My hometown - officer charged in fatal shooting

[Kanye Wyoming]

This happened less than 10 minutes from my house, along the route I often take to/from the office. The officer is a member of my local PD. Over the years I’ve had several professional interactions with the DA (before he was DA), and have bumped into him on many occasions since he became DA. He is an excellent lawyer and a very fine guy who has never come across as a headline chaser or an appeaser of the mob.

In summary, an apparently hopped up musclehead was running around in the middle of a busy boulevard banging and jumping on cars, including a police car. The officer (a rookie) got out of the car, drew as the guy was about 25 feet away, and repeatedly ordered him to get on the ground. The guy’s hands were visible and he didn’t appear to be holding anything, but he kept moving towards the officer, and as he got to within 5-10 feet the officer fired several shots and killed him.

Me, I see a very big guy who although not obviously armed is behaving erratically and disregarding clear instructions from a cop pointing a gun at him by continuing to approach the cop. I also see the cop’s grieving family members at his funeral because he hesitated an instant too long and was stabbed to death or had his neck broken.

I confess I’m surprised that the officer was charged, and a little out of sorts as a result. But there are lots of people here who can offer much more informed opinions than I can. The events were captured on a cellphone video, which is included in the story linked below. What do you all think?

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-pol-south-whitehall-police-shooting-district-attorney-announcement-20180807-story.html

[GardoneVT]

The question I have is what was the officers training?

If it was “admin minimum” , being a vet and current National Guard officer he’d have defaulted to military ROE under stress vs what his departments limited training would advocate .In a combat zone with an unknown and erratic subject , his actions would be quite proper under normal military ROE.

If his departments training wasn’t up to snuff, that would explain the relatively quick decision for criminal charges.

[Poconnor]

I’m local too and I am watching this case with interest

[TGS]

The question I have is what was the officers training?

If it was “admin minimum” , being a vet and current National Guard officer he’d have defaulted to military ROE under stress vs what his departments limited training would advocate .In a combat zone with an unknown and erratic subject , his actions would be quite proper under normal military ROE.

If his departments training wasn’t up to snuff, that would explain the relatively quick decision for criminal charges.

Shooting an unarmed, agitated person walking towards you wasn't in any ROE that I ever saw in the military....

....an organization that overhelmingly has more restrictive ROE policies than the constitutional standards used by US law enforcement.

[Artemas2]

http://www.wfmz.com/news/lehigh-valley/officer-charged-with-voluntary-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting/778500097#
"Although not necessary to the making of the system, Roselle could have engaged Santos physically and he was also equipped with a baton, pepper spray, and a tazer,"

28868

Yeah...not without a lot of backup

Also watching this with interest.

[Jason M]

Also watching with interest...

[Peally]

"Unarmed latino man"

looooooooool this fucking mental country. That guy starts a fight with me in a bar my 165 pound twig ass is shooting.

[HCountyGuy]

Article claims the deceased had prior drug problems. Didn’t see anything in the article that indicates any toxicology findings. Based on the guy’s behavior though, I’d be willing to bet he was hopped up on something at the time of the incident.

So we have a likely doped up guy doing stupid things in traffic and eventually advancing on a line officer with a firearm pointed at him. Could he have used less-lethal? Sure, but how often have we seen incidents where tasers have failed to incapacitate even the folks who are not on drugs? I surmise it would’ve done little more than piss the deceased off and made him more eager to fight the officer. We’ve had at least two recent incidents I can recall of an “unarmed” subject wrestling a gun from an officer and killing them with their own service weapon.

Could he have tactically danced around his cruiser until backup swooped in? Maybe. Doubt the outcome might’ve changed much.

Seems another witch-hunt in the works. God forbid we hold the deceased accountable for his role in getting himself shot. “They didn’t have to kill him!” Yeah well the officer didn’t haven’t give the deceased a chance to kill him either.



Help keep us updated on this case please.

[Totem Polar]

Yeah, this looks like one to keep an eye on as the case proceeds. Following.

[Hawker800]

So long dirtbag.

[wvincent]

I'm no combatives expert, but I'm convinced letting that guy wrap you up is gonna be a fight for your life. With at least one firearm in play. Going to be interesting when and if the Tox screen gets released to the public. Might be drugs, might just be a bad case of roid rage, or might just be a disturbed individual. I wouldn't want to try to handle him with a baton. Sap or a jack under the under the jaw or behind the ear? Maybe. Oh wait, most of LE lost access to those tools quite a while ago.

I remain convinced that saps and jacks saved a lot more lives than they ever took. Applied correctly, you could take the fight out of someone, right effin now.
If you've ever taken an intended strike from a blackjack, you know exactly what i'm talking about.

I don't know the political climate of that area, but this one seems a little weird.

[RoyGBiv]

From the OP linked article...


Walking toward Officer Jonathan Roselle, Santos, who clearly had no weapon, uttered his last words. “Don’t do it,” he pleaded, as Roselle unloaded five shots.

"Don't shoot me"... while you're advancing on me is an attack tactic. Buying time to close the distance.
If you don't want to get shot, stop and comply.

[Casual Friday]

First things first. He doesn't appear to me to be that big. He angling for the camera in that shot. He's muscular that's for sure but not freakazoid or anything. Other photos of him make him look more average, no telling how old they are though. It could be a Trayvon thing where they show him when he's 11 hugging teddy bears and kittens.

It could be a drug/roid combo. I don't believe in roid rage all by itself, but when you start mixing in other substances that's when things can get dicey. A 6 month BJJ white belt of average build should be able to eat that guys lunch unless he was similarly trained. That's not me making a judgment on whether or not the shooting was justified or not, just an assessment made based on my weigh lifting and BJJ experience.

[HCountyGuy]

First things first. He doesn't appear to me to be that big. He angling for the camera in that shot. He's muscular that's for sure but not freakazoid or anything. Other photos of him make him look more average, no telling how old they are though. It could be a Trayvon thing where they show him when he's 11 hugging teddy bears and kittens.

It could be a drug/roid combo. I don't believe in roid rage all by itself, but when you start mixing in other substances that's when things can get dicey. A 6 month BJJ white belt of average build should be able to eat that guys lunch unless he was similarly trained. That's not me making a judgment on whether or not the shooting was justified or not, just an assessment made based on my weigh lifting and BJJ experience.

And what of your experience in fighting dopers who would/could strangle a grizzly bear?

The “Roll Call Stories” thread has more than a few tales of the hell of wrestling hyped up druggies and the Superman levels of abuse they can withstand and inflict.

[Casual Friday]

And what of your experience in fighting dopers who would/could strangle a grizzly bear?

The “Roll Call Stories” thread has more than a few tales of the hell of wrestling hyped up druggies and the Superman levels of abuse they can withstand and inflict.

Reread my post. I didn't make a judgment on whether or not the shooting was justified or not. I wasn't there, I don't know. We also haven't seen a tox report have we?

[hufnagel]

I'd like to see the dash/body cams and hear the audio. First blush though is while it might be tragic I'm not seeing malice on the part of the officer. The video, while not conclusive, has me considering Santos' intentions based on his rate of walk, his purposeful stride, and that right hand movement at the end; that was a finger point. "Don't do it" in the context of what was visible doesn't sound like a plea, but more like a warning, as in shoot at me and i'll fuck you up.

I'll now return to eating my cake.

[wvincent]

I'd like to see the dash/body cams and hear the audio. First blush though is while it might be tragic I'm not seeing malice on the part of the officer. The video, while not conclusive, has me considering Santos' intentions based on his rate of walk, his purposeful stride, and that right hand movement at the end; that was a finger point. "Don't do it" in the context of what was visible doesn't sound like a plea, but more like a warning, as in shoot at me and i'll fuck you up.

I'll now return to eating my cake.

Funny, that's pretty much exactly how i'm seeing it. Get out of my head
Wonder why "Latino" is even in the headline. Does his race even matter? Could have just said man, citizen, dude, etc.

[hufnagel]

wvincent I wondered why I heard the sounds of a bowling alley. :D

[wvincent]

wvincent I wondered why I heard the sounds of a bowling alley. :D

Nicely played Sir, nicely played.

[HCountyGuy]

Reread my post. I didn't make a judgment on whether or not the shooting was justified or not. I wasn't there, I don't know. We also haven't seen a tox report have we?

I did read your post and didn’t take it as an assessment of the justification of the shooting.

You offered an individual of basic BJJ skill could’ve handled this guy. I simply countered in that if the guy was on drugs (yes, I know we’ve yet to see a tox report but his behavior is rather indicative of one who was on something) that the physical skill set of the officer could not matter because folks on drugs historically take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I don't know the political climate of that area, but this one seems a little weird.
Pretty plain vanilla. Which, combined with the relatively weak protests from the usual suspects following the incident, is what makes this a bit perplexing.

The City of Allentown is heavily D, although not (yet) of the screeching radical leftist variety.

Lehigh County as a whole leans slightly D (52/48 Clinton in 2016), although if you take out Allentown, it would lean R.

South Whitehall Township, where this incident occurred, is adjacent to Allentown, mostly suburban, and is right at 50/50. (You made me dig this up so now you have to suffer too - Clinton 5,198 votes, Trump 5,125 votes; Obama 5,010 votes, Romney 4,981 votes).

Most county-wide elected officials tend to be either moderate Ds or moderate Rs. Politically, the DA is a pretty plain vanilla, traditional R. I've always respected him as a straight shooter (there I said it), and as I mentioned in the OP, he has never done anything that would lead one to believe he seeks to grab headlines or stir the pot. This is consistent with the tradition of our DAs going back as far as I can remember.

I'm curious to know what the other officers in the department are thinking. The gunsmith up the road from my house has a few customers who are South Whitehall cops. I'll be stopping by there in a week or two and see if he's heard any of the scuttlebutt.

[Poconnor]

Spreading rumors about a case is one of the few fast ways for a police officer to get fired. I’m sure there will be a trial

[Kanye Wyoming]

Spreading rumors about a case is one of the few fast ways for a police officer to get fired. I’m sure there will be a trial
Yes, right on both counts. In which case on reflection I doubt I’ll hear anything of value.

There’s so much we don’t know, but my gut tells me he will be acquitted. Or at minimum a hung jury.

[41magfan]

He told an officer and then a supervisor who arrived on the scene that he thought he “f---ed up,” the documents note.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

ETA: Had something almost identical happen close by just a few years ago .... "Someone shouts, "Get on the ground!" three times, and shots are heard."

First GJ refused to indict, but a True Bill was returned on the second attempt. Officer went to trial and the result was a hung jury (8 to 4 for NG). The lawsuit was settled pretty quickly ($2.25M) and the DA (w/o too much fanfare) announced he would NOT retry the Officer.

[45dotACP]

First things first. He doesn't appear to me to be that big. He angling for the camera in that shot. He's muscular that's for sure but not freakazoid or anything. Other photos of him make him look more average, no telling how old they are though. It could be a Trayvon thing where they show him when he's 11 hugging teddy bears and kittens.

It could be a drug/roid combo. I don't believe in roid rage all by itself, but when you start mixing in other substances that's when things can get dicey. A 6 month BJJ white belt of average build should be able to eat that guys lunch unless he was similarly trained. That's not me making a judgment on whether or not the shooting was justified or not, just an assessment made based on my weigh lifting and BJJ experience.

You're right, BJJ/Boxing is a powerful combo to the uninitiated...but size and strength is a tehnique all of its own. And when combined with a little technique, a large opponent is a technical and physical nightmare.

Not saying the dude was Bob Sapp or anything, but I remember watching Sapp nearly kill Ernesto Hoost. The skill difference was almost as considerable as their size difference. Sapp being a giant ball of steroids who would bull dudes into a corner and haymaker their heads off and Hoost being one of the best kickboxers of his contemporaries.

Sapp did lose to Nogueira and it was an awesome fight to watch but Nogueira paid dearly for that win.

Back on topic. Little ol 155lb me would not gamble on a straight one on one fight with that guy and no backup and a gun in play. That's with a few years of BJJ/kickboxing under my belt. If it was my only choice I'd sure work on the run fu and any BJJ or striking techniques I employ would be to that endeavor.

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[Mark D]

Good discussion.

I can't help but wonder if the DA isn't planning a run for higher office or otherwise feeling the need to grandstand?

[Casual Friday]

You're right, BJJ/Boxing is a powerful combo to the uninitiated...but size and strength is a tehnique all of its own. And when combined with a little technique, a large opponent is a technical and physical nightmare.

Not saying the dude was Bob Sapp or anything, but I remember watching Sapp nearly kill Ernesto Hoost. The skill difference was almost as considerable as their size difference. Sapp being a giant ball of steroids who would bull dudes into a corner and haymaker their heads off and Hoost being one of the best kickboxers of his contemporaries.

Sapp did lose to Nogueira and it was an awesome fight to watch but Nogueira paid dearly for that win.

Back on topic. Little ol 155lb me would not gamble on a straight one on one fight with that guy and no backup and a gun in play. That's with a few years of BJJ/kickboxing under my belt. If it was my only choice I'd sure work on the run fu and any BJJ or striking techniques I employ would be to that endeavor.

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I don't disagree with you, but the size difference in the cop and this meathead doesn't appear to be the same as Hoost and Sapp. Sapp was 400 lbs with abs. I saw Ernesto Hoost at LAX a few years ago and he still looks like he could put chumps on notice. My wife thought he was the Tae Bo guy Billy Blanks lol.

One of the guys I train with now in BJJ is a cop with about 2 years on the job. You know why he took up BJJ? A 145 lb female he was trying to handcuff grappled the daylights out of him and that made him realize that there was more out there to learn than just what he learned in the academy. He described it as the most humiliating thing he's ever had happen to him. Good dude, awesome to train with.

[scjbash]

You're right, BJJ/Boxing is a powerful combo to the uninitiated...but size and strength is a tehnique all of its own. And when combined with a little technique, a large opponent is a technical and physical nightmare.


Not to mention that the side of a highway is a pretty shitty place to get in a fight.

[45dotACP]

I don't disagree with you, but the size difference in the cop and this meathead doesn't appear to be the same as Hoost and Sapp. Sapp was 400 lbs with abs. I saw Ernesto Hoost at LAX a few years ago and he still looks like he could put chumps on notice. My wife thought he was the Tae Bo guy Billy Blanks lol.

One of the guys I train with now in BJJ is a cop with about 2 years on the job. You know why he took up BJJ? A 145 lb female he was trying to handcuff grappled the daylights out of him and that made him realize that there was more out there to learn than just what he learned in the academy. He described it as the most humiliating thing he's ever had happen to him. Good dude, awesome to train with.

True. And ultimately Sapp lost more than he won, so thats a big win for technique.

We've got three guys who are on the job in my dojo and they all recommend BJJ as one of the best unarmed techniques for cops.

I figure it's similar to having an extra less lethal option. Aside from all the academy stuff, the taser, the OC the baton...BJJ is another level of safety. Nevertheless, it's just another step on the continuum and if a cop doesn't have it, he must switch to others. Unfortunately a lot of cops don't have it. Even just 6 months of training is still a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of money and it's hard to get guys to invest in it. Even civilians who are serious about self protection are hesitant to jump down the BJJ rabbit hole when some "self defense instructor" shows them an eye poke and declares them ready.

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[Kanye Wyoming]

Given this, which happened last year not far away from the recent incident, it is even more perplexing that the officer was charged.


The video showed Seiple hand Clary a ticket and begin to drive away, before the motorist motioned for him to come back. As he talked more with Clary, Seiple became suspicious of whether he was driving impaired, leading to field sobriety tests and Kelly’s arrival at the scene on the side of the highway.

It was when troopers tried to arrest Clary on suspicion of driving under the influence of marijuana that chaos erupted.

A melee between Clary and the troopers lasted one minute and six seconds. The gun battle that followed, just 41 seconds.

Before he ran to his car, grabbed a gun and opened fire, Clary and the troopers grappled on the ground, Clary trying to grab their service handguns and continuing to struggle even after he was repeatedly shocked with stun guns.

The video showed Clary grabbing the handle of Kelly’s holstered gun early in the struggle, before the troopers used their Tasers or punched him.

Clary tried to grab both troopers’ pistols, and succeeded in dislodging the ammunition magazine of Seiple’s. A spare firearm of Kelly’s fell to the ground at one point, which Seiple later picked up, disarmed and threw to the side.

Seiple used his Taser on Clary twice and punched him five times, according to trial testimony. Kelly tasered Clary five times, threw nine punches and kneed him once.

http://www.mcall.com/news/police/mc-nws-route-33-state-police-trooper-shooting-video-released-20180706-story.html
Dashcam video embedded in story.

[willie]

25 years ago in my area, a young rookie stopped and questioned a vagrant in a secluded place. The vagrant disarmed him and using his handgun, beat the rookies' face into an recognizable mess. The young cop almost died. Everybody asked, "Why didn't the rookie shoot this guy?" The vagrant was a felon with extensive criminal history and had active felony warrants at the time. He already knew what he was going to do before the young officer exited his vehicle. The officer
may not have had adequate training. He certainly misjudged his adversary. Regardless, had he shot the man, he would have been accused of shooting an unarmed person, who in this instance was a dirtbag.

[Sensei]

Yes, we all know of instances where LEOs have been disarmed or killed by unarmed criminals. No, that does not change the fact that killing an unarmed suspect who is disobeying lawful commands will often draw a manslaughter indictment.

[peterb]

I suspect that a lot of folks who read about an incident like this are thinking that if you approach someone who’s acting deranged, it should not be a surprise that they disobey commands, and that you should have planned for that with options other than lethal force.

I know that the realities of less-lethal options and backup support don’t always make that possible.

[blues]

The next big thing in high-tech policing:

https://media.giphy.com/media/Cqlwl22Tjh62A/giphy.gif

[RoyGBiv]

The next big thing in high-tech policing:




https://youtu.be/kMM_xa-TCnw

[HCountyGuy]

The next big thing in high-tech policing:

https://media.giphy.com/media/Cqlwl22Tjh62A/giphy.gif

No, here it is:

https://wraptechnologies.com

LaGrange, GA PD is dinking around...errrr....evaluating them for possible use.

ETA: article talking about GA departments looking at this contraption

https://m.lagrangenews.com/2018/05/02/lpd-other-agencies-try-out-new-non-lethal-device/

[Kanye Wyoming]

Apropos this:


If it was “admin minimum” , being a vet and current National Guard officer he’d have defaulted to military ROE under stress vs what his departments limited training would advocate .In a combat zone with an unknown and erratic subject , his actions would be quite proper under normal military ROE.

This:



But experts who evaluate police and military personnel say it’s possible his police officer training to protect and defend was overtaken in the heat of the moment by the more intensive combat training he received as a soldier.

. . .

Philip Stinson, a Bowling Green State University criminologist who has been tracking police shootings since 2005, said he too wonders which training Roselle relied on when he drew his gun on Santos. Stinson said he has thought for years about whether similarly trained officers can “undo those experiences and training that they had with the military.”

. . .

“If it were a military situation, the shooting makes sense,” Stinson said

. . .

Matt Guller of the Institute for Forensic Psychology in Oakland, N.J., said a military background is “a double-edged sword” for police officers. Their training is superior, but it may not be appropriate at times for police decision-making, he said.

. . .

Two Sunday events

Supporters of South Whitehall police officer Jonathan Roselle will meet for a rally at 2 p.m. by the Comfort Inn Suites on Hamilton Boulevard, near the shooting site.

At the same hour, community groups will hold an interfaith memorial service for Joseph Santos at Resurrected Life Church, 144 N. Ninth St., Allentown.

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-nws-police-military-background-20180809-story.html

[BehindBlueI's]

No, here it is:

https://wraptechnologies.com

LaGrange, GA PD is dinking around...errrr....evaluating them for possible use.

ETA: article talking about GA departments looking at this contraption

https://m.lagrangenews.com/2018/05/02/lpd-other-agencies-try-out-new-non-lethal-device/

I've said for years if we had some sort of bolo that would wrap up a running suspect it's be freaking hilarious. Oh, and also effective. Mostly effective. And hilarious.

[willie]

Perhaps the frequency of these types of encounters is increasing. The nation has a high incarceration rate. Hence we have a large number of non-compliant persons causing disruption before being locked up and after being released. Addiction issues including drug abuse among the mentally ill are variables interacting with all the other variables that sociologists can cite. My unsubstantiated opinion is that internet reporting causes more idiots to challenge authority.The publicity allows posturing that increases status and feeds ego.

One of my teacher inservice sessions was a two hour program on the dangers of anal sex among teen girls. I asked how we were supposed to use this information and pointed out that bringing up the subject with students would be a career ender. I got a giant ass chewing. I hope that police training programs are more relevant because proper training is the only solution.

[LockedBreech]

One of my teacher inservice sessions was a two hour program on the dangers of anal sex among teen girls. I asked how we were supposed to use this information and pointed out that bringing up the subject with students would be a career ender. I got a giant ass chewing. I hope that police training programs are more relevant because proper training is the only solution.


That’s a really good point about how to even bring it up with kids as a teacher in 2018.


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[Kanye Wyoming]

Sample size of one, but interesting FB post from a Hispanic friend.



http://i65.tinypic.com/2lcy45u.jpg

[Sensei]

The next big thing in high-tech policing:

https://media.giphy.com/media/Cqlwl22Tjh62A/giphy.gif

I’m just going to leave this here....


https://youtu.be/r1JXhSYfLNE

[Poconnor]

The local newspaper, the Morning Call reported that the officer was fired. He was a new hire and a probationary officer so I would not expect him to be a member of the FOP.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Trial began this week.

https://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-south-whitehall-dorney-park-police-shooting-trial-day-two-20200313-hdktpogr3ndslgpnli366267u4-story.html

[Earlymonk]

I've said for years if we had some sort of bolo that would wrap up a running suspect it's be freaking hilarious. Oh, and also effective. Mostly effective. And hilarious.

+1 on efficacy as an apprehension (and amusement) tool

The technology is old as dirt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas

Pretty cool to bring an ancient trapping method into 21st c. police work...

[Poconnor]

I think his statements after the shooting will play a big part. It’s hard to justify your actions after you admit “you fucked up” . I feel for this officer; he seems like a good guy that was in fear of his life and had tunnel vision. There were many situations I had by myself on patrol that I thought I was going to get my ass kicked. An aggressive attitude can stall a fight until backup arrives. I was infamous for telling suspects bigger than me “ I’m glad your big and want to fight; I don’t have to hold back. I’m going to hit you so hard your mother is going to feel it in her cunt” I don’t think I intimidated anyone but it made them think; they often said “what did you say?” Some would laugh, some wanted to roll.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Some welcome good news on such an otherwise shitty day.

https://www.mcall.com/news/police/mc-nws-roselle-verdict-20200319-2kf4umabdvcxrlckd3cphwpzn4-story.html?outputType=amp