.500 S&W lever-action rifle

[peterb]

If bigger is better......:)

I just saw an article in the fall 2018 issue of Outdoor Life about a lever-action rifle in .500 S&W. The author claims that it picks up 400 fps in the 18-inch barrel compared to the 10.5-inch revolver, based on his own chronograph tests.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-89-carbine-18inch-500-sandw-2/

[Bigghoss]

That's a gorgeous rifle but I can't swing $2500. I'll have to settle for .45-70 if I need that kind of power.

[RevolverRob]

30659

[willie]

My Henry lever action .44 Mag has hefty recoil with factory ammo. This lightweight rifle in 500 S&W would hurt. As already stated get a heavier 45-70.

[RevolverRob]

My Henry lever action .44 Mag has hefty recoil with factory ammo. This lightweight rifle in 500 S&W would hurt. As already stated get a heavier 45-70.

The Big Horn Model 89 weights 7lbs 10oz. A Marlin 1895G (guide gun) weighs 7 lbs flat.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I’d use it. I like guns that beat the crap out of my shoulder.


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[willie]

Looking at Sportsman's Warehouse, I see a listing of Marlin 45-70 rifles in a chart. One version weighs 7.5 lbs and two weigh 8 lbs, but most do weigh 7 lbs. Sherman, I owned a Win Model 70 in 458 Win Mag and would develop a headache after firing it 6 or 7 times with factory ammo.
Recoil was bouncing my brain around inside my cranium. And I used to shoot a short barrel 10 ga pump shotgun with buckshot and slugs. All these were fun activties but not anymore.

[hufnagel]

If Henry makes one in single shot, I'll buy it.:D

[Hambo]

If Henry makes one in single shot, I'll buy it.:D

No need to wait. This is right up your alley.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interchangeable-platforms/encore-pro-hunter/encore-pro-hunter-katahdin

[BillSWPA]

I suggest caution with guns that beat up one’s shoulder. I have read about detached retinas being more common in people who regularly shoot guns that beat up their shoulders.



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[Hambo]

I suggest caution with guns that beat up one’s shoulder. I have read about detached retinas being more common in people who regularly shoot guns that beat up their shoulders.

I'll take the risk.

[hufnagel]

No need to wait. This is right up your alley.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interchangeable-platforms/encore-pro-hunter/encore-pro-hunter-katahdin

I'll wait. I want a Henry. :D

[LittleLebowski]

Cool, but I'd still rather a .460 S&W, though I'm told it would need a BLR action in order to handle the power.

[RevolverRob]

Cool, but I'd still rather a .460 S&W, though I'm told it would need a BLR action in order to handle the power.

You mean this one?

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-90-carbine-18inch-bbl-460-sandw-model-90a-454-casull-model-90b45-colt-6/

I mean...do I have to say it? :eek:

[LittleLebowski]

You mean this one?

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-90-carbine-18inch-bbl-460-sandw-model-90a-454-casull-model-90b45-colt-6/

I mean...do I have to say it? :eek:

Is gorgeous.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I'll take the risk.

I play rugby too. And stick my hands into the gaping maw’s of HIV and hepatitis patients daily. And patrol meth/pill ridden suburban areas...

Shooting large calibre rifles is probably one of the lower risk activities I do.


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[RevolverRob]

I play rugby too. And stick my hands into the gaping maw’s of HIV and hepatitis patients daily. And patrol meth/pill ridden suburban areas...

Shooting large calibre rifles is probably one of the lower risk activities I do.


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You need a hobby.

Most dentists play golf and/or have a mistress. Both of those sound safer than your current life choices.

[willie]

Some enjoy their own laughing gas too. Is that stuff addictive?

[willie]

You mean this one?

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-90-carbine-18inch-bbl-460-sandw-model-90a-454-casull-model-90b45-colt-6/

I mean...do I have to say it? :eek:

For a younger outdoorsman with coin, this rifle--despite its cost--would be a good investment. It would serve admirably as a lifelong companion whenever a short powerful rifle was needed. The action is not solid frame but is open at the top as are 92's and 94's. The rear sight rests on the bolt and thus moves with it. If I were ordering one, I would ask that the receiver be drilled and tapped for an old school Redfield peep sight. That's a preference and not condemnation of the factory's sight on the bolt.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

You need a hobby.

Most dentists play golf and/or have a mistress. Both of those sound safer than your current life choices.

Golf is a waste of a perfectly good rugby pitch. My wife is 1000x hotter than the most badass mistress you can think of.

Nitrous oxide/oxygen IS psychologically addictive but has a wicked side effect of causing peripheral neuropathy. I’ve had nitrous twice in my life...once when I got my wisdom teeth out and once in school when we had to practice on each other. It makes me horribly nauseous and dizzy, which makes me vomit. I don’t drink either...and Coke Zero is about as raucous as I get.

I’m probably not like any dentist you know.


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[OlongJohnson]

What would a .460 S&W lever gun do that a .444 Marlin lever gun wouldn't?

[GJM]

Quick comment on retina issues. I spent years shooting heavy caliber rifles to .458 Lott and .460 G&A. At a Randy Cain AK class about six or seven years ago, I shot a bazillion rounds of 7.62x39 out of an uncomfortable stocked AK. The first night, I had flashes in my right eye. Checked when I got home and fine, although told the flashes may be a precursor to a torn retina. Then a year later, woke up in our remote cabin 100 miles from town, with a torn retina in my right eye. Really took a year to get through, required a special issuance FAA medical, and I still have floaters in that eye. Retina issues are no fun, and I suspect but can’t prove decades of recoil contributed to this for me.

[BillSWPA]

Building on GJM’s post, it is too easy to fail to really see you are doing damage until the damage is done and is difficult or impossible to fix. Other examples would include Rex G’s hands from shooting high caliber handguns, and my own knees from 30’years of running while failing to realize that my arches were collapsing, messing up the ability of my feet to properly do their job and support my knees.

Not saying not to do what you enjoy or not to take risks. Just be aware and proceed carefully.



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[farscott]

While "because it is cool" is a good answer, I am struggling to see why I would choose a .460 S&W or .500 S&W instead of a .35 Remington Marlin 336 or .45-70 Marlin 1895. The latter have a benefit of being much less expensive and are well proven.

[mtnbkr]

While "because it is cool" is a good answer, I am struggling to see why I would choose a .460 S&W or .500 S&W instead of a .35 Remington Marlin 336 or .45-70 Marlin 1895. The latter have a benefit of being much less expensive and well proven.

Agree. Though, I could see a 460 if you already had a 45Colt or 454Casull as the non-brass components would be the same. While I haven't looked into it, I bet you could even load 460 using 45Colt dies (might not fully size the brass down to the bottom though). For similar reasons, I'd be inclined to try 445Supermag if I wanted more punch without buying more reloading gear and components.

Otherwise, yeah, a 45-70 would work just as well and you can buy ammo at WalMart if necessary.

Chris

[LittleLebowski]

Why can't I have a cool dentist that shoots? :(

[LittleLebowski]

What would a .460 S&W lever gun do that a .444 Marlin lever gun wouldn't?

Share ammo with your backup pistol, duh :cool:

[mtnbkr]

Share ammo with your backup pistol, duh :cool:

30739

[OlongJohnson]

Share ammo with your backup pistol, duh :cool:

Well, that's why I have an 1894 and not a 444.

But even there, the best all-around bullet for the long gun is probably different than the best all-around bullet for the one with a spinny magazine.

[Bigghoss]

Share ammo with your backup pistol, duh :cool:


https://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr-big-frame-revolver/

[Hambo]

I’m probably not like any dentist you know.

That's good, because I've never wanted to hang with any dentists I've known. The fact that you want a .500 makes you 1000x cooler than any dentist I've met.

About mistresses:
-Never screw around with anyone who has less to lose than you do.
-Avoid any relationship with a crazy woman.
-Never shit where you eat.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

That's good, because I've never wanted to hang with any dentists I've known. The fact that you want a .500 makes you 1000x cooler than any dentist I've met.

About mistresses:
-Never screw around with anyone who has less to lose than you do.
-Avoid any relationship with a crazy woman.
-Never shit where you eat.

You and me both!

I steer clear of mistresses all together.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180927/cb5e6b037788b5ec841b2d2d3ea11d88.jpg


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[theJanitor]

I'll take the risk.

Having lost both retinas, and only regaining marginal vision in only one of them, I'd advise everyone everyone to reassess "risk". 5.56 is the only rifle caliber I'll shoot now......with a good muzzle brake.

[Hambo]

The following factors increase your risk of retinal detachment:

Aging — retinal detachment is more common in people over age 50
Previous retinal detachment in one eye
A family history of retinal detachment
Extreme nearsightedness (myopia)
Previous eye surgery, such as cataract removal
Previous severe eye injury
Previous other eye disease or inflammation


You don't have to be a shooter to have a detached retina. Let's not overstate the risk involved in shooting.

[theJanitor]

You don't have to be a shooter to have a detached retina. Let's not overstate the risk involved in shooting.

I'm certain my detachments weren't from shooting. But being blind is scary as f*ck.

[GJM]

You don't have to be a shooter to have a detached retina. Let's not overstate the risk involved in shooting.

In my case, age over 50 was the only risk factor I had from that list. Given the flashes in that same eye, that started during the Cain AK class, I feel that long gun shooting was related.

[BillSWPA]

You don't have to be a shooter to have a detached retina. Let's not overstate the risk involved in shooting.

The years ago, that is exactly what I would have said about running and knee issues.



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[Jeep]

I’d use it. I like guns that beat the crap out of my shoulder.


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Wait a few more years. My shoulder is now so bad I can no longer throw a baseball. Only part of that is due to recoil, but . . . .

[RevolverRob]

All good things must be done with moderation.

From shooting cannons or doing cocaine - moderation is key.

I’m not that big on “heavy recoil” on a personal level. But I don’t mind shooting big guns for fun once in a while. There is a real difference between shooting a .458 Lott everyday and shooting one once a year. Twelve gauge shotguns with full power buck and slugs are my only regular “high recoil” guns. And I don’t find thise difficult with push-pull.

I’m more concerned with extending my hearing loss and getting more tinnitus at this point that vision problems from shooting long-guns.

But then again - I’ll all about the pistol-caliber carbines from .22 to .500.

[mtnbkr]

I’m more concerned with extending my hearing loss and getting more tinnitus at this point that vision problems from shooting long-guns.

I'm not particularly recoil sensitive and can spend all day shooting my Encore 35Whelen with full power 250gr loads, but I've been concerned about the muzzle blast of that little canon. It's a 17" barrel, which emits much sturm und drang when I pull the trigger. While I thought I'd use it for hunting, I've since decided my 308 provides all the hunting power I need for Virginia and have restricted the 35w to range toy status. I simply can't imagine pulling the trigger on that thing in the field with little or no ear protection.

I kind of hate that I got such a good deal on the barrel because it's really too short to take full advantage of the 35Whelen cartridge (not to mention the noise). I've been tempted to sell it and put the funds toward a longer version. But if I do that, maybe I should get something else altogether (such as a shoulder and ear friendly 357max). Due to decision paralysis, I've done nothing. :rolleyes:

Chris

[Hambo]

I'm not particularly recoil sensitive and can spend all day shooting my Encore 35Whelen with full power 250gr loads, but I've been concerned about the muzzle blast of that little canon. It's a 17" barrel, which emits much sturm und drang when I pull the trigger. While I thought I'd use it for hunting, I've since decided my 308 provides all the hunting power I need for Virginia and have restricted the 35w to range toy status. I simply can't imagine pulling the trigger on that thing in the field with little or no ear protection.

I kind of hate that I got such a good deal on the barrel because it's really too short to take full advantage of the 35Whelen cartridge (not to mention the noise). I've been tempted to sell it and put the funds toward a longer version. But if I do that, maybe I should get something else altogether (such as a shoulder and ear friendly 357max). Due to decision paralysis, I've done nothing. :rolleyes:

Chris

Nothing is ear friendly. I hunt with electronics on, and wear plugs and muffs on any range. I'm tapped at the moment, but if you decide to dump the Whelen barrel keep me in mind. I never met a .35 anything I didn't like. My .358 Win barrel is exactly 16", so in an abundance of caution I use it as a pistol only.

[mtnbkr]

Nothing is ear friendly. I hunt with electronics on, and wear plugs and muffs on any range. I'm tapped at the moment, but if you decide to dump the Whelen barrel keep me in mind. I never met a .35 anything I didn't like. My .358 Win barrel is exactly 16", so in an abundance of caution I use it as a pistol only.

I didn't intend to suggest otherwise. However, my 35whelen is noticeably louder than my other rifles even with doubled hearing protection (the only way I'll shoot any rifle bigger than 22lr at the range). It's loud enough that I get "comments" at the range. I've tried hunting with electronic ear pro, but find it distracting.

I'll keep you in mind!

Chris

[Wheeler]

A lever action .500 is about as practical as a Roland Special, maybe more so.

[GJM]

A consideration is the SAMMI pressure for the .500 is about twice that for the .45-70 as loaded by Garrett. Lever guns are not known for handling the same pressure, as say a bolt.

[Wheeler]

A consideration is the SAMMI pressure for the .500 is about twice that for the .45-70 as loaded by Garrett. Lever guns are not known for handling the same pressure, as say a bolt.

Is the chamber and receiver of a lever action less capable of handling 60k PSI than the cylinder of a revolver? How about a Handi-Rifle?

[mtnbkr]

Is the chamber and receiver of a lever action less capable of handling 60k PSI than the cylinder of a revolver? How about a Handi-Rifle?

Based on what I've read, yes. Also, S&W did come up with a new revolver size just for the 500. As the 500S&W has been known to stretch Encore frames, I suspect it would be rough on the Handi-Rifle as well.

Chris

[Wheeler]

Based on what I've read, yes. Also, S&W did come up with a new revolver size just for the 500. As the 500S&W has been known to stretch Encore frames, I suspect it would be rough on the Handi-Rifle as well.

Chris

And yet both are chambered in that caliber. I mean you can buy a Savage 99 and Winchester 88 chambered in .308. Care to take a wild stab at what the max pressure is for that cartridge? ;) On top of that, the .454 Casull exceeds 60K PSI as well and had been chambered in several single shot rifles and can be purchased in a a Winchester 92 clone made by Rossi.

I suspect S&W came up with a new revolver frame because the N frame just isn't beefy enough. You can buy .44 Mag Buffalo Bore ammo that specifically states to NOT use in the 29/629 series. I'm not sure of your sources but would love to take a look at them if you wouldn't mind sharing them.

[mtnbkr]

And yet both are chambered in that caliber. I mean you can buy a Savage 99 and Winchester 88 chambered in .308. Care to take a wild stab at what the max pressure is for that cartridge? ;) On top of that, the .454 Casull exceeds 60K PSI as well and had been chambered in several single shot rifles and can be purchased in a a Winchester 92 clone made by Rossi.

I suspect S&W came up with a new revolver frame because the N frame just isn't beefy enough. You can buy .44 Mag Buffalo Bore ammo that specifically states to NOT use in the 29/629 series. I'm not sure of your sources but would love to take a look at them if you wouldn't mind sharing them.

Two words: Bolt Thrust.

Besides pressure, case head diameter is a factor. The case head of the 500 is larger than the other cartridges you mention, which is why those with similar pressures deliver less thrust. Bolt Thrust for the 500 is greater than the 44mag, 454Casull, and a number of rifle cartridges including the 308. This is why the 45-70 can stretch a TC Contender (Encore's smaller brother) while the 30-30 is typically safe. While guns may be chambered in the 500, it doesn't mean those guns will have a long life. I forget where I read it, but a number of break-action single shot shooters steer clear of cartridges like the 500 for this reason.

As for sources, they're scattered all over the gunternet and various publications. This is probably the best single source for measurements regarding bolt thrust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_thrust

This site gives you max SAAMI pressures: http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

You can look up case-head diameters on a per cartridge basis.

Chris

[Wheeler]

Two words: Bolt Thrust.

Besides pressure, case head diameter is a factor. The case head of the 500 is larger than the other cartridges you mention, which is why those with similar pressures deliver less thrust. Bolt Thrust for the 500 is greater than the 44mag, 454Casull, and a number of rifle cartridges including the 308. This is why the 45-70 can stretch a TC Contender (Encore's smaller brother) while the 30-30 is typically safe. While guns may be chambered in the 500, it doesn't mean those guns will have a long life. I forget where I read it, but a number of break-action single shot shooters steer clear of cartridges like the 500 for this reason.

As for sources, they're scattered all over the gunternet and various publications. This is probably the best single source for measurements regarding bolt thrust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_thrust

This site gives you max SAAMI pressures: http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

You can look up case-head diameters on a per cartridge basis.

Chris

I'll readily admit that I have never heard of Bolt Thrust prior to this conversation. Thanks for the info. I'm still curious if there's any data or anecdotal examples of the lever actions having problems with the .500 cartridge. As far as I know, those aren't mass produced rifles but semi bespoke offerings from small custom shops. I'd suspect that the use of modern materials would help with strengthening the actions.

This is all speculation on my part of course.

[willie]

Metallurgy to include proper heat treating criteria ideally would match or exceed requirements for rifles chambered for rounds with high bolt thrust. For example, some report that lower quality lever action Rossi(Taurus)1892 clones chambered for .454 Casull are made on a separate line using metallurgy to handle this round in an action not considered strong.

[mtnbkr]

I'll readily admit that I have never heard of Bolt Thrust prior to this conversation. Thanks for the info. I'm still curious if there's any data or anecdotal examples of the lever actions having problems with the .500 cartridge. As far as I know, those aren't mass produced rifles but semi bespoke offerings from small custom shops. I'd suspect that the use of modern materials would help with strengthening the actions.

This is all speculation on my part of course.

To be honest, I don't know. We're speculating based on what has been observed with production guns. I suspect there aren't a lot of these guns out there and the ones that are in the wild don't get shot a lot, so there won't be many (any?) reports of premature wear or outright failure. Of course, upgraded materials may also mitigate the risk.


Metallurgy to include proper heat treating criteria ideally would match or exceed requirements for rifles chambered for rounds with high bolt thrust. For example, some report that lower quality lever action Rossi(Taurus)1892 clones chambered for .454 Casull are made on a separate line using metallurgy to handle this round in an action not considered strong.
Entire possible this is the case. I don't know enough about gun engineering to know if a materials change will offset the physical design.

Chris