Advice for folks who won't ever practice

[peterb]

Todd posted this in another thread:


If you weren't ever going to practice, I'd say the laser could be a good idea. It allows you to aim while keeping a target focus and doesn't rely on precise alignment between eye, gun, and target. Take two equally bad shooters and I see the untrained guy with a laser outshoot the untrained guy with iron sights every time.

We've probably all talked to folks who want a gun for protection, but who have no desire to practice or become a "shooter".

They should train, but they won't. They should take a class, but they won't. That's just being realistic. They believe in the gun as magic wand, and they're set on buying something. So what choices can these folks make -- or can we help them make -- to be as safe and effective as possible?

Just as an example, what would be a reasonable "nightstand gun" for someone who might not touch it for years? A 4" Model 10 with Crimson Trace grips?

[JDM]

I wouldn't suggest a gun to anyone that isn't willing to take the responsibility of defensive handgun ownership serious enough to get at least basic training, and practice a few times a year.

If they practice a few times a year, and receive basic training in defensive gun use, then any modern auto loader in at least 9mm will do.

[Kyle Reese]

I wouldn't suggest a gun to anyone that isn't willing to take the responsibility of defensive handgun ownership serious enough to get at least basic training, and practice a few times a year.

If they practice a few times a year, and receive basic training in defensive gun use, then any modern auto loader in at least 9mm will do.

Precisely.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard prospective gun buyers say something like "I'll get a _____, and maybe a box of bullets. It doesn't matter cuz I'll put it in the sock drawer, and if someone breaks in I'll just wave it at them."

In a case like that, any firearm might be a bad idea / liability.

[DonovanM]

Precisely.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard prospective gun buyers say something like "I'll get a _____, and maybe a box of bullets. It doesn't matter cuz I'll put it in the sock drawer, and if someone breaks in I'll just wave it at them."

In a case like that, any firearm might be a bad idea / liability.

But the bigger and more intimidating it looks, the better. So maybe a Desert Eagle? :D

[Sparks2112]

Every effing day I deal with this. Every day.

[JodyH]

Just as an example, what would be a reasonable "nightstand gun" for someone who might not touch it for years?
Remington 870 youth 20ga.

[JHC]

Just as an example, what would be a reasonable "nightstand gun" for someone who might not touch it for years? A 4" Model 10 with Crimson Trace grips?

Funny you mention that. A few years ago I was invited out to a local indoor range to shoot with the principal of one of our vendors and one of his buddies. Well the "vendor" is a former Israeli paratrooper with combat experience in Lebanon. He doesn't shoot often and isn't current with ISO, grip, drawstroke etc but he effortlessly printed 3" groups of ten at 20 yards with his Sig P226. OTOH, his buddy showed up with an empty pistol rug and had to run home again to get the actual gun. He was not a squared away gun guy.

But when he returned it was with a 4" Model 10 with a laser. And he started rolling DA groups at 7 yards you could cover with your fist. He didn't even raise it completely to eye level. Just out in front of his jaw and shot. He was as clueless a gun guy as I've met, a liberal that refused my challenge of a $100 bet that Bush would beat Kerry, but he just put that red light on the bulleye and rolled off hits.

It reminded me of the legends of why the Samuraii hated firearms. They negated the life long learned skills of their craft. The laser made this guy able to control his hits better than comparable clueless NDP shooters I'd seen shooting a DA revolver.

[JHC]

Every effing day I deal with this. Every day.

:D That's funny.

[JeffJ]

Remington 870 youth 20ga.

QFT

[Kyle Reese]

Every effing day I deal with this. Every day.

I can kinda understand why some gun shop employees are surly types (not saying you are):cool:

[orionz06]

call 911?

[Sparks2112]

I can kinda understand why some gun shop employees are surly types (not saying you are):cool:

On the right day with the right retard I can get going. Trust me.

[Al T.]

As Tam mentioned, if you can't handle the retards, firearms sales is not for you.

Back on topic:

I've found that the G19, S&W M&P Compact, Ruger P95 all (IMHO and IME) are easier to shoot than a revolver. If you really do mean "years", that may be the only time a wheel gun gets the nod.

[David Armstrong]

Just as an example, what would be a reasonable "nightstand gun" for someone who might not touch it for years? A 4" Model 10 with Crimson Trace grips?
I have recommended many a K-frame Smith to students over the years, preferrably with a 3 or 4 inch tube. I have found that to be the basic default for those who are unable or unwilling to practice. Minimal maintenance, easy to use, effective. And I've taught a lot of target focused stress shooting to those folks also as it seems to stick with them longer and works well with their natural tendencies. Since the CT laser I regularly suggest they get one, but most won't justify the expense. The only reason my 2 nephews have Sig P6s instead of 4" K-frames like the rest of my non-shooting family is that I couldn't find a good used revolver to give them at the time.

[Sparks2112]

I handle them just fine, I just sometimes wish they'd combust. :)

"Yo dawg, that's chunky, it's got da beam and everything."

"Yes sir, and we can order "beams" for almost every pistol we have." Facepalm.

[Jay Cunningham]

I would say that those of us on this website are in the vast minority.

I don't know what the actual numbers are on people that have prevailed in shootings or gunfights who were completely untrained (I would love to know these numbers) but I suspect it is a significantly larger number than those that have been through 400 hours of professional pistol instruction.

So people can and do defend themselves with guns who just keep them in the drawer and who don't really practice. This is the reality, and what we here on this forum feel about it isn't going to change it a helluva lot.

I think there's a lot to be said for a 4" double action revolver, probably .38sp or perhaps the +P offering. Jody mentioned a 20 gauge shotgun with a youth model stock, which could be another similar type of offering, though would require a little more in the way of thinking and manipulations.

The CT laser is probably a great idea on the .38, but like someone mentioned there is going to likely be a big fight justifying the cost for these people. Possibly a big honkin fiber optic front sight on the revolver could help out.

Todd and I have talked about this before, and we both agreed (at least I think we did) that if we only had two hours to teach someone to defend themselves with a handgun, we'd teach them to point shoot (as Hackathorn defines it) and rock on.

[JodyH]

2 hours of training and a lifetime in a drawer?
S&W 4" K-frame with a Hogue rubber grip (I wouldn't trust batteries after years of storage so the CT is out).
Train them with full wadcutters, load it with .38 +p's.
The training would consist of finger off the trigger and muzzle awareness followed by a lot of low ready to COM at 5 yards.
No sights, no trigger control, no reloading, just raise the gun up into line of sight and shoot until it's empty.
They aren't going to remember a proper grip, they aren't going to ingrain any fundamentals.
Hopefully they'll remember 1/2 the safety rules (finger and muzzle).
The only "skill" they'll come out of the class with would be you have to somewhat point the gun where you want the bullets to go.

[JeffJ]

I think if you could really get them for 2 hours then most of it should be spent on mindset. The ballistic rabbit's foot syndrome is what you're dealing with here. Tom Givens is known for doing a really good job of getting his students to think about actually shooting people, which will make them want to practive. Once you realize that the gun is to shoot somebody with - not scare somebody, not snuggle to make you feel good - but to shoot a smelly bad guy in the face with it's easier to find 4 times a year to practice.

[NickA]

I would say that those of us on this website are in the vast minority.

I don't know what the actual numbers are on people that have prevailed in shootings or gunfights who were completely untrained (I would love to know these numbers) but I suspect it is a significantly larger number than those that have been through 400 hours of professional pistol instruction.

So people can and do defend themselves with guns who just keep them in the drawer and who don't really practice. This is the reality, and what we here on this forum feel about it isn't going to change it a helluva lot.
Great point, we're for sure the smallest minority, preparing for the least likely, but lots of people do fine with less.
On a lighter note, from a local CHL instructor (don't know if he actually came up with it), at the end of an initial CHL class:
"Soon after submitting your application to the Texas DPS, you should receive a license to carry a concealed handgun, the world’s least lethal firearm.

If you find yourself in a situation with no defensive options left, other than to use the handgun, your ability to combine the ineffectiveness of the weapon, with grossly inadequate training, and a total disregard for the need to practice, will probably be enough to ensure that I won’t be seeing you in a renewal class. - - Go with God."



Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[bcauz3y]

I wouldn't suggest a gun to anyone that isn't willing to take the responsibility of defensive handgun ownership serious enough to get at least basic training, and practice a few times a year.

If they practice a few times a year, and receive basic training in defensive gun use, then any modern auto loader in at least 9mm will do.

I agree with this.

[UNK]

I would say that those of us on this website are in the vast minority.

I don't know what the actual numbers are on people that have prevailed in shootings or gunfights who were completely untrained (I would love to know these numbers) but I suspect it is a significantly larger number than those that have been through 400 hours of professional pistol instruction.


I don't know what your definition of completely untrained is but the "Armed Citizen" section of NRA magazine has people every month who I would guess a substantial portion of, outside of possibly the military, have never had any "Formal" training. I know I have taught several people to shoot who have never fired a firearm before. And two I distinctly recall didn't even know if their firearms were loaded. They were.

[LHS]

Being the office 'gun guy', I frequently have people ask me about guns for home defense. I get a lot of "What kind of shotgun should I get for home defense?" Now I love shotguns, but I've seen what happens when someone short-strokes an 870 under stress, and long guns present their own challenges in terms of secure storage with children in the house. Plus, almost everyone thinks they can just load up some #7-1/2 birdshot and be good to go without endangering people on the other side of the drywall.

I almost always end up recommending that people get a decent 9mm autoloader, some kind of device to secure it (i.e. a Gunvault) and then get TRAINING. If they insist on a shotgun, I tend to steer them towards an 11-87 for simplicity's sake, and recommend Federal LE132 00 buckshot. And then I invite them to go shooting with me.