Looking to put together a very inexpensive AR

[WobblyPossum]

My girlfriend has been wanting an AR of her own. She's not a hobbyist shooter like most of us are and will likely shoot it very rarely. I want to put together a fairly inexpensive one for her for Christmas but I also don't want to assemble something that's complete junk. So far, I've assembled a lower receiver using a Palmetto State Armory stripped lower that seems to be in spec regarding tolerances and dimensions. Since I already had a spare Colt fire control group, A2 pistol grip, and carbine stock, a mil-spec buffer tube, and a buffer and spring, all I had to purchase was a Sons of Liberty Gunworks lower parts kit. I have about $100 in the complete lower. Now I need an upper. To stay with the low cost idea, I wanted to get one of the Palmetto State Armory uppers that used the FN CHF barrels they used to sell and found them all to be out of stock for the past few months. Is PSA still selling those? In case they aren't, is anyone selling something comparable in terms of complete upper assemblies? I'm not looking for something duty grade to trust with anyone's life. I just want a fairly reliable plinker for as low of a cost as I can reasonably assemble one.

[Wake27]

I haven’t seen the CHF uppers for sale for a while. How much are you looking to spend?


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[Greg]

I built a KISS carbine using one of the PSA CHF uppers and the only negative things I can say about the upper is there was ZERO grease of any kind on the barrel nut and it was over tightened.

Obviously, I fixed that.

If you can find them (especially during a holiday sale) they give you a lot of value for the money.

[MistWolf]

Palmetto may not be offering FN barrels anymore. They bought a barrel making company and now make their own barrels.

If you want a 16" middy with a pencil or ultra lightweight profile (which I would recommend for your purposes) you'll need to keep your eyes peeled add they are currently all out of stock. When they become available again, act fast as they sell out quickly.

Whatever you get, make sure to replace the extractor spring with a Colt or Sprinco extractor spring. Don't use a carbine weight buffer. Use an H or H2 buffer. Or, get an A5 type RE, A5H2 buffer and Sprinco green spring.

[JRB]

I've built around a dozen PSA kits. There won't be a 13th unless a friend of mine comes to me with one already purchased and needs help building it - but I'll never recommend it.

Being a cheap option, to me, means it should run cheap steel case ammo. The only PSA upper that I've ever seen run steel case was a 10.5" pistol build with an SS barrel I did for a friend.
Every other one, CHF or not, always choked on steel case .223, and also had problems with various brass case stuff. Yes, that's even with new extractor springs, swapping in vetted Colt or BCM BCG's and checking headspace, playing with different buffer weights, etc. Shit show.
If I want to feed something the more expensive $0.30-.35/rnd brass case ammo, I'll spend more money on the weapon in the first place to get a better result. For cheap blasting/plinking/newbie training, I'd rather spend more on a better quality upper and end up with an upper that runs well on any ammo, even if that meant buying used.

Obviously, total cost by round count may end up cheaper to get a cheap PSA and run it on the cheapest brass you can find - but any gift especially to a girlfriend should be something of at least decent quality, even if she'd never know the difference. At least, that's my take on it.

I personally wouldn't worry about CHF on a low round count gun, I'd instead recommend a quality vendor that builds reliable uppers that can be trusted to run well. New shooters are much less likely to enjoy a range trip if the gun's always screwing up.

On that note - I'd honestly rethink the .223 AR entirely for her and just buy her an M&P 15-22 instead with a PA red dot or similar. Let her get used to it and burn up bricks of .22 rolling cans around on a plinking range and if she decides she wants to get more serious, it'd be worth the effort for a properly built AR at that point.

[Beat Trash]

If you hadn’t already built the lower, I would recommend you just buy an S&W M&P Sport II and be done with it.

If you could find an M&P Sport on sale, I might consider buying one anyway. Then sell off that lower, or sell off the lower you put together.

I’m seeing them on line under $490 for the complete rifle. Sell off the lower for $125-150 and you’d bet set.

[leathermaneod]

I've built around a dozen PSA kits. There won't be a 13th unless a friend of mine comes to me with one already purchased and needs help building it - but I'll never recommend it.

Being a cheap option, to me, means it should run cheap steel case ammo. The only PSA upper that I've ever seen run steel case was a 10.5" pistol build with an SS barrel I did for a friend.
Every other one, CHF or not, always choked on steel case .223, and also had problems with various brass case stuff. Yes, that's even with new extractor springs, swapping in vetted Colt or BCM BCG's and checking headspace, playing with different buffer weights, etc. Shit show.
If I want to feed something the more expensive $0.30-.35/rnd brass case ammo, I'll spend more money on the weapon in the first place to get a better result. For cheap blasting/plinking/newbie training, I'd rather spend more on a better quality upper and end up with an upper that runs well on any ammo, even if that meant buying used.



This is very odd. I only have one sample of a PSA rifle, but I’ve been very happy with it and it runs steel cases ammo very well. Not completely flawless, but almost.



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[MistWolf]

Ability to shoot cheap steel cased ammo usually means an AR is over-gassed. I'd rather not have an over-gassed AR, even if it's an economy model.

The PSA I had was a good rifle, once I got the feed ramps matched and installed an H buffer & Colt extractor spring. It was an earlier model with a Wilson Combat stainless steel barrel and all indications were that the gas port was just right. I ran it hard to see how the stainless steel barrel would hold up. The outside of the barrel turned brown from the heat, but it held up well. It was an A2 profile- like an M4 profile but without the step for the M203.

[WobblyPossum]

This one would definitely need to be a lightweight barrel setup. My girlfriend thinks my Colt Trooper is too heavy. It’s a shame if they’ll no longer be selling the FN barreled uppers. I saw this one and thought it would be perfect for this build: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-midlength-5-56-chf-ultra-lightweight-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle.html

I hadn’t considered the S&W M&P Sport. I didn’t know they were so cheap.

I was hoping to keep the cost of the entire thing under $500 before throwing a PA red dot on it.


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[Guerrero]

This one would definitely need to be a lightweight barrel setup. My girlfriend thinks my Colt Trooper is too heavy. It’s a shame if they’ll no longer be selling the FN barreled uppers. I saw this one and thought it would be perfect for this build: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-midlength-5-56-chf-ultra-lightweight-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle.html

I hadn’t considered the S&W M&P Sport. I didn’t know they were so cheap.

I was hoping to keep the cost of the entire thing under $500 before throwing a PA red dot on it.


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They might all be gone now, but if you could find the "gen 1" Sport, I hear they're better. You can also sometimes find the Ruger AR556 in sub-$500 territory.

Try watching the Mr. Guns and Gear Facebook page for deals:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Mrgunsngear/posts/?ref=page_internal

[Craig@SSD]

....

I hadn’t considered the S&W M&P Sport. I didn’t know they were so cheap.

I was hoping to keep the cost of the entire thing under $500 before throwing a PA red dot on it.


Give me a call on Monday, and I should be able to make that happen for an Individual Officer Program (IOP) purchase.

[Poconnor]

A more expensive option would be to buy a BCM upper, LW mid , put magpul forearm on. Don’t think of it as a cheap AR. Think of it as a spare upper for you that she shoots. That’s how I justified putting an aimpoint on a .22LR. It’s a spare for a my rifle

[WobblyPossum]

I also hadn’t considered an M&P 15-22. That might just be perfect. I’ll have to ask my girlfriend if that’s something she’d be interested in. Does anyone know if they’ve fixed whatever safety issue was being talked about last year?


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[WobblyPossum]

A more expensive option would be to buy a BCM upper, LW mid , put magpul forearm on. Don’t think of it as a cheap AR. Think of it as a spare upper for you that she shoots. That’s how I justified putting an aimpoint on a .22LR. It’s a spare for a my rifle

Ha I’m actually trying to trim down my battery of rifles since I have two and a spare already. I do like the way you think though.


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[Greg]

Ability to shoot cheap steel cased ammo usually means an AR is over-gassed. I'd rather not have an over-gassed AR, even if it's an economy model.

Agreed.

[JRB]

Mistwolf, Greg - I don't want to get into the weeds with that but I'll simply offer this:
AR-15's are like the Small Block Chevy V8 of rifles. There's a lot of reasons to want a V8, some of them are fine-tuned high performance jobs and other ones just need to start every time and run on shit gas and make sure that truck gets where it's going.

Expensive AR's built for specific purposes are those fine-tuned high performance engines. They should expect to run (and perform!) on good ammo, and be fine-tuned to maximize everything possible (including reliability) with good ammo. Many of those benefits and performance improvements will come at the expense of ammo flexibility, same way that race engines don't drink regular 86 octane.

Cheap AR's, on the other hand, just need to work. I don't want to feed a ho-hum truck engine 91 or 93 octane pump premium, and I don't want to feed a $300 upper 35 cent ammo either.
So if a cheap AR needs to be 'overgassed' to run on that '86 octane' cheap steel case ammo, it isn't overgassed, its tuned properly for the intended use, fuel, and purpose.

PSA's are cheap truck engines of AR's, period. They should be able to drink any fuel like a cheap truck engine and they should be expected to run okay, but not set any performance records like a truck engine. The fact that I'm 1 out of 12 for running on steel case with a bottom-shelf AR vendor doesn't impress me any more than having a 200hp V8 that requires 91 octane or better wouldn't impress me.



I also hadn’t considered an M&P 15-22. That might just be perfect. I’ll have to ask my girlfriend if that’s something she’d be interested in. Does anyone know if they’ve fixed whatever safety issue was being talked about last year?


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Appleseed played some shrill hand-wringing CYA games about a freak incident with one, and they've banned them ever since. S&W took it very seriously but after inspecting the two rifles involved, they concluded that the problems were lack of cleaning and using non-recommended ammo. Appleseed then decided they didn't want to play CYA on ammo types for a given rifle and it was easier to ban the rifle entirely.
It was really disappointing to see that, as I liked the Appleseed program a lot and was looking forward to putting my nephew through it. But if they can't bother to put on their own big-kid pants with a simple policy requiring participants to ensure their rifles are clean and only using recommended ammo, I can't really hold their program in any kind of regard. The whole thing reeks of the kind of idiocy I expect from brain-dead LTC's that want risk assessments for using a goddamn wash rack.

Personally, I've got an early Gen I M&P 15-22 that went back to S&W for an extractor fix around ~1000 rounds, but I've had no other issues and I gave up trying to keep a round count a long time ago. Again, zero and I mean zero issues of any other kind.
Almost every time I bring anyone to the range it goes along, and it gets ~250 rounds down the pipe. If a new shooter, especially a young one comes with me, typically it'll see 1000+ rounds in an afternoon and in one egregious case, two teenagers went through five 550 round bricks of ammo in about 4 hours. Zero issues, either with safety or reliability. I'd guess I've cleared a malfunction once ever ~500 rounds or so, nothing out of line with a .22LR rifle.
I've cleaned it maybe 5 times ever and that was basically hosing it out with brake cleaner and compressed air, and re-oiling with whatever was at hand.

Two friends have later models - zero issues reported.

If one was exceptionally paranoid, you could simply replace the trigger group with an ALG or similar since the M&P 15 takes a lot of AR pattern trigger groups.
Of course, do your own research and come to your own conclusion, but I personally believe the whole 'safety issue' was profoundly overhyped on account of Appleseed's CYA games.

[GJM]

At current prices, why not just buy a Colt?

[OnionsAndDragons]

At current prices, why not just buy a Colt?

This is my first thought in general.

I do like the M&P sports for just a plinking/training gun. I have a gen1 with about 6500 rds or so on it with no issues whatsoever.

In OPs position, I would probably call SSD and just get that M&P for her and safe up that lower for a rainy day.


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[MistWolf]

Mistwolf, Greg - I don't want to get into the weeds with that but I'll simply offer this:
AR-15's are like the Small Block Chevy V8 of rifles. There's a lot of reasons to want a V8, some of them are fine-tuned high performance jobs and other ones just need to start every time and run on shit gas and make sure that truck gets where it's going.

Expensive AR's built for specific purposes are those fine-tuned high performance engines. They should expect to run (and perform!) on good ammo, and be fine-tuned to maximize everything possible (including reliability) with good ammo. Many of those benefits and performance improvements will come at the expense of ammo flexibility, same way that race engines don't drink regular 86 octane.

Cheap AR's, on the other hand, just need to work. I don't want to feed a ho-hum truck engine 91 or 93 octane pump premium, and I don't want to feed a $300 upper 35 cent ammo either.
So if a cheap AR needs to be 'overgassed' to run on that '86 octane' cheap steel case ammo, it isn't overgassed, its tuned properly for the intended use, fuel, and purpose.

PSA's are cheap truck engines of AR's, period. They should be able to drink any fuel like a cheap truck engine and they should be expected to run okay, but not set any performance records like a truck engine. The fact that I'm 1 out of 12 for running on steel case with a bottom-shelf AR vendor doesn't impress me any more than having a 200hp V8 that requires 91 octane or better wouldn't impress me.

With all due respect, this is exactly why folks shouldn't use automotive examples when talking about firearms. Low pressure steel cased ammo isn't the same as using lower octane fuel. It's the same as using less fuel (more accurately, less air/fuel mixture) because ammo that generates less pressure uses less gunpowder. It's as if the throttle were limited to opening only halfway.

In other words, using full pressure ammo in a cheap AR isn't running a pedestrian automobile on high octane racing fuel. It's running a pedestrian automobile on pump gas WFO. Running an AR on low pressure ammo is like running any car no more than half throttle to save on gas and wondering why it won't keep up with traffic.

[HCM]

This is very odd. I only have one sample of a PSA rifle, but I’ve been very happy with it and it runs steel cases ammo very well. Not completely flawless, but almost.



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Not odd at all. PSA has had inconsistent quality for a long time. Some good some bad. Trouble is you never know exactly what you are going to get.

They also have at least 4 different lines or quality levels.

The PSA and PSA premiums were a good bet, especially when the were still offering the CHF barrels.

The PTAC and Freedom stuff not so much.

[HCM]

For the OP:

I have two M&P15-22s and they are awesome. Lost of fun and light if that is an issue.

Re building an AR upper (since you already have the lower), there are several Labor Day sales going on right now.

AIM surplus has a sale going on including FAXON and Ballistjc advantage AR barrels and other parts. ALG / Geissele also has 20% off for Labor Day - ALG rail and a BA or FAXON pencil barrel would be a good start to your GF’s new upper.

https://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=8045&name=Labor+Day+2018+Sale!

[Wake27]

I jumped on one of the $199 blem uppers PSA has been selling recently. I wish it was the LW, it’s got some weight at the end of the barrel. But it was complete for that price, all I needed was a rear sight. Considering how over gassed my recent Noveske barrel was, I’ll be happy as long as this runs. We’ll see on Sunday. But between potential quality problems and weight, I’d have to agree with the 15-22 recommendation, I love mine. It’s one of those guns that I appreciate the more I shoot it and my wife likes it even more than I do.


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[ranger]

I have multiple PSA uppers and so far are running fine. Tough to beat if you want a "cheap" AR. I typically do not shoot cheap steel case because I find it problematic in all my ARs - cheap or not. With the price of bulk brass 223/556 - the last of my steel case sits in the corner. I tend to shoot my 223 reloads most of the time. I have a "cheap" 16 inch PSA upper with a "pencil" barrel - that setup would probably be just right for your needs.

[JRB]

With all due respect, this is exactly why folks shouldn't use automotive examples when talking about firearms. Low pressure steel cased ammo isn't the same as using lower octane fuel. It's the same as using less fuel (more accurately, less air/fuel mixture) because ammo that generates less pressure uses less gunpowder. It's as if the throttle were limited to opening only halfway.

In other words, using full pressure ammo in a cheap AR isn't running a pedestrian automobile on high octane racing fuel. It's running a pedestrian automobile on pump gas WFO. Running an AR on low pressure ammo is like running any car no more than half throttle to save on gas and wondering why it won't keep up with traffic.

Likewise with respect - I've built a hell of a lot more engines professionally than I have rifles, and your dissection of my simile is even less accurate than it was to begin with.

My intent was to illustrate that something may be 'wrong' by one metric but that 'wrong' characteristic is simply optimization to accommodate another one to make the best of the configuration at hand - in this case an 'overgassed' AR by one specification might simply be tuned for the crap ammo it's going to be fed. On any gas operated weapon the gas port diameter is simply one variable in a larger equation of gas system length, ammo 'power factor', bolt carrier design/piston design, gas port location/dwell time, etc etc. This is not unique to AR's, building custom AK's or any other gas operated rifle requires attention to all of these and ammo is a variable, not a constant, unless you identify a specific load spec to be the only ammo it'll be fed.
Reducing overall performance somewhat to increase reliability on poor fuel is absolutely accurate to tuning engines.

We could get into the weeds of dynamic compression, combustion chamber design, piston design, spark plug location/configuration, intake air temp, intake manifold runner length, exhaust backpressure and exhaust runner length, and both delivered fuel mass and fuel octane rating and how that all ties together to determine detonation threshold and cylinder pressure at a given RPM - and why riding the threshold of detonation doesn't result in peak power or torque in most cases, but that'd be an un-needed thread derail.

Bottom line- cheap AR's should be able to eat steel case, and cheap AR's that are *not* reliable on steel case because they're not 'overgassed' is not a virtue. If it's a virtue for some, I'll just bow out and let you guys fill up hoopties with 101 octane race gas if that's what makes you happy.

[Casual Friday]

My experience with several PSA rifles, none of which being the PTAC or Freedom line, would be to spend your money elsewhere.

My kid's each have a M&P 15-22, they are fantastic rifles and a blast to shoot.

[WobblyPossum]

At this point, I’m leaning heavily towards buying an M&P 15-22, throwing a PA microdot on it and leaving the already completed lower alone. If my girlfriend ends up liking the .22 enough that she wants to get a centerfire AR, she’ll already be half way there. With the .22 she’ll be able to have fun and work on basically everything except recoil control.

Thanks everyone.


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[O4L]

Regarding shooting steel cased ammo in a PSA rifle...I had a complete SS Freedom 16" midlength upper that I only ran TulAmmo through. Never had a hiccup.

[MistWolf]

At this point, I’m leaning heavily towards buying an M&P 15-22, throwing a PA microdot

A good buddy of mine has a 15-22 and we've shot the snot out of it, suppressed and unsuppressed. It's been nothing but reliable and as far as I know, it's never had an out of battery problem. We shoot mostly Gemtech subsonic 22 LR out of it. The 15-22 is a lot of fun to shoot.

I got my wife a Primary Arms Micro Advanced (with rotary knob) and it's been the best non-Aimpoint red dot I've seen. Battery life is more than satisfactory and we haven't been able to shoot it apart yet. It's currently on a rimfire AR, but it's also spent time on 5.56 ARs and a 308 AR. Glass isn't as clear as an Aimpoint, but it still works well.

[DMF13]

I'd get this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-1-7-mid-length-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-kit-516446780.html

Or this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-midlength-nitride-5-56-nato-1-7-moe-ept-freedom-rifle-kit-with-rear-mbus-flat-dark-earth.html

Then look for an Anderson or PSA stripped lower on sale.

They also have some CHF kits, and complete rifles, but they are all with carbine length gas, and aren't worth the money IMO.