The Golden Age begins.....

[Dagga Boy]

I was in deep thought last night when I couldn’t sleep. I had an LTT Beretta next to the bed that I have been using as a dry practice gun because it’s trigger and controls exactly match my LTT Elite. I was thinking “where was this thing all these years”. I thought about the glorious Colt 1911 pistol. It was in military service for 60 plus years before it got the attention it deserved and the early 70’s brought about 30 years of incredible development in parts, modifications and the training and shooting improvements that all occurred together. The Glock and Beretta are in the same place now. 30 plus years and we are really seeing huge improvements in parts, modifications, and the training and development that have moved along with it. Like the Colt 1911, the Glock has hatched a bunch of similar styled striker fired service pistols. The Beretta has kind of done the same where the DA/SA Guns are concerned.

Like the 1911, I think many companies are going through ups and downs in production quality and QC/QA and of course a roller coaster of customer service between eras. Now that the Sig is replacing the Beretta in military service like the Beretta replaces the Colt, we are seeing some great development of an unrestrained system that has the foundation of military demanded QC/QA.

Overall, it’s a neat time, and I am having a pretty good time diving into a brave new world. I am seeing what it must of been like for a guy who carried a 1911 for decades as an issue gun and retiring and seeing what Swenson, Pachmayer, Kings, Clark and many others were doing with those guns, while watching Leatham, Enos, and others run the crap out of them.......meanwhile, kind of watching these companies trying to figure it out...something Colt made an art of screwing up the transition.

[MattyD380]

This is really cool thinking. "Past is prologue," as they say.

Interesting that this "golden age" is multi-faceted: Striker & DA/SA. While I suppose DA/SA really began as an outgrowth of the emerging expertise around the 1911, it's now finding a renewed sense of maturity, juxtaposed to striker-fired guns. I think the internet has been a boon to gun culture 2.0, so to speak; the exchange of ideas, and the consumer voice probably has more influence on the industry than ever before.

And, as you said, I hope military-mandated QC translates to better products all around. And personally, I'd like to see DA/SA continue regain ground, and drive further innovation/product differentiation.

[Craig@SSD]

Couldn't agree more Dagga Boy. It's a great time to be a gun enthusiast. Innovation is prevalent throughout the industry, and viable options are at an all-time high.

[okie john]

SNIP…meanwhile, kind of watching these companies trying to figure it out...SNIP

The “figuring it out” piece is huge.

During the Golden Age of the 1911, gun rags were a way for the manufacturers to get a message out to the public, but if a member of the public wanted to respond, he had to write a letter to the editor, snail mail it, and hope that someone at the magazine didn’t think that it threatened ad dollars from the gun makers. With luck, it might get a response months later. Jeff Cooper was somewhat of an antidote to that, but he did at least as much as the gun rags to stifle innovation even as he claimed to promote it.

The democratic flow of information made possible by forums like this one (and a very few others) will be the biggest drivers of innovation as we move forward. The most important thing they have done has been to shift the focus from hardware to software and tactics. As a result, guys who really understand this stuff (Ernest Langdon, Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, DocGKR, Pat Rogers, John Hearne, Cecil Burch, Tom Givens, Wayne Dobbs, and yes, Dagga Boy) can lead the thinking and discussions rather than being confined to being local experts.

Definitely interesting times.


Okie John

[BillSWPA]

I agree that the Internet has been critical. When my Dad began carrying a gun in the 1980’s, his holster choices were limited to whatever the local gun stores carried. If he was lucky, that meant Bianchi, but some of his holsters were Triple K. It was not easy to find the good stuff unl we one knew where to request a catalog.

Kydex holsters were not even available. IWB carry generally meant soft leather with a belt clip. Good subcompact guns also did not exist. The best one could hope for was a small frame .38 or a .380 that is bigger than some 9mm’s we have today. If something smaller was needed, the options were .22 and .25 caliber.

I stopped reading the gun magazines a long time ago. The only thing I bother reading now is a very small number of forums with a small number of knowledgeable participants.




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[Mark D]

DB makes a good point. Of course Glock has had a ton of aftermarket support for a while. But it's very cool to see that trend expanding to other platforms.

I've just dipped my toe into the Beretta world, and I'm been amazed at the level of support. It's awesome to have really high quality components and service from folks like Ernest Langdon and Wilson Combat, but even the factory has gotten in the game. Want different levers? Tons of choices. Want a different trigger spring? Options abound. Want a whole new trigger? No problem!

I'm loving it.

[Trooper224]

I've been living with the Beretta 92 for a bit over four years now. Coming to the 92 from the 1911 world where nearly everything except the grips screws need fitting, I've been very happy with the ease of maintenance and simply the overall lack of issues with the 92. When the 92 was replaced I suspected there would be something of a resurgence for the design, just like we saw with the 1911. Once the company was no longer relying on a government contract, or being hamstrung by one depending on your point of view, I suspected we'd see an increase in commercial focus on the type. The nostalgia factor also can't be denied. A lot of those guys who hated the 1911 with a passion when we used it in the service later became fans due to the desire to reconnect with the good old days.


Having grown up in an era wherein gun magazines and gunshops were the main sources of information and when choices in serious defensive handguns were far more limited, I can say with one hundred percent certainty that we're experiencing an embarrassment of riches in the gun world. Finding a good gun used to be the obstacle, now it's narrowing the field and making a choice.

[okie john]

It's awesome to have really high quality components and service from folks like Ernest Langdon and Wilson Combat, but even the factory has gotten in the game.

I hope that this becomes the way of the future. Having a range of factory original upgrades available might kill a few small companies, but it would be heavenly for users.


Okie John

[JonInWA]

When viewed strictly from it's technical specifications and operational guidance processes, the Beretta 92 seems to be a bit of a dark horse for the resurgence its currently undergoing. It's comprised of a myriad of parts, some of them requiring relatively complex manufacturing techniques, is somewhat large (particularly for a 9mm platform), and is fairly lubrication intensive.

The reality is that the Beretta 92 is superbly designed, and in production has been the beneficiary of an exceptionally high quality of both materials, manufacturing processes, and quality control. And it's a joy to shoot, providing shooters with excellent input as the trigger is manipulated in all of it's various action alternatives.

And. lately, the lily has been significantly gilded by the attentions and improvements lavished on it by Ernest Langdon and Bill Wilson, with the collaborative relationship they've developed with Beretta (it's been nice to see Erik Stern from BUSA participating here). There efforts, improvements, and thoughts on technique making the most out of the platform's capabilities have been exceptionally transformative. Thanks to them, Beretta 92 owners can enhance their pistols both in terms of technique and component improvements, and can do so in one (or two) fell swoops (either by purchasing a LTT 92 or a Wilson Combat 92) or incrementally (by purchasing high quality individual or grouped component sets from Beretta, Wilson, and/or LTT, and Wolff-and others (particularly pertaining to available grip and sight options).

I've personally been the recipient of the largess of those discussed when it comes to equipping and running my personal Beretta, a 92D, which I've enjoyed documenting and discussing my 92 journey here on p-f.

The internet, and the quality of informed internet discussion (particularly on p-f, which has had a gratifyingly high level of both participant quality and discussion quality throughout its existence to date) has truly been a paradigm changer. And we're significantly seeing it here and now with the Beretta 92. Manufacturers, designers, gunsmiths, and users (at multiple levels) can achieve near instantaneous, and interactive collaborative feedback and discussion, which can result in fairly nimble manufacturing changes and market placements.

We are in a golden age. And it's been a pleasure to participate in.

Best, Jon

[Dagga Boy]

So....when you lay awake at night thinking about Beretta’s and the Golden Age if 80’s Guns...

Shot a Langdon warm up into four holes followed by a 300 HiTS Super Test with a Ernest Langdon tuned 92 G with an Elite barrel. I think based on the commentary and my own thoughts, the Beretta 92 is coming into its own 1911 age. Great for customization, not at Glock Level disposable and plug and play with parts. Mastering the de cocker to sub conscious is like getting the 1911 safety to sub conscious. I doubt we will see the 1911 level of popularity, but it will be a gun many “served with” and is capable of being built and customized to a great level.

[JonInWA]

Dagga, you, of all people, we really need to get you into a 92D or a 92D Centurion (or even the somewhat unicorn 92D Compact L Type M)-suitably Langdon-ized and Wilson-ized. Think of it as a semi-automatic Smith & Wesson-with an action like your classic Smith & Wessons. Seriously.

Best, Jon

[Redhat]

It cracks me up...all this Beretta love. Wasn't too many years ago, it was being panned as a dog...Locking blocks, unreliable magazines, heavy DA trigger, too big, trigger reach too long, slide-mounted decocker, wouldn't work in sand environments...on and on.

Now she's the Bell of the Ball! I love it!

[Gadfly]

I have 4 Berettas currently. Would LOVE an LTT and an M9A3 in Black... but I just don’t get to shoot the Berettas I have that often. Work makes me carry a Glock. So that is the majority of my time.

But my first personal purchase of a pistol was a 92FS in 1991, a gift to me for my 21st birthday. Then I carried an issued one in the Academy. The hook was set, the Love was there.

If I had more money, and more room in the safe, I would take a LTT over a Wilson.



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(So Excuse the typos)

[Dagga Boy]

Dagga, you, of all people, we really need to get you into a 92D or a 92D Centurion (or even the somewhat unicorn 92D Compact L Type M)-suitably Langdon-ized and Wilson-ized. Think of it as a semi-automatic Smith & Wesson-with an action like your classic Smith & Wessons. Seriously.

Best, Jon

I was thinking about you when I did my last post. You’re the Seecamp 1911 guy of our world....;-).

[Dagga Boy]

It cracks me up...all this Beretta love. Wasn't too many years ago, it was being panned as a dog...Locking blocks, unreliable magazines, heavy DA trigger, too big, trigger reach too long, slide-mounted decocker, wouldn't work in sand environments...on and on.

Now she's the Bell of the Ball! I love it!

Again....sort of like the 1911’s guys had “in the Army” that all rattled and they couldn’t hit a barn door with.

[WobblyPossum]

I just sold a gun for about what an LTT Elite with trigger job goes for. Are you TRYING to make me turn that money into a gun?


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[Moshjath]

I feel like the B92 isn’t the only platform experiencing this level of growth- look at the CZ75, which when I first started following Pistol-Training about a decade ago was generally derided. Now CZs are quite popular in the competitive shooting world, with shops like Cajun Gun Works offering quite a few upgrades. It has evolved from a duty gun/east bloc curiosity to quite the popular platform.

[willie]

He who takes B 92s for granted is unaware and unimformed. I've had at least one since the series hit the market. Beretta's manufacturing savvy and the company's commitment have given us this fine product. I know of no finer home defense handgun. In years past I enjoyed carrying one as a woods companion loaded with Federal's +p+ jhp's.

I too like CZ's but would never say that CZ has Beretta's manufacturing ability or level of sophistication. But this line has improved. Though I drink CZ kool aid, I think that if we were to see large scale issue of these pistols to U.S. law enforcement, then various problems might become evident. This is opinion.

[Doc_Glock]

So....when you lay awake at night thinking about Beretta’s and the Golden Age if 80’s Guns...

Shot a Langdon warm up into four holes followed by a 300 HiTS Super Test with a Ernest Langdon tuned 92 G with an Elite barrel.

That’s amazing! I think there must be a problem with my LTT though, because it will only shoot a 288.

[Dagga Boy]

In like 1987 ish I got a CZ75 that came in from Canada. It had been parkerized in the really greenish grey parkerization. Amazing gun in feel and had a great trigger. There was simply no support for it and I was at a time in life where I couldn’t keep guns just because I liked them. That got traded off and ended up with what I felt was the next best thing and easily supported, a SiG P-226, which is a gun I still love and what kept me out of Beretta for 25 years.

[revchuck38]

Dagga, you, of all people, we really need to get you into a 92D or a 92D Centurion (or even the somewhat unicorn 92D Compact L Type M)-suitably Langdon-ized and Wilson-ized. Think of it as a semi-automatic Smith & Wesson-with an action like your classic Smith & Wessons. Seriously.

Best, Jon

There's a reason I think of my PX4 D as my 18-shot K frame. ;)


That’s amazing! I think there must be a problem with my LTT though, because it will only shoot a 288.

The issue is excessive operator headspace. My guns have a worse case than yours, I don't think I've broken 280 yet (only tried a couple of time though).

[LSP552]

.......a SiG P-226, which is a gun I still love and what kept me out of Beretta for 25 years.

SIGs kept me from Berettas for a long time. Actually, Beretta kept me from Berettas for a long time because of the failure to promote G versions, lack of interchangeable night sights, and smaller platform options. No way could I live with the safety/decocker after all of my SIG time.

We really are living in the Golden Age. I bought my first Beretta last year as a moving to RI/2nd retirement present to myself. It’s a Wilson 92BT and my best friend was with me when I bought it. I’ve always been amaized that I shoot it better right out of the box than the 226s. After a LTT TJIB, it’s an amazing machine.

Looking for a smaller option, I debated over a PX4CC or a 92C and decided (wrongly I think) on the 92C. I think that decision is the ONLY thing that has kept me from completely switching to the Beretta system. I look at the 92C next to a 228 or even the 226 and it’s a “WTF” were they thinking calling this a Compact.

And then I range time them and shoot the Berettas (including the C) measurably better.

For me, the LTT TJIB is such an amaizing deal! Combined with the new G factory conversion lever, any 92 can become pretty much the prefect service size pistol. The only thing really lacking now is front sight dovetails on all the 92s other than the M9.

I’m pondering my next Beretta, and there will be another. Likely it’s a PX4CC to fill the role of smaller, lighter.

One thing I have discovered is that the SIG and Beretta decockers are not mutually exclusive. I can work the 239 as a complement to the bigger Berettas without any problem.

[GardoneVT]

It cracks me up...all this Beretta love. Wasn't too many years ago, it was being panned as a dog...Locking blocks, unreliable magazines, heavy DA trigger, too big, trigger reach too long, slide-mounted decocker, wouldn't work in sand environments...on and on.


A lot of the 92s detractors are vets who got issued garbage pistols after 2001 . Thanks to the DoDs low bidder maintenance contracts , issued Berettas tend to be worn out frankenguns. One SF guys M9 I handled was so worn out you could tilt the locked back pistol into battery without touching the slide lock. He couldn’t believe my POW 92FS handled as good as it did.

He’d probably say the 92 was crap too if the only ones he used were abused military examples.

[HCountyGuy]

I’ve played around with some Beretta F models in the LGS. I would have to get a G model because I cannot for the life of me reliably manipulate the safety on draw/presentation. I do want a 92A1 to screw around with nevertheless.

Living near Ft Benning most of my life I only ever heard negative about the 92FS. I reckon that’s because of the over-abused status of the military-issued ones.

I wish HK would get someone to start pimping out P30 models. But maybe I don’t really need that to happen.

[Redhat]

A lot of the 92s detractors are vets who got issued garbage pistols after 2001 . Thanks to the DoDs low bidder maintenance contracts , issued Berettas tend to be worn out frankenguns. One SF guys M9 I handled was so worn out you could tilt the locked back pistol into battery without touching the slide lock. He couldn’t believe my POW 92FS handled as good as it did.

He’d probably say the 92 was crap too if the only ones he used were abused military examples.

I carried, taught and deployed a couple times with the M9 over a period of about 20 years and I honesty never saw anything like what you just said.

[Dagga Boy]

SIGs kept me from Berettas for a long time. Actually, Beretta kept me from Berettas for a long time because of the failure to promote G versions, lack of interchangeable night sights, and smaller platform options. No way could I live with the safety/decocker after all of my SIG time.

We really are living in the Golden Age. I bought my first Beretta last year as a moving to RI/2nd retirement present to myself. It’s a Wilson 92BT and my best friend was with me when I bought it. I’ve always been amaized that I shoot it better right out of the box than the 226s. After a LTT TJIB, it’s an amazing machine.

Looking for a smaller option, I debated over a PX4CC or a 92C and decided (wrongly I think) on the 92C. I think that decision is the ONLY thing that has kept me from completely switching to the Beretta system. I look at the 92C next to a 228 or even the 226 and it’s a “WTF” were they thinking calling this a Compact.

And then I range time them and shoot the Berettas (including the C) measurably better.

For me, the LTT TJIB is such an amaizing deal! Combined with the new G factory conversion lever, any 92 can become pretty much the prefect service size pistol. The only thing really lacking now is front sight dovetails on all the 92s other than the M9.

I’m pondering my next Beretta, and there will be another. Likely it’s a PX4CC to fill the role of smaller, lighter.

One thing I have discovered is that the SIG and Beretta decockers are not mutually exclusive. I can work the 239 as a complement to the bigger Berettas without any problem.


Sort of came to the same place. The 92 “compact” is the 92 “Fanny Pack, AIWB, ban state” model. The PX4CC is the real compact model. I think for a bunch of us older guys who carried and taught the DA/SA Guns a couple decades ago and then have come back to them, they are an easy adjustment of applying new pure shooting techniques to our older ingrained handling protocols.

[beenalongtime]

He’d probably say the 92 was crap too if the only ones he used were abused military examples.

This is the majority of the anti-Beretta people I know/have dealt with.

[TOTS]

I carried, taught and deployed a couple times with the M9 over a period of about 20 years and I honesty never saw anything like what you just said.

I have! After having to struggle through annual qualifications with the armory’s stock weapons since 2002, the last thing I was going to do was drop my money on one. Now I’m willing to have an open mind. And after actually learning a DA trigger (although ala SIG) I can now actually get the crappy issued weapons to finally shoot well!

[Redhat]

I have! After having to struggle through annual qualifications with the armory’s stock weapons since 2002, the last thing I was going to do was drop my money on one. Now I’m willing to have an open mind. And after actually learning a DA trigger (although ala SIG) I can now actually get the crappy issued weapons to finally shoot well!

Army?

[TOTS]

Army?

USMC. M-4 and M-9. Admittedly never shot another 92 variant so...

[Redhat]

USMC. M-4 and M-9. Admittedly never shot another 92 variant so...

Okay so you're telling me you've seen the USMC issue malfunctioning (broken) weapons to go into combat or for armed duties?

[DocGKR]

I went through Police Academy with a 92F--one of the most reliable pistols I ever owned. However, these days they are a no go for me--how do you mount a red dot on a 92? Even the PX4 seems more challenging to get a RDS in place....

[Dagga Boy]

During my short time working with the military, what I saw with the Berettas is n the field was a self inflicted level of stupid. Guns carried for days in the field in sugar sand with no magazines in them. Constant loading and unloading going in and out of various buildings while full of same sugar sand. Zip for field maintenance is bad conditions. Massive difference from large agencies who issued the 92.

[PGT]

I have between 20 and 30 examples of the 92. I'm a fan of the platform, even if I'm more accurate with my CZ's.

[beenalongtime]

I went through Police Academy with a 92F--one of the most reliable pistols I ever owned. However, these days they are a no go for me--how do you mount a red dot on a 92? Even the PX4 seems more challenging to get a RDS in place....


Generally, you would use sight-mount. I do wish they had some other options, like longer mounts with raised rear sight/comount options.

[TOTS]

Okay so you're telling me you've seen the USMC issue malfunctioning (broken) weapons to go into combat or for armed duties?

Absolutely not. In fact I can’t remember ever not having one (M9) not going bang when I pulled the trigger. My experience has me seeing the M9 as a very reliable platform. His comments just made me remember all the two-toned guns that had all their finish won off by handling and if shaken could probably get a screw or pin to fall out. The LCpl armorers would issue the same 25 guns for qualifying so those would get literally thousands of rounds through them a day while others sat soaking in CLP in the racks. Seemed hard AF to get a good score on quals so we blamed the guns. Who knew it just takes alot of practice to shoot (especially DA) well? I never got the same one twice for any two deployments either!



During my short time working with the military, what I saw with the Berettas is n the field was a self inflicted level of stupid. Guns carried for days in the field in sugar sand with no magazines in them. Constant loading and unloading going in and out of various buildings while full of same sugar sand. Zip for field maintenance is bad conditions. Massive difference from large agencies who issued the 92.

This is a perfect description of weapons handling is in the majority of the military. At least 3 times every day going into eating facilities; unload/ show clear, dry fire into the barrel, eat, come out and reinsert mags until the next time you go inside! Clean the M4 and try not to lose my pistol.

[Nephrology]

This is perhaps somewhat tangential - thought germane to the topic of this thread -but I think the explosion of high quality single stack 9mm CCW pistols is another sign that we are in a golden era for personal protection handguns.

Even in my comparatively short amount of time as a gun owner (10 years), I witnessed single stack 9mm options evolving from the limited offerings of hit or miss quality from Kel-Tec & Kahr to the highly reliable single stack pistols from S&W, Glock, Springfield, Walther. I would add SIG Sauer to the list, but, I did say highly reliable...

[kjr_29]

During my short time working with the military, what I saw with the Berettas is n the field was a self inflicted level of stupid. Guns carried for days in the field in sugar sand with no magazines in them. Constant loading and unloading going in and out of various buildings while full of same sugar sand. Zip for field maintenance is bad conditions. Massive difference from large agencies who issued the 92.

That mirrors my experience. 21yrs active duty, 22 months combat time in various oconus sand boxes, never had one not work. We just put much more emphasis on the rifle care/maintenance. If older retired from mil service me could transfer today’s knowledge to younger me, it would have been different in my units.


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[OlongJohnson]

Third-gen Smiths were there all along, until they weren't. IMO, the Shield isn't close to replacing the 39XX single stacks.

[DocGKR]

Generally, you would use sight-mount.

That is a no go for defensive or duty use, as the sight-mount does not allow for a BIS.


Third-gen Smiths were there all along, until they weren't. IMO, the Shield isn't close to replacing the 39XX single stacks.

Yup....those single stack S&W's in the 39xx range where the best off-duty pistols I ever used.

[Nephrology]

Third-gen Smiths were there all along, until they weren't. IMO, the Shield isn't close to replacing the 39XX single stacks.

There is also the SIG P239, but my understanding is that the 39xx and P239 series pistols are thicker and heavier than the current crop of single stack 9mm pistols.

[HCM]

There is also the SIG P239, but my understanding is that the 39xx and P239 series pistols are thicker and heavier than the current crop of single stack 9mm pistols.

The issue with both is they and their magazines are out of production.

[ranger]

Third-gen Smiths were there all along, until they weren't. IMO, the Shield isn't close to replacing the 39XX single stacks.

About 10 years ago -I ran across a very clean 3913 "Ladysmith" when no one wanted Gen 3 S&W. Got it cheap and put it in the safe for my wife. I pick up mags for it as I run across them.

[Nephrology]

The issue with both is they and their magazines are out of production.

Yeah, I was mostly thinking historically speaking. For an NPE/ultra low profile carry pistol, the only real options I was able to find circa 2010 were the J frame, Kahr, and Kel-Tec (the latter not really being an option). Ended up with a 442, which I still have.

[OlongJohnson]

There is also the SIG P239, but my understanding is that the 39xx and P239 series pistols are thicker and heavier than the current crop of single stack 9mm pistols.

The P239/P225 never really worked for me, but the 39XX is Goldilocks' choice. More shootable than a pocket gun, slimmer and more concealable than other single stacks or compacts based on standard service pistols. I wouldn't call it a NPE/ultra low profile carry pistol, but it's kinda like a lightweight officer 1911, just smaller overall and, in particular, slimmer, because it's shrunk around the 9mm cartridge, and with a DAO or TDA action.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/sw-3953/

The Sig is basically a short-slide version of a chunky service pistol designed to handle .40, but with a single stack grip. And the same issue where the side decocker makes the classic Sigs wider in the grips still applies to the single stacks.

[Trooper224]

During my short time working with the military, what I saw with the Berettas is n the field was a self inflicted level of stupid. Guns carried for days in the field in sugar sand with no magazines in them. Constant loading and unloading going in and out of various buildings while full of same sugar sand. Zip for field maintenance is bad conditions. Massive difference from large agencies who issued the 92.


My oldest son spent his hitch in the Navy as a Master at Arms (Military Police). His two duty stations were Suda Bay, on the Isle of Crete and the USS Carl Vinson (CVN). These were his observations: at Suda Bay he was part of a dedicated MA unit that served as the base police force. Weapons were well maintained and everyone new their business, at least on a basic level. He couldn't recall every having or seeing a problem with any small arm. On the Carl Vinson, he was one of the few rated MA's on the ships security force. The ship was in drydock at the time and the SF was an ad hoc affair. No one cared about maintenance or did it and he encountered the opposite of Suda Bay: nothing but problems with every type of small arm. This was in a shipboard environment where weapons are hardly subjected to anything harsh. My oldest son is decidedly not a gun guy, yet even he recognized how screwed up it was.

[Mark D]

The P239/P225 never really worked for me, but the 39XX is Goldilocks' choice. More shootable than a pocket gun, slimmer and more concealable than other single stacks or compacts based on standard service pistols. I wouldn't call it a NPE/ultra low profile carry pistol, but it's kinda like a lightweight officer 1911, just smaller overall and, in particular, slimmer, because it's shrunk around the 9mm cartridge, and with a DAO or TDA action.

I must be the only guy who doesn't like the 3913. I picked up a very clean Lady Smith 3913 a couple years ago, mainly based on the interweb love it receives. I hated it: high bore access, heavy and chunky for a single stack, poor sights, and crappy aftermarket support. Mine shot very low too, regardless of ammo. I even sent it back to S&W and they replaced the barrel (grudgingly), but it continued to shoot low. I sold it at a loss.


On the other hand I love my Shield. It shoots like a much bigger pistoil. I just wish mine had a useable thumb safety.

[Mark D]

I went through Police Academy with a 92F--one of the most reliable pistols I ever owned. However, these days they are a no go for me--how do you mount a red dot on a 92? Even the PX4 seems more challenging to get a RDS in place....

You may know this already, but Ernest is running a RDS on one of his PX4's. A test, I believe.

Edit: Please disregard, Doc. I think EL's does not have BUIS. I should have finished reading the thread before responding.

[LSP552]

I must be the only guy who doesn't like the 3913. I picked up a very clean Lady Smith 3913 a couple years ago, mainly based on the interweb love it receives. I hated it: high bore access, heavy and chunky for a single stack, poor sights, and crappy aftermarket support. Mine shot very low too, regardless of ammo. I even sent it back to S&W and they replaced the barrel (grudgingly), but it continued to shoot low. I sold it at a loss.


On the other hand I love my Shield. It shoots like a much bigger pistoil. I just wish mine had a useable thumb safety.

Nope, add me to the list. Much preferred the old SIG 225 and the later 239 in 9mm to any single stack S&W.

[arcfide]

That is a no go for defensive or duty use, as the sight-mount does not allow for a BIS.

I thought the sight mounts were designed to be a BIS as well as a mount?

[MGW]

My only issue with Berettas over Sigs is I don’t like where the Beretta trigger breaks. But as a total package I think Beretta is better. A 92 variant and a PX4cc would be a really great TDA combo. For pure shooting I shoot a 226 better than just about anything else out there. It’s just not my favorite pistol to carry and unfortunately Sig doesn’t offer anything in the same class as a Compact Carry.

[DocGKR]

Dovetail mounts generally set the RDS too high and typically preclude readily adjustable and usable BIS...

A few years ago, Beretta brought me over to their fantastic factory in Italy and we had a day long discussion regarding terminal ballistics and weapon trends--seems they did not fully pay attention to what was stated...

[HCountyGuy]

My only issue with Berettas over Sigs is I don’t like where the Beretta trigger breaks. But as a total package I think Beretta is better. A 92 variant and a PX4cc would be a really great TDA combo. For pure shooting I shoot a 226 better than just about anything else out there. It’s just not my favorite pistol to carry and unfortunately Sig doesn’t offer anything in the same class as a Compact Carry.

The closest Sig has is the P229c: a P229 grip with P224 slide.

30067

The only thing about it is they mostly made it in .40S&W and .357 Sig. 9mm models were a bit more rare last I knew.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

The closest Sig has is the P229c: a P229 grip with P224 slide.

30067

The only thing about it is they mostly made it in .40S&W and .357 Sig. 9mm models were a bit more rare last I knew.

I’d buy that gun right there in 9mm. That looks great.


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[LSP552]

My only issue with Berettas over Sigs is I don’t like where the Beretta trigger breaks. But as a total package I think Beretta is better. A 92 variant and a PX4cc would be a really great TDA combo. For pure shooting I shoot a 226 better than just about anything else out there. It’s just not my favorite pistol to carry and unfortunately Sig doesn’t offer anything in the same class as a Compact Carry.

I’ve put enough rounds and time on my Wilson 92BT and a 92C to realize I don’t shoot them as well as I do my 226/239 combo. The trigger breaking point is one reason. The 226 is the gun I shoot best across the board with speed and accuracy. My Wilson BT has a LTT TJIB and my 226 has a GrayGun duty tune, so I think it’s a pretty fair comparison. The 92s are in the safe now for good except as playthings.

I’ve tried to love the 228 but I get jump thumb (like Glock knuckle but different) when pushing speed from the holster. This is why in days past I preferred the 225 over the 228, despite the size and capacity issues. It’s why I now prefer the 239 over the 228 or 229.

I spent some of last week working with the 228 again. I’m going to order a set of factory grips and sand that F-ing hump off to make it more 226ish and give that a try.

[MGW]

LSP552 which version of the 228 do you have?

I absolutely loved my 229. I wasn’t as good of a shooter when I owned it though and talked myself into believing that I could shoot something else better. I generally like classic series Sigs better than anything else including nice 1911’s. I really don’t know why I keep talking myself out of going back to them full time.

[LSP552]

LSP552 which version of the 228 do you have?

I absolutely loved my 229. I wasn’t as good of a shooter when I owned it though and talked myself into believing that I could shoot something else better. I generally like classic series Sigs better than anything else including nice 1911’s. I really don’t know why I keep talking myself out of going back to them full time.

LSP issued P220s and P228s for a long time, Trooper’s choice. Most of the time I carried a personal 226, went 220 for a couple of years but went back to 226 just because I shot it much better than the .45. Did the Glock thing for years then went back to the 226 and retired with a Bruce Gray tweaked 226R in my holster.

My last issues LSP pistol was a 228 born in 2000. I was able to purchase it when I retired in 2008. I can’t stand the extra large hump compared to the 226. I need to try sanding that down a bit see how it works.

I’m right there beside you with the SIG thing. I need to quite chasing rabbits....

[Bucky]

I feel like the B92 isn’t the only platform experiencing this level of growth- look at the CZ75, which when I first started following Pistol-Training about a decade ago was generally derided. Now CZs are quite popular in the competitive shooting world, with shops like Cajun Gun Works offering quite a few upgrades. It has evolved from a duty gun/east bloc curiosity to quite the popular platform.

Surprised the CZ didn’t get mentioned until post 17.

I’m a huge fan of the Beretta 92, but I see the CZ as more of the DA/SA equivalent of our time. The variations, and possibilities are much greater than what you can do to a 92, IMHO.

[LSP552]

Surprised the CZ didn’t get mentioned until post 17.

I’m a huge fan of the Beretta 92, but I see the CZ as more of the DA/SA equivalent of our time. The variations, and possibilities are much greater than what you can do to a 92, IMHO.

Careful or you will make that the next rabbit hole I go down.....

[OlongJohnson]

I’m going to order a set of factory grips and sand that F-ing hump off to make it more 226ish and give that a try.

If you mean the excessive general curvature of the "back strap," these might be worth looking into:

31655 (https://www.hogueinc.com/sig-sauer-p228-p229-checkered-g10-black)

Hogue G10 checkered are my favorite grips for any classic Sig I've tried them on. More comments here. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33500-Sig-M11-A1-Compact-vs-M11-A1-ARMY-Compact&p=802546&viewfull=1#post802546)


Interesting to see you hanging up the Berettas. Last I remember, unless I'm confused by the tiredness at this hour, you were very enthusiastic about them.

[Sensei]

I’ve put enough rounds and time on my Wilson 92BT and a 92C to realize I don’t shoot them as well as I do my 226/239 combo. The trigger breaking point is one reason. The 226 is the gun I shoot best across the board with speed and accuracy. My Wilson BT has a LTT TJIB and my 226 has a GrayGun duty tune, so I think it’s a pretty fair comparison. The 92s are in the safe now for good except as playthings.

I’ve tried to love the 228 but I get jump thumb (like Glock knuckle but different) when pushing speed from the holster. This is why in days past I preferred the 225 over the 228, despite the size and capacity issues. It’s why I now prefer the 239 over the 228 or 229.

I spent some of last week working with the 228 again. I’m going to order a set of factory grips and sand that F-ing hump off to make it more 226ish and give that a try.

The SAO trigger on my P226 Legion is comparable to anything on my 9mm Wilson CQB Elite or Colt Combat Unit. Despite the criticism of Sig as of late, that P226 is far more reliable than either of those 2 guns.

I’d swore off new handguns last year, but the soon to be released SAO P229 Legion has the potential to be amazing.

[LSP552]

If you mean the excessive general curvature of the "back strap," these might be worth looking into:

31655 (https://www.hogueinc.com/sig-sauer-p228-p229-checkered-g10-black)

Hogue G10 checkered are my favorite grips for any classic Sig I've tried them on. More comments here. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33500-Sig-M11-A1-Compact-vs-M11-A1-ARMY-Compact&p=802546&viewfull=1#post802546)


Interesting to see you hanging up the Berettas. Last I remember, unless I'm confused by the tiredness at this hour, you were very enthusiastic about them.

I love the Hogue G10s on my 226 for sure. The 229 has a much larger hump on the left grip panel under the slide lock lever than the 226. That’s the area I don’t care for and need to reduce. Do you know if the 229 G10s are smaller in this area?

Yes, I was really enjoying the Berettas but results over time have pushed me back into the SIG world.

[LSP552]

The SAO trigger on my P226 Legion is comparable to anything on my 9mm Wilson CQB Elite or Colt Combat Unit. Despite the criticism of Sig as of late, that P226 is far more reliable than either of those 2 guns.

I’d swore off new handguns last year, but the soon to be released SAO P229 Legion has the potential to be amazing.

I handled a Legion 226 SAO and it was pretty amaizing! The only reason I don’t own one is lack of a smaller SAO option. If the 229 SAO is as well designed as the 226, I will own both.

I’ve been contemplating the Wilson CQB (.45 if I do) and the EDC X9 but was holding off to see the 229 SAO. I think I remember you have a EDC X9?

[ccmdfd]

Is the 229SAO out in the wild yet?

cc

[John Hearne]

I think what we're seeing is the tension between inexpensive, mass-produced pistols and more expensive, refined offerings. Most shooters don't shoot any better with a stock trigger than an LTT offering. It makes no sense for manufacturers to build in a level of performance that the average buyer can't extract.

What you're left with is a platform with a huge potential that can be exploited by a knowledgeable person. Whether it's a Beretta, Glock, or Sig, the judicious application of a few upgraded components can really improve the shooting/carrying characteristics of the piece. I took HG2 at Thunder Ranch with a Teddy Jacobson tuned P220ST. Half the class was DOE guys who carried P220s every day. None of them believed that my pistol was a P220 - it was simply too easy to shoot.

I really wish the manufacturers would just offer two grades of pistols - a basic model that had less expensive components and an upgraded version for shooters. The upgraded models could have better components as well such as tool steel parts instead of MIM if the original design didn't include MIM.

Finally, I've handled the LTT guns and they are AMAZING. There is only one explanation for how they can be so smooth/light and still set of primers reliably - magic.

[GyroF-16]

I really wish the manufacturers would just offer two grades of pistols - a basic model that had less expensive components and an upgraded version for shooters. The upgraded models could have better components as well such as tool steel parts instead of MIM if the original design didn't include MIM.


I think Beretta is doing exactly that with the basic 92FS and the 92 LTT Elite.
I sincerely hope that it pays off for them and it continues - Maybe even to be emulated by other major players in the market.

[sharps54]

I think Beretta is doing exactly that with the basic 92FS and the 92 LTT Elite.
I sincerely hope that it pays off for them and it continues - Maybe even to be emulated by other major players in the market.

Other examples would be Kahr Arms with the C and P series pistols and S&W with the Performance Center models of certain handguns.

[HCountyGuy]

Other examples would be Kahr Arms with the C and P series pistols and S&W with the Performance Center models of certain handguns.

Don’t forget the Legion series from Sig Sauer.

[Nephrology]

The SAO trigger on my P226 Legion is comparable to anything on my 9mm Wilson CQB Elite or Colt Combat Unit. Despite the criticism of Sig as of late, that P226 is far more reliable than either of those 2 guns.

I’d swore off new handguns last year, but the soon to be released SAO P229 Legion has the potential to be amazing.

Do you ever have issues with the slide lock being so close to the thumb safety? I have never shot one, but in looking at them online I've always thought that was a big potential weakness to the SAO Sigs.

[MGW]

I handled a Legion 226 SAO and it was pretty amaizing! The only reason I don’t own one is lack of a smaller SAO option. If the 229 SAO is as well designed as the 226, I will own both.

I’ve been contemplating the Wilson CQB (.45 if I do) and the EDC X9 but was holding off to see the 229 SAO. I think I remember you have a EDC X9?


A friend of mine owned an SAO Legion for awhile the same time I owned a standard 226 Legion. I actually preferred the TDA gun. For me, the safety on the SAO is in a bad spot. Really messes up reaching for the slide lock. The SA on the TDA gun was better too. Less pre-travel and it didn't break as cleanly. Could have just been the difference in round counts between the two though as the SAO didn't have many rounds through it.

I'm slowly circling the Sig rabbit hole again.

[Bucky]

I really wish the manufacturers would just offer two grades of pistols - a basic model that had less expensive components and an upgraded version for shooters. The upgraded models could have better components as well such as tool steel parts instead of MIM if the original design didn't include MIM.

Finally, I've handled the LTT guns and they are AMAZING. There is only one explanation for how they can be so smooth/light and still set of primers reliably - magic.

This seems to be more prevalent in the metal framed guns, than the polymers. You already mentioned Beretta, but Sig offers some enhanced versions of their classic P2## series guns, and CZ has quite the range from basic 75 to ready to compete out of the box (my Shadow 2 is virtually stock).

[OlongJohnson]

Sig offers some enhanced versions of their classic P2## series guns...

Unfortunately, that's mostly a lot of additional featurism. Little about them addresses fundamental quality and durability in the way I understood Mr. Hearne's comments to mean. In fact, almost the opposite. The "special" color on the Legions is/was known for chipping and discoloring. The scatter on results due to manufacturing inconsistency means that a pistol in the bottom half of the Legions may come out of the box less sweet than a pistol in the top half of non-Legions. I've finger-banged plenty of Legions that don't come close to a standard model with a basic action cleanup and smoothing.

If you like the colors, the sights, the grips, that's great. But real trigger work by a careful human (rather than the automated process used for the Legion parts) will almost certainly get a better result. You might not prefer the sights. Essentially equivalent grips are available in the aftermarket.

What I'd like to see is a takedown pin machined from chromoly bar stock, lockup geometry and fits dialed in perfectly, properly deburred slide, really consistent surface finish on the slide rails, etc. One that I could take out of the box and inspect, lubricate it as I reassembled it and consider it ready to shoot.

[TCFD273]

I handled a Legion 226 SAO and it was pretty amaizing! The only reason I don’t own one is lack of a smaller SAO option. If the 229 SAO is as well designed as the 226, I will own both.

I’ve been contemplating the Wilson CQB (.45 if I do) and the EDC X9 but was holding off to see the 229 SAO. I think I remember you have a EDC X9?

I have a Several WC’s in 45 and 9mm, 226 Legion and had an X9.

I have to disagree that the trigger on the SAO is as good as any of my WC’s. I prefer the ergonomics of a 1911 over the 226, and the X9 didn’t do anything a G19 can’t do.

There’s only a couple of reasons to carry a 1911. They are easy (for me) to conceal, they are excellent shooters, and most important bc they are cool.

As far as reliability goes, never had an issue with the X9, 226 has about 6k with zero issues, and I have 10’s of thousands of rounds down 1911’s chambered in 45 (mainly WC, Springfield Pro, and 2 1911’s I built). Never had an issue that couldn’t be traced back to out of spec ammo.


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[Bucky]

Unfortunately, that's mostly a lot of additional featurism. Little about them addresses fundamental quality and durability in the way I understood Mr. Hearne's comments to mean. In fact, almost the opposite. The "special" color on the Legions is/was known for chipping and discoloring. The scatter on results due to manufacturing inconsistency means that a pistol in the bottom half of the Legions may come out of the box less sweet than a pistol in the top half of non-Legions. I've finger-banged plenty of Legions that don't come close to a standard model with a basic action cleanup and smoothing.

If you like the colors, the sights, the grips, that's great. But real trigger work by a careful human (rather than the automated process used for the Legion parts) will almost certainly get a better result. You might not prefer the sights. Essentially equivalent grips are available in the aftermarket.

What I'd like to see is a takedown pin machined from chromoly bar stock, lockup geometry and fits dialed in perfectly, properly deburred slide, really consistent surface finish on the slide rails, etc. One that I could take out of the box and inspect, lubricate it as I reassembled it and consider it ready to shoot.


OK, admittedly that was the weakest of my three examples. :eek:

[John Hearne]

To clarify, the Legion was the idea I was speaking about but not the execution. The only non-standard part in the Legion was the Gray Guns trigger. None of the internals were upgraded or improved. Had every Legion that left the line had its internals polished and only included tool steel parts, then that would be more of what I'm talking about.

Part of the problem with Sig is that metal framed pictures don't have any real profit margins. Sig's upgrades to the stock the 320 lines - the X series - is meaningful but not as far as they could go.

[Sensei]

I have a Several WC’s in 45 and 9mm, 226 Legion and had an X9.

I have to disagree that the trigger on the SAO is as good as any of my WC’s. I prefer the ergonomics of a 1911 over the 226, and the X9 didn’t do anything a G19 can’t do.

There’s only a couple of reasons to carry a 1911. They are easy (for me) to conceal, they are excellent shooters, and most important bc they are cool.

As far as reliability goes, never had an issue with the X9, 226 has about 6k with zero issues, and I have 10’s of thousands of rounds down 1911’s chambered in 45 (mainly WC, Springfield Pro, and 2 1911’s I built). Never had an issue that couldn’t be traced back to out of spec ammo.


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Like you, I have close to $30K in semi custom 1911s. Most are 45; a few are 9mm. All of my 9mm 1911 except for my EDC X9 have been unreliable out of the box with factory JHP and the flat nosed 147 Federal AE. This includes a CCU that spent 6 months at Colt and another 6 months at Wilson before it would reliably cycle Federal HST - but only with Tripp mags. My 9mm CQB Elite that arrived last week was just sent back today for recurrent FTFs and a slide stop lever that likes to stick and creep up into its notch during firing. All of this has been documented in pictures over the past year if you search my screen name and gun model.

Contrast this with my Legions (yes, I have several) that cost 1/3 of my semi custom 1911s. The trigger pre-travel, weight, and reset on my SAO P226 Legion is identical to my CQB Elite and CCU that has a Wilson action tuned trigger. Ditto for my SAO P220. My performance on the fast drill, dot torture, and just about every other drill is also identical. The only difference is the cost and that the P226 cycles EVERY JHP and FMJ load that I’ve thrown at it.

So, to anyone thinking of jumping into the 9mm 1911 game, I not going to suggest that you don’t, but search my name and a gun model...feel my pain...learn from it.

[Sensei]

Do you ever have issues with the slide lock being so close to the thumb safety? I have never shot one, but in looking at them online I've always thought that was a big potential weakness to the SAO Sigs.

No, that issue is not a problem. In all my years of shooting Sigs, I’ve had 2 issues with the placement of their slide stops. The most common problem that I and many others have is a tendency to ride it with the shooting thumb on SA/DA guns causing a failure to lock back on an empty mag. This is mitigated by medially displacing the dominant thumb so that is clears the lever like this:

31684

This is the technique taught by Bruce Gray. On the other hand, the SAO Legion’s safety provides a natural bridge to rest the thumb so that it easily clears the slide stop without having to consciously deviate it like so:

31685

The second issue that I sometimes have is the relatively posterior position of the slide stop compared to many other SA pistols. Thus, I sometimes find myself “searching” for it with my support thumb when trying to release it after reload. This happens a lot after long periods of shooting my Berettas or 1911s.

[TCFD273]

Like you, I have close to $30K in semi custom 1911s. Most are 45; a few are 9mm. All of my 9mm 1911 except for my EDC X9 have been unreliable out of the box with factory JHP and the flat nosed 147 Federal AE. This includes a CCU that spent 6 months at Colt and another 6 months at Wilson before it would reliably cycle Federal HST - but only with Tripp mags. My 9mm CQB Elite that arrived last week was just sent back today for recurrent FTFs and a slide stop lever that likes to stick and creep up into its notch during firing. All of this has been documented in pictures over the past year if you search my screen name and gun model.

Contrast this with my Legions (yes, I have several) that cost 1/3 of my semi custom 1911s. The trigger pre-travel, weight, and reset on my SAO P226 Legion is identical to my CQB Elite and CCU that has a Wilson action tuned trigger. Ditto for my SAO P220. My performance on the fast drill, dot torture, and just about every other drill is also identical. The only difference is the cost and that the P226 cycles EVERY JHP and FMJ load that I’ve thrown at it.

So, to anyone thinking of jumping into the 9mm 1911 game, I not going to suggest that you don’t, but search my name and a gun model...feel my pain...learn from it.

Until yesterday, the only 9mm 1911 I currently own is a Wilson Pinnacle. I’ve owned 5, including the X9, all but the Pinnacle and X9 needed some tweaking. I would put the Pinnacle up there with any gun I own as far as reliability. The others ran fine after I adjusted the extractor tension and quit purchasing WWB lol. It is heartbreaking when your 3k plus pistol doesn’t run 100% out of the box. All my 45’s run like sewing machines though.

I purchased a 9mm ULC Commander yesterday, haven’t picked it up yet, but from what I’ve been told by those in the “know”, it should run really well. I have my fingers crossed.

I had 2 Legions, sold one, the other one is my wife’s range gun. I really wanted to like it, but I can run circles around it with a Glock and 1911’s.

I shoot Glocks the best, but as I’ve stated here many times, I have an irrational love affair with 1911’s.



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[TCFD273]

Like you, I have close to $30K in semi custom 1911s. Most are 45; a few are 9mm. All of my 9mm 1911 except for my EDC X9 have been unreliable out of the box with factory JHP and the flat nosed 147 Federal AE. This includes a CCU that spent 6 months at Colt and another 6 months at Wilson before it would reliably cycle Federal HST - but only with Tripp mags. My 9mm CQB Elite that arrived last week was just sent back today for recurrent FTFs and a slide stop lever that likes to stick and creep up into its notch during firing. All of this has been documented in pictures over the past year if you search my screen name and gun model.

Contrast this with my Legions (yes, I have several) that cost 1/3 of my semi custom 1911s. The trigger pre-travel, weight, and reset on my SAO P226 Legion is identical to my CQB Elite and CCU that has a Wilson action tuned trigger. Ditto for my SAO P220. My performance on the fast drill, dot torture, and just about every other drill is also identical. The only difference is the cost and that the P226 cycles EVERY JHP and FMJ load that I’ve thrown at it.

So, to anyone thinking of jumping into the 9mm 1911 game, I not going to suggest that you don’t, but search my name and a gun model...feel my pain...learn from it.

Also....it always bothered me that if you depress the trigger on the Legion then try to drop the safety...the trigger is dead.

Never had an issue with forgetting the safety, but sh*t happens and I have no clue why Sig designed it that way.


I was at Bill Wilson’s ranch a year ago and there where at least a dozen 9mm 1911’s. Not a single hiccup with about 7k rounds down range. I ran a 45, but made me a little jealous. Haha

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[Bergeron]

Also....it always bothered me that if you depress the trigger on the Legion then try to drop the safety...the trigger is dead.

Never had an issue with forgetting the safety, but sh*t happens and I have no clue why Sig designed it that way.


That’s an odd design choice. I prefer thumb safety pistols, and I’ve been anticipating the P229 SAO, but this is disappointing.

[OlongJohnson]

Also....it always bothered me that if you depress the trigger on the Legion then try to drop the safety...the trigger is dead.

Is that just Legions, or all the classic Sig SAOs?

[TCFD273]

Is that just Legions, or all the classic Sig SAOs?

My only experience with Sig SAO’s are the Legion series.


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[OlongJohnson]

Also....it always bothered me that if you depress the trigger on the Legion then try to drop the safety...the trigger is dead.

Never had an issue with forgetting the safety, but sh*t happens and I have no clue why Sig designed it that way.


Did some checking. That is NOT normal operation for non-Legion SAO classic Sigs. Multiple samples.

Note that the safety can be activated with the hammer down. So if one assumes that safety on corresponds to a cocked hammer, it would be possible to press the trigger with the safety on, disengage the safety, and then have a dead trigger. But in that case, the hammer was never cocked in the first place.

Contributing to this perception might be the fact that classic Sig hammers "float" away from the firing pin. So there is always a little gap in front of the hammer when it is at rest.

Or, you might have found a model that was designed to operate differently, or was defective or broken. All seem to be possible with Sig.

[Sensei]

Also....it always bothered me that if you depress the trigger on the Legion then try to drop the safety...the trigger is dead.

Never had an issue with forgetting the safety, but sh*t happens and I have no clue why Sig designed it that way.


I was at Bill Wilson’s ranch a year ago and there where at least a dozen 9mm 1911’s. Not a single hiccup with about 7k rounds down range. I ran a 45, but made me a little jealous. Haha

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Could you be more specific about what you are describing. I have 2 SAO Legions and neither trigger has ever been rendered dead. I just got done playing with both copies and attempting to depress the trigger on a cocked pistol does nothing if the safety is on and certainly does not render it dead when the safety is deactivated. Moreover, I can find no discussion of such an issue on the web.

[TCFD273]

Could you be more specific about what you are describing. I have 2 SAO Legions and neither trigger has ever been rendered dead. I just got done playing with both copies and attempting to depress the trigger on a cocked pistol does nothing if the safety is on and certainly does not render it dead when the safety is deactivated. Moreover, I can find no discussion of such an issue on the web.

Hold the trigger to the rear, and attempt to depress the safety.

Both my examples (sold one) will not deactivate the safety while the trigger is pulled to the rear.

You have to let off the trigger, break the safety then press the trigger.

If I forcefully push the safety down while the trigger is pulled to the rear the trigger is dead.

After posting this, and there is a video on YouTube from several years ago demonstrating this issue, I googled it and it seems Sig has corrected the issue on more current models.


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[OlongJohnson]

I love the Hogue G10s on my 226 for sure. The 229 has a much larger hump on the left grip panel under the slide lock lever than the 226. That’s the area I don’t care for and need to reduce. Do you know if the 229 G10s are smaller in this area?

Yes, I was really enjoying the Berettas but results over time have pushed me back into the SIG world.

On my samples...

M11-A1, Sig-branded G10 grips with Piranha texture: 1.491 in. across the grip (left to right) in the bump area.

P226, Hogue-branded G10 grips with checkered texture: 1.412 in. across the grip (left to right) in the bump area.

So yeah, like 2mm. That can be a lot when it comes to fitting hands. Explains why the smaller pistol feels a little chunkier - it actually is. Also might be a factor in (A)IWB carry. Interesting to me that Hogue advertises the same grips to fit the P228 and the P229, without distinguishing between variants. Odd that the original P228, the compact pistol, should be wider than the P226.

I didn't measure thickness to see how much could be removed. I didn't swap the factory grips on and measure them because someone who cares more than I do can do that.

[Mjolnir]

I feel like the B92 isn’t the only platform experiencing this level of growth- look at the CZ75, which when I first started following Pistol-Training about a decade ago was generally derided. Now CZs are quite popular in the competitive shooting world, with shops like Cajun Gun Works offering quite a few upgrades. It has evolved from a duty gun/east bloc curiosity to quite the popular platform.

Yep.

When I think “Custom DA Pistol” I think... “CZ”.

I have dry fired a Wilson Combat Beretta 92 and was floored at the DA trigger pull.

It was LINEAR and could not ha e been over 7 lbs.

Best DA trigger pull I’ve ever pressed.


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[Tamara]

I have dry fired a Wilson Combat Beretta 92 and was floored at the DA trigger pull.

It was LINEAR and could not ha e been over 7 lbs.

Best DA trigger pull I’ve ever pressed.


My LTT Elite 92 weighs in at 7.75#. It's frickin' sick.

I would do bad, wrong things to get that kind of DA pull on my S&W wheelguns and still be able to reliably bust caps and not outrun the trigger return.

[John Hearne]

I would do bad, wrong things to get that kind of DA pull on my S&W wheelguns and still be able to reliably bust caps and not outrun the trigger return.

I'm convinced that Earnest has found some pool of unsullied virgins who he regularly sacrifices on his gun bench to get those trigger pulls that low while setting off primers. It's not of this Earth......

[Tamara]

I'm convinced that Earnest has found some pool of unsullied virgins who he regularly sacrifices on his gun bench to get those trigger pulls that low while setting off primers. It's not of this Earth......

The gnomes at Grayguns nearly have the puzzle unlocked, but Langdon Tactical is currently leading in the crazy-light-yet-useable DA pull arms race. It's close, though.

(The P225 I was playing with last month had a ~8lb DA pull, but had a skeletonized hammer that gave it the occasional hard time with a Russian primer. We're reaping the fruits of a TDA arms race here, though.)

[OlongJohnson]

I'm convinced that Earnest has found some pool of unsullied virgins who he regularly sacrifices on his gun bench to get those trigger pulls that low while setting off primers. It's not of this Earth......

Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[revchuck38]

I'm convinced that Earnest has found some pool of unsullied virgins who he regularly sacrifices on his gun bench to get those trigger pulls that low while setting off primers. It's not of this Earth......

Sorry, I just have a hard time believing a Marine would sacrifice virgins...

[awp_101]

Now that LTT has the DA trigger thing pretty well sorted, perhaps he can turn those otherworldly minions loose on working out a solid RDS mount for the 92s...

[Tamara]

Now that LTT has the DA trigger thing pretty well sorted, perhaps he can turn those otherworldly minions loose on working out a solid RDS mount for the 92s...

Is the operation of the firing pin safety going to make that tricky?

[awp_101]

Is the operation of the firing pin safety going to make that tricky?

Maybe? I'm just getting into the 92s so I haven't learned all their innards and idiosyncrasies yet but that could be why no one has done anything besides dovetail mounts AFAIK.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Now that LTT has the DA trigger thing pretty well sorted, perhaps he can turn those otherworldly minions loose on working out a solid RDS mount for the 92s...

He is working on it. He recently spoke on a P&S cast about finding someone to machine prototype slides, so he definitely has an idea of how to get it done.

That is going to be a serious process though unless fortune is really in his corner.

I know there would be a host of people lining up to buy LTT RDS slides for 92 pistols here at least.


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[OnionsAndDragons]

Maybe? I'm just getting into the 92s so I haven't learned all their innards and idiosyncrasies yet but that could be why no one has done anything besides dovetail mounts AFAIK.

That is the reason it isn't being done currently. It will involve some sort of serious workaround or total slide redesign.


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[Dorsai]

There isn't much room to the slide top behind the breechface. The extractor is pretty high, as is the roll pin for the firing pin block, and the block itself. If you were ok with mounting the RDS further forward, you could make a new slide that was not open from breechface to front sight and create an RDS mounting surface there.

[awp_101]

He is working on it. He recently spoke on a P&S cast about finding someone to machine prototype slides, so he definitely has an idea of how to get it done.

DOH! I listened to it Wednesday while getting stuff ready for Thanksgiving, I can't believe I forgot about that!:eek: