DA Trigger Pull Differences

[Doc_Glock]

I have been working with a Walther P99AS lately. I noticed that when doing a dry DA trigger pull one handed (doesn’t matter which hand), the sights jump just slightly to the side right as/after the trigger breaks. It can be challenging to control. I can control it but it takes a great deal of concentration and I do it best when I grab a ton of trigger and really sink my finger to the hilt.

My issue is: I don’t understand the cause of the little jump. The trigger gets gritty and stacks toward the end, but that is sort of typical. Weight around 8lbs. When it breaks, there is that tendency to jump. The jump is easily controlled two handed.

I dry fired a few other pistols and found the Beretta 92 variants also jump a bit in this manner. The longer, heavier Beretta is slightly easier to control, but the trigger does the same thing.

In contrast, I find the HK P30 and P2000 triggers trivial to keep on target one handed in DA. No jump whatsoever. Smooth stacking and then release.

All these pistols have about an 8 lb DA trigger.

I would really like to know why some pistols, are easier for me to control after the break. Perhaps it is over travel or grip or something else?

All these triggers can be trained with practice, but what makes the HKs such outstanding one handed performers for me on that DA pull?

Any ideas?

[pangloss]

Does the direction if the jump vary between left and right hands?

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[StraitR]

I always figured it was a combination of my poor trigger control, weaker SHO/WHO grip, and greater over-travel than I'm used to (Glock/1911). FWIW, I notice this on M&P's too, so I'm not sure it's only a DA thing, but can see how the added trigger weight exacerbates the jump if all the above were still true. I can take the same guns and eliminate the jump with a firm two hand grip to counter, so that's how I came to my conclusion. J frame is another good example of where I see this. Interested to see what others say.

[Doc_Glock]

Does the direction if the jump vary between left and right hands?

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Goes opposite. Right goes right left goes left.

[Doc_Glock]

After a little more experimenting tonight I think it is over travel that causes the jerk.

I can only crudely measure it, and wish I had one of those awesome trigger tester things that show a pressure distance curve, etc, BT alas....

The Walther is around 4mm over travel
B92 around 3-4mm
HK P30: 1-2mm. Ta Da!

It shows up more in DA due to the heavier trigger, which, when it releases allows the finger, and trigger components to accelerate a bit more before slamming into a stop on the frame and jerking the sights off. The HK simply has less distance for this acceleration to occur and less of a slamming stop.

All the pistols have about 1 mm over travel in SA.

This also maybe explains why I shoot a G43 so well one handed. Its over travel is half the Gen 4 19 I have on hand: 1-2mm vs 2-3mm respectively.

I have never really thought much about over travel before, but it must be a thing given that target match triggers are adjustable for it. I know next to nothing about bullseye though.

[CraigS]

To experiment start putting little pieces of tape on the back of the trigger.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1842/43582259794_8b84c841d3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29pdtsj)20180826_130525 (https://flic.kr/p/29pdtsj) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
This rubbery no slip tape works on one pistol but is too thick on another. Try different tapes and try multiple layers.

[MattyD380]

Interesting. I notice this too--the snap/impact of the hammer seems to jostle the pistol in my hand. Very hard for me to avoid--and I find it's slightly more prevalent on my Berettas than my Sigs. It's almost like the hammer hits harder on the Berettas, and knocks your sights off balance.

[JAD]

I had this issue with Glocks for years. The gen 4 fixes it for me on the 17 — it’s still an issue with the 19. As Tom givens puts it, some guns are too big for some peoples hands.

[GJM]

1) I just grabbed a P99AS, to see if I noticed this, and did not.

2) does it happen if you have a snap cap in?

3) do you notice a deflection in your POI when live firing?

4) if it is a non-issue shooting freestyle, there is something about your trigger press or grip that is happening one hand. Unlike freestyle shooting, one arm needs to both provide support and work the trigger.

[Clusterfrack]

GJMs points 3 and 4 are spot on. If the sights move a bit after the striker falls in dryfire, it may not affect the POI. However, this issue can be correlated with other problems in your trigger pull.

In other words, if you can keep the sights from moving in dryfire, that means your trigger pull is good. But, if you get some movement at the end of your pull, that doesn’t necessarily mean you have a problem.

In DA I like to imagine that the back of the trigger guard is HOT so I don’t touch it hard and get my finger off it quickly after the hammer falls.

[M2CattleCo]

It's over travel. You have an 8lb crash into a sub-2lb pistol. If it doesn't hit exactly straight it's gonna upset the sight picture. Over travel is one, if not the hardest thing to overcome in a trigger in my opinion. It's like trying to do a smooth biceps curl where the weight abruptly vanishes towards the top of the arc.

[JAH 3rd]

Trigger pull and sight alignment is a challenge since you are doing two things at once, thus the brain is receiving input from the eye and finger, so to speak.

Let me give this non-firearm example as a means to explain the concept. When I was 18, I worked at a jewelry store part-time in my senior year in high school. Occasionally when working with small parts I wore a loupe to magnify those small parts so I could better see what I was doing. You might think that my brain would be battling between which eye to focus with. I found that I would focus with the eye I was using the loupe on. My brain ignored the input from the other eye. I was totally focused with what I was seeing through the loupe.

So when I am shooting, I try to be focused on my sight picture, that my brain with will be focused only on what I see and not what my trigger finger is doing. A caveat to note is that a lousy trigger on a firearm pulls the brain from the sight picture focus to what the trigger finger is doing. That is one reason I like DA/SA triggers because usually a SA trigger requires less movement (pull) to disengage the SA release. So I guess what I am trying to say in way too many words is that a lousy trigger takes away concentration on the sight picture and contributes to unwanted handgun movement at the time of ignition.

[MGW]

Sounds like you need to sell everything except for your HK's :rolleyes: You have a TDA P2000? I keep coming back to this pistol as a possible hammer fired Glock alternative.

I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said already except to say I feel like SHO and WHO live fire really helps tighten up my freestyle shot groups. I even went so far as to purchase a pellet pistol so I could practice single hand stuff in my back yard. I'm not going to say I'm an expert at shooting groups now but it has helped a lot.

[JAH 3rd]

I have a HK P2000 9mm DA/SA pistol. Have around 900 rounds through it. The double action trigger pull could be lighter, but the SA pull has worn in quite nicely. Nicely enough where I can focus on my sight picture and am not distracted by what my trigger finger is doing. Now my HK USP 45 Elite has a great DA/SA trigger pull. The SA is truly sweet.

[Doc_Glock]

Sounds like you need to sell everything except for your HK's :rolleyes: You have a TDA P2000? I keep coming back to this pistol as a possible hammer fired Glock alternative.

The P99AS is a better shooter, and as close to a TDA Glock as one can get trigger wise. The HK probably is probably better quality, but that kind of goes without saying (fanboi).

[HCountyGuy]

I used to notice the same “jump” when dry-firing the DA shot on my P229.

Haven’t noticed it on my P30 LEM. Maybe it’s why I tend to shoot it a bit better? Not a fair comparison though I’d stake.

Glad to see I’m not the only one to ever notice this though.

[Mark D]

When dry firing my P2000 LEM the "jump" is most noticeable during reset. It's very hard to avoid, unless I pin the trigger and let it out very deliberately. But I try to avoid doing that since I don't pin the trigger when I shoot.

[Doc_Glock]

3) do you notice a deflection in your POI when live firing?

I paid attention today and it seems not to affect POI nearly as much live fire as I would expect given what I see dry.

[gomerpyle]

I have a similar problem as well, with the Beretta M9a1, which has kept me from pulling the trigger on the LTT and WC Berettas. I can break the trigger freestyle without moving the sights, but NOT with either my SH or my WH. What's more, live fire with a M9a1 can be frustrating for me, with reduced accuracy even with both hands. And like you, I can pull the trigger on a P30 and USP9 SH & WH WITHOUT the sights moving, and shoot well with either platform.

I suspect the grip of the USP and the p30 lend for a clean pull. But i also suspect that overtravel also comes into play with the M9a1. the breakpoint of the trigger is later than the HKs, and at that point I suspect the arc of my finger is traveling rightward, towards my SH.

Oddly enough, that's not the case with the Vertec Berettas, which are a joy to shoot and dead accurate in my hands.

Have you tried sticking more finger on the trigger? i suspect so, but I thought Id ask.... Also, have you allowed your trigger finger to slide across the face of the trigger as you are pulling it? In his book on revolvers (whose trigger pull is akin to the DA pull as I'm sure you know:)), Mr. Cunningham advocates a finger slide across the trigger face, which would in turn encourage a straight pull and unmoving sights......

check out his book, and the 5:00 mark on the following video: https://gundigest.com/article/video-mastering-revolvers-double-action-trigger-pull

here's a link to an article written by Mr. Cunningham: https://gundigest.com/article/video-mastering-revolvers-double-action-trigger-pull

to be sure, Pincus is using two hands as he is firing. Ive tried it with both SHO and WHO with a 92fs, with positive results.....


I have been working with a Walther P99AS lately. I noticed that when doing a dry DA trigger pull one handed (doesn’t matter which hand), the sights jump just slightly to the side right as/after the trigger breaks. It can be challenging to control. I can control it but it takes a great deal of concentration and I do it best when I grab a ton of trigger and really sink my finger to the hilt.

My issue is: I don’t understand the cause of the little jump. The trigger gets gritty and stacks toward the end, but that is sort of typical. Weight around 8lbs. When it breaks, there is that tendency to jump. The jump is easily controlled two handed.

I dry fired a few other pistols and found the Beretta 92 variants also jump a bit in this manner. The longer, heavier Beretta is slightly easier to control, but the trigger does the same thing.

In contrast, I find the HK P30 and P2000 triggers trivial to keep on target one handed in DA. No jump whatsoever. Smooth stacking and then release.

All these pistols have about an 8 lb DA trigger.

I would really like to know why some pistols, are easier for me to control after the break. Perhaps it is over travel or grip or something else?

All these triggers can be trained with practice, but what makes the HKs such outstanding one handed performers for me on that DA pull?

Any ideas?

[Wendell]

One quick method to improvise a trigger-stop is to take a pencil and remove the eraser. Measure your trigger's overtravel before cutting the pencil eraser to the proper length. Test the pencil eraser by holding the pistol vertically, placing the eraser in the triggerguard behind the trigger to act as a trigger-stop, and dry-firing the pistol until you are satisfied that the pencil eraser is the proper length to allow proper function of the trigger and to prevent unwanted overtravel. Adjust as needed. Once you're satisfied that you have the proper length, and location, use a Sharpie to paint the pencil eraser (to match the pistol frame) and then Crazy Glue the coloured, cut-to-length, pencil eraser to the pistol frame.

I first heard of this method from G&A's 'Jim Grover' (aka Kelly McCann); it should come as no surprise that it works. The only problem with this method, from my perspective, is that it's not compliant with Production and SSP divisions; for most people, that'd be a non-issue.

[MattyD380]

It's kind of a crude test... but... I stuck a foam earplug behind the trigger on my PX4cc.

I definitely notice a difference: the sights seem less subject to the "jostle" I typically get when the hammer falls. This is a "most momentous" discovery. I may try the eraser method. Perhaps it will improve my DA hit percentages in steel matches.

[LOKNLOD]

It's funny, I've noticed the same thing with my Beretta vs. HK triggers in dry fire. It's not so much an issue on the 92, but I can get a lot of horizontal wiggle towards the firing hand side with the PX4. Meanwhile the HK is hardly sensitive to it at all, despite not being nearly as "nice" of a trigger feel. As noted, it's mostly overridden by two-hand control (unless I'm just being sloppy on purpose). Also as noted, it's not nearly as obvious on the target in live fire as the dry practice would make me expect. It does a bit of a mind-f*ck on me regarding my confidence in making a single-handed shot, for sure.

Glad you brought it up; interesting discussion.

[kjr_29]

It's kind of a crude test... but... I stuck a foam earplug behind the trigger on my PX4cc.

I definitely notice a difference: the sights seem less subject to the "jostle" I typically get when the hammer falls. This is a "most momentous" discovery. I may try the eraser method. Perhaps it will improve my DA hit percentages in steel matches.

Do you think the spurless hammer might fix this, it weighs less than the normal Px4 hammer?


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[MattyD380]

Do you think the spurless hammer might fix this, it weighs less than the normal Px4 hammer?


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Good question. It doesn't seem like much mass to remove... but then again, a hammer isn't a whole lot of mass to begin with. Maybe.

Regardless, giving the trigger some kind of a cushion after it breaks seems to make a real difference. And, FWIW, my Berettas give me the jostle 2 handed as well. My Sig P239 and P245 do not. P226 is less than the Berettas. The hammer just seems to hit harder on the Berettas, for whatever reason. Though I generally prefer the trigger on my Berettas, in other respects.

I need to try it on my 3rd gens. See if I get the jostle...

[arcfide]

I get the same thing when dry firing, though it can be different directions rather than the same direction all the time. I also tracked it down mostly to an issue with over-travel, and by association, my trigger follow through. Ironically, I can avoid this fairly well with my Px4 in dry fire in SA, more so than dry fire with my APX, but that doesn't translate to the same degree of error in my live fire, with my live fire under slow conditions SHO showing almost identical results, though perhaps with the APX being slightly more consistently accurate, but with the Px4 perhaps having a slightly better precision. In other words, I'm more likely to have a tighter group slightly off center with the Px4, while I'm more likely to have a slightly larger group closer to center with the APX.

I think part of this is that the SA on my Px4 is so light and crisp that I can "touch off" the Px4 trigger when fresh and dry firing pretty well, and do so with a degree of control so that I never have to follow through into the end of the overtravel on that gun, even though the Px4 has a longer over travel. This makes the dry fire easier on the Px4, but might not translate into the live fire as well. With the APX's heavier trigger, coupled with the less crisp break, but shorter over travel, I'm more likely to hit the over travel stop, and therefore, bad follow through is likely to be more explicit in my dry fire, even if it doesn't as readily manifest during live fire.

For myself, I've determined that having to support the pistol and not having the extra hand to support my grip as well, it exacerbates issues with both my grip consistency, as well as the degree to which I move my trigger finger independently of my grip fingers and palm. When trying to diagnose this for myself, I've realized that one major cause of issues with my follow through is the variability in my grip pressure over the course of the trigger pull and the inconsistency with which grip pressure is applied to various parts of the frame. This is connected with an inconsistent application of trigger finger pressure to the front of the trigger face with my trigger finger. It is actually easier to see and diagnose these issues on the APX, because I get more feedback from the trigger and grip than I do from my Px4.

While a tight, even pressure in my grip seems to work fine when I am shooting two handed, if I am trying to shoot for precision single handed, I am not at all convinced that this helps me. Increasing grip pressure creates too many "pressure hot spots" in my grip which I can identify in the shifting front sight during follow through. Furthermore, the independence of my trigger finger is greatly reduced when I have too much grip pressure in single handed grips. What does seem to help me, though, is the classic doctrine of applying front and back pressure with the grip in a sufficient but gentle manner without applying lateral pressure to the grip. If the gun is positioned properly in my hand and the trigger reach is correct, this maximizes the chances of my achieving two things: firstly, that of best dexterity and control for a straight rearward trigger finger movement; secondly, the best chance of achieving a "locked grip" that maintains passive, neutral grip pressure and muscular tension that remains constant throughout the trigger press even to the end of the follow through. When I couple this with a smooth, rearward application of the trigger finger paying close attention to keep even pressure rearward across the entire front face of the trigger on my APX, and I focus on pinning the trigger to the rear (fully following through), I can tell when I've done it right, and the resulting sight picture when firing looks like the gun is cemented in place for the stability that is achieved. Any minute deviation from this pattern, immediately can be detected in dry fire by that little "blip" in the front sight during follow through.

In short, I find that the classic, Olympic style doctrines relating to pistol fundamentals work very well when you're trying to eek out the very best shot during dry fire single-handed. I think this also translates into any shooting single-handed where precision plays a larger than normal role (for the average action shooter). I suspect that they would need to be tweaked a little bit for the DA pull that you're seeing this issue in, but up to maybe the 6 lb. mark or so (thus including most striker-fired pistols), I'd say that they can basically be taken verbatim. After that, the "spirit rather than the letter" probably begins to apply.

Of course, this is all just relating to my own experience with the same issues that you are seeing in your dry fire. I am not an Olympic class shooter nor can I shoot groups anywhere close to that on the range.

[Bill]

In DA I like to imagine that the back of the trigger guard is HOT so I don’t touch it hard and get my finger off it quickly after the hammer falls.

I like this! Its little tidbits like this, new little ways to reimagine and re-synthesize a concept that makes this forum worth it. Also why pursuit of the fundamentals never gets old.

[That Guy]

I have been working with a Walther P99AS lately. I noticed that when doing a dry DA trigger pull one handed (doesn’t matter which hand), the sights jump just slightly to the side right as/after the trigger breaks. It can be challenging to control. I can control it but it takes a great deal of concentration and I do it best when I grab a ton of trigger and really sink my finger to the hilt.

My issue is: I don’t understand the cause of the little jump. The trigger gets gritty and stacks toward the end, but that is sort of typical. Weight around 8lbs. When it breaks, there is that tendency to jump. The jump is easily controlled two handed.

I just checked the two P99's immediately available to me (both pretty early 1st generation guns). In both the DA trigger pull does get heavier near the end, but neither exhibited any sort of grittiness. One of the guns is on its third firing mechanism, and I do not recall any grittiness with any of them. (There is some variance in trigger pull feel from one mechanism to the next, but with all of them the trigger pull has remained quite clean. It's the amount of stacking that differs.)

I too noticed the "jump" but found it pretty easy to control. Tried this with weapon hand only, it didn't occur to me to try it support hand only. My trigger pull technique differs from yours in that I use quite little finger on the trigger - the center of the pad of my trigger finger is on the edge of the trigger during the beginning of the triggers movement. Then again, I have small hands so I'm kind of forced to use less trigger finger on most guns. Anyways, seems to me the "jump" is caused by incorrect movement of the trigger. Focus on pressing straight to the rear at the moment the striker releases. Done correctly, the sights should remain still when the gun clicks. (I was successful in doing clean trigger presses with both guns.)

(Both guns I tried have the same Hogue grip sleeves with finger grooves ground off to give a bit of width and curve to the side of the grip. I don't know what if anything you've done to the grip of your gun, but that might also make a small difference; although the reason for the grip sleeve is improved recoil control during rapid two-handed shooting. Never noticed it being neither a benefit nor a hindrance to one-handed slow fire.)