Lightweight PCC on a budget?

[olstyn]

As I mentioned in the "What did you shoot today?" thread, my wife and I recently tried out a friend's 9mm AR, and we both liked it, so of course I've been trying to figure out what it would cost to set one up that would work for us. My wife complained that my friend's PCC was too heavy, and I didn't like that it lacked last round bolt hold open. The ~$200 vortex red/green dot sight he had on his seems like a fine option for the purpose of enjoying target practice and/or USPSA PCC division, so I'd probably go down that path with it. Ideally, the whole package less mags would run $1000 or less, which, assuming $200 for the optic, would leave $800 for the gun. That means that going nuts on things like Brigand Arms braided CF handguards (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/blade-handguard-woven-carbon-fiber-lightweight-prod88189.aspx) is a non-starter, but I'd still like it to be as light as possible in order to allow my wife to enjoy it.

I'm not 100% married to the idea of a dedicated Glock mag lower, but that seems like the smoothest path to cheap, reliable hi-capacity mags, so it's definitely the front-runner in my mind.

What does the P-F collective say? What's the lightest 16" 9mm AR carbine with reliable LRBHO that can be built on a budget of ~$800? I've never built an AR, but I'm not afraid to learn if I can save significant money that way. (It might also be more palatable to buy the parts over time vs all at once.) I own decent quality torque wrenches in both inch-pounds and foot-pounds, so I've at least got the expensive end of the non-specialty tools covered. Beyond that, I don't know what I don't know, so feel free to tell me that I'm an idiot for even thinking about building my own.

[pangloss]

Does it have to be an AR? There's the Ruger PCC, CZ Scorpion, and Beretta CX4. The Beretta can be set up to run M92 or PX4 mags, and the stock length is relatively easily adjusted.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

It would not have to be an AR, but the configurability of ARs is why my thought process heads in that direction, especially given that light weight is one of the goals. The CZ Scorpion certainly has some appeal as well, but my understanding is that the stock trigger is not very nice, and I'm not sure how you could shave weight on the gun itself, so I think it might end up both overpriced relative to the budget and overweight. I don't know too much about the Beretta; I'll have to look into that option as well.

[jandbj]

No LRBHO but the Kel-Tec is light, inexpensive, and pretty darn good for what it costs.



Yes, I’m stunned I typed that too. But it’s absolutely true.:cool:

[GuanoLoco]

You might want to make sure your wife is interested in the recoil of a blowback lightweight 9mm PCC.

They aren’t hard to build IF you have a decent lower and a barrel with a decent, preferably external feed ramp for reliability. Troubleshooting them can be an expensive and frustrating PITA, but they can also be surprisingly reliable if you get it right.

LRBHO is over-rated and can be another source of unreliability.

[mmc45414]

I think $800, Glock mag, BHO is probably a pick any two situation.

I have a CMMG that I did buy as a separate upper and lower and consequently had to fiddle with the ejector but once I got it tweaked it has run great. I will also say the 9mm AR is one of those things I was not sure about but now that I have it I think it is one of the coolest things I have. They are listed as 6.2 pounds, how light were you trying to get?

Also, it is the Colt pattern and I have three of the Brownells magazines that have been great. If I had Glocks I would probably switch to one of that pattern, but the 32 rounds Colt style really are fine. And it has BHO.

[olstyn]

You might want to make sure your wife is interested in the recoil of a blowback lightweight 9mm PCC.

That's a fair point, but she specifically called out my friend's gun as being "too heavy," especially in terms of having a muzzle-heavy balance. It might be more that it needs to be balanced differently for her than that it needs to be at the absolute minimum weight.


LRBHO is over-rated and can be another source of unreliability.

I get that in a typical USPSA scenario, it won't come into play very often, but it seems to me that when/if it does, it'd be quite a bit faster to slap a bolt release than to run the charging handle. Of course, if you run a 30+ round gun dry, your stage score is probably already screwed anyway, so I guess it's entirely possible that I'm overthinking things.

In researching this, I'm also noticing that dedicated pcc lowers seem to run double or so the price of normal AR lowers from just about every manufacturer - is that just a supply and demand thing, or is there a technical reason?

[ranger]

I just got back from the range where I practiced with my AR based PCC. Cheap. It is an early Palmetto State Armory based on an adapter going into a traditional AR lower and using Colt style mags - this was before PSA started the Glock mag options. I bought it as a complete kit minus the stripped lower. Upper was factory assembled - I just assembled the lower. I added an old Tasco Propoint PDP3 left over from ancient USPSA Open days. It runs well. I have a SIG MPX SBR I normally shoot but the MPX is a lot more expensive.

[Odin Bravo One]

Mine isn’t it a PCC, it is a PCP, but that’s a legal technicality. It weighs in under 6 lbs fully dressed. Due to its length, I posted a photo in the long guns photo thread as we don’t really have an AR pistols photo thread. Minus the suppressors, I’m into it less than $1k.

[GJM]

I have a bunch of different 9mm carbines. A pistol caliber cartridge like 9mm is required for USPSA, but my experience is that 9mm AR carbines are significantly more costly and significantly less reliable than similar .223/5.56 carbines. If you are using a blow back design as opposed to something like the MPX, they also recoil a lot more than 5.56 carbines when using full power commercial 9mm ammo. Most everyone competitive in USPSA with a blow back AR is loading lower power ammo. The advantage of the 9mm carbine is you can shoot steel at pistol ranges, and be invited to pistol shoots.

Even leaving aside the ballistic advantage of rifle cartridges, I would take 5.56 or .300 BLK over a semi-auto 9mm carbine every day for defense, based purely on reliability.

[olstyn]

If you are using a blow back design as opposed to something like the MPX, they also recoil a lot more than 5.56 carbines when using full power commercial 9mm ammo. Most everyone competitive in USPSA with a blow back AR is loading lower power ammo.

An MPX sounds ideal for what I want, but $1500+ for the gun alone is more than I can justify, especially with the stories you've told about SIG's attitude about customer service/warranty issues. I do load my own 9mm as it is, so developing a light load that still makes 130+ PF out of a 16" barrel would definitely be part of the plan for any PCC, but especially a blowback gun.


Even leaving aside the ballistic advantage of rifle cartridges, I would take 5.56 or .300 BLK over a semi-auto 9mm carbine every day for defense, based purely on reliability.

No disagreement there; the purpose of a PCC for us would be competition and fun.

[Odin Bravo One]

You need to get in good with someone at Sig. I’m at the same price for the MPX as I am into the PCP.

[GJM]

When they run, the MPX is a joy to shoot. The gas system,however, requires frequent cleaning, and depending on individual gun, small parts can be an issue, as Sig fiddles with the inners. Sig announced a competition model a few months back, but it hasn’t hit the market yet.

[olstyn]

You need to get in good with someone at Sig. I’m at the same price for the MPX as I am into the PCP.

That's probably easier said than done, given that I'm a plain old civilian who doesn't work in the gun industry. Nice that you were able to get a good deal on yours, though. :)

[Jim Watson]

A guy here has a PCC with a trick barrel; 5 inches of real rifled barrel, a foot of thin wall "bloop tube" permanently attached to form a legal "barrel."
This has two advantages.
First, same velocity as from a pistol, no need to load PCC ammo separate from his PCP ammo so as to just make Minor power factor.
Second, lots less weight up front, which will gratify your wife.
I think he used the TACCOM barrel and a bunch of commodity parts, maybe PSA who sells the TACCOM barrel. Unfortunately, the PSA Glock magazine lower does not have a last round bolt stop, their Colt magazine action does.

His is kind of ugly with a bilious green receiver, but he sure doesn't have any trouble picking it out of a rack of black and camel dung brown guns at a match.

There is a good deal of lore in DIY PCC, you have to get the right barrel - TACCOM has ramped and plain - the right bolt, the right buffer, the right springs, etc. DIY generates a lot of castoff parts unless you can copy one that somebody else has already sorted out.


https://taccom3g.com/product-category/9mm-pcc-components-and-accessories/
https://palmettostatearmory.com/taccom-9mm-ulw-barrel-ramped-204.html

[olstyn]

A guy here has a PCC with a trick barrel; 5 inches of real rifled barrel, a foot of thin wall "bloop tube" permanently attached to form a legal "barrel."
This has two advantages.
First, same velocity as from a pistol, no need to load PCC ammo separate from his PCP ammo so as to just make Minor power factor.

I'm not sure I view that part as an advantage; I'm honestly kind of looking forward to experimenting with loads. 130 PF out of a 16" barrel with 124-grain coated bullets has to be a mouse fart load. I'm also wondering if there's any efficacy to running 100-grain .380 bullets at 1300 FPS in order to get flatter trajectory at medium/long range. :)


Second, lots less weight up front, which will gratify your wife.

That part certainly has appeal. I wonder if there's anybody local to us who has one set up that way - it would at least be interesting to try out.

If it wasn't for stupid NFA rules, I feel like an 8- or 10-inch barrel would be a really nice balance - you'd shave weight vs a full 16" barrel, but still gain significant velocity/charge weight reduction vs a 4- or 5-inch pistol. As it is, the $200, the wait, and all the hassle surrounding NFA items makes that solution pretty unappealing.

[DpdG]

I’ve got a good working 16” Glock pattern AR9 using a New Frontier lower and complete PSA upper, including their hybrid BCG. No last round bolt hold open, but the only custom part was a 7.8oz buffer, plus loctiting the removable ejector. The upper came with a 13” keymod handguard and I think I have around $700 into the gun including Magpul furniture but not including optic. Recoil is still somewhat significant and weird feeling compared to a normal DI gun.

The SB pistol braces have since gotten good enough that if the competition rules allow, I would do a “pistol” with a 8-10” barrel and a SBA3 brace.

[olstyn]

The SB pistol braces have since gotten good enough that if the competition rules allow, I would do a “pistol” with a 8-10” barrel and a SBA3 brace.

Appendix D8, rule #6 specifically calls out braces as not allowed. You must have a legitimate stock in order to shoot PCC, which means either a 16"+ barrel or a tax stamp for a SBR. Further, you can't shoot one in Open because 5.1.10 says you can't have a handgun with a foregrip or stock, so presuming I understand the rules correctly, there is no place for a "pistol" PCC in USPSA at present.

[GuanoLoco]

I’ve got a good working 16” Glock pattern AR9 using a New Frontier lower and complete PSA upper, including their hybrid BCG. No last round bolt hold open, but the only custom part was a 7.8oz buffer, plus loctiting the removable ejector. The upper came with a 13” keymod handguard and I think I have around $700 into the gun including Magpul furniture but not including optic. Recoil is still somewhat significant and weird feeling compared to a normal DI gun.

The SB pistol braces have since gotten good enough that if the competition rules allow, I would do a “pistol” with a 8-10” barrel and a SBA3 brace.

I have an aR-9 made from an NFA Glock lower too and a lot of rando on-sale piece parts. The only lower I could never get to work right was from PSA but I think they have been through multiple design generations.

A barrel with an external feed ramp plug grinding some metal off the ramped bolt and it ran like a boss. The other mode I like was an aftermarket “silent” captured buffer. This required a signifiacant amount of polishing to remove the buffer tool marks that made it anything but silent but the price was much cheaper than the JP.

The other thing to consider is getting a barrel with a deep cut chamber. Many of the 9mm barrel chambers are cut was too shallow and you need to load short or use “pointy” 9mm bullets.

Manufacturers don’t come to mind readily. I can try to dig them up if tht would be useful.

[ranger]

I took my PSA based "AR9" kit out on Saturday and Sunday. Colt mag style adapter block in a cheap Anderson lower. Old Tasco PDP3 red dot. Eats everything I feed it - specifically likes steel cased 115 FMJ.
29072

[Odin Bravo One]

That's probably easier said than done, given that I'm a plain old civilian who doesn't work in the gun industry. Nice that you were able to get a good deal on yours, though. :)

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...... I skipped on the MPX....... but they can be had for just over a grand if you know the people with the power.

[Odin Bravo One]

Not a true PCC, but you get the idea anyway.

29074

[olstyn]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...... I skipped on the MPX....... but they can be had for just over a grand if you know the people with the power.

No worries - you just made me take a quick run at gunbroker, that's all, and I probably would have done that anyway. Also, thanks for sharing a pic of your AR9 - looks like a pretty nice setup with the can mostly inside the handguard like that.

[DMF13]

Not including optics and mags, you could get a nice setup, right now, for under $500, with a LRBHO.

$200 (with free shipping) PSA "Colt style" lower: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-9mm-dedicated-complete-coltc-style-magazine-lower-classic.html

$250 (with free shipping) PSA 16" upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-51654485801.html

I got a "Glock" style pistol lower (no LRBHO), and a 10.5" upper. I got it as a range "toy," but I have just a little regret at not waiting to get a 16" upper, and "Colt" style lower so I could compete with it occasionally. Not a huge problem for me, but I may get a 16" upper and "Colt style" lower to compete with later.

Here are some tips for the AR9s:
The buffer in most 9mm ARs is too short and too light, as it's just a slightly heavier carbine buffer.

So at a minimum you need to get a spacer, or you will end up breaking the bolt catch due to hard cycling. This is one you could use: https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/New-Frontier-Armory-9MM-40S-W-Buffer-Spacer-p/nfa-9mmbufferspacer.htm

That will slightly reduce the hard cycling, but the best option is to get a longer and heavier (7 to 8oz) buffer, instead of the spacer. I use this one: https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/KVP-Solid-Stainless-Steel-Blowback-Buffer-7-5oz-p/kvp-buffer-7.5-9mm-ss.htm KAK makes a good one too: https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/lower-parts/buffer-tubes-and-parts/individual-buffer-tube-parts/individual-buffer-parts/ar15-9mm-buffer-long

Along with the longer/heavier buffer, you will want to use a Tubbs flat wire AR10 buffer spring: https://www.larue.com/products/tubbs-buffer-spring-ar10-sr-25-buffer-springs/

Because the AR9s are direct blowback, that spring and buffer combo will smooth the cycling out tremendously. When I first got my AR9 I was disappointed at the harsh cycling. When a friend explained the buffer and spring change, I ordered the parts and swapped them out. While it's not as soft shooting as an MP5, after the new spring and buffer it's much softer cycling than my M4.

If you don't want to do the 16" barrel option, it's my understanding USPSA and IDPA rules won't allow a "braced" pistol for PCC competition. So if you want to go shorter than a 16" barrel and/or 26" overall length, you'll need to go the NFA route, and that's an additional $200, and several month wait. Also, if you and your wife want to both be able to use it without the other one present, you'll have to do an "NFA trust" with both of you on the trust, and that's an additional expense.

Just because the PSA stuff is inexpensive doesn't mean it's not good. My friends and I weren't willing to pay CMMG or Wilson prices for a range toy, so several of us got PSA AR9s. None us have had any problems, using a variety of ammo and magazines. We've used Glock and Magpul mags, and a wide variety of ammo from 115gr and 124gr FMJ (both round nose and flat nose), to with 124gr Speer GDHP and 147gr Hydra-Shok HP.

I had heard that most AR9s had trouble with flat nose and HP rounds, but we haven't had any jams in ours over several hundreds of rounds of shooting in each of the guns.

[DMF13]

Recoil is still somewhat significant and weird feeling compared to a normal DI gun. Like I said above, you might want to try a Tubbs flat wire AR10 buffer spring, to go with your heavier (and I assume longer) buffer. It makes a huge difference.

[mmc45414]

So at a minimum you need to get a spacer
I was surprised mine didn't come with one, and you can use a stack of quarters as an expedient. I do need to buy that spacer someday, funny how stuff that is working makes you forget... :)


Along with the longer/heavier buffer, you will want to use a Tubbs flat wire AR10 buffer spring
Thanks for that tip, I will probably try that when I get around to getting the spacer.


Just because the PSA stuff is inexpensive doesn't mean it's not good.
I was going to mention them earlier, several friends have them and are also happy. And there is quite the variety.

[rob_s]

Not including optics and mags, you could get a nice setup, right now, for under $500, with a LRBHO.

$200 (with free shipping) PSA "Colt style" lower: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-9mm-dedicated-complete-coltc-style-magazine-lower-classic.html

$250 (with free shipping) PSA 16" upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-51654485801.html

I got a "Glock" style pistol lower (no LRBHO), and a 10.5" upper. I got it as a range "toy," but I have just a little regret at not waiting to get a 16" upper, and "Colt" style lower so I could compete with it occasionally. Not a huge problem for me, but I may get a 16" upper and "Colt style" lower to compete with later.

Here are some tips for the AR9s:
The buffer in most 9mm ARs is too short and too light, as it's just a slightly heavier carbine buffer.

So at a minimum you need to get a spacer, or you will end up breaking the bolt catch due to hard cycling. This is one you could use: https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/New-Frontier-Armory-9MM-40S-W-Buffer-Spacer-p/nfa-9mmbufferspacer.htm

That will slightly reduce the hard cycling, but the best option is to get a longer and heavier (7 to 8oz) buffer, instead of the spacer. I use this one: https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/KVP-Solid-Stainless-Steel-Blowback-Buffer-7-5oz-p/kvp-buffer-7.5-9mm-ss.htm KAK makes a good one too: https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/lower-parts/buffer-tubes-and-parts/individual-buffer-tube-parts/individual-buffer-parts/ar15-9mm-buffer-long

Along with the longer/heavier buffer, you will want to use a Tubbs flat wire AR10 buffer spring: https://www.larue.com/products/tubbs-buffer-spring-ar10-sr-25-buffer-springs/

Because the AR9s are direct blowback, that spring and buffer combo will smooth the cycling out tremendously. When I first got my AR9 I was disappointed at the harsh cycling. When a friend explained the buffer and spring change, I ordered the parts and swapped them out. While it's not as soft shooting as an MP5, after the new spring and buffer it's much softer cycling than my M4.

If you don't want to do the 16" barrel option, it's my understanding USPSA and IDPA rules won't allow a "braced" pistol for PCC competition. So if you want to go shorter than a 16" barrel and/or 26" overall length, you'll need to go the NFA route, and that's an additional $200, and several month wait. Also, if you and your wife want to both be able to use it without the other one present, you'll have to do an "NFA trust" with both of you on the trust, and that's an additional expense.

Just because the PSA stuff is inexpensive doesn't mean it's not good. My friends and I weren't willing to pay CMMG or Wilson prices for a range toy, so several of us got PSA AR9s. None us have had any problems, using a variety of ammo and magazines. We've used Glock and Magpul mags, and a wide variety of ammo from 115gr and 124gr FMJ (both round nose and flat nose), to with 124gr Speer GDHP and 147gr Hydra-Shok HP.

I had heard that most AR9s had trouble with flat nose and HP rounds, but we haven't had any jams in ours over several hundreds of rounds of shooting in each of the guns.

Let me ask you a question about all this...

So I have a suppressed 9mm AR now with a Colt-style lower and an upper that is for all practical purposes integrally suppressed. This keeps me from using this gun for PCC due to the rule against silencers (which I totally get, by the way). if the gun runs fine now, would you expect that the PSA upper you link to would drop right onto my current lower and run *ok*?

And it looks like for $250 you get the complete upper, including bolt? So outside of optic it would be everything I'd need? Maybe at most add the buffer and spring you suggest? (the parts in mine now are a buffer and spring from a factory Colt 9mm AR I had)?

ETA:
I see this in the listing for the upper
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use Glock®-style magazines."

which has me concerned re: dropping it onto my Colt-pattern lower...



ETA2:
maybe since what I have is an SBR anyway, I should just go this route (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-1-10-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-5165448589.html). Says
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use either Colt® or Glock®-style magazines."

[GuanoLoco]

Let me ask you a question about all this...

So I have a suppressed 9mm AR now with a Colt-style lower and an upper that is for all practical purposes integrally suppressed. This keeps me from using this gun for PCC due to the rule against silencers (which I totally get, by the way). if the gun runs fine now, would you expect that the PSA upper you link to would drop right onto my current lower and run *ok*?

And it looks like for $250 you get the complete upper, including bolt? So outside of optic it would be everything I'd need? Maybe at most add the buffer and spring you suggest? (the parts in mine now are a buffer and spring from a factory Colt 9mm AR I had)?

ETA:
I see this in the listing for the upper
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use Glock®-style magazines."

which has me concerned re: dropping it onto my Colt-pattern lower...

That’s the crapshoot with AR-9’s. It’s hard to know until you assemble and test.

I’ve done pretty well with most of my parts. Exceptions were a PSA lower that never worked right with anything and the (lack of) internal / external feed ramps / short chambering of some barrels.

[mmc45414]

Says "To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use either Colt® or Glock®-style magazines."

It is my understanding (not experience) that there is a newer unique cut in the bottom of the bolt to clear the Glock magazine. IOW you have to accommodate the Glock but the Colt is a given. Double check all this, it is just my hunch.

[DMF13]

I was surprised mine didn't come with one, and you can use a stack of quarters as an expedient. I do need to buy that spacer someday, funny how stuff that is working makes you forget... :) Oh yeah, the stack of quarters works too, I forgot about that.
Thanks for that tip, I will probably try that when I get around to getting the spacer.No problem, but the longer buffer negates the need for the spacer. So if you do the buffer and spring, you won't need the spacer. I tried the longer buffer in mine with the standard AR buffer spring, but didn't try the AR10 flat wire spring with the stock buffer, so I don't know which item has more impact on cycling. I just know my friends and I like the way our guns work with both items installed.

[DMF13]

Let me ask you a question about all this...

So I have a suppressed 9mm AR now with a Colt-style lower and an upper that is for all practical purposes integrally suppressed. This keeps me from using this gun for PCC due to the rule against silencers (which I totally get, by the way). if the gun runs fine now, would you expect that the PSA upper you link to would drop right onto my current lower and run *ok*?

And it looks like for $250 you get the complete upper, including bolt? So outside of optic it would be everything I'd need? Maybe at most add the buffer and spring you suggest? (the parts in mine now are a buffer and spring from a factory Colt 9mm AR I had)?So your question caused me to recheck the add, and I just saw that upper has a Glock specific bolt, and not a "hybrid" bolt. My apologies for leading you astray with my suggestion above, and I will say this again in a separate post for the OP, to help ensure he sees it too. The bolt with that upper will only work with the Glock style lower, and again I apologize for missing that originally. I haven't seen a Glock specific bolt offered there before, only the "hybrid" bolts, and I completely overlooked that detail.

With regard to the rest, my understanding, and I'm no expert (not even close), is the stock Colt bolt is slightly heavier than the "hybrid" bolts that PSA and others have been using to make the bolt work with both "Colt style" mags, and "Glock" mags. So the theory, as I've been told, behind the heavier buffer, is to get a combined weight of the bolt and buffer up to the weight used in the Colt factory guns. I don't mess around with silencers, so I haven't looked into how any of that is affects buffer weight.

Supposedly the theory on the spring, is the flat wire spring holds the bolt closed with more force when the bolt is forward, but because of the mechanics of the flat wire spring, it has about the same force as a standard carbine spring when the bolt is to the rear. All of that, combined with limiting the travel of the bolt/buffer with a spacer or longer buffer, are supposed to soften the cycling.

Whether that theory is correct with regard to mechanics I don't know. The first of my friends/acquaintances to get a PSA AR9 got a "Colt style" gun with the "hybrid" bolt. A few of us really liked it, and bought various iterations of barrel lengths and "Glock style" lowers, all with the "hybrid" bolts. When we all commented on how much harsher the cycling was on our guns, the first guy explained the issue with buffer length/weight, and the use of the AR10 flat wire spring. We all tried it and liked it.


ETA:
I see this in the listing for the upper
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use Glock®-style magazines."

which has me concerned re: dropping it onto my Colt-pattern lower...See my note above, again when I read your comment I went and looked again, and realized I missed that detail. I really am sorry for that. My understanding is that's due to the bolt used, but PSA customer service might be able to tell you if that's the case.

ETA2:
maybe since what I have is an SBR anyway, I should just go this route (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-1-10-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-5165448589.html). Says
"To be used with Palmetto State Armory 9mm lowers that use either Colt® or Glock®-style magazines."
Yeah, that's got the "hybrid" bolt, and should work with a lower that takes "Colt style" mags.[/QUOTE] Again, sorry for causing confusion.

[DMF13]

Not including optics and mags, you could get a nice setup, right now, for under $500, with a LRBHO.

$200 (with free shipping) PSA "Colt style" lower: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-9mm-dedicated-complete-coltc-style-magazine-lower-classic.html

$250 (with free shipping) PSA 16" upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-51654485801.htmlFor the OP, and anyone else who might be inclined to follow this advice, rob_s picked up on the fact I missed the fact the upper I suggested, that is on sale, has a bolt that is specific to use with a "Glock style" lower, and will not work with the lower I suggested. I apologize for any confusion my oversight may have caused.

To use the upper that's on sale, you would either need a "Glock style" lower, which means you won't get the LRBHO, or you will need a different bolt if you wanted a "Colt style" lower.

To use a Colt style lower, a better option would be:
$300 16" upper with hybrid bolt: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-15-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-5165448961.html

or

$330 16" upper with hybrid bolt: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-1-10-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-5165448589.html

Again, I apologize for missing that detail, and for any confusion that may have created. Thanks to rob_s for pointing out the error.

[rob_s]

So your question caused me to recheck the add, and I just saw that upper has a Glock specific bolt, and not a "hybrid" bolt. My apologies for leading you astray with my suggestion above, and I will say this again in a separate post for the OP, to help ensure he sees it too. The bolt with that upper will only work with the Glock style lower, and again I apologize for missing that originally. I haven't seen a Glock specific bolt offered there before, only the "hybrid" bolts, and I completely overlooked that detail.

With regard to the rest, my understanding, and I'm no expert (not even close), is the stock Colt bolt is slightly heavier than the "hybrid" bolts that PSA and others have been using to make the bolt work with both "Colt style" mags, and "Glock" mags. So the theory, as I've been told, behind the heavier buffer, is to get a combined weight of the bolt and buffer up to the weight used in the Colt factory guns. I don't mess around with silencers, so I haven't looked into how any of that is affects buffer weight.

Supposedly the theory on the spring, is the flat wire spring holds the bolt closed with more force when the bolt is forward, but because of the mechanics of the flat wire spring, it has about the same force as a standard carbine spring when the bolt is to the rear. All of that, combined with limiting the travel of the bolt/buffer with a spacer or longer buffer, are supposed to soften the cycling.

Whether that theory is correct with regard to mechanics I don't know. The first of my friends/acquaintances to get a PSA AR9 got a "Colt style" gun with the "hybrid" bolt. A few of us really liked it, and bought various iterations of barrel lengths and "Glock style" lowers, all with the "hybrid" bolts. When we all commented on how much harsher the cycling was on our guns, the first guy explained the issue with buffer length/weight, and the use of the AR10 flat wire spring. We all tried it and liked it.

See my note above, again when I read your comment I went and looked again, and realized I missed that detail. I really am sorry for that. My understanding is that's due to the bolt used, but PSA customer service might be able to tell you if that's the case.
Yeah, that's got the "hybrid" bolt, and should work with a lower that takes "Colt style" mags. Again, sorry for causing confusion.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for replying back. I imagine that's why the Glock-only one is on "clearance" and the "hybrid" that's supposed to work with both is the new hotness.

Still, >$350 to get a complete new upper and be able to PCC is great. Thanks for the links!

If I didn't already have the Colt-pattern lower I'd almost certainly go Glock-pattern, as that's my standard (pretty much only) handgun pattern.

[DMF13]

Again, sorry for causing confusion.

Thanks for replying back. I imagine that's why the Glock-only one is on "clearance" and the "hybrid" that's supposed to work with both is the new hotness.[/QUOTE]No, thank you for catching that error. I'd hate to see someone get an upper and lower that were incompatible.
Still, >$350 to get a complete new upper and be able to PCC is great. Thanks for the links!Yeah, when I got my lower it was $220, and the upper was $330. I had to add a brace, for another $100, and at $650 total I thought I was still getting a bargain! I have seen complaints about not feeding HP ammo with the "Glock style" lowers, but I've had zero problems with mine.
If I didn't already have the Colt-pattern lower I'd almost certainly go Glock-pattern, as that's my standard (pretty much only) handgun pattern.I got mine because I have tons of 9mm Glock mags, a couple of my friends went Glock style because they live in CO, and can't get the Colt mags. However, if I were competing with it (or at least seriously competing with it), I would have gone "Colt style" for the LRBHO. The buddy that has the Colt style PSA gun, has been very pleased with his. The lack of LRBHO bothers me, but I can live with it, since it's not for any serious purpose. Once you're used to shooting guns with a LRBHO, it is annoying to shoot a gun without it.

[GuanoLoco]

It is my understanding (not experience) that there is a newer unique cut in the bottom of the bolt to clear the Glock magazine. IOW you have to accommodate the Glock but the Colt is a given. Double check all this, it is just my hunch.

Glock lowers need ramped bolts.

I would not use a PSA 9mm lower with anything other than a matched PSA upper.

[Up1911Fan]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...... I skipped on the MPX....... but they can be had for just over a grand if you know the people with the power.

Wow, the LEO price is considerably more than that. Come on Sig.

[JRB]

Potentially dumb question - Is the Colt 6951 just overpriced for this, or does it suck for some reason? It seems that the only drawback is the proprietary Colt style magazines.

[Mark D]

I'd like to get a PCC as well, so I'm watching this closely. Couple additional data points:

1) The New Frontier stuff seems decent based on a sample size of 1. My buddy assembled a Glock-mag lower and upper from them. I've shot it and it's very nice. He hasn't had any issues with it and shoots it in USPSA and Steel Challenge.

2) Stern Defense has a conversion kit you can put into a 5.56 lower. It has LRBHO and Military Arms Channel has a favorable review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siavaA2mWms

Stern Defense also offers a complete upper reciever, and if memory serves you buy the complete 16" upper and the lower conversion kit for $650-ish. If it runs, that seems like an easy way to get into PCC. Especially if you already have a bunch of Glock mags.

[GuanoLoco]

I'd like to get a PCC as well, so I'm watching this closely. Couple additional data points:

1) The New Frontier stuff seems decent based on a sample size of 1. My buddy assembled a Glock-mag lower and upper from them. I've shot it and it's very nice. He hasn't had any issues with it and shoots it in USPSA and Steel Challenge.

2) Stern Defense has a conversion kit you can put into a 5.56 lower. It has LRBHO and Military Arms Channel has a favorable review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siavaA2mWms

Stern Defense also offers a complete upper reciever, and if memory serves you buy the complete 16" upper and the lower conversion kit for $650-ish. If it runs, that seems like an easy way to get into PCC. Especially if you already have a bunch of Glock mags.

My Yankee Hill Colt and New Frontier Armory Glock lowers both ran like a boss. The PSA lower was a POS and NEVER ran right.

[nate89]

I've built and help build about half a dozen PCCs for myself and some local USPSA guys. I think the QC010 and JP lowers are some of the best out there right now. I personally like the Colt lowers, but the glock ones work well also, mostly personal preference. I use a Vltor A5H4 and rifle spring in a standard carbine RE and that works well for 130-ish PF handloads. Very mild recoil and enjoyable to shoot. I have also loaded some 124 coated bullets with Clays powder down to about 100 PF for my younger brothers to mess around with and those are incredibly enjoyable to shoot.

My current upper is a Faxon upper, barrel, and bolt with an ALG handguard. It has been incredibly reliable and has shot everything I put through it.

Another option would be to look at the bolt and barrel kits from CMMG that use their new delayed opening blowback design (I forgot exactly what they call it). For about $375 you get a bolt and barrel, just pick and handguard and upper. That should decrease felt recoil. I'm actually very interested in picking that up sometime soon and giving it a try. Just be aware it might not work with all lowers, especially colt lowers like mine with the feed ramp on the lower.

[ranger]

Thanks for the post about the other buffer and spring combo - I will try that as my current PSA upper slings brass a long way and I would like to tame that recoil impulse.

[DMF13]

Potentially dumb question - Is the Colt 6951 just overpriced for this, or does it suck for some reason?I haven't checked prices recently, but I think the last time I saw they were going for a little over $1000. Not having direct experience with those rifles, I don't know if it's going to be worth the extra $300 to $400 you would pay over the cost of a Palmetto State Armory set up.

It seems that the only drawback is the proprietary Colt style magazines.Well, I don't see it that way. The "Colt" style mags work have a reputation for working reliably in ARs setup for them, and have the last round bolt hold open. The "Glock" style AR setups, either don't have the LRBHO, or if they have the LRBHO, they have a reputation for being unreliable, or very expensive, or both.

As I said above, if were to get serious about competing in PCC, and using a 9mm AR, I'd go with one that uses the "Colt style" mags, to get LRBHO and reliability. I'd still probably go with the budget option of a PSA gun, rather than the more expensive ones, but I'm a notorious cheapskate. My "Glock style" setup has been running reliably over several hundred rounds, and the same for other ones my buddies have, but our guns don't have the LRBHO.

The mags from Colt are horribly expensive, but mags made by Metalform are known to be reliable, and currently going for about $30 each.

Heck, all discussion of AR9s aside, if I shot long guns right handed I probably would have just gotten a Ruger PC carbine. Supposedly it's reliable, it takes Glock mags, has a LRBHO, and sells for about $550. Unfortunately the only thing they didn't make "ambidextrous" was the safety.

[rob_s]

If I didn’t already have the 9mm SBR and a bunch of Colt mags I’d be looking at a new standalone option possibly.

[mmc45414]

The mags from Colt are horribly expensive, but mags made by Metalform are known to be reliable, and currently going for about $30 each.I have had good luck with the Brownells, that are probably Metalform. Just got another one today.

[olstyn]

$250 (with free shipping) PSA 16" upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-hybrid-bcg-ch-51654485801.html

That's pretty darn appealing on price - thanks for all the detail in both the post I quoted and the ones that followed it. I think I could be ok with losing LRBHO if it means the whole deal comes in that cheap.

Anybody know what the weight of the rail on that upper is? The word "lightweight" isn't terribly concrete.

Any experience with this Taccom hand guard? Seems like about the least expensive way to lighten up the front end that I've seen so far:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/taccom-ulw-carbon-fiber-hand-guard-14-292.html

Too bad the Glock lowers are currently out of stock, or my credit card might be in danger, even though I'm still a little bit leery of PSA products. Might have to order the upper while it's on clearance regardless.

[DpdG]

There are a number of resellers New Frontier lowers, which I believe includes PSA. I got mine as a house branded assembled lower through Joe Bob Outfitters but there are many other rollmarks for the same lower.

[DMF13]

FYI, if this has been offered when I bought my pistol I would have gotten this instead: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-5165449191.html

As for a pistol, with a brace, these are also a better deal than what I did by buying the lower, upper, and brace separately:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-10-5-9mm-1-10-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-shockwave-pistol-5165449198.html

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-9mm-9-m-lok-moe-ept-shockwave-pistol-black1.html

The only problem I see with those three options is they don't have the LRBHO. However, I just shot a USPSA match with someone who was using an AR9. The LRBHO was no factor, because with no mag restrictions, he just used large enough mags he never had to reload.