

LtDave

10-22-2018, 11:11 AM

Bone Frog has HST 124+P for $19.75.

The 124 grain bonded stuff (LE9T1) was an even better deal at $17.75/box. now out of stock. Last order a week or two ago required my retired LE ID.

deputyG23

10-22-2018, 01:21 PM

My stock of 135 grain P+ Gold dot .38s is getting low..sounds like ATK is adopting a policy like Winchester with its Ranger line.

deputyG23

10-22-2018, 01:24 PM

For those of us who are "credentialed". Atlantic Tactical is now offering 10% off on Winchester Ranger. $17.06 per 50 for 9mm Ranger-T.

einherjarvalk

10-22-2018, 07:10 PM

revchuck38

10-22-2018, 07:30 PM

I really want to know what ATK is smoking with regards to Speer/Federal defensive loads. We've got more civilian carriers than ever before out there trying to test their carry loads, and their reaction is to spike the price of ammo from $25-30ish per box of 50 HSTs to $25 for a 20 round box by locking everyone without a badge out from the full size boxes?

Absolutely ridiculous.

From a business standpoint, it might work for them. HST and GD are the two most popular choices for LEOs and serious non-LEOs, and I guess they're betting on us non-credentialed heathens to pay double the money for the same ammo.

Unless something happens to change my mind, payday will probably see me ordering a case of GS bonded 124-grain +P. I've run a bunch of HST through my guns and I really like it, but it ain't the only good ammo available.

CCT125US

10-22-2018, 08:52 PM

Cypher

10-22-2018, 10:56 PM

Gewehr3

10-23-2018, 03:15 PM

It would be nice to have more ammunition/firearms companies competing against one another. This whole consolidation trend hasn't done the consumer much good.

CoGT3

10-23-2018, 03:40 PM

I realize that companies have the right to refuse service to anyone but I will not do any business of any kind with a company that decides that my non LEO status makes me asecond-class customer.

Especially at a time that there are other comparable options. For the longest time Federal/Speer where king for their quality control over Winchester. Hornady now has a vetted round in the 135 +P that can challenge the HST/GD. The reason I haven't tried it was cost. If Vista new pricing holds the case I order will be Hornady 135 +P. Don't really want to, it will take the whole case to vet the round in all my usual use/training pistols but I'm not going to reward bad behavior by Vista.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

JBP55

10-23-2018, 04:38 PM

Just went and ran the numbers on my Gold Dot usage for the past 4 years. I apparently have enough for the next 17.5 years at my current rate of consumption. I could probably add a couple of months if I stopped putting down groundhogs and coons.

I am down to about 2500 rounds of 124+P HST and I am in my 70's with health issues so I "May" not have to order any more.

Norville

10-23-2018, 07:06 PM

I picked up 6 boxes from Streicher’s. Combined with a few boxes on hand I am set until 2025 or until we get plasma rifles in the 40 MW range.

As long as I don’t buy any new guns that require reliability testing

perlslacker

10-23-2018, 11:18 PM

Has there been any official word on the reason for the price hike? Is this Vista Outdoor changing their distribution policy?

JBP55

10-24-2018, 12:49 PM

Has there been any official word on the reason for the price hike? Is this Vista Outdoor changing their distribution policy?

Bone Frog just sent an e mail saying them will be a restriction on their 124gr. LEO ammunition as requested with more to come later. Must have credentials to purchase.

scjbash

10-24-2018, 01:14 PM

Someone who talked to a dealer said that they were always supposed to be selling the 50 round boxes as LE only but no one really followed that rule and Vista couldn't track it. Now Vista has a new tracking system so they slapped the dealers on the wrist and told them to start enforcing the LE restriction. It's my understanding the old stock of 50 round boxes are being sold to civvies because they don't have the new tracking codes (or whatever) yet. If that's the case I'm assuming the markup is simply because the dealers are getting what they can out of it while they can.

That's all second hand info and could be partially or entirely incorrect.

El Cid

10-24-2018, 01:37 PM

I really want to know what ATK is smoking with regards to Speer/Federal defensive loads. We've got more civilian carriers than ever before out there trying to test their carry loads, and their reaction is to spike the price of ammo from $25-30ish per box of 50 HSTs to $25 for a 20 round box by locking everyone without a badge out from the full size boxes?

Absolutely ridiculous.

First, you should know that most citizens who carry concealed are not testing their carry ammo. Most just shove them into the mag and head out into the world. The few who do test might run a magazine through the gun. I know it seems like more vet their ammo because here on P-F we are a like-minded crew of shooters. We are not the norm however.

As for pricing... I don't like it either, but it's capitalism. If they raise prices too high and the product doesn't sell, they will adjust downward. It's a free economy and the business of business is profit. Anyone who wants free ammo should get sponsored as a shooter or take an oath and join the blue line.

einherjarvalk

10-24-2018, 01:54 PM

sharps54

10-24-2018, 02:07 PM

Maybe we need a new thread for the best non-restricted carry ammo available in bulk in each caliber for non-LEOs who want to practice with the their carry ammo...

El Cid

10-24-2018, 02:08 PM

"If you want to train with your carry ammo and don't like the idea of the price to do so jumping by nearly 300%, you should join the police."

To be clear, is that what you're saying here? I need to be 100% certain before I mentally log it to bring up next Pfestivus.

I like how you put something you made up into quotes as if attributing it to someone else.

No. I am not saying that. You are misinterpreting my words. You are free not to like the price jump - I don't like the price jump. But I only know of 2 categories of people able to get free ammo. One is LE, the other competitive shooters who are sponsored. So if you want free ammo - those are your choices. Though to be fair, many LE agencies only give a small amount of free ammo for training. I'm one of many I know who buys his own by the case because I want to shoot more than 50 or 100 rounds a month.

Again - for clarity. Ammo makers can charge whatever they want. Customers vote with their wallets. You said they must be smoking something to charge those prices, but time will tell if they went too far. They don't care how many citizens have a CCL. They are a business, not a charity. It's not their responsibility to sell ammo at the price you or anyone else wants.

And even on P-F, most of us don't train regularly with defensive/duty ammo. We buy FMJ ammo that closely approximates the performance. Most manufacturers offer a training load that is the same weight and feel of their duty/defensive loads.

Shawn Dodson

10-24-2018, 02:53 PM

50 rds HST $21.99

https://www.streichers.com/federal-cartridge-9mm-hst-hp-duty-ammunition

WDR

10-24-2018, 03:06 PM

I realize that companies have the right to refuse service to anyone but I will not do any business of any kind with a company that decides that my non LEO status makes me asecond-class customer.

Essentially all of the major ammo manufacturers have this policy in place, enforced or not. Winchester, Federal/Speer/CCI/ATK/Vista, Hornady, and even Remington have policies like this. It sucks, but its the facts. They want to make more profit off the smaller boxes sold to Joe Citizen. I don't blame them for wanting to make a profit, but I don't have to participate in buying 20rd boxes either. When demand slacks off for ammo, and prices are low already, they have to try to make up the profit somewhere and somehow. I don't really trust the boutique ammo makers to hold the same consistency and QC as the big boys... and most of them are also selling ammo in 20/25 round boxes at inflated prices. It frustrates me to see it happening, but it is what it is. You really don't have the option to take your business elsewhere, if they all are doing the same thing.

Bottom line: If you find a good ammo you like that works in you guns, it pays to buy a significant amount to set back for the inevitable hard times, rather than a couple boxes at a time. It also starts making sense to stop chasing the latest greatest gear/gun/caliber/load and focus on shooting fundamentals after finding what works for you.

Duelist

10-24-2018, 03:20 PM

50 rds HST $21.99

https://www.streichers.com/federal-cartridge-9mm-hst-hp-duty-ammunition

Well, they have fewer of them now. Free shipping over $99.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 04:52 PM

M2CattleCo

10-24-2018, 05:53 PM

I'll load up Nato ball before I pay those kinds of prices for what Vista sells.

GyroF-16

10-24-2018, 06:08 PM

This is beyond ridiculous! Your average LE only shoots to qualify once per year,most don't even practice with their duty weapon. I run at LEAST one full 50 round box,limp wristing etc,testing for recoil, feeding etc. I run at least 250 rounds of FMJ in the same weight to test reliability. A policeman is still a civilian,albeit with much more privilege i.e. justifiable homicide. Why should I be punished for wanting to practice, especially since most departments (I'm assuming) buy their officers ammo?

First, let's not turn this into "LE don't shoot much anyway, so why to they get to buy HST... ...or something." I understand frustration at manufacturers marketing policies, but let's try to direct the emotion at the source of the problem, not LE, whether they shoot much or not. BTW, I shoot twice a year for qual, and shoot 6-8k a year for practice (though most of that is certainly not HST). I get issued 200 rds of HST a year for work and practice.

Second, I find the "more profit" theory mentioned recently to be the most plausible source of the recent apparent crackdown on selling 50 rd boxes to "just anyone." I guess Federal, et al, think that they can make more money selling 20 rd boxes of premium ammo to the average shooter, and want to make that more prevalent. I don't like it, and certainly won't support their model with my purchases. But they need to see whether this marketing strategy increases or decreases profits. Only then will they reevaluate.

Third, Shawn Dotson has thoughtfully provided a link where we can get HST for $21.99/box. I've used it to increase my personal reserve. If you want more HST, I'd recommend that you do the same.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 06:21 PM

First, let's not turn this into "LE don't shoot much anyway, so why to they get to buy HST... ...or something." I understand frustration at manufacturers marketing policies, but let's try to direct the emotion at the source of the problem, not LE, whether they shoot much or not. BTW, I shoot twice a year for qual, and shoot 6-8k a year for practice (though most of that is certainly not HST). I get issued 200 rds of HST a year for work and practice.

Second, I find the "more profit" theory mentioned recently to be the most plausible source of the recent apparent crackdown on selling 50 rd boxes to "just anyone." I guess Federal, et al, think that they can make more money selling 20 rd boxes of premium ammo to the average shooter, and want to make that more prevalent. I don't like it, and certainly won't support their model with my purchases. But they need to see whether this marketing strategy increases or decreases profits. Only then will they reevaluate.

Third, Shawn Dotson has thoughtfully provided a link where we can get HST for $21.99/box. I've used it to increase my personal reserve. If you want more HST, I'd recommend that you do the same.

I was more referring to the reduced LE pricing and not shooting much,not necessarily the availability factor. How does it make sense to sell more at a reduced rate to people that shoot less? I would think it would make more profitable sense to have a price increase,while still being available to a broader market share. I shoot about 1500 rounds a year through my Glock 17 and about 2-3,000 a year through my carbine. Are you allowed to supplement your 200 issued duty rounds? To practice different POA/POI at different distances/positions?

witchking777

10-24-2018, 06:23 PM

Shawn Dotson has thoughtfully provided a link where we can get HST for $21.99/box. I've used it to increase my personal reserve. If you want more HST, I'd recommend that you do the same.[/QUOTE]

Thank you to Shawn for that link! That is my plan 🙂

5pins

10-24-2018, 07:22 PM

Got this in an email from Bone Frog today.

Hollow Point Ammunition (LE Restrictions)
50 round boxes of LE marketed ammunition has always been intended for Law Enforcement; 20 round boxes are available for standard retail purchasers. The manufacturers are getting stricter on these guidelines as it pertains to online sales, thus we have been asked to abide by indicating this on these product pages and asking customers to register with us in order to purchase these products. Currently we are required to restrict the purchase of 124 grain products, but eventually we anticipate all 50 round LE boxes will be restricted.

Cypher

10-24-2018, 07:23 PM

FWIW I called Speer this afternoon. The Rep I spoke to said that they had never heard of this policy.

Here are 2 phone numbers I have for Speer

1-800-379-1732
1- 208-750-3128

Maybe if enough people blow up their inbox they'll rethink it

BehindBlueI's

10-24-2018, 08:11 PM

This is beyond ridiculous! Your average LE only shoots to qualify once per year,most don't even practice with their duty weapon. I run at LEAST one full 50 round box,limp wristing etc,testing for recoil, feeding etc. I run at least 250 rounds of FMJ in the same weight to test reliability. A policeman is still a civilian,albeit with much more privilege i.e. justifiable homicide. Why should I be punished for wanting to practice, especially since most departments (I'm assuming) buy their officers ammo?

Police are not civilians, depending on context. Neither are fireman, again depending on context. As far as "justifiable homicide", that's entirely within the civilian's legal authority as well. The set of circumstances when an LEO can shoot someone what the armed citizen cannot is extremely thin and exists primarily in the realm of the hypothetical. In my state, I can shoot to affect an arrest when doing so is necessary to stop an imminent threat to the community. Armed citizens can shoot to protect a 3rd party. I've been doing this awhile and seen a lot of LE and a lot of citizen shoots and can't think of a single time when the first would be justified and the second wouldn't.

If you want to compare averages, though, your "average" gun owner shoots how much, exactly?

You do, however, answer your own question. Why do LE get "specials"? Because departments do buy ammo. A lot of it. On multi-year contracts. My department needs 800k+ rounds a year of just practice handgun ammo. Then carry ammo. And for rifles. And for shotguns. The more "LE friendly" someone is, the more inroads they make, the more of those juicy contacts they get. That was the backbone of the marketing campaign that made Glock into Glock. Businesses tend to notice that sort of thing, and copy a winning strategy. LE and .mil gets special deals because of contract considerations and because of marketing considerations. Having cops and soldiers carrying your stuff moves civilians toward your stuff, too. Guns, ammo, or sunglasses. Doesn't matter.

ssb

10-24-2018, 08:31 PM

Is there any solid word on what the policy is regarding non-LE sales? I *think* I can squeak by with my magic powers, but it's still a concern. I can stomach a modest price change. Locking non-sworn into $1/round 124-grain standard pressure (IIRC, the only HST "commercial" 9mm load) is another matter entirely.

Spartan1980

10-24-2018, 08:37 PM

It's utterly ridiculous that I can buy 50 round LE boxes of Gold Dot .357Sig @ $0.3998 per round and have to pay $1.00+ per for the same weight bullet in 9mm. A caliber that outsells probably 100 times over the .357 every month, I might add. What the hell is their marketing team thinking?

I'm going to buy another case of the Sig and 1000 147 grain Gold Dot bullets to handload. There's more than one way to skin this cat. 'Eff them.:cool:

einherjarvalk

10-24-2018, 09:13 PM

You do, however, answer your own question. Why do LE get "specials"? Because departments do buy ammo. A lot of it. On multi-year contracts. My department needs 800k+ rounds a year of just practice handgun ammo. Then carry ammo. And for rifles. And for shotguns. The more "LE friendly" someone is, the more inroads they make, the more of those juicy contacts they get. That was the backbone of the marketing campaign that made Glock into Glock. Businesses tend to notice that sort of thing, and copy a winning strategy. LE and .mil gets special deals because of contract considerations and because of marketing considerations. Having cops and soldiers carrying your stuff moves civilians toward your stuff, too. Guns, ammo, or sunglasses. Doesn't matter.

This is where the confusion exists for me. Police departments buy HST/GD by the hundreds of thousands. That ammo is packed into standard 50 round boxes and is (to my understanding) packaged with the HST/Gold Dot box designs we're all familiar with. They are buying in bulk and they should get a discount for doing so. I get that.

What bothers me, however, is that at some point in the supply chain, ATK decided that they needed to spin up a whole new packaging process that uses 20 round boxes instead of 50 round boxes, and as of late, has ditched cardboard boxes entirely for hard clear plastic cases of a sort that I'm more used to seeing RPG dice sets or baseball cards in. How much time and effort went into thinking up the packaging split and establishing the logistics chains for the boxes? How much does it cost ATK to separate the packaging lines, buy the hard plastic 20 round boxes for HSTs, create a modified box art for them, and inventory these packages separately from LE 50 round boxes as an entirely new SKU? I doubt it's a ton of money, but at some point that cost is getting passed onto us, the commercial market, rather than just doing the same packaging they already have for the LE line and offering special pricing to LE customers and distributors.

I don't think any of us would mind paying a little more for quality ammo. I went to GT Distributors yesterday to buy 100 rounds of HSTs just in case this hits their retail store too (from what I was told, there's no plans for that to happen), and at some point it was mentioned that the $19.99/50 I paid for 147 grain HSTs is close to "at cost" pricing. Whether or not that's true, I'm not sure. If it is, I absolutely don't mind the idea of ATK having a "blue label" pricing program so that LEOs can procure duty ammo at a severe discount, and paying 40-50% more per box for it as a civilian ($30/50 was perfectly reasonable to me in 2010 for Gold Dots). However, I draw the line at the manufacturer telling me I have to pay extra for a hard plastic box because somehow, only active law enforcement can be trusted with buying the same ammo in a cardboard box, and then marking it up by 300%.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 09:45 PM

This is where the confusion exists for me. Police departments buy HST/GD by the hundreds of thousands. That ammo is packed into standard 50 round boxes and is (to my understanding) packaged with the HST/Gold Dot box designs we're all familiar with. They are buying in bulk and they should get a discount for doing so. I get that.

What bothers me, however, is that at some point in the supply chain, ATK decided that they needed to spin up a whole new packaging process that uses 20 round boxes instead of 50 round boxes, and as of late, has ditched cardboard boxes entirely for hard clear plastic cases of a sort that I'm more used to seeing RPG dice sets or baseball cards in. How much time and effort went into thinking up the packaging split and establishing the logistics chains for the boxes? How much does it cost ATK to separate the packaging lines, buy the hard plastic 20 round boxes for HSTs, create a modified box art for them, and inventory these packages separately from LE 50 round boxes as an entirely new SKU? I doubt it's a ton of money, but at some point that cost is getting passed onto us, the commercial market, rather than just doing the same packaging they already have for the LE line and offering special pricing to LE customers and distributors.

I don't think any of us would mind paying a little more for quality ammo. I went to GT Distributors yesterday to buy 100 rounds of HSTs just in case this hits their retail store too (from what I was told, there's no plans for that to happen), and at some point it was mentioned that the $19.99/50 I paid for 147 grain HSTs is close to "at cost" pricing. Whether or not that's true, I'm not sure. If it is, I absolutely don't mind the idea of ATK having a "blue label" pricing program so that LEOs can procure duty ammo at a severe discount, and paying 40-50% more per box for it as a civilian ($30/50 was perfectly reasonable to me in 2010 for Gold Dots). However, I draw the line at the manufacturer telling me I have to pay extra for a hard plastic box because somehow, only active law enforcement can be trusted with buying the same ammo in a cardboard box, and then marking it up by 300%.

My thoughts exactly. I have family in law enforcement as well.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 09:49 PM

Police are not civilians, depending on context. Neither are fireman, again depending on context. As far as "justifiable homicide", that's entirely within the civilian's legal authority as well. The set of circumstances when an LEO can shoot someone what the armed citizen cannot is extremely thin and exists primarily in the realm of the hypothetical. In my state, I can shoot to affect an arrest when doing so is necessary to stop an imminent threat to the community. Armed citizens can shoot to protect a 3rd party. I've been doing this awhile and seen a lot of LE and a lot of citizen shoots and can't think of a single time when the first would be justified and the second wouldn't.

If you want to compare averages, though, your "average" gun owner shoots how much, exactly?

You do, however, answer your own question. Why do LE get "specials"? Because departments do buy ammo. A lot of it. On multi-year contracts. My department needs 800k+ rounds a year of just practice handgun ammo. Then carry ammo. And for rifles. And for shotguns. The more "LE friendly" someone is, the more inroads they make, the more of those juicy contacts they get. That was the backbone of the marketing campaign that made Glock into Glock. Businesses tend to notice that sort of thing, and copy a winning strategy. LE and .mil gets special deals because of contract considerations and because of marketing considerations. Having cops and soldiers carrying your stuff moves civilians toward your stuff, too. Guns, ammo, or sunglasses. Doesn't matter.

I've read both sides of the argument as to whether LE is civilian or not,according to my military friends they are,according to family they are not. You must work for a large department and I'm glad they supply you with ammo to practice with. My problem is with the "Only for me,not for thee" mentality that seems to pervade our current 2nd Amendment issues.

blues

10-24-2018, 09:59 PM

My problem is with the "Only for me,not for thee" mentality that seems to pervade our current 2nd Amendment issues.

I'm sorry...I'm gonna call B.S. on that statement. This board is filled with current and former LEOs who have done nothing but stand up for and support the 2A and concealed carry issues on behalf of all...not just LEOs.

The only ones being divisive here appear to be a couple of folks who'd rather blame LEOs who have absolutely nothing to do with how Speer conducts its business.

Cypher

10-24-2018, 10:19 PM

Police are not civilians, depending on context. Neither are fireman, again depending on context. As far as "justifiable homicide", that's entirely within the civilian's legal authority as well. The set of circumstances when an LEO can shoot someone what the armed citizen cannot is extremely thin and exists primarily in the realm of the hypothetical. In my state, I can shoot to affect an arrest when doing so is necessary to stop an imminent threat to the community. Armed citizens can shoot to protect a 3rd party. I've been doing this awhile and seen a lot of LE and a lot of citizen shoots and can't think of a single time when the first would be justified and the second wouldn't.

If you want to compare averages, though, your "average" gun owner shoots how much, exactly?

You do, however, answer your own question. Why do LE get "specials"? Because departments do buy ammo. A lot of it. On multi-year contracts. My department needs 800k+ rounds a year of just practice handgun ammo. Then carry ammo. And for rifles. And for shotguns. The more "LE friendly" someone is, the more inroads they make, the more of those juicy contacts they get. That was the backbone of the marketing campaign that made Glock into Glock. Businesses tend to notice that sort of thing, and copy a winning strategy. LE and .mil gets special deals because of contract considerations and because of marketing considerations. Having cops and soldiers carrying your stuff moves civilians toward your stuff, too. Guns, ammo, or sunglasses. Doesn't matter.

I understand what you're saying and maybe I haven't been reading right up to this point but my understanding is it isn't a question of law enforcement getting special deals. The way I understand what's been said so far in this thread is it I as a private citizen will never be able to buy Speer 124 grain LE Gold Dots again, at any price.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 10:21 PM

I'm sorry...I'm gonna call B.S. on that statement. This board is filled with current and former LEOs who have done nothing but stand up for and support the 2A and concealed carry issues on behalf of all...not just LEOs.

The only ones being divisive here appear to be a couple of folks who'd rather blame LEOs who have absolutely nothing to do with how Speer conducts its business.

Not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to police in states having standard capacity magazines while civilians can only have 10,15,or 20. Being able to carry in all 50 states without restrictions,etc. In no way am I blaming law enforcement for this. I think Vista has adopted an asinine policy. That's all. As stated before I have family in EMS and in law enforcement, which I support whole heartedly.

blues

10-24-2018, 10:29 PM

Not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to police in states having standard capacity magazines while civilians can only have 10,15,or 20. Being able to carry in all 50 states without restrictions,etc. In no way am I blaming law enforcement for this. I think Vista has adopted an asinine policy. That's all. As stated before I have family in EMS and in law enforcement, which I support whole heartedly.

Well, again, you would be incorrect with some of your assumptions.

Law enforcement officers, (active or retired), are subject to the vagary of laws of states outside of their jurisdiction in most cases.

In NYC, for example, I can only carry a 10 round magazine. Had I retired while still working in NY, I could carry 15 round magazines. (The same restriction applies to active LEOs who come from out of state.)

In NJ, the state police (wrongly) attempt to prevent other LEOs visiting their state from carrying hollow point ammo.

Such restrictions can be found in a number of states throughout the nation.

LEOs, (active and retired), are not granted carte blanche and are subject to a variety of restrictions in regard to their ability to carry in the fifty states.

einherjarvalk

10-24-2018, 10:34 PM

I understand what you're saying and maybe I haven't been reading right up to this point but my understanding is it isn't a question of law enforcement getting special deals. The way I understand what's been said so far in this thread is it I as a private citizen will never be able to buy Speer 124 grain LE Gold Dots again, at any price.

That's not quite it. What's being said right now is that you won't be able to buy the "LE box" (i.e., 50 rounds in the box, like any other off-the-shelf ammo box) and would instead be relegated to buying them in 20 round commercial boxes that are often severely marked up.

The ammo is the same, but the box quantity and pricing is wildly different. That's what has people riled up. If 20 round boxes of HST were $0.40 per round, I'd grumble about it but wouldn't have a problem. If 50 round boxes were $30, that'd be reasonable to me too. $25 for 20 rounds? Nope.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 10:40 PM

Well, again, you would be incorrect with some of your assumptions.

Law enforcement officers, (active or retired), are subject to the vagary of laws of states outside of their jurisdiction in most cases.

In NYC, for example, I can only carry a 10 round magazine. Had I retired while still working in NY, I could carry 15 round magazines. (The same restriction applies to active LEOs who come from out of state.)

In NJ, the state police (wrongly) attempt to prevent other LEOs visiting their state from carrying hollow point ammo.

Such restrictions can be found in a number of states throughout the nation.

LEOs, (active and retired), are not granted carte blanche and are subject to a variety of restrictions in regard to their ability to carry in the fifty states.

It seems I have been fed some incorrect information, thank you for setting me straight.

blues

10-24-2018, 10:46 PM

It seems I have been fed some incorrect information, thank you for setting me straight.

You're more than welcome. And thanks for taking my comments in stride.

witchking777

10-24-2018, 10:52 PM

You're more than welcome. And thanks for taking my comments in stride.

You're welcome as well,thank you for wearing the badge,stay safe out there.

fly out

10-24-2018, 10:59 PM

That's not quite it. What's being said right now is that you won't be able to buy the "LE box" (i.e., 50 rounds in the box, like any other off-the-shelf ammo box) and would instead be relegated to buying them in 20 round commercial boxes that are often severely marked up.

The ammo is the same, but the box quantity and pricing is wildly different. That's what has people riled up. If 20 round boxes of HST were $0.40 per round, I'd grumble about it but wouldn't have a problem. If 50 round boxes were $30, that'd be reasonable to me too. $25 for 20 rounds? Nope.

HST 147 +P? There are offerings that don't appear in the engagement-ring boxes. (As far as I know.)

DiscipulusArmorum

10-24-2018, 11:13 PM

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves or blaming individual LEOs who have no say in this, we need to make our thoughts known to the corporate bureaucrats at Vista (Federal/CCI Speer parent co.) who made this decision, or at least try and find out what exactly the new policy is going to be since there appears to be conflicting info.

Here's some relevant contact info:

Vista Outdoor Corporate HQ (https://vistaoutdoor.com/contact-us/) (Contact form on page, phone number is 801-447-3000)

Vista Outdoor Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/VistaOutdoor/)

Vista Outdoor Twitter (https://twitter.com/VistaOutdoorInc)

The Vista Outdoor LE (http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/contact/default.aspx)division tries to route you through their distributors, but they do list this email for international LE/Mil sales: tactical.ammo@vistaoutdoor.com

Speer Ammo Contact Form (https://www.speer-ammo.com/customer-support/contact-us) (phone number is 800-379-1732)

Cypher

10-24-2018, 11:24 PM

DiscipulusArmorum

10-24-2018, 11:30 PM

I just went and checked SGAmmo's website. They haven't made any announcement but when you search "124 grain GDHP" all you get is personal protection rounds in 20/200/500 round boxes. There are no 50 round LE boxes even listed

Still available, but at a possibly higher cost than the recent past (I can't say for sure since I haven't checked Gold Dot prices in awhile):

https://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-speer-gold-dot-124-grain-le-hollow-point-ammo-53617

DiscipulusArmorum

10-25-2018, 12:34 AM

^Annnnddd it's now gone. They had 32 boxes when I posted that and sold out not long after. Gold Dot 124+P sold out today at both SGA and Bone Frog Gun Club.

Cypher

10-25-2018, 02:08 AM

Still available, but at a possibly higher cost than the recent past (I can't say for sure since I haven't checked Gold Dot prices in awhile):

https://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-speer-gold-dot-124-grain-le-hollow-point-ammo-53617

Okay I don't know what you did but when I followed your link I got an access denied message.

So I went to the search bar and I specifically typed in "Speer 124 grain LE gdhp" and the result I got was " no results match your search"

Before I made the post you quoted I searched "Speer 124 grain gdhp" which is exactly the search terms I used Sunday night when I bought 4 50 round boxes of 124 grain LE Gold Dots and all the results I got were for 124 grain personal protection rounds there wasn't even LE rounds on the list.

Having said all that, I posted a thread here a couple days ago asking what the difference was between personal protection rounds and LE rounds and I was told that there was no significant difference. So since the personal protection rounds are $0.10 around cheaper then the LE rounds (or they were on Sunday) I'll just go ahead and buy the personal protection rounds in the 500 round case

David C.

10-25-2018, 02:56 AM

I have made it a point when buying practice ammo to buy American and to support CCI/Speer/Federal. I largely pass on Winchester and Remington because of their recent lack of quality control.

I suppose I will pay the new higher price for HST in 20 rd boxes when I have to but will I start buying Magtech/CBC/S&B/MEN (and maybe Fiocchi and Aquila) practice ammo.

I will buy Rio shotshells instead of Federal for hunting and for clays.

BehindBlueI's

10-25-2018, 07:36 AM

I've read both sides of the argument as to whether LE is civilian or not,according to my military friends they are,according to family they are not. You must work for a large department and I'm glad they supply you with ammo to practice with. My problem is with the "Only for me,not for thee" mentality that seems to pervade our current 2nd Amendment issues.

They are both right reference "civilian". That's why I said "depending on context". Even Webster knows: : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force. On a military base, I'm "civilian law enforcement" and that's correct for the context, but where do you hear that phrase otherwise?

The 2nd amendment protects you from gov't restrictions. It doesn't protect you from the whims of the individual or private business. Blues has already covered the rest.

The way I understand what's been said so far in this thread is it I as a private citizen will never be able to buy Speer 124 grain LE Gold Dots again, at any price.

Is the below quote not a reference to Speer not being the one behind that decision, meaning other retailers can decide differently, or did I miss an update somewhere in the thread?

FWIW I called Speer this afternoon. The Rep I spoke to said that they had never heard of this policy.

Here are 2 phone numbers I have for Speer

1-800-379-1732
1- 208-750-3128

Maybe if enough people blow up their inbox they'll rethink it

Cypher

10-25-2018, 09:24 AM

Is the below quote not a reference to Speer not being the one behind that decision, meaning other retailers can decide differently, or did I miss an update somewhere in the thread?

I don't know. The OP specified HST and Speer Gold Dots

I noticed today that Bone Frog Gun Club will no longer sell 50 round boxes of HST or GD to civilians...kind of....if you fill out a form, you apply to be a “qualified customer”, and if approved, a non-LEO can purchase it. Is his some kind of screen process?

The one person I spoke to at Speer (who is probably pretty low on their food chain) didn't know anything about it but that doesn't mean it's not company policy. That's why I'd like to see an official statement from the company not the retailer.

Maybe this is a repeat of the Toilet Paper shortage of 1973

https://youtu.be/IqMleWYgo3s

El Cid

10-25-2018, 09:32 AM

I don't know. The OP specified HST and Speer Gold Dots

The one person I spoke to at Speer (who is probably pretty low on their food chain) didn't know anything about it but that doesn't mean it's not company policy. That's why I'd like to see an official statement from the company not the retailer.

I've seen 50rd boxes from Hornady that have "LE use only" printed on them recently. I'd have to go find an old Speer box - can't recall what if anything was on them.

Cypher

10-25-2018, 09:44 AM

I've seen 50rd boxes from Hornady that have "LE use only" printed on them recently. I'd have to go find an old Speer box - can't recall what if anything was on them.

https://i.postimg.cc/JtCBgjbX/20181025-084113.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1VMtVn7R)

CCT125US

10-25-2018, 10:02 AM

It would be interesting to see the sales figures for 50rd boxes outside of departmemt contracts. I would think it to be a rather small percentage. Most retail stores around here don't even sell them, just the overpriced 20/25rd offerings. Most shooters won't even notice the change, let alone care. Unfortunately if you do notice and care, there is little you can do about it.

GMSweet

10-25-2018, 10:44 AM

I've never seen the 50 rounders locally.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/c1a14cfb7d474406ac89dcc414fc6b6f.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

BehindBlueI's

10-25-2018, 11:22 AM

I've only seen 50rd boxes at "official" cop-shops (uniform shops that sell firearms and other equipment as well) and the "regular" gun shops owned by LE/retired LE in the area. I tend to buy all my ammo online anyway, but I did need a box of .38+P in a hurry and got a 50 rd box at the retired LE shop.

DiscipulusArmorum

10-25-2018, 11:35 AM

Here's the reply I got from Vista Outdoors' Facebook page when I sent a message asking about any changes in policy: "Thank you for taking the time to message us to get clarification. We are not restricting sales of HST ammunition to anyone. We simply limit certain packaging configurations to a class of trade. All dealers have access to HST ammo."

Someone else on another forum received the same message, and we've both replied to get some further clarification.

I have made it a point when buying practice ammo to buy American and to support CCI/Speer/Federal. I largely pass on Winchester and Remington because of their recent lack of quality control.

I suppose I will pay the new higher price for HST in 20 rd boxes when I have to but will I start buying Magtech/CBC/S&B/MEN (and maybe Fiocchi and Aquila) practice ammo.

I will buy Rio shotshells instead of Federal for hunting and for clays.

I'm with you on switching to other suppliers for practice ammo, but I won't pay the ridiculous prices for the 20rd boxes. The cheapest 20rd boxes I could find from reputable retailers were $18.53 for 124gr standard pressure from Bud's and $18.99 for 147gr standard pressure from TargetSportsUSA. No way I'm paying nearly a dollar a round for non-bonded 9mm. At those prices, Barnes Tac-XPD becomes competitive. I believe DocGKR has said it's an exceptional performer, and it did very well IIRC in ShootingTheBull410's "ammo quest" where he tested many different rounds out of short barrels into FBI/IWBA spec calibrated gel.

I've got a pretty good supply of HST, but if I have to switch, I'll try Critical Duty (possibly LE restricted "officially" but not currently being enforced it seems) or Golden Saber.

Okay I don't know what you did but when I followed your link I got an access denied message.

So I went to the search bar and I specifically typed in "Speer 124 grain LE gdhp" and the result I got was " no results match your search"

Before I made the post you quoted I searched "Speer 124 grain gdhp" which is exactly the search terms I used Sunday night when I bought 4 50 round boxes of 124 grain LE Gold Dots and all the results I got were for 124 grain personal protection rounds there wasn't even LE rounds on the list.

[snipped]

Yeah, the page changed to "Access Denied" after it sold out. No idea about the search since I usually just go to the caliber page I want and do Ctrl+F, which is what I did to find the 124+P.

LorenzoS

10-25-2018, 01:25 PM

DiscipulusArmorum

10-25-2018, 01:44 PM

Before we sharpen our pitchforks and light the torches, are we sure this is a policy change and not just a blip in supply?

If it really is a policy then I've bought my last round of American Eagle or Lawman.

So far, the official party line from Vista is that "we are not restricting sales of HST ammunition to anyone. We simply limit certain packaging configurations to a class of trade. All dealers have access to HST ammo." Sounds like customer service speak for 50rd boxes will be LE only, but we're waiting for clarification.

I don't think is necessarily a new policy per se, just that it's now going to be enforced more strictly than it was before. For Bone Frog, who has sold plenty of ammo that's "restricted" at other retailers (thinking specifically of Hornady TAP LE rifle ammo in the red boxes), to implement this change and start asking for a form with pics of LE creds makes me think Vista has put the screws on pretty hard at the distributor level.

FWIW, here's a post on ARF (https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-hst-vista-says-no-more-selling-50-rd-boxes-to-lowlife-civilians/5-2158736/?r=-1&page=2&anc=75213717#i75213509) (I know, I know) that seems very plausible:

Guys.

The 50 round boxes CAN be sold to civilians but not at the discounted rate without the LE creds, this LE price was the price they were able to sell before without the creds.

Vista finally figured out a better product tracking instrument and are starting to hold dealers accountable. Most dealers will now simply not sell any 50's to the civvy population.

This is similar to the blue label discounts.

And just because you found an obscure or large ammo distributor that still has 50 round boxes for sale, only means that they still have the old tracked product with the old SKU's... aka can be sold to anyone at this moment. Some dealers who do have them in have them for a higher price ratio like the 20's and providing LE cred will get you lower pricing.

(Forgive me if crossposting from another forum isn't allowed)

Hambo

10-25-2018, 01:47 PM

Cypher

10-25-2018, 03:54 PM

I've never seen the 50 rounders locally.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/c1a14cfb7d474406ac89dcc414fc6b6f.jpg

I buy all mine online

JAD

10-25-2018, 04:12 PM

Why did this happen? Capitalism. Federal figured out that they can sell 20 for $25 or 50 for $20. What do you think they're going to do?

What to do now? Well, since I'm not in the department supply chain, which wasn't as generous as Santa Claus and probably wouldn't have bought me HST anyway, I have a couple of choices. I can pay top dollar for ammo I don't shoot often, so that's not really a big deal. I can look at Doc's list and buy a cheaper alternative. I could say fuck it, and buy '90s designs (XTP, 9BP, 9BPLE) which we actually used to good effect. Or I could panic and race around trying to grab up ammo like it's the end of the world.

This. If a business raises their prices (which is all that's effectively happened; they aren't restricting the sale of ammo to LE, they're restricting 50 vs 20 round boxes and thus effectively increasing what I'm forced to pay) you have the option of pursuing their competition. Getting mad at them seems like a waste of energy.

gruntjim

10-25-2018, 04:45 PM

It appears bonefrog deleted my account, as it no longer appears.

If I can't get quality 9mm ammo, I can always revert to .45.

But I do have local sources for Black Belt and Crit Duty.

El Cid

10-25-2018, 05:20 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/JtCBgjbX/20181025-084113.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1VMtVn7R)

That isn't what I was thinking of. That is like many who advertise their ammo as "Law Enforcement" or LE Duty ammo. It implies to me at least that it's passed agency tests and been deemed worthy. I see that as marketing.

I meant that some boxes say "Law Enforcement Only" like this one. What's shown below to me is restrictive more than it is marketing.

https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/20353-DEFAULT-l.jpg

CCT125US

10-25-2018, 05:31 PM

That isn't what I was thinking of. That is like many who advertise their ammo as "Law Enforcement" or LE Duty ammo. It implies to me at least that it's passed agency tests and been deemed worthy. I see that as marketing.

I meant that some boxes say "Law Enforcement Only" like this one. What's shown below to me is restrictive more than it is marketing.

https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/20353-DEFAULT-l.jpg

And this is where a fine distinction is made. Just went and checked Bone Frog again. 53617 says "Available for purchase by LE and Qualified Customers", where the 53618 says "Per manufacturer requirements, this product is available for purchase by LE and Qualified Customers Only". To me, that is a very different statement. Personally speaking, having "only" printed on the box would be a point to consider.

Cypher

10-25-2018, 05:34 PM

That isn't what I was thinking of. That is like many who advertise their ammo as "Law Enforcement" or LE Duty ammo. It implies to me at least that it's passed agency tests and been deemed worthy. I see that as marketing.

I meant that some boxes say "Law Enforcement Only" like this one. What's shown below to me is restrictive more than it is marketing.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you said.

I've seen 50rd boxes from Hornady that have "LE use only" printed on them recently. I'd have to go find an old Speer box - can't recall what if anything was on them.

You said you didn't remember what was on the Speer box so I posted a picture of one.

Unless I am mistaken the box in my picture is what Speer markets specifically to LE

El Cid

10-25-2018, 05:46 PM

Perhaps I misunderstood what you said.

You said you didn't remember what was on the Speer box so I posted a picture of one.

Unless I am mistaken the box in my picture is what Speer markets specifically to LE

No, you were right. I couldn't recall and I appreciate the pic. But I view the Speer box as marketing where as the Hornady looks like a restriction.

In the end we just need to vote with our wallets. The ammo makers can set whatever policy they want. Until they feel it hit them in loss of sales, they aren't going to pay it any attention at all.

Spartan1980

10-25-2018, 06:21 PM

I meant that some boxes say "Law Enforcement Only" like this one. What's shown below to me is restrictive more than it is marketing.

I don't know what the current policy is with Hornady, but back during the ammo drought the largest retailer in my state, who was big enough, to purchase direct, had a good supply of 9mm +P CD in that 50 round package and that's all the 9mm of any kind I could find ANYWHERE online included. They said that Hornady required them to see a CLEET card or similar to anyone who purchased or they would get dropped from being able to sell it at all. So I go home and call my trooper friend and ask him to buy me a box or two. Met him up there to pick it up and he had stopped by on his way home from work, in his cruiser, in full uniform, and being a regular there that most everyone knew even out of uniform. He had to show his card. :mad:

Like I said, I don't know if the policy is still in place or not, but it looks like that's the way the wind is blowing.

JBhunter45

10-26-2018, 07:01 AM

scjbash

10-26-2018, 09:54 AM

I do think the $20ish price for 9mm HST and Gold Dots has been a more recent thing. I looked at some receipts and that's what I've paid the last couple years starting with a Christmas sale Bone Frog had in 2016 (2017 Christmas sale was $18). In March 2016 I paid $28 a box. I found a receipt from 2013 and it was $32.

I also found some old .45 receipts. January 2008 I paid $25 for HST. February 2009 it was $29. SG has it for $31 now.

Will_H

10-26-2018, 11:48 AM

Possible price and supply correction?

I only remember the $20/box price in the last year or so. Possible that ATK pushed the old skus to dealers to clear inventory?

For reference my previous order from SG Ammo on 3/4/16 $26/$27 a box for HST/GD. With limits of 6 boxes.
The same Gold Dot 124+P was $28/box on a 7/18/13.

Price only seems to be a part of the issue. Non-credentialed civilians aren't allowed to purchase the 50 round boxes any more, per Vista, based on their new SKUs and ability to track them. If I were an LEO, I would begrudgingly pay $30/box for the same ammo (36% price hike), but as a regular nobody, I'm now limited to the 20 rd plastic boxes at $25 ea, which is a 200%-285% price jump vs the 50 round boxes, and it makes it more annoying to buy in bulk due to wasteful, goofy packaging.

blues

10-26-2018, 11:58 AM

Price only seems to be a part of the issue. Non-credentialed civilians aren't allowed to purchase the 50 round boxes any more, per Vista, based on their new SKUs and ability to track them. If I were an LEO, I would begrudgingly pay $30/box for the same ammo (36% price hike), but as a regular nobody, I'm now limited to the 20 rd plastic boxes at $25 ea, which is a 200%-285% price jump vs the 50 round boxes, and it makes it more annoying to buy in bulk due to wasteful, goofy packaging.

I don't intend to pay it, begrudgingly or otherwise, if there are less expensive viable alternatives on Doc's list when my current supply runs low.

If enough of us go elsewhere the message will have been sent and the ball will be in their court. Whether it has an impact or not is anyone's guess.

Sauer Koch

10-26-2018, 03:43 PM

Yeah, we got spoiled with the prices on the 50r boxes of HST/GD, especially in the context of creating a little stash. These 20r boxes are a joke...:mad:

CCT125US

10-26-2018, 03:56 PM

I wonder if LEO pricing will fall once the new SKU tracking goes into effect? Blow out existing stock and set pricing at $25/20rds for non LEO, and $25/50rds for those with credentials?

blues

10-26-2018, 04:42 PM

I wonder if LEO pricing will fall once the new SKU tracking goes into effect? Blow out existing stock and set pricing at $25/20rds for non LEO, and $25/50rds for those with credentials?

I don't believe that will happen. At least not to that extent. I think LE may get preferential pricing but with a smaller margin of difference at the bottom line.

scjbash

10-26-2018, 07:19 PM

Bone Frog has 147gr Gold Dots back in stock for $22. No LE requirement.

jd950

10-26-2018, 07:20 PM

If you are LEO or even just registered on their site, bone frog has 147 HST at $19.75. At least they had stock a little earlier today.

Spartan1980

10-26-2018, 08:01 PM

I still think this is mostly marketing but I wonder if this isn't a way to further cave into the leftists demands. Vista was looking to sell Stevens and Savage awhile back because of a school shooting. Is this something they can throw up to the gun grabbers to show them they are "on board"?

As far as I'm concerned right now they can shove those 20 round boutique packs right up their ass. I'm even forgoing my AE9FP.

Norville

10-26-2018, 09:08 PM

Somewhere earlier in this thread I posted the capitalist angle. The price of practice ammo has been dropping steadily, profits have to come from somewhere.

CCT125US

10-26-2018, 09:19 PM

Norville

10-26-2018, 09:23 PM

Streichers has 147 HST for $21.99. Use code “comeback” for 10% off and free shipping through Sunday.

Duelist

10-26-2018, 09:36 PM

How many folks have calculated the economic impact based on historical usage? Fortunately, my pre cost spike order arrived today. So mine is zero...actually less than zero, as I paid a bit more for my on hand stock.

Haven’t calculated it. But it does kind of make me wish I was exclusively carrying a revolver again. In about 1998-1999, I bought a S&W 4” Model 10 and two 50 rd boxes of Speer Gold Dots, 125gr standard pressure. IIRC, I paid about $12/box, and I fired the last five of them this spring through a 642. Revolver rounds don’t seem to get nearly as beat up as fast as semiauto rounds do. I carried some of those cartridges until the nickel was almost completely worn off the case head.

I have a small stash of 9mm Gold Dots left, have used up some boxes of it, and switched to HST last year because it was a few bucks less per box of 50. I just bought 5 boxes of 147gr 9mm HST at because I don’t feel like being at the mercy of the market. I will probably be set for a good while with that much added to my small stash.

If I hadn’t been able to find any HST or Gold Dots at a price I could tolerate, I’d have probably eventually have said “f it”, and bought a case of 9BP at like $13/50. I know it’s older tech, but I’ve also shot it through some heavy range cow bones without any troubles, and really, whatever I carry in my G26 probably doesn’t matter nearly as much as that I carry whenever I can. Heck, today, when I carried, it was my G42. Hornady XTP in the gun, Winchester flat nose ball in the spare.

perlslacker

10-27-2018, 10:05 AM

Streichers has 147 HST for $21.99. Use code “comeback” for 10% off and free shipping through Sunday.

ordered.

even if this whole thing turns out to be a nothing-burger, it's a good price and I'd like a buffer since there's an election coming up.

Norville

10-27-2018, 10:25 AM

ordered.

even if this whole thing turns out to be a nothing-burger, it's a good price and I'd like a buffer since there's an election coming up.

I just noticed they added the “For sale to LE only” disclaimer which they did not have earlier. I ordered yesterday. They authorized my CC but didn’t charge the full amount. We’ll see what happens.

I have enough on hand for a while if I don’t get the order.

peterb

10-27-2018, 01:06 PM

Does the restriction apply to full cases, or just individual 50-round boxes?

El Cid

10-27-2018, 01:41 PM

I can’t recall when I purchased this - most likely early 2000’s. Found it while reorganizing today. No mention of LE on it and the price is visible.

https://i.imgur.com/gJzO2s6_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/pCduG6v_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

perlslacker

10-27-2018, 05:37 PM

I just noticed they added the “For sale to LE only” disclaimer which they did not have earlier. I ordered yesterday. They authorized my CC but didn’t charge the full amount. We’ll see what happens.

I have enough on hand for a while if I don’t get the order.

I have a fair bit too, but it'll be nice to have the extra boxes. We'll see how this shakes out.

RevolverRob

10-27-2018, 10:12 PM

I haven't bought a 50-round box of 9mm HST for less than 25 bucks, ever. Most of the time it's 25-30 bucks.

As long as I can get 50-round boxes, I'll be happy.

SiriusBlunder

10-28-2018, 07:54 PM

Found this while pricing some practice ammo.

It's RA9B which is on DocGKR's list.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winchester-ranger-9mm-luger-ammo-147-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point-ra9b-p-3650.aspx

$21.99/box of 50

From the comments by a Customer Service Rep: "This was a one time run by Winchester using brass casing instead of Nickel Plated Brass"

ArgentFix

10-29-2018, 12:49 PM

Streicher's did just ship my order of 147gr HSTs which I placed on Saturday. It didn't ask for credentials. Thanks, Norville, for the coupon code. That brought it to just under $20/50 shipped. Not bad.

CCT125US

10-29-2018, 01:13 PM

perlslacker

10-29-2018, 03:09 PM

Norville

10-29-2018, 03:18 PM

Yes, thanks Norville

Streicher's did just ship my order of 147gr HSTs which I placed on Saturday. It didn't ask for credentials. Thanks, Norville, for the coupon code. That brought it to just under $20/50 shipped. Not bad.

same

Mine shipped as well. Glad I could help!

Gater

10-29-2018, 05:13 PM

Streichers order delivered today. Thanks to Norville, Shawn Dodson, and Duelist!

mtnbkr

10-29-2018, 07:21 PM

deputyG23

10-30-2018, 08:16 AM

Haven’t calculated it. But it does kind of make me wish I was exclusively carrying a revolver again. In about 1998-1999, I bought a S&W 4” Model 10 and two 50 rd boxes of Speer Gold Dots, 125gr standard pressure. IIRC, I paid about $12/box, and I fired the last five of them this spring through a 642. Revolver rounds don’t seem to get nearly as beat up as fast as semiauto rounds do. I carried some of those cartridges until the nickel was almost completely worn off the case head.

I have a small stash of 9mm Gold Dots left, have used up some boxes of it, and switched to HST last year because it was a few bucks less per box of 50. I just bought 5 boxes of 147gr 9mm HST at because I don’t feel like being at the mercy of the market. I will probably be set for a good while with that much added to my small stash.

If I hadn’t been able to find any HST or Gold Dots at a price I could tolerate, I’d have probably eventually have said “f it”, and bought a case of 9BP at like $13/50. I know it’s older tech, but I’ve also shot it through some heavy range cow bones without any troubles, and really, whatever I carry in my G26 probably doesn’t matter nearly as much as that I carry whenever I can. Heck, today, when I carried, it was my G42. Hornady XTP in the gun, Winchester flat nose ball in the spare.
Sounds like my practice. If I were not eligible for LE pricing, I would probably carry exclusively round guns that are regulated for 130-135 grain +P ammo since 158 Remington +P LHP is pretty much unobtainable right now. I have a small handful left over from the late '80s service revolver days. I do have a backup stash of Federal XM9001 that shoots very well in all of my 9mm guns and chronographs within 25 FPS of my very small hoard of 9BPLE.

revchuck38

10-30-2018, 02:47 PM

deputyG23 - check with Target Sports for the Remington LSWC-HP. I think I noticed that they had a bunch.

LtDave

10-30-2018, 10:14 PM

Sounds like my practice. If I were not eligible for LE pricing, I would probably carry exclusively round guns that are regulated for 130-135 grain +P ammo since 158 Remington +P LHP is pretty much unobtainable right now. I have a small handful left over from the late '80s service revolver days. I do have a backup stash of Federal XM9001 that shoots very well in all of my 9mm guns and chronographs within 25 FPS of my very small hoard of 9BPLE.

I have also found the XM9001 to shoot real good in multiple guns. Bought a bunch of it. Wish I’d bought more of the Federal 124 (LE9T1) and 135 (LE9T5) bonded stuff which also shoot well for me. If anyone is still shooting .40, the Federal 165 bonded JHP is another great accurate load.

CCT125US

10-30-2018, 10:23 PM

since 158 Remington +P LHP is pretty much unobtainable right now.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38-special-p-158-gr-hp-remington-htp-50-rounds

8 in stock deputyG23

deputyG23

10-31-2018, 05:15 AM

deputyG23 - check with Target Sports for the Remington LSWC-HP. I think I noticed that they had a bunch.

Just ordered a case. My old girl .38s that are regulated for 158 grain ammo will be happy. Thanks for the heads up. Good pricing at $172/500 delivered as well.
There was some bitching on the Smith-Wesson forum some time ago about the newer lots of this ammo being loaded weaker than earlier lots from the 70’s and 80’s. I will chronograph my old stash from the mid ‘80s against the fresh stuff when it comes in just for fun...

revchuck38

10-31-2018, 06:39 AM

I have also found the XM9001 to shoot real good in multiple guns. Bought a bunch of it. Wish I’d bought more of the Federal 124 (LE9T1) and 135 (LE9T5) bonded stuff which also shoot well for me. If anyone is still shooting .40, the Federal 165 bonded JHP is another great accurate load.

I included some of the XM9001 in my recent order to try out. I'm especially interested in it for my SIG P6, an early one which was designed to run specifically with hardball, which is what that bullet is designed to emulate. That bullet has the best reputation of the old school JHPs and at $14/box is tempting. I keep telling myself to sell the P6, but it's too damned nice. Also, Target Sports has a good supply of the LE9T5 load (https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-law-enforcement-tactical-bonded-9mm-luger-ammo-135-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-le9t5-p-58970.aspx), albeit at $30/box.

deputyG23 - I risked getting killt in da streetz Sunday and carried my old favorite carry gun, a 4" M10-8 with the Remington load. I went to the range and shot the five yard round-up cold to see how much I had forgotten - some, I only scored a 91 due to the weak-hand part - and followed it up with 150 rounds of my 158-grain RNL handloads which chrono at just over 800 fps. The Remington stuff was considerably feistier. I'll chrono it when I chrono the 9x19 loads I just ordered.

23JAZ

10-31-2018, 09:03 AM

Just got this reply from SG when I asked why the price on HST 50rd boxes jumped 8 bucks a box.

Hi Jason

The factory cut off supply on the HST, Hydrashok and Golddot in 50 round boxesseveral months ago after they threw a big fit about it being sold into thecommercial market. Basically that ammunition is made for law-enforcement salesonly, however we’ve been able to break the rules without getting in trouble forit for quite a while now, but it just caught up to us finally. I’m not going tobe able to get anymore for probably a very long time. I was making $0.75 a boxwhen I sold it by the case and $1.75 when I sold it individually and I don’twant to give away the last of it at those sort of prices if I cannot getanymore. Time will tell how this all plays out but if I am able to get a new sourceor find a way to work around this and buy that ammunition cheap again I willlower the price at that time.

Thank you
Sam
SGAmmo

23JAZ

10-31-2018, 12:23 PM

Never mind

mtnbkr

11-02-2018, 09:26 AM

I ordered 5 boxes from Streichers as well. Unfortunately, I didn't see the note about the discount code until I finished the order, but the $22/box is around the best price I've paid for 147gr HST, so I'm not upset. Per tracking, it should arrive Thursday.

Chris

Order showed up Thursday. I have to say I'm happy with my Streichers experience. I ordered the ammo Sunday night and had it by Thursday afternoon at a great price and free shipping. Not sure it gets any better than that.

This gives me 9 full boxes and most of a 10th (split between two mags with a few loose rounds). That should keep me going for a while.

Chris

witchking777

11-02-2018, 11:10 AM

I split a case,I have 13 full boxes and a partial. Guess that will have to hold me for a bit.

jwperry

11-04-2018, 06:34 PM

I'm tapped out financially, but hopefully someone who needs it, won't resell and hose "us" later could use some at the legacy pricing.

https://massammo.com/sale-federal-hst-9mm-147-grain-1000-round-case-flat-rate-shipping.html?utm_source=Mass+Ammo+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e14e5e2f77-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_11_03_08_46&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4a8f08bac3-e14e5e2f77-147903345&mc_cid=e14e5e2f77&mc_eid=3766e9a691

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

STI

11-04-2018, 07:30 PM

jwperry

11-04-2018, 07:34 PM

That went quick! I nearly bought a case, until I checked my bank account to see it wasn't feasible right now. Then I came to post here.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

O4L

11-04-2018, 07:44 PM

They still have the 124gr +P available.

https://massammo.com/federal-hst-9mm-124-grain-p-1000round-case-2-case-max-flat-rate-shipping.html

pangloss

11-04-2018, 07:52 PM

They still have the 124gr +P available.

https://massammo.com/federal-hst-9mm-124-grain-p-1000round-case-2-case-max-flat-rate-shipping.html

They also still have 50 round boxes of 147 gr HST (P9HST2) available. I just bought 6 boxes, which is a multi year supply for me. Thanks for the heads up. I'd never heard of this company before.

https://massammo.com/federal-hst-9mm-147-grain-50-round-box-flat-rate-shipping.html

Yung

11-04-2018, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the tip, I just got 10 boxes of the 124gr HST. The 124gr +P cases actually went out of stock while I was refreshing the page.

Not the best timing for me finance-wise, but when I think about how I paid 26 dollars each for 3 boxes of 20 Gold Dots at my local range, this is something that likely won't be around anymore when Black Friday rolls in.

blues

11-04-2018, 08:25 PM

They also still have 50 round boxes of 147 gr HST (P9HST2) available. I just bought 6 boxes, which is a multi year supply for me. Thanks for the heads up. I'd never heard of this company before.

https://massammo.com/federal-hst-9mm-147-grain-50-round-box-flat-rate-shipping.html

I've ordered with them before. They're good to go.

revchuck38

11-04-2018, 08:43 PM

gruntjim

11-06-2018, 09:54 AM

I called Streichers to verify my eligibility.

They still accept retired MIL credentials.

BBMW

11-09-2018, 04:05 PM

Maybe there needs to be a boycott of Vista Outdoor. Here are there brands

https://vistaoutdoor.com/brands/

blues

11-09-2018, 04:12 PM

Maybe there needs to be a boycott of Vista Outdoor. Here are there brands

https://vistaoutdoor.com/brands/

Well, you can always join REI. ;)

muzzleblast

11-09-2018, 04:40 PM

Today I was surprised to find an advertisement from Federal in my personal email inbox. Here's the link they sent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Tx98B-hzc

LOL. I dunno how Vista got my personal email address. Too bad they weren't offering up any personal defense ammo.

Mebbe 'cause I live in the Tennessee woods they think I need some defendin' against squirrels and 'possums 'n such. :rolleyes:

Will_H

11-09-2018, 05:16 PM

Well, you can always join REI. ;)

Yeah, I think pressure for chains like REI specifically is why they are running around and tightening up on anything firearms related, and why they are selling Savage and Stevens.

WobblyPossum

11-09-2018, 05:41 PM

GyroF-16

11-09-2018, 05:59 PM

JSGlock34

11-09-2018, 06:31 PM

I saw the rebate but wasn't sure it would apply to 50 round boxes as it seems to apply to the Personal Defense branded HST. The 50 round boxes are branded Law Enforcement Ammunition.

Perhaps I'm over thinking this but it seems aimed at the 20 round boxes discussed earlier in the thread.

https://promotions.vistaoutdoor.com/Content/images/promotions/VW3NN3GAH3JKZMN8MJ84U7ETPPUWDB4F.jpg

WobblyPossum

11-09-2018, 06:52 PM

I saw the rebate but wasn't sure it would apply to 50 round boxes as it seems to apply to the Personal Defense branded HST.

I didn’t even think of that. That’s lame if true. Might be worth an email to Vista to verify.

LOBO

11-10-2018, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the info the other day on www.massammo.com as I was able to get some 9mm & .45 acp HST.

Hambo

11-10-2018, 07:16 PM

Maybe there needs to be a boycott of Vista Outdoor. Here are there brands

https://vistaoutdoor.com/brands/

Federal may be dicks about ammo, but RCBS just shipped me die parts (that I broke) on the house. I'm not giving up Alliant powder because they're capitalists.

Sauer Koch

11-13-2018, 09:30 AM

FYI, I just ordered 700r of 124/HST from these guys @ $24.95/50r box, which is the same price I had paid at SG Ammo in the past. I've ordered from them before, they are another family owned business, and I've had good, reliable service from them. I placed the order on Wed night, 7th, and got it yesterday, vis UPS. They still show 6 cases left, and a good bit of individual boxes. Aside from Bone Frog, this is the best price I've seen on HST, since I started this thread. I just wanted to share the find at OL.

https://www.outdoorlimited.com/bulk-ammo-case-pricing/federal-9mm-hst-tactical-p9hst1-124-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-case-1000-rounds/

RevolverRob

11-13-2018, 10:17 AM

I know it won’t make anyone less justifiably upset but Vista is offering a rebate on Federal brand defensive ammo including HST and Hydrashok Deep: https://promotions.vistaoutdoor.com/EN/US/Home/Brand/1069

Buy two boxes of ammo and get $5 back. If you can snag a case, that’s $50.

I saw the rebate but wasn't sure it would apply to 50 round boxes as it seems to apply to the Personal Defense branded HST. The 50 round boxes are branded Law Enforcement Ammunition.

Perhaps I'm over thinking this but it seems aimed at the 20 round boxes discussed earlier in the thread.

https://promotions.vistaoutdoor.com/Content/images/promotions/VW3NN3GAH3JKZMN8MJ84U7ETPPUWDB4F.jpg

I didn’t even think of that. That’s lame if true. Might be worth an email to Vista to verify.

Still note sure if it applies to HST LE boxes -
Cash redemption value is 1/100 of 1 cent. Maximum rebate limited to $5 per qualifying box purchase. Minimum of 2 boxes must be purchased to qualify. Redemption limited to ten (10) boxes or $50 per household. Purchase must be made between Nov 1, 2018 and Mar 31, 2019, and the rebate form along with required documents must be postmarked by Apr 30, 2019. Consumer must submit rebate form with product UPC barcodes cut from packaging, original cash register receipt and/or dated itemized sales invoice. Please allow approximately 8 to 10 weeks for delivery. CONSUMER REBATE ONLY. Clubs, groups, organizations and dealer entries are void and will not be honored, acknowledged or returned. Purchases made through ExpertVoice®, Wholesalers, Distributors, Vista Outdoor discount programs and retailer employee discount programs are excluded. Material from non-compliant requests will be determined without response. No duplicate or reproduced rebate forms will be honored (online rebate submission form acceptable). Void where prohibited and subject to all laws. Offer valid for U.S. and Canadian purchases and U.S. and Canadian residents only. Rebate paid in U.S. funds only. This rebate may not be combined with any other offers or coupons affecting the same product. Federal may change the terms of the promotion at any time. Subject to product availability; quantities limited. Backordered purchases will not be honored unless received and paid for by the final valid purchase date of March 31, 2019.

But right now, Target Sports USA only shows rebates for the 20-round boxes. Still, if one was okay with 124-grain Hydrashok (instead of HST). The price from Target Sports is $13/box, which works out to 39.5¢ per round after the rebate, which isn't a bad price for a premium JHP. I might snag 200 rounds just to use in the 9mm AR.

revchuck38

11-18-2018, 07:38 PM

In case any of my fellow dinosaurs need any, Mass Ammo (https://massammo.com/) still has 50 round boxes of 40 HST in 165- and 180-grain flavors and standard velocity 45 230-grain. $23/box.

FNFAN

11-19-2018, 12:29 AM

In case any of my fellow dinosaurs need any, Mass Ammo (https://massammo.com/) still has 50 round boxes of 40 HST in 165- and 180-grain flavors and standard velocity 45 230-grain. $23/box.

Thanks for that revchuck38

I like their flat rate shipping!

dudley0

12-08-2018, 09:22 AM

Just grabbed (6) 50 round boxes of GD 124 +p from sgammo.

No big mark up, and no LE requirement. They still sell the 20 round boxes but for more per round.

03RN

12-08-2018, 10:47 AM

Just grabbed (6) 50 round boxes of GD 124 +p from sgammo.

No big mark up, and no LE requirement. They still sell the 20 round boxes but for more per round.

50% isn't a big mark up? Those were $20/50 a couple months ago.

dudley0

12-08-2018, 02:35 PM

Granted this is what I was paying at the gun shows a couple years ago, but I was under the impression that all of this was going up or being reserved for LEO.

Maybe I shouldn't have jumped when I did.

StraitR

03-27-2019, 08:40 PM

I realize that companies have the right to refuse service to anyone but I will not do any business of any kind with a company that decides that my non LEO status makes me asecond-class customer.

You are completely missing the mark here. They sell the same ammunition to distributors/vendors at a discounted rate so they can in turn sell it to LE professionals for less. LE and non LE SKU's are different for this purpose. It's a contractual obligation to obtain credentials when selling LE SKU ammo. Anybody not obtaining creds is doing it wrong, and screwing over every LE, MIL, and First Responder who can't find the ammo in-stock at their local dealer. It's merely a matter of time before those who don't play by the rules are cut off, and most (if not all) ammunition companies will cut you off for both LE/MIL and commercially. The worst offenders aren't even typically LE/MIL vendors, but are buying it out the back door somewhere else, like Bone Frogs.

If you're offended by this, then you must be offended by every other discount you don't personally qualify for.

David C.

03-28-2019, 12:22 AM

You are completely missing the mark here. They sell the same ammunition to distributors/vendors at a discounted rate so they can in turn sell it to LE professionals for less. LE and non LE SKU's are different for this purpose. It's a contractual obligation to obtain credentials when selling LE SKU ammo. Anybody not obtaining creds is doing it wrong, and screwing over every LE, MIL, and First Responder who can't find the ammo in-stock at their local dealer. It's merely a matter of time before those who don't play by the rules are cut off, and most (if not all) ammunition companies will cut you off for both LE/MIL and commercially. The worst offenders aren't even typically LE/MIL vendors, but are buying it out the back door somewhere else, like Bone Frogs.

If you're offended by this, then you must be offended by every other discount you don't personally qualify for.

I did not realize we were experiencing a shortage where LE, MIL, and First Responders were unable to find ammo in-stock at their local dealer. I thought most LE, MIL, and First Responders were ISSUED duty ammunition.

Regarding Bone Frog, you might want to check out the attached link to their customer registration page which states qualifying credentials required.
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/pages/customer-registration-form

fwrun

03-28-2019, 01:16 AM

I’m issued ammo at work but I’m free to buy extras. My local LE dealer has been unable to get 147gr HST in the 50rd boxes in enough quantity to keep it on the shelf for months. In large part due to backdoor sales by other retailers, most of which are online

Cypher

03-28-2019, 01:21 AM

You are completely missing the mark here. They sell the same ammunition to distributors/vendors at a discounted rate so they can in turn sell it to LE professionals for less. LE and non LE SKU's are different for this purpose. It's a contractual obligation to obtain credentials when selling LE SKU ammo. Anybody not obtaining creds is doing it wrong, and screwing over every LE, MIL, and First Responder who can't find the ammo in-stock at their local dealer. It's merely a matter of time before those who don't play by the rules are cut off, and most (if not all) ammunition companies will cut you off for both LE/MIL and commercially. The worst offenders aren't even typically LE/MIL vendors, but are buying it out the back door somewhere else, like Bone Frogs.

If you're offended by this, then you must be offended by every other discount you don't personally qualify for.

You do realize that this thread is 4 months out of date right?

Chuck Whitlock

03-31-2019, 11:55 AM

Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
I realize that companies have the right to refuse service to anyone but I will not do any business of any kind with a company that decides that my non LEO status makes me asecond-class customer.

You are completely missing the mark here. They sell the same ammunition to distributors/vendors at a discounted rate so they can in turn sell it to LE professionals for less. LE and non LE SKU's are different for this purpose. It's a contractual obligation to obtain credentials when selling LE SKU ammo. Anybody not obtaining creds is doing it wrong, and screwing over every LE, MIL, and First Responder who can't find the ammo in-stock at their local dealer. It's merely a matter of time before those who don't play by the rules are cut off, and most (if not all) ammunition companies will cut you off for both LE/MIL and commercially. The worst offenders aren't even typically LE/MIL vendors, but are buying it out the back door somewhere else, like Bone Frogs.

If you're offended by this, then you must be offended by every other discount you don't personally qualify for.

So, you don't own Glocks because they have a blue label program? Won't patronize restaurants that offer an LE discount? Do you feel the same way about veteran's and senior citizen discounts?

ETA: The above question is rhetorical in nature, and not a direct query expecting a reply.