Tumbling/Yawing .38 Special?

[RevolverRob]

Early this evening, while looking up load data for the old British .380/200 load I came across some interesting tid-bits about 200-grain bullets in .38 Special traveling ~550-600fps.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/200-grain-38-special-super-police-cartridge/

The conceptual idea, is a .38 Special load that penetrates decently, recoils softly, and has the potential to yaw when it hits tissue. Science wise, the idea has some merit. The longer and heavier 200-grain bullets are less stable from the twist-rate common in .38 special barrels (particularly between 2-4"). And the low velocity doesn't allow high speed stability to occur either, such that when the bullet hits something it has a tendency to upset. I can see this being pretty lame, if we're talking an 85-grain .380 bullet, but a 200-grain lead slug seems like it might push a further on the penetration front. It seems that this was the same idea, by-the-by for the .380/200 load that British cooked up for Enfields and Webleys. Send a 200-grain round nose bullet out at about 6-650 fps. It penetrates fairly deep and may get upset in the process and turn over.

While I'm not normally for voodoo magic to get bullets to work, the simple reality is that there aren't very many good .38 Special loads for snub-nosed revolvers out there. You get penetration and no expansion, plenty of expansion and minimal penetration, or expansion, penetration, and plenty of recoil. So, I'm interested in anything that might work a bit better. I know we have some guys who have probably played with 200-grain bullets in .38 Specials - what say you? Yay, nay, indifferent?

The very real downside is that it is likely to not defeat any kind of intermediate barrier reliably. Chances are good if it hits windshield glass it will deflect pretty hard. So, anyone who may have a higher chance of shooting through a barrier this will be a non-starter.

[willie]

Years ago on another forum I asked Doc about the 200 grain slow bullet load. If memory serves me, he did not accept the claim that the load was effective. Rob, I agree with your opinion that .38 Spl bullets from snubs lack impressive ballistics. I think that it's the gun(j frame)that fits a niche, and the .38 Spl is the best choice available for this gun. It's a bare minimum at best. That's why today it's a backup weapon and not a primary sidearm. Of course, I stated the obvious.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The problem with yaw is that you can't get it to be consistent as to the degree and location. We know that pointy or round nosed pistol bullets yaw, as do pointy and round nosed rifle bullets. They just do it at different points during their travel through tissue and so we can't count on that mechanism helping us out.

[the Schwartz]

The .38 Special 200-grain LRN fell into disfavor, and eventually disuse, due to the fact that it often penetrated excessively and exited bodies without incapacitating/neutralizing the threat. Any reliance upon the LRN's tendency (which is far from a guarantee) to tumble/yaw coupled with its very low velocity―and the likelihood that the LRN will not expand―makes it a questionable choice at best. I am not sure why anyone would want to ''reinvent the wheel'' by returning to a non-expanding projectile that would behave no differently than an FMJ when there are truly exceptional designs that are readily available (Gold Dot, HST, PDX1, etc...) and are capable of doing a far better job than the .38 Special 200-grain LRN.

[willie]

Also the factory 200 gr load had a hefty recoil. I've shot a lot of it over the years.

[RevolverRob]

there are truly exceptional designs that are readily available (Gold Dot, HST, PDX1, etc...) and are capable of doing a far better job than the .38 Special 200-grain LRN.

And while they may do a fine job (and do) from 3" and longer revolvers, from 2" or less barrels, they tend to have inconsistent expansion and/or penetration. Or they have excessive recoil. Which is probably why 90% of J-Frame carriers here on P-F prefer the 148-grain HBWC for carry. Which is why I'm always interested in potential alternatives.

And I'm sorry - did you change your name recently?

[the Schwartz]

And while they may do a fine job (and do) from 3" and longer revolvers, from 2" or less barrels, they tend to have inconsistent expansion and/or penetration. Or they have excessive recoil. Which is probably why 90% of J-Frame carriers here on P-F prefer the 148-grain HBWC for carry. Which is why I'm always interested in potential alternatives.

Then why not stick with the HBWC which promises by its very design to cut a much larger permanent wound channel? An FMJ or LRN, with its rounded profile, is simply going to slip through soft tissue and push it aside without damaging it, whereas the HBWC, even if it doesn't expand, will cut a somewhat larger permanent wound channel due to the sharper edges presented by its profile. Although an FMJ or an LRN might yaw or tumble, that mechanism would be unreliable at best and quite a gamble.


I'm sorry - did you change your name recently?

Relevance?

I note that your profile says that you are the south side of Chiraq―assuming that you are talking about Chicago―my dad grew up on the south side, in Merrionette Park specifically, and I was born in Oak Park...which was, at the time, a little bit better than being on the south side, but only 'a little'. ;)

[Hambo]

I don't know who that author is, but I think paging Dagga Boy for some historical data would be a good idea. I suspect that the main answer to less than ideal LRN back in the day was "shoot better", not different ammo. Given that ammo with bullets heavier than 158gr would be either a custom or handloaded proposition today, the real options are WC or MTFU for +P JHP.

[RevolverRob]

Then why not stick with the HBWC which promises by its very design to cut a much larger permanent wound channel? An FMJ or LRN, with its rounded profile, is simply going to slip through soft tissue and push it aside without damaging it, whereas the HBWC, even if it doesn't expand, will cut a somewhat larger permanent wound channel due to the sharper edges presented by its profile. Although an FMJ or an LRN might yaw or tumble, that mechanism would be unreliable at best and quite a gamble.

I'll probably stick with my +P Remington LHPs for now. But I'm always interested in whether or not something got lost in the days of yore. It is unlikely that it did but you never know and I like to keep my eyes open.



Relevance?

I'm just trying to place your sig quote and screen name together and they aren't clicking. If not, it could simply be a missed connection.


I don't know who that author is, but I think paging Dagga Boy for some historical data would be a good idea. I suspect that the main answer to less than ideal LRN back in the day was "shoot better", not different ammo. Given that ammo with bullets heavier than 158gr would be either a custom or handloaded proposition today, the real options are WC or MTFU for +P JHP.

Shoot better is always the best answer. Honestly it's not as though +P JHPs hurt to shoot, it's that the recoil from them makes follow up shots a 50-50 proposition.

[the Schwartz]

I'll probably stick with my +P Remington LHPs for now. But I'm always interested in whether or not something got lost in the days of yore. It is unlikely that it did but you never know and I like to keep my eyes open.

I'm just trying to place your sig quote and screen name together and they aren't clicking. If not, it could simply be a missed connection.

Well, that makes sense always looking for better options...


Good luck with that. :cool: My sig line changes with the direction of the wind and/or how I am feeling on a given day.

Hopefully you are far enough south of the south side to not be in the midst of the war-zone that it has become over these last two or three decades. The only thing that I really miss from there (all my family is gone from there now, thank Heaven!) is a long-defunct pizza joint up on North Ave, Cappizzi's Pizza, which made the best damned pizza in the world―I still have dreams where I go back and can almost taste it. Ah, nertz....now I am hungry.

[Hambo]

I'll probably stick with my +P Remington LHPs for now. But I'm always interested in whether or not something got lost in the days of yore. It is unlikely that it did but you never know and I like to keep my eyes open.

The caveman in me always wants a bigger hammer, so I get it. If I were going to go that route I'd go bigger diameter and heavier bullet.

[RevolverRob]

Hopefully you are far enough south of the south side to not be in the midst of the war-zone that it has become over these last two or three decades. The only thing that I really miss from there (all my family is gone from there now, thank Heaven!) is a long-defunct pizza joint up on North Ave, Cappizzi's Pizza, which made the best damned pizza in the world―I still have dreams where I go back and can almost taste it. Ah, nertz....now I am hungry.

No, I'm fairly well away from the war zone. I'm in Hyde Park, so north and east of the worst spots. The wife and I did take my FIL to Oak Park to look at Frank Lloyd Wright houses one time and we drove west through Austin - I remember him being very concerned about the neighborhood we were driving through and dumbfounded when in a block it changed from boarded up crack houses to multi-million dollar homes. It blew his mind that you could be driving down North and get to Austin Blvd and the neighborhood just changes. It still strikes me as weird, if you drive southbound on Austin Blvd, to your right are multi-million dollar homes, pristine, to your left are crack houses and cops. I've lived here over four years now and I'm still confused by this city.

I don't know how good Cappizzi's Pizza was, but the joint we go to is Pequod's Pizza on Clybourn and Webster in the west Lincoln Park/Sheffield neighborhood. That place makes the only good deep dish I've ever had. Crust is caramelized, spicy Italian sausage, green peppers, it's good. 20-30 years ago, that would have been a very dumpy area, because Cabrini Green was still half a mile south of there. Now sitting where Cabrini Green once stood is a Target and across the street a high rise condo development, where the cheapest shoebox condo is 500k.


The caveman in me always wants a bigger hammer, so I get it. If I were going to go that route I'd go bigger diameter and heavier bullet.

Well, this did send me down the rabbit hole of various bullets that may tumble more reliably or less reliably. It does look like the Lehigh Maximum Defense bullet is about a 50-50 on doing an end over when fired from a snub. But even when it does, it seems to stay <18" of penetration and of course, no expansion, since that's a monolithic bullet. It also appears that the Hornady Critical Defense in all flavors (90-110-110 +P) tend to tumble when they go through 4-layer denim tests. I can see that too, being kind of a 'spitzier' shape. But again, sort of a mixed bag.

Still, I continue to remain impressed with +P LHP. The LHP seems to get a reliable 12.5" of penetration and mild if not good expansion regardless of test media, except through auto glass. Though, I do really want to love the new HST...I just wish Federal would push the nose out a bit to make it possible to do reloads quickly with the damn things.

[revchuck38]

<thread drift>
Back when everyone was kvetching about accuracy issues with M&P 1.0s in 9x19, one of the internet theories advanced was that the 1 in 18-3/4" twist was too slow to stabilize 115-grain bullets at 1150 fps. When I pointed out that it adequately stabilized the old Super Police load from a Chief's Special, I got the online equivalent of "WTF are you talking about?" looks.
</thread drift>

[the Schwartz]

No, I'm fairly well away from the war zone. I'm in Hyde Park, so north and east of the worst spots. The wife and I did take my FIL to Oak Park to look at Frank Lloyd Wright houses one time and we drove west through Austin - I remember him being very concerned about the neighborhood we were driving through and dumbfounded when in a block it changed from boarded up crack houses to multi-million dollar homes. It blew his mind that you could be driving down North and get to Austin Blvd and the neighborhood just changes. It still strikes me as weird, if you drive southbound on Austin Blvd, to your right are multi-million dollar homes, pristine, to your left are crack houses and cops. I've lived here over four years now and I'm still confused by this city.

I don't know how good Cappizzi's Pizza was, but the joint we go to is Pequod's Pizza on Clybourn and Webster in the west Lincoln Park/Sheffield neighborhood. That place makes the only good deep dish I've ever had. Crust is caramelized, spicy Italian sausage, green peppers, it's good. 20-30 years ago, that would have been a very dumpy area, because Cabrini Green was still half a mile south of there. Now sitting where Cabrini Green once stood is a Target and across the street a high rise condo development, where the cheapest shoebox condo is 500k.

My, how things've changed....

When I was last in Chicago, Hyde Park was in pretty rough shape. The house in Oak Park that my maternal grandparents owned up until their deaths was located at the intersection of Humphrey and Iowa; there are times that I've passed through (on the way to Montana to settle the score with prairie dogs) and thought of hopping off of the Dan Ryan to run across Division Avenue to see the old place, but have never done so. Perhaps next time....maybe I'll check out Pequod's too. :p

Don't feel too bad about getting confused by the layout of the city. Most of my family (both sides) is from there from as far back (and farther than) as I can remember and they still haven't figured it out either.

[03RN]

https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDevelopment/Heavyweight-38-Special-Loads/290

I typically prefer heavy for caliber bullets for hunting but it seems faster tougher bullets perform better and more consistent in defensive fights/barriers.

I'd rather push a bonded 125/130 grain bullet as fast as possible.

[Salamander]

I don't know how good Cappizzi's Pizza was, but the joint we go to is Pequod's Pizza on Clybourn and Webster in the west Lincoln Park/Sheffield neighborhood. That place makes the only good deep dish I've ever had. Crust is caramelized, spicy Italian sausage, green peppers, it's good. 20-30 years ago, that would have been a very dumpy area, because Cabrini Green was still half a mile south of there. Now sitting where Cabrini Green once stood is a Target and across the street a high rise condo development, where the cheapest shoebox condo is 500k.


Small world... for 20 years I lived in the 1600 block of Clybourn, and remember Pequod's. We moved there in 1980, fresh out of school and what we could afford, as you say close to Cabrini and a victim of "urban removal" with vacant lots where about a quarter of the buildings had been demolished by the city. Those first couple of years kids still drag raced on Clybourn which had no traffic, and our friends were mostly afraid to come and visit us. Ironically, those were some of the best neighbors I ever had, good people who looked out for us.

Only problem we ever had there was when we had just moved in and folks still thought the building was vacant even though we'd already put bars on the windows and metal gates on the doors. One night we came home and found a kid from the projects had broken the door glass and reached through the gate, the dog had grabbed his hand and not let go. Blood everywhere and he was half passed out. Cops took him away. After that things calmed down, good thing because this was during the Chicago gun ban and all we had was one grandfathered shotgun, everything else was in storage in the 'burbs.

Now it's all gentrified and there's an Apple Store on the corner at North Ave. The year we moved west (2000) it was construction noise all day, party noise all night, and rapidly rising property taxes. Hasn't gotten any better since then from what I've seen.

The city does make a strange sort of sense to those who grew up there and keep up with the changes. But I'm no longer interested in paying for what passes for government in Illinois.

Anyway, I'm one of those carrying HBWC on J-frame days. I should share a recent story about that but it belongs in another thread.

[jtcarm]

Then why not stick with the HBWC which promises by its very design to cut a much larger permanent wound channel?

Lots of people have and do. IIRC, Jim Cirillo was one.

They make a great first six, but reloading from an SL can be a bit problematic.

[Wheeler]

Lots of people have and do. IIRC, Jim Cirillo was one.

They make a great first six, but reloading from an SL can be a bit problematic.

In my IDPA heydays I had some blazing fast reloads using Safariland Comp 1's. There were a couple of sub 2 second shot to shot reloads recorded on the timer. My secret was a huge box of inverted .38 Special HBWC's that were given to me. When I'd practice at the the range with live fire, I'd use them for my reload. Run a failure drill with a reload for instance. I got REALLY good at lining up the cartridges with the chambers. :D

That's probably more work than most folks want to put into learning to reload fast but it is an option. ;)