HST; Bonded Or Not?

[CajunMP357]

All of the ballistic gel and water tests that I have watched/seen on the HST bullet, not one has separated from its jacket. But, I have also read a few articles about the HST being a NON BONDED bullet. If this were the case, wouldn't there be bullet/jacket separation? :confused:

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All of the ballistic gel and water tests that I have watched/seen on the HST bullet, not one has separated from its jacket. But, I have also read a few articles about the HST being a NON BONDED bullet. If this were the case, wouldn't there be bullet/jacket separation? :confused:Not really. Bonded rounds are much less likely to exhibit jacket separation, but bonding is not the only way to minimize jacket separation. I don't know how HST is constructed, but bonded bullets do not have a monopoly on jacket retention through barriers.

[Dave Williams]

HST is not bonded, we had a separation with 147 HST in the auto glass test in ATK testing at my dept.

[Tabasco]

HST like Critical Duty has a ridge on the inside of the jacket that serves to keep the jacket attached to the lead core. It's 'mechanically' bonded. I could see where HST or Critical Duty could have a jacket separation if it over expanded or something like that.

[DocGKR]

Yup--HST is not bonded, but a pretty good design which works well in a wide variety of conditions.

Gold Dots are plated, not actually bonded. The old Fed Tactical and TBBC are true bonded bullets.

[witchking777]

In my own humble water tests the newer lots of 147 gr HST have a double cannulere that limits the petals from folding back behind the bullet base,allowing for straighter and deeper penetration.

[CajunMP357]

Yup--HST is not bonded, but a pretty good design which works well in a wide variety of conditions.

Gold Dots are plated, not actually bonded. The old Fed Tactical and TBBC are true bonded bullets.
When you say plated, can you define that, please?

[KhanRad]

When you say plated, can you define that, please?

Not Doc, but it is a electro-plating process. Soft lead bullets are submerged in a copper solution, and the copper molecules attach themselves to the lead molecules on the bullet's outer surface. The weak point of the process is that it needs softer lead bullets for the copper molecules to attach to, and the copper coating is pure copper which isn't very hard. The result is an overall soft bullet. Gold Dots use this process, although they have a copper partition in the middle to add strength and when the bullet expands you can see the copper "dot" in the center(hence "gold dots").

Bonded bullets are MUCH more durable since they use a harder lead alloy for the bullet, and a harder copper alloy for the jacket, which is then fused together using the same electro-chemical process as plated bullets. The jacket does not adhere to the core as well as a Gold Dot, but the overall structure of the bullet is better.

HSTs use a deep bullet cannilure which serves two functions. It helps prevent core/jacket separation, and it helps prevent the bullet from over expanding. Remington tried to copy this with their Black Belt ammo.

Personally I still feel the HST is the best overall bullet design for the major calibers. It is about as durable as many bonded bullet designs, it has great penetration/expansion characteristics, and it is relatively affordable. We started using Speer G2s for a few years, and have gone back to the HST.

[CajunMP357]

Not Doc, but it is a electro-plating process. Soft lead bullets are submerged in a copper solution, and the copper molecules attach themselves to the lead molecules on the bullet's outer surface. The weak point of the process is that it needs softer lead bullets for the copper molecules to attach to, and the copper coating is pure copper which isn't very hard. The result is an overall soft bullet. Gold Dots use this process, although they have a copper partition in the middle to add strength and when the bullet expands you can see the copper "dot" in the center(hence "gold dots").

Bonded bullets are MUCH more durable since they use a harder lead alloy for the bullet, and a harder copper alloy for the jacket, which is then fused together using the same electro-chemical process as plated bullets. The jacket does not adhere to the core as well as a Gold Dot, but the overall structure of the bullet is better.

HSTs use a deep bullet cannilure which serves two functions. It helps prevent core/jacket separation, and it helps prevent the bullet from over expanding. Remington tried to copy this with their Black Belt ammo.

Personally I still feel the HST is the best overall bullet design for the major calibers. It is about as durable as many bonded bullet designs, it has great penetration/expansion characteristics, and it is relatively affordable. We started using Speer G2s for a few years, and have gone back to the HST.
Thanks so much for that very educating explanation. And, that is very cool to now know how Gold Dot received its name.
Q?; My go to SD round is RANGER T-SERIES (HST 2nd). I have seen a lot of ballistic gel/water tests with this ammo and have never seen bullet/jacket separation, even though it's a NON BONDED bullet. Why is this? Do the EVIL Talons have anything to do with this?

[KhanRad]

Q?; My go to SD round is RANGER T-SERIES (HST 2nd). I have seen a lot of ballistic gel/water tests with this ammo and have never seen bullet/jacket separation, even though it's a NON BONDED bullet. Why is this? Do the EVIL Talons have anything to do with this?

The Talons are a pretty good bullet design, and were the go-to round for a long time. 9mm 147gr RTs were Doc's favorite for a long time too. They were a good design in that the copper alloy talons went way down into the hollow point cavity and gave the nose much more durability than other JHPs on the market. They are still a great round, but I think many testers and users think that the HST is just a little bit better. The cuts in the nose of the HST allows the design to utilize a much thicker copper alloy jacket than other JHPs out there. Conventional JHPs have to use a thinner jacket, otherwise the bullet won't expand reliably. The HST cuts allow for more reliable expansion, and the thicker jacket allows for a more durable bullet. Speer copied the HST cuts in their G2 bullet.

[HCM]

All of the ballistic gel and water tests that I have watched/seen on the HST bullet, not one has separated from its jacket. But, I have also read a few articles about the HST being a NON BONDED bullet. If this were the case, wouldn't there be bullet/jacket separation? :confused:


The HST question has been answered. But in general you won’t see bullet / jacket seperation in standard Gel tests like bare gel or 4 layer denim. You normally only see it when shooting through intermediate barriers made of harder material like auto glass, auto body materials, etc.

My agency issues HST in 40 and Gold Dots in 9mm and .38. They work. Our last big purchase of Winchester Ranger 9mm incuded multiple lots with dud primers. As a result we had to relegate it to training / practice ammo. No matter how good tne Ranger /Talon bullet is they don’t do me any good if the rounds aren’t reliable.

Reliability & Shot placement > magic bullets.

[CajunMP357]

The HST question has been answered. But in general you won’t see bullet / jacket seperation in standard Gel tests like bare gel or 4 layer denim. You normally only see it when shooting through intermediate barriers made of harder material like auto glass, auto body materials, etc.

My agency issues HST in 40 and Gold Dots in 9mm and .38. They work. Our last big purchase of Winchester Ranger 9mm incuded multiple lots with dud primers. As a result we had to relegate it to training / practice ammo. No matter how good tne Ranger /Talon bullet is they don’t do me any good if the rounds aren’t reliable.

Reliability & Shot placement > magic bullets.

You know, this is the 3rd or 4th time I'm reading this about Ranger ammo. I have probably shot almost 500 rds. of Ranger T-Series .40 caliber ammo thru my FS M&P 2.0 without one hiccup. Most of it was from my cousins stash, and the rest was from a Baton Rouge indoor range. It was a mixture of tan box/black box.
I have shot well over 500 rds. of .40 caliber HST ammo from my 2.0 as well without any hiccups. I was taught very early in my shooting days to shoot AT LEAST 500 rds. of the SD ammo that you will be using to make sure there are NO problems. The only ammo that I had a lot of FTF/FTE were WWB FMJ 115 gr. 9mm target ammo. I shot it from a few 9mm guns to make sure it was the ammo and not the guns.

[Greg]

I buy Winchester Large Pistol primers by the 1000s and I can't recall a single dead primer in 20 years using them in 45 acp to 454 Casull.

Win SP primers did give me trouble ( 9mm and 40 s&w) so I've been using CCI for about 10 years.

[TiroFijo]

Not Doc, but it is a electro-plating process. Soft lead bullets are submerged in a copper solution, and the copper molecules attach themselves to the lead molecules on the bullet's outer surface. The weak point of the process is that it needs softer lead bullets for the copper molecules to attach to, and the copper coating is pure copper which isn't very hard. The result is an overall soft bullet. Gold Dots use this process, although they have a copper partition in the middle to add strength and when the bullet expands you can see the copper "dot" in the center(hence "gold dots").

Khan, is the lead core in the gold dot bullets really any softer? Is this necessary for electroplating?
I thought that the jackets (being pure copper) were the "soft" part of the bullet.

[KhanRad]

Khan, is the lead core in the gold dot bullets really any softer? Is this necessary for electroplating?
I thought that the jackets (being pure copper) were the "soft" part of the bullet.

Lyman #2 alloy has been the dominant lead alloy mix used in JHP loads in semiauto calibers for the last couple of decades. It makes for a nice sweet spot of strength and malleability. It is generally around 90% lead, 5% tin, 5% antimony and has a hardness around 16 Brinell. It has been about 10 years since I checked, but using a hardness gauge I calculated the hardness of the Gold Dot core to be around 13 Brinell. It doesn't seem like a lot, but most .38spl lead loads use a Brinell of around 12 so that the bullet is soft enough for the low pressure, low velocity cartridge to match the rifling twist and expand the bullet in tissue.

Even though the Gold Dot uses pure copper plating for its jacket, copper is still stronger than any lead alloy and Speer puts a relatively thick plating on their loads. Pure copper has a 35 Brinell hardness, so the strength of the Gold Dot is in its jacket. However, a traditional jacket can be much stronger since zinc, tin, and/or iron can be added to it for strength. Many traditional bullet jackets have a hardness of anywhere from soft brass(60 Brinell), all the way to soft phosphorus Bronze(150 Brinell). Bronze penetrators are around 200 Brinell.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not Doc, but it is a electro-plating process. Soft lead bullets are submerged in a copper solution, and the copper molecules attach themselves to the lead molecules on the bullet's outer surface. The weak point of the process is that it needs softer lead bullets for the copper molecules to attach to, and the copper coating is pure copper which isn't very hard. The result is an overall soft bullet. Gold Dots use this process, although they have a copper partition in the middle to add strength and when the bullet expands you can see the copper "dot" in the center(hence "gold dots").

Bonded bullets are MUCH more durable since they use a harder lead alloy for the bullet, and a harder copper alloy for the jacket, which is then fused together using the same electro-chemical process as plated bullets. The jacket does not adhere to the core as well as a Gold Dot, but the overall structure of the bullet is better.

HSTs use a deep bullet cannilure which serves two functions. It helps prevent core/jacket separation, and it helps prevent the bullet from over expanding. Remington tried to copy this with their Black Belt ammo.

Personally I still feel the HST is the best overall bullet design for the major calibers. It is about as durable as many bonded bullet designs, it has great penetration/expansion characteristics, and it is relatively affordable. We started using Speer G2s for a few years, and have gone back to the HST.

Overall solid info. Gold Dots do not have a partition though. The Gold Dot is an artifact of the hollow point being punched. Funny thing is, the engineers were trying to get rid of that dot, the marketing guys decided to use it as a cool name. Those bullets were called Unicore previously.

[TiroFijo]

Pure lead is 5 BHN... you estimated gold dot cores at 13, does the softer alloy (compared to Lyman #2 or eequivalent) helps any with the plating process?
Or is it just a product of the design, intended to balance it all combined with the hardness and thickness of the plated jacket?

I find it surprising that a core hardness 16 BHN has been standard on modern JHP designs... is this including the best designs (aka Doc GKR "the list")? I'm an experienced reloader and caster, and this hardness seems a bit high for this purpose. But what do I know, I never tested them.

[TiroFijo]

Overall solid info. Gold Dots do not have a partition though. The Gold Dot is an artifact of the hollow point being punched. Funny thing is, the engineers were trying to get rid of that dot, the marketing guys decided to use it as a cool name. Those bullets were called Unicore previously.

That's what I understand as well...

[HCM]

You know, this is the 3rd or 4th time I'm reading this about Ranger ammo. I have probably shot almost 500 rds. of Ranger T-Series .40 caliber ammo thru my FS M&P 2.0 without one hiccup. Most of it was from my cousins stash, and the rest was from a Baton Rouge indoor range. It was a mixture of tan box/black box.
I have shot well over 500 rds. of .40 caliber HST ammo from my 2.0 as well without any hiccups. I was taught very early in my shooting days to shoot AT LEAST 500 rds. of the SD ammo that you will be using to make sure there are NO problems. The only ammo that I had a lot of FTF/FTE were WWB FMJ 115 gr. 9mm target ammo. I shot it from a few 9mm guns to make sure it was the ammo and not the guns.

That was tan box made during the time Winchester was transitioning from their union shop plant in IL to their non union plant across the river in Missouri. Not the first issue with Win ammo for me. We’ve also had similar QC issues with Remington in the past.

Speer and federal have been outstanding quality.