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View Full Version : Still thinking about a J frame...



CCT125US
02-28-2012, 06:00 PM
So I have been thinking about picking up a J frame for some time now. I feel it would enhance my students learning and show a wider variety of options to them. I also do not own a revolver, which is kind of criminal. I have a slightly used G26 with NS that never ever gets shot as well as a Sig C3 1911. I think a straight up trade would fly with the LGS for either one. The 1911 was purchased for the same reason I am trying to justify the J frame.... Everyone needs a 1911 right..... yeah, not so much. So the question is which pistol should I think about trading? The only potential problem that some will undoubetly point out is that I would need to stock an additional caliber. Not so much of a problem as my father loads for .38, so no issue there. Thoughts?

Kyle Reese
02-28-2012, 06:01 PM
No question about it, sell / trade the Sig C3 & use the funds for a J Frame & ammunition.

bofe954
02-28-2012, 07:11 PM
J frame should be in the $350-$400 range. I would think a straight trade for a C3 would be a pretty ugly deal for you.

If you have a local forum I would guess someone would give you a 642/442 and couple hundred bucks for a C3.

tjbeck
02-28-2012, 07:29 PM
J frame should be in the $350-$400 range. I would think a straight trade for a C3 would be a pretty ugly deal for you.

If you have a local forum I would guess someone would give you a 642/442 and couple hundred bucks for a C3.

I used to trade my guns in at the LGS and didn't realize how bad the deals were until I sold an unwanted gun through a forum. This is a much better way to go and you will get far more bang for your buck. For example Bud's would give you $475 (maybe more at an LGS but, probably not much) for the C3, or you could put it on a forum for 700 or a J-frame and cash. Just my .02, and I don't think you need a 1911, you either want one or you don't.

TNWNGR
02-28-2012, 09:45 PM
If your going with a J Frame as a teaching tool an all steel M-36 or M-60 might serve your need's better than an alloy framed model. Also, don't rule out the Ruger SP-101 for learning to use a revolver, it's weight make's a big difference in shooting a lot of rounds. I'm a S&W J frame fan but Ruger has impressed me with the LCR and SP-101.

TCinVA
02-29-2012, 08:16 AM
If I was buying a small revolver for teaching or to use as a loaner gun, I'd go with a steel gun as well.

LSP972
02-29-2012, 08:39 AM
If I was buying a small revolver for teaching or to use as a loaner gun, I'd go with a steel gun as well.

Absolutely. I have been carrying one sort of J frame or another, every day, since 1978. Sometimes for back-up, sometimes for primary (only, but those days are over with), but always.

The AirWeights and AirLites are NOT fun to shoot, and in fact can intimidate the heck out of a new shooter. I had to qualify with them at least once a year, sometimes more. In 1992, I scored a M-640 to use for that purpose; I was carrying a new-issue M-642; and haven't looked back. I still use that M-640 to practice with.

Purists, of course, scoff at this sort of thing, insisting one MUST use the same gun/same load to get any meaningful training out of a practice session. BS. I even know a few of this type of guy... and I shoot a lot more than they do.

Anyway, the steel gun is definitely the smart move for a trainer/demo piece. The difference in recoil between it and an alloy (AirWeight) gun is substantial. The difference between it and a scandium (AirLite) gun is startling.

.

JHC
02-29-2012, 06:23 PM
I no longer currently own a j frame but I'm thinking hard about a LCR instead if I'm to fill that small niche.

LSP972
03-06-2012, 08:46 AM
My mother selected an LCR as her "house gun" after my dad passed. She liked the way it fit her hand better than any of the others we tried.

I was somewhat underwhelmed with her choice, but it was HER choice. I put 100 rounds of standard pressure target ammunition through it, and ten JHPs, as a reliability check. No problems, of course (it IS a Ruger, after all), but it "loosened up" considerably. I'm referring to the fit between the yoke and the frame, cylinder lock-up, etc. The gun still works; but it rattles when you shake it.

Another thing... I read all these folks waxing euphoric about the DA trigger. Its nothing special. Definitely a bit lighter than your average J frame, but certainly not any smoother. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all of that, I suppose...

Add all of this to the fact that the LCR is measurably a bit larger than a non-magnum J frame, and color me not impressed. I will certainly admit to a bit of bias toward J frames, but facts are still facts. I'm not concerned, because the next time that gun is fired will be if she has to use it, and I have no doubt it will work at that time. But the fact that it became quite loose after 100 wadcutters makes me wonder...

FWIW, I am more "not impressed" with S&W's polymer frame snubby revolver. Jeez, what an abortion THAT is.

Yet, I carry a plastic semi-auto, so I have nothing against polymer per se.

I suppose my point to all of this is, unless you just WANT the features of the LCR, you'll probably be better off with a standard non-magnum J frame.

.

motorjon68
03-06-2012, 09:45 AM
The LCR feels better because it has a bigger grip. The jframe is durable as hell. I agree that you should go all steel as a loaner. My 642 isn't fun. I shoot it because it is a tool that I use. I shoot my other stuff for fun.

JHC
03-06-2012, 10:02 AM
Good info LSP! Thanks.

LSP972
03-07-2012, 08:46 AM
The LCR feels better because it has a bigger grip.

Ya think???? I tried numerous "bigger" stocks with her on J frames; she just preferred the shape of those Goodyears on the LCR.

.

jrm
03-07-2012, 10:54 AM
My dad has an LCR and I have serious issues short stroking the trigger that I never had with a J frame. It has what I would describe has a staged reset the trigger lets out ~95% of the way with a strong return spring and click then the last ~5% is much lighter and much less distinct. But, if it doesn't go out all the way it doesn't go bang. I would recommend losing contact with the trigger between shots to ensure functioning but even more I would recommend a J Frame although, I will say that the grips on the LCR feel good and absorb recoil better.

FotoTomas
03-14-2012, 08:58 AM
I am a "J" frame fan and believe everyone should have at least one. I currently have two. The 638 Bodyguard is my primary pocket rocket when I pack wheelies and the older 36 Chiefs Special is the backup/training/loaner.

I have done a lot of trading in the last 40 years and am quite happy with what I have in hand now. I consider a Glock 26 and a 1911 flavor to also be guns worth having even if not your primary tools. Add in a S&W K frame like my Model 19 Combat Magnum and those four would keep me happy for the rest of my life. :)

Get a "J" for fun and training and if you HAVE to sell or trade try not to get screwed by the local dealers. They need to make a profit but also seem to revell at getting a trade in at obscenely cheap prices.

Tamara
03-14-2012, 10:56 AM
If your going with a J Frame as a teaching tool an all steel M-36 or M-60 might serve your need's better than an alloy framed model.

I have a 4" Model 31-1 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/09/sunday-smith-16-model-31-1-1971.html) that I keep specifically because it's an ideal "next step" from rimfires for a learner. (Also it's just plain fun to shoot. ;))

Mitchell, Esq.
03-14-2012, 11:02 AM
The LCR feels better because it has a bigger grip. The jframe is durable as hell. I agree that you should go all steel as a loaner. My 642 isn't fun. I shoot it because it is a tool that I use. I shoot my other stuff for fun.

Just be aware that they don't last forever.

My M-49 is currently a dry-fire gun only, as it's out of time due to the amount of dry practice I do with it.

Sometime it rotates...sometimes not.

Drew78
04-11-2012, 06:22 PM
I have 2 LCR's. the .38 and .357 versions. About 850 rounds through each with no issues.

I had the fortune of being able to evaluate the 38 LCR and the SW 642 for about 1 month prior to deciding and purchasing my own. I will say in all candor, I wanted to like the Smith J frame, I had made up my mind before even shooting it that it was the winner but forced my self to try to be objective with the LCR and give it a fair shake.

I put A LOT of rounds though each of my eval guns and long story short, I shot significantly better with the LCR. I was even using the LG 305's ( the BIG grips)on the J frame as compared to the LCR CT grips.

My only gripe about the LCR is that the trigger return spring is not as strong as the J frame. But the trigger is so smooth its almost like cheating to shoot the LCR.

I am actually looking to unload my LCR in .38 as I would keep the .357, I dont need 2 of them...

Just my experiences.

ford.304
04-12-2012, 07:05 AM
Another thing... I read all these folks waxing euphoric about the DA trigger. Its nothing special. Definitely a bit lighter than your average J frame, but certainly not any smoother. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all of that, I suppose...

.

I'm not sure the LCR is supposed to have an amazing trigger when compared to a Smith. It's just that it is light years better than any of Ruger's other revolvers, and therefore at least competitive with your standard J-Frame.

TGS
04-12-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm not sure the LCR is supposed to have an amazing trigger when compared to a Smith. It's just that it is light years better than any of Ruger's other revolvers, and therefore at least competitive with your standard J-Frame.

My experience of hanging around random gun forums was that the LCR's trigger blew an Airweight S&W away.

My first personal experience was renting the two, in which the LCR was hundreds of times a more shootable gun. It was my first time shooting either. I actually brought the J-frame out to the counter and asked the staff if the J-frame's trigger was broken or incredibly dirty. They fiddled with it and said, "nope, that's about average."

I ended up buying a 642-1 anyway because of a good price on a used piece. After putting it through its paces, the trigger smoothed out considerably, but the LCR's I had fired/played with were still light years better.......with that effecting my results on paper as well.

So fast forward to today....you can buy an Apex trigger kit for the J-frame at a modest price. But in order to have boot grips that makes an Airweight J as enjoyable (read: tolerable) to shoot and practice with as the LCR, you're going to need the LG-405's from crimson trace which could pay for another revolver in itself. Plus, with a factory LCR you can get a proper front sight which makes a world of difference in effectiveness........all at half the price of a similarly equipped J-frame.

Even as someone who hasn't committed to buying an LCR, and instead bought a Smith......I'm a complete LCR fanboy. An LCR in .32 H&R would be a sweet little piece.

TGS
04-12-2012, 03:44 PM
I was somewhat underwhelmed with her choice, but it was HER choice. I put 100 rounds of standard pressure target ammunition through it, and ten JHPs, as a reliability check. No problems, of course (it IS a Ruger, after all), but it "loosened up" considerably. I'm referring to the fit between the yoke and the frame, cylinder lock-up, etc. The gun still works; but it rattles when you shake it.

I did a short amount of googling and came upon this (http://rugerforum.net/ruger-double-action/24421-lcr-38-spcl-roundcount.html) thread on rugerforum.net. Anyone interested about the longevity of the LCR should appreciate the thread. A person by the name of DPris talks about a sample he ran 5700 rounds through, with 5100 of those being +p duty loads.

He brings up a valid point......if you want to run a lot of rounds through it, do so with wadcutters or buy the .357 version. It's a couple ounces heavier (17oz vs 13), but is made with a steel upper frame instead of aluminum.

How does the longevity of an Airweight J-frame compare? How loose/stretched would they be after 5100 +p rounds?

CCT125US
04-12-2012, 04:12 PM
TGS... that is a very good question and would speak to the life expectancy of parts. And I am still thinking about that J frame BTW

LSP972
04-13-2012, 08:08 AM
How does the longevity of an Airweight J-frame compare? How loose/stretched would they be after 5100 +p rounds?

Depends on which iteration of the J frame you're talking about.

The pre-1995 AirWeights (alloy frame/yoke, steel cylinder) are wildly variant; I've seen one start stretching the frame after 100 rounds, and I know of another one with several thousand standard pressure 158 RNL rounds though it that is still nice and tight. I much prefer the pre-95 frame geometry, but the two I have of those in AirWeight configuration don't get shot any more. The steel guns, of course, are fine. A much-abused M-640, purchased in 1993, is my main "shooter".

The post-95 guns, with the so-called "magnum" frame, should last a good long while. S&W claims that the Scandium-framed examples rated for full-house .357 are good for 5K of those. I have one of these, an M-360PD purchased in 2002, that has been carried daily for most of the intervening ten years, and has had well over 4K .38 Special rounds through it. Most of those rounds have either been wadcutters or other standard-pressure .38s, but several hundred have been my +P Gold Dot carry cartridge. Oh, and I shot a dozen .357s through it when it was new. Imagine holding out your open hand, and allowing Babe Ruth to take a full power swing with his Louisville slugger; your palm being his target. Shooting full-house .357 ammunition through a 12-ounce small revolver is something that can only be fully appreciated by doing it. It also gives new meaning to the phrase "Never again!"...;)

Sorry; I tend to ramble. The short answer to your question is that a post-95 J frame should have all the durability one needs. I don't shoot that 360PD much these days, because it really isn't much fun, and as I edge past 60 I find myself much less tolerant of recoil. The steel M-640 is much more pleasant to train with.

But I'll tell you this; for pocket carry, NOTHING beats an AirLite J frame in my book. You simply forget its there. I'm speaking of the Scandium frame examples with a titanium cylinder. Not sure what the model designations are these days. I have two; that M-360PD, and an M-342 without the lock that is my prize.

And again, the post-95 guns, regardless of what they're made of (steel, aluminum alloy, or Scandium) are all rated for +P (or .357) and are definitely more durable than earlier AirWeight/alloy-framed examples.

.

lamarbrog
04-20-2012, 12:47 AM
From what I have seen the Ruger LCR and the S&W 642 both have what may as well be an infinite life.

Each have been on the rental wall for over a year, and neither one has had any parts breakages that I am aware of. They get shot plenty, are rarely cleaned, and people abuse them. Considering most people, even fairly serious shooters, don't typically rack up high round counts on these little guys I'd not be concerned recommending one to anyone.

Now, for the comfort of the students you might seek a steel frame... but I doubt you'll wear out an LCR or a 642 substantially faster than a steel framed counterpart. (Honestly, I kind of doubt you'll wear one out at all.)

CDR_Glock
04-22-2012, 09:40 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about durability in YOUR lifetime. These guns will outlast you. Most things can be fixed and some small adjustments or parts may be necessary over its lifespan of a couple of generations.

TGS
04-22-2012, 02:58 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about durability in YOUR lifetime. These guns will outlast you. Most things can be fixed and some small adjustments or parts may be necessary over its lifespan of a couple of generations.

Do you have more than that?

Round counts are much more informative than saying "my/your lifetime" or "outlast you."

Some people shoot more than others. A Hi-Point will live through the average shooters "lifetime." They wouldn't last two range sessions with 99% of this forum's membership. An LCR will outlast most shooters out there, but with not only measurable but noticeable frame stretching over 5800 rounds, I highly doubt it would last a lifetime for some of the members here. An Airweight J-frame will <insert specific knowledge here>......

CCT125US
07-02-2012, 10:18 PM
Well I went ahead and ordered that J-Frame from http://crosscreekguns.com/index.html. I went with the no-lock version. Looks like Smith is currently out of stock, so not sure when it will show up. Planning on renting one again tomorrow and putting some more rounds downrange.

ford.304
07-03-2012, 07:06 AM
Do you have more than that?

Round counts are much more informative than saying "my/your lifetime" or "outlast you."

Some people shoot more than others. A Hi-Point will live through the average shooters "lifetime." They wouldn't last two range sessions with 99% of this forum's membership. An LCR will outlast most shooters out there, but with not only measurable but noticeable frame stretching over 5800 rounds, I highly doubt it would last a lifetime for some of the members here. An Airweight J-frame will <insert specific knowledge here>......

My hand aches just thinking about putting 6,000 rounds through an airweight.

LSP972
07-03-2012, 10:43 AM
A Hi-Point will live through the average shooters "lifetime." They wouldn't last two range sessions with 99% of this forum's membership. ...

I had to put together a firearm's examiner proficiency test last year for 25 people. This involved shooting 500 rounds of 9mm ball through a HiPoint C9, using five different slides (for the different breech face markings), 100 rounds per slide. The barrel is fixed to the frame on these, as you probably know. We weren't using the bullets, just the brass, so that didn't matter.

What is germane here is that, after 500 rounds through the same barrel, that sucker was a SMOOTH BORE. The gun was brand new when I began, and I kept the first and last bullets fished out of the water tank. Comparing those two was quite enlightening.

It was still working, though. I had only two malfunctions the entire time. I wanted to get out to the square range and shoot it at 25 yards to see what the "accuracy" would be with the rifling all but gone. Alas, the gun and slides were a loaner from HiPoint and had to go back before I could do this.

Moral of the story... HiPoints are made from pot metal... including the barrel. But they generally are reliable, and have killed a lot of folks. Although the S&W Sigma is becoming the thug gun of choice around here, I cannot tell you how many homicide cases we've processed involving HiPoints in the three years I've been here; but its a bunch.

.

motorjon68
07-10-2012, 08:03 PM
I just put an Apex kit in my 642. Mucho better. Not hair-trigger at all but more controlable. Very happy! I watched the how-to videos on Youtube.