The Big Flash Contributes to Psychological Stopping Power

[Glenn E. Meyer]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/357-sig-whats-the-point/

Lots of analyses indicate that psychological stopping power might be a factor in why sometimes small caliber guns seem effective. Their appearance deters and any hit causes the less than maniacally motivated to cease.

The article suggests that anecdotal reports on the 357 sig suggests superior stopping power is due to the big boom and flash. The other metrics don't suggest the round is that great.

This made me laugh as the most scary boom I ever experienced was from my NAA 22 mag with a 1 5/8" barrel. I was in an indoor range and fired off a round (don't remember what it was). Well, there was a giant fireball, boom and pressure wave that I felt push my limited amount of hair back and go under my glasses significantly. I slammed my eyes shut instinctively. I slowed opened them as I was sure the gun blew up and maybe I did also. I was OK. I think the giant boom bounced off the side walls of the lane contributing to the effect.

I still have the little gun and haven't shot it for awhile.

As far as the 357 Sig, I was in an intensive handgun class and a female shooter had a 357 Glock (don't remember the model, one of the 19 sized models probably). She was having a terrible time with it in drills (as with plates). The instructors traded her down to a 9mm and she was just fine.

[Totem Polar]

The hottest 1500+fps .327 Fed mag loads out of a 3" gun would scare Beethoven or Helen Keller. That’s all I know.

[JRB]

The 8.5in barreled PTR-91 pistols in .308 must be the most powerful weapons on the planet, by that metric.

They're a lot of fun for about 20 rounds on semi and then you're just ready for it to be over. It's a real hoot as an SBR'd sear host, though!

[MK11]

The overall premise might be correct but I think they're transposing some of the lore of the .357 mag onto the .357 Sig. Wouldn't most .357 Sig duty loads be using some kind of flash retardant? It ain't the 1970's with someone cutting loose with a .357 mag fireball (notable that they used a picture of a revolver belching flame at the end, not a .357 Sig).

The .357 Sig gets knocked and rightfully so for not doing anything better than the top 9mm loads at the expense of recoil, blast and durability. The reverse of that is the .357 Sig also performs like best 9mm loads do--usually put somebody down hard when shot in the right place.

[TiroFijo]

Have anybody else notice that muzzle flash (or at least the perception) varies a lot from shot to shot, especially in daylight? Even when you are looking purposefully and carefully, and calm?

Muzzle blast is more constant, but depending on auditory exclusion can also be perceived very differently.

[GuanoLoco]

It may depend on when you blink.

Different powders will ahve more/less flash, and it may vary by shot. If you’e ever experienced someone shooting Power Pistol (a flashy blasty cracky powder) you will know what I mean.

[BehindBlueI's]

I remember when I advanced the theory here that muzzle flash/blast might be contributing to psychological stops and a few folks basically told me to sit in the corner and color. I've long suspected this is why the .357 magnum had such a reputation beyond what just the numbers would show.

[Mark D]

A few weeks ago, while reading old P-F threads, I saw a reference to muzzle blast and flash being one of the benefits of snub nose revolvers. Especially in the magnum calibers.

I'm not a fan of excessive blast or flash, so my reactions was "wait, wat??".

If I recall correctly, I think DaggaBoy had some input on that particular conversation. Unfortunately I can't remember what thread it was.

[GuanoLoco]

After shooting my bud’s 2.6” snub .44Mag the first thing I always think is that, after the first shot, every one with a brain in their head is going to suddenly remember somewhere else they need to be. And that’s with ear pro.

[Hambo]

IIRC Chuck Haggard liked a J-frame magnum for this reason.

[Totem Polar]

Paging Dagga Boy

#powderflashbang (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=powderflashbang)

[Lex Luthier]

A few weeks ago, while reading old P-F threads, I saw a reference to muzzle blast and flash being one of the benefits of snub nose revolvers. Especially in the magnum calibers.

I'm not a fan of excessive blast or flash, so my reactions was "wait, wat??".

If I recall correctly, I think DaggaBoy had some input on that particular conversation. Unfortunately I can't remember what thread it was.

That might have been the one where he was speaking of setting the target's shirt on fire. I'm coming up goose eggs, too.

[BehindBlueI's]

Paging Dagga Boy

#powderflashbang (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=powderflashbang)

Well, he chimed in back in '15 when I asked if anyone had actually done a study as I was starting to work out they hypothesis on my own: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17290-Any-studies-of-psychological-stops&highlight=flash

[Dagga Boy]

Well, he chimed in back in '15 when I asked if anyone had actually done a study as I was starting to work out they hypothesis on my own: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17290-Any-studies-of-psychological-stops&highlight=flash

That saved some typing....thanks

[scjbash]

I know a cop who was shot at in very low light by a shithead with a .50 Desert Eagle. It wasn't the first or last time he's been shot at but it was certainly the one that made an impression on him.

[Totem Polar]

Well, he chimed in back in '15 when I asked if anyone had actually done a study as I was starting to work out they hypothesis on my own: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17290-Any-studies-of-psychological-stops&highlight=flash

That is exactly the thread and post I was thinking of. :cool:

[jtcarm]

I’ve been on the wrong side of the muzzle (luckily not in-line) of idiots with guns a couple of times. At close range.

I believe for most people who have not experienced the sensation before (and even some who have), the initial reaction is “OMG, am I hit?”.

For me, that was quickly replaced by an insane desire to kill the asshole.

BTW, this was in broad daylight both times, no significant flash.

[Mark D]

Well, he chimed in back in '15 when I asked if anyone had actually done a study as I was starting to work out they hypothesis on my own: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17290-Any-studies-of-psychological-stops&highlight=flash

Very interesting thread, but not the one I mentioned earlier, where somebody advocated the magnum flash and report as a positive feature. Whoever it was, he had credibility, which is why it caught my attention. Perhaps it was Mr. Hazard instead of DB.

[MistWolf]

I just watched a vid by Warrior Poet about this subject. He said he doesn't use a suppressor on his house defense AR because he wants a "fire breathing dragon" to frighten off the badguys that have broken into his house.

I figure it's like the old cop telling me (back in the 70s) that he preferred the Ithaca pump shotguns to all the others because it made the most noise when you racked a round into the chamber.

[LSP552]

When I hired on in 1978, LSP issues High standard derringers in .22 mag as backups. Shooting those at night were pretty impressive....

[Jaywalker]

Flash and bang always sounded like a good psychological tool to me. It might be the reason those high on drugs are harder to put down - they don't notice the shot or even if they're hit.

OTOH, as an aging shooter with equally aging eyes, the last thing I want to do is be blinded and deafened in the presence of a younger someone who recovers more quickly, so I'll use the low-flash powders and suppressor, if and when.

[BehindBlueI's]

Flash and bang always sounded like a good psychological tool to me. It might be the reason those high on drugs are harder to put down - they don't notice the shot or even if they're hit.

OTOH, as an aging shooter with equally aging eyes, the last thing I want to do is be blinded and deafened in the presence of a younger someone who recovers more quickly, so I'll use the low-flash powders and suppressor, if and when.

I don't think it's equal on both sides of the gun on the noise side. One, you're expecting it and your brain isn't going to react the same because you know the noise is coming from you. Two, auditory exclusion may keep you from really hearing it at all. I heard the buffer spring "boing" plain as day, but the report of my rifle was extremely muted.

I'm not sure on the light part. I know I've noticed it on ported magnum guns and found it distracting, but that's probably a different level and also maybe (?) something you could acclimate yourself to since it doesn't last long. Dunno.

[Jaywalker]

I don't think it's equal on both sides of the gun on the noise side. One, you're expecting it and your brain isn't going to react the same because you know the noise is coming from you. Two, auditory exclusion may keep you from really hearing it at all. I heard the buffer spring "boing" plain as day, but the report of my rifle was extremely muted.

I'm not sure on the light part. I know I've noticed it on ported magnum guns and found it distracting, but that's probably a different level and also maybe (?) something you could acclimate yourself to since it doesn't last long. Dunno.
I'm not sure about the light from the flash, either; I wonder if anyone's done research. It does come and go pretty quickly, maybe fast enough so it doesn't blind you. The sound, however, is pressure on the eardrum, through the sinuses, eye cavities. I have no doubt you heard the slide by itself, but I can't see any mechanism that would prevent auditory overload - did you have ringing right afterward or other symptoms of nearby shots?

[BehindBlueI's]

did you have ringing right afterward or other symptoms of nearby shots?

No.

[Lester Polfus]

I once had occasion to pull the trigger on an SBR AR15 in a very small space. All I heard was a muted pop and thought I had the misfortune to fire a squib round on my worst day at work, but then saw it had done the job.

Stuff like that is weird. The guy behind me said it was super loud.