A "hand rifle" for an SRO

[feudist]

Starting an SRO job inside an elementary school as my retirement job. The gig was created specifically as a response to the vile school shooter craze.

Every since I first heard about it I wondered: what pistol/configuration would be the best? I have carte blanche as to make/model/caliber/load.

I'll have a rifle-in my car. The threat profile is mostly a single assailant, moving fast and bent on murder-suicide.

The circumstances are quite different than Patrol,eg, the extreme downrange and uprange hazard, possibly scores of no-shoots all around, and a substantial increase in engagement ranges. Just look down a modern school hallway sometime.

This inclines me towards an extremely precise, perhaps optically sighted pistol.

I currently carry a G19 that's essentially stock, with typical night sights. I practice weekly(sometimes weakly) and am not a prodigy. I shot my way into "B" class once,by a fraction. Back in 2000-nought-1.Especially at ranges past 10 yards I am suffering from failing eyesight and never really focusing on training at that range. In my career on the screet, contact to 7-10 yards was far and away most likely.

And the damned no-shoots just weren't so little.

I've been watching the RMR movement with great interest. I have a S&W MP22C with a FF# on it and can see the benefits. So installing a RMR onto my newest Glock 19FS is a definite possibility.

I thought about a G34 for the longer sight radius and started a thread about it, but the consensus was muddled.

I have carried some sort of Glock as my duty/off duty piece since 1994-but if there's a better mousetrap in these specific circumstances ...I'll drop it like a bad habit.

Hell, I thought about thumb cocking a 6" .357 if that's what getting a quick decisive hit takes.

[okie john]

I’d look for an SAO Sig or Beretta with an RDS. Find an accurate load hit the range. This is mostly a software issue.


Okie John

[45dotACP]

If accuracy is a huge factor, you're in luck. Glocks Gen 5 guns are good.

I've started testing a Smith and Wesson M&P with a gunsmith fit Apex barrel and it's a very accurate setup. If I was looking for a gun that can print a 1" group at 25 yards then that's the one I'd choose.

I've shot and been extremely impressed with the HK VP9 and have heard a Walther PPQ is similarly accurate. It will likely boil down to your ability to control the trigger

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[opmike]

So, you barely made it into B class nearly 18 years ago? What's your current training regimen like or what is your plan to improve on this moving forward?

Nearly every service pistol on the market today will meet the accuracy requirement of your job. You have the most experience shooting Glocks. Do you feel like you're being hampered by your current platform in some way? Would time spent learning a new platform be better time spent furthering your development with what you're already familiar with?

What other handguns do you have experience with and what did you think of them? Do you have a preference for Striker over DA/SA? For you, would the time spent learning a new trigger system be better than time spent improving with your current gear? This talk about hand rifles and thumb-cocking revolvers has me wondering if you should restructure your priorities a bit, here.

[HeavyDuty]

I honestly do not contemplate optimizing for longer shots with my carry weapons, as a civ I would have a hard time justifying distance shots in just about any circumstance I could encounter.

That said, I think if I were put in this position I would definitely be looking at a RDS equipped gun - if Glock probably a 19 or 19X. I personally shoot irons on longer slides better (see your other thread), but I can see where a RDS would trump iron sight precision at longer distances.

[Default.mp3]

Seems like something that the ALG 6 Second Mount would be a good choice for, short of something with an actual stock, such as the B&T USW or perhaps the B&T MP9. Those are still small enough to fit into a holster.

I would think that any modern service pistol would be able to meet the mechanical accuracy aspect.

[HCM]

Starting an SRO job inside an elementary school as my retirement job. The gig was created specifically as a response to the vile school shooter craze.

Every since I first heard about it I wondered: what pistol/configuration would be the best? I have carte blanche as to make/model/caliber/load.

I'll have a rifle-in my car. The threat profile is mostly a single assailant, moving fast and bent on murder-suicide.

The circumstances are quite different than Patrol,eg, the extreme downrange and uprange hazard, possibly scores of no-shoots all around, and a substantial increase in engagement ranges. Just look down a modern school hallway sometime.

This inclines me towards an extremely precise, perhaps optically sighted pistol.

I currently carry a G19 that's essentially stock, with typical night sights. I practice weekly(sometimes weakly) and am not a prodigy. I shot my way into "B" class once,by a fraction. Back in 2000-nought-1.Especially at ranges past 10 yards I am suffering from failing eyesight and never really focusing on training at that range. In my career on the screet, contact to 7-10 yards was far and away most likely.

And the damned no-shoots just weren't so little.

I've been watching the RMR movement with great interest. I have a S&W MP22C with a FF# on it and can see the benefits. So installing a RMR onto my newest Glock 19FS is a definite possibility.

I thought about a G34 for the longer sight radius and started a thread about it, but the consensus was muddled.

I have carried some sort of Glock as my duty/off duty piece since 1994-but if there's a better mousetrap in these specific circumstances ...I'll drop it like a bad habit.

Hell, I thought about thumb cocking a 6" .357 if that's what getting a quick decisive hit takes.

RDS Pistol is the answer here.

Given you are likely “it” for the most critical time the capacity / reload negatives of a revolver outweigh the positive. Plus you have a lot of time on Glocks.

If you want to stick with you 19FS the question is do you want a direct mill for an RMR or have L&M precision cut the slide for the Atom System in case you want to switch optics.

Personally I think I would go with an RDS 19x for the longer grip and more rounds but some people do better with the G19 grip and some do better with the G17 grip.

Glock has a factory Gen 5 17 MOS with FCS coming out which seems like it or an equivalent G19 would fit the bill perfectly.

A SIG P226 SAO can also be cut for an RDS.

30591

[El Cid]

As stated it’s the shooter more than the weapon. Train often and do the dry fire practice 99% of LEO’s refuse to do. End each range session with Paul Howe’s hostage target.

I’d wait for the ACRO to see if it’s as good as many of us expect it to be.

Maybe then a G19X with a KKM comp? Same OAL as a G34 so it fits a duty holster and gives you the full grip.

[HCM]

To take advantage of the RDS you should invest in some RDS specific training. Scott Jedlinski “Asian Jedi” here on PF comes to mind but there are others.

https://modern-samurai-project.myshopify.com

Failing that some additional training with your RDS pistol. Chase Jenkins of Talon Defense and Frank Proctor are both based in AL.

[HCM]

As stated it’s the shooter more than the weapon. Train often and do the dry fire practice 99% of LEO’s refuse to do. End each range session with Paul Howe’s hostage target.

I’d wait for the ACRO to see if it’s as good as many of us expect it to be.

Maybe then a G19X with a KKM comp? Same OAL as a G34 so it fits a duty holster and gives you the full grip.

High percentage “no fail” shots are one of the niches for the “Roland Special.”

[El Cid]

High percentage “no fail” shots are one of the niches for the “Roland Special.”

Exactly. Except on duty in uniform I’d want a full frame grip. My dream retirement job is SRO. Hang out in the A/C all day waiting for some schmuck to try killing kids and then burn him down.

ETA: to be completely honest I would prefer a suppressor as my “comp” but that would be a pain to carry and scare all the snowflakes.

[HCM]

Exactly. Except on duty in uniform I’d want a full frame grip. My dream retirement job is SRO. Hang out in the A/C all day waiting for some schmuck to try killing kids and then burn him down.

I would prefer a 19x version myself.

Of course some people like carnival freaks and POTUS have small hands so YMMV.

[GuanoLoco]

Drop me a line - I just got back from solo training at BGTC and was running USPSA shoot-on-the-move drills with USPSA Production gear, then swapping to concealment and shooting the Gabe White Standards (goal: Turbo Pin times), FAST drill (goal < 5.0s clean), 10 yard (goal < 3.0s) and 25 yard 6x8” plate racks.

Fair warning - I’m a high-volume shooter. I’ll probably head out there again tomorrow.

I’m not sure we are calibrated the same way practice-wise, but I’d be happy to give you a hand if you are available and interested.

[Hambo]

RDS on a G34/35 or 1911.

[HeavyDuty]

High percentage “no fail” shots are one of the niches for the “Roland Special.”

To each their own, but I’ve always found most incarnations of the Roland Special to be gimmicky.

[RevolverRob]

Gen 5 17 or 19 + ATOM Unity mount + RMR Type 2 + Streamlight TLR-2 (Green dot) + Federal HST + Safariland Holster

And 10,000 rounds of Lawman or American Eagle in whatever bullet weight for pick for HST and then 2-3 MRDS specific classes. Shoot carry optics from duty gear every week.

[El Cid]

To each their own, but I’ve always found most incarnations of the Roland Special to be gimmicky.

Can you elaborate? I ask because some of our nations finest use them to shoot evil people quite successfully.

[feudist]

So, you barely made it into B class nearly 18 years ago? What's your current training regimen like or what is your plan to improve on this moving forward?

Nearly every service pistol on the market today will meet the accuracy requirement of your job. You have the most experience shooting Glocks. Do you feel like you're being hampered by your current platform in some way? Would time spent learning a new platform be better time spent furthering your development with what you're already familiar with?

What other handguns do you have experience with and what did you think of them? Do you have a preference for Striker over DA/SA? For you, would the time spent learning a new trigger system be better than time spent improving with your current gear? This talk about hand rifles and thumb-cocking revolvers has me wondering if you should restructure your priorities a bit, here.

The revolver thing was a bit of a joke-"ideas out of the box"-if you will.

I shoot around 150 rounds a week consistently. Absolutely I need higher quality practice, and now with weekends off(finally) I'll be hitting some local matches.

I've fired a lot of different guns, but I've concentrated on the Glock because I adopted it early and(frankly) it was inexpensive when I was a younger, poorer officer.

I'm no fanboy, though. I like the ease of service, the durable finish and reliability.

[HeavyDuty]

Can you elaborate? I ask because some of our nations first use them to shoot evil people quite successfully.

As I said, most incarnations - many people mod the hell out of the gun. I see strength in the basic concept, but then people start gaming them up with cosmetic slide mods, what I consider to be excessive polymer alterations, what I consider to be questionable FCG changes - stuff like that. Keep it basic, and it makes sense to me unless the goal is building a gaming gun.

[El Cid]

As I said, most incarnations - many people mod the hell out of the gun. I see strength in the basic concept, but then people start gaming them up with cosmetic slide mods, what I consider to be excessive polymer alterations, what I consider to be questionable FCG changes - stuff like that. Keep it basic, and it makes sense to me unless the goal is building a gaming gun.

Gotcha. Those are mods I dislike and distrust on any Glock. I don’t view them as RS specific but maybe that’s just me.

[BJJ]

While optimizing your handgun seems like a great idea, optimizing the storage location of your rifle seems like an even better idea.

How big is the school?

[GuanoLoco]

I’m guessing you are going to get the most bang for your buck (time and $) working on the software problem.

I have some other suggestions - care kit for tomorrow below.

Also, I’ll suggest a class with Ben Stoeger - I’m hosting him in AL 11/3-4, and 11/5-6: https://tinyurl.com/StoegerBGTC2018

[HCM]

To each their own, but I’ve always found most incarnations of the Roland Special to be gimmicky.

The real anaswer for SRO duties is an M4 with an optic but this isn’t Israel and carrying an M4 at all times ain’t gonna happen. Handguns are it.

The OP will need a handgun which is both accurate and precise. They aren’t the same thing.

30596


The Roland’s have two primary niches -

1) quicker shots with a high degree of accuracy and precision
2) use under night vision.

If those don’t apply to you - then no need for a Roland special . But there is a thought process behind them.

2) isn’t a factor here but 1) certainly is.

Like a lot of things The Roland came out of guys messing around with various enhancements to meet their own requirements.

First step was KKM match barrels - These gave accuracy but they usually change POI. That lead to Dawson adjustable sights. These were best known as the “Tigerswan” Guns.

The RDS followed as a replacement for the Dawson’s. That lead to the “Comp.” Though 9mm recoil isn’t significant the Comp knocks muzzle rise down enough to aid in tracking the dot.

I put Comp in quotes because most of the so called Glock comps, including the KKM are actually muzzle-breaks.

Call it a gimmick all you want but the timer and target don’t lie. They aren’t a replacement for skill but they are an enhancement.

The essential elements of a RS are:

RDS
Match barrel with “Comp”

Nice to have are:

Front cocking serrations (due to the RDS)
Grip enhancements

Most anything else is fluff.

If the balloon goes up, the OP’s duties may include:

1) high accuracy requirements due to multiple innocents.
2) the need for rapid follow up shots due to either multiple attackers, attackers with body armor or simply the fact that realistically, the OP will have to solve his problem with a pistol.
3) the likleyhood shots greater than 25 yards with a pistol. The average supermarket aisle in America is 27.5 yards long - you could easily have a 50 yard or greater shot in or around a school.

Given those requirements two things make an RDS a logical choice:

1) no one’s eyes are getting younger
2) even with good eyesight RDS makes shooting at pistols at longer distances easier.

[HCM]

I’m guessing you are going to get the most bang for your buck (time and $) working on the software problem.

I have some other suggestions - care kit for tomorrow below.

Also, I’ll suggest a class with Ben Stoeger - I’m hosting him in AL 11/3-4, and 11/5-6: https://tinyurl.com/StoegerBGTC2018

Speaking of software weve seen good results with the Mantis X.

https://www.gtdist.com/mantis-x-training-system.html

[RevolverRob]

Where we see the red dot fail is at super fast, super close shots. Which - is what the green laser is for. To aid dot acquisition at speed (or as a backup if the sight dies). Placed in this scenario - I would focus on high speed, high accuracy with the most mechanically precise gun you can get your hands on. Period.

I’d probably stop shooting at anything larger than a B8 or an obscured B8. Or a 3x5” note card cut to 1.5”x5” (occular window stand in).

And I’d practice until I couldn’t miss from 5” to 50-yards.

[HCM]

Where we see the red dot fail is at super fast, super close shots.

Not exactly. There is a learning curve but it can be overcome.


https://youtu.be/8jAoyG7mktA

[BN]

feudist, Is your Glock holding you back? Can you clean your department qualification course? Could you clean it with all head shots or at half the time? You might be required to make precise shots at speed. Have you shot other pistols already and what do you like best? Can you see your sights OK?

[Balisong]

Given your requirements, likely usage scenario, and history with Glocks, it seems to me it's a no brainer to go with a 19x milled for your RDS of choice. The new aimpoint seems like a good choice for non-concealed needs like yours, but of course I don't think it's out just yet. And as others have stated, practice practice practice. You'll be dealing with much higher stakes on a daily basis than most of us see.

[David S.]

To take advantage of the RDS you should invest in some RDS specific training. Scott Jedlinski “Asian Jedi” here on PF comes to mind but there are others.

https://modern-samurai-project.myshopify.com

Failing that some additional training with your RDS pistol. Chase Jenkins of Talon Defense and Frank Proctor are both based in AL.

Sage Dynamics should be another good RDS specific training option. He seems to run a lot of classes in FL/GA/AL region.

[GuanoLoco]

Speaking of software weve seen good results with the Mantis X.

https://www.gtdist.com/mantis-x-training-system.html

I’d have to work from low ready - now compatible with my various holsters.

[JustOneGun]

Just my $.02. for my eyes, retirement physical health and typical local schools. Obviously your's may be different. Eyesight for specialty work often calls for special gear. RDS? Maybe. But not for me. I would personally go with work bifocals with the readers up top at about 12-14mm tall.

I figure I could gain/keep more of my skill if I concentrated on just one platform. For me that would be a pistol and not a pistol/rifle. See below.

I could run to my rifle in the car and then run to the problem. But I figure I would just run to my problem, skipping the rifle in the car. Less people shot.

While there are certainly some long shots to be had at schools. Classrooms, dark hallways, looked at with old eyes and all those kids, teachers, etc I figure the job will require running to the problem more than shooting it from afar.

So for me (just maybe for you?) I figure a new set of glasses that have mid height vs top attach ear stems. Squeeze in the top bifocals. I figure starting and continuing to work more distance into the weekly shooting working up to 50 yards in the first 6mos/year. I figure adding/staying/getting into shape to run. Adding in running and shooting to the weekly training.

For me that would be the easiest, keep it simple routine.


ETA: If you've been shooting Glock for so long, concentrating on that would also probably gain you a faster improvement in distance shooting. Or at least that is where I would start. You can always change that later. But again I'm of the opinion that distance is important but not the most important.

[feudist]

HCM: fantastic shooting. I've watched this concept since you debuted it on P&S. A red dot is very prominent in my thinking for this piece.

RevolverRob: yeah, I've been shooting the crap out of the Test all year. A B8 and Langdon's targets are my goto.

JustOneGun: I got fitted for new peeps yesterday. I emphasized the focal point for shooting.

Bill Nesbitt: Sure, I almost always Shoot 100. The lowest score I ever shot was an 82. Ever.Once.

But, it's just the old minimum standards course, 25 yards and in. So nothing to brag on. Our training is non-existent. Just Qual and a couple of combat courses and a Sim drill twice a year.

Balisong: Precisely.

[HCM]

Sage Dynamics should be another good RDS specific training option. He seems to run a lot of classes in FL/GA/AL region.

Agreed.

[WobblyPossum]

I second the recommendation of a G19X milled for a red dot. You can get an RMR 2 right now or wait a little bit for the Aimpoint ACRO. You get a platform you’re already very comfortable and experienced with, the inherent accuracy of the Gen 5 guns, the best trigger Glock ever released consistently and the advantages of a red dot for fast precision shots.

Have you considered an AR pistol with a LAW Tactical folding adapter kept in a backpack? If you’re willing to wear the backpack whenever you’re not in your office, you’ll always have a rifle with you.

[HCM]

I’d have to work from low ready - now compatible with my various holsters.

Works with any light bearing holster. If the OP doesn’t have one already a basic ALS light bearing holster like a 7TS is like $50.

They are great for solo work and remedial because you can do both dry practice and live fire and compare the two.

If using it to coach someone else you need to stay close to them and keep light of sight or the blue tooth signal will be blocked by the shooters body.

[okie john]

A lot of folks, including me, have posted about Glock accuracy in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12244-Freestyle-shooting-at-25-yds-revisited/page4

Post #37 stands out in my mind.


Okie John

[HCM]

HCM: fantastic shooting. I've watched this concept since you debuted it on P&S. A red dot is very prominent in my thinking for this piece.

RevolverRob: yeah, I've been shooting the crap out of the Test all year. A B8 and Langdon's targets are my goto.

JustOneGun: I got fitted for new peeps yesterday. I emphasized the focal point for shooting.

Bill Nesbitt: Sure, I almost always Shoot 100. The lowest score I ever shot was an 82. Ever.Once.

But, it's just the old minimum standards course, 25 yards and in. So nothing to brag on. Our training is non-existent. Just Qual and a couple of combat courses and a Sim drill twice a year.

Balisong: Precisely.

That video is NOT me . That is Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai. As I noted earlier he is on here as AsianJedi.

[Default.mp3]

Let me give you the rds short version

You quick zero at 10 confirm at 25 Yards. All windage and elevation
On a no shit zero
Target

Rds is slow it’s slow because you presentation sucks and your grip and you focus on the dot the target

The dot moves too much. So does your front sight you just don’t see it as much since it’s not projected

I can’t find the dot
Again your presentation sucks and grip and turtled Head position
And locked arms

But when i shoot one handed moving. Left or right
No kidding use the wings of the Rmr

No dot shoot the window

Ugh window is broken or fouled

Shoot the notch on top of the sight housing

And or paint it to pick it up for close range shooting

Stop the gun sooner on the presentation stop locking out elbows

You Pick up up the dot faster and shoot it sooner that way

Focus on target lift or scoop pistol to eyes while looking at target
Poof look a dot in th window right were you are looking

Wait amazing the same exact shit as the bunpy things on top your slide now

That will be 500 dollars pleaseSource: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/1944242985622192/?comment_id=1944693635577127&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D

I personally remain unconvinced that an RDS specific class is needed, though the caveat to that is that I've never taken one, either. This is not to say that the RDS-specific classes are bad, I'm sure you can learn much from most of the instructors that offer such classes, I just don't think that RDSes are necessarily different enough from irons to warrant a class specific to them, rather than just taking any reputable instructor's pistol course.

[feudist]

HCM:Oops!

Okie John: That was an extremely useful post.

[UNM1136]

Suarez' blog has lots of articles on active shooter stuff, and info on accurizing glocks to the task. Everything from Suarez stamped Roland Special types to PDWs with an arm brace, to match grade barrels and FCGs. I am partial to his flat trigger, milled striker, and NP3 finished internals. He will also sell you everything you want to put in or hang off your pistol. I don't agree with everything he says, but my duty piece is a gen 4 MOS with RMR, with Suarez internals. Thinking seriously about a match grade barrel and slide. For the fun of it in the next couple of years I will be building a Roland Special. Chuck wouldn't know me from Adam, but we have exchanged emails and board post on lightfighter and others for the last 18 years or so, and I kinda want, moreso since I found out that he and Jon were involved in hatching it.

pat

[awp_101]

Where we see the red dot fail is at super fast, super close shots. Which - is what the green laser is for.
Why a green laser? Has green been shown to be a better choice than red?

My laser experience is limited to making cats chase them (when we had cats) and a couple of mags through a friends pistol so I'm more clueless than usual on this...

[HeavyDuty]

Where we see the red dot fail is at super fast, super close shots. Which - is what the green laser is for. To aid dot acquisition at speed (or as a backup if the sight dies). Placed in this scenario - I would focus on high speed, high accuracy with the most mechanically precise gun you can get your hands on. Period.

I’d probably stop shooting at anything larger than a B8 or an obscured B8. Or a 3x5” note card cut to 1.5”x5” (occular window stand in).

And I’d practice until I couldn’t miss from 5” to 50-yards.

I’m not disputing you, but to me it’s counterituitive to mentally switch between sighting systems on the fly like that. Then again, I have a hard time breathing and thinking at the same time...

[bravo7]

Suarez' blog has lots of articles on active shooter stuff, and info on accurizing glocks to the task. Everything from Suarez stamped Roland Special types to PDWs with an arm brace, to match grade barrels and FCGs. I am partial to his flat trigger, milled striker, and NP3 finished internals. He will also sell you everything you want to put in or hang off your pistol. I don't agree with everything he says, but my duty piece is a gen 4 MOS with RMR, with Suarez internals. Thinking seriously about a match grade barrel and slide. For the fun of it in the next couple of years I will be building a Roland Special. Chuck wouldn't know me from Adam, but we have exchanged emails and board post on lightfighter and others for the last 18 years or so, and I kinda want, moreso since I found out that he and Jon were involved in hatching it.

pat

His parts aren’t anything special. They’re just rebranded parts made by someone else.

[TGS]

Saurez also disgraced his badge and is a felon.

There's plenty of good Americans to give our money to.

[El Cid]

Why a green laser? Has green been shown to be a better choice than red?

My laser experience is limited to making cats chase them (when we had cats) and a couple of mags through a friends pistol so I'm more clueless than usual on this...

It’s typically brighter and easier to see. If it’s a backup to a red dot it’s easoer to tell which one you’re looking at.

[tango-papa]

Two suggestions:

1. Try a Glock 34 and see if you (a) like it and (b) shoot better/faster with it.
If yes and you want a red dot sight, get a standard G34 and have it milled by one of the companies doing it who knows what they are doing - Glock MOS cut is less than ideal.

Obviously not a pistol...
2. SBR AR with a Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter in a dedicated weapon bag.
Discreet or obvious weapon bag depending on the "political climate" of the department/school.
The backpack type weapon bags (made specifically for a compact rifle with a folded stock) are not going to draw attention as you carry it in/out of the school and/or around the school if necessary - the more you are seen with the bag, the less anyone will notice it.
A small safe or secure .mil grade locker bolted to the wall or floor on your SRO office (assuming you have an office) for storage during the day and never leave the rifle overnight.

Law Tactical - link
https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm

tp

[awp_101]

If it’s a backup to a red dot it’s easoer to tell which one you’re looking at.
That's an excellent point I've never considered. Thanks!

[Cookie Monster]

I am not law enforcement in any way or no history of it. Actually never been in a fight so I don’t know anything.

I would address the concerns with daily dry practice, weekly live fire, and a program of regular cardio and strength training. Add some shooting competition if you can have more to give your goals.

Try that for six months and then address any hardware improvements.

If I knew a fight was coming I would think I couldn’t do too many pushups or too many good dry presses. I wish I was better at that.

[Default.mp3]

I’m not disputing you, but to me it’s counterituitive to mentally switch between sighting systems on the fly like that. Then again, I have a hard time breathing and thinking at the same time...It is something you need to practice, but it's not particularly difficult, IME. You would have to do the same for any time you use a laser, anyway, to be able to switch sighting systems on the fly.

[David S.]

I personally remain unconvinced that an RDS specific class is needed, though the caveat to that is that I've never taken one, either. This is not to say that the RDS-specific classes are bad, I'm sure you can learn much from most of the instructors that offer such classes, I just don't think that RDSes are necessarily different enough from irons to warrant a class specific to them, rather than just taking any reputable instructor's pistol course.

Seems you could say the same thing about DA/SA trigger, for instance. If you’re running those systems, it makes a lot of sense to take some training from guys that truly understand and appreciate those systems. Pannone, Ops Spec, HiTS, and Langdon come immediately to mind. Do you have to? Of course not.

Having taken Jedi’s 2 day class, I think a 1-day class, or attending the first day of a 2 day class, would get you 90% of the RDS specific training benefits. That said, Scott is a good shooter and a damn fine shooting instructor. His training pedigree is solid. He’s a solid option if you’re looking to shoot better.

I was the only one in the class with no pistol mounted RDS experience. I borrowed a gun for the class and still don’t have a RDS equipped gun. During introductions, everyone in the class said they had given the RDS a fair shake and struggled with it. Everyone in the class demonstrated marked improvement by the end of second day. I would bet if you polled them now, 6 months later, they would all agree that taking the class shaved off at least $400 in time and ammo going it alone.

FWIW, Scott is teaching his RDS class in ATL in Nov.

[Hambo]

On the software side, don't get too jacked up on what the scenario will be, because it will probably be something different. What I mean is that it's just as likely you can backshoot the shooter at six yards in the clear as it is that you'll have to shoot over the heads of 36 kids to make a forty yard head shot.

Work on what you need to work on. Optimize your hardware if you can or need to.

[Lon]

While optimizing your handgun seems like a great idea, optimizing the storage location of your rifle seems like an even better idea.

How big is the school?

Unless you’re going to carry the rifle with you all them time or you spend 99% of your time in the office then I’d look at optimizing what you have on hand ALL THE TIME. I’ve had this conversation with our SRO quite often. If a backpack with a LAW folder equipped, RDS sighted, 8” 300BLK AR of some flavor was a possibility I’d say do that.

[Cookie Monster]

Saurez also disgraced his badge and is a felon.

There's plenty of good Americans to give our money to.

Some thread drift here and I apologize.

I’ve taken a few of Saurez’s Pistol classes in AZ as disclosure going on 8 to 10 years ago. Not a supporter or detractor. He is what he is.

I get it. Saurez is definitely chasing the cash and his history of choices is not so good.

But he has seen/touched/heard that elephant we all talk about here. I would suggest that there is value in what he has written or taught and be careful not to dismiss the lessons because of the flaws.

[StraitR]

Some thread drift here and I apologize.

I’ve taken a few of Saurez’s Pistol classes in AZ as disclosure going on 8 to 10 years ago. Not a supporter or detractor. He is what he is.

I get it. Saurez is definitely chasing the cash and his history of choices is not so good.

But he has seen/touched/heard that elephant we all talk about here. I would suggest that there is value in what he has written or taught and be careful not to dismiss the lessons because of the flaws.

Frankly, I dismiss him because he's historically been a contrarian for the sake of selling something different while simultaneously elitist about his methods and choices. Put simply, "Pick and do what I pick and do, because I pick and do it". Last time I was on warriortalk, some many years ago, he also referred to himself as Tribal Warlord or something asinine like that. None of that is my style.

[HCM]

Unless you’re going to carry the rifle with you all them time or you spend 99% of your time in the office then I’d look at optimizing what you have on hand ALL THE TIME. I’ve had this conversation with our SRO quite often. If a backpack with a LAW folder equipped, RDS sighted, 8” 300BLK AR of some flavor was a possibility I’d say do that.

I agree about ALL THE TIME.

The issue is it’s an elementary school so the only two places it could be would be on your person or in a safe in the office.

My understanding is the OP will be on site full time, presumably for the quickest possible response. If anything happens it will be a come as you are event.

Wearing a back pack at all times in addition to normal cop stuff (duty bell, body armor etc) just doesn’t seem realistic.

[HCM]

Why a green laser? Has green been shown to be a better choice than red?

My laser experience is limited to making cats chase them (when we had cats) and a couple of mags through a friends pistol so I'm more clueless than usual on this...


Green is more visible, particularly in daylight.

[TCB]

Something with a stock (shoulder mounted weapon system) is going to be your A answer. Be that some form of AR or a sub gun with an optic and a suppressor if possible in something like a backpack or messenger bag on your person at all times would be what I’d want if on foot in that setting. Barring that, find a pistol you can run and get good with it. If my Agency allowed RDS on duty guns I’d be spending as much time as it took to get up to speed with one as quickly as possible, this is the future. Your Agency and your community will most likely have a say in what is allowable in the area you patrol, figure that out and start training.

[UNM1136]

Green is more visible, particularly in daylight.

Yup, green is gooder.

And Suarez is what he is, his site is full of him contradicting himself when the dollar gets in the way. Yes I believe he is simply rebranding parts others make, and warriortalk is full of fanboys, but there are diamonds in the rough there. A customized glock delivering more accuracy is is better. I don't have to swallow the koolaide to recognize good ideas, Some of those good ideas are his. I support him with my dollars not because I belive him to be a prince, but he can usually provide what I want now. Quite frankly, I have found his business practices...less than ideal. But the market is there and his niche is there and I want what i want. My interactions have been good as a whole, despite some hiccups, and thus I have no problem using and recommending some of his products.

You do with your dollars what you think you should. I will use mine as I see fit.

pat

[45dotACP]

Just ran some ammo through the M&P40/9 Apex conversion. Fired three consecutive 5 round groups at about 20 yards (farthest the range goes) and I'll say this, I am not a great precision shooter by any means (focus is hard to keep and my wobble zone is a pain in my ass) but I called the fliers in targets 1 and 3. Target 2 was just meh in the way of front sight focus.

For me though, the M&P and an apex barrel is definitely some fantastic plastic. If I were to anticipate a long range shooting challenge, I'd have a duplicate of this gun with a RDS, a thumb safety and a load it with gold dots/HST and maybe start shooting an accuracy heavy game like PPC or bullseye to cement the fundamentals.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/5873e777edb593de5477435511be4ae6.jpg

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[feudist]

What great afternoon!

GL very generously spent the day running me hard on drills and scenarios.

Shooting on the move, hard entries and exits, whew! We shot FAST, El Pres and many more.

He gave me several tips, corrections and advice on practice that were on point.

I haven't had that much fun with my clothes on in quite a while!

He even gifted me a Stoeger's book Dryfire Reloaded.

I'l be hitting some of the local matches now that I have weekends off to supplement an increased focus on live and dryfire.

Unfortunately he let me shot one of his Tanfos....

Thanks again Guanoloco!

[JonInWA]

The OP has generated some excellent discussion and responses, but I'm going to suggest another route for consideration. So far, shootability has been emphasized, but I think, particularly in a SRO environment the SO might be well serves by a LEM or DAO trigger, particularly for both threat management or the increased ability to get off the trigger if necessary.

For a light but longer trigger pull, LEM;

For a heavier triggerpull, but one providing more perceptible feedback during the pull, DAO.

I don't disagree that a Glock or an HK striker fired pistol is more shootable (i.e,fast from initial pull to break to reset to follow-up shot), but I think the OP should carefully analyze assess what would be the best fit for him, the job, and the likely palette of scenarios with the job.

Best, Jon

[GuanoLoco]

I’m back from a 5 hour range session with Feudist. I’m glad that we had a chance to train together.

Good dude that shoots pretty good too! The fact that he’s on P-F should have been a clue.

[JHC]

I’m back from a 5 hour range session with Feudist. I’m glad that we had a chance to train together.

Good dude that shoots pretty good too! The fact that he’s on P-F should have been a clue.

Do you think new technology is the best use of the next thousand dollars?

[GuanoLoco]

Do you think new technology is the best use of the next thousand dollars?

No, and we discussed this for a while.

Don’t get me wrong, RDS technology is intriguing, and definitely simplifies the problem of aligning front and rear sights and promises potential improvements in accuracy at speed. But, to get a single gun running you need to buy an RDS, mount it (preferably with a milled slide), re-learn RDS vs. iron sight acquisition, prove the reliability of the device and practice to where it makes a meaningful difference. Holsters may need to be replaced, batteries maintained, dirty sight windows cleaned. To me, $1000 is probably the minimum entry point to even consider it and I think that’s low. Not to mention the time spent.

Then we need to think about device mortality, reliability and environmental challenges like bright sun, rain, etc. I like to shoot a lot and I just don’t get the feeling that current RDS’s are designed to handle that.

All that for ONE gun. I like to have at least one identical spare. Because things happen. Expecially with current RDS tech. Otherwise you are now training RDS and Irons, diluting training effort.

I see the RDS as interesting as a visual training tool. I am not to the point where I would convert my carry gun to RDS, or to start competing in USPSA Carry Optics division.

At work I often have to be a technology thought leader, but frankly I prefer tried and true irons for my pistols - and I think investments in practice and training pay off for ALL handguns.

EDIT: All that said, if Feudist WANTS to go down this road, and has the time and $ to invest, he should go for it. Worst case it is a learning journey that increases skill breadth and hopefully complements iron sight skills in the future. I’m just not there yet.

[HCM]

The OP has generated some excellent discussion and responses, but I'm going to suggest another route for consideration. So far, shootability has been emphasized, but I think, particularly in a SRO environment the SO might be well serves by a LEM or DAO trigger, particularly for both threat management or the increased ability to get off the trigger if necessary.

For a light but longer trigger pull, LEM;

For a heavier triggerpull, but one providing more perceptible feedback during the pull, DAO.

I don't disagree that a Glock or an HK striker fired pistol is more shootable (i.e,fast from initial pull to break to reset to follow-up shot), but I think the OP should carefully analyze assess what would be the best fit for him, the job, and the likely palette of scenarios with the job.

Best, Jon

Even within the SRO world an SRO permanently assigned to an elementary school is a very different thing than an SRO at a high school.

Let’s be honest. Unless it is located in the “hoodest” of hoods, an SRO is at an elementary school for one purpose. Stopping active threats. Holding unknown subjects at gun point is a secondary consideration here and mission drives the gear train.

For those wondering an SRO at an elementary school in the hood will also be dealing with. violent parents threatening and assauting staff and homeless drug addicts wandering in looking to steal things. Not theoretical.

[feudist]

Even within the SRO world an SRO permanently assigned to an elementary school is a very different thing than an SRO at a high school.

Let’s be honest. Unless it is located in the “hoodest” of hoods, an SRO is at an elementary school for one purpose. Stopping active threats. Holding unknown subjects at gun point is a secondary consideration here and mission drives the gear train.

For those wondering an SRO at an elementary school in the hood will also be dealing with. violent parents threatening and assauting staff and homeless drug addicts wandering in looking to steal things. Not theoretical.

This is what drove my initial post.

I'm not going to be constantly dealing with the day in, day out bullshit I did in Patrol.

I took a lot of people at gunpoint, made hands on arrests, chased idiots etc.

Now I'm more of a deadly serious security guard. If I draw, there is a much higher likelihood that it is to shoot.

Hence the "hardware" aspect of the question.I can't carry a rifle around-although ideal-hence..."Hand rifle". not in terms of hitting power but in hit probability at

greater than self defense ranges.

So what would optimize that. It's sort of a narrow set of circumstances. And the risk of collateral damage is just so high.

My G19 is an excellent General purpose pistol. Is there a Special purpose pistol that would answer better?

That's my question.

[RevolverRob]

I’m not disputing you, but to me it’s counterituitive to mentally switch between sighting systems on the fly like that. Then again, I have a hard time breathing and thinking at the same time...

So, let's bear a couple of things in mind.

Lasers, when used in conjunction with iron sights only - are not for target/dot focused shooting. They should be sighted in at the distance the iron sights are sighted to. The laser acts like a "beacon" for your front sight. Imagine shooting a blank black piece of paper and you're aiming for the center, you kind of get there, but it's not so precise, since the front sight is homogeneous with the paper. Now, take that piece of paper and put a white dot in the center, it's easier to aim at the center, right? Now, imagine that in low/moderate/dim light that the center of that target glows like the red or green beacon on a cellphone tower to alert planes. Aim for the glowing bit and press the trigger. That's how lasers are supposed to be used. A properly sighted laser 'halos' the front sight at the sighted distance (and provides a sun-spot like background at closer distances) thus providing a distinct aiming point.

Lasers can also be used for getting accurate hits from non-traditional positions (hip fire, etc.) Not ideal, but that adds utility to the gun.

Now, lasers change to target focus-type shooting when used in conjunction with the MRDS, you're looking for the dot in the window and the laser dot - they should overlap, they overlap, press the trigger, boom. It's an aiming point on an aiming point (maybe even with a third if you use iron sights that are 6 o'clock and your MRDS and laser are sighted to sit right on top of the sights). Sometimes when shooting, you lose the dot. So you have to go back looking for it. In this case, you might find the MRDS dot first or the laser grip dot first (or if you're like me, you tend to track the damn front sight and find it first and then you fight to find the damn dot still), when looking for the dot.

Another of the issues that occurs with MRDS is dot washout. A green laser provides a redundant dot to look for 'inside' the MRDS window that is easier to see and that is not washed out like the MRDS dot is. You're still looking through the glass for the dot, but you've now got one dot and a backup dot to look for.

As for up-close shooting with the MRDS, it is true that it can be trained out, but it is worth mentioning and bearing in mind, that these hardware solutions require software patches to get to run properly. It's important that we recognize that no hardware solution is a panacea. MRDS-equipped guns work great for many things, high precision, distance, shots are one of them. But by virtue of the way that the current crop of MRDSes work (not counting the Acro since it isn't really out yet), you may hunt for the dot when you perform a push-out. I don't really hunt for the front sight on a non-MRDS equipped gun, my eyes are focused on it from the instant the gun enters into my peripheral vision and comes up. That said, that's another place where the laser can help. With the gun out and coming up, you can see your own green dot and know wherever it is, the dot is, which speeds things up quite a bit.

There is no "focus switching" in these scenarios. There should never be "focus switching' for lasers. With sights, it's a front sight focus, dot acts as illuminated aiming point, with dot sight, target focus, find the dots, overlay them, press the trigger. Only in the scenarios where you use the dot from a non-traditional position might there be "focus switching" (and only in the iron sights + dot scenario).

[El Cid]

My G19 is an excellent General purpose pistol. Is there a Special purpose pistol that would answer better?

That's my question.

And it’s a logical question. 10 years ago many of us would have recommended a long slide pistol for the sight radius and controllability. Think G17L or G34. With red dots now a shortened slide is not only ok but has an advantage. Throw a comp on it and you have what I would want in your scenario.

Regarding lasers, if you go that route I’d wait for the Surefire XH55G. I could live with a TLR-2 HL Green, bit generally prefer SF and they moved the laser above the light.

[YVK]

Good dude that shoots pretty good too! The fact that he’s on P-F should have been a clue.

As should have been the fact that he was shooting weekly and was a B class. As if the latter was a small achievement.


My contribution to this thread would be to thank Feudist for signing up for this responsibility of protecting children and to agree with everyone who recommended an RDS. After three years with Tanfos and Shadows and less then two months with an RDS enabled Glock, there is no question in my mind what I would've chosen to make a shot in a bystander rich environment.
I also don't think that this is a threat management responsibility that requires a threat management gun.

[Lon]

So, let's bear a couple of things in mind.

Lasers, when used in conjunction with iron sights only - are not for target/dot focused shooting. They should be sighted in at the distance the iron sights are sighted to. The laser acts like a "beacon" for your front sight. Imagine shooting a blank black piece of paper and you're aiming for the center, you kind of get there, but it's not so precise, since the front sight is homogeneous with the paper. Now, take that piece of paper and put a white dot in the center, it's easier to aim at the center, right? Now, imagine that in low/moderate/dim light that the center of that target glows like the red or green beacon on a cellphone tower to alert planes. Aim for the glowing bit and press the trigger. That's how lasers are supposed to be used. A properly sighted laser 'halos' the front sight at the sighted distance (and provides a sun-spot like background at closer distances) thus providing a distinct aiming point.

Lasers can also be used for getting accurate hits from non-traditional positions (hip fire, etc.) Not ideal, but that adds utility to the gun.

Now, lasers change to target focus-type shooting when used in conjunction with the MRDS, you're looking for the dot in the window and the laser dot - they should overlap, they overlap, press the trigger, boom. It's an aiming point on an aiming point (maybe even with a third if you use iron sights that are 6 o'clock and your MRDS and laser are sighted to sit right on top of the sights). Sometimes when shooting, you lose the dot. So you have to go back looking for it. In this case, you might find the MRDS dot first or the laser grip dot first (or if you're like me, you tend to track the damn front sight and find it first and then you fight to find the damn dot still), when looking for the dot.

Another of the issues that occurs with MRDS is dot washout. A green laser provides a redundant dot to look for 'inside' the MRDS window that is easier to see and that is not washed out like the MRDS dot is. You're still looking through the glass for the dot, but you've now got one dot and a backup dot to look for.

As for up-close shooting with the MRDS, it is true that it can be trained out, but it is worth mentioning and bearing in mind, that these hardware solutions require software patches to get to run properly. It's important that we recognize that no hardware solution is a panacea. MRDS-equipped guns work great for many things, high precision, distance, shots are one of them. But by virtue of the way that the current crop of MRDSes work (not counting the Acro since it isn't really out yet), you may hunt for the dot when you perform a push-out. I don't really hunt for the front sight on a non-MRDS equipped gun, my eyes are focused on it from the instant the gun enters into my peripheral vision and comes up. That said, that's another place where the laser can help. With the gun out and coming up, you can see your own green dot and know wherever it is, the dot is, which speeds things up quite a bit.

There is no "focus switching" in these scenarios. There should never be "focus switching' for lasers. With sights, it's a front sight focus, dot acts as illuminated aiming point, with dot sight, target focus, find the dots, overlay them, press the trigger. Only in the scenarios where you use the dot from a non-traditional position might there be "focus switching" (and only in the iron sights + dot scenario).

RR,

I’m curious as to where this “how to use a laser” came from? Is this something you came up with or did someone teach it to you? I carried a CT equipped Sig for years on duty and put who knows how many thousands of rounds through it in low to no light situations and used them in a completely different manner than what you advocate.

[03RN]

Good thread.

You're not going to find a huge difference in accuracy between service sized handguns. Shoot ability at speed maybe but that's personal preference.

I think the rmr has some serious benefits that would help as a SRO.

[RevolverRob]

RR,

I’m curious as to where this “how to use a laser” came from? Is this something you came up with or did someone teach it to you? I carried a CT equipped Sig for years on duty and put who knows how many thousands of rounds through it in low to no light situations and used them in a completely different manner than what you advocate.

That's info that I got directly from Lewis Danielson (founder of Crimson Trace), with respect to using irons + laser. That's how he envisioned the use of them. That and of course the ability to make non-traditional shots more easily. I'm not sure if that's still what they're advocating at CTC, and it must have been roughly a dozen years ago that Lewis explained to me that's how he envisioned their use. But that's how I have always used them and I've found them to be very effective in that manner.

[Lon]

That's info that I got directly from Lewis Danielson (founder of Crimson Trace), with respect to using irons + laser. That's how he envisioned the use of them. That and of course the ability to make non-traditional shots more easily. I'm not sure if that's still what they're advocating at CTC, and it must have been roughly a dozen years ago that Lewis explained to me that's how he envisioned their use. But that's how I have always used them and I've found them to be very effective in that manner.

That’s interesting. I was entirely self taught and have some very different ideas on the use of the laser. I don’t want to derail this thread so I may start another one on the laser topic.

[Default.mp3]

Regarding lasers, if you go that route I’d wait for the Surefire XH55G. I could live with a TLR-2 HL Green, bit generally prefer SF and they moved the laser above the light.The Steiner SBAL-PL is another option, and it is available on GovX for those that qualify. Duty holster choices will be rough, for sure, but the same can be said about most of the WML/laser combos, unless you go with SureFire's MasterFire system, which I've been told isn't quite durable enough for patrol use ("insufficient retention without both being used", according to Bill Blowers), though an SRO's needs is probably just fine.

[rob_s]

Where we see the red dot fail is at super fast, super close shots.

Who is “we”? Where is your data showing a reduction in speed at close range due to the use of the dot? What defines “super close”? How much time/how many rounds have you spent using an RDS-equipped pistol?

[JHC]

My G19 is an excellent General purpose pistol. Is there a Special purpose pistol that would answer better?

That's my question.

Do you have any history with a high end 1911? :D

[DpdG]

My G19 is an excellent General purpose pistol. Is there a Special purpose pistol that would answer better?

That's my question.

The above circumstances are exactly what the B&T USW was designed for- an easily carried long gun for cops away from vehicles/lock boxes/etc... Unfortunately the Spinx based version is a logistical nightmare, as the non-reciprocal RDS seems much preferable than the P320 version using a standard RX slide.

[Rex G]

Starting an SRO job inside an elementary school as my retirement job. The gig was created specifically as a response to the vile school shooter craze.

Every since I first heard about it I wondered: what pistol/configuration would be the best? I have carte blanche as to make/model/caliber/load.

I'll have a rifle-in my car. The threat profile is mostly a single assailant, moving fast and bent on murder-suicide.

The circumstances are quite different than Patrol,eg, the extreme downrange and uprange hazard, possibly scores of no-shoots all around, and a substantial increase in engagement ranges. Just look down a modern school hallway sometime.

This inclines me towards an extremely precise, perhaps optically sighted pistol.

I currently carry a G19 that's essentially stock, with typical night sights. I practice weekly(sometimes weakly) and am not a prodigy. I shot my way into "B" class once,by a fraction. Back in 2000-nought-1.Especially at ranges past 10 yards I am suffering from failing eyesight and never really focusing on training at that range. In my career on the screet, contact to 7-10 yards was far and away most likely.

And the damned no-shoots just weren't so little.

I've been watching the RMR movement with great interest. I have a S&W MP22C with a FF# on it and can see the benefits. So installing a RMR onto my newest Glock 19FS is a definite possibility.

I thought about a G34 for the longer sight radius and started a thread about it, but the consensus was muddled.

I have carried some sort of Glock as my duty/off duty piece since 1994-but if there's a better mousetrap in these specific circumstances ...I'll drop it like a bad habit.

Hell, I thought about thumb cocking a 6" .357 if that's what getting a quick decisive hit takes.


The revolver thing was a bit of a joke-"ideas out of the box"-if you will.



I did not see the 6” .357 revolver as a joke. That just might be my solution, in a scenario requiring a handgun, rather than a rifle.

Just don’t thumb-cock it. “Fear not the DA shot,” said Ernest Langdon. The DA shot is my idea of best solution, for the fast, reflexive shot, as well as the very deliberate shot.

I say this as one who started handgunning with a 1911, thinking revolvers were quaint, and originally planned to carry revolvers just long enough to get me through the mandated DA-revolver-only academy and rookie year on the street, late 1983 to early 1985. Well, thanks to excellent instructors, and plenty of hard work, I was soon shooting a DA revolver better than I had ever shot a 1911. Not until some time during the 1997 to 2000 time frame did I finally manage to catch-up, and finally shoot a 1911 as well as a DA revolver.

Notably, I found I had to train much more with a 1911, to keep my level of skill even with my skill level with a DA revolver.

This was/is not an auto-versus-revolver thing. My duty pistol from 2004 to 2015, was a DAK P229R, which I could shoot as well as a 1911, with less training, and about equally as well as a DA sixgun. I shot the DAK as DA-only, letting the trigger fully return for longer DA-equivalent stroke. “Fear not the DA shot.”

I only got away from the DAK SIG because the recoil characteristics, caused by the high bore axis, and then-mandated .40 duty ammo, were starting to really hurt my gimpy thumb, hand, and wrist. I switched to a 9mm G17 duty pistol as soon as it was OK’ed by the chief in late 2015; otherwise, I would have finished my career with the DAK SIG. A subsequent rule change allowed me to again carry a .45 ACP 1911 while on duty, in 2016. (A full-sized, all-steel 1911 hurts me less than an alloy-framed P229 shooting .40 Snap & Whip.)

My final act as a police officer was working the Houston 2018 Marathon, with a Glock in my duty holster, and a full-sized Les Baer 1911 “hand rifle” as “back-up.” Both were on my qual card as “primary duty pistols,” but I could shoot the 1911 better than a Glock, at longer range. (Yes, marathons are high-risk assigments, as we saw on Patriot’s Day, in Boston.)

[feudist]

Do you have any history with a high end 1911? :D

Not really.

I shot a Les Baer TR in a match once.

I bought a Colt in 2011 because it was the Centennial.

But not being allowed to carry them, I never kept interest.

I've toyed with this idea for this assignment.

What are your thoughts?

[JHC]

Not really.

I shot a Les Baer TR in a match once.

I bought a Colt in 2011 because it was the Centennial.

But not being allowed to carry them, I never kept interest.

I've toyed with this idea for this assignment.

What are your thoughts?

IDK if it would be worth starting from scratch with them and the expense of the high ends could make RDS and slide cutting seem like a bargain. (Although the two TRPs I've had and my current LB Operator run with customs for reliability and precision). But storied units in LE and the Army that had mission profiles that demanded great precision used them for many many years for that reason.

IMO this is not a mission to train for by trying to lower one's splits. It's one to train to hit tight targets in compressed time frames. A great many blooded fighters have found a 1911 delivers in that arena like only a few others.

That pitch for "God's gun" out of the way, the most cost efficient path IMO would be a G17 or 34 (because it's near universal folks can shoot them with greater precision than the 19, exceptions noted) and cases and cases of ammo. It's the gun you are already highly familiar with. Then a training regimen that dispensed with generous "A zones". It would emphasize the fundamentals that drive precision to "reduced A zones" and smaller.

[feudist]

IDK if it would be worth starting from scratch with them and the expense of the high ends could make RDS and slide cutting seem like a bargain. (Although the two TRPs I've had and my current LB Operator run with customs for reliability and precision). But storied units in LE and the Army that had mission profiles that demanded great precision used them for many many years for that reason.

IMO this is not a mission to train for by trying to lower one's splits. It's one to train to hit tight targets in compressed time frames. A great many blooded fighters have found a 1911 delivers in that arena like only a few others.

That pitch for "God's gun" out of the way, the most cost efficient path IMO would be a G17 or 34 (because it's near universal folks can shoot them with greater precision than the 19, exceptions noted) and cases and cases of ammo. It's the gun you are already highly familiar with. Then a training regimen that dispensed with generous "A zones". It would emphasize the fundamentals that drive precision to "reduced A zones" and smaller.

Nailed it.

I would only add the probability of longer than usual engagement ranges.

[YVK]

Who is “we”? Where is your data showing a reduction in speed at close range due to the use of the dot? What defines “super close”? How much time/how many rounds have you spent using an RDS-equipped pistol?

Speaking for myself: my data is my Shotmaxx timer, super close for me is a full sized USPSA target out to 7 yards, I have 4000 rounds through mine since the beginning of the year (3000 in last three months) mixed up with 10,000 rounds through an iron sighted gun. I just was speaking to GJM yesterday, commenting that with these types of targets my gun is already out and would have already been shooting with irons yet often times I am still looking for the dot. GJM commented that he doesn't, and I know that he isn't slowed by the dot at any distance, but I also know that 3000 rounds for him could be a week or two of shooting, depending on his schedule.
A caveat for me is that my irons gun is different from my dot gun, so obviously my index with the dot is not as worked out. Soon enough I'll have an RDS slide to mount on my irons gun frame. Will be interesting to see what happens.

P.S. Needless to say, the FAST test [referring to Jedi's video that HCM posted] is not an example of a "close range". Even with the disparity of experience with the dot and irons, shooting 2 inch circles or 3x5 cards at 7 yards is much easier and faster with the dot for me. RDS enabled Glock with a full sized grip is what I'd choose if I wanted to score high on the FAST.

[rob_s]

Question that seems relevant to the discussion...

For those that argue that spending the cost of the hardware plus the required transition training be better spent in ammo and getting better with the existing hardware, how do you suggest dealing with eyesight issues? Ignoring, of course, the argument that maybe someone with eyesight issues shouldn't be engaged in a profession requiring "high percentage shots". or, said another way, for those of you making the "shoot more" argument, do you yourself deal with any eyesight challenges and if so how do you deal with them?

[rob_s]

Speaking for myself: my data is my Shotmaxx timer, super close for me is a full sized USPSA target out to 7 yards, I have 4000 rounds through mine since the beginning of the year (3000 in last three months) mixed up with 10,000 rounds through an iron sighted gun. I just was speaking to GJM yesterday, commenting that with these types of targets my gun is already out and would have already been shooting with irons yet often times I am still looking for the dot. GJM commented that he doesn't, and I know that he isn't slowed by the dot at any distance, but I also know that 3000 rounds for him could be a week or two of shooting, depending on his schedule.
A caveat for me is that my irons gun is different from my dot gun, so obviously my index with the dot is not as worked out. Soon enough I'll have an RDS slide to mount on my irons gun frame. Will be interesting to see what happens.

P.S. Needless to say, the FAST test [referring to Jedi's video that HCM posted] is not an example of a "close range". Even with the disparity of experience with the dot and irons, shooting 2 inch circles or 3x5 cards at 7 yards is much easier and faster with the dot for me. RDS enabled Glock with a full sized grip is what I'd choose if I wanted to score high on the FAST.

I had a very early Bowie M&P with a Deltapoint on it. I think I may have written an article about it, but I can't recall now.

Instinctively finding the dot was a major struggle for me, but until now I never really considered that it was the fact that I was shooting Glocks at the time and the RDS was on a M&P. Not sure why that didn't occur to me back then, especially since at the time I was always strongly advocating people to stick with one platform if they didn't have the time to train on, and beocme proficient with, two (which very few people seem to).

[JHC]

Question that seems relevant to the discussion...

For those that argue that spending the cost of the hardware plus the required transition training be better spent in ammo and getting better with the existing hardware, how do you suggest dealing with eyesight issues? Ignoring, of course, the argument that maybe someone with eyesight issues shouldn't be engaged in a profession requiring "high percentage shots". or, said another way, for those of you making the "shoot more" argument, do you yourself deal with any eyesight challenges and if so how do you deal with them?


Great question. I think it depends on severity and the nature of the vision issue. DocGKR has posted many times about his which were caused by a head injury in a bike accident. That's one thing and he's sorted that out with the RDS.

Normal aging eyesight can go either way (irons or optics). I'm both seriously nearsighted, plus old. With monovision contacts I can under correct my dominant eye and see a sharp front sight albeit the target gets blurrier every year.

When I shoot with my progressive multi-focal glasses (Varilux Physio) my front sight will not be sharp and I focus on the target. And the target is razor sharp.



Back in March I shot this at 50 yards wearing my glasses and focused on the B8.


30636


I've managed to shoot equally for precision with each and I'm conflicted about which I prefer. I'm increasingly leaning to going all in the glasses and target focus because the acuity of the Varilux product is jaw dropping.


There are several target focus shooters here that have written about it. I think Stoeger is (but not 100% sure).


RDS have great potential and are the future for sure. I'm not convinced the future is now yet unless one really has to use one.

[GuanoLoco]

Nailed it.

I would only add the probability of longer than usual engagement ranges.

I would ask: Have you considered quantifying your requirements and expectations? I'm going to ask because you had no more difficulty nailing 3x5 cards at speed at 7 yards than you did nailing 8" plates at 30 yards (albeit slower) IIRC. Plus, you were doing it with your "old" glasses.

What level of difficulty of shot, in terms of size + distance + time-frame, do you have in mind? I would think that understanding your requirements would be helpful.

For example, if the requirements exceed the mechanical accuracy of the pistol + ammo, that's an inherent problem that can be addressed.

If vision + irons are the limiting factor, that is another issue. Corrective lenses, different iron sights, MRDS are all options. Practice at 40-50 yards would make sense as well.

If distance at SPEED is the challenge, then I'd suggest training. Dot Drills, 2 A's @ 25 yards in 2s, etc.

Apply any or all of the above - and whatever I didn't think of.

[El Cid]

IDK if it would be worth starting from scratch with them and the expense of the high ends could make RDS and slide cutting seem like a bargain. (Although the two TRPs I've had and my current LB Operator run with customs for reliability and precision). But storied units in LE and the Army that had mission profiles that demanded great precision used them for many many years for that reason.




I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.

[feudist]

I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.

A lesson I learned the hard way a couple of weeks ago when I pulled my G19 out of it's holster to clean it and the slide fell to the floor.

Now it has a brother and they have an extra, extra complete spare parts kit.

[JHC]

I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.

I agree completely regarding the fleets of pistols those agencies ran. It's an enthusiast's pistol now.

[feudist]

I would ask: Have you considered quantifying your requirements and expectations? I'm going to ask because you had no more difficulty nailing 3x5 cards at speed at 7 yards than you did nailing 8" plates at 30 yards (albeit slower) IIRC. Plus, you were doing it with your "old" glasses.

What level of difficulty of shot, in terms of size + distance + time-frame, do you have in mind? I would think that understanding your requirements would be helpful.

For example, if the requirements exceed the mechanical accuracy of the pistol + ammo, that's an inherent problem that can be addressed.

If vision + irons are the limiting factor, that is another issue. Corrective lenses, different iron sights, MRDS are all options. Practice at 40-50 yards would make sense as well.

If distance at SPEED is the challenge, then I'd suggest training. Dot Drills, 2 A's @ 25 yards in 2s, etc.

Apply any or all of the above - and whatever I didn't think of.

A zone hits at on a moving target at distances up to 50 yards while sorting the no shoots(also moving) that are both downrange and uprange of the target.

The fastest possible engagement time since every half second delay equals another killed or crippled child.

The range required could even be higher, as I've seen 75 yard hallways in schools, and the target could well be a head if the shooter has a vest(I'm not aware of any

who had them, though)

Followup shots to burn him down.

Doing this after a 50 yard sprint.

Multiple mass casualty bags pre-staged.

?

Clearly, whatever I go with, I need to double my practice regime and start shooting matches. Shooting on the clock with you watching me reminded me of the

valuable pressure that provides.

[GuanoLoco]

I'd say that is a pretty high bar.

Movers at distance, eh? I guess I should have broken out the 8" steel swinger with 8" steel activator that I had in the back of my SUV. I usually set it up with a barrel stack in front of the mechanism, for example blocking the middle-left for this picture and only allowing intermittent exposures on the right. We could have shot that from 10 out to 30 yards easily.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5958ca81e4fcb5168c587cb0/5958cd1936e5d3644bb949a0/595b6a03414fb51e285e8577/1499163140990/12799227_10208962734252715_8680009087165244293_n.j pg?format=1000w

I have the trainer version where the plate is fixed, allowing you to re-engage it repeatedly as opposed to the plate falling off after the first hit.

[feudist]

I'd say that is a pretty high bar.

Movers at distance, eh? I guess I should have broken out the 8" steel swinger with 8" steel activator that I had in the back of my SUV. I usually set it up with a barrel stack in front of the mechanism, for example blocking the middle-left for this picture and only allowing intermittent exposures on the right. We could have shot that from 10 out to 30 yards easily.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5958ca81e4fcb5168c587cb0/5958cd1936e5d3644bb949a0/595b6a03414fb51e285e8577/1499163140990/12799227_10208962734252715_8680009087165244293_n.j pg?format=1000w

I have the trainer version where the plate is fixed, allowing you to re-engage it repeatedly as opposed to the plate falling off after the first hit.

Nice. You wore me out as it was!

Yes. It is a high bar. Like, rifle high.

Does the HandRifle(all rights reserved) exist? It is similar in concept to SOCOM's "Offensive Handgun"

Does combination of stability, trigger, sights(optics or sight radius) and reliability exist?

[Mitch]

Nice. You wore me out as it was!

Yes. It is a high bar. Like, rifle high.

Does the HandRifle(all rights reserved) exist? It is similar in concept to SOCOM's "Offensive Handgun"

Does combination of stability, trigger, sights(optics or sight radius) and reliability exist?

Agreed it’s a very high bar. That list says whatever your version of a Roland Special is to me. I might wait 6 months and see how the Aimpoint Acro shakes out.

Good luck and thanks for doing what you’re doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WobblyPossum]

A zone hits at on a moving target at distances up to 50 yards while sorting the no shoots(also moving) that are both downrange and uprange of the target.

The fastest possible engagement time since every half second delay equals another killed or crippled child.

The range required could even be higher, as I've seen 75 yard hallways in schools, and the target could well be a head if the shooter has a vest(I'm not aware of any

who had them, though)

Followup shots to burn him down.

Doing this after a 50 yard sprint.

Multiple mass casualty bags pre-staged.

?

Clearly, whatever I go with, I need to double my practice regime and start shooting matches. Shooting on the clock with you watching me reminded me of the

valuable pressure that provides.

You've described marksmanship problems that would challenge world champion shooters when using a pistol. The shooting problem becomes a lot less difficult with a rifle. I know I'd hate to be walking around all day wearing a backpack with a folded AR pistol or SBR in it but I'd be pretty glad to have one if faced with a 50y head shot on a moving target surrounded by no-shoots. Would something like that be practical for your position? I've never seen an SRO who kept a small AR on their person at all times but is that because of impracticality or just because of policies, societal expectations, etc? Dagga Boy has spoken about police responses being something along the lines of driving 100mph to get into a rifle fight with a pistol. As an SRO responsible for a single school, you have the opportunity to bring a rifle to the rifle fight if you're willing to wear a backpack whenever outside of your office (assuming they give you an office).

[feudist]

You've described marksmanship problems that would challenge world champion shooters when using a pistol. The shooting problem becomes a lot less difficult with a rifle. I know I'd hate to be walking around all day wearing a backpack with a folded AR pistol or SBR in it but I'd be pretty glad to have one if faced with a 50y head shot on a moving target surrounded by no-shoots. Would something like that be practical for your position? I've never seen an SRO who kept a small AR on their person at all times but is that because of impracticality or just because of policies, societal expectations, etc? Dagga Boy has spoken about police responses being something along the lines of driving 100mph to get into a rifle fight with a pistol. As an SRO responsible for a single school, you have the opportunity to bring a rifle to the rifle fight if you're willing to wear a backpack whenever outside of your office (assuming they give you an office).

I'll have a rifle available, but probably locked in my car. I don't yet know exactly which school I'm assigned to yet(there are close to 35 possibilities. I think

best case I could secure it in an office, possibly.

Yeah the problem is world class, and I sure ain't. That's why I'd like every possible advantage in a Special Purpose pistol.

[STI]

An 8.5” 300BO shooting 110gr supersonics with a Law folder, an Aimpoint, and 20rd mag would fit in a pretty small bag

[BN]

https://dawsonprecision.com/warren-tactical-glock-tactical-fixed-sight-set-tritium-rear-tritium-front-2-lamp-system-for-long-slides/

30644

I have these sights on several Glock 17's. With the .245 tall sight they hit behind the dot. With my old guy vision I can see the sights pretty well and it is fast and easy to put the big dot where you want the bullet to go. It's very instinctive for me.

I would suggest a Glock 17, that you would already be familiar with, and these sights and a lot of practice hitting smaller targets on demand. Sound like you are already ahead of most who are in your position. Having a Glock, that is nothing special to the general public, seems like a positive.

[Casual Friday]

Some thread drift here and I apologize.

I’ve taken a few of Saurez’s Pistol classes in AZ as disclosure going on 8 to 10 years ago. Not a supporter or detractor. He is what he is.

I get it. Saurez is definitely chasing the cash and his history of choices is not so good.

But he has seen/touched/heard that elephant we all talk about here. I would suggest that there is value in what he has written or taught and be careful not to dismiss the lessons because of the flaws.

Yeager has said a lot of things I agree with. Doesn't mean I'll go searching his opinion out.


Frankly, I dismiss him because he's historically been a contrarian for the sake of selling something different while simultaneously elitist about his methods and choices. Put simply, "Pick and do what I pick and do, because I pick and do it". Last time I was on warriortalk, some many years ago, he also referred to himself as Tribal Warlord or something asinine like that. None of that is my style.

He was balls deep into AK's when nobody but him, me, Hizzie, and like 4 other people were shooting them. Once they started gaining popularity what once was "excellence" was no longer "excellence".




And Suarez is what he is, his site is full of him contradicting himself when the dollar gets in the way. Yes I believe he is simply rebranding parts others make, and warriortalk is full of fanboys, but there are diamonds in the rough there. A customized glock delivering more accuracy is is better. I don't have to swallow the koolaide to recognize good ideas, Some of those good ideas are his. I support him with my dollars not because I belive him to be a prince, but he can usually provide what I want now. Quite frankly, I have found his business practices...less than ideal. But the market is there and his niche is there and I want what i want. My interactions have been good as a whole, despite some hiccups, and thus I have no problem using and recommending some of his products.

You do with your dollars what you think you should. I will use mine as I see fit.

pat

I'm sure there is good info there, but if I have to wear waders up past my nipples to sort through the bullshit I'll spend my time researching elsewhere.

[RevolverRob]

Who is “we”? Where is your data showing a reduction in speed at close range due to the use of the dot? What defines “super close”? How much time/how many rounds have you spent using an RDS-equipped pistol?

We - a generic term to describe a group. A number of folks have reported - at least initially - slower shots at distances of > 7 yards, because of dot hunting.

My data are from my own shot timers, where I was consistently two-tenths slower on first shot with a dot at > 7 yards. And anecdotally the discussion other folks (primarily here) discuss.

Not as much time as I probably should have. I've done about 5,000 rounds and probably triple that in dry-fire work. I think part of my issue was I was working a different platform at the time as well.

___

The impression that I get is, the 'shorter distance speed problem' is a software problem to a degree. The dot is sometimes simply not there when you press-out, if you hunt for it, you slow down. If you can accept "just roll with it" when you press-out speed seems to go up significantly. In other words, trusting the dot will be there. I, personally, couldn't get over the mental hump and kept searching for the dot. I think you just have to train out of it.

___

With regards to vision. I've got 20/45 vision in my dominant eye and 20/50 in my non-dominant eye. I'm also extremely myopic and have a high degree of astigmatism. I am not able to make out the front sight on any handgun with my glasses off, unless it is supremely large and distinct from the rear sight (which kind of defeats the purpose of aligning sights). But I can make out out a red-dot quite easily (I only suffer minor 'dot bloom'). A laser also helps tremendously when used like I described before (where it halos the front sight, it acts as a beacon for the front sight for me).

If I were in a scenario (like being a police officer/SRO) where I had to wear corrective lenses and may have to take long distance shots. Either contacts or - sports goggles, would be my eye wear choices. The goggles look goofy as shit, but offer considerable eye protection and stay on your head much better than glasses. I'd seriously consider a laser-MRDS equipped platform too. Anything that shadows the front sight (like a WML) also helps me see it so I can reliably take shots at longer distances. Sports goggles also work great for shooting sports when you wear muffs, the muffs easily go over the rubber strap holding them on and seal quite well (unlike with the arms of glasses). Goggles also work well, if you live someplace cold in the winter, because they seal around the eye sockets, cutting down on fogging and also cold getting in (sucks so hard to feel your eyeballs freeze).

[feudist]

There's a lot of support for the RDS and I've been watching the RDS threads over the last few years as reported in this forum and others.

I am definitely considering doing this to one of my Glocks. It seems to be the only "Arrow, not the Indian " solution that provides Order of Magnitude performance increase.

I train, and I'll even train more- but I want to buy all the points that I can.

[JHC]

There's a lot of support for the RDS and I've been watching the RDS threads over the last few years as reported in this forum and others.

I am definitely considering doing this to one of my Glocks. It seems to be the only "Arrow, not the Indian " solution that provides Order of Magnitude performance increase.

I train, and I'll even train more- but I want to buy all the points that I can.

Perhaps and I know you'll hit it hard.
But what you laid out is not even solvable with a carbine. It's gonna be tactics, closing the distance, and problem solving. ;)

[GuanoLoco]

There's a lot of support for the RDS and I've been watching the RDS threads over the last few years as reported in this forum and others.

I am definitely considering doing this to one of my Glocks. It seems to be the only "Arrow, not the Indian " solution that provides Order of Magnitude performance increase.

I train, and I'll even train more- but I want to buy all the points that I can.

The more I read and think about your requirements, the more I think an stocked SBR or "braced pistol" makes sense.

I think your goals might be a tad high for a mere 2018 technology handgun and mortal skills.

I'm not buying order-of-magnitude performance gains for a Rowland Special class solution - a dude showed up with one at our indoor match the other day. He was competitive but not crushing skilled Production shooters.

I'll grant that the Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) guys are showing 'order-of-magnitude' faster growth in results with respect to time invested, when compared with pistol shooters.

[feudist]

It absolutely is a hellaciously difficult situation.

If possible, I will definitely keep an optically sighted rifle close by. Even multiples if I have an office I can secure.

I like the idea of a braced pistol in a bag. This would be a possible option for predictably higher threat times(assemblies, lunchtime, anytime the kids will

be in bunches)(subnote: what a sick world when discussing the slaughter of small children and the difficulty of protecting them is a thing for public discussion)

[HeavyDuty]

It absolutely is a hellaciously difficult situation.

If possible, I will definitely keep an optically sighted rifle close by. Even multiples if I have an office I can secure.

I like the idea of a braced pistol in a bag. This would be a possible option for predictably higher threat times(assemblies, lunchtime, anytime the kids will

be in bunches)(subnote: what a sick world when discussing the slaughter of small children and the difficulty of protecting them is a thing for public discussion)

If it were me, knowing my eyesight and the ease I have getting hits with my braced PCC and AR pistols, I'd definitely consider it.

[HCM]

The more I read and think about your requirements, the more I think an stocked SBR or "braced pistol" makes sense.

I think your goals might be a tad high for a mere 2018 technology handgun and mortal skills.

I'm not buying order-of-magnitude performance gains for a Rowland Special class solution - a dude showed up with one at our indoor match the other day. He was competitive but not crushing skilled Production shooters.

I'll grant that the Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) guys are showing 'order-of-magnitude' faster growth in results with respect to time invested, when compared with pistol shooters.


I would expect a 10-15% bump with an RS type set up. It’s not magic but every little bit counts.

[ranger]

SIG MPX 9mm pistol with brace or SBR'd. Red dot of your choice.

[HCM]

SIG MPX 9mm pistol with brace or SBR'd. Red dot of your choice.

While the “A” answer from a technical / gun nerd POV it is simply unrealistic to have on your person at all times in the working environment.

[rcbusmc24]

Its a little unorthodox....but what about looking into one of the B&T USW stock sets for a Sig P320.... they are 300 bucks from arms unlimited, plus your tax stamp. Have a kydex holster made and it would give you a "pistol" on your belt that can become a rifle by folding out the stock. All without the need to carry a backpack around with you. Use a optics ready p320 and add a 1000 lumen surefire x300. I don't think it would be better than a real rifle but better than a lot of other options...

[JHC]

Just hit the inbox. Not a pistol but some relevancy to this super complex problem.

"I am firmly against militarizing our domestic law enforcement officers. That’s not what I’m talking about. Cops don’t need to adopt a military methodology for patrol. Police work and a military invasion have different goals. But gunfighting is gunfighting, whether it is in the context of a military battle or if it is a cop taking fire from armed robbers. We should be looking to other disciplines and seeing if we can adopt what works for them in order to improve our survival outcomes."

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/flanking-tactics-for-active-killer-response?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ActiveResponseTraining+%28Act ive+Response+Training%29

[spyderco monkey]

If you could get away with it, a B&T TP9 with Arm brace in a messenger bag would be a great option. 12" folded, ~4lbs loaded. Orders of magnitude more practical accuracy then whats possible for most with a handgun.

https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Screen-Shot-2018-02-13-at-6.57.34-PM.png

[GuanoLoco]

If you could get away with it, a B&T TP9 with Arm brace in a messenger bag would be a great option. 12" folded, ~4lbs loaded. Orders of magnitude more practical accuracy then whats possible for most with a handgun.

Sigh. Not to nitpick but this is a pet peeve.

Orders (100X+)? Really?


or·der of mag·ni·tude
noun
a class in a system of classification determined by size, each class being a number of times (usually ten) greater or smaller than the one before.
"values might be compared by order of magnitude, a staple in making ballpark estimates"

relative size, quantity, quality, etc.
"the new problems were of a different order of magnitude"
the arrangement of a number of items determined by their relative size.
"the items are arranged in ascending order of magnitude"

[Jim Watson]

TVA Brown's Ferry Police have gone to carrying slung carbines - I don't know if they are full or semi - in lieu of pistols.
But then they are guarding a nuclear plant, not a public school where teachers would get even more upset at the sight of a bigger gun.
A long gun stashed conveniently would be reasonable preparation.

Is a SRO a sworn officer? If so, couldn't he be provided with a real SBR instead of an arm rest?

From what I have seen in competition, the optically sighted pistol offers significant advantages. (If it didn't, why is it set off in a separate Division?) But you have to put in the work. People flip flopping from optic to iron sight to get more "trigger time" seldom do as well as the dedicated shooter. I know one (1.0) guy who is fully committed to Carry Optic, both as a competition division and for daily wear. He is very good with it but has been shooting nothing else for some time.

The CO carrier might need the old Fast Draw approach, "a pair and a spare" to be sure of having a working rig to take to work.

Order of magnitude: Factor of 10.
Close order of magnitude: Factor of 2.
Planning estimate: +40%
Quotation estimate: +20%
Decimate: -10%

[Balisong]

Just a thought in terms of training... we know on here of several highly thought of and experienced trainers, but I've seen video and AARs of Gabe White classes that put in some heavy work at shooting at small targets while moving fast or even running. I want to do some training with him anyway, but if I were in your shoes I would put that as a top priority. Maybe you can even get some reimbursement or at least a tax write off on it?

[GuanoLoco]

Unreimbursed business expenses?

[HCM]

TVA Brown's Ferry Police have gone to carrying slung carbines - I don't know if they are full or semi - in lieu of pistols.
But then they are guarding a nuclear plant, not a public school where teachers would get even more upset at the sight of a bigger gun.
A long gun stashed conveniently would be reasonable preparation.

Is a SRO a sworn officer? If so, couldn't he be provided with a real SBR instead of an arm rest?

From what I have seen in competition, the optically sighted pistol offers significant advantages. (If it didn't, why is it set off in a separate Division?) But you have to put in the work. People flip flopping from optic to iron sight to get more "trigger time" seldom do as well as the dedicated shooter. I know one (1.0) guy who is fully committed to Carry Optic, both as a competition division and for daily wear. He is very good with it but has been shooting nothing else for some time.

The CO carrier might need the old Fast Draw approach, "a pair and a spare" to be sure of having a working rig to take to work.

Order of magnitude: Factor of 10.
Close order of magnitude: Factor of 2.
Planning estimate: +40%
Quotation estimate: +20%
Decimate: -10%

All SROs I’m aware of are sworn officers.

A Department can provide SBRs or can authorize personally owned SBRs in places where they are legal.

That’s not the point.

The point is this is not Israel or a nuclear power plant and no one in their right mind is gonna authorize cops at an elementary school walking around with long guns every day. A stashed long gun would need to be secured.

Similarly walking around with a pack or messenger bag may work temporarily with advance warning but advance warning is an exception, not the rule. The “day of days” is usually a “come as you are” event.

[GJM]

When I compare my times and accuracy, shooting similar target arrays with my Glock with a dot vs an eight inch barrel 9mm PCC with a brace, I don’t see enough difference to justify carrying the PCC given both launch 9mm. Now, .300 BLK is a different story.

[Default.mp3]

When I compare my times and accuracy, shooting similar target arrays with my Glock with a dot vs an eight inch barrel 9mm PCC with a brace, I don’t see enough difference to justify carrying the PCC given both launch 9mm. Now, .300 BLK is a different story.But you're also a very proficient pistol shooter. Would this use case hold up for those that aren't?

[GJM]

But you're also a very proficient pistol shooter. Would this use case hold up for those that aren't?

Not sure.

I first heard this sentiment expressed by Brian Nelson and another instructor at TPC. At the time, I was skeptical, because I took it on faith that the PCC with a brace would be far more capable. My testing showed that they were right when it came to my own performance. I think some testing is in order, for an individual considering this choice, especially given the negatives associated with carrying the larger PCC. Now a .300 BLK offers different capability than the pistol or PCC.

[Speederlander]

Just a non-gear thought for this job. Maybe something to keep in mind for how you (physically) position yourself in the school, etc.

If it is known by the students at the school you are there, and if the shooter is a student or a couple of students (aka Columbine), they will likely come for you first. Your first indication something is going down may be the student or students trying to surprise you and remove you from the equation. You are sitting in some side office one morning having coffee and reading a paper after the morning bell sounds and the next thing you know someone is bursting through your door (or just knocking and waiting for you to open it). I would want to make such a "first strike" difficult or impossible. Just a thought.

Maybe I am looking at it with the worst possible take on human nature.

[BN]

The “day of days” is usually a “come as you are” event.

This is very important.

[UNM1136]

Just a non-gear thought for this job. Maybe something to keep in mind for how you (physically) position yourself in the school, etc.

If it is known by the students at the school you are there, and if the shooter is a student or a couple of students (aka Columbine), they will likely come for you first. Your first indication something is going down may be the student or students trying to surprise you and remove you from the equation. You are sitting in some side office one morning having coffee and reading a paper after the morning bell sounds and the next thing you know someone is bursting through your door (or just knocking and waiting for you to open it). I would want to make such a "first strike" difficult or impossible. Just a thought.

Maybe I am looking at it with the worst possible take on human nature.

While good planning, this does not fit profiles based on past incidents. Spending your day in Orange becomes ingrained after a while. In otherwords, he should already be looking at the environment in that manner.

You know, the whole "be polite, be professional, and have a plan....." mantra.

pat

[Speederlander]

While good planning, this does not fit profiles based on past incidents. Spending your day in Orange becomes ingrained after a while. In otherwords, he should already be looking at the environment in that manner.

You know, the whole "be polite, be professional, and have a plan....." mantra.

pat

But how many past incidents actually had an armed guard at the school?

When this stuff happens, it is always a shocking surprise to everyone but the people executing it. If you are a security guard at a school, you will possibly go years with nothing happening that would warrant drawing a weapon. And then one day it happens. It is VERY easy to be taken off-guard, especially if the people planning the attack are aware of the guard and take measures to do something about him (or her). Just my opinion.

[feudist]

But how many past incidents actually had an armed guard at the school?

When this stuff happens, it is always a shocking surprise to everyone but the people executing it. If you are a security guard at a school, you will possibly go years with nothing happening that would warrant drawing a weapon. And then one day it happens. It is VERY easy to be taken off-guard, especially if the people planning the attack are aware of the guard and take measures to do something about him (or her). Just my opinion.

Well, this may be why the Sheriff is only hiring retirees. People who are used to the "hours of of boredom, moments of insanity" paradigm that is LE patrol everywhere.

28 years of this has left some training scars. Hypervigilance, cynicism towards,well, everyone and everything. Weapons within reach at all times. a flattened affect

coupled with a deeply hostile watchfulness. A general lack of desire to interact with people.

It got old.

One thing that appeals to me about this job is the chance to interact with innocence again. Maybe I can walk in from this ledge.

[HCM]

Just a non-gear thought for this job. Maybe something to keep in mind for how you (physically) position yourself in the school, etc.

If it is known by the students at the school you are there, and if the shooter is a student or a couple of students (aka Columbine), they will likely come for you first. Your first indication something is going down may be the student or students trying to surprise you and remove you from the equation. You are sitting in some side office one morning having coffee and reading a paper after the morning bell sounds and the next thing you know someone is bursting through your door (or just knocking and waiting for you to open it). I would want to make such a "first strike" difficult or impossible. Just a thought.

Maybe I am looking at it with the worst possible take on human nature.

That is a legitimate thought in general, but given the OP wil be permenantly aaaigned to an elementary school the shooter is unlikely to be a student, though it could be someone familiar with the school.

[HCM]

Well, this may be why the Sheriff is only hiring retirees. People who are used to the "hours of of boredom, moments of insanity" paradigm that is LE patrol everywhere.

28 years of this has left some training scars. Hypervigilance, cynicism towards,well, everyone and everything. Weapons within reach at all times. a flattened affect

coupled with a deeply hostile watchfulness. A general lack of desire to interact with people.

It got old.

One thing that appeals to me about this job is the chance to interact with innocence again. Maybe I can walk in from this ledge.

Your Sheriffs thinking on this matches that of the U.S. Marshals Service in hiring retirees for security postitions at federal courthouses. Someone experienced enough to both consider it a “good day” when nothing happens and bring the thunder if does.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I’d be looking for a way to bring the long gun inside. What you’re describing is rifle work and there is no substitute for a rifle.


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[feudist]

I’d be looking for a way to bring the long gun inside. What you’re describing is rifle work and there is no substitute for a rifle.


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Couldn't agree more...but this is the hand I'm dealt. Think about it, an elementary school teacher is probably the softest of the soft hearted.

[Vista461]

I was an SRO for 3 1/2 years at middle and elementary schools. I was based in the middle school and went to the elementary school as needed. I never found a good way to have a rifle in the building that would help. If I had it locked in the office, that was really only good during the little time I spent in there and it wasn’t much better than being in the squad.

I knew that if something big happened it was going to be me and whatever I had on me until the cavalry got there. My radio pretty much only worked if I was near a window, so I always kept a phone on me and knew staff was good at calling in reinforcements via phone if they saw something. Less than ideal, but it was what it was. In my case, the chance of getting surprised in my office was slim since all the admin offices and mine where inside a locked area you needed a key card to get into. So unauthorized entry would likely be noisy. Didn’t spend a ton of time in there though, I was usually walking the halls or monitoring lunches etc.

I work at another department now.

[HCM]

I was an SRO for 3 1/2 years at middle and elementary schools. I was based in the middle school and went to the elementary school as needed. I never found a good way to have a rifle in the building that would help. If I had it locked in the office, that was really only good during the little time I spent in there and it wasn’t much better than being in the squad.

I knew that if something big happened it was going to be me and whatever I had on me until the cavalry got there. My radio pretty much only worked if I was near a window, so I always kept a phone on me and knew staff was good at calling in reinforcements via phone if they saw something. Less than ideal, but it was what it was. In my case, the chance of getting surprised in my office was slim since all the admin offices and mine where inside a locked area you needed a key card to get into. So unauthorized entry would likely be noisy. Didn’t spend a ton of time in there though, I was usually walking the halls or monitoring lunches etc.

I work at another department now.

When did y’all switch to key cards ? Was the whole school key card or just certain areas?

Last case I worked involving a school Missing keys and unauthorized people with access to keys were a big issue, one the local school district PD hoped to solve by switching to key cards.

[Vista461]

The switch to cards was done before I started there. The card would get you in the building and into the admin office area. The rest of the school used regular keys. To my knowledge they didn’t have any issues with the key cards going missing.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Couldn't agree more...but this is the hand I'm dealt. Think about it, an elementary school teacher is probably the softest of the soft hearted.

Someone needs to explain to these people you have a job to do, though. Do you have an office at the school? If you do I see no reason the rifle can’t be secured in a locker in your office... it’s out of sight and out of mind.


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[UNM1136]

But how many past incidents actually had an armed guard at the school?

When this stuff happens, it is always a shocking surprise to everyone but the people executing it. If you are a security guard at a school, you will possibly go years with nothing happening that would warrant drawing a weapon. And then one day it happens. It is VERY easy to be taken off-guard, especially if the people planning the attack are aware of the guard and take measures to do something about him (or her). Just my opinion.

Not saying you are wrong, saying that those factors should be largely mitigated by experience, training, and mindset. Yes, a bad guy taking out a good guy before going on a killing spree is a foreseeable risk. Yes, it makes sense to consider the possibility. I was a SRO almost immediately (weeks) after Columbine. You could reasonably call me an SRO for the last 16 years. EVERYONE is treated politely and professionally, and dealt with from a position of advantage in the event this guy asking for directions wants to jump me, or this guy who missed the stop sign is actually fleeing a robbery, or the guy telling me he just got beat up off campus is a wanted murderer from another state.

There have been plenty of incidents with good guys at school...most times it helped, sometimes it didnt.

pat

[JAH 3rd]

I post this article just to show how quickly things can change even when an inmate is escorted by DOC officers and deputies. Events happened quickly here.


https://www.roanoke-chowannewsherald.com/2006/07/13/one-dead-one-injured-in-courtroom-shooting/

[feudist]

So today I found out that we are authorized to carry dot sighted pistols. I got to handle a Deputies RMR ZEV.

Sold.

At least on trying it out. I'm going to have my 19FS milled for an RMR.

So who to send it to?

Who are the trusted guys with quick turnaround?

[HCM]

Someone needs to explain to these people you have a job to do, though. Do you have an office at the school? If you do I see no reason the rifle can’t be secured in a locker in your office... it’s out of sight and out of mind.


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This has been addressed several times in this thread.

A rifle in a locker in an office is just like a rifle in a car in the parking lot. In an active shooter situation it may as well be on the moon.

[HCM]

So today I found out that we are authorized to carry dot sighted pistols. I got to handle a Deputies RMR ZEV.

Sold.

At least on trying it out. I'm going to have my 19FS milled for an RMR.

So who to send it to?

Who are the trusted guys with quick turnaround?

ATEI is the gold standard.

L&M Precision also has a great reputation.

Either is good if you are sure you want an RMR.

L&M can also mill your 19FS for the unity tactical ATOM system, a modular system which is stronger and lets the optic sit lower than the Glock MOS.

[GuanoLoco]

If you want to stay local, I pinged a bud of mine who is a machinist but not set up for it at the moment.

He mentioned JP at http://www.jpprecisiongunsmithing.com on Oxford, AL.

[UNM1136]

Robar gives prority to duty guns, and does the Atom mount....


pat

[bravo7]

Zeroed in Armory did mine in 2 days. Quality work and half the price of these big name companies.....and yes I’ve used them in the past.

[El Cid]

So today I found out that we are authorized to carry dot sighted pistols. I got to handle a Deputies RMR ZEV.

Sold.

At least on trying it out. I'm going to have my 19FS milled for an RMR.

So who to send it to?

Who are the trusted guys with quick turnaround?

Why not wait for the ACRO?

[feudist]

Why not wait for the ACRO?

1-They're not out yet
2-They're not tested
3-There are no smiths mounting them.
4- Most importantly, there are no security holsters out yet.

[SW CQB 45]

L&M did mine in 2016.

He had it in his possession Aug 20, 2016 and it was back to me Oct 25, 2016. Very nice work.

This was it originally
https://i.imgur.com/7wwJFwo.jpg

I recently sold the lower and non RMR slide. This is what it looks like today.

https://i.imgur.com/xomk0es.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hQ9W0jB.jpg


The slide on the G17 (left) was done by ATEi. Very quality job.

https://i.imgur.com/b8hpcsG.jpg