Research on handgun/holster combination and speed of 1st round

[Erick Gelhaus]

This study - Holster and Handgun: Does Equipment Effect Response Time? - can be found here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Blake12/publication/326986137_Holster_and_Handgun_Does_Equipment_Effec t_Response_Time/links/5b7094a192851ca65056d5b9/Holster-and-Handgun-Does-Equipment-Effect-Response-Time.pdf

I'm familiar with one of the researchers. If you are responsible for selecting, approving equipment or selecting, approving firearms it is a worthwhile read.

[HCM]

This study - Holster and Handgun: Does Equipment Effect Response Time? - can be found here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Blake12/publication/326986137_Holster_and_Handgun_Does_Equipment_Effec t_Response_Time/links/5b7094a192851ca65056d5b9/Holster-and-Handgun-Does-Equipment-Effect-Response-Time.pdf

I'm familiar with one of the researchers. If you are responsible for selecting, approving equipment or selecting, approving firearms it is a worthwhile read.

I’d like to see their future research on thigh holsters.

[BK14]

I’d like to see their future research on thigh holsters.

Just switched back from a single leg drop to the UBL for draw speed. It’s not significant, but it’s a difference for sure, especially with dynamic movement and vehicles involved.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Interesting. Although the difference between the two may be “statistically significant” for research purposes, I question whether they are significant in the real world.

I would also be curious about the difference between these two holsters (neither of which I personally consider acceptable for uniformed LE use due to different drawbacks) and a Level III (Level IV? I find the retention screw as a “level” to be a BS argument, personally...) holster such as the Safariland 6360/7360, discontinued Safariland Raptor, Uncle Mike’s Pro 3, or Safariland 070. I am disregarding the SERPA holsters because...SERPA.

Personally I think that the trade off of a slightly slower draw in exchange for drastically increased security is a small price to pay, and the automatic locking feature of the 7360, Pro 3, and Raptor holsters immediately upon “speed reholster” is a necessity in LE work—you’re going to roll around a lot more than you’re going to draw against the drop, and if you need to go from guns to hands in a hurry, you need a system that gives some level of retention immediately upon reholster.

All in all, just like “shootability” may not be the primary consideration in a carry gun, my personal opinion is that a quick draw is not the primary metric upon which a duty holster should be judged.

[LSP552]

Draw speed can be critical, and I’m aware of several people at my old agency (including me) who are alive because they were able to draw quickly and get hits before the other guy. Like most things, it’s environment and situation dependent. Are you working alone with backup 30 minutes away or are there 4 people on every call?

One thing that often gets lost in the debate over speed vs security is that many people wearing security holsters just don’t practice enough to be proficient enough to draw quickly under stress or movement. It doesn’t take much realistic scenario training to see this.

What a firearms instructor can demonstrate and what the average patrol person can do under stress isn’t always the same.

[fwrun]

One thing that often gets lost in the debate over speed vs security is that many people wearing security holsters just don’t practice enough to be proficient enough to draw quickly under stress or movement. It doesn’t take much realistic scenario training to see this.

Five presentations before each shift while gearing up. My FTO told me this day 1 and I still do it. Puts a patrolman far ahead of his peers.

[FNFAN]

Interesting. Although the difference between the two may be “statistically significant” for research purposes, I question whether they are significant in the real world.

I would also be curious about the difference between these two holsters (neither of which I personally consider acceptable for uniformed LE use due to different drawbacks) and a Level III (Level IV? I find the retention screw as a “level” to be a BS argument, personally...) holster such as the Safariland 6360/7360, discontinued Safariland Raptor, Uncle Mike’s Pro 3, or Safariland 070. I am disregarding the SERPA holsters because...SERPA.

Personally I think that the trade off of a slightly slower draw in exchange for drastically increased security is a small price to pay, and the automatic locking feature of the 7360, Pro 3, and Raptor holsters immediately upon “speed reholster” is a necessity in LE work—you’re going to roll around a lot more than you’re going to draw against the drop, and if you need to go from guns to hands in a hurry, you need a system that gives some level of retention immediately upon reholster.

All in all, just like “shootability” may not be the primary consideration in a carry gun, my personal opinion is that a quick draw is not the primary metric upon which a duty holster should be judged.

That's an excellent post. I agree 100%.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Draw speed can be critical, and I’m aware of several people at my old agency (including me) who are alive because they were able to draw quickly and get hits before the other guy. Like most things, it’s environment and situation dependent. Are you working alone with backup 30 minutes away or are there 4 people on every call?

One thing that often gets lost in the debate over speed vs security is that many people wearing security holsters just don’t practice enough to be proficient enough to draw quickly under stress or movement. It doesn’t take much realistic scenario training to see this.

What a firearms instructor can demonstrate and what the average patrol person can do under stress isn’t always the same.

I practiced a lot with the 070 when I carried it, and always felt that I could be smoother/faster/etc. But there were a handful of times on the street where my gun just "magically" appeared in my hand.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

One of the, “hacks,” I’ve used with security holsters of various types, and especially the felt lined Safariland types, work best for me (with long arms) if I suck my elbow in close to my body, and twist the grip towards me.

That helps get the gun out quickly.


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[Vista461]

I’m quicker with my current 6360 for my G17/TLR1 than I was with my 6280 M&P no light combo I used on an old part time job. That suede always hung me up if the draw wasn’t perfect and I have enough practice with the 6360 that I defeat the SLS and ALS in one smooth movement and out it comes. So for me personally I think the Level 3 has only upside.

[TheNewbie]

Did anyone use the Safariland Raptor series? If so, how did you like them ?

[AMC]

Did anyone use the Safariland Raptor series? If so, how did you like them ?

We used them for several years when we converted from Berettas to Sig's. We first tried to use an identical holster, the Safarland 070, but about 20% of them wouldn't ever break in. This was with 226R's.....holster didn't really accommodate the rail. We then went to the Raptor. Easy transition, since the draw stroke was nearly identical. Not ideal, though....and then a Sergeant almost lost his gun in a violent struggle out of a holster with a broken SLS hood spring....went to the ALS/SLS combo with the hood guard afterward. Not a huge fan of the hood guard, but love the ALS system.

Anyway...the Raptor was okay, especially as a transition from the 070. No good in the long run, in my opinion, because there is no WML capability.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I had issues with the raptor that were not issues with the 070. With small hands and short fingers, popping open snaps was fine, but holding the middle release against spring tension affected my master grip. The SLS/ALS combo is far superior, IMO.

[TheNewbie]

I had issues with the raptor that were not issues with the 070. With small hands and short fingers, popping open snaps was fine, but holding the middle release against spring tension affected my master grip. The SLS/ALS combo is far superior, IMO.

I thought some raptors only had to be rocked back to get the gun out.


Would you say the 070 is the most secure holster? I'm an ALS guy all the way but I have a pal who is still 070 all the way.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I thought some raptors only had to be rocked back to get the gun out.


Would you say the 070 is the most secure holster? I'm an ALS guy all the way but I have a pal who is still 070 all the way.

The level 3/4 Raptors have to be rocked back too, but to get to that point, you have to push the middle finger, “GLS-esque,” button.


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[AMC]

The level 3/4 Raptors have to be rocked back too, but to get to that point, you have to push the middle finger, “GLS-esque,” button.


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Our Raptors had the SLS hood and were rock-back only.

I used an 070 with a Beretta for years. It was a good holster, if you trained with it. I won the class shoot off in my Gunsite 250 class using a 92G from an 070 holster. That said, the ALS is the best duty holster yet devised, in my opinion. With the SLS hood, as secure as an 070, and faster. My opinion, YMMV.

[JustOneGun]

Interesting. Although the difference between the two may be “statistically significant” for research purposes, I question whether they are significant in the real world.

I would also be curious about the difference between these two holsters (neither of which I personally consider acceptable for uniformed LE use due to different drawbacks) and a Level III (Level IV? I find the retention screw as a “level” to be a BS argument, personally...) holster such as the Safariland 6360/7360, discontinued Safariland Raptor, Uncle Mike’s Pro 3, or Safariland 070. I am disregarding the SERPA holsters because...SERPA.

Personally I think that the trade off of a slightly slower draw in exchange for drastically increased security is a small price to pay, and the automatic locking feature of the 7360, Pro 3, and Raptor holsters immediately upon “speed reholster” is a necessity in LE work—you’re going to roll around a lot more than you’re going to draw against the drop, and if you need to go from guns to hands in a hurry, you need a system that gives some level of retention immediately upon reholster.

All in all, just like “shootability” may not be the primary consideration in a carry gun, my personal opinion is that a quick draw is not the primary metric upon which a duty holster should be judged.


I believe that there is more to the holsters in this experiment than just speed. I think the speed is just the easy metric to test. I trained on the SLS and switched to an ALS as an instructor. I had the chance not only to shoot both for years, but I got to see data points from a 1,000+ officers shoot each for years. Not just shooting the AZPOST qual but AOT up to and including FoF.

One of the takeaways I have is the ALS is faster because it's easier to remove the retention. That will be true no matter the other retention features one uses. So it's not just speed. It's the amount of fumbled, failed and screwed up draws that occur across the bell curve of officer's ability. With the ALS the numbers of fumbled draws went down drastically with those officers that just, show up to qual and never/rarely train. On the rare occasion that the ALS jammed, almost universally because the officer pulled up on the pistol before bringing the thumb switch back enough, it was quite easy to remedy. That was not true for the SLS. What we found was that officers that had a panic response after a fumbled ALS draw also went drastically down.

I will take the speed increase because I don't get to choose how much time I have. The bad guy, fate, etc does. But the 2nd and 3rd order effects of that speed that I talk about above are just as important to a successful gunfight, IMO of course. As far as retention being more important? Maybe. It's certainly a balance. Luckily most major holster makers will give a complete menu of retention in various configurations. So we can pick our level and our combination of holsters that are quicker while being harder to steal.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I thought some raptors only had to be rocked back to get the gun out.


Would you say the 070 is the most secure holster? I'm an ALS guy all the way but I have a pal who is still 070 all the way.

Level II raptors did not have the middle finger release. Level III did.

The 070 is secure, but the two snaps have to be manually engaged to re-secure.


Our Raptors had the SLS hood and were rock-back only.

I used an 070 with a Beretta for years. It was a good holster, if you trained with it. I won the class shoot off in my Gunsite 250 class using a 92G from an 070 holster. That said, the ALS is the best duty holster yet devised, in my opinion. With the SLS hood, as secure as an 070, and faster. My opinion, YMMV.

I concur.