Holster Selection for Plainclothes Work

[Tensaw]

My agency recently unclinched a little bit with regard to the criteria governing holster selection so we are on the cusp of approving some additional holsters. I would appreciate any informed opinions on this as I view holster selection as pretty important for a variety of reasons. Since the mission is supposed to drive the gear train, let me throw out some things that might be relevant.

Presently all duty weapons are full sized Glocks. I am trying to get approval for the G19 for smaller folks and those who mostly drive a desk. This seems to be a surprisingly uphill battle so that may not happen. We have a few folks running a SF X300 daily.

We adopted the Safariland ALS as soon as it came out. We had some custom kydex belt mount plates made to make them ride a little tighter.

The job is probation work. So we are not fooling the clientele as to whether or not we are armed - they know we are. A concealment garment is a requirement and we settled on the modern looking 5.11 fleece type vest for that. (Different holster selection could change this - I hope).

Not every officer is a meat eater. We have some slighter built folks who could have real problems if one of our convicts squared off with them, thus weapon retention has always been a significant concern - hence the ALS.

The ALS has been great in certain aspects thus far. Very very fast considering the level of active retention and just a rock solid build. But, they are not a lot of fun when squeezing a large human into a small vehicle cockpit (especially with a weaponlight). And the smaller folks in particular walk around with a pistol tumor on their side.

Under consideration would be an open-top AIWB holster as long as the retention can be adjusted so the pistol would not just fall out of the holster if it was turned upside down. Same thing for a kydex rig for 3:00 o' clock carry as well. Either of these would obviously be much lower profile than the ALS which, in turn, will hopefully allow us to largely ditch the 5.11 vest and go to something more sleek and which would blend much better. I, specifically, am pretty stoked about the possibility of being able to carry AIWB with an untucked polo. That's all well and good in that, I am a larger dude and not involved any enforcement ops on a regular basis. I wonder how all that would play though for a smaller female officer.

It has been a while since I played with AIWB while wearing concealable armor. Might be some confliction there, but hopefully I can work that out. Heck, maybe the armor will hide the pistol a little.

We frequently, and unavoidably, find ourselves solo in relatively cramped quarters with the bad guys (think house trailer) - although generally not under openly adversarial conditions (as odd as that may sound). I guess I am wondering if the trade-off of comfort and concealment over having the ALS active retention system (just the thumb latch, not the hood), is worth it.

My other point of pondering is with regard to weapon retention with AIWB over 3:00 o' clock carry. My understanding, and own thought process, is that it is quite a bit harder to take a pistol from someone carrying AIWB than 3 o' clock. I would think this actually goes double for LE since we do not traditionally carry AIWB, thus a crook lunging for a pistol would likely go to the 3 o' clock first - and come up with nothing - thus allowing the officer to get ahead of the curve a little. All that said, every bit of this would be wishful thinking if the crook were to simply work toward the goal of beating the officer unconscious and then taking the weapon, ALS or no....

So, can anyone comment on whether or not AIWB is actually going to be superior from the aspect of weapon retention? And are there any legit resources where I can see what that might look like? (I suspect a certain Mr. Douglas might be a good resource on this...)

And for the 3 o' clock kydex crowd, how much are we giving up there do you think?

Perhaps I have put too much faith or hope in the ALS system to date; but I made that decision for my agency in hopes of giving my folks the best chance of not getting shot with their own weapon.

I am fairly well-versed in the choices of holsters available. Anything from JM Kydex would likely be at the top of the list, but if anyone has any specific suggestions, I would like to hear that.

[Lon]

Having been a Detective working plain clothes I would never suggest using a holster without some sort of active retention like the ALS or a thumb break when dealing with shit birds like you do. If I were you I’d stick with a Safariland ALS or GLS of some flavor. I preferred the 6378 w the additional 6006 added.

[FNFAN]

I think the idea of making the G19 available is great. Going from an active retention holster concealed to a friction retention holster open carried in a situation you can expect to make arrests, would seem a trail to tears. For open carry in soft uniform, my choice is the 7367 ALS/SLS but I've noticed that I'm somewhat out of step with the more cutting-edge folks.

[HCountyGuy]

AIWB is easier to defend a gun grab on since you can “collapse” on to the weapon with your body. Not to mention it being in front of you, you don’t have to worry about a sneak-from-behind grab.

Though not rated as a retention holster, I’m fond of the 537 GLS holster. Lower profile than your typical offerings, and SouthNarc has given it a moderately favorable review:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17900-Safariland-537

[TheNewbie]

With a few job related exceptions, an ALS holster is the only option I would consider. I would rather have an ALS for a Glock 19, sans light, than any other option out there.


You have to conceal your firearm ? Why?

[jnc36rcpd]

Plainclothes holsters are always a matter of compromise. If the thing is too awkward or uncomfortable to wear, you bring on a whole array of problems. I tried an ALS holster when I wore soft clothes at the academy. I found the thing so bulky that I eventually went to a Safariland thumb-break pancake holster. I felt the high and tight position of the holster offered sufficient retention for what I was doing. OK, we didn't make make lock-ups at the academy, but the other instructors refused to let me drive to lunch for fear that I'd jump a patrol call and drag them into a cluster. (And, hey, I was better off than the county instructors with the issue Serpa.)

I'm somewhat unclear regarding what level of concealment is required by your command staff. With 5.11 fleeces and ALS holsters, this sounds like concealment is very much a wink-wink/nod-nod/Bob's-your-uncle set up. It sounds like you might be better off being quasi-overt with a soft uniform and some type of duty belt/holster for home visits unless true concealment is necessary.

While I understand both the concealment and tactical pluses of AIWB carry, I'm not sure all your troops will go for it. This is especially true given a comparatively large pistol and a striker-fired system. I'm not sure what other equipment you carry and if this will affect AIWB carry, espeically with armor.

I do like the 537 holster. While not high retention, it does offer a better system than most plainclothes officers utilize. I obtained one because I was attending an IALEFI conference before rollout of our soon-to-be issued FNS-9 pistols and needed something. I suggested it as a holster for our detective bureau. While the DeSantis thumb-break pancake holster served them well with SIG 226's and 239's, I felt the thumb-break had the potential of being captured against the slide by the thumb and fouling presentation. That said, what do I know and they went with the thumb-break.

Overall, if you want some degree of concealment and some degree of security along with fast presentation, I'd go for the 537 system.

[TC215]

I’ve worked a plainclothes narcotics assignment for the last 8 years. I carry a G19 (for years it was a 1911 Commander) concealed in a JMCK OWB holster. However, if we “vest up” for whatever reason and my gun is exposed, I switch to a Safariland holster with retention.

Several years ago, I ended up in a fight over my gun on the side of the road. It was concealed, but became exposed while I was fighting with the guy. My holster was a leather OWB with no retention (I hadn’t been worried about retention, because I figured no one would ever see the gun). I had rolled up on a wreck, and had no idea the driver was wanted for multiple armed robberies in another jurisdiction. It’s a pretty bad feeling when someone has their hand wrapped around your gun. It’s a worse feeling when you’re not using a retention holster.

Also, I can’t imagine carrying AIWB with a vest on. I don’t believe that would work well. I’d also recommend the Safariland 537 holster.

[TAZ]

Doesn’t sound like true concealment is what you guys are going for. Sounds more like out of sight kind of thing.

AIWB is a good concealment method for some things. Wearing open front cover garments like your 511 fleece and driving a desk aren’t it IMO.

In my totally inexperienced opinion, stick with something OWB at the traditional 3-5 o’clock position and go with some level of retention. If your “clients” know you’re armed what’s the purpose of serious concealment? Getting protection from a grab would be more important to me.

I like the ALS system. It’s easy to use and does a good job at keeping things secure. However a good pancake with thumbsnap would work as well. I think raven used to offer a thumbsnap version of the Phantom. Wonder if JMC or DSG offer that as an option. Would be best if both worlds. Nice low profile with retention.

[Tensaw]

To address a couple of questions raised about the concealment requirement, in a word "policy." The gun has to be covered from plain view. On occasion, this has taken the form of a polo shirt one size too large covering the pistol. So, gun tumor. Don't even get me started on that... The 5.11 fleece vest represents the most practical concealment albeit with an odd visual signature. We get odd looks from waitresses and soccer moms. The crooks and cops know.

The GLS looks to have some promise. Frankly, I was aware of that system when Safariland rolled it out, but two things put the brakes on that. One, the ALS holsters were proven by that time and I was reluctant to switch retention release methods (again). We had gone from thumb-break to SERPA (for about five minutes) to the Bianchi Auto-lock (horrendous fail) to the ALS. All this in what was probably 12 - 18 months. Two, the GLS was too reminiscent of the Autolock for my liking. Once bitten and all that.

All that said, the GLS looks like a viable compromise. As noted, these are not true retention holsters, but they may hit that sweet spot between a decent ride and decent retention. it is beyond my comprehension why Safariland won't make a true concealment holster with active retention. It would seem that even the ALS system could be slimmed down considerably. It is Safariland's insistence on bolting every holster body to the same plate that keeps them from making a better mousetrap. I would love to see something with a Phantom footprint combined with the ALS thumb system. Apparently that is too much to ask.

The concealment requirement is a pain in the butt about 9 months out of the year. That said, for our purposes, it is probably the right call. I will say that I continue to be amazed at holster choices of some folks. I work with some guys who transport prisoners on a daily basis. They are all rocking some sort of Phantom knock-off, and have been for years. Wild stuff.

[Jason M]

AIWB is easier to defend a gun grab on since you can “collapse” on to the weapon with your body. Not to mention it being in front of you, you don’t have to worry about a sneak-from-behind grab.

Though not rated as a retention holster, I’m fond of the 537 GLS holster. Lower profile than your typical offerings, and SouthNarc has given it a moderately favorable review:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17900-Safariland-537

If the powers that be approve this will they also approve the addition of a SCD to issued G19 pistols?

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm going to say I wouldn't be surprised that someone well-versed in grappling and shooting would get a net benefit from AIWB.

I'd bet the average officer gains most from some active retention.

If holsters sans active retention are definitely going to happen, I'd urge towards getting the Raven injection molded lines in the list. Perun plus Eidolon covers a lot of bases.


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[Tensaw]

SCD, unfortunately, is a no go. Weapon mods (except for sights) are a no go.

OAD, yup the Perun would definitely be a front runner. The Eidolon has been my holster for use on my own time almost since they became available. It works, but the JM gear keeps calling my name.

[Off-topic: I find it quite frustrating (on the rare occasion that even think about it any more) when agencies apply restrictive policies that exclude the good (such as the SCD and AIWB) along with the bad. That said, folks who make policy are generally not enlightened enough to be able to sift down to such things. Too, policy is largely to protect the agency so in that vein, the urge to dumb things down and just say "No." is, I guess, understandable. Most policy exists because somewhere back down the line, somebody did something so stupid, they had to make a rule. I can only imagine what one might see inside an agency that allows personally-owned ARs without a restrictive policy on modifications.]

[KPD]

Why does the concealing garment have to be fleece year round? There are tons of those canvas vest things on the market that would be much cooler and practical.

I have worked narcotics over 13 years now. Any given day can, and frequently does, find me doing some kind of UC work. Things like driving a CS to buy dope are the most common. My BUG is carried AIWB and my primary in a BladeTech Nano during the warmer months. As soon as it gets cold enough for the field jacket and SAS smock I carry my primary in a Safariland ALS holster. I like the holster a lot. I like the security, speed of the draw and the consistency the holster offers.

When we jock up for search warrants and things like that the AIWB holster goes away. It just doesn’t work at all for me with the vest. The vest winds up riding on top of the gun which results in the gun jamming down uncomfortably and the vest riding up weird. That is with a .357 LCR. I can’t imagine how bad it would be with a full size gun.

We have a woman in our office who carries a Glock 22 AIWB in an Eidolon. She loves the holster, but has to ditch it every time she vests up as well.

If you have people opt for AIWB they will still need a OWB holster for when they don a vest.

I think your priority should be getting the Glock 19 approved across the board and adding in a different concealing garment like a canvas vest. Keep the Safariland holster. Something else would conceal better, but as has already been mentioned, gun grabs suck. They suck even more when you are fighting over a gun with no retention except for friction. BTDT as well, it is a new level of suck.

Everyone knows they are armed. So they are essentially uniformed officers who have to conceal their gear by policy. Treat them as uniformed officers and let the mission drive the gear train that way.

[ssb]

I currently use a Safariland 537 to conceal under a suit jacket while in a courtroom, but not everybody knows I'm armed* and I'm not the cops. It works well and satisfies my policy's retention requirement, but it's not as secure as an ALS (firing grip on the weapon will deactivate the retention). Southnarc did speak well of the holster, but the testers had formal training in retention tactics/grappling with guns.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Have you tried this type of ALS/Safariland holster mount? Might go a bit better for the concealment requirement with the issue rig.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/7bafc0116d828508cadc57da5159ebd2.png


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[KPD]

Have you tried this type of ALS/Safariland holster mount? Might go a bit better for the concealment requirement with the issue rig.
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I bought these for all of my ALS concealment holsters. I wound up going back to the 567 belt loop. I find the 567 belt loop more stable and comfortable than the 565.

[Tensaw]

KPD - The vest we have defaulted to is the 5.11 Covert Vest (had to look it up). https://www.511tactical.com/covert-vest.html
It’s not a matter of having to wear this particular vest, rather this is the sleekest rig we have found and people have just gravitated to it. At least it does not make the wearer look like a camping/fishing expedition is imminent. As far as trapping heat, when you are already wearing armor which is trapping heat like nobody’s business, the vest material mostly becomes non-factor. Some folks do wear other canvas vests. I have used ones from Duluth and Woolrich. This 5.11 is lightweight and allows decent movement. The collar tends to want to stand up, and that is the least desirable feature of the vest.

Dr. House - Yup. Been meaning to test drive one of those, but the kydex plates we have had for a while (see earlier post) get us to the same place. The issue with the ALS holsters seems to be the holster body itself.

[FNFAN]

KPD - The vest we have defaulted to is the 5.11 Covert Vest (had to look it up). https://www.511tactical.com/covert-vest.html
It’s not a matter of having to wear this particular vest, rather this is the sleekest rig we have found and people have just gravitated to it. At least it does not make the wearer look like a camping/fishing expedition is imminent. As far as trapping heat, when you are already wearing armor which is trapping heat like nobody’s business, the vest material mostly becomes non-factor. Some folks do wear other canvas vests. I have used ones from Duluth and Woolrich. This 5.11 is lightweight and allows decent movement. The collar tends to want to stand up, and that is the least desirable feature of the vest.

That's what we're issued. Concealed is the rule unless we're in plate carrier rig. It's a great item of clothing. I don't support the philosophy behind it but, hey, I asked to be here. I enjoy it and it's not as bad as wearing your vest under a dress shirt in Vegas.

[HCM]

Another vote for the GLS 537. Not as much retention as the ALS but FAR better concealment.

[GyroF-16]

Maybe I’m missing something, but are you considering the risks of a striker-fired (Glock 17, maybe 19) weapon in an AIWB holster for ALL your PO’s (meat-eaters and otherwise?)
I’d be concerned about the safety issues of having “non-gun people,” or “non-training focused” people pointing a muzzle at their femoral artery.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-AIWB - but it think it’s best as a “self selection” system.

If I misunderstood, and it’s an option for those who want it, please disregard.

[KeeFus]

The job is probation work. So we are not fooling the clientele as to whether or not we are armed - they know we are. A concealment garment is a requirement and we settled on the modern looking 5.11 fleece type vest for that. (Different holster selection could change this - I hope).


Stick with the ALS. You don’t need to throw in a loose weapon if you have to fight empty hands, etc. At least the Safariland ALS holster has some retention.

[Tensaw]

Yeah, I’m probably the only one who would go AIWB. My current assignment does not entail regular, close contact with the crooks. That said, based on the feedback here, I am probably going to champion the GLS as noted.

Kind of interesting... I am the one who completely drove the ALS train due to weapon retention concerns. Surveying the landscape, other folks outside our agency doing some very serious work do not seem to share that concern if their gear is any indication - so I started second-guessing that thought process. I appreciate all the input to bring me back to reality.

[KeeFus]

Yeah, I’m probably the only one who would go AIWB. My current assignment does not entail regular, close contact with the crooks. That said, based on the feedback here, I am probably going to champion the GLS as noted.

Kind of interesting... I am the one who completely drove the ALS train due to weapon retention concerns. Surveying the landscape, other folks outside our agency doing some very serious work do not seem to share that concern if their gear is any indication - so I started second-guessing that thought process. I appreciate all the input to bring me back to reality.

I am an ALS fan because you have to do something other than grip the gun to release the retention. If I had any chance of dealing with any criminals I'd keep the ALS simply because you can not predict when shit will go south. A local office of probation & parole is directly next to my building. I cannot tell you how many times they have called for assistance because of fights IN THE OFFICE.

AIWB and other holsters that have no/less retention than what you currently carry is a crap shoot. I can remember when Fobus holsters were "in" and then they were followed by Serpa's. Even recently I have seen these two holsters being used in LE...and I cringe every time I see them. AIWB in LE is for people who are in deep cover...that's it.

ETA: Over the past week I have looked at the Pennsylvania State Police video where one of the officers back-up gun came out. That happens more than we like think it does. I can distinctly remember 3 separate occasions where someone's back-up gun came from a holster during a fight...I was involved in two of those fights and watched another happen (no it wasn't my gun!). It is an unnerving feeling to see a loose gun flying across the floor. Two of those incidents involved sub-standard holsters...one was some kind of nylon POS and the other was a Galco ankle glove with only screw retention. (Why the hell would you carry an ankle holster in LE without some kind of positive retention???) The third was a Galco ankle glove that just came undone but the gun stayed in the holster.

If you have to sacrifice comfort and aesthetics for safety then so be it. Just my $.02.

[KevH]

"Plain clothes" is a broad category.

I just got moved to the suit and tie brigade a couple months ago. When I was a detective in the past, and now in an admin role, I wear the same thing...a Bruce Nelson-style vertical (no-cant) leather holster with a thumbreak worn between 2:30 and 3 o'clock (currently a Rusty Sherrick SIS). I also wore the same thing when I've worn jeans and a hoodie in the past.

If you're doing the polo and 5.11 look (basically a softer uniform since you're screamin you're a cop) I would stick with the ALS or something similar. You need more retention.


AIWB? No way. If you allow it for one person than you have to allow every moron to carry it that way. Bad idea.

[TheNewbie]

"Plain clothes" is a broad category.

I just got moved to the suit and tie brigade a couple months ago. When I was a detective in the past, and now in an admin role, I wear the same thing...a Bruce Nelson-style vertical (no-cant) leather holster with a thumbreak worn between 2:30 and 3 o'clock (currently a Rusty Sherrick SIS). I also wore the same thing when I've worn jeans and a hoodie in the past.

If you're doing the polo and 5.11 look (basically a softer uniform since you're screamin you're a cop) I would stick with the ALS or something similar. You need more retention.


AIWB? No way. If you allow it for one person than you have to allow every moron to carry it that way. Bad idea.

What is your duty weapon now?

[KevH]

What is your duty weapon now?

A Gen 3 Glock 17.

I've gone back and forth between it and my customized Colt for years.


I always carry one spare mag at the 9 o'clock. The Colt would give me 15 rounds on my belt (I prefer 47's). My Glock gives me 35 rounds in a lighter package.

[Tensaw]

I figure I owe this thread an update for future reference so here it is. I got my hands on a Safariland 537 GLS (https://www.copsplus.com/16185_safariland_537-83-61.html) and got qualified with it. It rides closer/higher/better than the ALS, which I like. It does *not* snug up to the body like an old school leather pancake rig, but it does ride comfortably enough, and conceals well enough, for doing what I do: plainclothes work. Disengaging the retention lever during the draw is pretty easy, and intuitive, so that's good. I will say that when re-holstering you have adjust your grip a little to get the middle finger out of the way, otherwise you end up jamming your finger into the top of the release lever. Not a huge deal, more like a minor nuisance.

With regard to retention, I am a little underwhelmed. It is undoubtedly more secure than an open-top holster - from a purely mechanical perspective. The thing that gives me pause is that, if it turned into a fight for the pistol, it seems that almost any grip a crook might get on the pistol while still in the holster is going to interact with, and defeat, the release lever. So at that point, we would be back to using muscle and leverage to keep the gun in the bucket. Said another way, the gun is very unlikely to come out of the holster due to a high level of physical activity (such as a fight), but the protection it offers from a gun grab is minimal - compared to the ALS.

So it is not a perfect holster, but, for me, it offers some acceptable trade-offs. The biggest benefit it offers me at present is the ability to be more discreetly armed, more often, so I am calling that a win.

PS. Getting the boss to sign off on this holster was pretty painless due to the active retention. (Interestingly, the first thing the boss referenced when I brought out the 537 was the Bianchi Autolock. They were involved in the discovery of a design flaw in that system many years ago, and it left the same mistrust of these open-top rigs with a lock with them as it did me.) Another guy came right behind me trying to get the Perun approved and I don't think that worked out for him.

PPS. I would probably choose the Perun over the 537 for concealed carry. The Perun, I think, conceals better and might be a little more friendly to use. The 537 might edge out the Perun for something like kicking around in the woods unconcealed under the theory that you might be less likely to lose the pistol if you took a fall or something along those lines.

[HeavyDuty]

KPD - The vest we have defaulted to is the 5.11 Covert Vest (had to look it up). https://www.511tactical.com/covert-vest.html
It’s not a matter of having to wear this particular vest, rather this is the sleekest rig we have found and people have just gravitated to it. At least it does not make the wearer look like a camping/fishing expedition is imminent. As far as trapping heat, when you are already wearing armor which is trapping heat like nobody’s business, the vest material mostly becomes non-factor. Some folks do wear other canvas vests. I have used ones from Duluth and Woolrich. This 5.11 is lightweight and allows decent movement. The collar tends to want to stand up, and that is the least desirable feature of the vest.

Dr. House - Yup. Been meaning to test drive one of those, but the kydex plates we have had for a while (see earlier post) get us to the same place. The issue with the ALS holsters seems to be the holster body itself.

This is a bit of a tangent, but - can you show us a pic the custom Kydex plates you guys did? I’m always looking for ways of snugging up 637x ALS rigs on my belt.

[Tensaw]

This is a bit of a tangent, but - can you show us a pic the custom Kydex plates you guys did? I’m always looking for ways of snugging up 637x ALS rigs on my belt.

30794

HD - We had these plates made before Safariland made these (https://www.amazon.com/Safariland-Contoured-Belt-Loop-Ambidextrous/dp/B06VSXTTFX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538226260&sr=8-1&keywords=safariland+1.5%22+contoured+belt+loop) available. If I were doing this today, I would use the Safariland mounting plate. Cheaper, "factory" and moar easy button.

That kydex plate does curve to the hip and not only snugs the holster in to the body, but also spreads the load across a broader section of the belt than the plate that the holster comes with. Safariland's design ethos frustrates me to no end. They put *a lot* of thought into the design of the holster bodies - and then just bolt everything to various mounting plates that someone ginned up after lunch.

[Tensaw]

One other thing re: the ALS (which I like very much). I took the dreaded dremel with a sanding drum/felt bob with rouge and *very* gently, took off a little material from the holster body situated in front of the thumb release, thus making the thumb release sit a little more proud. It is a very subtle mod, but it slicked up my drawstroke quite a bit. If someone were to do this, I would tell them it is important to only take material from *in front* of the thumb release and be sure to leave holster body material that rides inside that slot cut into the release.

[03RN]

One other thing re: the ALS (which I like very much). I took the dreaded dremel with a sanding drum/felt bob with rouge and *very* gently, took off a little material from the holster body situated in front of the thumb release, thus making the thumb release sit a little more proud. It is a very subtle mod, but it slicked up my drawstroke quite a bit. If someone were to do this, I would tell them it is important to only take material from *in front* of the thumb release and be sure to leave holster body material that rides inside that slot cut into the release.

You could also grab the nubhttps://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31047-Safariland-ALS-The-quot-nub-quot

[HeavyDuty]

30794

HD - We had these plates made before Safariland made these (https://www.amazon.com/Safariland-Contoured-Belt-Loop-Ambidextrous/dp/B06VSXTTFX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538226260&sr=8-1&keywords=safariland+1.5%22+contoured+belt+loop) available. If I were doing this today, I would use the Safariland mounting plate. Cheaper, "factory" and moar easy button.

That kydex plate does curve to the hip and not only snugs the holster in to the body, but also spreads the load across a broader section of the belt than the plate that the holster comes with. Safariland's design ethos frustrates me to no end. They put *a lot* of thought into the design of the holster bodies - and then just bolt everything to various mounting plates that someone ginned up after lunch.

Thanks! I switched over to the smaller Safariland loop a few months ago, but I’m finding they still sit too proud on the belt. Your design looks like an improvement to me, I may give that a try.