Opinions on external safety

[Speederlander]

Hoping this is not the typical pro-con external safety debate that is so common. Better sample of experienced people on this forum.

If you have a pistol with an external safety (1911, etc.), and assuming you train the hell out of it....and if the fight is 6 yards down to grappling distance or otherwise up close, personal and ugly QUICKLY and unexpectedly.
For this specific case, is an external safety:
1. A hindrance no matter how much you practice (due to the unexpected, etc.)
2. A wash compared to the other options (net impact zero as long as you are well practiced)
3. A benefit (preventing the assailant/perp/etc. from forcing an unwanted discharge, etc.)

Or none of the above and something else?

Again, this question assumes you have spent significant time training that weapon with that particular safety and the fight is sudden and bad breath distance or close enough to get that way in a second or two.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Some very scary personal experience says #3. I'm here today to bother/entertain/inform y'all because of a 1911 safety.

[Speederlander]

Some very scary personal experience says #3. I'm here today to bother/entertain/inform y'all because of a 1911 safety.

Exactly the kind of informed feedback I am looking for. Thanks.

[farscott]

I am not an expert, but my belief is, "it depends". At least one forum member mentioned that his thumb was injured badly enough in an encounter to make a thumb safety not usable. I have seen experienced people fail to click off a 1911 safety under the stress of IDPA. I am also personally aware of at least one person who survived because the bad guy could not figure out how to get the safety to the "bang" position.

My other belief is that, for me, a long consistent trigger pull is better than a manual safety. Less controls to manipulate and fewer variables are better for me. As such, I prefer LEM.

[DA_Auto]

# 1 for me

DAO

[JohnO]

I posted this somewhere on this site before.

I was in a Kyle Defoor class where Kyle demonstrated some contact shots on a target with a Glock. Kyle put just under the amount of pressure required to force the Glock out of battery on the muzzle of the gun. Kyle then went on to say the 1911 was an archaic gun because it was not capable of doing what he did. Seeing as I was shooting a 1911 in his class I begged to differ.

I proceeded to grab the target with one hand and jam my 1911 into it with the other. I'm talking about significantly more force than Kyle was using as the target was deformed by the pressure from my gun's muzzle. I then proceeded to easily put a contact round into the target. I explained to Kyle the 1911's Safety locks the slide in battery. If I need to make a contact shot I could put all my weight into the gun if required and still fire a shot. The technique is finger depressing the trigger. Disengaging the Safety fires the pistol. That was something his Glock can not do! He learned something.

[Sensei]

It depends. For SA it’s a must. For DAO or DA/SA it’s probably unnecessary. For striker-fired guns without a SCD/gadget it’s probably a very good idea.

[LSP552]

It depends. For SA it’s a must. For DAO or DA/SA it’s probably unnecessary. For striker-fired guns without a SCD/gadget it’s probably a very good idea.

This ^. And I’d add that if you carry a gun with a safety, don’t mix and match with others that don’t. I carried a 1911 for work for a number of years, and truly love them. When I carried them, the only non 1911 I carried was a J-frame backup.

I have a former coworker who failed to take the safety off a Browning HP when he was being shot at from about 6 ft distance. He carried a revolver sometimes and swapping likely messed with his head. He is lucky the asshole missed. I’m lucky because the asshole missed me when I rolled up.

[JAH 3rd]

I look at this from the aspect of which pistol I shoot most proficiently, that is shoot with confidence and accuracy. If it has a safety I incorporate that into the training for that pistol. I also look at a safety as something that I can use or not. Sort of like a weapon mounted light, it's there and I decided if and when to use it. If we are talking about a safety on a duty pistol, then SOP might regulate it's usage.

Magazine disconnects can also spark a lively debate!

[DocGKR]

I have twice seen officers' lives saved when an engaged manual safety prevented a pistol lost from their control from firing...

[Bucky]

This ^. And I’d add that if you carry a gun with a safety, don’t mix and match with others that don’t. I carried a 1911 for work for a number of years, and truly love them. When I carried them, the only non 1911 I carried was a J-frame backup.


I’ve shot 1911s pretty exclusively my first 10 years of shooting. My thumb comes down on the “safety” on every gun I shoot, even if it doesn’t exist. Starting on another platform, perhaps it wouldn’t be so instinctive.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I have twice seen officers' lives saved when an engaged manual safety prevented a pistol lost from their control from firing...

I’ve always wondered why Glock, with their huge foothold on the domestic LE market, doesn’t offer a manual safety (a la M&P or 1911 type) as an option. I’m sure it’d be necessary to revise the training required to operate it, but at least it’d be out there, available.


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[ST911]

Am mindful of anecdotes about manual and magazine safety saves. Still, they are outliers and I have no use or interest in an external safety on a DA/DAO service or CCW pistol. For an LCD, the downside may outweigh the benefits.


I’ve always wondered why Glock, with their huge foothold on the domestic LE market, doesn’t offer a manual safety (a la M&P or 1911 type) as an option. I’m sure it’d be necessary to revise the training required to operate it, but at least it’d be out there, available.

CONUS LE demand is likely too low to measure, probably the same on the commercial side as well. In a striker fired safety-less world, many curriculums don't even discuss safety manipulation. Instructor competencies in teaching safety lever management are fading. Heck, some can barely teach a decocking lever.

Glocks with manual safeties exist. I suspect that if any agency of enough note wanted them they'd have them.

[lwt16]

I’ve always wondered why Glock, with their huge foothold on the domestic LE market, doesn’t offer a manual safety (a la M&P or 1911 type) as an option. I’m sure it’d be necessary to revise the training required to operate it, but at least it’d be out there, available.



A good number of officers I work with don't even have their hoods up on their Safariland duty holsters as they never train to draw with the hood properly engaged. They simply rely on just the thumb lever to access the pistol.

Adding a 1911 style safety would blow their collective minds. We do less and less "gun" training as the years go by.

Hilarity ensues at Simunition training when detectives and line level officers can't defeat their holster retention features in man on man shootouts. They tug and tug at their sim gun and after getting shot four or five times simply sigh, shrug, and give up.

It's depressing to watch.

Regards.

[Robinson]

I look at this from the aspect of which pistol I shoot most proficiently, that is shoot with confidence and accuracy. If it has a safety I incorporate that into the training for that pistol. I also look at a safety as something that I can use or not. Sort of like a weapon mounted light, it's there and I decided if and when to use it. If we are talking about a safety on a duty pistol, then SOP might regulate it's usage.

Magazine disconnects can also spark a lively debate!

I may be missing your meaning here, but I would argue that if a gun is equipped with a safety mechanism it should always be used. Maybe there are exceptions, but when it comes to single action pistols such as the 1911 or AR-pattern rifles it seems to me that using the safety and training that way are essential -- not optional.

I guess the exception I would make is a lever gun with the traditional half-cock notch as well as a safety. Adding a safety to those guns was just dumb because the half-cock position works just fine.

[SAWBONES]

And I’d add that if you carry a gun with a safety, don’t mix and match with others that don’t. I carried a 1911 for work for a number of years, and truly love them. When I carried them, the only non 1911 I carried was a J-frame backup.


I'll echo the opinion that (even though John Browning didn't include such in his original 1911 design) a single action pistol carried cocked, as it should be for best readiness, requires an active safety.

And as LSP552 said, a J-frame, or other long-pull revolver trigger, is sufficiently different from a 1911 or other SA semiautomatic trigger, and the "feel" of the revolver in hand too is sufficiently distinct from that of a 1911, that probably no confusion about trigger/safety operation should occur under stress, if one should carry both types of gun.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

A good number of officers I work with don't even have their hoods up on their Safariland duty holsters as they never train to draw with the hood properly engaged. They simply rely on just the thumb lever to access the pistol.

Adding a 1911 style safety would blow their collective minds. We do less and less "gun" training as the years go by.

Hilarity ensues at Simunition training when detectives and line level officers can't defeat their holster retention features in man on man shootouts. They tug and tug at their sim gun and after getting shot four or five times simply sigh, shrug, and give up.

It's depressing to watch.

Regards.

Agreed. I have seen guys I work with doing the same thing. It’s weird, because for me, having come from an SSIII or thumb break type holster, the draw stroke on the 6360 series holsters are so ergonomic and easy to use whilst getting a FFG.


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[sharps54]

I posted this somewhere on this site before.

I was in a Kyle Defoor class where Kyle demonstrated some contact shots on a target with a Glock. Kyle put just under the amount of pressure required to force the Glock out of battery on the muzzle of the gun. Kyle then went on to say the 1911 was an archaic gun because it was not capable of doing what he did. Seeing as I was shooting a 1911 in his class I begged to differ.

I proceeded to grab the target with one hand and jam my 1911 into it with the other. I'm talking about significantly more force than Kyle was using as the target was deformed by the pressure from my gun's muzzle. I then proceeded to easily put a contact round into the target. I explained to Kyle the 1911's Safety locks the slide in battery. If I need to make a contact shot I could put all my weight into the gun if required and still fire a shot. The technique is finger depressing the trigger. Disengaging the Safety fires the pistol. That was something his Glock can not do! He learned something.

I remember hearing that at one point in the ‘90’s Tacoma PD had a trainer that taught officers to hold suspects at gunpoint that way with their Kimbers, finger on trigger thumb safety on. I can’t confirm that myself it is just something I heard from an officer with a different department.

[JAH 3rd]

The original post reads that one has a pistol on one's person, hopefully in a holster. The use of a safety depends on the pistol. The 1911 in condition 1 is cocked and locked, which is the way I would carry one. However, some may carry that 1911 with a round in the chamber with the hammer lowered to the rest position. That negates the use of a thumb safety. The Beretta 92 that I have has a safety/decocker lever. With this pistol, one has the option of engaging the safety or not when the hammer is in the rest position. My response was specifically for the question the original poster asked, the use of a safety on a pistol. To be clear, if one's pistol is in SA mode, engage the safety. If the hammer is at rest, that's where the option to engage or not comes in.

Now when one introduces a long gun with a safety, I am all for an engaged safety. The specific AR example for instance needs the safety engaged when a live round is chambered.

[rjohnson4405]

I'm DA or guns with an external safety only, even added a Cominolli (sp?) to my Glock 19.

Ernest Langdon and Darryl Bolke have both made good points as to why and frankly, I enjoy those types of guns more. It also makes new shooters MUCH more comfortable, whether or not that's a good reason is another discussion.

Pretty much the only reason I have for not going Glock Gen 5 route.

[Bucky]

I’ve always wondered why Glock, with their huge foothold on the domestic LE market, doesn’t offer a manual safety (a la M&P or 1911 type) as an option. I’m sure it’d be necessary to revise the training required to operate it, but at least it’d be out there, available.


It almost seems like they go out of their way NOT to offer a manual safety. Especially when you consider they REMOVED it to create the 19X.

[Crazy Dane]

I gotta go with #3. It has been a lifetime ago since I had to fight a junkie for my 1911. During the struggle all I can remember thinking is "I gotta keep the safety on". I pushed so hard with my thumb that I tore/cut a 1.5 inch gash across the pad. It ended when I was able to break contact and draw. I never fired a shot. I do believe that being able to hold the safety on kept the gun from going off that day.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I gotta go with #3. It has been a lifetime ago since I had to fight a junkie for my 1911. During the struggle all I can remember thinking is "I gotta keep the safety on". I pushed so hard with my thumb that I tore/cut a 1.5 inch gash across the pad. It ended when I was able to break contact and draw. I never fired a shot. I do believe that being able to hold the safety on kept the gun from going off that day.

My 1911 was out of the holster and in the hands of my attacker. I didn't know I'd lost the gun in the fight. The safety was a clear game changer for me. I remember thinking, while grappling over the pistol that "this gun is going to get shot and I don't care what it hits as long as it isn't me".

[daved20319]

Excellent, thought provoking post. I'm neither expert or highly experienced, only been back into firearms for a couple of years, and only refocused on handguns in the last year. Started with a striker fired pistol, but have since switched over to guns with hammers. Currently have a 1911 as well as DA/SA's, some with safety, some decocker. Was going back and forth between the different platforms during my last range trip, when I noticed I was developing a hesitation betwee drawing and firing. Turns out the switch between platforms had me asking myself, what's different, and that was causing the hesitation. Yes, I know training could possibly alleviate that particular problem, but I'm just a casual shooter, not an armed professional or competitive shooter, with limited resources. So I've decided that a consistent manual of arms is a better answer for me, and that DA/SA with decocker is the best choice, especially as my preferred carry method is AIWB. May not actually be safer than a cocked and locked 1911, but it feels like it is. Just a "beginners" perspective on the subject.

Dave

[JohnO]

I have twice seen officers' lives saved when an engaged manual safety prevented a pistol lost from their control from firing...

The NJ State Police in years past carried HK P7s. I believe there were a few instances where the squeeze cocker saved a trooper who lost control of his P7. The unfamiliarity and uniqueness of the squeeze cocking mechanism defeated the 'individual' who gained control of the weapon.

[Crazy Dane]

My 1911 was out of the holster and in the hands of my attacker. I didn't know I'd lost the gun in the fight. The safety was a clear game changer for me. I remember thinking, while grappling over the pistol that "this gun is going to get shot and I don't care what it hits as long as it isn't me".


Wow! I learned that things can and will happen faster than an instant. My long story short, I was being robbed at knife point, the knife was less than a foot from my face. Because he had the drop I felt it was better to just give him my cash and be done with it. I did have my pistol in a bastardized holster carried in the cross draw about the 11:00 position covered with a flannel shirt and light jacket. I though everything was ok until he demanded my dinner which I was carrying in my left hand. I hypothesize that when I held the bag up for him to take I exposed my pistol. I happened so fast the only parts that I remember clearly is having my left hand on the gun pulling the safety with my thumb and trying to push the gun back into the holster, all of which is happening while rolling around on the sidewalk. I'm not even sure how I got free, on my feet and gun drawn but the bad guy decide he had other things to do. He got my cash but I still have his knife and the scar. To this day I still don't understand why he dropped his knife to go for my gun.

[JAD]

Am mindful of anecdotes about manual and magazine safety saves. Still, they are outliers

I don't disagree at all, but it's interesting that three people (four, if Doc counts for two) have spoken up saying that a safety saved a life to their witness. I wonder if we can get four people to say a fast reload saved their lives? But I'd have a heck of a time convincing myself to use a gun with a heel magazine catch (even though it's much less likely to accidentally induce a type 1 malfunction).

[Robinson]

However, some may carry that 1911 with a round in the chamber with the hammer lowered to the rest position. That negates the use of a thumb safety.

I can't think of a single good reason to carry a 1911 that way, but even if someone does it that way it still does not negate the need for the safety. What about when coming back off the target? Should the safety not be engaged at that point? Of course it should.

[psalms144.1]

I was shooting my M2.0 45 today, the one with the manual safety. I'll admit that I "forgot" about the safety on one draw, which led to a quick snatch at it and a string of hurried shots, but, still, nothing that stopped me from shooting a 300/300. I will say that this and my token 1911 are the only safety equipped pistols in my safe, and this is only my second outing with it, but I always, instinctively, engaged the safety whenever my pistol came off my eye line, including going on safe while taking a knee between 3-shot strings in a 6-shot engagement.

I wish the safety was more 1911ish in placement and "feel," but, if I opt for another 2.0 in another caliber at a later date, it will have a MS...

[Doc_Glock]

Are there any stories about officers who got a nothing when they expected a bang and suffered the consequences due to failure to release the safety under stress?

They have to be out there. The question is, do they outnumber the officers not shot by their own weapons due to a safety.

[TheNewbie]

Would the gun grab situations where a manual safety made the difference been negated by a holster like a Safariland 070 or ALS ?

[willie]

I used semi autos with safeties since age 14. For me they are an extension of my hand. I prefer them but can not advise professionals.

[John Hearne]

I'm relying on memory but the issue of officers killed due to failure to activate the manual safety has been discussed a lot over the years. IIRC, there is a picture of a "dead" officer in one of the Calibre Press books but research found it to be a staged photo.

[Crazy Dane]

Would the gun grab situations where a manual safety made the difference been negated by a holster like a Safariland 070 or ALS ?

It is a most definite yes for my incident but it happened in 1992. Holster selection back then was mail order or a limited choice at the local hardware store. The holster I was using at the time was a Threepersons type that I had cut on and moded into a crossdraw. I don't think it was even for a 1911 gun either. There may have been something like that back then but as a civilian I don't think I would have made that choice anyway.

[sharps54]

I'm relying on memory but the issue of officers killed due to failure to activate the manual safety has been discussed a lot over the years. IIRC, there is a picture of a "dead" officer in one of the Calibre Press books but research found it to be a staged photo.

Luckily it wasn’t a fatality but CPT E.R. Walt related an incident where an officer switched from a 1911 back to a revolver after forgetting to take the safety off in one of his books. I don’t remember if it was in Holloway’s Raiders or the Hall Street Shootout book.

ETA I found it, the account is from Det. Tom Sewell in the back of the Hall Street Shootout book.

“Less than two years after Hall Street, Detective Tom Sewell, who had been the lead detective on that case, would be shot in the chest while attempting to arrest a wanted, armed robbery suspect. It is a story best told in his own words: “On Father’s Day 1971 we hit an apartment on Live Oak to arrest a hi-jacker named Melvin Edward Morales. A lady friend of his told us that she had just left the apartment and that he was there alone. I was the first through the door and had my pistol (a .45 Colt Commander) in my hand with the safety off. I saw a figure asleep on the couch wrapped from head to toe in a quilt. When I pulled the quilt away the figure turned out to be a 15 year old girl. “I immediately put the safety back on and ran for the bedroom. As I got to the door Morales shot me in the chest. I tried to return fire but the pistol was on safe and I guess I was in shock because I forgot to take the safety off and just stood there trying to fire. Loyd Richey was in the bathroom next to me and I told him, ‘The son-of-a-bitch killed me’. Loyd replied, ‘Then get the hell back in the living room to die, you’re in the way.’ Anyway I sold that gun and bought a .357 revolver and never carried the .45 on duty again. Loyd managed to get a couple of rounds into Morales and he dove through a floor window head first, breaking his leg in the fall. His left arm was useless after that and after serving 12 or 13 years in the joint on a life sentence he was paroled during the prison crowding crisis, lived about 2 years and died.”

[BK14]

Would the gun grab situations where a manual safety made the difference been negated by a holster like a Safariland 070 or ALS ?


I second this question. For those like Doc or Mr. Dobbs that have seen safeties save lives, can we get clarification on the holster that was being used, or if the gun was already in hand?

[lwt16]

Would the gun grab situations where a manual safety made the difference been negated by a holster like a Safariland 070 or ALS ?

Maybe, assuming the gun in question is secured in a holster at the time of the grab.

I know that I have had to clear a myriad of buildings and homes and always did so with the pistol in hand. I utilized a close compression hold and tried to never extend it around blind corners and such. With the addition of a pistol light policy, some tips and tricks had to be learned in classes and in the field to keep the gun close to my happy zone.

I have had to holster up pretty quick when finding felons in said houses/buildings and when they added pistol lights, I had to sort of re-learn my holster process as the TLR HL caused me to hang up on occasion. I try to never "speed holster" my weapons for the safety aspect of it all but I will freely admit that there are times where the re-holster is just a fraction of a second slower than my speed draw: because after all this time reading felon's body language and their eye movement has given me clues as to their next moves (flight or fight) and the pistol had to get stowed immediately. Cover officers handled that part while I handled the habius grabbus.

I never wanted to play tug-o-war with the sidearm.......and had plans to try to ditch the mag during the dance and attempt to eject or stovepipe the round if possible and go to a hideout piece. Or to soak up that one round and then hope that it was a survivable hit so that I could empty a hideout into the opponent. Plans for this.....plans for that.

I've never had to rely on those plans over the last 22 or 23 years....thank the Lord. Going full Viking when it was warranted prevented it and saved more felons than it truly harmed. Old school for sure but it worked well.

Now if my agency were to suddenly go to a manual safety sidearm they would give the customary 40 hour familiarization class and then hope for the best.......just like they did when we went from the SSIII holster to the hooded ALS variety. After a looooong time of carrying a SSIII, it took THOUSANDS of draws with this new rig to get comfortable with it to where I don't look like an idiot in Sim inservice and can get my first shot off respectable.

If they issued a 1911 tomorrow, it would take another 1000 draws including some shooting to get used to it again. I carried one back in the day and was used to it. I'd have to train hard to get those synapses firing again.

Worth what you paid for it........

Regards.

[awp_101]

I wish the safety was more 1911ish in placement and "feel," but, if I opt for another 2.0 in another caliber at a later date, it will have a MS...
Last night I ordered the parts to convert my 1.0 9c to a thumb safety. Same as you, any future M&Ps bought with the idea of being anything but strictly a game or range gun will have the thumb safety.

[TiroFijo]

I’ve always wondered why Glock, with their huge foothold on the domestic LE market, doesn’t offer a manual safety (a la M&P or 1911 type) as an option. I’m sure it’d be necessary to revise the training required to operate it, but at least it’d be out there, available.


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Like this one?

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/C4D84ECB-8265-42A7-BFFD-AA24B60D1FBA.jpeg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/DD85E5EF-FBF8-4625-AC42-C8B1AD82FE2E.jpeg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/64DA5027-E58D-4DEF-879D-D3EACFC4FE24.jpeg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/33B736D2-2D87-4C28-9275-D2F9BEAAB1EE.jpeg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/01/19/gen5-glock-22-sao-paulo/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/16/glock-g22-gen5-acceptance-tests-in-brazil-by-pmesp-full-videos/

Glock has also made G17/19/22 in the past with a crossbolt safety. Not good IME.

I have never tried the 1911 style thumb safety on the glock as this brazilian model shown, but it seems WAY better. Apparently is the same safety used in their MHS entry.

[DocGKR]

In both of the incidents I described the duty holster was a Safariland SSIII for a 3rd gen S&W carried on safe; however in both cases the pistols were out of the holster when the event occurred.

[Rex G]

I'm relying on memory but the issue of officers killed due to failure to activate the manual safety has been discussed a lot over the years. IIRC, there is a picture of a "dead" officer in one of the Calibre Press books but research found it to be a staged photo.

That iconic image was a still from a Caliber Press training video, so, yes, it was staged. I saw the video, at our academy.

[chances R]

From a purely civilian perspective and as a trainer, the majority of civilians buy a gun, maybe carry their gun, but are really poor gun handlers. I would opt for a manual safety for pure safety purposes. They will be carrying, handling, ignoring their gun the majority of the time in varying carrying methods. For their safety and mine, I think novice shooters should learn the manipulate and handle a gun with a safety until they are competent handlers. The only exception I see is a heavy DAO firearm. I compare the situation to hunting. The safety should always be engaged until one decides to fire. I have been on hunts where a novice disengages the safety in anticipation of the flush, or a duck landing in the decoys...….poor form from a safety standpoint.

[PD Sgt.]

Would the gun grab situations where a manual safety made the difference been negated by a holster like a Safariland 070 or ALS ?

In my early career we carried Smith 4506s with the safety off. Officers had the option of using the Safariland 070 holster if they could qualify with it. I know several officers who were saved from gun grabs by that holster. One in particular was actually being lifted from the ground by the suspect trying to get the pistol out of the holster. I have no doubt that officer would have lost his weapon had it not been for the retention. In light of the fact we carried safety off, it likely did save him.

[Chuck Whitlock]

A good number of officers I work with don't even have their hoods up on their Safariland duty holsters as they never train to draw with the hood properly engaged. They simply rely on just the thumb lever to access the pistol.

It's depressing to watch.


Agreed. I have seen guys I work with doing the same thing. It’s weird, because for me, having come from an SSIII or thumb break type holster, the draw stroke on the 6360 series holsters are so ergonomic and easy to use whilst getting a FFG.

It seems that the new troopers come programed to do that. Makes my eye twitch.

[TC215]

I’ve written about this incident on here before, but about 5 years ago, I ended up in a fight over my 1911 with a wanted felon. I remember very distinctly during the fight (which lasted over 3 minutes—so basically, eternity), that the safety on my 1911 would buy me the second I needed to get to the j-frame on my ankle. Scary stuff, and not something I want to repeat.

Most of the stories I’ve heard about officers paying the price for not remembering to deactivate the safety involve officers who were unfamiliar with the weapon— such as an officer who carried a revolver on duty but a 1911 off duty.

I seem to remember Mas writing about this some, but I might be making that up.

[TheNewbie]

Do you all have any training recommendations for proper use of a manual safety? Like on an MP.

[psalms144.1]

Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Every time the gun comes off target, engage the safety. Holstering? Safety. Moving? Safety. Hell, you can safety before racking the slide to reset the striker if you want to - though that might develop a weird training scar...

The key is to make finding and using the safety a subconscious act, so it happens EVERY time.

[Mas]

I seem to remember Mas writing about this some, but I might be making that up.

You weren't making it up, bro.

Over the years I've found many documented cases of the manual safety defeating a gun-grabber who didn't "know which button or lever turned on the gun" when he tried to shoot the officer from whom he had taken it.

In 1977, I was feature editor for Illinois Trooper, the publication of the organization representing the Illinois State Police rank and file, Troopers' Lodge #41 of the Fraternal Order of Police. With the cooperation of command and the Ordnance Unit in Springfield, I was allowed to research how well the Model 39 pistol had worked out. In 1967, ISP had become the first state police agency in the nation to adopt a semiautomatic service pistol, the transition being complete in '68. In the intervening decade, I was able to identify thirteen troopers who were almost certainly alive because they'd had that pistol, and would probably have died had they been armed with the previous double action revolvers in their incidents. Four were firepower saves, in which there would have been no time to reload a revolver but the officers were able to finish the fight successfully with their autos. Two or three were saved by magazine disconnector safeties, when they felt the opponent gaining control of the pistol during the struggle and pressed the magazine release button, which they had been taught to do to "kill the gun" in such a situation.

ALL the rest were attributable to the Model 39 being on-safe when the suspect gained control of the trooper's weapon, pointed it at them and tried to shoot them, and failed.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department had so many saves in such circumstances that they REQUIRED deputies to carry them on-safe when the Beretta 92 FS was standard issue there.

I have, over the decades, called out publicly in the magazines for cases where forgetting to off-safe a pistol got a cop shot. The only one I've ever heard of was the one mentioned earlier here, in Dallas.

Cases where the offender gained control of an on-safe pistol and was still able to shoot at the officer he'd disarmed, are extremely rare. I've found one in Texas where the suspect literally tore the unconscious officer's holster open to get to her cocked and locked Colt .45 auto, which may have off-safed from contact with the holster during that violent act. He shot her, but she survived. I found one in Florida, also a Colt 1911, where the gun was taken by a guy who turned out to be a genuine "hit-man" who carried a cocked and locked Browning Hi-Power himself. The officer had felt the other man gaining control of the pistol, dumped the mag in the struggle, and when he saw the gun coming toward his head ducked away, causing the man to miss the one shot he had. The attacker dropped the now-empty .45 and fled.

Failures to off-safe guns occur somewhat more among what Mark Moritz calls NDPs, "non-dedicated personnel." P-F's own BBI has documented cases of armed citizens who failed to off-safe guns they were not so familiar with as they should have been. I ran across one of those in Florida, a jewelry store owner who lost a shootout with a revolver-armed robber. The jeweler survived, and stated that he pulled his trigger first, but his on-safe Walther PPK .380 did not fire, and the bad guy's revolver did. When asked if he had practiced with his gun, he replied rather heatedly, "I'm not Rambo, alright?" or words to that effect.

[GardoneVT]

From my perch I have two views. Assuming the user is willing and able to frequently practice drawing and disengaging the safety, it is a net benefit. Admin handling of the firearm is marginally safer, and thus the risk of a personal ND is lower. LE officers who have to converse with potentially violent people at 2’ distance are definitely served well with some kind of a safety; at conversation distance from some angles it might even be easier for the Other Guy to get to a cops gun then the cop wearing it.

The flip side to this is “willing and able to practice” . If the user can’t meet that standard- and there may be very good reasons why this is so - a LEM/DAO trigger system may be best.

[BehindBlueI's]

I am not an expert, but my belief is, "it depends". At least one forum member mentioned that his thumb was injured badly enough in an encounter to make a thumb safety not usable.

That's me. I would have had to use both hands, one of which was rather tied up at the moment, and might not have been able to deactivate a grip safety due to the deformation of my hand. I certainly don't want to take anything away from the officers/citizens who've experienced a safety saving them, but I won't carry a handgun with an external safety. If I *had* to it would be an ambi safety. I'll rely on retention holster and weapon retention training over relying on the other guy not knowing how to work the safety. I completely understand if someone wants that extra layer, though. If you want it, train, train, train, and work on your injured fighting.


Are there any stories about officers who got a nothing when they expected a bang and suffered the consequences due to failure to release the safety under stress?

They have to be out there. The question is, do they outnumber the officers not shot by their own weapons due to a safety.

I don't know of any officers, but literally nobody around here who has any officer involved shoots has a gun with a safety. It's all striker fired or TDA. I do know of armed citizens who've failed to deactivate the safety and were victimized, or failed to intervene for a third party, as a result. A woman was disarmed and raped in one instance. A person was unable to intervene to assist an armored car guard being robbed. A man sucked up a *lot* of .40 while pulling the dead trigger of an on-safe pistol. Etc.

I do know of one, now retired, officer who credited a magazine release for a save, though. Back in the Beretta days he was fighting a younger, stronger fellow and he just dropped the mag, let him have it, and went for his own BUG.

So, flip side, if you don't want a manual safety be sure your weapon retention training is up to par. I'd recommend SouthNarc personally. What he taught was superior to what I'd been taught prior.

[sharps54]

I know magazine safeties are unpopular but we have numerous cases of them saving lives, does anyone know of a case where having a magazine disconnect actually got someone hurt?

[Mas]

Sharps, I can only recall two of those. One in PNW; the long mag release button on the original Model 39 had bumped against the shank of the officer's holster, dislodging the magazine just enough that when he drew and attempted to fire, the chambered round did not discharge. I do not recall how severely the officer was wounded by the offender. S&W IIRC shortened the ejector rod button on the 39-2 thereafter.

Indiana: Officer draws and attempts to shoot a cop-killer with early Model 59. As he goes into Weaver stance, drumstick of support hand thumb hits mag release button and drops mag. Deputy wounded, but survived. S&W settled out of court and modified mag release spring of subsequent Model 59 series guns to approximately twice the strength of the first generation.

[That Guy]

For this specific case, is an external safety:
1. A hindrance no matter how much you practice (due to the unexpected, etc.)

In my amateur opinion, a lot would also depend on how one trains to use the safety. A lot of shooters plan their safety use exclusively to work within their normal flat range draw stroke, and some of them later encounter problems with unusual situations (retention shooting etc.).

[BehindBlueI's]

In my amateur opinion, a lot would also depend on how one trains to use the safety. A lot of shooters plan their safety use exclusively to work within their normal flat range draw stroke, and some of them later encounter problems with unusual situations (retention shooting etc.).

Retention, entangled, knocked down prone or supine, injured hand, off-hand draw due to any of the aforementioned factors, etc. My personal opinion is it's very doable to get to a 90-95% level, but very difficult to get to a 100% level. I know there's always some "but long guns...." and that's valid. However when engaging with a long gun in a civilian/LEO context you weren't surprised. You got the long gun because you knew an encounter was either imminent or at least probable. It's possible, and encouraged, to have your finger right next to and indexed on the safety release (but not touching in case of startle response, etc). I find the safety on a long gun, or a handgun that's out and being used for a search vs a reaction to incoming fire, to be simpler to master under trying circumstances.

[willie]

From age 15 I had complete access and use of a Walther P-38 fed with 9mm surplus. After it I had several 39/59 series Smiths and then numerous Beretta 92s. I never used their safeties except when decocking. My use was 100% civilian shooting. From the forum I learned that not everyone favors a safety, and some people may under stress fumble when employing one. If I were a trainer, I would prefer teaching the simplest pistol with the least number of controls and would stress weapon retention above all else.

[sharps54]

Weapons retention is the reason I asked about magazine disconnects. My weapons retention skills are limited (LFI-2, Greg Ellifritz’s Groundfighting & ECQC) but being able to use the magazine release as a kill switch would have been great during the “inside the car” evolution of ECQC. I’d probably be more likely to carry two spare magazines with a magazine disconnect but it seems like it is worth considering if it is an option on a pistol you would carry anyway (which in my case, Glock, it isn’t).

[BehindBlueI's]

...use the magazine release as a kill switch would have been great during the “inside the car” evolution of ECQC. I’d probably be more likely to carry two spare magazines with a magazine disconnect..

I would think second weapon, not second magazine. Why continue to wrestle over what is now a small club? The officer in the aforementioned story with the Beretta let the younger, stronger guy "win" and while he was occupied with turning the pistol on the older, weaker officer the officer had made distance and drew his BUG.

[LockedBreech]

Despite several years now shooting Glocks and M&Ps comfortably, I confess that since I grew up shooting and carrying a Beretta, I am still most at home and comfortable with a DA/SA safety-equipped gun. I am not an operator and I am not perfect. A safety gives me a little wiggle room to be human. I still get the heebie jeebies on occasion from my no-safety Glocks and M&Ps.

I still carry no-safety guns primarily due to a combo of other features and considerations, but I never feel quite as secure as I do with a type-F 92 series or PX4.

[sharps54]

I would think second weapon, not second magazine. Why continue to wrestle over what is now a small club? The officer in the aforementioned story with the Beretta let the younger, stronger guy "win" and while he was occupied with turning the pistol on the older, weaker officer the officer had made distance and drew his BUG.


I was thinking more in the case a magazine got dislodged accidentally but at that point it wouldn’t matter if you had a magazine safety or not. In the case of a fight for the weapon of course you are correct, dump the magazine and let go of the pistol. While he is fiddling with it you move on to another option.