HK DA/SA

[Irelander]

I'm looking at getting an HK P2000 or P30 and I'm looking at their trigger options. I'm pretty set on a V1 light LEM to start out with but I was wondering about V3 HK DA/SA triggers. I've heard not so great things about them here and there but wanted to get a conversation started about it with you good folks. If this topic has been covered before, let me know. I've heard the DA/SA are just kind of meh compared with say Beretta or Sig. So what's the deal with them? Are they worth investing in or is LEM the trigger option to get?

[RoyGBiv]

I liked the DA/SA P2KSK... Training for 2 different trigger pulls is not impossible, but you may find it not your preference.

I mostly liked it for the AIWB safety factor of the heavier first shot, but have switched to a G17 with Gadget. I find carrying the G17 much more comfortable.

The one annoying thing about the HK DA/SA carried AIWB (right handed) is the need to de-horn the decocker or use a holster with body guard. I found the decock lever very pokie (not pokey :)). Also, I have a lot of t-shirts with small, unexplained holes at decocker level. Never found a shirt caught in the lever, so, may have been a hammer edge causing the trouble.

[Doc_Glock]

I like my HK DA/SAs better than their LEM counterparts personally.

They all get a light firing pin block spring (part #209296) which puts the trigger pulls in the 8#/3.5# range.

You just need to decide if you want a DA/SA or a LEM trigger.

[hufnagel]

TDA > LEM :D

fite me!

[einherjarvalk]

Also, I have a lot of t-shirts with small, unexplained holes at decocker level. Never found a shirt caught in the lever, so, may have been a hammer edge causing the trouble.

Most of my t-shirts are in the same boat from carrying a Shield. Might be your belt instead.

I'd recommend potentially looking at a USPC instead of a P2K if this is your first dive into HKs. The USP series can be converted between DA/SA and LEM with a (somewhat expensive) kit without harming your warranty or leaving gaps in the frame. The USPC also uses the same mags as the P2000 and can accept P30 mags with a slight gap if you decide to pick up one or the other down the line. Reset is noticeably better with the USPC as well compared to the P30 series.

As for comparing LEM to DA/SA, I'm not a huge DA snob given that my only other DA gun is an old FNP-9, but the P30L V3 I have got fairly nice after 1,000 rounds and a light firing pin block spring as mentioned. The pull is somewhat long, but the weight isn't bad and it feels fairly smooth to me. I've since switched over to Light LEM, but I wouldn't complain if circumstances arose that forced me to shoot an HK DA/SA again.

[HCountyGuy]

TDA > LEM :D

fite me!

Don’t have to remember to de-cock with LEM.

Even though I cut my teeth on TDA Sigs, last time I went to the LGS my stupid self was having trouble with de-cocking. Not forgetting mind you, just the motor skills part. Stupid hands...

[farscott]

I found the P30 V3 DA/SA to be unacceptable. It is much worse than the Beretta 92-series or SIG P22x DA/SA triggers. The DA pull is bad, but the SA pull is just not consistent for me. To be fair, my experience is with a stock V3.

[rathos]

HK DA is heavy compared to any other DA/SA gun out there. I am sure there are ways to work it over, but the HK DA was always tough to be accurate with for me compared to other DA/SA guns. For reference, I have used the P2000 (had the most time on that gun), P30 and HK45 and HK45c.

[OlongJohnson]

All my new-ish USPs have relatively unlovely triggers. Compared to other good TDA pistols, the DA is quite heavy and not smooth. Not gritty, more just bumpy. Also, it seems there is more flex in the trigger and/or frame than with a Sig or steel-trigger Beretta, which is likely exacerbated by the weight of the DA press. It definitely doesn't have the precise feeling and crispness of the others.

I also have a USP 40 so old it has Ballard rifling. I think it's a '94 or '95. The DA is pretty nicely broken in, and would be difficult to criticize.

LEM is likely the best of the "enhanced" DAO options.

A nicely detailed Beretta DAO action is a beautiful thing, even without any "enhanced" characteristics. It's possible it's not as popular as it should be due to having been paired so frequently with the .40 S&W cartridge, which was not a good combination with the Beretta pistol before dust covers were slanted.

Read the three DB trigger threads and decide if LEM is what you want/need. Then commit to work with it, or don't.

If you aren't specifically focused on the "easy to not shoot" aspects of the LEM, then the finer points of the trigger characteristics become just one of many attributes to be weighed against each other. A well-broken-in TDA action in H&K, classic Sig, or Beretta will all be close enough that they won't likely be the biggest factor in how well you're able to run the gun at speed. I wouldn't pick a pistol just based on the trigger press.

[Canyonrat]

You could look at doing these things to a USP:
https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/233531-here-s-why-usp-expert-trigger-much-better.html

Plus the light firing pin block spring. All put together about $60 from hkparts including the V3 detente plate. Definitely smoothed out mine. If you do it, the special needlenose for holding the trigger spring would be a good idea, it’s tricky.

[einherjarvalk]

The USP doesn't have a light firing pin block spring. I think the only non-stock one is for the "Heavy" LEM, and the stock USP firing pin block spring (209296) is the same part considered the "light" firing pin block spring for the P2000/P30.

[Canyonrat]

The USP doesn't have a light firing pin block spring. I think the only non-stock one is for the "Heavy" LEM, and the stock USP firing pin block spring (209296) is the same part considered the "light" firing pin block spring for the P2000/P30.

I installed this one, somewhere the inter webs told me to.... ;-)
https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Firing-Pin-Block-Spring-Enhanced-198p18110.htm

It works. But apparently not an HK branded.

[MGW]

I think at the end of the day most people don’t buy HK’s for the trigger. LEM is love it or hate it. If that systems appeals to you just make sure you are willing to commit yourself just shooting LEM for awhile. It’ll take work but I think most people can figure it out. TDA HK’s are going to feel like Sigs or Beretta’s. But lots of people shoot them really well. Most of the

I’m back on the Glock train for now but I see a pair of V3 P30’s in my future. I love how accurate and reliable they are and I like shooting TDA better than anything.

For what it’s worth there’s a nice used P2000 LEM in the classifieds. If you are interested in trying LEM that would be a really good place to start. They’re really nice Glock 19 sized pistols.

[hufnagel]

you know what really smooths out the action on a P30 and makes the TDA trigger nice? 10,000 rounds down range and at least as many dry fire reps. :D

[Spartan1980]

The P30 V3 already has the light trigger return spring which is good because it's the one that's a bitch to install.

I put an enhanced nickel plated sear spring (HKP-01811), a light firing pin block spring (HKP-01955) and light hammer spring (HKP-16489) FROM HKPARTS in mine. Cost was $31. Same parts from H&K will be about $12 if they have them in stock. It made a pretty big difference in the overall feel, it's definitely lighter on the DA stroke, but I doubt it measures as different as it feels. Definitely noticeable to the better side but not earth shattering different.

The P30 DA trigger is plenty usable out of the box if you put the time into training with it. The springs are cheap and easy to replace so why not?

[einherjarvalk]

If you're willing to wait a bit and don't want to pay the HKParts tax, the HK OEM parts can occasionally be had from Brownells. Best way to do it is to just throw them on backorder when there's free shipping and wait. Plug the following numbers into Brownells' search and they'll come right up.

Nickel-plated Sear Spring (all models): 215691
Light Firing Pin Block Spring (late model USP, P2000, P30): 209296
10.5-11# Hammer Spring (all models, stock on USPC): 215694

A note on the hammer spring - I would check Top Gun Supply before buying one from Brownells, or shell out for the HK Parts hammer spring on this one item. At some point HK apparently started to ship part 215694 as a 12# spring, indicated by the blue paint coating, when it used to be a lighter 10.5-11# spring. I bought one from Brownells and one from TGS when playing around with my USPT's hammer spring. The Brownells spring had the right model number but was painted blue and felt identical to the factory 12# spring, while the TGS spring was gunmetal and yielded a slightly lighter DA pull. YMMV.

[RoyGBiv]

If you're willing to wait a bit and don't want to pay the HKParts tax, the HK OEM parts can occasionally be had from Brownells. Best way to do it is to just throw them on backorder when there's free shipping and wait. Plug the following numbers into Brownells' search and they'll come right up.

Nickel-plated Sear Spring (all models): 215691
Light Firing Pin Block Spring (late model USP, P2000, P30): 209296
10.5-11# Hammer Spring (all models, stock on USPC): 215694

A note on the hammer spring - I would check Top Gun Supply before buying one from Brownells, or shell out for the HK Parts hammer spring on this one item. At some point HK apparently started to ship part 215694 as a 12# spring, indicated by the blue paint coating, when it used to be a lighter 10.5-11# spring. I bought one from Brownells and one from TGS when playing around with my USPT's hammer spring. The Brownells spring had the right model number but was painted blue and felt identical to the factory 12# spring, while the TGS spring was gunmetal and yielded a slightly lighter DA pull. YMMV.

Textbook example of "Helpful"! Kudos!

[JAH 3rd]

I started my firearms career on a S&W model 19. I guess it is my default mode for comparing various trigger pulls out there. I see in the above threads talk of various spring replacements to lower trigger pull. The S&W revolver design lends itself to a lighter pull by simply replacing the trigger return spring with a lighter spring. A cheap way to get a lighter pull.

For my HK USP 45 full-size, I bought the hammer spring # 215694 mentioned above. It really did not make that much difference in the pull. In fact, it introduced just a hair bit of creep when shooting in single action mode. It's still in the pistol and she has been 100% reliable.

I haven't tried a LEM HK. I do have a P2000 DA/SA. It is just personal preference. The DA trigger pull is a bit steep. In the SA mode, I like the lighter crisp let-off of the P2000. My yardstick is how much does the trigger pull upset the sight picture just before firing. I find my sight picture is less effected by trigger pull in SA mode.

[Irelander]

Here is DB's treatise on the LEM trigger.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&highlight=trigger
There is a lot of wisdom there that I think I will heed at this time and go for the LEM trigger. Now I just need to part with some SFA guns to fund the HK!

[1slow]

Also read DB and GJM's posts on the Match / LEM Hybrid trigger on the USP. GJMs USP field Pistol thread is also helpful.

I have the Match / LEM Hybrid trigger on several USPs and like it best. It is better than the light LEM on USPs and HK45s.

I have used HP P30 V1 LEM 9mm for 3 years amd 30,000 +/- rounds and like it. I am considering going USP as a carry gun over P30 because of the squarer grip and the Match / LEM Hybrid trigger.

[RND]

TDA > LEM :D

fite me!

Not only is that comment a fail, it is also inaccurate.

[hufnagel]

Not only is that comment a fail, it is also inaccurate.

I whole heartedly disagree, on both counts.

LEM is too easy to pull under stress, doesn't provide enough tactile feedback as to activity on first shot, and many seem to find it harder to master than TDA, no matter how "hard" they try. I don't profess to have the skills to explain why this occurs, but it does, other than they're too similar and yet different enough. TDA is two distinct triggers, where LEM is closer to 1.5 or 1.25 different triggers, but different enough to cause problems.
People also seem to gravitate towards getting the lightest possible LEM trigger they can, often to the detriment of what the gun and trigger are intended for. Even the TLG special isn't the lightest/smoothest trigger possible.

That all being said, if you can run/manage LEM and it does what you want, more power to you. I think it's an over hyped trigger system.

[Corse]

I whole heartedly disagree, on both counts.

LEM is too easy to pull under stress, doesn't provide enough tactile feedback as to activity on first shot, and many seem to find it harder to master than TDA, no matter how "hard" they try. I don't profess to have the skills to explain why this occurs, but it does, other than they're too similar and yet different enough. TDA is two distinct triggers, where LEM is closer to 1.5 or 1.25 different triggers, but different enough to cause problems.
People also seem to gravitate towards getting the lightest possible LEM trigger they can, often to the detriment of what the gun and trigger are intended for. Even the TLG special isn't the lightest/smoothest trigger possible.

That all being said, if you can run/manage LEM and it does what you want, more power to you. I think it's an over hyped trigger system.

I had no issues running LEM, it feels just like the single action trigger with an extremely light initial take up. I'm also not seeing how it is more than 1 consistent trigger pull.

[Bucky]

I had no issues running LEM, it feels just like the single action trigger with an extremely light initial take up. I'm also not seeing how it is more than 1 consistent trigger pull.

If you realease the trigger all the way after each shot, it really is one trigger pull. If you only release two reset, it’s kind of 2. Same could be said of a Glock if you think about it. Also, if you need a double strike (LEM), that’s a different pull as well.

[RJ]

I whole heartedly disagree, on both counts.

LEM is too easy to pull under stress, doesn't provide enough tactile feedback as to activity on first shot, and many seem to find it harder to master than TDA, no matter how "hard" they try. I don't profess to have the skills to explain why this occurs, but it does, other than they're too similar and yet different enough. TDA is two distinct triggers, where LEM is closer to 1.5 or 1.25 different triggers, but different enough to cause problems.
People also seem to gravitate towards getting the lightest possible LEM trigger they can, often to the detriment of what the gun and trigger are intended for. Even the TLG special isn't the lightest/smoothest trigger possible.

That all being said, if you can run/manage LEM and it does what you want, more power to you. I think it's an over hyped trigger system.

I went through a year trying to make LEM work for me as a noob. It didn’t help I was trying to shoot a VP9 as well.

I agree with most of your post above. One comment on the bolded part, being as how few LEM guns are out there in the shops, it is not like you have a choice in LEM configurations. In my case all they had was the V1 or light LEM. I know now you can adjust the springs etc. but that is pretty advanced especially for a new shooter like me.

I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that the LEM *is* great at it’s designed application; namely LEOs who spend a lot of time covering suspects with guns drawn (I think Darryl has mentioned this more than once.). “For me” however as Joe CCW, if I have to draw from my holster there is a pretty good chance I will need to use it. So my reasoning is I’d rather have a pistol in my hand that I’m confident with.

But who knows I’m just a random noobie talking out of his butt on an Internet forum. If LEM works for you, awesome. I strongly defer to all of the actual knowledgeable people here as far as recommending it to others.

[Sauer Koch]

I went back and read the Dagga Boy thread and wow, what an education, thanks! My wife will be transitioning from 229 to a P30sk in the coming weeks, so this has been the perfect read, and it’ll be an interesting experience for both of us, since neither have ever shot a gun with a LEM trigger, but feel that all things considered, it’ll be a great carry gun for her.

[Corse]

If you realease the trigger all the way after each shot, it really is one trigger pull. If you only release two reset, it’s kind of 2. Same could be said of a Glock if you think about it. Also, if you need a double strike (LEM), that’s a different pull as well.

I don't play the reset game anymore, but releasing to reset doesn't change the trigger break, it just bypass the ridiculously light initial take up . The decocked LEM or second strike trigger pull could be a pain, but would rarely be encountered in most situations and I think could be seen as a "feature" not available on striker fired guns.

In my mind the LEM is just a 2 stage rifle trigger.

[David S.]

I think I will heed at this time and go for the LEM trigger.

If you're in western PA, meet Guinnessman. For a beer or two, I bet he'd let you run some rounds through his LEM guns.

[Guinnessman]

If you're in western PA, meet Guinnessman. For a beer or two, I bet he'd let you run some rounds through his LEM guns.

He is welcome to try the original flavor P30, the SK, or the L. There are some great places for beer near the range for a debrief.:D

[Irelander]

He is welcome to try the original flavor P30, the SK, or the L. There are some great places for beer near the range for a debrief.:D

Thanks bro. I'm not down to Pittsburgh very often but the next time I'm down that way with some free time I'll let you know.

[JonInWA]

I agree that the LEM is a great duty/threat management action. After intensively running it for a good part of 2018, I like it-but it's not the most "shootable" action, and I definitely experienced a learning curve when I got into it (my sample size of 1 is a P30L in V1 (Light) LEM)-there are some excellent threads on the forum here regarding the philosophy behind, utilization of, and experience with LEM. Dagga Boy/Darryl Bolke's threads are an excellent starting and reference point.

That said, I personally am a bit preferential towards my upgraded Beretta 92D. Although the triggerpull is longer and heavier (at 13# vs 4.5# for the V1 LEM), and the reset is WAYYYY longer (i.e., all the way forward...) vs the LEM , whose reset distance is only slightly longer than those on my Glocks, at least on my P30L; (anecdotally, apparently different HK models with LEM have slightly different characteristics/reset points)-but the Beretta DAO pull provides much more tactile feedback during the triggerpull process, which I prefer; it's like that on a very good tuned S&W revolver.

Not necessarily apropos this discussion, but I found it interesting that after all my time on DAO and LEM that I was able to pick up my HK VP40, and with minimal dryfire practice during the week proceeding the match, shoot it in a IDPA match and turn in one of, if not the best personal score for the year....So it's not like concentrating on the DAO and LEM actions spoiled me regarding striker-fired pistols...

Best, Jon

[TheNewbie]

I agree that the LEM is a great duty/threat management action. After intensively running it for a good part of 2018, I like it-but it's not the most "shootable" action, and I definitely experienced a learning curve when I got into it (my sample size of 1 is a P30L in V1 (Light) LEM)-there are some excellent threads on the forum here regarding the philosophy behind, utilization of, and experience with LEM. Dagga Boy/Darryl Bolke's threads are an excellent starting and reference point.

That said, I personally am a bit preferential towards my upgraded Beretta 92D. Although the triggerpull is longer and heavier (at 13# vs 4.5# for the V1 LEM), and the reset is WAYYYY longer (i.e., all the way forward...) vs the LEM , whose reset distance is only slightly longer than those on my Glocks, at least on my P30L; (anecdotally, apparently different HK models with LEM have slightly different characteristics/reset points)-but the Beretta DAO pull provides much more tactile feedback during the triggerpull process, which I prefer; it's like that on a very good tuned S&W revolver.

Not necessarily apropos this discussion, but I found it interesting that after all my time on DAO and LEM that I was able to pick up my HK VP40, and with minimal dryfire practice during the week proceeding the match, shoot it in a IDPA match and turn in one of, if not the best personal score for the year....So it's not like concentrating on the DAO and LEM actions spoiled me regarding striker-fired pistols...

Best, Jon


Your 92D has a 13# pull? I thought the pull was lighter then that.

[JonInWA]

Your 92D has a 13# pull? I thought the pull was lighter then that.

You know, you're probably/doubtlessly right-It had around a 8# or so triggerpull with the OEM "D" spring, which is 16#, so with the 13# Wilson Combat mainspring and the Wilson Combat triggerbar, it's probably around 6# or so would be my guess. Good catch! I was equating mainspring weight equaling triggerpull weight, which is wrong-my bad.

Best, Jon

[TheNewbie]

You know, you're probably/doubtlessly right-It had around a 8# or so triggerpull with the OEM "D" spring, which is 16#, so with the 13# Wilson Combat mainspring and the Wilson Combat triggerbar, it's probably around 6# or so would be my guess. Good catch! I was equating mainspring weight equaling triggerpull weight, which is wrong-my bad.

Best, Jon

Thank you for all the good information you put out. I just wanted to make sure I understood you properly.

Again, thank you!

[Irelander]

Just to update this thread. I picked up a P2000SK V2 last night from a generous forum provider and have CCC Shaggy inbound from a generous forum member. I'm really liking the V2 trigger. We'll see how things go from here.

[hufnagel]

don't forget, P2000 and P30/VP9 mags will insert and lock just fine. they even make xgrip adapters to fill the gap left over. In fact give me a shout if you get any P2000 mags for it.

[Doc_Glock]

I agree that the LEM is a great duty/threat management action. After intensively running it for a good part of 2018, I like it-but it's not the most "shootable" action, and I definitely experienced a learning curve when I got into it (my sample size of 1 is a P30L in V1 (Light) LEM)-there are some excellent threads on the forum here regarding the philosophy behind, utilization of, and experience with LEM. Dagga Boy/Darryl Bolke's threads are an excellent starting and reference point.

That said, I personally am a bit preferential towards my upgraded Beretta 92D. Although the triggerpull is longer and heavier (at 13# vs 4.5# for the V1 LEM), and the reset is WAYYYY longer (i.e., all the way forward...) vs the LEM , whose reset distance is only slightly longer than those on my Glocks, at least on my P30L; (anecdotally, apparently different HK models with LEM have slightly different characteristics/reset points)-but the Beretta DAO pull provides much more tactile feedback during the triggerpull process, which I prefer; it's like that on a very good tuned S&W revolver.

Not necessarily apropos this discussion, but I found it interesting that after all my time on DAO and LEM that I was able to pick up my HK VP40, and with minimal dryfire practice during the week proceeding the match, shoot it in a IDPA match and turn in one of, if not the best personal score for the year....So it's not like concentrating on the DAO and LEM actions spoiled me regarding striker-fired pistols...

Best, Jon

I have found this as well. I prefer DAO to LEM, and find I can get back up to speed with a striker gun after time off in a couple hundred rounds. If I take time off a LEM, it takes around 1500 rounds to get the mojo of running it back.

[JonInWA]

I have found this as well. I prefer DAO to LEM, and find I can get back up to speed with a striker gun after time off in a couple hundred rounds. If I take time off a LEM, it takes around 1500 rounds to get the mojo of running it back.

I'm factoring that in to my ongoing choice for my personal prevalent duty gun for running my church security team. I suspect that this year will see a higher proportion of Beretta 92D than the HK P30 V1 LEM; I need to re-verify where I'm at with the HK. I also need to continuously balance the shootability vs threat management matrix. Shooting as well as I did with the VP40 last month (and. to a lesser extent, with my Gen4 Glock G22 in a match earlier in the month) has added a bit of a wild card in the equation, but I still am feeling that a DAO or LEM is a superior choice for a duty-type sidearm.

In an actual incident where I chose to draw my weapon when confronting an individual who had broken into a church vehicle and was caught in the act (he was hiding inside the vehicle), was performing furtive hand movements and refused verbal commands to show his hands, I felt absolutely confident with the Beretta 92D, given my index with it, the sights on it, and the DAO trigger characteristics. It was also the gun that I'd just successfully competed with in our state IDPA match. When the confrontation downgraded, it was also reassuring to reholster without any further control manipulations being necessary.

Best, Jon

[Guinnessman]

Just to update this thread. I picked up a P2000SK V2 last night from a generous forum provider and have CCC Shaggy inbound from a generous forum member. I'm really liking the V2 trigger. We'll see how things go from here.

If you need magazines, check here: http://www.crosscreekguns.com/HKmags.html

Mike always has good prices on HK gear!

[hufnagel]

second on CCG being a good vendor to keep in your digital rolodex. I've bought a couple HKs from him over the years.

[MattyD380]

I wanted to love HKs.

And I tried... with a P2SK LEM, an HK45c and a USPc 45. And, despite the 100% reliability track record across all three of those guns... I can't say any of them really "spoke" to me, from a shootability standpoint.

-The P2SK LEM was one of the first guns I owned. So, I was still kinda figuring out what I liked. But, suffice to say... it wasn't LEM. It didn't have the smooth, rolling break of a good DA, nor was it as crisp and intuitive as a true SA. After adding a P245 and a P239 as alternative carry options, the writing was on the wall. Also... it was a thick little bastard.

-The HK45c may have been the most inherently accurate gun I've owned, but it had the worst DA trigger I've ever used (with an aftermarket spring, my Radom P64 was better). Gritty. Heavy. Creepy. Shitty. In SA (acceptable, I guess), the gun would group super tight... somewhat close to where I was aiming. For me, the ergonomics felt off--the grip was too slick and it positioned my hand too low to comfortably engage the trigger.

-So I got a USPc 45...... now, I'll say the trigger on this gun (for me, anyway) was just fine. Actually had a nicer DA pull than some of my older Sigs. SA was fine too. But man... that grip. Too narrow. Too deep (front to back). Just couldn't hold onto the gun. It was such an abominable tank of a gun. It just felt like engineering, incarnate. But alas... it went too.

Recently, I've dry fired a few P30SKs and they actually felt pretty good. I'd consider picking one up at some point. I've also heard the USP series has inherently better trigger lockwork than P series guns. Not entirely sure... but my experience with the USPc 45 corroborates this. I'd also consider trying a USP in 9mm. I feel like the grip might feel better as doublestack--with less back to front depth.

In all, I really do appreciate the over-engineering that goes into HKs. In my mind, their reliability and toughness is unquestioned. That said... my Beretta 92 compact has never hiccuped and it allows me to carve golfball-sized holes at will, wherever I point it. Thank you, Pietro.