Ghost lettering and/or minimally marked vehicles for traffic stops

[HCountyGuy]

Am I the only one who doesn’t get the whole fad of having patrol vehicles with “ghost lettering”?

For those of you who don’t know what Ghost Lettering is, it’s a particular style of lettering where you almost have to be directly perpendicular to the broad side of a patrol car to be able to read the writing.

Here in Georgia we have a section of our code which dictates that any vehicle used for traffic enforcement must be conspicuously marked.


O.C.G.A. 40-8-91

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this Code section, any motor vehicle which is used on official business by any person authorized to make arrests for traffic violations in this state, or any municipality or county thereof, shall be distinctly marked on each side and the back with the name of the agency responsible therefor, in letters not less than four inches in height.

...



The code section goes on to talk about marking requirements for the state patrol and a few other tidbits.

So then today I see this on Facebook for a Sheriff’s Department I mean OFFICE (had to Jlw).

29724
29725

It does conform to the requirements set forth by O.C.G.A. 40-8-91

My gripe is this:

There are plenty enough incidents of folks impersonating officers using their own rigged up unmarked cars, why add to the confusion? I would think some admin would step back and go “For the safety of our officers and the public, let’s have our traffic units marked so as there’s no mistaking them for a potential impersonator”.

[jlw]

The last part of of 40-8-91 states:

(f) An otherwise lawful arrest shall not be invalidated or in any manner affected by failure to comply with this Code section.

The law is meaningless.

That aside, I see no reason to be sneaky. I've published in the paper, put up electronic signs along the road, and sent out Nixle alerts as to where we were running speed detection and still had deputies run through a ticket book in less than an hour and get people at more than 30MPH above the limit.

The issue that I seen with agencies doing such things is that ultimately it leads to either bad statutory or case law.

[littlejerry]

I'm not LE.

Where should a citizen draw the line on when it is appropriate to pull over for a vehicle that is not distinguishable as a marked car?

I'm not a fan of unmarked cars or officers out of uniform.

[orionz06]

I'm really curious for the rationale here. One municipality near me does this and often has people not stop for them. I've had a few yellow light runners go past my home and continue driving until the second, marked, vehicle shows up.

[awp_101]

I'm not LE.

Where should a citizen draw the line on when it is appropriate to pull over for a vehicle that is not distinguishable as a marked car?
Neither am I and that's a real good question. Maybe find the closest public area with lots of people or traffic just like if you were meeting someone to sell something? If that's not an option, maybe call the local PD or 911 to see if it's legit first? Just don't make it look like you're trying to run.

I like my police cars to be conspicuously marked and easily distinguishable. Not so I can hide or stop whatever nefarious activity I'm engaged in but because if I need a cop, I don't want to have to guess which cars is his!

[TAZ]

Follow the $$. When folks see a bright yellow Crown Vic with search lights atop they tend to slow down and obey the rules for a short stint. That means no ticket. No idea how effective tickets are at changing driving habits, so I can’t comment on what’s more effective keeping people safe from speeders. But it’s hard to justify stuff to political hacks without stats.

Personally, I don’t like the ghost marks, nor the use of common paint colors and schemes for anything other that UC work, and plain clothes guys. There are plenty of folks out there who impersonate cops and do bad things to folks unfortunate enough to stop for them. Why make that easier? Why not make it insanely easy to prove criminal intent/pre meditation with the whole he had to paint his car bright pink and blue polka dots...

Want to issue tickets, use remote radar/laser with camera and have a visibly marked cruiser issue the ticket down the road.

Better yet, get more officers in vehicles visible from orbit patrolling on a more routine basis. Maybe tell chiefs, colonels, majors and all the other office staff to get in a car for half the day.

[Beat Trash]

The first issue I have is for the safety of the officers. IF you are out of the car on a traffic stop, or investigating an auto accident, or just about any call for service for that matter, the marked vehicle helps to prevent other drivers from hitting your vehicle and/or you.

I haven't done traffic enforcement in over 20 years (it never really has been my thing), but from what I remember, you really didn't need ghost markings on your car to find traffic violations.

[TGS]

Note: I work plainclothes for a federal agency, so with regards to patrol tactics/practice, the basis for my opinion might stem for reasons closer to a regular joe than a cop. Another way of putting it is that I don't know jack squat about uniformed patrol operations.

With that being said, I don't like the idea of unmarked vehicles for patrol, and I absolutely despise the idea of plainclothes cops conducting routine traffic stops. Reason being pretty much what you guys have already touched on.

There's a reason that when conducting enforcement ops, it's common for federal agencies to ask for local uniforms to assist. At my last job on the warrant squad, we did it pretty much every time we hit a house. A trooper I talked with at one point had performed countless "directed stops" for feds, and after a spate of highway robberies by plainclothes cop impersonators they seemed unequivocally supportive of doing such. They "got it", and didn't consider it a nuisance.

Even when stopping at houses to conduct interviews in smaller towns, I usually at least called the local PD (if not stopped by for a call history/introduction) to let them know where we were, who we were, what we were doing, and our contact info....and then I'd check out with them at the end. My best friend (prior cop for 8 years in a very aggressive anti-crime plainclothes unit) thought it was a little weird at first, but the local PDs always appreciated the heads up (as well as it showing some sort of deference/respect) and my buddy really got the point when somebody called the cops on us during a field stop. "No, mister, it's okay. Yes, we know who they are, they're real federal agents, and it's probably in your best interest to open the door and talk to them." After that he started doing the same thing.

All of this is just to point out that there are certain considerations to being of reduced profile in LE operations, and it behooves us and IMO better serves the community for us to be as easily ID'd/verifiable as possible. I don't see any reason that routine traffic duties should be performed by an unmarked car, but I might be missing something given I'm not a street cop and would appreciate any input on the pros outweighing the cons.

[CSW]

As a profession, I build police vehicles for a living. I've done so since 1997. Witnessed the swap from rotators, to halogen to LED's, to now the 4th gen LED's.

The first 'low profile' vehicle I built was without a lightbar, and all hide-aways; something mainstream and common today, but for the early 2000's.....whew!!!!!:cool:

"Now a days", we install lightbars only about 40% of the time, the rest is the low profile style.

Recently, the ghosting of the lettering is becoming very popular, well at least here in NH. NHSP and a few others have 'ghost vehicles' that mostly patrol highway and interstates.

A lot of it is black vehicles, with retro reflective black lettering and emblems.


Y'all be safe out there.

[txdpd]

No need to be sneaky.

I used to sit on the side of the freeway with my lights on, and could tag speeders all day long at a minimum 30mph over. People would get so pissed and think I was pulling a fast one on them, because I was on the side of the road, with my lights on and running radar.

[Trooper224]

This has always been a bur under my saddle. A patrol vehicle should be highly visible for several reasons: deterrence by way of visible presence and quick recognition by the public. In other words, the bad guys need to know the cops are around and the good guys need to be able to recognize a cop if they need one. If there's one thing I've learned in a quarter century of uniformed patrol work it's this: the general public largely moves through life with their heads up their ass. If you want to catch traffic violators you don't need an unmarked car to do it. You can paint your cruiser tangerine orange with lime green door panels and most of them won't see you until it's too late. In twenty seven years I've made exactly one stop in an unmarked car. I was in plain clothes and driving an unmarked car at the time, while going home from an assignment. The only reason I made the stop was due to the hazardous nature of how the vehicle was being driven. It was one of of those, "stop it now before it kills someone" situations. As soon as I was able I radioed for a marked unit and handed it over to them. The whole process made me very uncomfortable and I felt strangely exposed the whole time.

Officers themselves like unmarked cars and low profile graphics because they think they look cool and tough. They may give you some kind of bull shit tactical excuse, but that's really the underlying answer if we're being honest. They like cruisers that look tough and blacked out because they fall victim to the cool kid syndrome just like everyone else.

[orionz06]

Officers themselves like unmarked cars and low profile graphics because they think they look cool and tough. They may give you some kind of bull shit tactical excuse, but that's really the underlying answer if we're being honest. They like cruisers that look tough and blacked out because they fall victim to the cool kid syndrome just like everyone else.

The worst offenders near me have some pretty badass looking cars. I get that appeal. Black on black is fucking cool as hell, no doubt about it.

[Trooper224]

The worst offenders near me have some pretty badass looking cars. I get that appeal. Black on black is fucking cool as hell, no doubt about it.

It certainly is, but we're there to protect and serve, not look cool as hell.

[Duelist]

No need to be sneaky.

I used to sit on the side of the freeway with my lights on, and could tag speeders all day long at a minimum 30mph over. People would get so pissed and think I was pulling a fast one on them, because I was on the side of the road, with my lights on and running radar.

I saw a guy do that last night. I slowed and pulled into the opposite lane, as required by state law.

Another driver did neither (and he was going a *lot* faster than I was as well). And the trooper promptly pulled out and pulled him over.

That kind of Karma makes me giggle.

[Coyotesfan97]

Even when stopping at houses to conduct interviews in smaller towns, I usually at least called the local PD (if not stopped by for a call history/introduction) to let them know where we were, who we were, what we were doing, and our contact info....and then I'd check out with them at the end. My best friend (prior cop for 8 years in a very aggressive anti-crime plainclothes unit) thought it was a little weird at first, but the local PDs always appreciated the heads up (as well as it showing some sort of deference/respect) and my buddy really got the point when somebody called the cops on us during a field stop. "No, mister, it's okay. Yes, we know who they are, they're real federal agents, and it's probably in your best interest to open the door and talk to them." After that he started doing the same thing

That’s our SOP for out of town operations. It’s surely better for the local agency and you if it hits the fan they know you’re there. I don’t know how E-calls I’ve heard about men with guns at so and so that turned out to be plainclothes cops doing an operation where no notifications were made.

And that includes my own agency in our city where all it takes is a radio transmission on the patrol districts channel.

[BehindBlueI's]

Follow the $$. When folks see a bright yellow Crown Vic with search lights atop they tend to slow down and obey the rules for a short stint. That means no ticket.

Has not been my experience. Plenty of HUA drivers don't notice me until long after I'd have ticketed them if I cared to.


You can paint your cruiser tangerine orange with lime green door panels and most of them won't see you until it's too late.

Yup.


It certainly is, but we're there to protect and serve, not look cool as hell.

You can do both. Like it or not, LE needs to be a bit sexy if you want to recruit. I don't think anybody in LE is experiencing an increase in recruiting.

Anyway, I don't see the big deal for traffic enforcement, particularly highway patrol. Impersonators aren't pulling people over during rush hour or in construction zones. At night in a more rural area? Different considerations. Our state police have used Mustangs, white trucks that look like DOT trucks for construction zone enforcement, and even ridden in the cab of tractor-trailers and radioed marked units. It's never been an issue, and it's certainly not new here. Need a cop? In the day and age of cell phones I'm having a hard time thinking the best plan is to drive around looking for a marked car.

Not something I have strong feelings about either way. Now sedan vs SUV...that's a more interesting question we're going to have to answer now that Ford's done with the Interceptor.

[Trooper224]

Has not been my experience. Plenty of HUA drivers don't notice me until long after I'd have ticketed them if I cared to.



Yup.



You can do both. Like it or not, LE needs to be a bit sexy if you want to recruit. I don't think anybody in LE is experiencing an increase in recruiting.

Anyway, I don't see the big deal for traffic enforcement, particularly highway patrol. Impersonators aren't pulling people over during rush hour or in construction zones. At night in a more rural area? Different considerations. Our state police have used Mustangs, white trucks that look like DOT trucks for construction zone enforcement, and even ridden in the cab of tractor-trailers and radioed marked units. It's never been an issue, and it's certainly not new here. Need a cop? In the day and age of cell phones I'm having a hard time thinking the best plan is to drive around looking for a marked car.

Not something I have strong feelings about either way. Now sedan vs SUV...that's a more interesting question we're going to have to answer now that Ford's done with the Interceptor.


The big deal? Ever dealt with local and district courts concerning their opinions of such things and experienced how such perceptions effect their professional judgements? Ever fought with state legislators over budgetary issues and experienced how their perceptions of such things effect their votes? If you'd ever done any of those things you might see the deal, or have stronger feelings about the issue.

There are plenty of ways to increase the visual appeal of an agency without appealing to the inner man child of prospective applicants.

[littlejerry]

Has not been my experience. Plenty of HUA drivers don't notice me until long after I'd have ticketed them if I cared to.



Yup.



You can do both. Like it or not, LE needs to be a bit sexy if you want to recruit. I don't think anybody in LE is experiencing an increase in recruiting.

Anyway, I don't see the big deal for traffic enforcement, particularly highway patrol. Impersonators aren't pulling people over during rush hour or in construction zones. At night in a more rural area? Different considerations. Our state police have used Mustangs, white trucks that look like DOT trucks for construction zone enforcement, and even ridden in the cab of tractor-trailers and radioed marked units. It's never been an issue, and it's certainly not new here. Need a cop? In the day and age of cell phones I'm having a hard time thinking the best plan is to drive around looking for a marked car.

Not something I have strong feelings about either way. Now sedan vs SUV...that's a more interesting question we're going to have to answer now that Ford's done with the Interceptor.

If an unmarked Mustang or white DOT truck tried to pull me over... I wouldn't. Would you pull over for an ice cream truck? A UPS truck? Would you want your wife or daughter to? At some point you cross a line. For me that line is clear markings on the vehicle and recognizable uniforms.

[Sammy1]

In my city we have a designated traffic car painted white with ghost lettering. On limited access roadways (no place to pull over and do stationary work) this car rules. Much easier to find distracted drivers, red light violations... When the ghost car is behind you with it's lights on you can't tell it from a marked cruiser. except for the light bar but there are so many lights on the ghost car it's still hard to tell the difference.

[orionz06]

In my city we have a designated traffic car painted white with ghost lettering. On limited access roadways (no place to pull over and do stationary work) this car rules. Much easier to find distracted drivers, red light violations... When the ghost car is behind you with it's lights on you can't tell it from a marked cruiser. except for the light bar but there are so many lights on the ghost car it's still hard to tell the difference.

Wait, you actually pull over distracted drivers?

That would be amazing if that shit actually happened around here.

[fwrun]

In my experience, I was much more successful in finding meth and thieves at night with the black/ghosted slick top than I have been with my “new” reflective striped crown Vic. Observation of known drug locations was a lot easier too.

[BehindBlueI's]

If an unmarked Mustang or white DOT truck tried to pull me over... I wouldn't. Would you pull over for an ice cream truck? A UPS truck? Would you want your wife or daughter to? At some point you cross a line. For me that line is clear markings on the vehicle and recognizable uniforms.

They are in uniform. State law says one or the other to write tickets, marked car or uniform. Non-traffic enforcement (ie a traffic stop but for a theft suspect) doesn't require either. Do whatever your big enough to get away with, but it's not caused a bunch of issues here. A vehicle with emergency lights and sirens? Yeah, I'd pull over. I'm not scared of an impersonator if it turns out to be one.

Yes, I'd want my wife to pull over for the ISP Mustangs or F-150s as I'd rather she not go to jail for felony fleeing or get a ticket for failure to yield. Again, the answer might be different in different circumstances. I'm not real worried about impersonators working rush hour traffic for some nefarious reason.

[BehindBlueI's]

In my experience, I was much more successful in finding meth and thieves at night with the black/ghosted slick top than I have been with my “new” reflective striped crown Vic. Observation of known drug locations was a lot easier too.

When we first merged with the sheriff's dept we went to gray cars with a black stripe package so we wouldn't have city white or county brown with the "new" department. Guys loved them for alley creeping. They lasted a few years, then we went back to white and a much simpler gold stripe package because $$$.

[TGS]

Impersonators aren't pulling people over during rush hour or in construction zones. At night in a more rural area? Different considerations.


I'm not real worried about impersonators working rush hour traffic for some nefarious reason.

Why the focus in your commentary on rush hour traffic?

Impersonators don't only operate in rural areas at night. Impersonators have been impersonating LEOs in broad daylight. Just because it doesn't happen in rush hour traffic....or better put, hasn't happened in your area......doesn't mean that it has not happened in the US or will not happen in your area. It's certainly happened in other areas of the country, so I don't see how, "yeah but it hasn't happened here" is a reasoned response to an obviously bad idea with known consequences.

[KeeFus]

Wow, who would have ever thought there would be so much discussion on unmarked and/or ghost stripped vehicles.

I have driven marked vehicles, motors, and now an unmarked vehicle. We have a ghost vehicle in the budget and I hope it’s mine. In N.C., it doesn’t matter if an unmarked or marked vehicle is behind you...you need to pull over. Worried about a BL bandit? Call 911, turn on your hazard lights, and slow down until you get to where you “feel” safe :rolleyes:.

While attending a class in Georgia I was driving my unmarked and one of the guys from Georgia asked why I had a radar. I told him to write tickets! LOL. He told me that in Georgia local municipalities couldn’t stop anyone on an unmarked vehicle unless it was a serious felony...otherwise the had to get a marked unit to stop a car. However, he stated that GSP could have unmarked...? I couldn’t understand why a state agency could and a local agency couldn’t...politics?

Whatever. If you really do not want to be seen jump onto a motor. Emergency Lights on with siren blaring they will not see you. Drivers do not see motor cops...they just assume it’s a regular motorcycle.

Unmarked/ghost stripped vehicles have their uses. I’d rather have a ghost graphics car than an unmarked simply because at night it can be seen better. As has been stated most people don’t pay enough attention to notice if you’re marked...but an unmarked cruiser grabs almost no attention... especially from violators who are looking for a glimmer of sun reflecting from a bar light or a reflection from stripping at night, etc.

[Hambo]

the marked vehicle helps to prevent other drivers from hitting your vehicle and/or you.

Only if they're sober and paying attention, which are rare conditions these days.

One city here has ghost marked units for the traffic unit, but they seem to work only as a unit, meaning 4-5 cars, and they favor a few speed trap areas. On main thoroughfares traffic moves at 10-20mph over the posted limits with impunity. The SO traffic/DUI cars are marked, and I see them make a lot more stops. This might have nothing to do with markings and everything to do with the ambition, or lack of it, of the officers/deputies.

[BehindBlueI's]

Why the focus in your commentary on rush hour traffic?


Because that's where the ISP Mustangs that I was referencing are used. Day time traffic enforcement. DOT trucks, construction zones. They don't use the unmarked at night.


Impersonators don't only operate in rural areas at night. Impersonators have been impersonating LEOs in broad daylight. Just because it doesn't happen in rush hour traffic....or better put, hasn't happened in your area......doesn't mean that it has not happened in the US or will not happen in your area. It's certainly happened in other areas of the country, so I don't see how, "yeah but it hasn't happened here" is a reasoned response to an obviously bad idea with known consequences.

Oh we've had impersonators. Some people have even been robbers. None of them were driving a Mustang, pickup truck, etc. They were in Crown Vics or SUVs made to look like police vehicles. More often then not they had some BS "uniform" on as well. Security guards and volunteer firefighters seem to be drawn to it more often then other professions, for some reason. However that's the element being missed here. You want to play odds/stakes then get actual data on which is more likely to be the impersonator...and it's one that looks mostly like a "cop car" for the area.

Local impersonators:


The woman says she stopped after what looked like a police car came up behind her with lights and sirens on.

The driver was wearing a campaign hat but took it off before getting out to talk to her.

She says she felt even more uneasy when she noticed his belt only had a holster on it and the pistol looked fake.

His badge also just said "sheriff" and he didn't give his name, asking her instead, "Do you know what you did wrong?"

The woman took off when the man told her to get out of the car for refusing to hand over her ID.

And this genius who showed up at a police funeral for one of my department's fallen offices and claimed to be with our department:


In police uniform, with a badge and a duty belt with firearms holstered, Nguyen...a black 2012 Dodge Charger equipped with a siren, flashing lights and a two-way radio

And these guys (along with another that's now defunct) doing traffic stops, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dewv4RcdQpE

So, yeah. I'm not worried about the Mustangs, F-150s, etc. and in the 20 years of their use (June of 1988 was when the Mustang program started) I know of zero issues related to the program and it's been successful enough for multiple changes in brass and political leadership to keep it going. I also understand that realistically I'm not going to get out and examine the markings on the door and the black/white Crown Vic is more likely to be an impersonator than someone buying an ice cream truck and putting lights on it. Oh, and for those passing through Indiana, Conservation officers have green and black trucks and SUVs and they are real cops who can really pull you over, write tickets, arrest, etc.

[HCountyGuy]

Wow, who would have ever thought there would be so much discussion on unmarked and/or ghost stripped vehicles.

I have driven marked vehicles, motors, and now an unmarked vehicle. We have a ghost vehicle in the budget and I hope it’s mine. In N.C., it doesn’t matter if an unmarked or marked vehicle is behind you...you need to pull over. Worried about a BL bandit? Call 911, turn on your hazard lights, and slow down until you get to where you “feel” safe :rolleyes:.

While attending a class in Georgia I was driving my unmarked and one of the guys from Georgia asked why I had a radar. I told him to write tickets! LOL. He told me that in Georgia local municipalities couldn’t stop anyone on an unmarked vehicle unless it was a serious felony...otherwise the had to get a marked unit to stop a car. However, he stated that GSP could have unmarked...? I couldn’t understand why a state agency could and a local agency couldn’t...politics?

Whatever. If you really do not want to be seen jump onto a motor. Emergency Lights on with siren blaring they will not see you. Drivers do not see motor cops...they just assume it’s a regular motorcycle.

Unmarked/ghost stripped vehicles have their uses. I’d rather have a ghost graphics car than an unmarked simply because at night it can be seen better. As has been stated most people don’t pay enough attention to notice if you’re marked...but an unmarked cruiser grabs almost no attention... especially from violators who are looking for a glimmer of sun reflecting from a bar light or a reflection from stripping at night, etc.

GSP has to be marked for traffic. The same code referenced in the OP has specific sections which dictate how GSP has to be marked.


Any motor vehicle, except as hereinafter provided in this subsection, used by any employee of the Georgia State Patrol for the purpose of enforcing the traffic laws of this state shall be distinctly painted, marked, and equipped in such manner as shall be prescribed by the commissioner of public safety pursuant to this Code section.

The above is just a small portion.


As others have noted, some folks are oblivious enough to not pay attention if you’ve got a billboard telling them the po-po are right there in a bright neon car.

I get unmarked has its uses, but for a plain ole traffic stop it seems unnecessary.

Columbus, GA PD pissed off the locals recently by dressing up officers as “construction crew” and standing at the corner of a busy intersection and radioing the marked units to grab distracted drivers.

More than one way to skin a cat and all.

[TC215]

It’s been over 8 years since I’ve had a marked car or worn a uniform. I’ve stopped many cars in my unmarked wearing blue jeans and a T-shirt, but we wear our raid vests. Normally, if we’re stoping someone, its for an interdiction or pre-textual stop, and all the bad guys know what’s up when the bearded-police are stopping them.

For us to do a “normal” traffic stop, it would have to be for something pretty serious, but I’ve never had anyone not stop for me (because they thought I was an impersonator) or question who I was during the stop.

[jlw]

While attending a class in Georgia I was driving my unmarked and one of the guys from Georgia asked why I had a radar. I told him to write tickets! LOL. He told me that in Georgia local municipalities couldn’t stop anyone on an unmarked vehicle unless it was a serious felony...otherwise the had to get a marked unit to stop a car. However, he stated that GSP could have unmarked...? I couldn’t understand why a state agency could and a local agency couldn’t...politics?



That officer didn't understand the law. There is absolutely nothing in GA giving the GSP the authority to make stops in an unmarked car but not municipalities. The applicable code section is published in the OP.

The only difference is this:

https://thatweemsguy.com/2010/09/20/notes-on-speed-detection/

[KeeFus]

That officer didn't understand the law. There is absolutely nothing in GA giving the GSP the authority to make stops in an unmarked car but not municipalities. The applicable code section is published in the OP.

The only difference is this:

https://thatweemsguy.com/2010/09/20/notes-on-speed-detection/

So why will the GA legislature not allow LE agencies to use unmarked vehicles? I don’t get it. Blue light bandit from way back? Did Lester Maddox not like LE?

Locally, NCSHP has a fleet of unmarked vehicles used for speed enforcement. We have several as do just about every jurisdiction in NC. Wake county (Raleigh) even had a corvette for speed enforcement, among other things.

[Baldanders]

Just an ignorant, softass civvie mouthing off here, but I assume all Dodge Challengers are LEO until proven otherwise, just as I assumed all crown vics were back in the 80s.


The 300hp version of the Focus would be a heck of an LEO stealthmobile.

[jlw]

So why will the GA legislature not allow LE agencies to use unmarked vehicles? I don’t get it. Blue light bandit from way back? Did Lester Maddox not like LE?

Locally, NCSHP has a fleet of unmarked vehicles used for speed enforcement. We have several as do just about every jurisdiction in NC. Wake county (Raleigh) even had a corvette for speed enforcement, among other things.

It's government. It doesn't have to make sense.

[Dr. No]

I have a challenge:

We will have three cars: a "ghost" marked police car, a marked police car (with light bar in the windshield), and an unmarked police car.

You will drive on the roadway and one of these cars will activate their lights and sirens behind you. You must figure out which car it is before the Officer exits the vehicle.

I predict an accuracy rate of 33%.

What type of paint used on the side of the car is irrelevant. Very few departments have anything facing forward identifying them as police vehicles, aside from their lights. I've seen cars that have "POLICE" in backwards letters at the top of the windshield....but it is impossible to see at night due to the brightness of the emergency lights.


If you get stopped by a vehicle and you feel something is weird, call 911. Dispatch will be able to verify the stop. The Officer, when he approaches, should have a badge visible and identify himself and his department in the initial contact. "I'm Officer Jones from the Nifty Police Department. You were stopped for XYZ. May I have your driver's license and insurance, please". He may or may not be in full uniform, depending on his assignment. Fugitive hunters, for instance, often will be in "plain" clothes so they can blend in when they're doing their jobs. When they take official action, they should have something identifying themselves as officials visible.

[txdpd]

Our biggest problem with police impersonator’s vehicles are police agencies that let their old vehicles go to auction without removing the lights and controllers, and cutting the wiring harnesses. It’s not that impersonators’ cars look like police cars, it’s that their cars are police cars.

We've had problems with serial rapist posing as cops over the years. If they are in cars it's always been equipped police vehicles bought from auction.

[Dr. No]

Our biggest problem with police impersonator’s vehicles are police agencies that let their old vehicles go to auction without removing the lights and controllers, and cutting the wiring harnesses. It’s not that impersonators’ cars look like police cars, it’s that their cars are police cars.

We've had problems with serial rapist posing as cops over the years. If they are in cars it's always been equipped police vehicles bought from auction.

Agreed, especially since the crown vic is still the universal "cop car". We've seen some dumb ones - had one kid who was using an app on his iphone that blinked blue and red, and he would just hold it up in his windshield. Had another guy with construction-like yellow and red lights that was pulling people over in a police t-shirt, no badge, and an uncle mike's holster. I can see where people who see cops once a year might doubt, but for those of us in the business it's glaringly obvious they're not legit.

PS: In Texas, ask the Officer to see his department ID. It will have their picture, badge of office, title, and a "TCOLE PID" number on it, usually on the back. They should be carrying it.

[Horseman]

Everyone's operating under the assumption that "ghost-lettering" and all the other cool-guy cop-car stuff discussed here has a stack of well-thought-out reasons attached to it.

Having observed various law enforcement administrators up close for a couple of decades, I'm pretty sure a lot of places went with these marking schemes because Chief Bob or Sheriff Bill, from the next county or town over got one, and damn, does it look cool. Therefore, they need some just like it.

[Baldanders]

Local Sheriff's department here has a habit of using unmarked cars to sit at problematic intersections to....prevent accidents, catch speeders unaware? I'm not sure of the rationale, but we all know what the unmarked cars look like now.

[BehindBlueI's]

Just an ignorant, softass civvie mouthing off here, but I assume all Dodge Challengers are LEO until proven otherwise, just as I assumed all crown vics were back in the 80s.


The 300hp version of the Focus would be a heck of an LEO stealthmobile.

I figure you mean Chargers. Around here if it's got a spoiler, it's almost certainly not an LE car. If I'm curious if it's a pace car or not, I look at the plate before passing. Unmarked cars often still have police plates, and if not there's a sorta-secret way to tell if it's a gov't registered car. When I was in Investigations I had an unmarked but it had a police plate and a spot light, plus the LEDs mounted on the fenders, visible in the windows, etc. Stevie Wonder could see it was a police car. People would still be retarded around me in traffic.

I took the family on a day trip today and saw ISP snagging folks near a rest stop with an unmarked gray Charger. It lights up like a damn UFO, any impersonator using one is going to have to have a decent budget for lights. Then on the way back traffic went from the normal 10 over to the speed limit. Some tinted out black Crown Vic with antennas in the slow lane. I knew it wasn't a police car because nobody here runs all those antennas any more. Saw the plate, knew it wasn't a pace car, and got back to the "real" speed limit.

[BehindBlueI's]

Everyone's operating under the assumption that "ghost-lettering" and all the other cool-guy cop-car stuff discussed here has a stack of well-thought-out reasons attached to it.

I think very few of us are laboring under that assumption. Particularly the cops. We've worked for our bosses for awhile, you know.

[11B10]

Has not been my experience. Plenty of HUA drivers don't notice me until long after I'd have ticketed them if I cared to.
Buy


Yup.



You can do both. Like it or not, LE needs to be a bit sexy if you want to recruit. I don't think anybody in LE is experiencing an increase in recruiting.

Anyway, I don't see the big deal for traffic enforcement, particularly highway patrol. Impersonators aren't pulling people over during rush hour or in construction zones. At night in a more rural area? Different considerations. Our state police have used Mustangs, white trucks that look like DOT trucks for construction zone enforcement, and even ridden in the cab of tractor-trailers and radioed marked units. It's never been an issue, and it's certainly not new here. Need a cop? In the day and age of cell phones I'm having a hard time thinking the best plan is to drive around looking for a marked car.

Not something I have strong feelings about either way. Now sedan vs SUV...that's a more interesting question we're going to have to answer now that Ford's done with the Interceptor.


BBI, I recently drove a "totally marked" Interceptor for over an hour to be delivered after some work had been done. The first thing that was hard to believe was how tight that interior is! And I had civilian clothing on - no belt, gear, gun, etc. I tried to imagine how it would be to get in and out quickly, in your normal gear. The second thing that became very obvious was the attention I was getting, especially through the city! For the very first time, I felt what you must feel when on patrol. The city I was driving in is not exactly a friendly one for LEO's. I remembered recent shootings directed at Police vehicles and officers and thought: I could very easily get shot at today! I humbly offer my most sincere thanks for what you all do every day.

[PearTree]

BBI, I recently drove a "totally marked" Interceptor for over an hour to be delivered after some work had been done. The first thing that was hard to believe was how tight that interior is! And I had civilian clothing on - no belt, gear, gun, etc. I tried to imagine how it would be to get in and out quickly, in your normal gear. The second thing that became very obvious was the attention I was getting, especially through the city! For the very first time, I felt what you must feel when on patrol. The city I was driving in is not exactly a friendly one for LEO's. I remembered recent shootings directed at Police vehicles and officers and thought: I could very easily get shot at today! I humbly offer my most sincere thanks for what you all do every day.The whole saying living in a fish bowl applies to uniformed Leo's. And yes the interiors are tiny and suck with gear on in the interceptor. Still better than a impala though.

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[Sherman A. House DDS]

I don’t like lowpro cars for general patrol. Crime suppression is another story.

This happened here:

https://www.theleafchronicle.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/30/hopkinsville-police-officer-shot-timeline-events-killing-phillip-meacham/472874002/


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[Baldanders]

I figure you mean Chargers. Around here if it's got a spoiler, it's almost certainly not an LE car. If I'm curious if it's a pace car or not, I look at the plate before passing. Unmarked cars often still have police plates, and if not there's a sorta-secret way to tell if it's a gov't registered car. When I was in Investigations I had an unmarked but it had a police plate and a spot light, plus the LEDs mounted on the fenders, visible in the windows, etc. Stevie Wonder could see it was a police car. People would still be retarded around me in traffic.

I took the family on a day trip today and saw ISP snagging folks near a rest stop with an unmarked gray Charger. It lights up like a damn UFO, any impersonator using one is going to have to have a decent budget for lights. Then on the way back traffic went from the normal 10 over to the speed limit. Some tinted out black Crown Vic with antennas in the slow lane. I knew it wasn't a police car because nobody here runs all those antennas any more. Saw the plate, knew it wasn't a pace car, and got back to the "real" speed limit.

Whoops. You are correct.

[Baldanders]

I think very few of us are laboring under that assumption. Particularly the cops. We've worked for our bosses for awhile, you know.

Being a schoolteacher, when your govt job actually gives you well thought out equipment/software selection, I figure THAT'S the fluke.

I call it the "well proportioned blonde selling to lonely middle-aged men" effect.

[orionz06]

I don’t like lowpro cars for general patrol. Crime suppression is another story.

This happened here:

https://www.theleafchronicle.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/30/hopkinsville-police-officer-shot-timeline-events-killing-phillip-meacham/472874002/


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Those are two different tasks with two different sets of tools, I'd think. If we're nabbing speeders and people fucking off on their phones sit in the woods with a scope and radio a marked car up the road. Both instances where I was caught speeding were setups like this.

[ragnar_d]

FHP just recently started running blacked out/ghosted Chargers (https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/fhp-sending-message-with-new-ghost-squad-cars/444465534). Back in the early 2000's, they were running hot rod Marauders with no markings at all for aggressive driving enforcement (RUMINT was that those cars were bankrolled by the insurance companies). I've also seen all sorts of Fusions, Altimas, Tundras, Equinoxes, and Camrys all lit up doing traffic control or sitting at construction zones. If I were worried about impersonators, it would likely be from a wannabe security guard driving a clapped out Crown Vic, Expedition, or Tahoe. They seem to rival the volunteer firefighters from back home as far as who can put the most lights on their POV.

But back to the topic at hand, I'm not gonna lie . . . the ghost marked cars do look pretty slick, and there's no doubt that they're FHP cars from a mile away.
29818


Wait, you actually pull over distracted drivers?

That would be amazing if that shit actually happened around here.
Down here, you could have 100 FHP troopers lined up on the turnpike in Broward/Dade during rush hour and their printers/ticket books would be out of paper/toner in 15 minutes. More than once I've had someone behind me for a mile and their eyes never came up from their phone . . . . and I never saw their hands never touch the wheel either. Then again, I can't expect too much when I almost got creamed in a traffic snarl by a local LEO whose eyes were on his phone and not the road. Welcome to Florida, Mad Max rules are in effect. *shrugs*

[Dr. No]

I don’t like lowpro cars for general patrol. Crime suppression is another story.

This happened here:

https://www.theleafchronicle.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/30/hopkinsville-police-officer-shot-timeline-events-killing-phillip-meacham/472874002/


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This story has absolutely nothing to do with law enforcement using marked, unmarked, or "less than marked" vehicles. It sounds like the Officer who got pulled over figured out that the person who stopped him was a poser and attempted to take him into custody off duty without his normal equipment, which resulted in a gunfight that he lost. Very sad.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

This story has absolutely nothing to do with law enforcement using marked, unmarked, or "less than marked" vehicles. It sounds like the Officer who got pulled over figured out that the person who stopped him was a poser and attempted to take him into custody off duty without his normal equipment, which resulted in a gunfight that he lost. Very sad.

I disagree.

Ambiguously marked LE vehicles for general patrol use isn’t a good idea. They should be visible, as police, for a number of reasons.

Crime suppression, where the officers are going after a very specific target in an undercover vehicle, is a whole other story.


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[Lon]

Traffic enforcement in unmarked cars = no can do if one of your PRIMARY duties is traffic enforcement. Your case will get tossed.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Media/Newsletters/Law-Enforcement-Bulletin/August-2013/Proper-Protocol-State-of-Ohio-v-Schneller

And I’m ok with that.

[Dr. No]

I disagree.

Ambiguously marked LE vehicles for general patrol use isn’t a good idea. They should be visible, as police, for a number of reasons.

Crime suppression, where the officers are going after a very specific target in an undercover vehicle, is a whole other story.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYour opinion is your own, but citing this situation as fact to back that opinion is invalid. This situation has nothing to do with the markings on the vehicle, and had everything to do with a police imposter who became violent when confronted.

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[Sherman A. House DDS]

Traffic enforcement in unmarked cars = no can do if one of your PRIMARY duties is traffic enforcement. Your case will get tossed.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Media/Newsletters/Law-Enforcement-Bulletin/August-2013/Proper-Protocol-State-of-Ohio-v-Schneller

And I’m ok with that.

I’ve heard through the break room gossip that there is a dust up in WA state along similar lines.

My department recently purchased new Dodge Durangos. The lights are all low pro, but they are clearly marked front and back. It doesn’t matter though...people still text in front of you, cross the centerline carelessly due to inattention. But tweakers, they can spot it 2.5 miles away.


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[Sherman A. House DDS]

Your opinion is your own, but citing this situation as fact to back that opinion is invalid. This situation has nothing to do with the markings on the vehicle, and had everything to do with a police imposter who became violent when confronted.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I have a right to state my educated opinion, same as you. Did the perpetrator in the incident I cited drive a MARKED POLICE car?

SPOILER ALERT...he didn’t.


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[Erick Gelhaus]

I did a couple multi-year stints on our gang enforcement team where we drove un-marked Crown Vics - that also had the whole set of accessories (A pillar spot lights, red/blue lights in the front & rear windows/mirror housings, antenna farm on the roof & trunk). Early on we drove all white cars, then it was all black, and finally all black Explorers. There was discussion about ghost marking several years ago but it did not grow legs. A local PDs street crimes unit and gang unit both had the same un-marked cars.

Our job was to suppress gang violence and put gang participants in jail, prison. As a general rule, we avoided the vast majority of day-in/day-out patrol stuff. However because we were in un-marked rides we saw some amazingly bad, dangerous driving. I wrote move moving violations in that assignment than in patrol assignments.

As Doc House mentioned, regular patrol cars should be very obviously marked especially those working traffic. Non-traffic special enforcement units may well have justification for un-marked rides.

[Dr. No]

I have a right to state my educated opinion, same as you. Did the perpetrator in the incident I cited drive a MARKED POLICE car?

SPOILER ALERT...he didn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYes, as I stated your opinion is your own. How you interpreted that as me saying you are not allowed to have one confuses me.

Did the article say what kind of vehicle the suspect was driving at all? It does not. It only mentions that he stole a white pickup after the incident. One could infer that since he was not an officer it was unmarked, but those are not the facts as are presented in this extremely brief news article.

I drive an unmarked car and hunt fugitives for a living. I routinely make traffic stops and affect arrests. As yet I have never had someone question my position as an officer. As a matter of fact, I got into numerous pursuits in a fully marked unit when I worked patrol in which the suspects (at night) claimed they ran because they "didn't know I was the police". When I laughed at them and said the red and blues that can be seen on the moon are a small clue, they had no answer, because they were horrible liars.

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[Hambo]

Down here, you could have 100 FHP troopers lined up on the turnpike in Broward/Dade during rush hour and their printers/ticket books would be out of paper/toner in 15 minutes. More than once I've had someone behind me for a mile and their eyes never came up from their phone . . . . and I never saw their hands never touch the wheel either. Then again, I can't expect too much when I almost got creamed in a traffic snarl by a local LEO whose eyes were on his phone and not the road. Welcome to Florida, Mad Max rules are in effect. *shrugs*

I've seen FHP with a laser on the overpass and 10+ cars waiting to round 'em up, and you're right: it doesn't matter. When Floridians see a cruiser with a car pulled over, their instinctive thought is, "Woohoo! Time to really get on the gas because I can't get a ticket!"

[ragnar_d]

I've seen FHP with a laser on the overpass and 10+ cars waiting to round 'em up, and you're right: it doesn't matter. When Floridians see a cruiser with a car pulled over, their instinctive thought is, "Woohoo! Time to really get on the gas because I can't get a ticket!"
Yup. I originally thought Orlando drivers were crazy . . . then I came to SFL. Ghost marked cars, unmarked cars, fully marked cars . . . doesn't matter. Hell, they could have Predator drones up lobbing hellfires and most people down here would go, "They don't have enough missiles for all of us!"

[mark7]

This language was added to Pennsylvania's fleeing/eluding statute:


It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that the pursuing police officer’s vehicle was not clearly identifiable by its markings or, if unmarked, was not occupied by a police officer who was in uniform and displaying a badge or other sign of authority.

(2) It is a defense to prosecution under this section if the defendant can show by a preponderance of the evidence that the failure to stop immediately for a police officer’s vehicle was based upon a good faith concern for personal safety. In determining whether the defendant has met this burden, the court may consider the following factors:

(i) The time and location of the event.

(ii) The type of police vehicle used by the police officer.

(iii) The defendant’s conduct while being followed by the police officer.

(iv) Whether the defendant stopped at the first available reasonably lighted or populated area.

(v) Any other factor considered relevant by the court.

I dive a stealth marked Tahoe every night on midnighters for the past four years, I've never had anyone question whether I was the pol lice.

[Horseman]

I think very few of us are laboring under that assumption. Particularly the cops. We've worked for our bosses for awhile, you know.

Right? :)


Now if we could just figure some magic way to make buying a lot of practice ammo for the troops and sending them to good training as the "Cool Thing the Department Next Door is Doing", in the bosses' eyes.

[HeavyDuty]

This language was added to Pennsylvania's fleeing/eluding statute:



I dive a stealth marked Tahoe every night on midnighters for the past four years, I've never had anyone question whether I was the pol lice.

Out of curiousity since you’re on mids - is the stealth lettering reflective?

[Larry Sellers]

CT state police runs 99% unmarked cruisers. Chargers, challengers and the new ford whatever cars and SUVs. CT dmv police do the same as well. We’ve got bomb techs, K9 and swat that run around in unmarked vehicles as well.

I’ve never known them to have marked vehicles. The town I live in has been purchasing black vehicles with ghost lettering, not quite sure how I feel
About it.


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[HCM]

FHP just recently started running blacked out/ghosted Chargers (https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/fhp-sending-message-with-new-ghost-squad-cars/444465534). Back in the early 2000's, they were running hot rod Marauders with no markings at all for aggressive driving enforcement (RUMINT was that those cars were bankrolled by the insurance companies). I've also seen all sorts of Fusions, Altimas, Tundras, Equinoxes, and Camrys all lit up doing traffic control or sitting at construction zones. If I were worried about impersonators, it would likely be from a wannabe security guard driving a clapped out Crown Vic, Expedition, or Tahoe. They seem to rival the volunteer firefighters from back home as far as who can put the most lights on their POV.

But back to the topic at hand, I'm not gonna lie . . . the ghost marked cars do look pretty slick, and there's no doubt that they're FHP cars from a mile away.
29818


Down here, you could have 100 FHP troopers lined up on the turnpike in Broward/Dade during rush hour and their printers/ticket books would be out of paper/toner in 15 minutes. More than once I've had someone behind me for a mile and their eyes never came up from their phone . . . . and I never saw their hands never touch the wheel either. Then again, I can't expect too much when I almost got creamed in a traffic snarl by a local LEO whose eyes were on his phone and not the road. Welcome to Florida, Mad Max rules are in effect. *shrugs*

The non standard vehicles you are referring to are most likely the officers personal vehicles which they have equipped with lights and magnetic stick on “Police” markings specifically for working off duty jobs like road construction.

I can’t speak to Florida but it’s common here in TX.

[Lon]

The non standard vehicles you are referring to are most likely the officers personal vehicles which they have equipped with lights and magnetic stick on “Police” markings specifically for working off duty jobs like road construction.

I can’t speak to Florida but it’s common here in TX.


Huh. Didn’t know that was a thing. No bueno here. Dont know any agencies that allow that or even if it’s legal.

[HCM]

Huh. Didn’t know that was a thing. No bueno here. Dont know any agencies that allow that or even if it’s legal.

It’s legal in TX. It’s a State / regional thing. You mostly see it with guys working off duty gigs at road construction or church traffic details. You also see guys with similarly equipped motorcycles doing funeral escorts.

Guys make good money on off duty jobs. Good enough that there have been some ex/fired/ no longer certified cops arrested for impersonation because they still had a uniform and they though $35 an hour cash was worth the risk.

[rob_s]

The non standard vehicles you are referring to are most likely the officers personal vehicles which they have equipped with lights and magnetic stick on “Police” markings specifically for working off duty jobs like road construction.

I can’t speak to Florida but it’s common here in TX.

I can’t see that being the case with FHP. Folks from other states typically have trouble understanding the FHP. They are an odd bunch. They are not like state police in other states.

[KeeFus]

It’s legal in TX. It’s a State / regional thing. You mostly see it with guys working off duty gigs at road construction or church traffic details. You also see guys with similarly equipped motorcycles doing funeral escorts.

Guys make good money on off duty jobs. Good enough that there have been some ex/fired/ no longer certified cops arrested for impersonation because they still had a uniform and they though $35 an hour cash was worth the risk.

That is NOT the case in NC. When working off-duty jobs we just use our assigned vehicles. Some departments make you reimburse them for the use of the car for the job...others don't.

If my vehicle didn't have the spotlight on the A-post it would look like a normal 2006 charger, right down to the normal license plate. The lights are not easily seen.

[Hambo]

The non standard vehicles you are referring to are most likely the officers personal vehicles which they have equipped with lights and magnetic stick on “Police” markings specifically for working off duty jobs like road construction.

Most FL LEOs don't even drive their own car to work. Take home cars are the thing down here.

[HCM]

Most FL LEOs don't even drive their own car to work. Take home cars are the thing down here.

Not here but again, all policing is regional. I haven’t seen the “ make your POV a police car” thing anywhere other than Texas.

[TGS]

Not here but again, all policing is regional. I haven’t seen the “ make your POV a police car” thing anywhere other than Texas.

What happens to their insurance while performing LE work with a personal vehicle?

[HCM]

What happens to their insurance while performing LE work with a personal vehicle?

They are more accurately described as performing security work. Like any other side business I guess.

[BehindBlueI's]

Huh. Didn’t know that was a thing. No bueno here. Dont know any agencies that allow that or even if it’s legal.

It's legal here, there's no requirement for an emergency vehicle to be gov't owned. I don't know anyone other than a reserves-only department where anyone has bought a car for their "on duty" ride. Special deputies and reserves often buy a CVPI and dress it up to do construction zone details, etc. Most are just flashing rear reds/yellows, which aren't controlled here. No forward facing flashers other than white, no rear flashers other than red/yellow and there's nothing special required. Forward facing red is reserved for emergency vehicles, blue can also be used by volunteer firefighters in their personal cars, and green for volunteer EMTs in their personal vehicles. Why we need to distinguish between EMTs and FFs to that level, I've no idea.

Funeral escorts used to be able to use blue/red, but that was changed awhile back. I forget what they are limited to now.

Oh, and we have take homes. I can pay a set fee and use the car for off duty if I want. I don't, because I don't work any part time and I don't use my car for personal use off duty. I'd rather buy my gas then deal with non-emergency police stuff off duty or put my family in a marked car.

[Lon]

Learn something every day.

I know volunteer firefighters in Oh can put lights in their vehicles. I did when I was one years ago. But couldn’t find anything about LE doing it.

[Coyotesfan97]

Arizona just changed our Unlawful flight law to include unmarked cars with a couple stipulations. Our traffic guys have low profile Tahoe’s with semi ghost lettering. It’s reflective.

28-622.01. Unlawful flight from pursuing law enforcement vehicle; violation; classification; marked and unmarked vehicles

A driver of a motor vehicle who wilfully flees or attempts to elude a pursuing official law enforcement vehicle is guilty of a class 5 felony if the law enforcement vehicle is either:

1. Being operated in the manner described in section 28-624, subsection C and is appropriately marked to show that it is an official law enforcement vehicle.

2. Unmarked and either of the following applies:

(a) The driver admits to knowing that the vehicle was an official law enforcement vehicle.

(b) Evidence shows that the driver knew that the vehicle was an official law enforcement vehicle.

[mark7]

Out of curiousity since you’re on mids - is the stealth lettering reflective?

Yes, every inch reflective. Black on black, add light: bright gold lettering/striping.

[ragnar_d]

Most FL LEOs don't even drive their own car to work. Take home cars are the thing down here.
Yup. There's cars for 3-4 different agencies parked in my neighborhood right now, was the same thing when I lived in Orange County FL.


The non standard vehicles you are referring to are most likely the officers personal vehicles which they have equipped with lights and magnetic stick on “Police” markings specifically for working off duty jobs like road construction.

I can’t speak to Florida but it’s common here in TX.
I've never seen an FHP Trooper in anything but a very fleet looking Charger/CVPI/Explorer/Tahoe. The local guys, who knows. There is either a local officer or off duty MDPD directing traffic outside an ATT depot on one street I drive on a somewhat regular basis going to work. Dude was always in a mid 2000's Camry or a late model GMC Terrain with a flip down visor red/blue and led flashers in the headlights/taillights. Guess that might be the case that it's his POV since I doubt many local PDs have a 12 year old base Camry in their fleet, but who knows.


Funeral escorts used to be able to use blue/red, but that was changed awhile back. I forget what they are limited to now.
Funeral escorts down here seem to be private security companies with amber/green flashers that, save for being amber/green instead of red/blue, could damn near be confused for legit LEO rigs (down to the motor "officers"). Seemed weird to me, but my Midwestern sensibilities and reckonings haven't quite yet adapted to these parts.

[John Hearne]

It depends on what you're trying to do. If you think the cops are white knights who need a matching steed and bad guys are utterly stupid but basically honest then expecting uniform LE to work out of marked cars with light bars on top is probably reasonable. If you accept the fact that some subterfuge may be necessary to catch bad guys (and just plain idiots) then something other than a marked car with light bar on top is probably necessary.

This isn't the 1980's when you can expect someone with a "Kojak" light on the dash to appear to be a legit cop. The state of emergency lighting is such that a vehicle can have a very effective, and clearly discernible set of lights without them being externally visible. We're not talking about one or two flashing lights but an entire package that is just as effective as a rooftop bar. A "slick top" car is marked normally but the lights are inside the vehicle. These vehicles tend to be better at traffic enforcement depending on how unique their color(s) are. Besides being better at traffic enforcement, slick tops are actually safer (lower accident rate) than vehicles with roof top lightbars and get better gas mileage.

Whether we like it or not, certain problems can't be solved by marked patrol cars. There's pretty clear indications from NHTSA that unmarked cars are the preferred tool for dealing with reckless and distracted driving. My work is about 80% traffic related. We'd receive repeated complaints of reckless driving in a particular area and we'd increase patrol (with marked cars and light bars) in the area. We never found anyone driving reckless for some reason. Our supervisors drive unmarked cars. Not super stealthy with well hidden lights but basically slick tops without markings. When we transferred a supervisor's car to my area with the intentions of marking it (and it takes months to get decals) that officer who drove that vehicle worked traffic in an unmarked Tahoe. All of a sudden, this guy was writing a lot of tickets for reckless speeds, following too closely, failing to maintain lane, etc. I ran the stats and the increase in reckless and distracted driving increased by hundreds of percent.

Based on this, we've started to roll out dedicated unmarked vehicles for traffic enforcement. The most recent acquisition is a Dodge police package pickup. The lights are hidden and it has a non-government tag, it even has a big LED off-road light on the front - with red and blue LEDs. If it's not being used by the person to whom its assigned, anyone can use it and work traffic enforcement. I've run this truck and I can say with 100% certainty that I made enforcement contacts that I would not have made in any other vehicle. Those people who you yell at "that guy needs a ticket or that guy needs to go to jail" those are the unsafe, rude, reckless people that you snag in unmarked vehicles.

As mitigation, when the lights come on, the pickup is clearly an emergency vehicle - internal lightbar, LEDs on mirrors, four LEDs in the off-road lights, intersection lights, flashing headlights, etc. The back is marked equally well with a full interior lightbar, traffic advisor, etc. We do require that the officer using the vehicle be in uniform.

The sad reality is that bad/dangerous driving is the greatest source of danger for most of us. Crime tends to be focused in certain areas (not saying that you can't find its presence everywhere) but everyone gets killed and maimed in traffic crashes. Years of declines in traffic fatalities have stalled out (probably with the rise of the smart phones and distracted driving) and bicycle and pedestrian fatalities are increasing. Until we all have self-driving cars (the clear future) someone is going to have to make sure that the idiots and the reckless don't hurt/kill someone and unmarked vehicles have a clear place in that process.

[0331king]

I have a right to state my educated opinion, same as you. Did the perpetrator in the incident I cited drive a MARKED POLICE car?

SPOILER ALERT...he didn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here’s the problem with that article....... It’s wrong.

Decoursey was not a police impersonator. He was a wanted felon who had installed some ratty blue lights to help him run from the police if the need ever arose.

He didn’t pull Phillip over. The POS install shorted out and the lights activated briefly and Phillip, who was off duty, just happened to see it.

He contacted the PD and kept eyes on the vehicle until a marked unit arrived. Together he and the on duty made contact although Phillip was unarmed. On duty makes contact with multiples in a vehicle. Phillip approaches Decoursey who is under a car hood jacking with the lights. Decoursey shoots Phillip and flees.

[msstate56]

Let’s just call it what it is- nobody wants to get a ticket, and some people think the police have to “play fair” with conspicuous vehicles so they get a “fair chance.” I drive an unmarked unit. I don’t do regular traffic enforcement, but I’ve had plenty of people blow past me at 40+ over the limit, nearly run me off the road illegally passing, tailgate me so close I could tell you what brand phone case they are currently holding, and drag race drunk. None of which they would do next to a marked unit. But I guess it wasn’t “fair” because my vehicle is unmarked.

[Jeff22]

This turned out to be a surprisingly contentious topic . . . . It's interesting how different law and custom are from state to state on different issues.

I've been the police since 1981. Generally speaking, around here, normal patrol units drive marked cars, the supervisors drive unmarked cars and the traffic unit drives unmarked cars.

At one place I work, the Chief doesn't like lightbars for some reason so the vehicles patrol has (two marked Chevy Tahoes and two unmarked Ford Interceptors) have the emergency lights mounted in the windshield. I personally would rather have lightbars on the marked cars, but I was not consulted on the matter.

[orionz06]

Let’s just call it what it is- nobody wants to get a ticket, and some people think the police have to “play fair” with conspicuous vehicles so they get a “fair chance.” I drive an unmarked unit. I don’t do regular traffic enforcement, but I’ve had plenty of people blow past me at 40+ over the limit, nearly run me off the road illegally passing, tailgate me so close I could tell you what brand phone case they are currently holding, and drag race drunk. None of which they would do next to a marked unit. But I guess it wasn’t “fair” because my vehicle is unmarked.

Are you basing that on the discussion you've seen here?

[John Hearne]

The other issue is a bias founded in your exposure to traffic crashes. The general population speeds, drives distracted, drives drunk, follows too closely, etc. and rarely sees any negative outcomes from these behaviors. Unless they witness the crash, they just see the aftermath and are able to rationalize what happened. Everyone thinks they are an above average driver and that horrible carnage on the side of the road would never be them.

Cops are the complete opposite. They see almost every crash, and certainly the bad ones. I posted some comments elsewhere on-line and the comments from the cops were telling. Everyone could perfectly describe the smells associated with a serious crash and one guy even said he smells it when he sees a crash picture. When you see something again and again, that there is no good reason for, you have a desire to stop or reduce it. Cops patience for asshat driving is pretty minimal because they have an biased view of the actual results of the asshat driving.

It's not sexy but speeding continues to be a significant problem. By controlling speed, you can give drivers more time to respond/react/avoid a crash AND you control the intensity of the crash. Europe has done an impressive job of reducing their traffic fatalities by reducing speeding violations. How was this done - with automatic speed enforcements AKA photo RADAR. Photo RADAR has bombed in the U.S. for mostly cultural reasons. Photo RADAR is now limited to special applications such as school zones. Guess what happens to speeds in front of schools with photo RADAR - yep they quickly drop to match the posted limit. If we, as a culture, don't want photo RADAR and we're not willing to accept a bunch of unnecessary deaths and maimings then something other than white knight enforcement is probably going to be needed.

[msstate56]

Are you basing that on the discussion you've seen here?

I’m basing that on seeing this topic come up numerous times over the years in various places, including here. It’s not like unmarked or ghost letters are anything new. Plus, if it’s after dark you can’t tell what, if any, markings are on the car trying to pull you over. I’ve never had anyone think I wasn’t a real police officer when I pulled them over. But most unmarked vehicles have plenty of lights. I probably wouldn’t stop for a vehicle with one little blue light on the dash either. But this topic wasn’t started about police impersonators. I’ve also never gotten mad when someone slowed down, and slowly drove to a lighted public spot to pull over.

[HCountyGuy]

Let’s just call it what it is- nobody wants to get a ticket, and some people think the police have to “play fair” with conspicuous vehicles so they get a “fair chance.” I drive an unmarked unit. I don’t do regular traffic enforcement, but I’ve had plenty of people blow past me at 40+ over the limit, nearly run me off the road illegally passing, tailgate me so close I could tell you what brand phone case they are currently holding, and drag race drunk. None of which they would do next to a marked unit. But I guess it wasn’t “fair” because my vehicle is unmarked.

That’s not the case at all.

I understand the need for subterfuge because most people straighten up when they know someone of authority is watching. It’s why undercover work is a thing. There are just some better ways to go about it in certain practices because of the aforementioned problem with impersonators.

Several members have relayed experiences to the effect of “nobody questioned me when I stopped them in an unmarked”. That’s a bit of a double-edged sword because one day they might get pulled over by an imposter with nefarious intentions. It’s happened on my home turf a bit more than I’m comfortable with, even in broad daylight.

[msstate56]

That’s not the case at all.

I understand the need for subterfuge because most people straighten up when they know someone of authority is watching. It’s why undercover work is a thing. There are just some better ways to go about it in certain practices because of the aforementioned problem with impersonators.

Several members have relayed experiences to the effect of “nobody questioned me when I stopped them in an unmarked”. That’s a bit of a double-edged sword because one day they might get pulled over by an imposter with nefarious intentions. It’s happened on my home turf a bit more than I’m comfortable with, even in broad daylight.

So you’re saying that thousands of people should be restricted from a valid piece of equipment because one or two might use it illegally? Where have I heard that argument?

I’ve been involved in police impostor vehicle cases, and none had what anyone would consider “adequate” lighting. They almost all have just one blue light, never full interior light bars, wig wags, corner strobes, etc. That’s why nobody questions my vehicle. It seems there is a theme of “only fully marked, lightbar on roof, officer in traditional polyester, complete with hat and whistle should be allowed to pull me over” floating around.

In your opinion- what would be a better way to catch reckless, aggressive drivers that otherwise wouldn’t drive like that around a marked unit?

[HCountyGuy]

So you’re saying that thousands of people should be restricted from a valid piece of equipment because one or two might use it illegally? Where have I heard that argument?

I’ve been involved in police impostor vehicle cases, and none had what anyone would consider “adequate” lighting. They almost all have just one blue light, never full interior light bars, wig wags, corner strobes, etc. That’s why nobody questions my vehicle. It seems there is a theme of “only fully marked, lightbar on roof, officer in traditional polyester, complete with hat and whistle should be allowed to pull me over” floating around.

In your opinion- what would be a better way to catch reckless, aggressive drivers that otherwise wouldn’t drive like that around a marked unit?

John Q Public generally isn’t going to know that more lights has some correlation to a higher probability the person pulling you over isn’t a fake. They see blue lights, they pull over.

There’s been a few proven examples provided on how to catch these types of drivers utilizing other methods of subterfuge.

Outside of special circumstances, yes I think traffic stops should be conducted by marked units. No, it’s not because I’ve been pulled over because the only ticket I’ve ever had was going through a speed trap town nearly 8 years ago. So it’s not like I’ve got a chapped ass about it, which seems to be what you’re convinced of.

[Coyotesfan97]

I drive a fully marked black and white Chevy Tahoe with a light bar on top and very visible deck lights on the rear deck. I constantly have people pass me doing 80+ on the freeway. And if I’m on the freeway I’m doing 5-10 over the limit. Do they not see me (usually) or do they think city cop can’t or won’t pull them over.

You’ve unlocked an achievement because you got a K9 guy to do traffic enforcement.

[Nephrology]

The other issue is a bias founded in your exposure to traffic crashes. The general population speeds, drives distracted, drives drunk, follows too closely, etc. and rarely sees any negative outcomes from these behaviors. Unless they witness the crash, they just see the aftermath and are able to rationalize what happened. Everyone thinks they are an above average driver and that horrible carnage on the side of the road would never be them.

As someone who is a formerly aggressive driver, and now merely 'spirited', I attribute that change entirely to being rear ended 3x in 3 years, most recently resulting in a total loss of my car, and also the hundreds of hours I've spent in the ED in the same timeframe. First time I ever saw someone's face get de-gloved from playing Fast and Furious : Colfax Edition was pretty memorable.

[Cheap Shot]

This turned out to be a surprisingly contentious topic . . . . It's interesting how different law and custom are from state to state on different issues.

I've been the police since 1981. Generally speaking, around here, normal patrol units drive marked cars, the supervisors drive unmarked cars and the traffic unit drives unmarked cars.

At one place I work, the Chief doesn't like lightbars for some reason so the vehicles patrol has (two marked Chevy Tahoes and two unmarked Ford Interceptors) have the emergency lights mounted in the windshield. I personally would rather have lightbars on the marked cars, but I was not consulted on the matter.

This thread scares the shit out of me and definitely shows differences between states. I'm not LEO, I live in the closest thing to Andy Griffith Mayberry that probably exists in the modern U.S.. Yet, its not unusual for LEO impersonators to jack cars or forceably enter homes and make the papers. Last story that made the news was FBI impersonators. I had no idea there was such a thing as "ghost" LEO cars. Any idiot with a snow plow on a pick up, every garbage truck, any utility vehicle where I live has lights on top.

I'll gladly comply with any marked, recognizable patrol car. Prior to reading about ghost cars, flashing lights but no markings, especially at night, no way would I stop. This is a dilemma.

[BehindBlueI's]

flashing lights but no markings, especially at night, no way would I stop. This is a dilemma.

How, exactly, do you propose to notice the markings on a car that's behind you at night with flashing lights? And, please read the posts and watch the video I posted. Imposters mark their cars for the same reason forged checks aren't done on post-it notes. If you want to forge/impersonate, you try to get it right.


Yet, its not unusual for LEO impersonators to jack cars or forceably enter homes and make the papers.

I can count on one hand the number of impersonators who entered a home around here and the home wasn't a dope house and still have enough fingers to hold my coffee cup.


John Q Public generally isn’t going to know that more lights has some correlation to a higher probability the person pulling you over isn’t a fake. They see blue lights, they pull over.

No duty to pull over for blue lights here, they are volunteer firefighters. It's polite to yield to them, but not required by law. You are only required to yield to forward facing red lights, or any combination including red (red/red is fire, red/white is ems, red/blue is police traditionally).

[Drang]

Not LEO, wasn't going to post, but, on the subject of impersonators, I know a lady here in WA who (used to?) own a range in Spokane, who had a story about how her son was smarter than she thought, because he declined the invitation to go out joy riding with his buddies who were using a couple of the new LED flashlight, one red and one blue, to trick motorists into pulling over. Evidently ( as in, "from the evidence"), one in right hand, the other in the left, flash them alternately, and people will pull over. So far as I know, the boys just laughed their heads off as they drove by, but as a real-life illustration in an NRA Refuse To Be A Victim class about "feel free to drive to a well-lit area before pulling over", it's hard to beat.

[Jeff22]

As Pat Rogers always said, "Policing is regional".

It is only recently, through my participation in some of the good Internet forums populated by intellectuals such as you all, that I have come to realize the significant differences in law and procedure and custom from one state to another.

Around here (Wisconsin) unmarked cars have been common since before I started driving (which was 1975).

We get the occasional incident involving a police impersonator but I get the sense that such incidents are more frequent in other parts of the country

[Duelist]

I drive a fully marked black and white Chevy Tahoe with a light bar on top and very visible deck lights on the rear deck. I constantly have people pass me doing 80+ on the freeway. And if I’m on the freeway I’m doing 5-10 over the limit. Do they not see me (usually) or do they think city cop can’t or won’t pull them over.

You’ve unlocked an achievement because you got a K9 guy to do traffic enforcement.

As a fellow Arizonan who detests driving the Phoenix freeways, I support this message.

[HCountyGuy]

https://thatweemsguy.com/2010/09/20/notes-on-speed-detection/

How does the whole permit thing work relative to roads where the speed limit changes in areas? Noted by mile markers or something?

[jlw]

How does the whole permit thing work relative to roads where the speed limit changes in areas? Noted by mile markers or something?

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[Norville]

As a profession, I build police vehicles for a living. I've done so since 1997. Witnessed the swap from rotators, to halogen to LED's, to now the 4th gen LED's.



Recently, the ghosting of the lettering is becoming very popular, well at least here in NH. NHSP and a few others have 'ghost vehicles' that mostly patrol highway and interstates.

A lot of it is black vehicles, with retro reflective black lettering and emblems.


Y'all be safe out there.

Non LE here.

I saw one of the black ones last week while in NH on business. I thought it was an SRT the way he took off up the ramp. Half a mile later he turns into a crossover and I note the markings. He did not activate the lights when he turned in, but I can imagine it’s pretty noticeable. Sitting in the grass median it was actually more noticeable than the traditional forest green and beige trooper vehicles.

The ‘Black and white” theme is applied with various degrees of execution around the country.

I prefer them conspicuous for all the reasons outlined here.

[willie]

It seems that so-called speed traps are not as prevalent as they once were. When I lived in Alabama, one town became notorious for these. The governor put up large billboards on the main road going through there. In the past when traveling between Texas and Mississippi, I would use a radar detector even though I did not exceed speed limits. This habit showed my cautious nature.

[CSW]

Non LE here.

I saw one of the black ones last week while in NH on business. I thought it was an SRT the way he took off up the ramp. Half a mile later he turns into a crossover and I note the markings. He did not activate the lights when he turned in, but I can imagine it’s pretty noticeable. Sitting in the grass median it was actually more noticeable than the traditional forest green and beige trooper vehicles.

The ‘Black and white” theme is applied with various degrees of execution around the country.

I prefer them conspicuous for all the reasons outlined here.

The beige is actually 'military pink'.
And those phukkahs hide so well against the woodland in NH.