Which Manufacturer is next on the “P365” train?

[Polecat]

If ya can’t beat ‘em join ‘em. Who will come out with their cocept of the P365 next?

I was a bit a nasayer in the beginning, but finally broke down, so far nice little gun, and I understand the draw.

[Sal Picante]

Wish someone would do a small DA/SA gat in 9.

[HCountyGuy]

If ya can’t beat ‘em join ‘em. Who will come out with their cocept of the P365 next?

I was a bit a nasayer in the beginning, but finally broke down, so far nice little gun, and I understand the draw.

Not sure I follow. Who’s trying to copy the 365?

[spinmove_]

Wish someone would do a small DA/SA gat in 9.

You mean like the XD-E?


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[OlongJohnson]

nm...

[leathermaneod]

With all the problems plaguing the P365, I’m not sure I’d trust anything else like it for a while. Not convinced it is a concept that works very well. I’m more than happy with my G43. It would be interesting to see something that size in da/sa though. The XD-E doesn’t really work for me because it’s and xd, and it has a safety rather than just decocker.


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[revchuck38]

Wish someone would do a small DA/SA gat in 9.

Walther P99C too big?

[Polecat]

Walther P99C too big?

Put it next to a P365. Honestly, that’s what made me give in. That and my friend bought one of recent manufacture lately and it had been flawless. I saw it laying next to G43 and thought my God, that is small! Long story short, went and shot their rental for 100 rounds, came back in bought it and went back for another 100 flawless rounds throught the new one. It was crazy accurate, stone cold reliable, but remain wary as the early failures with higher round counts.

It does make you think “why am I carrying something bigger with less firepower?” Currently carry my G43 with +2.

[revchuck38]

Good point, I didn't even think of the P365 due to the reported issues with it.

[kitten_frenzy]

I'm going to guess Ruger... then maybe S&W.
In 500 years, Glock will come out with something comparable.

There really is nothing else on the market quite like the P365 when you get one that works. It's a shame Sig is...well, Sig.

[octagon]

The weird thing about the Sig P365 is that all most all the issues it has are not related to the magazine which is the unique part of it. It basically is the same size,caliber,frame material and striker fired gun as a Glock 43 yet holds 10 rounds instead of 6. The modular frame design hasn't been optimized at all, the striker/firing design is nothing special for function or feel compared to it's competition. It isn't significantly smaller,lighter or otherwise that different than it's competitors. It really is just packaging 10 rounds in a package almost the same size as everyone else packaging 6-7 rounds. That is all magazine which seems to be working fine.

Since Glock uses polymer mags I doubt they will ever get close to the capacity and slimness. S&W already uses a not quite double stack not quite single stack mag design in their Shields so I would guess they may be the first to try of the big manufacturers.

[Duelist]

I predict that George Kelgren will introduce a 5.6” long, 3.1” barrel, 1” thick double stack polymer grip module 9mm (available in colors) that weighs 15oz unloaded, and holds 10/12 rounds.






In 1995.

[Nod]

KelTec and SCCY had a 10+1 double stack compact 9mm out years ago. Both are good pistols. Seems that Sig copied them.

[LockedBreech]

I have held the P365 next to my Shield 2.0 and my friend's G43. It is indeed impressive. 10+1 versus 6+1 and 7+1.

My issue is that I do not trust it, plain and simple.

Glock and Smith are smart companies with major R&D budgets and and talented employees. For the past 5-ish years I've held them unquestionably over Sig in terms of quality control and design proofing.

Frankly, I think if there was a way to make a 10+1 gun that size that was reliable and durable over time, they wouldn't be the only game in town to have done it. With all the reported P365 problems, I think they'll eventually share the rep of the Ruger LCP (which, to be fair, I own two of) as a relatively low round count gun unless you want to start having parts breakages.

I'd rather have the Shield, which has some field time on it and is robust enough to give me some confidence.

There's no doubt that the 365 is a remarkable achievement in size and grip comfort for that capacity, but I'm a long way from trusting one.

[beenalongtime]

The weird thing about the Sig P365 is that all most all the issues it has are not related to the magazine which is the unique part of it.

The unique part, that also has some patents on it (who wants to "copy" it or reengineer it and then spend money in court).

[tcba_joe]

SIG should have applied that mag to the P320 (yes I realized it was developed after). But imagine how much ammo you could cram into a fullsize gun with a mag that holds 10 in a subcompact.

[Polecat]

SIG should have applied that mag to the P320 (yes I realized it was developed after). But imagine how much ammo you could cram into a fullsize gun with a mag that holds 10 in a subcompact.

Joe,
I think that is a great idea. I would like them to see them upsize the 365 just a bit like 15 round mag more of a full grip that doesn’t pinch. I just noticed on some of the newer subcompact 320’s the side of the grip is more slab sided, with a factory pinky extension allowing a decent grip. I would like to see more “squarish” grip frame with different texture.

Dave

[VT1032]

I have held the P365 next to my Shield 2.0 and my friend's G43. It is indeed impressive. 10+1 versus 6+1 and 7+1.

My issue is that I do not trust it, plain and simple.

Glock and Smith are smart companies with major R&D budgets and and talented employees. For the past 5-ish years I've held them unquestionably over Sig in terms of quality control and design proofing.

Frankly, I think if there was a way to make a 10+1 gun that size that was reliable and durable over time, they wouldn't be the only game in town to have done it. With all the reported P365 problems, I think they'll eventually share the rep of the Ruger LCP (which, to be fair, I own two of) as a relatively low round count gun unless you want to start having parts breakages.

I'd rather have the Shield, which has some field time on it and is robust enough to give me some confidence.

There's no doubt that the 365 is a remarkable achievement in size and grip comfort for that capacity, but I'm a long way from trusting one.

I think they are both talented companies with more dialed in QC, but innovative would not be the word I'd use to describe either. They stick to tried and true because it works and makes them money. Say what you want, but the basic design of the Glock is the same as in the 80s and the same could be said of the M&P. The later versions are better, no doubt, but not significantly different. Sig, on the other hand, seems to be the opposite. I really love to hate sig lately, but credit where credit is due. They have been coming out with some really interesting and innovative designs lately (P365, P320, MCX, MPX, supressors, optics, ammo, etc.) They are trying things other companies aren't. The results are hit or miss though. They just don't seem to have the QC to fully bring them to fruition in many cases. The thing about the 365 is that the innovative part is the magazine, but the magazine isn't where the issues seem to be originating. I think if they got their QC shit together, it could be a very viable design.

I think in many ways, Sig is pushing the industry as a whole to advance beyond it's comfort zone and come up with innovative designs of their own. Glock, in particular, has gone from what I would consider to be a really stagnant company (rightfully so, no need to reinvent the wheel), to one that has really begun to advance their product line and start bringing to market insteresting things that people are asking for (MOS guns, slide serrations, G19X/G45, etc). I see this, at least in part to the P320's inovativeness (see things like the X-Carry, etc).

[Bucky]

Glock and Smith are smart companies with major R&D budgets and and talented employees. For the past 5-ish years I've held them unquestionably over Sig in terms of quality control and design proofing.

25 years ago, if you said you held S&W over Sig, you’d be laughed at. My how times have changed. :(

[octagon]

The unique part, that also has some patents on it (who wants to "copy" it or reengineer it and then spend money in court).

Sig said they plan to file patents for the magazine but I don't see any issued so far.

https://patents.justia.com/assignee/sig-sauer-inc

I wonder if their patent isn't unique enough compared to other magazines like H&K P7, Beretta and S&W Shield designs that have various taper and different double stack designs. You don't have to copy, re-engineer or pay patent royalties to match what the P365 does. Getting close in capacity or size would probably be enough. I know I would consider a 9 shot mag in the same package or a 10 shot in a slightly larger package if it came with reliability and less issues than the P365 seems to be having even after several do-overs. That's just me though.

[Zman001]

SIG should have applied that mag to the P320 (yes I realized it was developed after). But imagine how much ammo you could cram into a fullsize gun with a mag that holds 10 in a subcompact.

Thats not how it works, the 365's mag is like a 1.5 stack mag, while the 320 uses a double stack mag.

If you took a 365 mag and a 320 mag that were the exact same length, the 320 would hold more ammo.

[Super77]

You mean like the XD-E?

I got to try one of those out. Didn't hate it for its intended use.

[JBP55]

25 years ago, if you said you held S&W over Sig, you’d be laughed at. My how times have changed. :(


True.

[einherjarvalk]

I have to wonder if there will eventually be a point at which people decide the juice isn't really worth the squeeze when it comes to going thinner and smaller. The more I shoot my Shield, the more I have to ask "is it really worth the added difficulty shooting this gun over a G26?"

Maybe it's just my personal taste, but given how easy it is to shoot modern double stack subcompacts like the G26, I have to ask how much of a difference 3mm of width actually makes with regards to concealment.

[DAVE_M]

With the rapid developments in holster technology, the P365 is becoming a mouse fart in a hurricane.

More people are concealing full size firearms than ever before.

[Polecat]

Sig said they plan to file patents for the magazine but I don't see any issued so far.

https://patents.justia.com/assignee/sig-sauer-inc

I wonder if their patent isn't unique enough compared to other magazines like H&K P7, Beretta and S&W Shield designs that have various taper and different double stack designs. You don't have to copy, re-engineer or pay patent royalties to match what the P365 does. Getting close in capacity or size would probably be enough. I know I would consider a 9 shot mag in the same package or a 10 shot in a slightly larger package if it came with reliability and less issues than the P365 seems to be having even after several do-overs. That's just me though.

I spoke to Wilhelm Bubits a few years back when he brought out the Caracal, we were talking about pistol width. He, being a designer/engineer, stated it was the magazine width that determined the width of the gun. His subcompact Caracal, yet to surface over in the states is only 23 mm wide, which is 0.9” or basically a tad less than Kahr. His subcompact held 13 rounds in the magazine. This was afforded by the mag spring that would wind concentrically on itself as it was compressed. I don’t think the the SIG mag is all that special. Furthermore, the Karh has an offset feed ramp which may or may not be under patent currently. The offset allows for a super slim slide.

I have no doubt others will follow. Just like the Walther PPS kinda set the stage for quality sub singlestacks.

[LockedBreech]

25 years ago, if you said you held S&W over Sig, you’d be laughed at. My how times have changed. :(

Heck, even a few years ago I'd be stunned to be endorsing S&W, but they've really tightened up lately.

[Father of 3]

Not an engineer, but how hard would it be to make something like a G26S using a G43 slide like they did with the G30S, but tapering the frame just beyond the magazine well. That’s one of the things I love about a BHP/P-35 is the slim profile like a single stack but with a double stack magazine to fill the hand.

[kitten_frenzy]

Not an engineer, but how hard would it be to make something like a G26S using a G43 slide like they did with the G30S, but tapering the frame just beyond the magazine well. That’s one of the things I love about a BHP/P-35 is the slim profile like a single stack but with a double stack magazine to fill the hand.

No idea why they're putting out stuff like the G45 instead of stuff like this.

I want someone to make an 80% Shield lower that takes P365 mags. Probably not possible, but that'd be tits.

[leathermaneod]

No idea why they're putting out stuff like the G45 instead of stuff like this.

I want someone to make an 80% Shield lower that takes P365 mags. Probably not possible, but that'd be tits.

Probably because the number of people who are interested in the G45 is an order of magnitude greater than the number of people who are interested in stuff like the p365.


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[RJ]

With the rapid developments in holster technology, the P365 is becoming a mouse fart in a hurricane.

More people are concealing full size firearms than ever before.

Yeah. My interest in these smaller firearms waned a bit after I discovered how well my G19 carried in an RCS Perun. I’m 5’6” so not a big guy.


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[MistWolf]

With the rapid developments in holster technology, the P365 is becoming a mouse fart in a hurricane.

More people are concealing full size firearms than ever before.

Even with modern holsters, I find I'm carrying the P365 more often than the PPQ.

I've been shooting the P365 and except for a couple of failures to extract with a certain brand of ammo (I'm sure it's pistol related, not ammo) it's been reliable. I've been using the 12 round mags almost exclusively.

[Mike C]

... came back in bought it and went back for another 100 flawless rounds through the new one. It was crazy accurate, stone cold reliable, but remain wary as the early failures with higher round counts.

It does make you think “why am I carrying something bigger with less firepower?” Currently carry my G43 with +2.

Can we please not say 100 flawless rounds. Seriously, 100 rounds in a sample of one tells you jack. "Stone cold reliable but remain wary" seriously man. It doesn't make me think squat. I'm happy to carry my G43 and a few extra mags because I know that shit will work. Sig can easily be called into question not only on their design and lack of reliability but their ethics. I'll keep my Glocks despite risking being kilt in the streets by mall ninjas.



I think they are both talented companies with more dialed in QC, but innovative would not be the word I'd use to describe either. They stick to tried and true because it works and makes them money. Say what you want, but the basic design of the Glock is the same as in the 80s and the same could be said of the M&P. The later versions are better, no doubt, but not significantly different. Sig, on the other hand, seems to be the opposite. I really love to hate sig lately, but credit where credit is due. They have been coming out with some really interesting and innovative designs lately (P365, P320, MCX, MPX, supressors, optics, ammo, etc.) They are trying things other companies aren't. The results are hit or miss though. They just don't seem to have the QC to fully bring them to fruition in many cases. The thing about the 365 is that the innovative part is the magazine, but the magazine isn't where the issues seem to be originating. I think if they got their QC shit together, it could be a very viable design.

I think in many ways, Sig is pushing the industry as a whole to advance beyond it's comfort zone and come up with innovative designs of their own. Glock, in particular, has gone from what I would consider to be a really stagnant company (rightfully so, no need to reinvent the wheel), to one that has really begun to advance their product line and start bringing to market insteresting things that people are asking for (MOS guns, slide serrations, G19X/G45, etc). I see this, at least in part to the P320's inovativeness (see things like the X-Carry, etc).

VT1032 I can agree with most of what you are saying. But the big question is if Sig can get their QC together. As far as I can remember, pretty much since I've joined this board people have complained or commented on Sig's lack of QC. At this point I just can't see it. It sucks because I actually really like the P365 and if the thing would run right I'd buy a boat load of them because it really is pushing the envelope and in my opinion is innovative not to mention 12+1, (incredible). I don't think Sig is driving the market or pushing the industry because most of their products as of late have major issues or just flat out don't work. Everything from the P320, MPX, and P365, all the way back to the extractors and component quality issues on staple guns in their product line up. I'm not trying to hate just for the sake of bagging on Sig but they deserve every ounce of criticism they have received and continue to receive. Honestly it's rather frustrating because I'd love to dump the G43's & 42's I have for a solid 9mm pistol in the size of the P365 especially with the capacity and shoot ability it brings to the table. That gun checks so many boxes its stupid; well, all except trustworthiness and reliability. Until Sig removes their head from their 4th POC fuck'em. But I get where you are coming from.

[Polecat]

Glock will never be able to do it until they stop using polymer mags, just too wide. The G26 frame is a problem in itself, solves nothing, even it were to have a 43 slide. My money is on Walther or HK. HK has been working on something for the CCW market, which has not ever come to even a mere whisper other that vagueries like “HK3”

The 365 is the right concept with poor execution, just hope they finally have it sorted out.