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03RN
08-18-2018, 11:52 AM
How safe is Keith's .38 special load in modern guns like m10s and m64s?

I'm referring to the 168 grain cast Keith bullet over 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass.

Duelist
08-18-2018, 01:42 PM
Wow. Is that load in any modern reloading manuals? Because that sounds like a .357 recipe I’ve used.

PNWTO
08-18-2018, 02:01 PM
Off the cuff, since I'm away from the literature, that sounds like it would be into .357 loadings. Keith ran his guns into the ground and was fortunate to have a Pez dispenser supply line of pistols that were sent his way.

03RN
08-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Yeah, after a little more looking it's meant for "pre N frame" n frames like the .38/44

I just remembered Keith and later Taffin writing about it.

Of course Buffalo Bore has their 158 grain swc pushing 1200fps in a legit .38 load.

BN
08-18-2018, 02:45 PM
First, remember you're talking about Elmer Keith. ;) He blew up a lot of revolvers.

I pulled out a couple of old Speer manuals that have some hot loads, and the heaviest charge was 10 grains of 2400 in .38 Special with a 160 grain bullet. I think that was one of Keith's loads for N-Frames only. They loaded long on Special brass to get magnum velocities because .357 brass was scarce. Those are .357 magnum pressure loads. I would never run something like that in a non magnum K-Frame.

Wheeler
08-18-2018, 04:41 PM
The main reason I acquired a model 28 was to play around with some of the .38/44 and Keith loads. I wouldn’t run some of them in my 686.

SD
08-18-2018, 06:50 PM
I know this in not from the reloading side of this topic but this is still partially related. Recently shot this Underwood load. It made for a very unpleasant sensation in my had when using my 640. To be honest it was pretty snappy coming out of my 4" 66 to. 29268

03RN
08-18-2018, 07:03 PM
The main reason I acquired a model 28 was to play around with some of the .38/44 and Keith loads. I wouldn’t run some of them in my 686.

I would think if it was a .357 it would be fine

03RN
08-18-2018, 07:06 PM
Pg 69 of Taffins "Big Bore Handguns" clearly states that the load I posted in the OP is only safe in the 38/44, colts new service and single action army.

Probably should have reread that chapter before posting.

03RN
08-18-2018, 07:08 PM
I know this in not from the reloading side of this topic but this is still partially related. Recently shot this Underwood load. It made for a very unpleasant sensation in my had when using my 640. To be honest it was pretty snappy coming out of my 4" 66 to. 29268

Yeah, I think Underwood and Buffalo Bore load with fairy dust.

I'd love to figure out a way to load that myself.

Wheeler
08-18-2018, 07:11 PM
I would think if it was a .357 it would be fine

Perhaps. Some of the Skeeter Skelton loads for .357 will shoot an L frame loose. Ask me how I know. ;) I figured the .38/44 loads were developed for use in an N frame so I’d stick with that for good measure. Besides, it’s hard to go wrong with a model 28. :)

Jim Watson
08-18-2018, 07:43 PM
I don't recall any Skeeter load except 13.5 2400 + 156 gas check, seated to bottom crimp groove in .38, top groove in .357. If an L frame can't stand that, it ain't much.
Sharpe showed way heavy .38 loads, 35000 crusher psi.

Spartan1980
08-18-2018, 07:43 PM
I'd wager that Skeeter's favorite .38 load (a Lyman 358156 gas checked) came from the long loaded Keith loads. That bullet was designed with 2 crimp grooves, one for .38 brass and one for .357 brass. Crimped in the proper groove in a .38 case it will only fit in a .357 chamber. I was never brave enough to take it all the way into Skeeter territory. I used it in .357 brass with 296 powder. But if I were out of .357 brass and running them in an N frame I'd do it.

Edit: Looks like 2 of hit post at the same time.

RevolverRob
08-18-2018, 09:01 PM
Considering a steady diet of +P FBI loads will shoot a K-Frame loose, I wouldn't try shooting .357 level rounds in those guns or even a .357 K-Frame.

L-Frame, N-Frame, GP100, Redhawk.

Wheeler
08-18-2018, 10:15 PM
I don't recall any Skeeter load except 13.5 2400 + 156 gas check, seated to bottom crimp groove in .38, top groove in .357. If an L frame can't stand that, it ain't much.
Sharpe showed way heavy .38 loads, 35000 crusher psi.

Here's one for starters: "Some loading manuals list the 358156 HP bullet with as much as 16 gr. of 2400 in .357 cases, a top load which gives about 1600 fps velocity. Although well below the acceptable factory pressure level, this load is a bit hot, and I prefer 15 gr. of 2400 for better accuracy, less recoil, and longer case life."

I have others on actual paper. The one in question was pushing a 125 grain at around 1800 from a 6" barrel. If your L frames will handle that then more power to you and them.

Jim Watson
08-19-2018, 10:32 AM
Sharpe shows a number of very heavy loads from back when the only guns were the .357 and a few New Service and SAA, heavy frames.
Skeeter may have been citing Sharpe on 16 gr 2400 but 15 was pretty well standard for 150-158 grain bullets by the time I got into it with Lyman 44th (the Great Western .357 Atomic was reportedly loaded with 16 gr).

I have not seen a claim for a 125 at 1800, did Skeeter use that? I wonder if even an N frame would hold up long term with that.

Wheeler
08-19-2018, 11:37 AM
Sharpe shows a number of very heavy loads from back when the only guns were the .357 and a few New Service and SAA, heavy frames.
Skeeter may have been citing Sharpe on 16 gr 2400 but 15 was pretty well standard for 150-158 grain bullets by the time I got into it with Lyman 44th (the Great Western .357 Atomic was reportedly loaded with 16 gr).

I have not seen a claim for a 125 at 1800, did Skeeter use that? I wonder if even an N frame would hold up long term with that.


I have some actual copies for loads attributed to Skeeter on paper as well as some .38/44 loads attributed to various sources. If I can find them in my piles of stuff I'll share for academic purposes.

I've ran those super hot loads through my M28 and a Winchester Model 94 with no noticeable issues, an apples/oranges comparison to be sure but my 686 did NOT like them at all.

Malamute
08-19-2018, 11:51 AM
The Ns are heavier duty, but have a certain quirk Ive never quite understood. The cylinder is shorter than the K and L 357s, so a load that fits easily in the latter doesnt fit in an N 357. Some common cast bullets needed to be deep seated in 357 cases that easily fit in K and L cylinders, so its not a totaal win on the Ns. Ive never understood why they didnt lengthen the N 357 cylinders to match the K and L cylinder length, though all factory loads fit the N, which in the end is the likely answer. Its seldom that factories make changes to suit handloaders.

Several have mentioned L frame 357s being apparently in the same class as some others, meaning way above Ks. LSP 972 and others mentioned that they were in improvement to a degree, but not in the class that many seemed to put them in. They held up longer with full magnum use, but were more in the "some better but not hugely better" to paraphrase.

I thought I read all of Keiths books but dont recall him blowing up numerous guns. A couple old Colt SA 45s let go for various reasons, one that he attributed to a bad case with a 300 gr load with black powder. It was then that he focused on the 44 spl for the thicker chamber walls and I believe somewhat better brass. Its common for people to dis the old stories of "weak 45 Colt brass", but when I first started loading it in the early 80s, some of the brass I came into, and some very old shells found out in the hills were quite lighter construction than later brass. Keith is often characterized as pushing everything to the limits and beyond. He did experiment above then current loads,which ended up being further developed into factory 357 magnum and 44 magnum chamberings, but wasnt as reckless as many seem to characterize. When the 44 magnum came out, he wrote that the loads he worked up were obviously much less pressure than factory, and he was happy to leave it that way, he thought they went a bit farther than he was comfortable with. His heavy 45-70 loads (53 grs 3031/400 gr cast or jacketed @1800-1850 fps) ended up being a very useful improvement over the then factory level 400 gr loads, and where the levels ended up staying with 1886 and Marlin level loads by Speer and others. They run a shade under 30,000 CUP in pressure, much less than 30-30 factory load chamber pressure.

the Schwartz
08-19-2018, 06:12 PM
I know this in not from the reloading side of this topic but this is still partially related. Recently shot this Underwood load. It made for a very unpleasant sensation in my had when using my 640. To be honest it was pretty snappy coming out of my 4" 66 to. 29268

Dang, that hurts just reading about it. :eek:

andre3k
08-20-2018, 09:58 PM
I know this in not from the reloading side of this topic but this is still partially related. Recently shot this Underwood load. It made for a very unpleasant sensation in my had when using my 640. To be honest it was pretty snappy coming out of my 4" 66 to. 29268

That's smoking for a 38 spl. My 357mag 158gr LSWC loads are cooking along at 1300 fps with 10gr of Blue Dot which is a max load.

Wayne Dobbs
08-21-2018, 12:32 PM
Keith mentioned another heavy .38 Special load that may have more application. It was his 358429 over 5.0 Unique. Has anybody run that one and what did you find?

TiroFijo
08-21-2018, 02:53 PM
Keith mentioned another heavy .38 Special load that may have more application. It was his 358429 over 5.0 Unique. Has anybody run that one and what did you find?

That one is listed on Lyman's 47th ed reloading handbook, it is a 168 gr SWC, 4" vented barrel, 860 fps, 16,700 CUP (normal SAAMI pressure).

I've tried other 158-160 gr lead bullets, SWC or FP over 5.0 Unique, and it works very well, accurate and powerful. For snubbies I prefer to load a bit milder, 4.6 to 4.8 gr.

Wayne Dobbs
08-21-2018, 03:55 PM
That one is listed on Lyman's 47th ed reloading handbook, it is a 168 gr SWC, 4" vented barrel, 860 fps, 16,700 CUP (normal SAAMI pressure).

I've tried other 158-160 gr lead bullets, SWC or FP over 5.0 Unique, and it works very well, accurate and powerful. For snubbies I prefer to load a bit milder, 4.6 to 4.8 gr.

I've read some other places the idea that that load is +P or more. I recall in my much younger days running a 155 grain SWC (358477) over 5.5 grains of Unique and it was very capable for .38 Special.

TiroFijo
08-21-2018, 04:17 PM
29353

TiroFijo
08-21-2018, 04:21 PM
This is from the 1995 printing, well into the era when pressure was meticulously measured, not guessed.

okie john
08-22-2018, 03:25 PM
I’d be VERY careful with data published prior to the advent of reliable pressure and velocity testing. I’ve seen writers of that era make claims that defy the laws of physics.


Okie John

TiroFijo
08-22-2018, 03:34 PM
I’d be VERY careful with data published prior to the advent of reliable pressure and velocity testing. I’ve seen writers of that era make claims that defy the laws of physics.


Okie John

Pressure "reading" by eyeballing fired cases and primers... :eek:

okie john
08-22-2018, 04:01 PM
Pressure "reading" by eyeballing fired cases and primers... :eek:

coughBobHagelcough


Okie John

jtcarm
08-28-2018, 10:32 AM
I switched to Power Pistol for a medium rate powder when I couldn’t find unique a few years back

6 grains behind that bullet clocks between 950 & 1000 FPS from a 4” barrel.

Tom Duffy
08-28-2018, 01:10 PM
Of course Buffalo Bore has their 158 grain swc pushing 1200fps in a legit .38 load.

The first time I shot this bullet out of my N frame, I was very surprised at how potent it felt.

TiroFijo
09-03-2018, 02:42 PM
John Taffin on "5 gr. Unique" and the 38 spl...

https://americanhandgunner.com/unique-5-grains-is-a-perfect-10/

"Five grains Unique has been a standard load for the .38 Special with both the Military and Police .38 and Unique powder arriving right about the same time. With the Lyman #358477 SWC hard cast bullet in a pre-War S&W 4″ M&P muzzle velocity is right at 950 fps with groups just over 1″. The same load works the same wonders in the .357 also."

The Lyman #358477 is a 150 gr SWC

https://americanhandgunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/LOAD_sw_so18.jpg

Jim Watson
12-15-2018, 09:29 PM
Elmer wrote me - G&A Q&A, not personal correspondence- that the .358477 was OK if I just must use Magnum brass, but he still preferred 358429 in Special brass.

deputyG23
12-17-2018, 10:34 AM
I have a .38 blued GP-100 that I bought to potentially load 38-44 equivalent handloads in. One of these days I will get a can of 2400 and see what I can do with it. I suspect that whatever an L-frame can take, this Ruger should be able to. I believe the old 38-44 factory loads ran about 1100 fps from a 4" barrel with a 158 grain bullet.

deputyG23
12-17-2018, 01:48 PM
Wow. Is that load in any modern reloading manuals? Because that sounds like a .357 recipe I’ve used.

I just checked Alliant's webpage and they list 9 grains as the max load for +P.

revchuck38
12-17-2018, 09:03 PM
I have a .38 blued GP-100 that I bought to potentially load 38-44 equivalent handloads in. One of these days I will get a can of 2400 and see what I can do with it. I suspect that whatever an L-frame can take, this Ruger should be able to. I believe the old 38-44 factory loads ran about 1100 fps from a 4" barrel with a 158 grain bullet.

I loaded some .38-44 loads from an old Lyman manual with six grains of Unique under a 170 grain LSWC. I've shot it but haven't chronographed it, am going to the range Thursday morning to do just that (and shoot some other stuff). My calibrated thump-o-meter says 1050-1100 fps, we'll see what the chrono says. I shot it in my M13, it's too much thump for me in a K frame. I'll probably use my 681.

JHC
12-18-2018, 12:37 PM
How safe is Keith's .38 special load in modern guns like m10s and m64s?

I'm referring to the 168 grain cast Keith bullet over 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass.


This isn't about a reload but I really dig this thread cause some day I'll return to reloading and those heavy .38 loads are cool.


But, here's a +P 158 grain flatpoint from the reputable Lawman line. It just came back "in stock".

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-p-speer-lawman-158-grain-tmj-ammo-53750


Cheap too.

TiroFijo
12-19-2018, 07:56 AM
I like this bullet for 38 spl, +P or normal pressure, and also mild 357 mag loads. Lee 358-158-RF

https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/880x660/Primary/172/172810.jpg

I seldom cast nowadays, but I buy them chep from a friend. Just use WW alloy or harder and any decent lube, works very well in all my guns.

The flat nose is generous, but they are still easy to align for fast reloads.

OlongJohnson
12-19-2018, 02:58 PM
But, here's a +P 158 grain flatpoint from the reputable Lawman line. It just came back "in stock".

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-p-speer-lawman-158-grain-tmj-ammo-53750


Cheap too.

Does anyone know for sure if those primers are crimped? Can't really tell from the photos I can find online.

JHC
12-19-2018, 03:09 PM
Does anyone know for sure if those primers are crimped? Can't really tell from the photos I can find online.

IDK but I have a couple of boxes inbound and will find out.

JHC
12-19-2018, 03:10 PM
I like this bullet for 38 spl, +P or normal pressure, and also mild 357 mag loads. Lee 358-158-RF

https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/880x660/Primary/172/172810.jpg

I seldom cast nowadays, but I buy them chep from a friend. Just use WW alloy or harder and any decent lube, works very well in all my guns.

The flat nose is generous, but they are still easy to align for fast reloads.

Very nice. I think for all around that would have it all over an actual SWC since that meplat is pretty legit.

okie john
12-19-2018, 04:13 PM
Very nice. I think for all around that would have it all over an actual SWC since that meplat is pretty legit.

It looks a lot like the long flat-nose (LFN) designs that Veral Smith of LBT used to champion. Terminal performance should be better than that of an SWC, but it can be easier to make the SWC shoot well. A lot of Veral's designs shoot best at high velocity and don't shoot as well when they're going slow.


Okie John

TiroFijo
12-20-2018, 08:05 AM
It looks a lot like the long flat-nose (LFN) designs that Veral Smith of LBT used to champion. Terminal performance should be better than that of an SWC, but it can be easier to make the SWC shoot well. A lot of Veral's designs shoot best at high velocity and don't shoot as well when they're going slow.


Okie John

I've tried them from 800 to 1100 fps, in 38 spl and 357 mag cases, and the accuracy in my guns was excellent. VERY tight groups at 25 m, and they are still accurate at 100-200 m.

revchuck38
12-20-2018, 12:27 PM
I loaded some .38-44 loads from an old Lyman manual with six grains of Unique under a 170 grain LSWC. I've shot it but haven't chronographed it, am going to the range Thursday morning to do just that (and shoot some other stuff). My calibrated thump-o-meter says 1050-1100 fps, we'll see what the chrono says. I shot it in my M13, it's too much thump for me in a K frame. I'll probably use my 681.

I made it to the range today but was time-crunched and the sky wasn't cooperating. I managed to get a five-round string and it showed 1077 fps and 17 SD from my 4" 681. That's a PF of 183, not too shabby from a .38 Special...but the only .38 I have that I'd think about shooting them in is my Official Police, and probably not then. I loaded them for my 4" M28-2.

Looks like my thump-o-meter is still within calibration limits. ;)

03RN
12-20-2018, 07:29 PM
This isn't about a reload but I really dig this thread cause some day I'll return to reloading and those heavy .38 loads are cool.


But, here's a +P 158 grain flatpoint from the reputable Lawman line. It just came back "in stock".

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-p-speer-lawman-158-grain-tmj-ammo-53750


Cheap too.

They also have a standard pressure .38 swc from ppu rated at 900fps.

OlongJohnson
12-21-2018, 06:00 PM
The Speer has a $2/box rebate going from Vista.

willie
12-22-2018, 03:01 PM
Elmer wrote me - G&A Q&A, not personal correspondence- that the .358477 was OK if I just must use Magnum brass, but he still preferred 358429 in Special brass.

Elmer preferred .38 Spl brass for this bullet because its length sometimes caused problems when seated in magnum brass. In these instances, the bullet had to be seated deep enough to permit crimping on the front edge of the shoulder. The arrangement reduced powder capacity. His favorite load was this bullet and 8 grains of Unique in a .38 Spl case. He was shooting it in .38/.44 revolvers. These were N frames but at the time the N designation did not exist. My favorite .38 Spl bullet is the 477 150 grain version. I fired untold 1000s in Spl cases loaded with 5.5 grains of Unique. I ran these through K and J frames without incident. However, today's reloading philosophy is that it is over pressure and should not be used. The 477 bullet and 5 grains of Unique is a much better balanced load. Accuracy is superb, and pressures are sensible.

boatbum101
01-05-2019, 12:44 PM
I've loaded & shot 38-44 loads with the Keith designed 358429 for many years . I usually shoot them from a pre Model 23 ODM or a Model 28 . ODM is still chambered for 38 special & of course the 28 is a 357 . The shorter cylinders on the N frames make it necessary to crimp over the front driving band as this bullet has only 1 crimp groove , in 38 special crimp at the groove . The 358156GC which IIRC is a Sharpe design & has 2 crimp grooves lower for 38 cases & upper for 357 cases . My alloy is 12 BHN for both & I use either White Label Carnuba Red or LBT Blue lube . I also use Starline 38 + P cases so these do not wind up in my 38 special Colt OMM or K38 . For many years my favorite powder for this type loads was IMR SR4756 sadly discontinued . I used 7.0grs with the 358429 , 8,0grs with the 358156 . With 2400 I prefer 12.5grs with the 358429 & 13.5grs with the 358156 both are in the 1250fps range from my guns . Other loads that work well with the Keith bullet are 12.5grs 4227 , WSPM primer in 38 case runs 1150fps from the pre 23 6.5" barrel . 2400 loads I use the Fed 100 primer . 8.5grs of VVN-105 w/ Fed 100 , 10.5grs VVN-110 w/ WSPM , 13.5grs W296 w/ WSPM , 7.5grs 800X w / Fed 100 runs 1223fps from my ODM 6.5" . These loads are over SAAMI pressures for 38 + P & I would NOT shoot them in a K or an L frame . N frame S&W , Colt NS or SAA , Ruger guns only . Although I've killed deer , hogs , coyotes with these loads I'll no longer hunt with them . I much prefer my 41mag RBH for that . They do a bang up job on pests eradication regardless of how many legs they have .

03RN
02-13-2019, 07:27 PM
I don't think I'm pushing anything even close to Max. I just loaded up some .38s with 158 swc over 4.6 and 5 grains unique. Plus some .357s with the same bullet over 6.4 of unique.

I'd like to find a real good .38 service style load. I've got 2k peices of perfecta brass I'd like to load up for general use/rainy days.

revchuck38
02-13-2019, 08:49 PM
I'd like to find a real good .38 service style load. I've got 2k peices of perfecta brass I'd like to load up for general use/rainy days.

What velocity are you looking for? Bullets - lead, plated, jacketed?

Alpha Sierra
02-13-2019, 09:34 PM
I'd like to find a real good .38 service style load. I've got 2k peices of perfecta brass I'd like to load up for general use/rainy days.

4.5 grains of CFE-Pistol under anything 158 grains

03RN
02-14-2019, 04:30 AM
What velocity are you looking for? Bullets - lead, plated, jacketed?

Something that's close to the Speer 158 +p load. Not married to any bullet as long as it has a decent metplate.

03RN
02-14-2019, 04:40 AM
4.5 grains of CFE-Pistol under anything 158 grains

What sort of velocity are you getting? Barrel length/bullet type?

revchuck38
02-14-2019, 05:44 AM
4.5 grains of CFE-Pistol under anything 158 grains

I'm not Alpha Sierra, but Hodgdon's data shows a standard pressure starting load of 4.4 grains of CFE-P under a 158 LSWC as giving 927 fps from a 7.7" barrel. From a 4" gun I'd subtract 150-200 fps. They list two different 158 LSWCs and have the max standard pressure load at 5.0 and 5.3 grains with velocities of 1029 and 1048 respectively. They only list one +P load with a 158 Hornady XTP over 5.4 grains and 986 fps.


Something that's close to the Speer 158 +p load. Not married to any bullet as long as it has a decent metplate.

For a given powder charge, you'll get the highest velocities with lead bullets (either coated or plain), the lowest with jacketed, and plated will fall somewhere in between. My preference would be for coated lead. I'd probably go with a traditional LSWC or LTC profile. WFN bullets are out there, but they tend to be offered at boutique prices. These plated TCs (https://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets/38-158gr-plated-fmj-bullets.html) would be worth checking out if you want to stay away from lead and would be close to the Speer bullet.

Alpha Sierra
02-14-2019, 07:22 AM
What sort of velocity are you getting? Barrel length/bullet type?

860 fps avg with a Speer lead SWC from a 4" Model 64

I've since switched to truncated cone 158 gr coated bullets from SNS Casting. They slide in more easily from a speedloader and the coating (any coated bullet really) really cuts down on smoke and airborne lead.

I'm currently burning through an old can of 700-X that I got for a song, but as soon as I get rid of it I'm going back to CFE-P which is my powder of choice for 38 Special and 9X19

Alpha Sierra
02-14-2019, 05:54 PM
What sort of velocity are you getting? Barrel length/bullet type?

I was wrong. I checked my ammo boxes and I have 5.3 grains of CFE Pistol, not 4.5. 860 fps through the chrono.

deputyG23
02-15-2019, 02:40 PM
4.6 grains of BE-86 behind a Georgia Arms cast 158 grain SWC yields an average of 882 FPS from my 4" GP-100 and is the maximum standard pressure .38 load listed. I use this for practice in all of my .38/.357 revolvers.

Borderland
04-18-2019, 11:39 AM
I have Alliant load data that lists 200 gr LRN for 2400.

38 spl plus P

Rem SP
OAL 1.54
7.1 grs 2400
890 fps/5.6" barrel
17.5K PSI

That's within the 20K standard for plus P.

I think there are better powders for your application tho.

entropy
04-20-2019, 07:57 AM
I have some SnS 158gr coated and 160gr Matt’s that are waiting to be loaded up. I usually use Unique, but have a can of CFE Pistol I picked up along the way. Does it meter well? That’s my gripe with Unique. It’s like metering rocks.

Totem Polar
04-20-2019, 10:05 AM
This isn't about a reload but I really dig this thread cause some day I'll return to reloading and those heavy .38 loads are cool.


But, here's a +P 158 grain flatpoint from the reputable Lawman line. It just came back "in stock".

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-p-speer-lawman-158-grain-tmj-ammo-53750


Cheap too.

I shot tons of that stuff when I lived 30 miles away from CCI/Speer, and up the hill from one of their local retailers. Shot LFI-1 with that load, too. Good training round.

358156hp
04-21-2019, 05:46 PM
These pages are from Mike Venturinos research. Duplicate with caution, and keep this sort of stuff out of J & K frames. Some of it seems a bit light compared to the 1930s data.
37499

37500

entropy
04-21-2019, 08:07 PM
Good info. Some of those 2400 loads seem...well a bit “toasty”.

KevH
04-21-2019, 10:36 PM
How safe is Keith's .38 special load in modern guns like m10s and m64s?

I'm referring to the 168 grain cast Keith bullet over 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass.

I was too lazy to read through this entire thread, and I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but that's a 38/44 load. I wouldn't try it in a K-frame.

Jim Watson
04-22-2019, 10:06 AM
That is even heavier than stock .38-44 158 at 1150.

Elmer said of the then-new Model 19 that he considered it adequate for factory magnums (No 125 screamers in those days) but that he would shoot it with his "heavy .38 load."

Skeeter Skelton loaded the 155 gr gas check with 13.5 gr 2400.

And Phil Sharpe shows .38 Special loads for strong guns THE SAME as .357 Magnum. 1510 fps and all.

Keith and others thought 2400 was a great improvement over the old No 80 powder for heavy revolver loads.

Wayne Dobbs
04-22-2019, 11:35 AM
With regard to the heavy .38 Special loads in the guns of legacy gun writers, it's useful to understand that if they wore out revolvers from the abuse of overpressure loads, they only had to make a call and a new gun would be on the way, gratis. Also, I doubt they shot near the volume of rounds through their guns that a serious IDPA/ICORE/USPSA shooter would do today that would fully expose how hard these loads were on the guns.

Spartan1980
04-22-2019, 01:13 PM
Skeeter Skelton loaded the 155 gr gas check with 13.5 gr 2400.


He also used the Lyman 358156 mold which had 2 crimp grooves. The normal groove was for magnum loads in magnum cases. He used the 2nd groove which in a .38 case spaced the bullet out to approximate .357 mag OAL. This increases case volume which lowers pressure a little. I only mention this in case someone uses a normal 158 SWC with the same charge. They might get a rather nasty surprise.

Jim Watson
04-22-2019, 04:20 PM
Yes, but Elmer and Phil didn't.

revchuck38
04-22-2019, 05:02 PM
Yes, but Elmer and Phil didn't.

At least Elmer used the 358429 which pretty much filled a .38/44 HD chamber to the mouth. I found out the hard way that you can't crimp that bullet in the crimp groove in .357 brass and use it in an M27. :rolleyes: Good thing I had an M19 to empty those cartridges!

Current commercial .38/.357 158-grain LSWCs are designed to fit in M27/28 chambers when loaded in .357 brass. They're seated pretty deep.

Jim Watson
04-22-2019, 06:20 PM
Yup.
Phil Sharpe said his SWC weighed less, had shorter bearing, and cast closer to diameter, hence gave higher velocity.

45dotACP
04-22-2019, 07:31 PM
Part of me really wants to stick some 125 gr HPs on top of 8.0 gr of Power Pistol just so I can use up what's left of an 8lb keg.


And also because fireballs rock

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

BN
04-22-2019, 07:33 PM
Also, I doubt they shot near the volume of rounds through their guns that a serious IDPA/ICORE/USPSA shooter would do today that would fully expose how hard these loads were on the guns.

I think I read somewhere that Elmer Keith only fired 12 rounds of .44 Magnum per week.

358156hp
04-23-2019, 10:21 PM
Yup.
Phil Sharpe said his SWC weighed less, had shorter bearing, and cast closer to diameter, hence gave higher velocity.

After a bit of debate, Phil also admitted that his "design" was simply a shortened (4/5s? 5/6?) Keith bullet. He simply shrunk the bullet to make it fit the early 357s.

Elmer & Phil never did seem to like each other much.

Jim Watson
04-24-2019, 08:27 AM
I think I read somewhere that Elmer Keith only fired 12 rounds of .44 Magnum per week.

Let's see, now; I had read 600 the first year, and that is indeed 12 a week.


After a bit of debate, Phil also admitted that his "design" was simply a shortened (4/5s? 5/6?) Keith bullet. He simply shrunk the bullet to make it fit the early 357s.

Elmer & Phil never did seem to like each other much.

I recall the 5/6 scale.

They definitely did not get along. Not as vicious as the feud with that English professor guy, but still not a collegial arrangement.
Elmer preferred bigger bores anyhow.
Sharpe was in cahoots with gun, ammo, and powder companies on the .357, so he had pressure tested data while Keith was straining the guns.

willie
04-24-2019, 11:41 AM
Keith and Cooper did not get along either. Keith seemed not to tolerate disagreement.

Jim Watson
04-24-2019, 02:25 PM
I got to shake Elmer's hand at the NRA convention one year.
He made a lot of points with me because he was talking to members. The other gunzine writers and industry figures were flocking together without much interaction with Mere Members.
He did write in his next G&A column that he was plumb worn out by all the attention.

Dave T
05-10-2019, 12:38 PM
Back in the mid 1970s (when I was a young wipper-snapper) I loaded a lot of hand cast from wheel-weights 358429s over 10.5g of 2400 in 38 Special cases. Got that load from a Lyman handbook. I shot it in both my duty M28-2 and my Ruger Blackhawk. Shot exceptionally well as I recall.

More recently I got interested in the 38/44 cartridge when I acquired my firest Heavy Duty S&W (N-frame). The original claim for the factory load was a 158g bullet @ 1125 fps. Barrel length was not specified but the most common in the early HDs was 5". I come close to duplicating that performance with 158g plated bullets over 11.5g of 2400. Last time I chronographed it I got 1141 fps from my 5" HD and closer to the origional velocity in my 4" HD with 1130 fps. This performance is duplicated almost to the FPS with Buffalo Bore's +P 158g Heavy 38 Special loadings. If I were to carry one of the HDs the BB would be my carry ammo, with the hand loads for practice.

Being the curmudgeon I am I don't see the need for Magnum ammo anymore as this 38/44 ammo and hand loads do everything I need a medium bore to do, and do so more controllably than Magnums. If I needed more power I would go to a bigger cartridge/bullet (I hear the 45 Colt calling - smile).

Dave

Zeke38
05-20-2019, 09:56 PM
Using a 145 LHP in a 38 Special case and 6.7 grains of Power Pistol. Accurate and it is chronos at 962fps out of a Kimber 2" and 1079 out of a Ruger MC 4.2" no signs of high pressure, but it would be a 38/44 load. I only shoot this load in weapons chambered for 357 Magnum. Bullet from GT Bullets in Georgia.

Dave T
05-21-2019, 09:54 AM
Had an interesting development regarding heavy 38 Specials yesterday, shooting my latest 38 Special acquisition. I found a USFA 38 Special single action sporting a 4-3/4" barrel. Gun appears to be in excellent condition so I took it to the range for a test fire before my newest student showed up. My intent, even when I was just looking for a 38 single action, was to shoot my 38/44 loads hand loads.

That was the ammunition I had with me for the test fire, but I only got to the 3rd round before the cylinder bound up so tightly it couldn't be turned by pulling back on the hammer, even with two thumbs. Ultimately I had to take out the cylinder pin, cock the hammer far enough to drop the bolt, them beat on the cylinder with the heal of my hand until it finally started to move and eventually came out.

The three fired primers told the tale once I could see them. Because of the traditional cone shaped firing pin USFA used, and the correspondingly large opening in the firing pin bushing, the near 357 Mag pressure of my 38/44 loads caused the primer to flow back into the bushing, jamming up the cylinder to the point it wouldn't turn. This ammunition has never caused a bit of trouble with any of the Heavy Duty S&Ws I've owned or in any 357 Magnum chambered revolver I've tried. USFA, in making their near copy of a 1st Generation Colt made it just a tad too traditional for this loading of a 38 Special. The gun (cylinder, barrel, and frame) are obviously strong enough for the 38/44 but the primer cups aren't strong enough to maintain their integrity up against that big opening in the FP bushing.

I've going to have to come up with a new "heavy" hand load, more like a +P 38 Special, to shoot in this particular single action revolver. I suspect Elmer would be disappointed with me. (smile)

Dave

03RN
05-22-2019, 05:29 PM
Wow, good to know. I was thinking about loading up the same load for my m64 & M15. Which primers are you using?

I got around 1050 with a 158 hardcast, both swc and truncated, over 5.2 of unique. It's max in the current publications and cleaner burning than lower amounts.

revchuck38
05-22-2019, 05:37 PM
03RN - Note that the problems he had were due to the use of a clone of a first generation SAA, not due to the primers. Pressures were different in 1873. :)

03RN
05-23-2019, 04:19 AM
03RN - Note that the problems he had were due to the use of a clone of a first generation SAA, not due to the primers. Pressures were different in 1873. :)

Hmm, interesting

BN
05-23-2019, 05:57 AM
Dave T, what brand of primer were you using. Federals are softer and will "flow" where others won't.

Dave T
05-23-2019, 12:45 PM
Bill, they were Federal SP primers. I loaded up 25 rounds with a bit less 2400 and WW small pistol primers to see if I can stop the flow. I'll see what happens the next time I get to the range.

Dave

BN
05-23-2019, 01:04 PM
Bill, they were Federal SP primers. I loaded up 25 rounds with a bit less 2400 and WW small pistol primers to see if I can stop the flow. I'll see what happens the next time I get to the range.

Dave

Try CCI or Winchester primers. I've had Federal primers look like high pressure loads when any other primer looks OK with the same load.

03RN
05-23-2019, 04:47 PM
Try CCI or Winchester primers. I've had Federal primers look like high pressure loads when any other primer looks OK with the same load.

I get flattened primers with federal factory 158gr jsp from Walmart.

Dave T
05-30-2019, 05:32 PM
O3RN,

My primers weren't just flattened, they were flowing back into the hole in the firing pin bushing and jamming the cylinder of my USFA single action solid.

I had another student for today so I was at the range and just had to try my new "heavy 38" load in the USFA. This time I had WW primers and 1 grain less 2400. Went through all the test rounds I loaded (about 25) and didn't have a single problem. Now I'll have to drag out the chronograph and see what that 158g bullet is doing about 10' from the muzzle. (smile)

Dave

ssb
12-30-2022, 02:30 PM
I attempted to duplicate a .38/44 load. The data I got today was:

Montana Bullet Works 358156GC 155gr SWC, 12.5gr Alliant 2400, seated at second (.38SPL length) crimp groove, mixed .38SPL brass, CCI 550 primers, mild roll crimp.

Gun: Smith and Wesson Model 28-2 4”
Hi: 1100FPS
Low: 1045FPS
Avg: 1079FPS (10 shots)
ES: 55
SD: 16

Approximately 3” at 25yds. Not quite the velocity I was hoping for.

Jim Watson
12-30-2022, 05:34 PM
What were you hoping for?

Old catalog shows .38 Special High Velocity, Super Speed, .38-44 HV, etc. at 1075 - 1125 fps from 6" barrels.

03RN
12-30-2022, 07:42 PM
That's interesting, I got 1089 with 11.5gr 2400 under a rimrock 158gr swc-wn from a 4" m64-5.

Malamute
12-30-2022, 07:47 PM
What were you hoping for?

Old catalog shows .38 Special High Velocity, Super Speed, .38-44 HV, etc. at 1075 - 1125 fps from 6" barrels.


The Rem and Peters loads showed 1115-ish fps, the Western and one Winchester load show 1175 fps (and one @ 1125 I believe) in the 1943-44 Shooters Bible. The ones I have from the 50s showed similar information.

Not sure why the differences from the various companies.

willie
12-30-2022, 11:59 PM
I attempted to duplicate a .38/44 load. The data I got today was:

Montana Bullet Works 358156GC 155gr SWC, 12.5gr Alliant 2400, seated at second (.38SPL length) crimp groove, mixed .38SPL brass, CCI 550 primers, mild roll crimp.

Gun: Smith and Wesson Model 28-2 4”
Hi: 1100FPS
Low: 1045FPS
Avg: 1079FPS (10 shots)
ES: 55
SD: 16

Approximately 3” at 25yds. Not quite the velocity I was hoping for.

I saw pressure tests on this bullet and 2400. 13.5 grains, the famous Skeeter Skelton load, exceeded 357 Mag pressures. Your load should be safe. I'm curious. What's the bullet diameter?

As a young man I used some of the Keith loads using 38 Spl brass, and I'm surprised now that I didn't blow up my revolvers. I won't cite the one with Unique and his 168 gr bullet.

With the above bullet and 38 Spl case with the bullet in the same crimp grooves, you might try 6.0 grains of Unique though you won't get the velocity you're seeking. The big dude with the hound dog has 38 Spl loads figured out better than anybody I've seen. Look at his data.

ssb
12-31-2022, 09:55 AM
I saw pressure tests on this bullet and 2400. 13.5 grains, the famous Skeeter Skelton load, exceeded 357 Mag pressures. Your load should be safe. I'm curious. What's the bullet diameter?

As a young man I used some of the Keith loads using 38 Spl brass, and I'm surprised now that I didn't blow up my revolvers. I won't cite the one with Unique and his 168 gr bullet.

With the above bullet and 38 Spl case with the bullet in the same crimp grooves, you might try 6.0 grains of Unique though you won't get the velocity you're seeking. The big dude with the hound dog has 38 Spl loads figured out better than anybody I've seen. Look at his data.

These bullets are .357”. The primers appear normal - no flattening or anything that I can tell. I think it’s a safe load and it’ll work for what I want it for; I just was hoping for something closer to 1150FPS. I find the recoil in an N frame to be quite pleasant. In any event, this load should do for outdoor use in my area (black bears).

I’d like to find some Unique, but it - like 2400 - seems pretty scarce right now.

I’m new to revolver loading. This thread was useful in getting me started. Wadcutters and then the 168gr bullets are my next intended projects.

willie
12-31-2022, 10:10 AM
.When you reorder the bullets, I suggest specifying .358 diameter if you have a choice. I think that would shrink your groups. Yes, you have a good load. It sounds like you are on your way. Consider using a Lyman M-Die expander which has two sections. The first enlarges a short area of the case neck while the other bells the case mouth. It offers several advantages. Using this die with .358 bullets will improve your groups. I'd bet on that.

Flamingo
12-31-2022, 10:18 AM
willie do you think I could run the 162 NOE WCs hotter? My current load is 3.3 gr. I am getting decent groups from it (at least at 7 and 10 yards).

The powder I have on hand is W244, VV 3N38, Titegroup, True Blue,

entropy
12-31-2022, 10:20 AM
Digging back about a year+ ago or so...I got about the same results both with velocity and accuracy. This was out of a 4” M28. I did end up with an acceptable load in the end. I can’t recall what it was exactly though. I’ll try to dig it up. I just didn’t have much luck in the accuracy department when I pushed them.

willie
12-31-2022, 10:32 AM
willie do you think I could run the 162 NOE WCs hotter? My current load is 3.3 gr. I am getting decent groups from it (at least at 7 and 10 yards).

The powder I have on hand is W244, VV 3N38, Titegroup, True Blue,

Please tell me which powder you are using in the 3.3 grain weight.

You can seat the wc bullet out farther and crimp in a grease groove. Obviously, this step increases powder capacity which allows increasing the charge. The 162 grain wadcutter's length is taking up extra space.

Flamingo
12-31-2022, 10:33 AM
Well I feel like a dumb ass... it is titegroup.

willie
12-31-2022, 11:32 AM
Well I feel like a dumb ass... it is titegroup.

No. Definitely not a dummy.

3.3 titegroup is max for a 148 gr wc. Since you have increased bullet weight and reduced powder capacity by using the NOE wc, I say stop at 3.3 gr unless you seat the bullet out farther. I've never used this powder so I'm recommending based on looking at published data. Red Dot and Bullseye are old powders that are useful in wc loads. I'm out of date in that I continue to use my stash of older powders. Because I read all this stuff, I'm aware that Titegroup has a high Nitro content and burns really hot. It may not be as forgiving as the two older powders mentioned. If you are shooting this ammo in your big Ruger, you won't damage the weapon.

Do you need 357 brass?

Spartan1980
12-31-2022, 11:49 AM
Speaking of powders, Winchester WST is good with HBWCs too.

Flamingo
12-31-2022, 11:53 AM
willie I am loading the 162 further out than the 148 by about .155 inches.

99362

The primers look good on this as well.

99363

Sent you an email about the brass.

willie
12-31-2022, 12:18 PM
Most interesting! Then bump the charge to 3.5. If you were using Bullseye, you could load 3.5. I assume that the two powders have similar burning rates. Yes, the primers look good. Pretty bullets too. My memory is poor. Is the NOE mold one that I owned?

Flamingo
12-31-2022, 12:25 PM
I bought that one after reading some of 44 heavy wadcutter load threads. The 148 WC is from the NEI mold you gave me. The 148 shoots slightly more accurately than the 162, but not by much.

I posted this picture in another thread but here is a 30 round group I shot at 7 yards with the 162s from my M10-6 yesterday.

99364

okie john
12-31-2022, 12:49 PM
The Rem and Peters loads showed 1115-ish fps, the Western and one Winchester load show 1175 fps (and one @ 1125 I believe) in the 1943-44 Shooters Bible. The ones I have from the 50s showed similar information.

Not sure why the differences from the various companies.

The ammo makers had chronographs but they were crude by today's standards. They all used different guns in their tests, and the marketing departments had at least as much input into figures like that as the engineers. Plus very few individual shooters had chronographs in those days, so they couldn't counter any claims that the ammo companies made.


Okie John

03RN
12-31-2022, 02:57 PM
These bullets are .357”. The primers appear normal - no flattening or anything that I can tell. I think it’s a safe load and it’ll work for what I want it for; I just was hoping for something closer to 1150FPS. I find the recoil in an N frame to be quite pleasant. In any event, this load should do for outdoor use in my area (black bears).

I’d like to find some Unique, but it - like 2400 - seems pretty scarce right now.

I’m new to revolver loading. This thread was useful in getting me started. Wadcutters and then the 168gr bullets are my next intended projects.

Fwiw 8.1 grains BE-86 in .357 brass gets me to 1150fps with a 158gr swc.

Borderland
12-31-2022, 05:49 PM
How safe is Keith's .38 special load in modern guns like m10s and m64s?

I'm referring to the 168 grain cast Keith bullet over 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass.

An old Lyman manual (1967) shows the max load for that bullet to be 10.5 grains at 1000 fps. That looks like it might be a little sporty.



http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Lyman44.pdf

revchuck38
12-31-2022, 06:14 PM
The only .38 Special load with 13.5 grain of 2400 that I know of is the "Skeeter Skelton load" using the 358156 bullet crimped in the bottom crimp groove. My understanding is that Skelton shot it exclusively in M27s. He used .38 Special brass because he had access to a bottomless pile of .38 brass due to his day job in LE.

Borderland
12-31-2022, 06:54 PM
The only .38 Special load with 13.5 grain of 2400 that I know of is the "Skeeter Skelton load" using the 358156 bullet crimped in the bottom crimp groove. My understanding is that Skelton shot it exclusively in M27s. He used .38 Special brass because he had access to a bottomless pile of .38 brass due to his day job in LE.

I've never read Keith or Skelton because I started reloading in earnest around 2008. I'm sure they both have some good stories.

I can understand shooting that load in a M28/27, but if you love your digits let somebody else test it in a K frame. JMHO.

Jim Watson
12-31-2022, 08:31 PM
Keith said of the Model 19 that he would limit it to factory magnums or "my heavy .38 load."

358156hp
01-01-2023, 04:10 PM
willie do you think I could run the 162 NOE WCs hotter? My current load is 3.3 gr. I am getting decent groups from it (at least at 7 and 10 yards).

The powder I have on hand is W244, VV 3N38, Titegroup, True Blue,

Back when I got my first 358432, I went on a search for loading data since none was easily found. I ended up buying a copy of Ideal Handbook 38, and it showed 358432 lumped together with all 38 Spl loads using cast bullets of the same weight. I've been content enough with this information to simply use 158-162 gr data, starting loads first, until I get what I'm looking for. I've also taken the same approach with 357 loads as well. As noted in another post, 358432 doesn't encroach as deeply into the case as standard wadcutters.

I hope this helps,
Bob

358156hp
01-01-2023, 04:16 PM
Keith said of the Model 19 that he would limit it to factory magnums or "my heavy .38 load."

Keith had two loads for 38 Spl. I'd have to look up the light load, but the heavy load ended up with the same powder charge as Skeeters load, but with Keiths heavier 358429 bullet. Somewhere, Skeeter mentions deliberately dropping the bullet weight because Keiths load seemed too hot for his needs. Keiths original 358429 has bounced up and down on weight, but the original design was 173 gr.

358156hp
01-01-2023, 04:20 PM
I've never read Keith or Skelton because I started reloading in earnest around 2008. I'm sure they both have some good stories.

I can understand shooting that load in a M28/27, but if you love your digits let somebody else test it in a K frame. JMHO.

I'm not aware of any K frame blowing up with Keith or Skeeter loads. I have however, seen a lot of seriously loose and worn K frames from shooting hot loads.

Jim Watson
01-01-2023, 04:47 PM
Keith had two loads for 38 Spl. I'd have to look up the light load, but the heavy load ended up with the same powder charge as Skeeters load, but with Keiths heavier 358429 bullet. Somewhere, Skeeter mentions deliberately dropping the bullet weight because Keiths load seemed too hot for his needs. Keiths original 358429 has bounced up and down on weight, but the original design was 173 gr.

What he actually said was:
"I particularly like my old heavy .38 Special load with Keith hollow point 160 grain bullet and 13.5 grains 2400 in .38 Special cases in this gun."

Phil Sharpe had his own SWC which he considered superior because at 158 grains it had less weight and less bearing surface and as he spec'ed it out, cast closer to groove diameter than the usual Lyman-Keith. In fact, the only loads he showed with no. 2400 powder were with the 146 gr hollow point version.

Chic Gaylord considered the Keith hollow point too obviously deadly for police use.

Crazy Dane
01-02-2023, 09:49 AM
A while back I tried 170 SWCs and they were too long in magnum cases and I was instructed to research .38-44 load data. I copied below from my reloading journal. I'm still using 12.5g of 2400 in nickel .38 cases. I don't know what pressures these are supposed to be but I just tickle the ejector rod and the empty cases fall out.



The Elmer Keith load for the Lyman 358429 170gr bullet was 13.5gr of 2400. I started with 12gr and 12.5gr loads. After testing, there is no need to seek further. Due to limited .38 special brass and 3 revolvers to shoot, I only had enough to test 5 rounds of each charge per gun. 10 yards to target, 10ft to chronograph.

12.5 grains 2400

Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1288, good accuracy. covered all 5 with a 2" paster.

Colt Python 4" - 1363, 2.5" group, could be the shooter. I was surprised at the lack of felt recoil with the Colt.

Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1218, Worst group out of the 3 at 4". This load is not intended for this gun, just curious.

12 grains of 2400

Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1195, just under a 2" group.

Colt Python 4" - 1289, 1.5" group, see why its becoming my fav?

Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1104, great group, sub 2" but over 4" high from POA.

.38-44 Learning has occurred! (pistol-forum.com) (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49256-38-44-Learning-has-occurred!)

Jim Watson
01-02-2023, 11:25 AM
Interesting.
Skeeter said 1250 fps with 13.5 gr 2400 and 155 gr gas check.

Luckygunner Labs shows factory 158 gr .357 Magnum from 1181 to 1287 fps in 4" Ruger.

You may have a "fast" Colt barrel or maybe the powder is "hotter." I have been asking about powder variations on another board.

Outpost75
01-02-2023, 11:48 AM
Larry Gibson over on another forum Cast Boolits pressure tested the Skeeter load in a TC Contender fitted with strain gage interface to Oehler 43 PBL. The 13.5 grain charge with #358156 in .38 Special brass exceeds the SAAMI MAP for .357 Magnum. Better to reduce the charge to 12 grains for S&W N-frames and Rugers and not to exceed 11 grains in anything else if you want the gun to last.

Remember also that barrel-cylinder gap has as much influence on velocity as barrel length. A 4 inch gun at min. spec. pass 0.003"/ hold 0.004" will chronograph faster than a 6-inch gun at max. 0.008" pass/ 0.009" hold. These days it is not unusual to find a new in box S&W with B-C gap of 0.010 whereas in my day such a gun would be rejected as "open front gage" and returned to assembly for refit of a + cylnder 0.005" longer. This was the factory fix for OFG to avoid having to set back and refit a barrel.

358156hp
01-02-2023, 10:57 PM
Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

jtcarm
01-03-2023, 11:48 AM
Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.


Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.


Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

SAAMI MAP was reduced due to durability issues in medium-frame revolvers.

A J-frame probably would last long fed a steady diet of 43,500 PSI ammo. There may be safety issues as well.

willie
01-03-2023, 08:13 PM
Improved metallurgy, heat treating, and a small frame tweak permitted current J frames to withstand 357 Mag pressures.

Keith's 359421 designed before the 357 Mag came about is too long to fit some brand of cylinders when loaded in magnum cases. The reason is the location of crimp groove. 173 grains is a nominal weight. The harder the alloy, the less this bullet weighs--more tin and antimony means a smaller percentage of lead.

358156hp
01-03-2023, 11:48 PM
SAAMI MAP was reduced due to durability issues in medium-frame revolvers.

A J-frame probably would last long fed a steady diet of 43,500 PSI ammo. There may be safety issues as well.

And then S&W started playing the discontinuation game with K Frames, then reintroducing them, then discontinuing them again. I see a few variations of the M19 are currently cataloged, along with a M66.

jtcarm
01-29-2023, 09:55 AM
For reference, I went to the range yesterday to test some “workup” .357 ammo using the Accurate 36-170A bullet, which weighs right at 170 grains cast from COWW + 2%.

I was looking for a load that would do around 1,000 FPS.

12.7 grains of IMR 4227 got me a bit over that with “meh” accuracy.

Switching to 2400, my starting load of 12 grains was VERY noticeably hotter, averaging around 1,200 FPS from a 6.5” Blackhawk. My Caldwell phone app wasn’t cooperating, so numbers aren’t precise.

Cases still ejected easily, so pressure probably wasn’t very high, but there’s no way I’d try that in a .38 case, much less 13.5.

entropy
01-30-2023, 07:31 AM
What kind of accuracy were you getting with the 2400?

revchuck38
01-30-2023, 08:26 AM
jtcarm - I got 1080 fps using a 170-grain SWC over six grains of Unique in .38 Special cases from my 4" 681. You could back that off somewhat and get 1000 fps from the Blackhawk with less recoil and unburnt powder. I personally wouldn't use slower-burning powder for that unless the improved accuracy merited shoveling all the unburnt powder out of the gun. :)

ssb
01-30-2023, 12:08 PM
My 1961 edition of Sixguns lists 5.0gr of Unique and 13.5gr of 2400 as loads for the .38/358429 combo. The latter he specifies as a .38/44 load; the former is apparently totally safe in a J Frame :rolleyes:.

I have some 358429 coming from Rimrock. I plan to work up to around 12gr of 2400. Somebody on another forum was able to pressure test that load at 12gr, coming in just shy of 29,000PSI. I’ll be launching them out of an N Frame.

revchuck38
01-30-2023, 02:14 PM
The Lyman manual that came out in '61 (lost the front cover and first few pages, but they have a contest with first prize being a trip to the '62 NRA Nationals) shows six grains of Unique and 10.5 grains of 2400 for 358429, with the caution that they're for "heavy frame guns only". The ones I loaded are dedicated to my 4" M28-2.

This song came up on Pandora while I was typing. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOEXaRsT3s