P30 accuracy issues?

[jmjames]

I've been struggling for the last few months to get decent groups out of my P30. I got it in December, and it's never been tight. For a while, I blamed myself, but then I took some instruction (used the instructor's guns that day) and discovered that I actually could shoot accurately... but when I tried it at the range I couldn't replicate that success. I tried switching ammo a few times (Remington UMC, S&B, Magtech, Independence), slowing down, swapped the sights, painted the sights, but my groups are still awful.

Today, I took it to the range, and put it up against two other guns, using the exact same ammunition, exact same range.

For the first one, I shot 5 rounds from each one, then 10 rounds from each one. For the second, I did 15 rounds straight through (one gun only has a 13 round mag so it was 13 then 2). The range for all three guns on each target was the same, since I just left the target out there and didn't move it in between each gun. The range is about 5 yards. I was NOT shooting for speed, I was shooting methodically, taking my time to line up shots, resetting grip as needed, but not lowering my hands or shuffling my feet. The ammunition was 9mm Independence 124 gr (had to buy it at the range since I was renting one of their guns for the test).

Here are the results:

621

622

Gun 1 is the P30, that I take to the range at least once a week and get 50 - 100 rounds through per trip, and dry fire multiple times per week. 5" groups.

Gun 2 is a Glock 17, rented from the range. I've only touched a Glock once before in my life, (other than holding them at gun stores) and that time I only put one mag through it. I am sure that this gun's been shot to death and it certainly doesn't have any modifications to it to improve accuracy.

Gun 3 is a Jericho Compact (Baby Desert Eagle Compact). I've shot this gun twice before (first time was just 6 rounds, second time was 2 or 3 magazines). Stock 3 dot sights, no modifications to it, etc.

What this test shows me is that I am *not* an awful shot, but I seem to shoot the P30 pretty badly, at least in comparison to the Jericho Compact.

So... is this "acceptable accuracy" from a P30? If not, should I be concerned? Should I send it to H&K? Take it to a gunsmith or armorer? Get a different gun to continue to practice with, and step up to the P30 when I am a better shooter? Is there something I might be doing wrong?

As a relatively inexperienced shooter, it is very tough for me to improve when I can't see to get the bullets on target, but at the same time, I'd not be so thrilled about committing to a platform like the Jericho that is based on a design with reliability concerned and has a total lack of aftermarket stuff.

J.Ja

[orionz06]

I believe that is you and not the gun.

I also believe accuracy issues with other guns is beginning to get into the heads of everyone else. Glocks on average are 3" guns at 25, let's assume the P30 will meet that. Assuming that is linear you should have a paster sized group at 5 yards. Even the bad M&P's I have seen will shoot a paster sized group at that range.

Here is my problematic M&P at 3 yards:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/859a6854.jpg

Here is another M&P that is problematic (now) shot at 25 yards standing, ignore the knife please. The paster to the right was shot with a .22 at 10-15 and the group above it was also at 10-15.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/baf76a72.jpg

Brand new USP 9c that I bought with a student loan check, because smart, and shot the first 10 rounds at 25 at the store I bought it at.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/target25yd.jpg

[Kyle Reese]

What variant of the P30 are you shooting? DA/SA or LEM?

I would have an experienced handgun shooter shoot it for groups and see if the issues can be replicated before contacting HK.

Some other things off the top of my head....

- Is there any damage to the barrel crown? Have you dropped your P30 in it's muzzle onto a hard surface?

[jmjames]

What variant of the P30 are you shooting? DA/SA or LEM?

I would have an experienced handgun shooter shoot it for groups and see if the issues can be replicated before contacting HK.

Some other things off the top of my head....

- Is there any damage to the barrel crown? Have you dropped your P30 in it's muzzle onto a hard surface?

It's a DA/SA, all shots were done in SA for all guns, just to make it consistent.

Having another shooter take a gander at it is definitely in line, I was going to ask the guys at the range to give it a go but they were slammed today.

The P30's never been dropped, mishandled, etc. and the crown looks good, no marks and it's even. Other than a friend shooting a few mags through it, I'm the only one who has handled it.

J.Ja

[orionz06]

Shoot from a sandbag if possible.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OPNP4S/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B004O6RT8M&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=002XYPSX1PZQBKSTTFBQ

I rest my hands on something solid to level the sights.

[SecondsCount]

My experience with three P30's is that they are very accurate handguns, typical groups are a ragged hole at 21 feet (7 yards) during slow fire.

I suggest trying to benchrest the gun and see if the groups improve before going any further.

[JHC]

OP - nothing to worry about IMO. Groups at 5 yards are only indicative of the shooters trigger press. And you have better luck with a pure single action trigger which is quite normal. Glock push to the left is quite normal. I had a Colt 1911 that shot soccer ball sized groups at 25 yards from a rest. But at 20' I once put 20 shots into one "rathole" because my trigger press was good. I sold the gun. You'll be good to go. Keep at it.

[jmjames]

I believe that is you and not the gun.

Any idea what I might be doing wrong? Also, why would I be outshooting it by a mile with a different gun? I will say that the recoil on the Jericho is a LOT less than the P30 because of that heavy steel frame, do you think I might be reacting to the recoil or anticipating the shot? I swapped the grip panels and backstraps out for the larger ones to give myself more room to get my hands on it, and because with the smaller backstrap, my support thumb was getting bit by the rails. Perhaps I made it too big for my hands to control?

I certainly don't expect great grouping or anything like that... not at my skill/experience level, but the difference between the guns is remarkable.

I'll try it from a sandbag as you suggest. I can't sit at the range, but I can kneel. A few weeks ago, I did that with just the P30 (no sandbag, but rested my arm on the shelf), and the groups did tighten up a bit.

J.Ja

[JHC]

The greater the ratio between the weight of the trigger pull and the weight of the gun the easier it is to shoot accurately. The Jericho groups should not surprise and would be true of almost any new shooter.

[jmjames]

The greater the ratio between the weight of the trigger pull and the weight of the gun the easier it is to shoot accurately. The Jericho groups should not surprise and would be true of almost any new shooter.

That makes perfect sense. I knew that the heavier gun would bring me back on target quicker, but I didn't realize that the heavier gun also improves accuracy on slow shots too.

Thanks for clearing that mystery up!

Sounds like I need to work with an experienced shooter or instructor to see where my mistakes are being made and how to correct them.

Thanks!

J.Ja

[orionz06]

Also, why would I be outshooting it by a mile with a different gun?

I think what is shown in those targets is your ability to shoot each gun rather than the differences between each gun. Make sense?

[jmjames]

I think what is shown in those targets is your ability to shoot each gun rather than the differences between each gun. Make sense?

I think that makes perfect sense. The explanation about the Jericho being easier to shoot well definitely makes sense, and it also explains the poor Glock groups too.

I think you were onto something about accuracy of guns getting into people's heads, the M&P thread spooked me a bit.

I'll keep working on it, thanks!

J.Ja

[derekb]

This raises an interesting question, that may have been discussed previously, but I don't recall reading about it. If you've got a pistol that you shoot poorly, in comparison to some others, how long should you 'stick with it' before you move on to a gun that you shoot better?

[orionz06]

I guess that depends on how well one shoots any of them. If we decide that X" groups at Y yards is the standard and one shoots 4X with pistol 1 and 3X with pistol 2 does he switch to pistol 2 or look into his skill level? I would argue that one needs to achieve a certain level of competence prior to switching around to different guns if maximizing their performance is the goal.

I think DocGKR summed it up nicely:

The vast majority of people are better off getting additional training from a qualified instructor, rather than another firearm.

[jmjames]

I guess that depends on how well one shoots any of them. If we decide that X" groups at Y yards is the standard and one shoots 4X with pistol 1 and 3X with pistol 2 does he switch to pistol 2 or look into his skill level? I would argue that one needs to achieve a certain level of competence prior to switching around to different guns if maximizing their performance is the goal.

I would also suspect that "how well does this gun meet my overall goals" would play into it a lot too. For my primary goal (self defense), the P30 is an outstanding choice for a number of reasons outside of accuracy. It is worth my while to learn to shoot it well, and I shoot it well enough as it is that I don't feel the urge to ditch it for another gun (that's why I was questioning if my gun wasn't right, not if I should go buy a Jericho :) ).

That said, if there is something about the P30 which makes it a poor choice to develop fundamental shooting skills on, then maybe I'll be better served with something else for training those skills.

J.Ja

[jmjames]

One other thing I noticed: the frame-to-slide lockup is a bit loose, I can wiggle the slide left/right a bit. Not a lot... 1/16"? 1/32"? But enough that I can notice it.

Is this something to be concerned about?

J.Ja

[Kyle Reese]

One other thing I noticed: the frame-to-slide lockup is a bit loose, I can wiggle the slide left/right a bit. Not a lot... 1/16"? 1/32"? But enough that I can notice it.

Is this something to be concerned about?

J.Ja

Normal.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[gtmtnbiker98]

It appears that you are using an improper sight picture with the P30. Your shots are low and well centered which tells me you are using the "pumpkin on a post" sight picture and not a combat sight picture which is the POI is behind the dot, not above. You must aim the front sight dot in the center of your target, not below.

I have 3-years on a V3 P30/L and can attest to their accuracy!

[jmjames]

It appears that you are using an improper sight picture with the P30. Your shots are low and well centered which tells me you are using the "pumpkin on a post" sight picture and not a combat sight picture which is the POI is behind the dot, not above. You must aim the front sight dot in the center of your target, not below.

I have 3-years on a V3 P30/L and can attest to their accuracy!

Yup, sure was! I was doing this on purpose, to make sure that I had a clear view of the target for grouping. I probably should have mentioned that in the original post. Good catch!

J.Ja

[Robert Mitchum]

He is about 25 miles from my house don't care if you guys like him or not but he is a decent shooter...
The gong is 80 yards .
It's not his pistol someone let him use it for the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oR1UDHayys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pa0hNyLAG4&feature=relmfu

[fuse]

I think everyone likes ole hickok. One of my favorites on YouTube.

[JRas]

I think everyone likes ole hickok. One of my favorites on YouTube.

Hell yeah, I want to be like him when I get old. Perfect Grandpa

edit: back on topic, P30 is accurate as any

[farscott]

I would second the thought that it is the shooter and not the gun. How do I know? Because I cannot shoot my wife's P30 and get anything that resembles groups while she can use ammo from the same lot and get three-inch groups at twenty-five yards. She likes the long LEM trigger as it is similar to the revolvers she shoots, and I prefer the short Glock trigger.

[TCinVA]

I would second the thought that it is the shooter and not the gun. How do I know? Because I cannot shoot my wife's P30 and get anything that resembles groups while she can use ammo from the same lot and get three-inch groups at twenty-five yards. She likes the long LEM trigger as it is similar to the revolvers she shoots, and I prefer the short Glock trigger.

How you approach the trigger makes a world of difference. When I learned to use the LEM trigger with a true rolling break (not merely what I thought a rolling break was) my ability to shoot it accurately went up dramatically. I was at the range with another member of our forum some months ago and for giggles I set up one of Todd's 2" circle targets at 25 yards. I aimed at one of the circles and slow-fired the best 5 shots I could using my rolling break epiphany.

All 5 landed within the 2" circle.

The longest shot I've made is hitting a 12" piece of steel at somewhere over 130 yards. I say "somewhere" because it was during a walkback drill in a class and we had left the range and were actually shooting from the parking lot at that point.

I've knocked down 8" steel plates at 100 yards with the pistol.

When I miss, it's always attributable to either not paying close enough attention to the orientation of the sights (I tend to align the front sight high for whatever reason) or because I try to slam through the trigger pull rather than rolling through it and I anticipate.

My epiphany on what a rolling break was came from shooting a double-action revolver. A friend wanted me to check out a beautiful old model 10 he had just bought and I loaded up 6 158 grain lead SWCs, lined up the old school sights I couldn't make out very well on the dark indoor range, and then without really thinking about it just applied a nice smooth constant trigger pull. And managed to fire one of the best groups I'd ever fired through a handgun. When I saw the target the hamster wheel started turning and eventually the 3 watt bulb went on over my head and I finally figured out "Oh, so THAT's how you shoot a long trigger!"

As with weight lifting or driving on a track, it's very easy to think you're doing everything right with a pistol in your hand when you're actually not.

[jmjames]

Quick update: I got out to the range today. I'd been spending a decent amount of time dry firing since the last range trip, paying extra attention to how my finger placement affecting the pull. I also took the suggestion to stay in 2 - 3 yards. Out of 15 round mags, I'd have 1 - 2 rounds outside a 3" circle, and nearly every time I knew it was a bad shot as soon as it happened. I slowed the pace down a bit to just focus on the trigger. I did 6 mags at 2 - 3 yards, and another 3 at 7 yards, and the groups stayed very good.

So, as folks said, this was software, not hardware, thanks!

J.Ja

[JeffJ]

I'm glad that it's working out better for you. Keep dry firing, it is the best thing for trigger issues - especially for newer shooters - and it's free

[jc000]

How you approach the trigger makes a world of difference. When I learned to use the LEM trigger with a true rolling break (not merely what I thought a rolling break was) my ability to shoot it accurately went up dramatically.

As someone who is learning how to approach triggers in general, let alone the LEM trigger, I think this concept of the rolling break is starting to sink in.

OP--I was/am in the exact same boat as you, having difficulty with a LEM pistol even though I seemed to shoot other pistols better. I too, thought there might be an issue with my pistol's accuracy. Now it's becoming more and more apparent where the problems are coming from!

I did have a bit of a breakthrough myself this past weekend. I was doing my typical low shooting 5" groups at 3 yards when I decided to let up my gorilla grip a bit and focus on a consistent, smooth, constant trigger pull. Right away the first shot was centered right in my POA. The next few mags, though I still struggled with consistency, when I could get a smooth rolling pull I got nice tight groups. I'm really going to work on this--the first few hundred rounds I owned the pistol I was staging the trigger. This new approach is making a difference.

I do wish I could find some training from someone who specifically has good LEM experience, but either way, I will be working hard on that rolling break.

Thanks for the great thread.