Single Stack 9

[Sauer Koch]

My wife wants a new single stack 9, that she can carry in a Crossbreed belly band. Since this will be AIWB, she (and I) would like the gun to have a manual safety. The Sig 938 is on her radar, and I have held a Walther CCP, but it’s been a few months; anyone here have a CCP M2?

I really like the PPS M2, but no thumb safety...the Shield impressed her, but that thumb safety is too low profile for me...she doesn’t seem to think it’s an issue, but in an oh shit moment, I’m worried that she may ‘think’ she has disengaged it, and not. I just wish it was a little more pronounced.

Kahr has the P9 with a thumb safety, are these guns generally considered reliable?

Thanks.

[JAD]

I would say the best choice in that range is a Dan Wesson CCO, followed by a Glock 43 with an SCD.

[Redhat]

My wife wants a new single stack 9, that she can carry in a Crossbreed belly band. Since this will be AIWB, she (and I) would like the gun to have a manual safety. The Sig 938 is on her radar, and I have held a Walther CCP, but it’s been a few months; anyone here have a CCP M2?

I really like the PPS M2, but no thumb safety...the Shield impressed her, but that thumb safety is too low profile for me...she doesn’t seem to think it’s an issue, but in an oh shit moment, I’m worried that she may ‘think’ she has disengaged it, and not. I just wish it was a little more pronounced.

Kahr has the P9 with a thumb safety, are these guns generally considered reliable?

Thanks.

What does she use now?

[Sauer Koch]

She has an M11 A-1 now, and although she really likes the DA, it’s just too heavy for the belly band, and hasn’t been carrying it, but keeps one in her car. She said if she had something like the Shield/PPS, that she’d be carrying way more.

[Zeke38]

I've been perfectly happy with my Kahrs, CW9 and CM9. If she's had good experience with a Smith snub I would recommend the Kahr(s). Think of the CW9 as a 8 or 9 shot J frame with a 8 round reload in 3.0 seconds and usable sights and a 6 pound smooth as glass trigger.

That is the beauty of the Kahr. I started carrying revolvers (Smith Model 15s) for Uncle Sam in 1965, still have a few laying about, no J frames, anymore. I carry a Kahr and the 9s have been flawless in over 1,500 rounds. The CM45 one glitch fixed at the factory and the CW45 has been flawless for the past five years.

CW9 for the win, no safeties good sights that mimic the Sig and shoots 9mm very accurately. Weighs less than 20ozs loaded and less than an inch thick,

$300, and some change, at your local Kahr shop.

[Redhat]

She has an M11 A-1 now, and although she really likes the DA, it’s just too heavy for the belly band, and hasn’t been carrying it, but keeps one in her car. She said if she had something like the Shield/PPS, that she’d be carrying way more.

If it has to have a usable safety lever, I think your choices in a single stack 9mm will be somewhat limited.

[Sauer Koch]

Yes, they are! The CCP seems to be the ticket, feature wise, but I’m trying to decide if it’s been proven reliable, to consider it good to go?

[camsdaddy]

The shield would be perfect if it had a usable safety. I have never understood why the made it so low profile. I had hoped someone would have come out with an aftermarket lever.

[Redhat]

Yes, they are! The CCP seems to be the ticket, feature wise, but I’m trying to decide if it’s been proven reliable, to consider it good to go?

You might check out the Ruger offerings.

[Sauer Koch]

The SR9c looks interesting...

[Redhat]

The SR9c looks interesting...

I was thinking LC9s Pro or EC9s. I think the SR9c's are double stack

[Sauer Koch]

Yes, a double, but at 23oz, I may be able to sell her on it...and with a 10round mag, that will help keep the weight down some.

[Redhat]

Yes, a double, but at 23oz, I may be able to sell her on it...and with a 10round mag, that will help keep the weight down some.
I just ran across a S&W Shield with a normal style t/s...I guess it’s the Gen 1.0 model? She really liked the 2.0, so this might be the one! Any reason to avoid a 1.0 Shield?

I have one with the safety and IMO, the safety is too small for me to reliably manipulated under stress. Aside from that, mine has been 100% reliable over the last 3 or 4 years.

I haven't messed with the 2.0 model so can't say on that. If they'd just offer the same safety they put on the Shield .380EZ, I'd be much happier.

[Sauer Koch]

Sorry, not a Shield...it’s the M&P 9c 12+1...23oz, I think this will work...

[Chuck Whitlock]

FWIW, my wife has a Walther PPS M2, and the striker indicator acts kind of like a SCD.
Otherwise, my Kahr K9 and CW9 have smooth, light DA trigger strokes.

[Mark D]

The shield would be perfect if it had a usable safety. I have never understood why the made it so low profile. I had hoped someone would have come out with an aftermarket lever.

I've been hoping the same thing. Not holding my breath though.

[MGW]

The Kahr's are really safe for belly band carry. The long DA like trigger would work really well in that role. P9's can be found cheap on Gunbroker. A shield with a safety and lots of practice would be a really good choice too. Would probalby be more shootable for your wife. You might also look at Sig 239's. They can be found easily enough and would bring familiarity over from the 229 platform. It's not exactly light weight but I have carried one in a Smart Carry in the past. There's also the XDE from Springfield but I have no experience with it.

[Sauer Koch]

FYI, there is a M&P 9c model (#206304) 3.5” barrel, 12+1, thas the regular thumb safety like the full size guns, which is more like a 1911, granted it’s a double stack.

The other is an M&P 2.0, 3.6”, 15+1, with the same t/s.

I’m glad to see that I’m not alone in thinking that the super low profile t/s on the Shield is a very poor design.

[Bucky]

The Sig 938 is on her radar....

My 938 has been a reliable gun, tested with many different types of premium ammo. The safety on it is quite usable, as well, unlike my Shield.

[Sauer Koch]

My 938 has been a reliable gun, tested with many different types of premium ammo. The safety on it is quite usable, as well, unlike my Shield.

Good to know. The thing is, she’s wanting a lighter gun, yet one that still has decent capacity. That, is where it gets tricky! She has small, but very strong hands, so as long as she can reach the trigger ok on the M&P 9c, I think she will just have to deal with the 24oz weight, which isn’t much, considering it’ll give her 12+1...sounds great on paper, now I have to sell her on it!

Or...give up capacity, and go with a Kahr P9 w/thumb safety, Sig 938, or Walther CCP...we shall see.

[Redhat]

Good to know. The thing is, she’s wanting a lighter gun, yet one that still has decent capacity. That, is where it gets tricky! She has small, but very strong hands, so as long as she can reach the trigger ok on the M&P 9c, I think she will just have to deal with the 24oz weight, which isn’t much, considering it’ll give her 12+1...sounds great on paper, now I have to sell her on it!

Or...give up capacity, and go with a Kahr P9 w/thumb safety, Sig 938, or Walther CCP...we shall see.

Unfortunately smaller, lighter and higher capacity don't always go together. Then there's the problem of shoot-ability; light weight smaller guns being great for carrying around...not so great when you need it in an emergency but because it was so unpleasant to shoot...you rarely practiced with it. Sometimes it's tuff to find a workable solution.

[Sauer Koch]

Yes, I agree. Having shot a Sig 226/229 and 1911’s for the last 2.5 yrs, she finally got to shoot my friends brand new G43, and she shot pretty well with it. It was a big change in size, but with practice, I’m sure she’d be accurate with it, to feel safe carrying it, but with no t/s, she’s not open to that idea, neither am I.
So, we’re looking for that ‘in between’ a G43 and a 229, and lighter.

[HCM]

If she spots the M11A1 well, maybe the answer is a better belly band rather than a smaller gun.

Despite their claims of “first on the market” the crossbreed is simply a knock off of the Keepers Flex

http://keepersconcealment.com/products/#1473634238676-7866a5ff-1979

Another good option is the Unity Tactical Cluch

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26485-Unity-tactical-clutch-belt

[Sauer Koch]

If she spots the M11A1 well, maybe the answer is a better belly band rather than a smaller gun.

Despite their claims of “first on the market” the crossbreed is simply a knock off of the Keepers Flex

http://keepersconcealment.com/products/#1473634238676-7866a5ff-1979

Another good option is the Unity Tactical Cluch

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26485-Unity-tactical-clutch-belt

I wasn’t aware of either of these, thanks!!

[Sauer Koch]

Well, I sold her on the higher capacity M&P 9c, she will go hold one tomorrow, just to be sure it’s a good fit, which I’m sure it will be.


30016

[Balisong]

Well, I sold her on the higher capacity M&P 9c, she will go hold one tomorrow, just to be sure it’s a good fit, which I’m sure it will be.


30016

Along those lines, if the m&p9c is a tad too much for her grip, maybe check out a P30sk with safety? Still a double stack, but with the small panels/back strap installed it may be a little smaller grip than the m&p. I'm not sure on that, just spitballing. My gf has small hands and likes the P30sk quite a bit.

[Sauer Koch]

Ironically, that was one that she held last week, but said it was too heavy. I explained to her that you can’t have both high capacity and lite weight, together, that you have to choose which one you want more, or less of. IMO, the 9c has the best compromise of the two, and gives her the safety she wants. If the Shield had a t/s like the 9c, I would have felt fine with her getting it, but that tiny thing is crap!

A local range has a 9c for sale, so she will go look at it Monday, and hit another range if that goes well, so that she can shoot one.

The P30sk could still be an option, after I convinced her that it’s really not a heavy gun. We dry fired a LEM, and a DA/SA, and she didn’t like one of them, just don’t remember which.

It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out.

Thanks for the comments.

[Gewehr3]

You could have a gunsmith weld on a decent ledge on the Shield's safety.

[Balisong]

Ironically, that was one that she held last week, but said it was too heavy. I explained to her that you can’t have both high capacity and lite weight, together, that you have to choose which one you want more, or less of. IMO, the 9c has the best compromise of the two, and gives her the safety she wants. If the Shield had a t/s like the 9c, I would have felt fine with her getting it, but that tiny thing is crap!

A local range has a 9c for sale, so she will go look at it Monday, and hit another range if that goes well, so that she can shoot one.

The P30sk could still be an option, after I convinced her that it’s really not a heavy gun. We dry fired a LEM, and a DA/SA, and she didn’t like one of them, just don’t remember which.

It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out.

Thanks for the comments.

The P30sk does have a bit of weight for its size, but I love the feel of it personally. The LEM is a great trigger system, and my guess is she'd like it more than the DA/SA version.....but have either of you handled the safety version? You can run it cocked and locked. I haven't shot that version yet, but just in handling it the safety feels good to me, and I like how it puts my thumb up where I like it. I THINK that would also help keep my thumb from accidentally hitting the slide release and keeping it from not locking back on empty.

[MattyD380]

Smith 3913/3914. Decocker with a manual safety. 8 rounds. Nice and thin. Good trigger. Proven reliable.

Not sure how you feel about cocked and locked carry AIWB (e.g., 938) but something like this would help you avoid it.

Plus... you can get the Lady Smith version:

https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/5648180059/8947532/12342-1.gif_thumbnail1.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

There's also the "Not Ladysmith" version.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Men_In_Black#Smith_.26_Wesson_3913NL

[Duelist]

Smith 3913/3914. Decocker with a manual safety. 8 rounds. Nice and thin. Good trigger. Proven reliable.

Not sure how you feel about cocked and locked carry AIWB (e.g., 938) but something like this would help you avoid it.

Plus... you can get the Lady Smith version:

https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/5648180059/8947532/12342-1.gif_thumbnail1.jpg

I am a fan. I have a 3913 and 3953 (DAO version), and 4516-1. Had a 3913LS as well. All are great guns, but not in current production.

[Redhat]

I am a fan. I have a 3913 and 3953 (DAO version), and 4516-1. Had a 3913LS as well. All are great guns, but not in current production.

How much support currently exists for those older S&W's? Parts, repairs, magazines, holsters?

[Sauer Koch]

You could have a gunsmith weld on a decent ledge on the Shield's safety.

I actually considered this, but knowing that it’s a MIM part, I wasn’t sure you could weld on it, without degrading the strength of the part, please correct me if I’m wrong. If it was tool-steel, obviously a different discussion.

As to the S&W Mentioned...I’d like to buy a current production gun, so I don’t have to worry about finding mags, etc, but I’m sure those are very nice pistols, thanks.

[Duelist]

How much support currently exists for those older S&W's? Parts, repairs, magazines, holsters?

Parts can be had, but factory production has been sporadic, and I expect it to either end or it is already done. Factory support, if it is a major component, is to kill the gun and replace it with an M&P. There are a lot of former police armorers who know how to keep them running, and parts kits can be had so you can have one of just about anything that might fail. Springs can be had, either factory or Wolff. Magazines for the 39xx guns have been easy to get, and not too expensive. For the .45, they're more uncommon and expensive. Holsters are easy enough to get, but may not be from your favorite maker.

Basically, you have to really like them to keep a stable of them in active use, because you're going to have to learn how to maintain them and may have to learn a lot about parts scrounging. Kind of sad state for such high quality guns to be in, when contemporary designs are still made and have factory support.

I still shoot them, but ... I've seen the light, and have converted to mostly carrying Glocks. I traded off the most pristine and complete one (box, docs, tools, etc) for an N-frame S&W .357.

[HCM]

Parts can be had, but factory production has been sporadic, and I expect it to either end or it is already done. Factory support, if it is a major component, is to kill the gun and replace it with an M&P. There are a lot of former police armorers who know how to keep them running, and parts kits can be had so you can have one of just about anything that might fail. Springs can be had, either factory or Wolff. Magazines for the 39xx guns have been easy to get, and not too expensive. For the .45, they're more uncommon and expensive. Holsters are easy enough to get, but may not be from your favorite maker.

Basically, you have to really like them to keep a stable of them in active use, because you're going to have to learn how to maintain them and may have to learn a lot about parts scrounging. Kind of sad state for such high quality guns to be in, when contemporary designs are still made and have factory support.

I still shoot them, but ... I've seen the light, and have converted to mostly carrying Glocks. I traded off the most pristine and complete one (box, docs, tools, etc) for an N-frame S&W .357.

SIG still offers the P229 for LE Agency sales only. This may be based on existing parts stocks. They also discontinued the P239 magazines which has lead to price gouging.

S&W was still doing a few S&W 3rd Gen Guns for LE contracts like NYPD, RCMP, CHP, WVSP etc but that has completely ceased. This is why NYPD approved G17’s with 15 round mags to replace the 5946.

[MattyD380]

How much support currently exists for those older S&W's? Parts, repairs, magazines, holsters?

From what I heard, Smith has stopped making spare parts. They may or may not work on a gun if you send it to them. I will say, they performed the recall work on my 1076 no questions asked, free of charge.

That said...

The guns are tough and reliable. I've heard that old extractors might get chipped or broken now and then. But I've never experienced that on any of my 3rd gens. Short of spring changes, I'm not sure what else would really be at high risk of breaking on a 3913. Unless, of course, you put like, 40,000 rounds through your carry gun. Even then... Numrich still sells barrels. You can probably still buy extractors too (I've heard 3rd gen extractors require some measure of hand fitting; so, you might need someone with the right setup to do that... on that note, there's a guy on the Smith forum who does excellent work on 3rd gens).

Maybe... buy two. Or three.

[Sauer Koch]

Well, she threw me a curve ball, and decided to go with the P30sk (DA), which I’m fine with, since she won’t be forced to relearn the operating features (thumb safety); her current gun being an M11 A-1.

She said since the P30 weighs the same as the M&P 9c, “I’ll just get the HK and stick with DA”.

She really likes a TDA gun, and this should be a sweet one. She will go to our LGS on Tuesday when they open, and get it, since I’m out of town at work, we don’t want them to sell it!

I’ll report back with some pics from our initial range visit next Thursday or Friday.

[Redhat]

Well, she threw me a curve ball, and decided to go with the P30sk (DA), which I’m fine with, since she won’t be forced to relearn the operating features (thumb safety); her current gun being an M11 A-1.

She said since the P30 weighs the same as the M&P 9c, “I’ll just get the HK and stick with DA”.

She really likes a TDA gun, and this should be a sweet one. She will go to our LGS on Tuesday when they open, and get it, since I’m out of town at work, we don’t want them to sell it!

I’ll report back with some pics from our initial range visit next Thursday or Friday.

This has been an interesting thread to me and I'm glad she found what she likes but I'm a little confused...

What are the practical differences between the SIG and HK?

[Sauer Koch]

Weight...I know, not much. Her M11 fully loaded is 29oz empty, and 33oz full. The P30 is 24oz empty, so I’m not sure how much the 11 rounds will add?

It’s been a learning process for her, but if a lighter gun that she’s comfy with, will mean that she carries it, then that’s a win.
...and the belly band holster combo from Crossbreed is compatible with the P30sk, but not the M11, so for her, the carry rig had a very strong influence on what gun she went with. Luckily, she liked the feel of the HK, and it being DA was just a no brainer.

[Balisong]

Weight...I know, not much. Her M11 fully loaded is 29oz empty, and 33oz full. The P30 is 24oz empty, so I’m not sure how much the 11 rounds will add?

It’s been a learning process for her, but if a lighter gun that she’s comfy with, will mean that she carries it, then that’s a win.
...and the belly band holster combo from Crossbreed is compatible with the P30sk, but not the M11, so for her, the carry rig had a very strong influence on what gun she went with. Luckily, she liked the feel of the HK, and it being DA was just a no brainer.

That's cool, hope she loves it. Keep in mind, if she likes the gun but feels the DA pull is too heavy/long for her, there are several different spring swaps that can be done that are discussed quite a bit in various threads here that should make it easier. And then the LEM is even easier. I don't know if she has hand strength issues, I'm only bringing it up because as I mentioned my gf also has small hands, but also is pretty weak with them so she has some limiting in factors in what guns she can operate. Look forward to the review. Oh, and if you weren't already aware, there are 13 and 15 round magazines available made specifically to fit the P30sk and vp9sk. Good option if she wants it also as a bedside/house gun when she gets home from carrying it, she can swap out to a higher capacity magazine since she won't be concerned with carrying the weight at home.

[Sauer Koch]

She has very strong grip from lifting, so finger strength isn’t an issue. Yes, I saw the 13/15 round mags, and depending on how the trigger feels, we may go that route, with the springs, or maybe send off to Robert Burke for an action job.

Thanks for the tip on the springs.

[HeavyDuty]

I am a fan. I have a 3913 and 3953 (DAO version), and 4516-1. Had a 3913LS as well. All are great guns, but not in current production.

Big 3913 fan here, too - I bought the first one that showed up at my local dealer. I always wanted the NL version, and a 3953 but they never happened.

[gruntjim]

The SR9c looks interesting...

My ex-wife had an SR9c. We couldn't make it jam.

But I think, if you factored in the ease of use, and the presence of the striker extension's use as a Gadget, she might be well served with a PPS.

But then, I'm an unashamed Walther fan.

[Sauer Koch]

She went down and held the HK’s again, both LEM & DA/SA. The LEM was a used gun, and the DA/SA was new. She liked the feel of the LEM, and looked at it as being the same as a DA/SA, which isn’t too far off. The more I read about it, the more interesting it gets. We both have been shooting TDA Sigs for the last 2.5 yrs exclusively, so the attributes of both trigger systems has merit, it’s just tough to decide if I the LEM would be better for her? After everything I’ve read, it may simply be a matter of different, but not necessarily better?

Any comments to sway me one direction or the other are welcome.

[OlongJohnson]

Do a deep dive on P30 LEM trigger options. The "Todd Green variant" is said to be more like a DA, so she may like that.

[Sauer Koch]

Well, we discussed it, and decided to get the LEM trigger. It’ll be in layaway for 4-6 weeks, but I’ll report back after our initial range visit.

[Sauer Koch]

Update: The gun is in layaway, and since I've bought several guns from them and have developed a relationship with them, they allowed us to shoot the gun, even though it's not paid off, which was very cool of them. I had bought one of the HK 13 round mags with and brought it with us. My wife shot both mags but didn't like the 13r mag, and shot better with the 10r w/extension. She said the recoil was fine, and likes the trigger, and "loves it" in general. She was the one who picked the LEM over the DA/SA, so I'm glad she ended up liking it.

As far as the characteristics of the LEM itself, after everything I've read in the last few weeks, my first impression is that it's not that big of a deal. But, keep in mind we've both been shooting P-Series Sigs consistently for the last 2.5 yrs, so the only thing to adjust to was the super lite pre travel, prior to hitting the wall. Pulling through the wall, to the break is VERY smooth, with NO sign of grittiness, it's just smooth movement, and BANG! One of the very best factory triggers I've felt, and that's how a gun should come from the factory. I really believe that all of the time and effort we put into being proficient with our Sig TDA's has really paid off in the long run, as it makes any other trigger seem easy.

Having big hands, I was pleased with how it shot, considering it's a sub-compact. I didn't notice anything about it so far that I didn't like. It's not my gun, but that's even better, in case I want to carry it. I've held most of the poly guns (Canik, S&W, CZ, FN, Glock, Kahr, Walther, etc.) and I've liked a few of those, the Walther PPS M2 being at the top of the list, but the VP & P30 really stood out to me with the ergos and build quality, so I think we made a great choice.

She still shoots her 229/M11 A-1 very well, and is comfy with it, which is great, and the triggers are close enough that she'd be fine picking up either, but will now focus solely on the HK, since it will be her carry gun once we run 500 HST through it, along with a few hundred FMJ.

All that to say, we're both very impressed so far! We ran 150r through it today, with no issues, and looking forward to more.