Israeli Commando Brigade switching from the Tavor to M4s

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.israeldefense.com/en/node/35539


Israel Defense has learned that the IDF Commando Brigade will replace its current Tavor assault rifles with M4 Carbines.

The brigade has already received the first batch of the new rifles, which will arm both regular servicemen and reservists. The Tavor AR was used in the Egoz and Rimon units.

[spinmove_]

Every Tavor Owner: Oh man! I need to dump this Tavor and get an M4, because: the Israelis are doing it!


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[WobblyPossum]

It really is hard to beat the AR pattern carbine/rifle for anything the average service member needs a carbine or rifle for. I don’t plan on replacing my ARs until we start fielding laser weapons or miniaturized rail guns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TiroFijo]

Fist they dumped the Galil for the AR

Now the Tavor for the M4

History repeats itself...

[Screwball]

Every Tavor Owner: Oh man! I need to dump this Tavor and get an M4, because: the Israelis are doing it!

Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Hell no...

I’m far from a bullpup guy, but out of all the ones I’ve handled, the original Tavor has been the best one. Having one with a Geissele trigger pack and bow, it’s not going anywhere... whether the Israelis keep it or move back to percussion rifles.

https://i.imgur.com/C4B5pdY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PNoieCh.jpg

Only other bullpup I’ve personally owned was a KSG, and owned is definitely past tense (prefer my TAC-14 over it), but that compares to my four ARs... which I still own (original 16” build, .45 D/I carbine, 18” scoped FDE rifle, and my lower sitting in PA with a Fostech Echo II in it). I don’t feel the Tavor is superior, but has the ability to excel in certain roles. Overall, the AR spanks it in flexibility.

[Stephanie B]

Fist they dumped the Galil for the AR.
I thought they developed the Galil because the soldiers said that the AK was ”the lion of the desert” and the M16 sucked.

[TiroFijo]

I thought they developed the Galil because the soldiers said that the AK was ”the lion of the desert” and the FAL sucked.

FIFY

[Bigghoss]

As I understand it, a lot of the special forces of our allies use some flavor of M4.

[jetfire]

As I understand it, a lot of the special forces of our allies use some flavor of M4.

Pretty much every NATO country’s special operations unit use some kind of M4ish rifle, if you include the HK416 in the extended family of M4s.

[Greg]

You might begin to wonder if the M4 isn't the flaming piece of crap the media likes to say it is every 2-3 years.

(sarcasm)

[Gadfly]

You might begin to wonder if the M4 isn't the flaming piece of crap the media likes to say it is every 2-3 years.

(sarcasm)

We had the AUG for a while. I was glad to dump it for the M4.

About 4 years back, We got 4 full auto SBR SCARs sent to the office. we were supposed to let the SRT (swat) types and instructors finger them for 30 days. We took a survey on what we thought, and took a vote. Dump the M4 for the new sexy SCAR, or keep the M4? It was unanimous to keep the M4.

Funny thing is, on day one, it was close to unanimous to switch to the SCAR when everyone was fingering them in the office. "It looks sooooo cool". Then they spent a few days running with them and shooting them. The "looks cool" gave way to "this kind of sucks" pretty quickly.

Do we have some issues with our M4s? Yes. Typically its people trying to armorer shit they don't know how to armor. Last week I had a 3 round burst cam screw the gun, so that in semi, they gun had a dead trigger (fail to reset) every three rounds. But over all, they run well.

[Redhat]

...Typically its people trying to armorer shit they don't know how to armor.


So who is tasked with inspection / repair of your weapons?

[TGS]

Can someone post/discuss the given reasons in the article for why the change occurred?

I'm currently in a country that blocks access to anything related to Israel on the interwebs and the VPN is just too damn slow.

[HCM]

So who is tasked with inspection / repair of your weapons?

Agency certified armorers. Either field armorers (collateral duty for firearms instructors) or the armorers at the national armory.

When you were in the USAF what would happen if “regular joe” airman decided to swap out his M4 pistol grip and lost the safety detention or removed the castle nut to add his own Mag ASAP receiver end plate and mis threaded the receiver extension while re-installing it?

That is what he is talking about.

[jetfire]

You might begin to wonder if the M4 isn't the flaming piece of crap the media likes to say it is every 2-3 years.

(sarcasm)

It’s only a flaming piece of crap when troops/cops are using it, the rest of the time it’s a death-dealing murder machine unmatched in lethality.

[jetfire]

When you were in the USAF what would happen if “regular joe” airman decided to swap out his M4 pistol grip and lost the safety detention or removed the castle nut to add his own Mag ASAP receiver end plate and mis threaded the receiver extension while re-installing it?

That airman’s very best scenario would be getting to brief the flight at the next guardmount on why you’re not allowed to mess with your rifle, along with some wall to wall counseling.

In today’s Air Force he’d also get an LOC at the least and more likely an LOR.

[Gadfly]

Agency certified armorers. Either field armorers (collateral duty for firearms instructors) or the armorers at the national armory.

When you were in the USAF what would happen if “regular joe” airman decided to swap out his M4 pistol grip and lost the safety detention or removed the castle nut to add his own Mag ASAP receiver end plate and mis threaded the receiver extension while re-installing it?

That is what he is talking about.

^^ Exactly ^^

Also, removing receiver end plate and losing spring and detent for rear take down pin. Adding new pistol grip and miss threading screw into receiver and eating up the threads, or not staking the castle nut when trying to sneak on a new end plate, or the guy who tried to install a magpul trigger guard and broke an ear off the lower receiver hammering in the roll pin (So he used electrical tape to hold it all together thinking no one would notice... and my personal favorite, removing the FSP and installing a clamp on gas block, but only installing it with two screws, not the three it came with. It actually stayed on the gun for 5 rounds before it blew apart...


So who is tasked with inspection / repair of your weapons?


Every January/February we have the armorers do a full inspection of all duty guns. It can get scary what we find.

[Redhat]

Agency certified armorers. Either field armorers (collateral duty for firearms instructors) or the armorers at the national armory.

When you were in the USAF what would happen if “regular joe” airman decided to swap out his M4 pistol grip and lost the safety detention or removed the castle nut to add his own Mag ASAP receiver end plate and mis threaded the receiver extension while re-installing it?

That is what he is talking about.

Said Airman would be in trouble especially if they ruined the lower receiver...the idea that someone out there would even think about doing that is bizarre to me. The worst thing I saw was unapproved slings and maybe optics.

[Guerrero]

Can someone post/discuss the given reasons in the article for why the change occurred?

I'm currently in a country that blocks access to anything related to Israel on the interwebs and the VPN is just too damn slow.


Entirety of the article:

Israel Defense has learned that the IDF Commando Brigade will replace its current Tavor assault rifles with M4 Carbines.

The brigade has already received the first batch of the new rifles, which will arm both regular servicemen and reservists. The Tavor AR was used in the Egoz and Rimon units.

This move aims to standardize the weapons carried by all warfighters across the brigade. Naturally, the process could take some time.

[Sal Picante]

It really is hard to beat the AR pattern carbine/rifle for anything the average service member needs a carbine or rifle for. I don’t plan on replacing my ARs until we start fielding laser weapons or miniaturized rail guns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WdITpxeDE

Hey, just what you see pal...

[Dagga Boy]

I spent some significant time with a couple guys from the Israeli military who were part of their most elite units with significant combat experience (and unlike all the other “elite Israeli Commandos” were VERY secretive about what they did or their status). We had a good discussion on some of this. In the case of the Galil, he lived the SAR and his unit used them extensively, especially in the desert and during cross border operations. With that said, when it came to working urban operations and much of their other tasks, they loved the light weight and fast handling of the telescoping stocked short M16 based guns. The reality I found is like most, these folks want a tool. It needs to be easily supported and easy to use and to keep running. I had a good friend sum this up well. When out of country by himself and unsupported by any US logistics chain, he used AK’s. When supported by a US logistics chain, the right tool was a Colt M16 based carbine.
There is a place for bullpups, and a place for M16 based guns, and they will not be the same place.

[TiroFijo]

...plus in "modern times" you need rails for light, NV pointer/illuminator, and good, quick mounts for optics with good return to zero. Even the light AR is no more after so many add ons, imagine starting with a 8.7 lbs (Galil AR) rifle.

The AR has all this and more, it is super accurate (can easily be free floated), super light, ergonomic and modular (you can change/customize every part to fit your needs) and continues to evolve every day. Other plattforms not so much and age quickly.

The AR is not perfect, but it has many attributes to keep it up to date. Especially in a modern, well trained army and urban environments.

[Bucky]

When I was a right handed shooter, I thought bull pups were the coolest thing. After learning I was left eye dominant, I taught myself to shoot left handed. Now I can shoot either handed, and most bullpups aren’t ambi friendly. Also, a rifle kaboom would likely be much more dicey.

[El Cid]

Other than shooting a few rounds through one on a flat range (no drills or anything - just trying a fellow shooters AUG), I’ve never put in work on a bullpup. It would seem to me that emergency reloads are slower than an AR style rifle. Is that a logical presumption?

[Bart Carter]

Years ago I bought an FN FS2000 after much research about bullpups. I haven't shot it in years. I shoot my PCC based AR at least once a week on average. My 556 versions once a month.

[Bigghoss]

My buddy has an FS2000. I like that it's forward ejecting but the trigger is awful.

[RevolverRob]

Rifle logistics are more simple than many make them out to be.

If you're in a NATO-spec country, an AR-variant is what you want. If you're in a former USSR-bloc or Communist-spec country, an AK-variant is what you want.

In the case of Israel - they're surrounded by Communist-spec countries, but now essentially run on a US and NATO-spec supply chain. So, the adoption of the M4 simply makes their lives easier. The Tavor is too different to allow a high-degree of STANAG interchange. Look at the French - you want to cut costs, but not performance? Drop the home-grown shit and get an AR-platform weapon (in the French case, the HK416, Israel the M4).

It won't be long before the only one regularly shooting bullpups is Dagga Boy

[BehindBlueI's]

We had them for T&E. One completely stock, one with some aftermarket trigger pack that I don't recall, both kitted out with red dots. For what we do, I found the M-4/M-16 to be superior in every regard.

[Gadfly]

[QUOTE=BehindBlueI's;782879For what we do, I found the M-4/M-16 to be superior in every regard.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

(Side note:)
But now, we are going to be getting these fancy new MCXs in the next year or so. And I have to decide if the M4 or MCX is better for what we do. Which is a lot of vehicle take downs and entries into small houses and apartments. I thought we were done with sub guns when the mp5s started going away. But I guess not. I do know I can only pick one issued long gun... (end side note)



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(So Excuse the typos)

[WobblyPossum]

Agreed.

(Side note:)
But now, we are going to be getting these fancy new MCXs in the next year or so. And I have to decide if the M4 or MCX is better for what we do. Which is a lot of vehicle take downs and entries into small houses and apartments. I thought we were done with sub guns when the mp5s started going away. But I guess not. I do know I can only pick one issued long gun... (end side note)



Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

MCX or MPX? I wouldn't say the MCX is a submachine gun.

[Gadfly]

MCX or MPX? I wouldn't say the MCX is a submachine gun.

MPX in 9mm with a happy switch.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180905/05538627b056f7773acc753ea5618a65.jpg


Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

[WobblyPossum]

MPX in 9mm with a happy switch.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180905/05538627b056f7773acc753ea5618a65.jpg


Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)
The MPX doesn't look much shorter than the AR next to it from that photo. What's the reasoning for adding a new submachine gun option to the arsenal? Once 11.5" ARs became more mainstream, I couldn't really think of a role for the submachine gun for general purpose LE duties with the exception of some protection details.

[Gadfly]

The MPX doesn't look much shorter than the AR next to it from that photo. What's the reasoning for adding a new submachine gun option to the arsenal? Once 11.5" ARs became more mainstream, I couldn't really think of a role for the submachine gun for general purpose LE duties with the exception of some protection details.

Folded up, its about 8" shorter, which riding in a car actually males a difference. Also, it recoils less, less muzzle blast, and in burst fire is sooo much more controllable.
I don't know who up the chain made the decision to buy the MPX, but it is coming. As an all around GP long gun, the M4 SBR rocks. But I am not taking shots at 100 yards or more. I am dealing with front bumper of a car to back bumper of a car, or shitty hotel rooms, or stash house apartments with 15-20 aliens locked in one room.

I can see a use for the MPX, and I see a use for the M4.
No telling when they will show up, so for now, I continue to rock the M4.

[HCM]

Folded up, its about 8" shorter, which riding in a car actually males a difference. Also, it recoils less, less muzzle blast, and in burst fire is sooo much more controllable.
I don't know who up the chain made the decision to buy the MPX, but it is coming. As an all around GP long gun, the M4 SBR rocks. But I am not taking shots at 100 yards or more. I am dealing with front bumper of a car to back bumper of a car, or shitty hotel rooms, or stash house apartments with 15-20 aliens locked in one room.

I can see a use for the MPX, and I see a use for the M4.
No telling when they will show up, so for now, I continue to rock the M4.

Personally I will stick with the M 4.

One of the particular benefits of the MPX is the manual of arms is nearly identical to the M4.

Regarding the size issue, the LAW folder is a viable soloution which could easily be retrofitted to existing M4’s.

[Gadfly]

Regarding the size issue, the LAW folder is a viable soloution which could easily be retrofitted to existing M4’s.

Uhhh, since when can we have nice things on issued weapons? I agree it would be a good thing, but it will never happen.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Folded up, its about 8" shorter, which riding in a car actually males a difference. Also, it recoils less, less muzzle blast, and in burst fire is sooo much more controllable.
I don't know who up the chain made the decision to buy the MPX, but it is coming. As an all around GP long gun, the M4 SBR rocks. But I am not taking shots at 100 yards or more. I am dealing with front bumper of a car to back bumper of a car, or shitty hotel rooms, or stash house apartments with 15-20 aliens locked in one room.

I can see a use for the MPX, and I see a use for the M4.
No telling when they will show up, so for now, I continue to rock the M4.

The answer to those problems was called "MP-5" when we dealt with the same thing in the 80s and 90s. It's still a viable choice and a ton of fun to shoot.

[HCM]

Uhhh, since when can we have nice things on issued weapons? I agree it would be a good thing, but it will never happen.

That’s what they said when we suggested VTAC slings and Aimpoints. It will take a few years but it’s not impossible.

[Redhat]

The answer to those problems was called "MP-5" when we dealt with the same thing in the 80s and 90s. It's still a viable choice and a ton of fun to shoot.

Can you refresh my memory on why M16 type carbines largely replaced the sub-guns?

[Dagga Boy]

The answer to those problems was called "MP-5" when we dealt with the same thing in the 80s and 90s. It's still a viable choice and a ton of fun to shoot.

Yea, for indoor room combat, the MP-5 is a great
gun. Same for working out of cars. For field stuff....that is what rifles are for. Most of us even knew that back in the 80’s and 90’s.

[RevolverRob]

Can you refresh my memory on why M16 type carbines largely replaced the sub-guns?

Wayne can probably elaborate, but my impression was always 1) Proliferation of body armor capable of stopping 9mm ammo. 2) Lack of high quality bonded 9mm JHPs at the time. 3) Hollywood Shootout doctrine that taught rifles = better.

For patrol vehicles, it's hard to argue with the utility of a red-dot equipped AR15 and 12-gauge shotgun. But for specialized work, the subgun remains a viable option. Some of that specialization is vehicle-borne operations and things like VIP protection. VIP Protection work in the Middle East has demonstrated that the folding stock AK and the subgun are very viable as tools to be deployed from inside of a vehicle. If I was going to spend a lot of time in a car and potentially be deploying a weapon from inside of a vehicle - I would strongly prefer a subgun (preferably suppressed just to make it easier on me and the passengers in the vehicle), after that a folding AK, and then a bullpup rifle variant.

I guess it's also fair to point out - when most of the bullpup variants out there came about. The prevailing military doctrine was that virtually all troops would be vehicle-borne and thus deployment from vehicles would be one of the key components of military engagement. It seemed that the plan initially was that all troops would deploy from trucks or helicopters and thus the value of the bullpup in terms of compactness was ideal. What we've seen since then is that vehicle-based deployment, particularly for Infantry, is hardly as common as was expected. The addition of VBIEDs and subsequent refinement of military transport vehicles into essentially heavily armored transports, means that the need to deploy a small-arm from inside the vehicle is very limited in a military setting. All of the real advantages of the bullpup are negated in this setting.

This was definitely true for the Israelis in the '70s-80s when the TAVOR concept came of age. They took their lessons from Egypt and figured they would do a lot of vehicle-based fighting. I think the Israelis planned on fighting more traditional wars against Egypt, Iran, and Syria. Not what they're actually doing (fighting insurgencies in their own backyard).

[HCM]

The answer to those problems was called "MP-5" when we dealt with the same thing in the 80s and 90s. It's still a viable choice and a ton of fun to shoot.

They are quite fun to shoot. We've had them in inventory for decades but they have been replaced by M4's via attrition for at least the last 10 years.

Some issues with the MP-5 are cost and the fact that HK has been trying to discontinue them for at least 20 years.

The MPX's operation / controls mirroring the M-4 seems to be one of it's biggest selling points from an agency POV.

[Clusterfrack]

I like my Tavor quite a bit, although I did a lot to it to make it more AR-like.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180906/be4e6e3f22dc234b41bad7af262cff26.jpg

But, I like ARs better for nearly every application.

[Sensei]

Can someone post/discuss the given reasons in the article for why the change occurred?

I'm currently in a country that blocks access to anything related to Israel on the interwebs and the VPN is just too damn slow.

The article does not go into details as to why the change. However, the M4 has always been popular within the Israeli special operations community. I suspect as more specialized units got absorbed by 89th Oz, the center of gravity shifted from the Tavor to the M4. Keep in mind, this is one unit of elite, rapid reaction, light infantry (similar to our 75th Ranger Regiment) standardizing on the M4 - not the entire IDF.

[BehindBlueI's]

Can you refresh my memory on why M16 type carbines largely replaced the sub-guns?

Terminal ballistics. With proper bullet selection you get a round that does a lot of meat damage but mitigates misses by upsetting and fragmenting after hitting non-meat targets, reducing the chances of a pass-through/miss injuring or killing someone else. ARs are also relatively inexpensive, ergonomic, and a significant portion of applicants already have a passing familiarity with the weapon.

[Redhat]

Terminal ballistics. With proper bullet selection you get a round that does a lot of meat damage but mitigates misses by upsetting and fragmenting after hitting non-meat targets, reducing the chances of a pass-through/miss injuring or killing someone else. ARs are also relatively inexpensive, ergonomic, and a significant portion of applicants already have a passing familiarity with the weapon.

In addition to what you mentioned, the way I remember it was the carbine could do pretty much anything the sub-gun could but the opposite was not true.

[Lester Polfus]

In addition to what you mentioned, the way I remember it was the carbine could do pretty much anything the sub-gun could but the opposite was not true.

Longer ago than I care to remember, as I was leaving, my agency was going from having 870s and MP5s in our cars to 16" AR15s. We went from two platforms to one, with all the attendant administrative overhead and training needs. We retained 870s as less lethal guns, but now didn't have to worry about a stray round of buckshot working it's way into a LTL gun, as happened in a neighboring jurisdiction a few years later.

I was loathe to give up my 14" 870, but it all made sense. I could make an argument for each officer having a golf bag full of long guns, each optimized for a different set of circumstances, but the reality of purchasing, training and maintaining drives agencies with more than a few people to have a single solution.

[awp_101]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180906/be4e6e3f22dc234b41bad7af262cff26.jpg

I'm not a bullpup fan but that's a damn good looking weapon.

[BWT]

Longer ago than I care to remember, as I was leaving, my agency was going from having 870s and MP5s in our cars to 16" AR15s. We went from two platforms to one, with all the attendant administrative overhead and training needs. We retained 870s as less lethal guns, but now didn't have to worry about a stray round of buckshot working it's way into a LTL gun, as happened in a neighboring jurisdiction a few years later.

I was loathe to give up my 14" 870, but it all made sense. I could make an argument for each officer having a golf bag full of long guns, each optimized for a different set of circumstances, but the reality of purchasing, training and maintaining drives agencies with more than a few people to have a single solution.

Cost as well. I believe a lot of agencies started as the GWOT began, etc. came into surplus equipment and DRMO (is that correct?) helped that along.

Training doctrines changed, costs were less, and as the LE in the thread have said. It's a more capable platform except for specific circumstances. I've flirted with the idea of a Sig MPX for a long time, but $1,300-1,600 for an 8'' barrel 9mm when I can get an 5.56mm AR-15 for around that or less (ETA: Actually, much less and have. I bought a Factory 12.5'' a few years back for $1050? I imagine LE costs are much closer. Anyway I'm posting out of my lane and far too much tonight)? A full-size 9mm handgun is almost an MPX's peer ballistically speaking. Reliable magazines are what $50 versus $8-10?

Now, if I had FA as an option and was in LE working in cars, that's a bit of a different story.

Cheaper and more capable - that's hard to argue with.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Bucky]

Terminal ballistics. With proper bullet selection you get a round that does a lot of meat damage but mitigates misses by upsetting and fragmenting after hitting non-meat targets, reducing the chances of a pass-through/miss injuring or killing someone else. ARs are also relatively inexpensive, ergonomic, and a significant portion of applicants already have a passing familiarity with the weapon.

I hear this a lot, and have no reason to doubt it. On the other hand, I’ve seen a 5.56 rip through a USPSA popper like butter, while even the hottest 10mms barely leave a scratch. And this is with standard 55g FMJ, not the steel core stuff. Is LE using something different?

[HCM]

I hear this a lot, and have no reason to doubt it. On the other hand, I’ve seen a 5.56 rip through a USPSA popper like butter, while even the hottest 10mms barely leave a scratch. And this is with standard 55g FMJ, not the steel core stuff. Is LE using something different?

There may be some agencies using 55 grain FMJ on duty but it is not recommended.

Normally some form of bonded soft point or hollow point. For those who can afford it, all copper hollow points.

When you start looking at rifle plates you see 55 grain FMJ / M193 is one of the hardest rounds to stop in hard mediums, especially from a 20” barrel due to the velocity. However in softer mediums the same round becomes unstable and penetrates less than Pistol bullets.

With rifle armor, there are plates which will stop the green tip steel core rounds which will not stop M193.

[BehindBlueI's]

I hear this a lot, and have no reason to doubt it. On the other hand, I’ve seen a 5.56 rip through a USPSA popper like butter, while even the hottest 10mms barely leave a scratch. And this is with standard 55g FMJ, not the steel core stuff. Is LE using something different?

Well, that's where the "with proper ammo selection" comes in to play. We use a jacketed soft point 55gr bullet.

[Bucky]

There may be some agencies using 55 grain FMJ on duty but it is not recommended.

Normally some form of bonded soft point or hollow point. For those who can afford it, all copper hollow points.

When you start looking at rifle plates you see 55 grain FMJ / M193 is one of the hardest rounds to stop in hard mediums, especially from a 20” barrel due to the velocity. However in softer mediums the same round becomes unstable and penetrates less than Pistol bullets.

With rifle armor, there are plates which will stop the green tip steel core rounds which will not stop M193.

Thanks for the explanation.

[TiroFijo]

There may be some agencies using 55 grain FMJ on duty but it is not recommended.

Normally some form of bonded soft point or hollow point. For those who can afford it, all copper hollow points.

When you start looking at rifle plates you see 55 grain FMJ / M193 is one of the hardest rounds to stop in hard mediums, especially from a 20” barrel due to the velocity. However in softer mediums the same round becomes unstable and penetrates less than Pistol bullets.

With rifle armor, there are plates which will stop the green tip steel core rounds which will not stop M193.

True! When you are dealing with steel, velocity is king for penetration... even lightweight, soft point bullets will penetrate hardened steel, or leave massive craters, given enough velocity.