Reducing weight of duty gear and back injurues

[iWander]

We're attempting to lighten our duty belts and gear. Chief is working with Workers Comp to improve our ergos and working conditions to reduce overall injuries. We're doing evaluations next week to choose a polymer frame 9mm to replace our current P series Sigs, switching to light weight ASPs & cuffs, and considering outer vest carriers without gear mounted on it. Putting Tasers, radios, etc on the outer vest isn't compatible with our rifle rated vests.
Anyone have other suggestions, especially with durable but lightweight duty belts? Need a nylon look. Thanks

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[BigD]

We're attempting to lighten our duty belts and gear. Chief is working with Workers Comp to improve our ergos and working conditions to reduce overall injuries. We're doing evaluations next week to choose a polymer frame 9mm to replace our current P series Sigs, switching to light weight ASPs & cuffs, and considering outer vest carriers without gear mounted on it. Putting Tasers, radios, etc on the outer vest isn't compatible with our rifle rated vests.
Anyone have other suggestions, especially with durable but lightweight duty belts? Need a nylon look. Thanks

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I was never patrol, but suspenders save my back when I have to carry metal frame pistol, two mags, cuffs, ASP and radio in plainclothes. I think you are on the right track by trying to get as much weight on the shoulders as possible.

I'll add something else. Having had to learn to deal with herniated discs in both the neck and lower back, I've become a big fan of the McKenzie Method, which says posture (seated, sleeping, and standing) has a lot to do with it most back and neck issues. Most cop cars don't have very ergonomic seats. Lumbar rolls or inserts would help. Once you get used to them, you don't want to drive a long time without them.

[Lon]

Quite a few of our guys wear suspenders. I’d explore that option.

[TheNewbie]

I wear Bianchi Accumold gear, it cuts down on the weight. You can get the leather look or nylon look.

I dumped the ASP a long time ago. Not just for weight, but for space on my small waist. We can carry OC but we do not have tasers.

One thing I've found is that losing weight has actually made my belt feel lighter. Obviously it's not lighter but I guess it just fits better and carries better.

[iWander]

I was never patrol, but suspenders save my back when I have to carry metal frame pistol, two mags, cuffs, ASP and radio in plainclothes. I think you are on the right track by trying to get as much weight on the shoulders as possible.

I'll add something else. Having had to learn to deal with herniated discs in both the neck and lower back, I've become a big fan of the McKenzie Method, which says posture (seated, sleeping, and standing) has a lot to do with it most back and neck issues. Most cop cars don't have very ergonomic seats. Lumbar rolls or inserts would help. Once you get used to them, you don't want to drive a long time without them.

Thanks! I'll look up the McKinzie.

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[Erick Gelhaus]

Polymer framed guns - that work - and alloy cuffs won't hurt. While I carried expandable batons, including a lt wt one, I'd not willingly go back to doing so. If you need an impact weapon, you need the heft that goes with a real one. We had a fight that damn turned out disastorous for an out numbered cop because of an alloy ASP.

Suspenders might well be a good idea. Based on issues that stemmed from 18 months in an Interceptor vest, I'm not a fan of external armor carriers and hanging crap on my shoulders.

The Bianchi AccuMold gear is viable. My belt is a mix of their gear, BladeTech, Eleven10s, and Surefire.

[TheNewbie]

Polymer framed guns - that work - and alloy cuffs won't hurt. While I carried expandable batons, including a lt wt one, I'd not willingly go back to doing so. If you need an impact weapon, you need the heft that goes with a real one. We had a fight that damn turned out disastorous for an out numbered cop because of an alloy ASP.

Suspenders might well be a good idea. Based on issues that stemmed from 18 months in an Interceptor vest, I'm not a fan of external armor carriers and hanging crap on my shoulders.

The Bianchi AccuMold gear is viable. My belt is a mix of their gear, BladeTech, Eleven10s, and Surefire.

What did you not like about the vest?

[KevH]

Changing to a polymer frame pistol may save a couple ounces, but I doubt it will have that much of an impact.

ASP's, whether steel or aluminum, do almost more harm than good and in my opinion (and many others) are a liability. A straight stick or if you must a Peacekeeper work well.

I've gone down the aluminum handcuff route. They work great for a detective in plainclothes or some other assignment where you rarely handcuff people. For patrol? Forget them as your primary. I now carry a regular set of steel Peerless backed up by my aluminum Peerless set in a double cuff case in the 1 o'clock position.


My 2 cents is lightening the actual equipment doesn't work. Get the crap off your belt you rarely (or don't) use and put it in more ergonomic locations. Get rid of the expandable baton (useless) and use a ring with a straight stick. Get everything off your belt between 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.


You would be amazed when you look critically at your duty gear how much of it you don't need.

[secondstoryguy]

The external armor carriers with load bearing ability help loads with lower back pain. They are also a lot cooler than concealed armor.

[jnc36rcpd]

We went to expandable batons because they were "convenient" and because a standard baton or a PR-24 was so clumsy and difficult to ring when you dismounted the cruiser. Effectiveness never entered into the discussion. Today, the expandable baton is pretty much a check-the-box liability protection unless,God forbid, you might actually need a baton to, well, like...hit a dangerous offender.

I've considered alloy cuffs as I carry handcuffs off duty and two pair on duty.I think more agencies and officers would carry them if they worked as well as standard cuffs. I understand that an allied agency with many people on foot and bicycle patrol issued them, but many people purchased their own standard cuffs.

[BehindBlueI's]

Suspenders are popular with the guys with back issues.

Yoga and stretching is free and even more effective.

[Poconnor]

After I tore a disc in my lower back I switched to a curved safariland nylon duty belt. I added the pad to the inside of the belt and the pad under the UBL on the holster. Together with suspenders it allowed me to continue to work. I would be careful about lightening equipment too much. I would not use ASP handcuffs or the lightweight baton. I would look hard at the vehicles. I swear part of my problem was that crown Vic’s were too small inside. I better for a police Tahoe. If your chief really wants to prevent injuries I would have everybody evaluated by a good physical therapist and have each officers start an individual PT program. I would add yoga in hindsight. I think if I knew then what I know now I don’t think I would have so many injuries. A stretching strap is your friend

[iWander]

After I tore a disc in my lower back I switched to a curved safariland nylon duty belt. I added the pad to the inside of the belt and the pad under the UBL on the holster. Together with suspenders it allowed me to continue to work. I would be careful about lightening equipment too much. I would not use ASP handcuffs or the lightweight baton. I would look hard at the vehicles. I swear part of my problem was that crown Vic’s were too small inside. I better for a police Tahoe. If your chief really wants to prevent injuries I would have everybody evaluated by a good physical therapist and have each officers start an individual PT program. I would add yoga in hindsight. I think if I knew then what I know now I don’t think I would have so many injuries. A stretching strap is your friendFunny you and Blues mention yoga and stretching. I too have herniated discs and other back/ neck problems, as well as cop knee from getting in and out of cars for decades. I'm working on a yoga and mindfulness program for the officers, and reinstating our ability to work out in the gym in our PD basement while on duty. Our staffing is finally almost back to normal levels. We used to allow the workouts as long as they take their gear, radios, uniforms with them so they're ready to respond, and we have two others on duty.

Our last 2 Crown Vics are leaving in the spring. I agree they, and even smaller Impalas, Taurus, etc, caused many cumulative back and knee injuries over the years. My back feels so much better now that I'm assigned to a Tahoe. We have several Tahoes in the fleet are slowly transitioning to Explorers and F150s. The large SUVs, like the Tahoe, bring their own issues for smaller officers, though, like line of sight and hip pain with stepping into them with full gear.

The Chief is determined to transition rop the light weight batons. We've not had issues with the lightweight Peerless cuffs.

And as far as reducing weight with the polymer guns, it can make a difference. Going from our heaviest fully loaded pistol currently issued, the 226 in 40, to the lightest of the guns in our upcoming eval, the G19, reduced weight by almost a pound. Anyone that says losing a pound of your load doesn't make a difference has never carried a duty belt for a living.

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[deputyG23]

Funny you and Blues mention yoga and stretching. I too have herniated discs and other back/ neck problems, as well as cop knee from getting in and out of cars for decades. I'm working on a yoga and mindfulness program for the officers, and reinstating our ability to work out in the gym in our PD basement while on duty. Our staffing is finally almost back to normal levels. We used to allow the workouts as long as they take their gear, radios, uniforms with them so they're ready to respond, and we have two others on duty.

Our last 2 Crown Vics are leaving in the spring. I agree they, and even smaller Impalas, Taurus, etc, caused many cumulative back and knee injuries over the years. My back feels so much better now that I'm assigned to a Tahoe. We have several Tahoes in the fleet are slowly transitioning to Explorers and F150s. The large SUVs, like the Tahoe, bring their own issues for smaller officers, though, like line of sight and hip pain with stepping into them with full gear.

The Chief is determined to transition rop the light weight batons. We've not had issues with the lightweight Peerless cuffs.

And as far as reducing weight with the polymer guns, it can make a difference. Going from our heaviest fully loaded pistol currently issued, the 226 in 40, to the lightest of the guns in our upcoming eval, the G19, reduced weight by almost a pound. Anyone that says losing a pound of your load doesn't make a difference has never carried a duty belt for a living.

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I am thankful for the Explorers. Getting in and out of a CV/Chevy Caprice, among other things, took its toll on me over twenty years of field work. Herniated disk at L4/L5 in the winter of '15 and was out for six weeks.
I moved everything off the back of my duty belt up front until about a year ago and just then moved my cuff pouch to about 8:00. I drive a desk more often than not these days and try to be careful. If it happens again, I will have to explore some other options. Need to do the stretching/yoga thing....

[txdpd]

The 5.11 Zero G plates might be worth looking into as well. Apparently 5.11 bought the design from Atlas. I had a pair of the Atlas plates and they lived up to the hype. Unfortunately they were not durable. I haven't pulled the trigger on them yet, so I can't comment directly on the 5.11 product.

[TheNewbie]

You guys talk about knee problems getting out of crown Vics. I wonder if that's part/contributer to the issue with my left knee and leg hurting sometimes after exercise.

[iWander]

The 5.11 Zero G plates might be worth looking into as well. Apparently 5.11 bought the design from Atlas. I had a pair of the Atlas plates and they lived up to the hype. Unfortunately they were not durable. I haven't pulled the trigger on them yet, so I can't comment directly on the 5.11 product.I have a set on order!

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[iWander]

You guys talk about knee problems getting out of crown Vics. I wonder if that's part/contributer to the issue with my left knee and leg hurting sometimes after exercise.I've always said the most common cop injuries, in order, are:
1. Lower back
2. Left knee
3. Hips
4. Right shoulder

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[BigD]

I've always said the most common cop injuries, in order, are:
1. Lower back


Stands to reason, since more than 80% of Americans will experience back pain at some point, usually between age 30 and 50. I'm sure some are convinced that a metal framed pistol or stainless steel cuffs or the job caused their back pain, but most of us are going to have back pain at some point no matter what we do unless we practice very good spinal hygiene.

I've got back issues that have nothing to do with wearing a duty belt. But if I was a patrol officer, would I think my back issues were related to the job....?

Kudos to your chief (for trying to reduce worker comps claims), but there's much more to it than lightening your loads.

(If I ever take an assignment that requires wearing plates regularly, I'm going to build in some lumbar support to the back plate somehow. Plates are perfect for flattening your spine and removing the lordosis.)

[andre3k]

This thread made me take a look at my duty belt. Tossed it on the scale and it came out to 13lbs. More than what I thought it would be. That's a lot of weight adding stress to your lower back for 8 -12 hrs a day.

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[iWander]

Stands to reason, since more than 80% of Americans will experience back pain at some point, usually between age 30 and 50. I'm sure some are convinced that a metal framed pistol or stainless steel cuffs or the job caused their back pain, but most of us are going to have back pain at some point no matter what we do unless we practice very good spinal hygiene.

I've got back issues that have nothing to do with wearing a duty belt. But if I was a patrol officer, would I think my back issues were related to the job....?

Kudos to your chief (for trying to reduce worker comps claims), but there's much more to it than lightening your loads.

(If I ever take an assignment that requires wearing plates regularly, I'm going to build in some lumbar support to the back plate somehow. Plates are perfect for flattening your spine and removing the lordosis.)

Yeah, thanks for stating the obvious. If you've read the entire thread, no one's said it was solely about guns and cuffs, but every bit helps. I'm grateful for a progressive chief that wants to improve our environment and health. If a part of it is equipment, which needs replacing anyway, then I'll take it

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[BJJ]

Yoga and stretching is free and even more effective.


This. A couple of years into my police career, I had lower back pain that was so bad, I was afraid I was going to have to find another job. I tried suspenders and they didn’t help. The thing that did help was stretching and strengthening. Goblet squats, kettlebell swings and good ole toe touching made a huge difference and still do. Another great resource is the book, “Treat your own back” by Dr Mackenzie.

[KeeFus]

I've always said the most common cop injuries, in order, are:
1. Lower back
2. Left knee
3. Hips
4. Right shoulder

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While I don’t have back issues, my hips and knee give me the most problems. My hips ache after wearing a duty belt all day and my right knee sounds like Rice Krispies when I climb stairs. I’m now experiencing tennis elbow which flared up yesterday after shooting a 1911.

800mg of Motrin usually fixes all that for most of the day.

I’m not a fan of suspenders or the load bearing vests...They are ugly as shit...I guess I’m just a traditionalist when it comes to how they look. I prefer the cleaner look of a uniform but I’d do yoga before wearing suspenders or a load bearing vest. I’m just old (47) and salty, and ready to retire.

[Dr. No]

If you're not already, look into 9mm pistols instead of a 40 or 45. That + a polymer pistol will save some weight.

Belt pad under the regular duty belt will go a long way as well. I'm going to the snake eater tactical belt setup for that very reason. My SWAT rig is a padded belt with a thin inner and it is a massive improvement over a duty belt or my old swat belt + a stiff inner belt.

Look at setting up duty belts so there's nothing on your back. Best thing I ever did was get the damn cuffs off my back and put a double pouch up front. Make sure your holster isn't pushing into the seat and tilting your hips while you sit. See about getting guys keyboards to write reports when they're using their computers in their car. Overall just research some of the ergonomics studies other departments have already done. No need to reinvent the wheel...

[deputyG23]

While I don’t have back issues, my hips and knee give me the most problems. My hips ache after wearing a duty belt all day and my right knee sounds like Rice Krispies when I climb stairs. I’m now experiencing tennis elbow which flared up yesterday after shooting a 1911.

800mg of Motrin usually fixes all that for most of the day.

I’m not a fan of suspenders or the load bearing vests...They are ugly as shit...I guess I’m just a traditionalist when it comes to how they look. I prefer the cleaner look of a uniform but I’d do yoga before wearing suspenders or a load bearing vest. I’m just old (47) and salty, and ready to retire.

I agree with you on the traditional uniform look. Back when I had my back issue, I was strongly considering ponying up $$ for one of the Back Defender systems until I wondered how one would quickly unhitch them to respond to a Code 2+ toilet run....

[BehindBlueI's]

Anyone that says losing a pound of your load doesn't make a difference has never carried a duty belt for a living.


It might make a difference to some. It makes no difference to me. I've carried a duty belt and/or significantly heavier loads for a living most of my adult life.

[txdpd]

I back tracked some of my left knee problems to my surefire v70 flashlight that was at roughly 10 o'clock. The base of the holster was digging into my hip flexors and impeding their function. It got the point where I could flex my thigh 0-30 degrees and above 90 degrees, but 30 to 90 degrees was a dead zone. If you have equipment on the front of your belt that digs into the tops of your thighs it might cause some issues.

[Rex G]

Add me to the list of those recommending abdominal and lower back exercises, and stretching. I never did actual yoga, but if someone needs a “system” to motivate the exercises and stretching, well, yoga is a system.

My right knee was gimpy going in, and more gimpy when I retired. It held up, well enough, with careful self-management, and no cutting by any knee-hackers.

For most of my nearly 34 years in uniform, I kept everything on my hips, or forward, so that when sitting, nothing but the belt was behind my back. A Safariland buckle-less belt helped me to achieve that. I retired with a seemingly intact, healthy lower back.

I kept a baton ring on my belt, for the issued straight 26” hardwood stick. I did have several collapsible batons, too, over time, but never added a sheath for them, to my belt. The only one worth anything as an impact weapon, while expanded, was the 26” steel Monadnock.

During my final late spring/summer, I made the commitment to wear a rifle plate carrier, with multi-curved Level III plates, IIIA kevlar backers, and IIIA side panels, for the full duty shift. I kept the carrier slick, except for a radio holder. I was starting to feel it, in my back and knees, by late November, after about six months of wearing the plates. At that time, I started burning about a month of leave, after which I worked a week, then burned another month of leave, and retired. So, it seems that the plates may have started to become a bit much, for my aging knees, and perhaps my back, but the experiment did not last more than six months. (Notably, I have a bit of kyphosis and more than a bit of scoliosis, so what for most would be an evenly-distributed load cannot be “balanced.” So, my upper and middle back have always been “screwed.”)

To be clear, the apparent effects of wearing the plates did not hasten my retirement. Had I wished to keep working, I could have simply reverted to wearing soft armor.

The ailments that significantly contributed to my decision to retire were in my shoulders, and right hand and wrist. By 2011, .40 recoil was becoming a bit much to tolerate, in large doses. I stopped using my P229R .40 Snap & Whip duty pistol in October 2015, a month after my chief OK’ed 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge. By October 2017, 100 rounds of 9mm, when fired with a G19, had become too much. (A G17 was still tolerable, as was an all-steel 1911, with .45 ACP.) I believe that using a .44 Magnum duty revolver, for a year, March 1984 to March 1985, and later using a .41 Mag duty revolver, from late 1985 to some time in 1989, had much to do with the years-later ailing of my right thumb, hand, and wrist.

[P30]

Some of my favorite stretches and exercises for the knees and the back:

Stretching for the knees:

https://fitzuhause.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Quadrzeps-dehnen-e1512084558260.png

https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/V79mWjf6Xjup28tDXPGzoWBUVcU/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2013/03/12/2/192/1922729/2a8d7475eae1d6a3_propped-up-hamstring-stretch/i/Standing-Hamstring-Stretch.jpg


Stretching for the back:

29207
youtube.com/watch?v=I1rWQuaoe9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1rWQuaoe9Y)

https://www.bergzeit.de/magazin/uploads/2017/03/Dehnen_Brustmuskel-1.jpg


Strengthening the abs for the back (crunches):

https://workoutlabs.com/train/svg.php?id=6104

[BigD]

Some of my favorite stretches and exercises for the knees and the back:


Strengthening the abs for the back (crunches):

https://workoutlabs.com/train/svg.php?id=6104

It's well document that crunches can lead to herniated discs and lower back pain.

https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/the-man-who-wants-to-kill-crunches/

While there are lots of ways to injure a back, the sit-up is an easily preventable one. According to his research, a crunch or traditional sit-up generates at least 3,350 newtons (the equivalent of 340 kg) of compressive force on the spine. The U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health states that anything above 3,300 newtons is unsafe.

So McGill suggests replacing sit-ups with exercises to strengthen the core while not bending the spine: bridges, planks, leg extensions, bird dogs, and “stir the pot.” The bird dog, for instance, simply involves getting on all fours and, while keeping the core muscles tight, extending the opposite arm and leg, then switching limbs. “Stir the pot” is a more complex movement: moving shoulders in a small circle while in a prone push-up position with forearms balanced on an exercise ball.

The results of McGill’s decades of spine research is slowly being accepted outside the worlds of academia and elite athletics. Ian Crosby of the Calgary Fire Department saw the shift first-hand. He’s on a committee of the International Association of Fire Fighters that establishes criteria for the make-or-break fitness test. A few years ago, they reviewed the annual sit-up test, which involved doing steady crunches in time to a metronome. The problem, for Crosby, is that anyone being assessed “will train to get better. And that involves repeated bouts of sit-ups.” So last year, after talking to Stuart McGill and other experts, the IAFF dropped the sit-up in favour of the prone plank—basically a static push-up that will leave the unfit trembling with fatigue.

[BigD]

Matt Wenning, champion powerlifter, has been able to reduce worker's comp claims in fire departments by getting them stronger.

https://1812columbus.com/from-wheelchair-to-world-records-matt-wenning-uses-his-powers-for-good/

Around the same time, Wenning relocated to Columbus to train at the world-renowned, invite-only powerlifting gym, Westside Barbell. Before long, Wenning’s work with the military gained notoriety amongst the local fire departments. The first department to approach Wenning was Washington Township in Dublin. Over the past ten years, he has been collecting both the strength and insurance data for the department. Notably, as the firefighters’ strength numbers have gone up, Washington Township’s insurance expenses have gone down. When Wenning began to coach and program workouts for their 135 firefighters, the average deadlift was under 200 pounds. Today, the average deadlift has doubled to just under 400 pounds, and the department is spending $250,000 less on insurance costs.

[UNM1136]

I agree that strength training is important, so is reducing the load. One thing that REALLY helped was this:

http://www.emdomusa.com/Emdom-MM-CM-Belt-p/eu116.htm

Since black buckles are no longer available, some rattlecan therapy is likely in order.

I have had Bianchi, Eagle, and Tactical Taylor gear (Logan and I had lunch a couple of times in his hometown where I was a new cop.), This Emdom belt, despite the color of the buckles, is the lightest duty belt, I have had, bar none, and with my Wilderness Ring belt with the correct velcro sewn to it by the Wilderness. For the last decade or so this belt combination has resulted in a feeling that my duty gear has been welded to my hips. Maybe if we created enough of a storm we could convince the manufacturer of the buckles to offer black again...

I kid you not, this is the lightest by far belt I have had. I am on my third in 16 years, not because of problems of the belt; rather my expanding waistline...

pat

[iWander]

Great info and suggestions so far. Please keep them coming!

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[KPD]

I carried a P229 for the better part of 20 years. My back and hip pain started getting so bad a couple of years ago there were days I went to work carrying just a J frame or LCR. Switching to a polymer framed gun (VP9) made it possible for me to pack a real gun every day again.

I hate ASP handcuffs and lightweight batons of any type. I carried ASP handcuffs for maybe two shifts when I worked patrol. One good scuffle where the ratchet got twisted outside the cheek plate ruined me on those handcuffs. It can happen with any brand, but it takes lots more force with an all metal handcuff. Lightweight batons simply lack enough mass to be effective.

Getting gear to the front of your belt and/or on a vest helps tremendously.

Stretching, exercise and taking care of yourself helps more...........just my .02 cents worth!

[P30]

It's well document that crunches can lead to herniated discs and lower back pain.

[...]

While there are lots of ways to injure a back, the sit-up is an easily preventable one. According to his research, a crunch or traditional sit-up generates at least 3,350 newtons (the equivalent of 340 kg) of compressive force on the spine. The U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health states that anything above 3,300 newtons is unsafe.

So McGill suggests replacing sit-ups with exercises to strengthen the core while not bending the spine: bridges, planks, leg extensions, bird dogs, and “stir the pot.” [...] So last year, after talking to Stuart McGill and other experts, the IAFF dropped the sit-up in favour of the prone plank—basically a static push-up that will leave the unfit trembling with fatigue.
BigD, I think your post contains important truth. It depends on fine points, if the exercises are beneficial.

I try to describe the fine points of the exercise which I've called crunches in my previous post:

At the beginning of the exercise, press the lumbar spine on the ground. This corresponds with tensioning the abs and brings the pelvis in a better position.
Lift the upper body only so high that the shoulder blades don't touch the ground. Not higher.
Support your head with your hands, don't pull it. The head should be at an angle of about 45° to the ground.
Hold the position for about 10 seconds, then lay down the upper body. Relax a few seconds.
Repeat 10 times.

The exercise was taught to me by physiotherapists. I strongly recommend for people with pain in the knees or the back to go to a physiotherapist in order to learn the exercises correctly.

By "crunches", I do not mean "sit-ups". In the article about Prof. McGill which you've linked, they are identified. But they are not the same. I don't like sit-ups but I like the type of crunches which I've just described.

Planks: Yes, I fully agree. They are very good. If one does not like crunches, they are a good alternative. I think their effect is similar, they strengthen the abs. I do both exercises.

PS:
I've found this video. First, she demonstrates crunches and then sit-ups. Her kind of crunches are similar to "mine" but not identical (e.g. she does not hold the position for 10 s).
youtube.com/watch?v=rSYVSmlmT-c
And, interestlingly, she shows planks, too.

[andre3k]

When I was in motors we had some old heads that were all about weight reduction. Their duty belt consisted of a gun, mag pouch and a radio. Cuffs? Hell no, that means you have to arrest people.

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[txdpd]

I’m not going to say that absence of proof is proof of anything, but where all these spinal injuries from crunches and sit-ups actually occurring? McGill might know his trade, but he preys on fear about injuries and spreads paranoia. There are risk associated with lifting weights with spinal flexion, if you’re moving heavy stuff in the real world it’s going to be with a rounded back. You can train that in the gym with a healthy dose of common sense in a controlled environment, or you can roll the dice on the streets.

Crunches, Jefferson curls, straight leg deadlifts, upper good mornings, and sandbag lifts might be on the naughty list for spinal flexion, but they might save you a lot of pain and suffering too.

[peterb]

Another look at sitting and back pain: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/08/13/636025077/to-fix-that-pain-in-your-back-you-might-have-to-change-the-way-you-sit

[P30]

fear about injuries
My physiotherapist says, most joint problems come from too little movement.

[UNM1136]

I agree that strength training is important, so is reducing the load. One thing that REALLY helped was this:

http://www.emdomusa.com/Emdom-MM-CM-Belt-p/eu116.htm

Since black buckles are no longer available, some rattlecan therapy is likely in order.

I have had Bianchi, Eagle, and Tactical Taylor gear (Logan and I had lunch a couple of times in his hometown where I was a new cop.), This Emdom belt, despite the color of the buckles, is the lightest duty belt, I have had, bar none, and with my Wilderness Ring belt with the correct velcro sewn to it by the Wilderness. For the last decade or so this belt combination has resulted in a feeling that my duty gear has been welded to my hips. Maybe if we created enough of a storm we could convince the manufacturer of the buckles to offer black again...

I kid you not, this is the lightest by far belt I have had. I am on my third in 16 years, not because of problems of the belt; rather my expanding waistline...

pat



Actually, duh, you can pick up another belt buckle (got a $12 Bianchi one sirring here from Kaufman's). No need for spray paint. You can also thread the appropriate of the wrong color onto a piece of webbing and have a buckle hanging from the vents of the locker door, allowing the belt to hang from the door, freeing up space in the locker.

pat

[schüler]

I recommend review/research on where you should carry constant weight. Hips, not spinal column. There is a reason every true hiking pack has a frame that uses a frame to load the hips and uses shoulders to only stabilize the load.

I personally believe using upper body to bear primary duty gear weight is not a healthy solution for uniformed patrol, i.e., guys who wear it all day long or longer. It stacks weight on spinal column, high potential to encourage poor posture and affects center of gravity for some tasks. All above is worse for officers out of shape and carrying more weight anyway. A split setup with belt and armor carrier is very doable.

Battle belt-style rigs are a nice option if you can get them approved. One of my co-workers (knee and back issues) had his uniform shirts tailored for concealed suspenders with his battle belt setup.

If you have significant chronic back pain I recommend finding a neurologist and chiro that keep up with the latest developments in their field. Drive to find one if you have to - that's what affordable co-pays are for.

As simple and dumb as it sounds... one of the best fitness mantras I know is Breathe, Relax, Align, Move. Amazing what you can catch yourself doing every minute of the day.

[Chuck Haggard]

ASP batons are damn near worthless. Lightweight ASP batons are utterly fucking worthless.

[Dr. No]

ASP batons are damn near worthless. Lightweight ASP batons are utterly fucking worthless.

Worked just fine for me. Broke both his arms. Never runs out of cartridges and is always on my belt.

Is it the same as a 36" hickory stick? Of course not.

[txdpd]

My physiotherapist says, most joint problems come from too little movement.

He probably makes his living off of the 55+ crowd that are linked by one common factor, living too long past 30. Getting old sucks. Sit at a desk, you fall apart. Lift weight, you fall apart. Run marathons, you fall apart. etc etc.


Worked just fine for me. Broke both his arms. Never runs out of cartridges and is always on my belt.

Is it the same as a 36" hickory stick? Of course not.

Which kind of makes the point. It doesn't really "work" if couldn’t break his first arm badly enough, the first time to end the fight. I don't remember where I first heard the term "indictment wand" but it's fitting term for an ASP.

[Dr. No]

Which kind of makes the point. It doesn't really "work" if couldn’t break his first arm badly enough, the first time to end the fight. I don't remember where I first heard the term "indictment wand" but it's fitting term for an ASP.

So batons don't work at all then? Rodney King didn't go down after one strike, so it was the baton's fault?

Come on man, you should know that UOF's aren't one shot stops. Especially with a committed adversary. I fought this guy over 3 blocks for about 5 minutes.. he was a locally trained MMA fighter. He had 21 warrants out and another 3 charges after he got out of the hospital. Two broken arms were not going to stop him.

Don't disagree that batons look bad, especially since everyone immediately thinks of RK.

[andre3k]

Worked just fine for me. Broke both his arms. Never runs out of cartridges and is always on my belt.

Is it the same as a 36" hickory stick? Of course not.

Mine has worked fine for me as well. I've been on the giving end many times and I'll use it before my TASER if circumstances allow. A two handed strike to the kidneys will usually induce pain compliance assuming they're not on PCP.

It don't look good on camera but if the dept don't like how it looks or the way they trained me to use it then they shouldn't issue it. Policing aint always pretty.

[KeeFus]

I had a light weight ASP that split down the body the first time I used it. The second ASP I had was the 26 inch one...I loved that one simply because it had reach. It was...ok. Now I’m regulated by policy to carry a 21 inch.

A SL20 (or similarly weighted flashlight) is the best impact weapon I have ever used or seen used. Period. I’m riding a desk now but still have the ring on my belt should I need to get out on a call. The younger generation thinks it’s funny that even during daylight hours I get out the car with that light...they just don’t know...

[UNM1136]

I had a light weight ASP that split down the body the first time I used it. The second ASP I had was the 26 inch one...I loved that one simply because it had reach. It was...ok. Now I’m regulated by policy to carry a 21 inch.

A SL20 (or similarly weighted flashlight) is the best impact weapon I have ever used or seen used. Period. I’m riding a desk now but still have the ring on my belt should I need to get out on a call. The younger generation thinks it’s funny that even during daylight hours I get out the car with that light...they just don’t know...

I have broken every ASP I have ever tried to use on someone, usually on the first swing.

As far as expandables I have used CASCO or Manadanock (I believe that they are now the same company) for almost two decades, and been much happier with them than the ASP. Currently carrying a Manadanock 26 inch Auto Lock with the mushroom head. It rattles more in use, but has not failed.

pat

[Chuck Haggard]

Worked just fine for me. Broke both his arms. Never runs out of cartridges and is always on my belt.

Is it the same as a 36" hickory stick? Of course not.

Good for you.

Breaking bones isn't what I typically need or want a baton to do. It's supposed to be used in a less than deadly force manner. When I do need to break shit I need a baton more capable.


I've seen ASPs bend on hitting people, consistently. I've seen ASPs bent in training.

Their shorter batons don't have enough mass to generate enough force to work for targets such as striking the thighs, the longer batons are fragile. You know, the places we want to hit so that we don't seriously injure people when we are trying to get them under control.

The ASP lightweight batons exaggerate all of these failings.

[KeeFus]

In regards to ASP batons...this is why I do NOT like them. Little effect...

This happened last week. Early reports are that the suspect was on a stolen vehicle, but I have not confirmed that. Of course, his family is on there saying he got his ass beat, which is not the case...and the Wake County DA is apparently leaning left...very left. She hasn't got many friends in the LE community...

https://www.wral.com/raleigh-man-seen-in-viral-police-video-facing-multiple-assault-charges/17780342/

[BigD]

By "crunches", I do not mean "sit-ups". In the article about Prof. McGill which you've linked, they are identified. But they are not the same. I don't like sit-ups but I like the type of crunches which I've just described.

Planks: Yes, I fully agree. They are very good. If one does not like crunches, they are a good alternative. I think their effect is similar, they strengthen the abs. I do both exercises.


I don't think you read the article. If you had, you'd have seen that McGill (who not a random PT but is the foremost subject matter expert on lower back disorders) is against crunches. It's literally in the title and the first paragraph.

"https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/the-man-who-wants-to-kill-crunches/"

Anything that puts the spine in flexion over and over (or in flexion under load) can lead to back problems.

Instead, McGill advocates the eponymous McGill curl up. You place your hands under the small of your back (to keep the lordosis) and do sort of a plank.

Here he is showing it to Brian Caroll. Caroll was a powerlifter who had herniated discs at both L4-L5 and L5-S1, broken sacrum, multiple endplate fractures and stenosis. He didn't think he'd be pain free again, much less compete. After working with McGill, he went on to deadlift 800lbs and squat 1100lbs without surgery. He's pain free.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPxbYHh3caQ

[awmp]

Going to a new department soon and I have the option of what pistol I can carry (self-provided). This department has done away with batons and only carry pepper spray and tasers.

I keep going back to the lighter setup with the idea of less damage to my back.

The two I have it narrowed down to are the Sig P320 Carry in 9mm and a full size 1911 in 45acp. (both railed with lights).

Of course the Sig in 9mm weighs less and capacity is an issue, but time will tell.

Good thread.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know if you guys are using "Asp" as a generic for expanding baton or talking about the actual brand. We use Monadnock and I've yet to see one bend or break. I've used my frequently with good results.

[BN]

This isn't just duty related, but you shouldn't be carrying your wallet in your hip pocket.