Questionable piece on a new cartridge for the military

[Baldanders]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/08/new-military-caliber-sparks-much-debate/#axzz5NgmUZjg7


This one, and his post the day before are....interesting.


Seems like a lot of Boomers want to see us get back to a "real man's caliber" before they die.

I can't believe some folks are still fighting the ar-15/ 5.56 adoption battle. Although I should know better.

I think a 7.62 NATO replacement would make oodles of sense, but I doubt we will see that anytime soon either.

[jetfire]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/08/new-military-caliber-sparks-much-debate/#axzz5NgmUZjg7


This one, and his post the day before are....interesting.


Seems like a lot of Boomers want to see us get back to a "real man's caliber" before they die.

I can't believe some folks are still fighting the ar-15/ 5.56 adoption battle. Although I should know better.

I think a 7.62 NATO replacement would make oodles of sense, but I doubt we will see that anytime soon either.

MMM Ammoland dropping that sweet clickbait.

Never mind the fact that the new 855A1 is the killingest (that’s a technical term) rifle round the military has ever fielded and is absolutely amazing.

[Baldanders]

So you're Caleb of YouTube fame correct?

Can I hire you to sing "Let it Go" at my grandaughter's next birthday party? :cool:

I've enjoyed your online work.

I don't know abouy killingest, but I know M855A1+AR+friend with bad fire discipline = I have to buy a new target stand. It sails though soft metal, leaving nice jagged sharp bits on both sides of the impact.

[jetfire]

So you're Caleb of YouTube fame correct?

Can I hire you to sing "Let it Go" at my grandaughter's next birthday party? :cool:

I've enjoyed your online work.

I don't know abouy killingest, but I know M855A1+AR+friend with bad fire discipline = I have to buy a new target stand. It sails though soft metal, leaving nice jagged sharp bits on both sides of the impact.

I like to think of myself as Youtube Notorious, not famous, and yes I will sing for money.

[KhanRad]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/08/new-military-caliber-sparks-much-debate/#axzz5NgmUZjg7


This one, and his post the day before are....interesting.


Seems like a lot of Boomers want to see us get back to a "real man's caliber" before they die.

I can't believe some folks are still fighting the ar-15/ 5.56 adoption battle. Although I should know better.

I think a 7.62 NATO replacement would make oodles of sense, but I doubt we will see that anytime soon either.

I can tell you that carrying around a semiauto .308 with 150rds of ammo, an optic, body armor, water, food,.....etc is an extremely taxing endeavor. The 6.5 caliber, in an intermediate sized cartridge like the .264 USA makes a lot more sense. Also, .338 is a better choice for mounted MGs and precision rifles overseas anyway. The 7.62 NATO is more of a middle ground cartridge that will likely see less use with time given better options.

[the Schwartz]

I can tell you that carrying around a semiauto .308 with 150rds of ammo, an optic, body armor, water, food,.....etc is an extremely taxing endeavor. The 6.5 caliber, in an intermediate sized cartridge like the .264 USA makes a lot more sense. Also, .338 is a better choice for mounted MGs and precision rifles overseas anyway. The 7.62 NATO is more of a middle ground cartridge that will likely see less use with time given better options.

After reading Farnam's article, I agree with you. Other than pointing out that he believes that another cartridge might be needed, the few options that he offers (and then dismisses out-of-hand) are certainly not news. 6.8 SPC, seems the most likely possibility of the few that he mentions, but the .mil hasn't jumped on it and his opining that, "the Pentagon will want to get away from the Stoner system and go back to a gas-piston rifle", is speculative at best.

Guess that I missed the point of Farnam's article...if there was one. ;)

[jellydonut]

This is barely even an article, it's just some flowing train of thought punctuated with a lot of exclamation marks.

The mere concept that infantrymen might actually carry a rifle and a loadout for 7.62x51 again could only have been thought up by someone who hasn't tried carrying one along with loaded mags for it.

The other idea of the military being caught up on 6.8 SPC and gas pistons seems to be stuck in 2007. Other than the USMC, the military has largely realized that DI has its benefits, too, and 6.8 is dead in the water.

[ranger]

Anyone waxing poetic about Infantry carrying 308 and a basic load has never really done it. in 1981 - pre-SAW - Ranger school used to issue M14s at the Mountain Phase to simulate a "SAW like" weapon - I made the mistake of admitting I knew how to clean a M14 (compliments of JROTC) and therefore carried M14 with a basic load of mags (heavy steel) and blanks. It sucked. I was very happy to reclaim my M16A1 as soon as possible.

[Baldanders]

I can tell you that carrying around a semiauto .308 with 150rds of ammo, an optic, body armor, water, food,.....etc is an extremely taxing endeavor. The 6.5 caliber, in an intermediate sized cartridge like the .264 USA makes a lot more sense. Also, .338 is a better choice for mounted MGs and precision rifles overseas anyway. The 7.62 NATO is more of a middle ground cartridge that will likely see less use with time given better options.

I have a feeling that in 20 years or so, our armed forces will be using 5.56×45, some sort of 6.5 round with a half-polymer case and the .338 (or a ballistic equivalent). I think a polymer case for the 5.56 is far more likely than a new round.

I also think new optics/augmented reality/AI will make a far bigger difference than any new cartridge for infantrymen and especially special forces types. Materials technology should allow us to make insanely light and strong guns. I wonder how light we could make a buckytube/graphene/diamondoid receiver?

[HCM]

Instead of typing a lot, here is an excellent discussion by some relevant professionals on the idea of 7.62x51 vs 5.56. If I recall correctly it touches on things like intermediate cartridges and polymer case ammunition.


http://youtu.be/ZAy9QApbuJQ

[HCM]

5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.

[the Schwartz]

That’s because it’s not an article but rather one of John’s ”quips” with pictures and ads inserted.

http://defense-training.com/quips/

Yep....it's a commercial. :D

''But wait!!! For a limited time, and for just the added cost of 'shipping and handling', we will double your order...''

[the Schwartz]

5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.

I think so, too, along with the Stoner system. For the foreseeable future, it looks like the 5.56, and some iteration of the AR platform, is 'it'.

After the military determined that the 5.56 55-grain FMJ matched the lethality of the 7.62x39 122.5-grain FMJ, as evidenced by the logistic P[I/H] models (created by Sturdivan, Dziemian, Kokinakis & Sperrazza, et. al.) and the WDMET study and produced by the Biophysics Division of the US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, it was pretty much a 'done deal'. I also like the idea of a fairly compact AR (maybe piston driven?) with an intermediate cartridge, but with the technology underlying cartridge/projectile development being pretty darned 'mature', it is hard to imagine any advancement in munitions that will suddenly take the intermediate cartridges to a greater level of performance above that which we have now.

[jellydonut]

5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.

Now that SOCOM and the DHS have gone for 6.5 Creedmoor I doubt those proprietary Army cartridges are going to get anywhere.

[VT1032]

I think the next big change will be to a caseless 6.5mm and will be a ways off. The army has already been working on that with the lsat lmg program. I think that will be paired with a .338 replacement for the 7.62 and m240.

[Hambo]

5.56 is going to be around a long time.

Rumors of its demise have been exaggerated since 6.8 SPC was going to be the new hotness.


it is hard to imagine any advancement in munitions that will suddenly take the intermediate cartridges to a greater level of performance above that which we have now.

Right. New cartridges are just tweaking the system we have. It's not like the 19th century when the US Army went from Hall flintlocks to .30 Krag in 60 years. Also, some military projects look like they're doing something, but the main objective is continued employment.


Now that SOCOM and the DHS have gone for 6.5 Creedmoor I doubt those proprietary Army cartridges are going to get anywhere.

Units that can do their own testing and procurement will always have the newest stuff. It will take a long time for that to trickle down to all infantry units.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Like Tom said, it’s a quip from John’s series. If you read them all, they’re not fully developed essays, but more like just brief anecdotes about things he observes in the world, hears through his military and LE contacts, or sees in his classes. And he refers back to them in future quips.

I think a number of you are giving him short shrift, not being fully mindful of his value to the industry. He IS the first, “traveling trainer.” When Cooper was setting up the API, John was already, “on the road,” teaching. He’s the oldest, living, private sector trainer STILL working today. His sources and intel are still on-point, and disregarding his ideas without appreciating the historical context from which he speaks is short-sighted.

He trained on M14’s before he was shipped to Vietnam, where he was issued and used an M16. His first hand experience with the 556 led him to believe that the ammo issued at the time worked great on unarmored opponents, inside of 100 yards. Past that, it was lacking. He was the ONLY USMC LT from his class at Quantico to survive the war. He was injured by gunfire 3 times during his tour in theatre.

When Cooper was waxing poetic about the past, riding about the desert on a 4 wheeler, occupying largely a figurehead role, John is still traveling and teaching 10-12 hour a day classes, NOT including the impromptu lectures he gives at breakfast and dinner. The comparison between the two is that they were contemporaries. John’s 72...he won’t be around much longer. Train with him while you can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRB]

As a currently serving Army NCO (albeit in the Reserve) I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at all of the 5.56 vs 7.62 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 sorts of discussions.

The plain and simple reality is that a terrifyingly wide swath of our currently serving Soldiers, both active and Reserve/NG, can't manage a score higher than ~25 out of 40 on a 25M paper target qualification. Anyone with any business carrying a weapon should easily shoot 34+ out of 40 and anyone that's at a P-F level should be golden for 40 out of 40 with astounding consistency on the 25M paper qual.

The same Soldiers that struggle will often re-fire their qualification multiple times before they pass on a reactive range (aka pop-ups) which requires you to hit targets between 50 and 300M in short periods of time. Damn few can shoot more than 30 out of 40. Most will fail to get the minimum 23 hits out of 40 their first attempt.

To hell with the BS on whatever new flavor of weapon or changes are needed - the Army as a whole needs to realign its priorities and make marksmanship and skill with a weapon as heralded and celebrated again, instead of just coddling PT studs with high PT scores.
Shooting Expert doesn't even do anything for one's promotion packet at higher levels. That's a goddamn travesty if you ask me.

Before we start worrying about new weapons or ammo for the rank and file, the rank and file needs to learn how to *shoot* again. That is a widespread cultural problem in the Army these days and other services are affected as well. The various flavors of hi-speed speartip guys have all the flexibility they need on equipment, and they get the range time they need as well.

[Wake27]

As a currently serving Army NCO (albeit in the Reserve) I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at all of the 5.56 vs 7.62 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 sorts of discussions.

The plain and simple reality is that a terrifyingly wide swath of our currently serving Soldiers, both active and Reserve/NG, can't manage a score higher than ~25 out of 40 on a 25M paper target qualification. Anyone with any business carrying a weapon should easily shoot 34+ out of 40 and anyone that's at a P-F level should be golden for 40 out of 40 with astounding consistency on the 25M paper qual.

The same Soldiers that struggle will often re-fire their qualification multiple times before they pass on a reactive range (aka pop-ups) which requires you to hit targets between 50 and 300M in short periods of time. Damn few can shoot more than 30 out of 40. Most will fail to get the minimum 23 hits out of 40 their first attempt.

To hell with the BS on whatever new flavor of weapon or changes are needed - the Army as a whole needs to realign its priorities and make marksmanship and skill with a weapon as heralded and celebrated again, instead of just coddling PT studs with high PT scores.
Shooting Expert doesn't even do anything for one's promotion packet at higher levels. That's a goddamn travesty if you ask me.

Before we start worrying about new weapons or ammo for the rank and file, the rank and file needs to learn how to *shoot* again. That is a widespread cultural problem in the Army these days and other services are affected as well. The various flavors of hi-speed speartip guys have all the flexibility they need on equipment, and they get the range time they need as well.

Not sure how much the reserves have seen it but the army is making progress here. The updated TCs are significantly better and the master marksmanship trainer course seems pretty good. My division re-opened it’s two week marksmanship course after getting new instructors certified so I think we’re on the right track, but of course filtering all of that down to the majority of dudes on the line is going to take a very long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robinson]

Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

I seem to remember Col. Cooper complained in one of his writings about the military trying to adopt/develop a 6.8 cartridge when people have been shooting perfectly good 7mm cartridges for decades. :)

[HCM]

Now that SOCOM and the DHS have gone for 6.5 Creedmoor I doubt those proprietary Army cartridges are going to get anywhere.

6.5 Creedmoor is a better mousetrap for 7.62 NATO sized guns but that does not make it an intermediate cartridge. DHS is only going to it for precision rifles currently in 7.62x51. AFAIK SOCOM is doing the same.

Those propriety AMU cartridges are being developed as an intermediate cartridge / 5.56 replacement, not a 7.62 med MG cartridge replacement. Apples to Oranges.

[holmes168]

Right- but the blueberry pancakes.....

I remember carrying 80-90 pounds on my back as part of the “light” infantry at Fort Drum. I’ve got no issue with the M-4 and 5.56.



Anyone waxing poetic about Infantry carrying 308 and a basic load has never really done it. in 1981 - pre-SAW - Ranger school used to issue M14s at the Mountain Phase to simulate a "SAW like" weapon - I made the mistake of admitting I knew how to clean a M14 (compliments of JROTC) and therefore carried M14 with a basic load of mags (heavy steel) and blanks. It sucked. I was very happy to reclaim my M16A1 as soon as possible.

[rob_s]

As a currently serving Army NCO (albeit in the Reserve) I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at all of the 5.56 vs 7.62 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 sorts of discussions.

The plain and simple reality is that a terrifyingly wide swath of our currently serving Soldiers, both active and Reserve/NG, can't manage a score higher than ~25 out of 40 on a 25M paper target qualification. Anyone with any business carrying a weapon should easily shoot 34+ out of 40 and anyone that's at a P-F level should be golden for 40 out of 40 with astounding consistency on the 25M paper qual.

The same Soldiers that struggle will often re-fire their qualification multiple times before they pass on a reactive range (aka pop-ups) which requires you to hit targets between 50 and 300M in short periods of time. Damn few can shoot more than 30 out of 40. Most will fail to get the minimum 23 hits out of 40 their first attempt.

To hell with the BS on whatever new flavor of weapon or changes are needed - the Army as a whole needs to realign its priorities and make marksmanship and skill with a weapon as heralded and celebrated again, instead of just coddling PT studs with high PT scores.
Shooting Expert doesn't even do anything for one's promotion packet at higher levels. That's a goddamn travesty if you ask me.

Before we start worrying about new weapons or ammo for the rank and file, the rank and file needs to learn how to *shoot* again. That is a widespread cultural problem in the Army these days and other services are affected as well. The various flavors of hi-speed speartip guys have all the flexibility they need on equipment, and they get the range time they need as well.

You know, I read through this and couldn’t help but see all sorts of parallels to business.

It’s the fundamentals. No amount of new gun, new Ammo, new software, new tactics, etc. is going to make up for that. If you can’t perform the fundamental tasks to the standard required, the modern solution is to lower the standard and look to throw money at the equipment.

[JRB]

Not sure how much the reserves have seen it but the army is making progress here. The updated TCs are significantly better and the master marksmanship trainer course seems pretty good. My division re-opened it’s two week marksmanship course after getting new instructors certified so I think we’re on the right track, but of course filtering all of that down to the majority of dudes on the line is going to take a very long time.

A small step on a very long road. I haven't seen any changes at my level yet, it's just the same old same old. I was speaking to an instructor at the KAFB CAT-M shop and they were telling me about they're rolling out (or have rolled out) a qual course of fire for the M4 that includes a magazine of mixed live and dummy rounds, to require one to perform failure drills during a course of fire. How is the USAF doing that but the Army is not?

Until 40/40 is worth a lot in *ANY* promotion consideration, officer or enlisted, and until people who perpetually cannot shoot get barred from re-enlistment or let go entirely just the same way they would if they perpetually failed PT - we've got a long way to go.

Culturally we need to get away from the immediate over-serious freakouts by higher command about weapons being drawn, too. Soldiers across the entire Army should be innately comfortable with an assigned rifle and it should be second nature to safely and effectively carry and keep one on/near their person. It should be expected and demanded of Soldiers to be comfortable and competent with that rifle and handle it like they know what they're doing. Such is simply not the case for too many SM's in uniform.


You know, I read through this and couldn’t help but see all sorts of parallels to business.

It’s the fundamentals. No amount of new gun, new Ammo, new software, new tactics, etc. is going to make up for that. If you can’t perform the fundamental tasks to the standard required, the modern solution is to lower the standard and look to throw money at the equipment.

You're absolutely right - there are a TON of parallels to education in particular. Both the military and our education system are suffering due to a, shall we say, reduced overall quality of individual and they're forced to accommodate them despite very clear and obvious deficiencies. So the system bends and changes and they throw money at all kinds of widgets and toys and new equipment and fancy blocks of training and testing from private companies to the tune of millions of dollars.
It allows poorly trained/insubordinate/uncaring individuals to barely succeed when they should have failed. Mediocre individuals get too much opportunity to skate and succeed anyway and look good doing it. Truly capable individuals get lost in the ranks of the mediocre because the strata is focused on the wrong side of the bell curve.
Then the rest of us just get to grumble because the real fix is a hard line 'meet this standard or GTFO' coupled with teachers/leadership given the power to effectively discipline insubordination and flagrant disrespect.
Instead, parents complain to administration and congress and the next thing we know, the inmates run the asylum.

There is an unprecedented shortage of both Teachers and Drill Sergeants now - and that's no coincidence.

tl;dr - I don't give a shit what cartridge they issue or even what weapon they issue, the fix is to unflinchingly demand excellence and skill with the rifle above all other skills, and refuse to tolerate anyone that cannot.

[Odin Bravo One]

As with every article written for public consumption, the opinions are completely irrelevant and are from people without the slightest clue as to how and why small arms decisions are made for our military. It’s essentially nothing more than jerking off with a keyboard instead of a warm towel.

[jetfire]

A small step on a very long road. I haven't seen any changes at my level yet, it's just the same old same old. I was speaking to an instructor at the KAFB CAT-M shop and they were telling me about they're rolling out (or have rolled out) a qual course of fire for the M4 that includes a magazine of mixed live and dummy rounds, to require one to perform failure drills during a course of fire. How is the USAF doing that but the Army is not?


We’ve actually had immediate actions as part of the USAF rifle qual for at least the last four years. Also, the Air Force is weird in that we’re the branch that shoots people with small arms the least, but we’re the only branch that has “marksmanship instructor” as a primary MOS (AFSC). We’re not perfect by any means, but the Air Force Qualification Course for rifle shooting makes a perfectly reasonable attempt to incorporate some sense of reality into the shooting. Like I said, not perfect, but pretty decent for the military. The handgun course isn’t bad either, although I think the criteria to pass it are too easy. We’re rolling out a new handgun qual and a new rifle qual in FY19 to go with the M18.

Fun historical aside: the entire reason my career field exists in the USAF is back in the late 50s-early 60s General LeMay really wanted to beat the Army at Camp Perry, because he enjoyed marksmanship, so he created the Small Arms Training Units under the guise of improving the USAF’s functional knowledge of small arms, but really it was to kick the Army in the dick at Perry. They succeeded, and the USAF’s unusual marksmanship culture was born.

[Wake27]

A small step on a very long road. I haven't seen any changes at my level yet, it's just the same old same old. I was speaking to an instructor at the KAFB CAT-M shop and they were telling me about they're rolling out (or have rolled out) a qual course of fire for the M4 that includes a magazine of mixed live and dummy rounds, to require one to perform failure drills during a course of fire. How is the USAF doing that but the Army is not?

Until 40/40 is worth a lot in *ANY* promotion consideration, officer or enlisted, and until people who perpetually cannot shoot get barred from re-enlistment or let go entirely just the same way they would if they perpetually failed PT - we've got a long way to go.

Culturally we need to get away from the immediate over-serious freakouts by higher command about weapons being drawn, too. Soldiers across the entire Army should be innately comfortable with an assigned rifle and it should be second nature to safely and effectively carry and keep one on/near their person. It should be expected and demanded of Soldiers to be comfortable and competent with that rifle and handle it like they know what they're doing. Such is simply not the case for too many SM's in uniform.

Agreed on all accounts. I'm curious to see the new qual come out, should be soon if he rumors were true.

[Baldanders]

We’ve actually had immediate actions as part of the USAF rifle qual for at least the last four years. Also, the Air Force is weird in that we’re the branch that shoots people with small arms the least, but we’re the only branch that has “marksmanship instructor” as a primary MOS (AFSC). We’re not perfect by any means, but the Air Force Qualification Course for rifle shooting makes a perfectly reasonable attempt to incorporate some sense of reality into the shooting. Like I said, not perfect, but pretty decent for the military. The handgun course isn’t bad either, although I think the criteria to pass it are too easy. We’re rolling out a new handgun qual and a new rifle qual in FY19 to go with the M18.

Fun historical aside: the entire reason my career field exists in the USAF is back in the late 50s-early 60s General LeMay really wanted to beat the Army at Camp Perry, because he enjoyed marksmanship, so he created the Small Arms Training Units under the guise of improving the USAF’s functional knowledge of small arms, but really it was to kick the Army in the dick at Perry. They succeeded, and the USAF’s unusual marksmanship culture was born.

That clears up some questions I had, thanks!

[Baldanders]

BTW, I intended no disrespect to Mr. Farnham by starting this thread.

Heck 7.62×39 might be an ideal caliber....for a civvie like me, who lives in dense woods, and has no restrictions on hollowpoints, and doesn't need to hump a gun more than a half mile on a given day.

I understand the predjudices formed in combat. My dad is still wary of the AR after experience with the M16A1 (with shitty gen1 nightscope--my dad says he had to turn in on, then off, to use it as it usually over-magnified the ambient light and it only worked as the sight powered down for about 30 secs--damn near useless) in Vietnam. He has a pretty positive bias towards the Kalashnikov, as "they always worked in the hands of guys shooting at me!"

[okie john]

Like Tom said, it’s a quip from John’s series. If you read them all, they’re not fully developed essays, but more like just brief anecdotes about things he observes in the world, hears through his military and LE contacts, or sees in his classes. And he refers back to them in future quips.

I think a number of you are giving him short shrift, not being fully mindful of his value to the industry. He IS the first, “traveling trainer.” When Cooper was setting up the API, John was already, “on the road,” teaching. He’s the oldest, living, private sector trainer STILL working today. His sources and intel are still on-point, and disregarding his ideas without appreciating the historical context from which he speaks is short-sighted.

He trained on M14’s before he was shipped to Vietnam, where he was issued and used an M16. His first hand experience with the 556 led him to believe that the ammo issued at the time worked great on unarmored opponents, inside of 100 yards. Past that, it was lacking. He was the ONLY USMC LT from his class at Quantico to survive the war. He was injured by gunfire 3 times during his tour in theatre.

When Cooper was waxing poetic about the past, riding about the desert on a 4 wheeler, occupying largely a figurehead role, John is still traveling and teaching 10-12 hour a day classes, NOT including the impromptu lectures he gives at breakfast and dinner. The comparison between the two is that they were contemporaries. John’s 72...he won’t be around much longer. Train with him while you can.

Nailed it.

I trained with John and his wife, Vicki, twice in the mid-90's. Cooper articulated the key parts of the Modern Technique, but then he locked it down and insisted that everyone use it exactly as dictated. Then, while he was treating the shooting public like Marines in his command, people like John and Vicki Farnam and Ken Hackathorn were out evolving the art in the trenches and spreading the word to the masses who couldn't get to Paulden.

The quips don’t do him justice, and frankly, with so many other good people writing about guns and related topics online, they don’t do him any favors.

Training with John is can be a two-for-one deal as Vicki often teaches with him. Definitely train with them if you get the chance.


Okie John

[ST911]

I appreciate the rounds I've fired and bread I've broken with John and Vicki. Whether I rejected or adopted a given Farnam technique, I left their company with more knowledge and experience that informs my choices. While all information and method has history and context, John and Vicki were pioneers in the industry and have done enormous good. I give them their due.