Larry Vickers and Armed Equality (2 minute video)

[BCG]

Q: Do you believe the 2A community should be reaching out to non-traditional demographics, LGBT, etc.?

Larry Vickers: Absolutely. To survive, you're going to have to do that.

Watch the whole video below, 2 minutes long, for Larry's full answer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqQsnK390nw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqQsnK390nw


Larry Vickers on inclusivity reform within the Second Amendment Community

Armed Equality
Published on Oct 5, 2018

Last night I was honored to spend some time with a Second Amendment Community legend Larry Vickers.

As you might expect I spoke to him about Armed Equality and of course asked for his expert opinion on the topic of reform within the greater Second Amendment Community at large.

I have to say I was quite thankful for his answer.

Special thank you to San Diego County Gun Owners and Gunfighter Tactical for hosting this social and an extra special thank you to Larry Vickers for everything he has done and continues to do for our nation.

I found this video via Western Rifle Shooters Association (https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/herschel-response-to-larry-vickers-on-inclusion-within-the-second-amendment-community/), whose readership had a conniption in response to Larry's answer.

While I remember the Pink Pistols (https://www.salon.com/2000/03/14/pistol/) movement from the early 2000s, I had never heard of Armed Equality (https://www.facebook.com/ArmedEquality/) until now.

[RoyGBiv]

If you start with the premise that non-traditional-gun-people want to learn for their own self defense, of course Vickers is correct.
If you start with the premise that non-traditional-gun-people want to learn so they can kill you or take away your rights, then you're this guy (http://www.captainsjournal.com/2018/10/11/response-to-larry-vickers-on-inclusion-within-the-second-amendment-community/) (linked from the OP's WRSA article).

[WobblyPossum]

Women, minorities, LGBT, and young people are the future of the Second Amendment in this country. If we can't win these groups over, gun rights in this country will be gone within another generation or two.

[spinmove_]

Absolutely people outside the stereotypical OFWG group should be included in anything and everything 2A. The 2A is a right to self-defense issue and that, by it’s very nature, is all inclusive regardless of what you are. “Guns” by our modern interpretation just so happens to be our state of the art incarnation of “arms” as defined by the 2A. Unfortunately “guns” have a cultural stigma that blinds people to what’s really going on.


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[rob_s]

I had an interesting conversation with my sister in law (brother's wife) earlier this year. She was a rabid Bernie supporter, took my neice with her to "not my president" protests, etc.

She wanted to talk to me about guns. Which wasn't my first choice.

Turns out, she so strongly feels that the Dems cheated Bernie that she now doesn't trust them or the Repubs, and she feels she might need a gun.

I decided to change the subject as I wasn't exactly sure where she was headed with that.

[Irelander]

I think Larry is right on point. All Americans have the right to keep and bear arms.

The confusion comes from the fact that these groups are traditionally hostile to the 2A. Many would hear that an LGBT advocate wants to buy a gun and learn how to defend themselves and immediately think they have ulterior motives. They may also think that by allowing them into the 2A fold, that they are condoning their lifestyle choices.

But none of that has anything to do with the 2A. We should be embracing their interest in the 2A community as fellow Americans and make sure to gently steer them in the right direction to get them quality instruction and gear so that they have a pleasant experience, just as we would do with any "traditional" 2A supporter. Shunning a group away from a pleasant 2A experience and failure for the 2A as an American right.

I remember Nuggent talking about owning a pink AK to use when he would go shooting with his LGBT friends. Sounds like he gets it.


Now...Antifa folks? That might be a different story.

[WobblyPossum]

Looks like I just missed the edit window. I never understood how gun rights became a partisan issue because self defense is a civil/human/natural right that applies to everyone. I think both parties should be champions of gun rights. People on every part of the political spectrum are done a disservice by gun rights being automatically associated with Republicans/Conservatives/The Right/etc. Democrats have the same natural right to protect their lives and families as Republicans and I've met more than one pro Second Amendment Dem voter. I take any opportunity I can to show gun ownership in a positive light to anyone I interact with if the topic comes up.

[BCG]

I had never heard of Armed Equality until now.


If you start with the premise that non-traditional-gun-people want to learn for their own self defense, of course Vickers is correct.
If you start with the premise that non-traditional-gun-people want to learn so they can kill you or take away your rights, then you're this guy (http://www.captainsjournal.com/2018/10/11/response-to-larry-vickers-on-inclusion-within-the-second-amendment-community/) (linked from the OP's WRSA article).

Based on a quick search, Armed Equality (https://www.facebook.com/ArmedEquality/) -- whom Vickers was addressing -- seems more like Pink Pistols, rather than Antifa or Guerrilla Mainframe (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33369).

[BCG]

The confusion comes from the fact that these groups are traditionally hostile to the 2A.

Or that 2A advocates have traditionally been hostile to these groups.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Looks like I just missed the edit window. I never understood how gun rights became a partisan issue because self defense is a civil/human/natural right that applies to everyone. I think both parties should be champions of gun rights. People on every part of the political spectrum are done a disservice by gun rights being automatically associated with Republicans/Conservatives/The Right/etc. Democrats have the same natural right to protect their lives and families as Republicans and I've met more than one pro Second Amendment Dem voter. I take any opportunity I can to show gun ownership in a positive light to anyone I interact with if the topic comes up.

It became a true partisan issue once the propaganda machine started convincing people that the object was the problem, and prohibition was the solution.

It just happens that densely populated areas have the most violence, hence the most gun violence, and are also most likely to be democrat held regions or lean that way.

I try really hard not to blame those that have been fed a line shit for believing it. Lots of people grow up in areas where guns are associated with only death and mayhem. It would be easy in that situation to believe that the tool is the biggest part of the problem, instead of just an exacerbating factor, especially when the people that are supposed to be advocating for you are telling you that’s the case.


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[BCG]

It just happens that densely populated areas have the most violence, hence the most gun violence, and are also most likely to be democrat held regions or lean that way.

Do people who vote Democrat move to densely populated areas? Or does living in a densely populated area make one more likely to vote Democrat?

[pangloss]

Do people who vote Democrat move to densely populated areas? Or does living in a densely populated area make one more likely to vote Democrat?Definitely the latter.

EDIT: or more likely both.


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[Irelander]

Or that 2A advocates have traditionally been hostile to these groups.

That may be considering the WRSA article. But generally speaking, I don't think that is the case.

[GuanoLoco]

I found this video (omitted), whose readership had a conniption in response to Larry's answer.

While I remember the Pink Pistols (https://www.salon.com/2000/03/14/pistol/) movement from the early 2000s, I had never heard of Armed Equality (https://www.facebook.com/ArmedEquality/) until now.

I rather clearly recall making a similar recommendation at a Board of Directors meeting at my local (large) outdoor range that is a 501c(4) devoted to “training”.

The reaction was exactly what you would expect from a bunch of old white dudes.

I now live in the South, by choice. My life experience is considerably more diverse from the norm here - what doesn’t even get my attention pprently threatens others that live their lives surrounded by people ‘just like them’.

[RoyGBiv]

Or that 2A advocates have traditionally been hostile to these groups.

Not sure that I agree.
I think 2A advocates are, reasonably, hostile towards people who want to take away their rights or impose useless restrictions on legal ownership and activities.
But if a guy dressed as a woman wants to learn to shoot for self defense, that's a good thing. Always has been in my world.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Do people who vote Democrat move to densely populated areas? Or does living in a densely populated area make one more likely to vote Democrat?

The last research on it that I remember reading is at least 7 years old, but I distinctly remember both of those factors holding statistical significance.


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[scjbash]

Women, minorities, LGBT

I started teaching CCW classes earlier this year and so far a good majority of my students have been in one or more of the above categories, and that's in southwestern WV which is about as backwards as a place can get.

[ubervic]

I started teaching CCW classes earlier this year and so far a good majority of my students have been in one or more of the above categories, and that's in southwestern WV which is about as backwards as a place can get.

On the one hand, I'm heartened to hear it; on the other hand, I'm concerned that many in said groups are likely seeking out instruction for fear of being targeted for violence specifically for their appearance/behavior.

[CCT125US]

Off topic. Perhaps I have been out of the loop. Looks like Vickers has trimmed down quite a bit. Good for him.

[blues]

On the one hand, I'm heartened to hear it; on the other hand, I'm concerned that many in said groups are likely seeking out instruction for fear of being targeted for violence specifically for their appearance/behavior.

If it turns out they were correct, it makes for a prudent decision on their part.

If the fear turns out to be unjustified, (but they are levelheaded and reasonable), then no harm is done by their having decided to take responsibility for their own safety (and the safety of loved ones).

On the other hand, if they live in fear and are looking for a talisman to protect them from an imaginary boogieman, then the odds of tragic consequences go up, imho.

Everyone who carries a firearm does so because of the possible necessity of having to use it. In that sense they're no different from any other American exercising their 2A rights.

[scjbash]

From talking to them they seem to be interested in self defense for the same reasons as everyone else.



On the one hand, I'm heartened to hear it; on the other hand, I'm concerned that many in said groups are likely seeking out instruction for fear of being targeted for violence specifically for their appearance/behavior.

[RoyGBiv]

If it turns out they were correct, it makes for a prudent decision on their part.

If the fear turns out to be unjustified, (but they are levelheaded and reasonable), then no harm is done by their having decided to take responsibility for their own safety (and the safety of loved ones).

On the other hand, if they live in fear and are looking for a talisman to protect them from an imaginary boogieman, then the odds of tragic consequences go up, imho.

Everyone who carries a firearm does so because of the possible necessity of having to use it. In that sense they're no different from any other American exercising their 2A rights.

Thanks for saving me the typing.!

[pooty]

Absolutely people outside the stereotypical OFWG group should be included in anything and everything 2A. The 2A is a right to self-defense issue and that, by it’s very nature, is all inclusive regardless of what you are. “Guns” by our modern interpretation just so happens to be our state of the art incarnation of “arms” as defined by the 2A. Unfortunately “guns” have a cultural stigma that blinds people to what’s really going on.


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Hold on a sec I thought the point of the 2A was to enable resistance to tyrannical government.

[spinmove_]

Hold on a sec I thought the point of the 2A was to enable resistance to tyrannical government.

I would file that under “self-defense” with the subheading “Domestic Enemies”.


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[idahojess]

When the SAF sued Seattle in 2009 over it's "gun carrying at a public facility is trespassing rule" one of the plaintiffs was the past president of the gay-pride parade.

Everyone (who's not a felon, etc. )has the right to have, and carry a gun for lawful self defense.


The SAF has enlisted six state residents as plaintiffs, including two Department of Corrections employees who live or work in Seattle, are licensed to carry handguns, and say they have legitimate fears about "retaliation from people" encountered at work. Two other plaintiffs are active in the local gay community (Ray Carter co-chaired Seattle's pride parade in the 1990s).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seattle-sued-over-mayors-anti-gun-rules/

[FNFAN]

It's EVERY American's 2nd Amendment. Don't let your thinking become crystallized or allow America to be divided and diminished!

[einherjarvalk]

Larry is 100% correct here. However, I would add on to this that it's worth keeping a closer eye on non-traditional gun owners, not because they're inherently dangerous or anything, but because their development as people outside of the typical cultures and communities we get the majority of gun owners from may result in them having, shall we say, less-than-ideal levels of respect and common sense for firearms. In the long term they very well may and likely will become competent firearms owners, but man, most of the really, really awful and dangerous stuff I've seen people do with guns has been from people out of these groups who clearly didn't have anyone guiding them (for example, a transsexual gun owner in a Discord I was dragged into bought a Russian VIS/IR laser for fun, mounted it to her AK, and proceeded to burn her eyes by looking into the IR laser because she couldn't tell if it was working or not).

Basically, I encourage mentorship of non-traditional gun owners not only for our own benefit as part of the greater 2A community, but also because in my experience there's a not-insignificantly elevated chance that they might hurt themselves if they're coming into this hobby without the proper mindset, and pop culture isn't helping.

[KyCoo]

Agree with Vickers. The "Other community" as they are referred to, are also Americans and have all the rights to protect themselves.

[scjbash]

I started teaching CCW classes earlier this year and so far a good majority of my students have been in one or more of the above categories, and that's in southwestern WV which is about as backwards as a place can get.

A year later I'm sitting here doing the math from my 2019 class rosters, and in CCW classes this year exactly 75% of my students have been women. I haven't checked for the more advanced classes but I'd say less than 10% have been women, which is something I'm going to tackle in 2020. We have a private alumni group on Facebook and talking to the students there I feel like it's something they want to do, but it's going to require women's only classes and extensive use of loaner guns and gear.

[Yung]

Thanks for the update and keeping up on your numbers. I hope you find a solution to moving everyone to advanced.

[BigT]

All the more reason gun politics shouldn't be tied to any other sort of politics.

[Medusa]

The page and the comments OP linked to are really something, though nothing I haven’t heard before. *shrugs* what can one do but train and stay vigilant. Vickers is correct and there shouldn’t be anything controversial about it, nor should it be viewed as some gigantic concession or lamentable fact when Americans of all stripes exercise their rights and responsibilities as Americans.

[Stephanie B]

Or that 2A advocates have traditionally been hostile to these groups.

I have had some personal experience with this.

[ST911]

Many would be surprised at the number of individuals and organizations on the "other side" discreetly seeking quality training and going armed.

[45dotACP]

I'm in agreement with those who say that the right to self defense should cross the aisle.

If I might veer a smidge off topic...Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has been very good at welcoming people of all walks of life to the mats. Black, White, Hispanic, vegan, left wing, right wing, gay, straight, libertarian, male, female or other....some gyms have a culture for sure, but I get the sense that you'd be hard pressed to find a consistent overarching ideology through the martial art of BJJ.

It would be interesting to get that same mentality running through the gun culture. They are, after all, both about self defense.

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[willie]

Those fretting about the other side are the same ones peeping in windows. These folks are passing into eternity. I hope that these irrational concerns are fading. My lgs has a male clerk who has a husband. Nobody cares. About groups and the 2A, I never understood why a Jewish person would not own a firearm. The gay or lesbian folks I know are gun owners. Ditto for minority friends. My buds from groups just mentioned all vote a straight Democratic ticket. They support a party unfriendly to gun ownership. My opinion is that they will have zero influence on party aims. I have asked several if they ever voiced 2A concerns to local or state party officials. None had. I report an observation, and from it I can not make a valid generalization beyond my sample. We must not exclude any other persons based on group choice despite how they may or may not vote.

[blues]

How or why there is any confusion or consternation on this topic eludes me. We all enjoy the same rights as protected by the Constitution. Whether someone elects to exercise them is their right as well, (where not curtailed by various levels of government and bureaucratic red tape).

[jc000]

Why would the genitals that an individual prefers touching would have any bearing whatsoever on that individual’s interest in freedom and autonomy? People either appreciate the ability to think and act for themselves or they’re big pussies (like most people) who need approval/protection from “Mommy”. Trying to appeal to people who don’t get it is a waste of time. I mean has the last 30+ years of GOP politics not been proof enough? We need more of what’s already failed time and time again?

The messaging couldn’t be more elegant and succinct – all humans enjoy a natural right to defend themselves. This isn’t controversial and it’s a gigantic waste of fucking time trying to package this to people who will never get it.

I’m sure we have forum members covering every possible demographic imaginable. There is no “special” messaging or treatment needed to reach anyone here. Our human rights are self-evident.

On a side note, go fuck yourselves with the “old white guy” comments. There are still quite a few hard as nails old white guys around who risked everything to preserve the freedoms we enjoy today. It must be very traumatizing to see the levels of degeneracy and weakness we’ve sunk to.

Don’t expect any respect from me if for some inexplicable reason that’s the one demographic you feel safe attacking. Really bold stand there.