1,000 Lumen X300U

[einherjarvalk]

http://www.recoilweb.com/finally-here-the-1000-lumen-surefire-x300u-140226.html

Same price, same profile, more lumens.

Guess it's time to buy a 4th U-boat. Slowly but surely, every gun in my safe is gonna end up wearing one at this rate.

[Tom Duffy]

http://www.recoilweb.com/finally-here-the-1000-lumen-surefire-x300u-140226.html

Same price, same profile, more lumens.

Guess it's time to buy a 4th U-boat. Slowly but surely, every gun in my safe is gonna end up wearing one at this rate.

Time for Oakley to run a sale.

[Larry Sellers]

I’ll eat next month.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VT1032]

Honest question from someone who knows very little about flashlights. What does this do that a TLR1HL won't? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to fling shit. I've never seen enough difference to justify paying twice as much, but I see a lot of smart people who seem to find a reason.

[Larry Sellers]

Honest question from someone who knows very little about flashlights. What does this do that a TLR1HL won't? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to fling shit. I've never seen enough difference to justify paying twice as much, but I see a lot of smart people who seem to find a reason.

I’ve got an original x300 and the aforementioned stream light. Truth be told the build quality (see subjective) feels better on the surefire. This coming from someone who doesn’t point guns at people for a living. The surefire just feels better in the hand and the switching system seems more intuitive for me on the surefire.


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[DpdG]

Honest question from someone who knows very little about flashlights. What does this do that a TLR1HL won't? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to fling shit. I've never seen enough difference to justify paying twice as much, but I see a lot of smart people who seem to find a reason.

I have samples of both (x300u-A, TLR-1HL) and prefer the screw clamp of the TLR, but the x300u-B resolves that. For pistol I like the TLR switching, for rifle the x300, although the margin is slim. I’m unqualified to adequately critique the quality of the beam as I simply describe both as really bright and surpringly long lived on a set of batteries.

I think the only reason for the pricing differential is country of manufacture (SL is offshore with stateside support while SF is US made) and name recognition. None of mine have needed customer support, but lately SL seems to have a better customer service reputation. I think it really comes to personal preference if one disregards price.

[Hot Cereal]

I've carried an X200, X300U and currently a TLR-1HL. I have to tell you the TLR-1HL is just as good as the Surefire. The switch on the Surefire is a bit more "stiff" than the Streamlight, but it has never been an issue. I find both lights well made and the Surefire about $100 over priced. I'm sure someone will have X amount of reasons why Surefire is better, but I've had great reliability and use from my TLR1HL. For duty work the size is irrelevant because Safariland holsters take them interchangeably. For concealed, the X300 is just big, to me. The TLR1 is ok for this use. Frankly, I think the the TLR-7 is potentially changing the game. The output from that light is totally sufficient for duty work and the size/weight savings would be beneficial, even in a duty rig. I plan on picking one up and checking it out.

[VT1032]

I find both lights well made and the Surefire about $100 over priced.

That's about where I'm at, although my experience is entirely with the TLR1. I'm just not seeing anything game changing. My only gripe about the TLR1 is I bought one to use on my rifle in a 12 oclock mount and it's too tall for that. It totally blocks out the front sight post once the rifle is zeroed. My fault for not checking that first, but I just changed the light position to 3 oclock and back in business. I don't want to totally derail the thread, so I'll leave it at that, but I think this confirms my suspicions that there isn't another $100 worth of awesome tucked away in the X300 somewhere that I'm just not seeing.

[theJanitor]

I will be buying one.

[EVP]

Good move on Surefire to keep the same footprint/housing.

I have never owned a stream light just Surefires, but I have heard from some that have had to use Surefires warranty that their CS is not how it once was.

[Willard]

Ha! I just bought this https://www.armsunlimited.com/SureFire-X300-Ultra-600-Lumen-LED-Weaponlight-p/x300u-a.htm this week. Best price I'd seen by a few bucks and thought I was getting a deal. Was unaware the 1K lumen was pending release or would have waited.

[Gio]

Honest question from someone who knows very little about flashlights. What does this do that a TLR1HL won't? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to fling shit. I've never seen enough difference to justify paying twice as much, but I see a lot of smart people who seem to find a reason.

I have used both professionally. In all honesty, I can’t tell a difference in the output. Both put out a strong hot spot with great spill. Where the TLR has a huge advantage is in the switching for a right handed shooter. It is easy to activate in momentary on mode with your weak hand thumb with a normal firing grip and maintain that light activation through recoil. As soon as you break your grip, the light is off, which is what you want in most situations. The x300 can be activated in the same way, but it goes to a constant on mode. If you have to move, change positions, reload, or do anything else where you want the light off, you have to manually turn it back off. The momentary function on the x300 (push forward on the switch) is almost worthless on a pistol light. I can’t reliably activate it with a firing grip and it’s impossible to maintain through recoil.

I also think a tlr1 HL is hard to beat on a cqb rifle, especially if you’re not using an IR laser. I mount mine at 12:00 in front of the front sight post, which gives me more forgiveness working the light around right or left side cover. Just like with the light mounted on a pistol, pushing down with my left hand thumb allows me to turn the light on in momentary mode with a full firing grip, and as soon as I let off pressure to transition to my pistol, move, or change a mag, the light goes off. In my experience this is a much more reliable and ergonomic setup than running a tape switch. I’ve gone through more surefire scout light tape switches than I can remember.

[Trukinjp13]

1000 lumens is a lot of light indoors. Why have the xh30 and the x300u? If they are both 1000?

I own surefire and streamlight. I prefer the surefire it just looks like its built like a brick shithouse. Also love the lines. I also prefer the beam when out in the fields/woods at night. Switching is also better for me. I still use the streamlight, but will be replacing with new x300 or the xh30. I just prefer Surefire. I also have a couple friends who have had the streamlight do funny shit in the winter time on them on their duty pistol. -10/-20* but the light should just work. Once they warmed them up in the cruiser they worked. But after that I never used mine again in the winter. Not taking the chance. They are both very squared away dudes with a shitload of experience.

I am to the point now where 100$ for a peace of mind aint shit. So if I personally trust something 100% it is well spent.

[einherjarvalk]

The XH30/XH35 are Masterfire holster-compatible, and also have a switch on the bottom for selectable hi/low output if memory serves.

Why you'd ever want "low output" on a weaponlight is beyond me, but it's there.

[Grey]

The XH30/XH35 are Masterfire holster-compatible, and also have a switch on the bottom for selectable hi/low output if memory serves.

Why you'd ever want "low output" on a weaponlight is beyond me, but it's there.To quote a far more knowledge person, "All the lumens, all the time."

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Trukinjp13]

The XH30/XH35 are Masterfire holster-compatible, and also have a switch on the bottom for selectable hi/low output if memory serves.

Why you'd ever want "low output" on a weaponlight is beyond me, but it's there.

Thanks, apparently I had forgotten all about that.

To be fair the low is not terribly low and may be better indoors.

[rcbusmc24]

I like both the Stream light and the Surefire offerings and believe that either will serve you well. Personally I feel (rather than know for sure, other that when testing various lights at some Pat Rogers classes in the past. This information might not correlate to these brand new lights...) that the beam on the surefire x300u series lights throws slightly farther and burns through a phosphorescent barrier slightly better than a comparable stream light, which does seem to have a wider pattern, though the amount that that matters would be up to you to decide. I am a firm believer in all the lumens, all the time as well. I like the DG switch that surefire makes slightly better that the comparable switch for stream light. Honestly though.... with 12 to 13ish or so X300U A and Bs in service on various pistols and rifles, the biggest thing that keeps me on the surefire train is Holsters, Swapping lights out now would be very expensive holster wise, But for someone buying one light to put on one gun that is really not as much of a concern. I am quite enjoying the XH35 on a offset mount on AR's where I'm trying to keep the weight down, while still providing all the lumens that I can.

As for low lumen output on weapons lights, It can be useful on long guns for breaching, other than that I'm not really sure and I would not want to be flipping those tiny levers on the fly. Rather have a separate small light mounted for that.

[s0nspark]

Cool! I was already planning to order another X300U next week :)

[Grey]

Just an FYI. I looked into this light, its only 3000 candela which means its very much a flood light and not a "good" defensive light by the standards of some SMEs. For reference, the X300U B is 16,500 candela, and the TLR 1 HL is 12,000.

[theJanitor]

The specs in the Recoilweb article says 11,300 candela, so i'm sure it'll still punch pretty hard

https://i.imgur.com/uJsmtyd.jpg?1

for comparison, I recently moved from the 500 lumen EB2 handheld to the 1200 lumen EDCL2-T. At first i thought it didn't project as hard a beam as the 500 lumen model, but I'm thinking that it's still punching through as hard, but because there is more flood as well, my perception is that the center beam isn't as tight.

[Grey]

The specs in the Recoilweb article says 11,300 candela, so i'm sure it'll still punch pretty hard

https://i.imgur.com/uJsmtyd.jpg?1

for comparison, I recently moved from the 500 lumen EB2 handheld to the 1200 lumen EDCL2-T. At first i thought it didn't project as hard a beam as the 500 lumen model, but I'm thinking that it's still punching through as hard, but because there is more flood as well, my perception is that the center beam isn't as tight.

You're right, I got this confused with the XH35!

[Norville]

Just an FYI. I looked into this light, its only 3000 candela which means its very much a flood light and not a "good" defensive light by the standards of some SMEs. For reference, the X300U B is 16,500 candela, and the TLR 1 HL is 12,000.

The spec sheet in the linked article says 11,300 candela with a 213m beam distance. That’s based on some obscure test to a reflective target, but I don’t think it’s a pure flood light.

[Gio]

The spec sheet in the linked article says 11,300 candela with a 213m beam distance. That’s based on some obscure test to a reflective target, but I don’t think it’s a pure flood light.

You always have to take manufacturer’s specs with a grain of salt, but I do think surefire and streamlight tend to be fairly accurate in their claims. Streamlight lists 15,000 candela for the tlr1 HL, which should indicate slightly more throw than this upgraded x300U.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Good move on Surefire to keep the same footprint/housing.

This ^^^ was significant for me. The new XH series lights require new holsters for on and off duty. That alone becomes an issue.

As for the Streamlight products, I’m fine with their output. However because of the strobe feature that cannot be permanently disabled there is very little chance I’ll buy any more of their lights.

[orionz06]

You always have to take manufacturer’s specs with a grain of salt, but I do think surefire and streamlight tend to be fairly accurate in their claims. Streamlight lists 15,000 candela for the tlr1 HL, which should indicate slightly more throw than this upgraded x300U.

I've seen some of what Surefire does to get their numbers and how they compare to the Chinese companies... I'd trust SF well before anyone else.

[s0nspark]

This ^^^ was significant for me. The new XH series lights require new holsters for on and off duty. That alone becomes an issue.

As for the Streamlight products, I’m fine with their output. However of the strobe feature that cannot be permanently disabled there is very little chance I’ll buy any more of their lights.

Ditto on both!

I'm an "all the lumens" kind of guy but I am also very fond of the X300U from a usability (and familiarity) standpoint. Neither the TLR-1HL nor the XH35 swayed me...

Also, I freaking hate strobes on any kind of carry light. This ain't a disco! ;-)

[Gio]

This was a good comparison video between the TLR-1 HL, XH35, and XH30:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ngcYGRjc1k

[s0nspark]

The updated X300U models are now available in the Surefire web store...

[Mirolynmonbro]

Does anyone think streamlight will be updating the TLR1HL next?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

I am definitely NOT in the "all the lumens all the time" camp. In many ways, the current marketing race to "more lumens" is counter-productive, especially if you plan on using this newly "upgraded" X300 for home defense. Something to consider: with dark-adapted vision (like waking up to a bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night), indoors 1,000 lumens will blind you too.

I have spent a lot of time testing different lights for the exclusive use indoors for self defense with dark adapted vision. I have a collection of lights that range from sub 1-lumen to over 1,200 lumens. My experimentation takes place in the middle of the night with vision adapted to the very low level of ambient light inside our house. With my vision adapted to those levels, I find something in the 10 to 20 lumen range provides enough light to positively identify a potential adversary without blinding myself in the process. Even 60 lumens creates a momentary "sting" to my vision that takes a second to adapt to. If I fire up my 1,000 lumen Malkoff Wildcat in that same scenario, I am out of the fight from total, squinty-eye blindness for way too long due to the intense splash-back of light.

Here's another experiment, this one outdoors at night: our backyard is perhaps about 100 feet deep by 100 feet wide, completely surrounded by woods. About 300 feet away is a pond that is visible through the woods. With night adapted vision, I can see the reflections from the surface of the pond and the outlines of the trees between my back yard and the pond. Using that same 1,000 lumen light, the immediate woods looks like daylight but everything beyond that goes total black. In other words, my vision adapts to the high level of illumination provided by the light, but at the expense of being able to see anything beyond. If I do the same with up to about 60 lumens of light, I can clearly see detail in everything that is illuminated and at the same time, maintain the limited "night vision" of the trees and the pond.

It has been through this process that I've come to appreciate the utility of lower-lumen light sources that are less likely to disrupt my low light adapted vision.

This is NOT to say that high-powered WMLs do not have their place, as they most certainly do. If one is going from bright light into low light (like stepping into a dark warehouse from daylight conditions), more lumens is most certainly better. If the light itself is to be used as a close-range weapon to disorient an adversary, then more lumens is better. But with any high-powered light that is used intermittently comes the disadvantage of temporarily compromising dark-adapted vision between those bursts of intense light.

I'm sure SF will sell plenty of the latest, more powerful X300 but for my use on a pistol for indoor home defense in low light conditions, the inability to select a lower output level greatly limits its utility. Depending on how you use an artificial light source, more is not always better.

[s0nspark]

I am definitely NOT in the "all the lumens all the time" camp. In many ways, the current marketing race to "more lumens" is counter-productive, especially if you plan on using this newly "upgraded" X300 for home defense. Something to consider: with dark-adapted vision (like waking up to a bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night), indoors 1,000 lumens will blind you too.


Hmm. More lumens/candela from a quality light simply gives you more options. You can always use it indirectly if shining it directly on a surface or scene is overpowering. You can't, however, goose a weak light to give you more when it isn't enough ;-)

[orionz06]

I am definitely NOT in the "all the lumens all the time" camp. In many ways, the current marketing race to "more lumens" is counter-productive, especially if you plan on using this newly "upgraded" X300 for home defense. Something to consider: with dark-adapted vision (like waking up to a bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night), indoors 1,000 lumens will blind you too.

I have spent a lot of time testing different lights for the exclusive use indoors for self defense with dark adapted vision. I have a collection of lights that range from sub 1-lumen to over 1,200 lumens. My experimentation takes place in the middle of the night with vision adapted to the very low level of ambient light inside our house. With my vision adapted to those levels, I find something in the 10 to 20 lumen range provides enough light to positively identify a potential adversary without blinding myself in the process. Even 60 lumens creates a momentary "sting" to my vision that takes a second to adapt to. If I fire up my 1,000 lumen Malkoff Wildcat in that same scenario, I am out of the fight from total, squinty-eye blindness for way too long due to the intense splash-back of light.

Here's another experiment, this one outdoors at night: our backyard is perhaps about 100 feet deep by 100 feet wide, completely surrounded by woods. About 300 feet away is a pond that is visible through the woods. With night adapted vision, I can see the reflections from the surface of the pond and the outlines of the trees between my back yard and the pond. Using that same 1,000 lumen light, the immediate woods looks like daylight but everything beyond that goes total black. In other words, my vision adapts to the high level of illumination provided by the light, but at the expense of being able to see anything beyond. If I do the same with up to about 60 lumens of light, I can clearly see detail in everything that is illuminated and at the same time, maintain the limited "night vision" of the trees and the pond.

It has been through this process that I've come to appreciate the utility of lower-lumen light sources that are less likely to disrupt my low light adapted vision.

This is NOT to say that high-powered WMLs do not have their place, as they most certainly do. If one is going from bright light into low light (like stepping into a dark warehouse from daylight conditions), more lumens is most certainly better. If the light itself is to be used as a close-range weapon to disorient an adversary, then more lumens is better. But with any high-powered light that is used intermittently comes the disadvantage of temporarily compromising dark-adapted vision between those bursts of intense light.

I'm sure SF will sell plenty of the latest, more powerful X300 but for my use on a pistol for indoor home defense in low light conditions, the inability to select a lower output level greatly limits its utility. Depending on how you use an artificial light source, more is not always better.

Hmm. I've done similar, perhaps not as intensive as this sounds though. My eyes were smoked once my X300 was turned on. For that reason once the cat's outta the bag I want it all, I want it now, and I want more. The X300-1K is a placeholder for the 1500 lumen version.

[s0nspark]

Hmm. I've done similar, perhaps not as intensive as this sounds though. My eyes were smoked once my X300 was turned on. For that reason once the cat's outta the bag I want it all, I want it now, and I want more. The X300-1K is a placeholder for the 1500 lumen version.

Let's just do 2k. No one would ever need more ... j/k

[NH Shooter]

If I could have it my way, I'd want a X300U-A (QD mount) with the Streamlight-style switch that rotates - one direction for high (how ever many lumens they want to pack in), the opposite way for low (around 50 lumens would IMO be about right). While they're at it, eliminate the constant-on lock at the end of the switch travel so it's strictly momentary operation. That in combination with a good hand-held light would IMO pretty much cover all the bases.

BTW, I'll be at the Sig Academy this weekend for the Low Light Pistol Operator course. I'll be bringing a few hand-held lights, including the Malkoff Bodyguard (600 lumens) and another 1-CR123 size Malkoff with their M61NLL (60 lumen) drop-in. Trying a selection of EDC torches in low-light, live-fire exercises will certainly shed some light on this subject. :-)

[s0nspark]

If I could have it my way, I'd want a X300U-A (QD mount) with the Streamlight-style switch that rotates - one direction for high (how ever many lumens they want to pack in), the opposite way for low (around 50 lumens would IMO be about right). While they're at it, eliminate the constant-on lock at the end of the switch travel so it's strictly momentary operation. That in combination with a good hand-held light would IMO pretty much cover all the bases.


That would be an interesting setup.

I'd like it to be programmable as to which direction was which for low and high... and, personally, I wouldn't want to lose always-on functionality. I use that a lot more than momentary.

[Trukinjp13]

I prefer the Surefire switching by a long shot personally. I also do not want a rotary switch for hi and low. When I need it in a split second I do not want to hit the switch the wrong way. If I am using it in either hand the switching would then be different for up and down. Also I would never use my pistol for low light work, that is what my handheld is for.

Personally. I would prefer the surefire switching with a bezel twist for hi and low. This gives me a option for low that is very deliberate. My light would always be on hi and only switched to low when needed. I like to have a push for momentary and rotary to lock on. This is easy for one handed manipulations as well as two.

Ever since doing some training at night with a streamlight and the surefire I will always prefer the Surefire for defensive purposes. I just do not like the rotary one way for momentary and one way for constant.


As far as lumens the 600 is pretty much the top of what I would want inside my house. And that seems excessive to me. But it does not blind me and I can id a target quickly.

[spinmove_]

This ^^^ was significant for me. The new XH series lights require new holsters for on and off duty. That alone becomes an issue.

As for the Streamlight products, I’m fine with their output. However because of the strobe feature that cannot be permanently disabled there is very little chance I’ll buy any more of their lights.

This. Backwards compatibility is nice, although I don’t have any light bearing holsters. Moreso the fact that disco-mode is a thing that can’t be removed is a problem. I like Surefire’s switchology better too.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[NH Shooter]

Switching output modes via a bezel switch is indeed a slick interface. I use the high-low bezel switch with my Malkoff lights and very much like it. My only concern with a bezel switch on a X300 is that in most cases it would require flesh out front of the muzzle.

Another discovery that surprised me;

I had recently purchased a M61NLL 60-lumen drop-in for one of my EDC lights. I was out one night with that light and one with a Malkoff M361 drop-in that produces 400 lumens on high. I had spent about 10 minutes admiring the new 60-lumen drop-in when I turned it off and immediately turned on the 400 lumen drop-in. At first I thought something was wrong with it - it was brighter, but not that much brighter. My ability to see and discern detail was not significantly different between the 60 lumens and 400 in that outdoor setting. Note that both drop-ins use the same reflector design and have identical beam patterns. This leads me to believe that if I activated a light at 60 lumens instead of 400 or 500, it would most likely not make a critical difference.

I also agree that I would only use the WML if I intended to fire the pistol. In all other cases I would default to a hand held - at this point I am using a hand held for both search and firing anyway.

[Gio]

This ^^^ was significant for me. The new XH series lights require new holsters for on and off duty. That alone becomes an issue.

As for the Streamlight products, I’m fine with their output. However because of the strobe feature that cannot be permanently disabled there is very little chance I’ll buy any more of their lights.

The strobe can be permanently disabled on TLR-1 HL's. It uses the same 10-tap programming that their handheld lights use.

[Gio]

I am definitely NOT in the "all the lumens all the time" camp. In many ways, the current marketing race to "more lumens" is counter-productive, especially if you plan on using this newly "upgraded" X300 for home defense. Something to consider: with dark-adapted vision (like waking up to a bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night), indoors 1,000 lumens will blind you too.


There is a definite difference in how light sensitive you are when waking up from a dead sleep vs. already being awake, such as a law enforcement search of a dark area. One technique when waking up from a dead sleep is to start activating the light by indirectly shining it on the ceiling or floor to get your eyes adapted to seeing light. You can also use this technique for searching/clearing your house. I don't recommend ever staring directly at the place the hot spot of the light is aimed at indoors unless you're aiming it directly at a threat.


I also agree that I would only use the WML if I intended to fire the pistol. In all other cases I would default to a hand held - at this point I am using a hand held for both search and firing anyway.
A WML can be very useful for searching indoors if you use it indirectly as described above. If there is a chance there is a threat inside, I use a WML 100% to clear a building. After the building has been cleared of people, I will switch to a handheld if we are searching for anything else like evidence. At this point in where we are with lights and technology, a handheld light should be a last resort/backup for use in a gun fight as a LEO, not the primary plan. I think it's much less critical for non-LE, outside of home defense, to have a WML because the chances of searching or being in a structure where there is no ambient light is almost non-existent for most people.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

NH Shooter

I understand your thought process but I can't even begin to describe how much I disagree with your recommendation.

Wether it's my handgun or my rifle, I want my light source to be as bright as humanly possible, have only one brightness level or function, and have one simple switching system. Surefire is the only company to do this consistently and do it well. I have owned and used every version of the X300 and I for one am ecstatic that they made it bright as hell in the same housing/footprint.

Surefire has improved the overall beam pattern tremendously over the last couple of revisions. The throw is wide and relatively soft on the eyes even in pitch black with light colored walls and the hotspot is incredibly intense. I never really understood the importance of that intense hotspot until I started pointing weapons at people, in the dark, while issuing verbal commands to gain compliance as part of my job description.

This becomes Paramount when you factor in vehicles and trying to shine your light through auto glass to illuminate a car full of people trying to do, or reach for, who knows the fuck what. When street lights or house lights interfere with that environment and create barriers then I want as much light as humanly possible and I don't want to fiddle fuck with switches and there damn sure better be a constant on.

And as far as blinding yourself with your own light, especially in your own home (IE: HD Situation)...you are doing it wrong. Know your environment and use techniques that work on environments you don't know.

I plan to upgrade at least two of my U-Boats as soon as they become available from my preferred vendors. Thank you Surefire.

[TCB]

More light is better. Yup.

Being blinded by 1000 lumens and being taken outta the fight? Nope.

I’ve been in white walled single wides with floor to ceiling mirrors all over the place with 500 & 1000 lumen lights searching for subjects then right back out into the thick brush with no deficiencies to my vision. 1000 lumen lights also turn into 700 and into 500 lumen lights pretty quickly when being used due to drain. This X300U is a step in the right direction.

[cmbarny2]

Respectfully I'm going to have to majorly disagree with the low lumen idea. 10-20 lumens is not nearly enough, you might as well carry a candle with you and save yourself the batteries at that point. If you haven't yet you should watch Aaron Cowan's videos on low light usage.
Even with a 5-600 lumen light I can have shadows in my very small apartment. I for one can't wait to grab the 1000lm X300U for my duty gun to go along with my 1500lm rifle light and my 1000lm handheld light. I have a SL penlight I carry as well but its use is super limited as in searching under the seat of a car where at a distance of less than a foot I don't need to burn through CR123s to see or to light up a Drivers License at night to read while I already have others burning the night light with 1000lm lights.

As far as Streamlight vs Surefire. I prefer SF for all weapon lights. I prefer the switches and prefer the shade of their light compared to SL. To my eyes surefire lights look more yellow where Streamlight light looks more blue. I don't need flashy disco when I activate my light and like that it takes more pressure to activate the SF switch. If I didn't have a choice I would rock a TLR1HL without fault but I do have a choice and Surefire is who I go with. That being said I do rock a HLX as my handheld and a Stinger as my primary light when working nights. I was issued the Stinger but I purchased the HLX because I wanted a rechargeable handheld and at the time the Fury DF wasn't out yet and I liked the price of the HLX too. I probably wont replace my handhelds until the die on me which I don't foresee happening. I do upgrade my WMLs every chance I get for both on duty and off duty.

Just last week I cleared a vacant house that was supposed to have squatters living in it. The front door we entered through was on the east side of the house leaving all sunlight to my back and only illuminating the front room. My 600lm X300U was good for pushing through to the back of the house but with it being vacant the dust in the air immediately cuts down on visible light. I would have much preferred the 1000lm version. First off for cutting through the dust, second for subject control if I needed it. With the sun to my back entering a house it leaves me illuminated, if someone appeared in front I want that light to overpower my back lighting and take advantage. I want the same thing when I wake up to a bump in the night. I want over powering to someones sense. The bounce-back lumens you get are no where near the amount of light the subject is getting in their sense and 10-20 lumens isn't getting you anywhere with that.

[spinmove_]

Yeah, I most definitely want all the lumens. I just got back from a low-light pistol class this past weekend. My 350 lumen Streamlight ProTac-2L did me almost no favors when it came to defeating light used against me.

PIDing a target just sitting in the dark. It worked ok for that. Defeating photonic barriers or combating light aimed at me? Need way more lumens.

If you’re blinding yourself indoors you’re doing it wrong and you need a low-light class.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[John Hearne]

Lumens = Information*

How much information do you want - all you can get.
How many lumens do you want - all you can get.

You'll blind yourself has been the "conventional wisdom" for a long time but it doesn't hold up to the real world. In order to shoot, you have to have PID. The only way to get it is to dump as much light as possible. I've played around with 1200 lumen rifle lights and found them to be wonderful for that role. Having taken an excellent low light carbine class, I'm in line for the 1,000 lumen X300 and am thinking really hard about the 1,500 lumen DF Scout.

Inside, just a little technique mitigates the "blinding" concerns. Aim the light high or low and allow the spill to give you the info.

* Stolen from Will Petty

[John Hearne]

My observations from Ron Fielder's low light class seem appropriate:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14961-Class-Review-Personal-Responsibility-Ron-Fielder-s-Low-Light-Carbine

[Mirolynmonbro]

I like the idea of of all the lumens, I don't like the idea of changing to a new light and holster when something brighter comes out [emoji24]

Glad the x300 was upgraded and kept the same. I'll probably stick with my tlr1hl just so I don't have to buy new gear again

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[s0nspark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bva-gCWLG3c

[Erick Gelhaus]

The strobe can be permanently disabled on TLR-1 HL's. It uses the same 10-tap programming that their handheld lights use.

Respectfully, the strobe lock out on both the TLR1 HL and the ProTacHL-X are temporary from my experience. And that was with square range and indoor simulator work.

[NH Shooter]

For all of you more is better all the time crowd;

https://www.oveready.com/flashlight/triple-surefire-x300u-v5-upgrade-service/

Sheesh, 1000 lumens is little girly stuff. ;-)

[s0nspark]

For all of you more is better all the time crowd;

https://www.oveready.com/flashlight/triple-surefire-x300u-v5-upgrade-service/

Sheesh, 1000 lumens is little girly stuff. ;-)

Pffft. How cute.... Go BIG [emoji4]


https://youtu.be/-JVqRy0sWWY

Just waiting on a chest rig LOL

[Gio]

Respectfully, the strobe lock out on both the TLR1 HL and the ProTacHL-X are temporary from my experience. And that was with square range and indoor simulator work.

Temporary in what sense? I’ve been using a tlr1 weekly that I disabled strobe on when I first took it out of the package using the 10 tap programming and haven’t had it activate since. That was 2-3 years ago at this point.

[NH Shooter]

I've done similar, perhaps not as intensive as this sounds though. My eyes were smoked once my X300 was turned on. For that reason once the cat's outta the bag I want it all, I want it now, and I want more.

Yes, that is my point. A quote from this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/nightvision.html ;


Both light and dark transient adaptation occur in about a second, although exact timing depends on size of the light/dark change. Crawford's (1947) classic study investigated how light adaptation would proceed for a driver entering and leaving a tunnel. He measured sensitivity to a target at various times just before, during and after a sudden light level change. There is a large loss of sensitivity for a second or less light goes on (light adaptation) or off (dark adaptation). This transient adaptation (or "masking by light," Green, 1981; Green, 1984) occurs on a much shorter time scale, lasting a few seconds or less in most cases. This effect has major implications in many situations. Any sudden transition of lighting conditions will greatly impair vision. For example, light flashes, such as from a gun or strobe or headlamp glare, will have two effects. They will adapt the viewer to a higher level of illumination, requiring the gradual slow-phase reacquisition of dark adaptation over several minutes. But they will cause a strong short-term adaptation effect that lasts a second or two.

Lastly, adaptation effects have large safety implications. Whenever a person transitions from a brightly lit or very dark environment to one of very different luminance, there will be a large visual loss. Elderly people exhibit impaired abilities and suffer the largest visual loss due to abrupt light changes. Proper design should create smooth transitions from light to dark. For example, building entrances and tunnels now often incorporate a zone of middle light level between the dark night outside and the bright interior lighting. This smoother transition minimizes adaptation effects and permits better vision.

Eye adaptation (from light to dark and visa versa) from this source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye) ;


The eye takes approximately 20–30 minutes to fully adapt from bright sunlight to complete darkness and becomes 10,000 to 1,000,000 times more sensitive than at full daylight. In this process, the eye's perception of color changes as well (this is called the Purkinje effect). However, it takes approximately five minutes for the eye to adapt from darkness to bright sunlight. This is due to cones obtaining more sensitivity when first entering the dark for the first five minutes but the rods taking over after five or more minutes.[2] Cone cells are able to regain maximum retinal sensitivity in 9–10 minutes of darkness whereas rods require 30–45 minutes to do so.

The take away from this is that if your vision is already adapted to higher light levels (brightly lit night scenes, daylight) and need to clear a dark warehouse of bad guys, then absolutely "all the lumens all the time."

However, if my vision is already adapted to low light, overwhelming it with a blast of intense white light is actually going to dramatically impair my vision for at least a few seconds. From this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/policeshooting.html ;


6. Light adaptation impairs perception. The eye sees contrast best when it is adapted to the same light level as the current scene. For example, a person walking into a movie theater during the day will at first see little more than blackness. After a few moments, the theater becomes brighter and objects become visible. This occurs because the eye adjusts sensitivity to the prevailing light level through the process of light adaptation. Visibility loss is greater when the difference between adapting level and viewing level is high and when there has been little time to adapt.


There is a definite difference in how light sensitive you are when waking up from a dead sleep vs. already being awake, such as a law enforcement search of a dark area.

Yes, exactly!

If I am awoken in the middle of the night with my vision fully dark adapted to investigate a possible intrusion, the lower the intensity of the light source used, the less my vision will be disrupted from a sudden change in illumination levels. Using a focused cone of light from a flashlight, as little as 5 lumens will provide the additional illumination needed to clearly see detail and make a PID of the dark outline standing at the bottom of the staircase. I have proven this to myself through experimentation: placing an IDPA target at the bottom of the staircase, I can see the embossed scoring rings with 5 lumens of focused light with little disruption of my dark adapted vision when the light is turned off. A quick blip of 60 lumens causes me to squint to see the target and have noticeable disruption of my vision for at least a few seconds when the light is turned off. Doing the same with 600 lumens is painful to say the least and completely obliterates my night vision.

So in conclusion, "all the lumens all the time"? In cases where my vision is already adapted to high levels of light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Light_adaptation) then absolutely yes. This is why I EDC a 600 lumen Malkoff Bodyguard. But in cases where my vision is dark adapted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Dark_adaptation) and I have a need/desire to retain sensitivity to the low light levels, using a lower intensity light source is the only way to accomplish this. This is why I keep a multi-level flashlight preset to the lowest possible range of output on my nightstand.

Now if only SF made that X300U-A with something like the Malkoff high-low switch (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/high-low-bezel-switch-for-md2) that would take the 1,000 lumens down to around 10...

[orionz06]

However, if my vision is already adapted to low light, overwhelming it with a blast of intense white light is actually going to dramatically impair my vision for at least a few seconds. From this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/policeshooting.html ;




My point is that no matter what light I use when I wake up my vision is fucked and we're in the moar light now mode.

[TCFD273]

Yes, that is my point. A quote from this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/nightvision.html ;



Eye adaptation (from light to dark and visa versa) from this source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye) ;



The take away from this is that if your vision is already adapted to higher light levels (brightly lit night scenes, daylight) and need to clear a dark warehouse of bad guys, then absolutely "all the lumens all the time."

However, if my vision is already adapted to low light, overwhelming it with a blast of intense white light is actually going to dramatically impair my vision for at least a few seconds. From this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/policeshooting.html ;





Yes, exactly!

If I am awoken in the middle of the night with my vision fully dark adapted to investigate a possible intrusion, the lower the intensity of the light source used, the less my vision will be disrupted from a sudden change in illumination levels. Using a focused cone of light from a flashlight, as little as 5 lumens will provide the additional illumination needed to clearly see detail and make a PID of the dark outline standing at the bottom of the staircase. I have proven this to myself through experimentation: placing an IDPA target at the bottom of the staircase, I can see the embossed scoring rings with 5 lumens of focused light with little disruption of my dark adapted vision when the light is turned off. A quick blip of 60 lumens causes me to squint to see the target and have noticeable disruption of my vision for at least a few seconds when the light is turned off. Doing the same with 600 lumens is painful to say the least and completely obliterates my night vision.

So in conclusion, "all the lumens all the time"? In cases where my vision is already adapted to high levels of light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Light_adaptation) then absolutely yes. This is why I EDC a 600 lumen Malkoff Bodyguard. But in cases where my vision is dark adapted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Dark_adaptation) and I have a need/desire to retain sensitivity to the low light levels, using a lower intensity light source is the only way to accomplish this. This is why I keep a multi-level flashlight preset to the lowest possible range of output on my nightstand.

Now if only SF made that X300U-A with something like the Malkoff high-low switch (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/high-low-bezel-switch-for-md2) that would take the 1,000 lumens down to around 10...

The idea that you’re going to be startled awake by an intruder, or face a lethal force encounter as a private citizen on the street and utilize a “switch” to adjust lumens based on your environment in those situations...is dubious at best.

I can tell you from my experience, simple is better. The last thing I want to deal with is adjusting bezels, or turn this for this and flip this for that. I want a simple way to activate the light....every time.


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[spinmove_]

Yes, that is my point. A quote from this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/nightvision.html ;



Eye adaptation (from light to dark and visa versa) from this source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye) ;



The take away from this is that if your vision is already adapted to higher light levels (brightly lit night scenes, daylight) and need to clear a dark warehouse of bad guys, then absolutely "all the lumens all the time."

However, if my vision is already adapted to low light, overwhelming it with a blast of intense white light is actually going to dramatically impair my vision for at least a few seconds. From this article - http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/policeshooting.html ;





Yes, exactly!

If I am awoken in the middle of the night with my vision fully dark adapted to investigate a possible intrusion, the lower the intensity of the light source used, the less my vision will be disrupted from a sudden change in illumination levels. Using a focused cone of light from a flashlight, as little as 5 lumens will provide the additional illumination needed to clearly see detail and make a PID of the dark outline standing at the bottom of the staircase. I have proven this to myself through experimentation: placing an IDPA target at the bottom of the staircase, I can see the embossed scoring rings with 5 lumens of focused light with little disruption of my dark adapted vision when the light is turned off. A quick blip of 60 lumens causes me to squint to see the target and have noticeable disruption of my vision for at least a few seconds when the light is turned off. Doing the same with 600 lumens is painful to say the least and completely obliterates my night vision.

So in conclusion, "all the lumens all the time"? In cases where my vision is already adapted to high levels of light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Light_adaptation) then absolutely yes. This is why I EDC a 600 lumen Malkoff Bodyguard. But in cases where my vision is dark adapted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Dark_adaptation) and I have a need/desire to retain sensitivity to the low light levels, using a lower intensity light source is the only way to accomplish this. This is why I keep a multi-level flashlight preset to the lowest possible range of output on my nightstand.

Now if only SF made that X300U-A with something like the Malkoff high-low switch (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/high-low-bezel-switch-for-md2) that would take the 1,000 lumens down to around 10...

Except that if I needed to defeat a photonic barrier and/or control a possible threat I don’t want to be futzing around with switching from 10 lumens to 1,000+ on a handheld or a WML. I want it, nay, NEED, ALL of those lumens NOW. YESTERDAY even if that was possible.

If I’m responding to something that might even possibly be a threat, whether its inside the home or not, I don’t want to be playing Bop-It with my flashlight. I want the sun in the palm of my hand giving me ALL of the information NOW while giving whatever probably shouldn’t be there public speaking anxiety and temporary blindness from putting a spotlight on them.


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[NH Shooter]

My point is that no matter what light I use when I wake up my vision is fucked and we're in the moar light now mode.

Have you tried something in the sub 5-lumen ("moonlight") range? The greater the change in illumination levels from ambient to artificially illuminated, the greater the disruption to dark adapted vision. I may attempt some photos to illustrate...

In regards to the X300 I had forgotten about these - https://www.surefire.com/f05-a-red-filter.html

[NH Shooter]

If I’m responding to something that might even possibly be a threat, whether its inside the home or not, I don’t want to be playing Bop-It with my flashlight. I want the sun in the palm of my hand giving me ALL of the information NOW while giving whatever probably shouldn’t be there public speaking anxiety and temporary blindness from putting a spotlight on them.

...and inside the home with night adapted vision, compromising your own vision in the process. All I need is enough light to PID the threat and then use lead instead of photons to deal with the threat.

[NH Shooter]

The idea that you’re going to be startled awake by an intruder, or face a lethal force encounter as a private citizen on the street and utilize a “switch” to adjust lumens based on your environment in those situations...is dubious at best.

Two very different scenarios. On the street my vision is already light adapted where I need maximum output, startled awake in the middle of the night with my vision is dark adapted I need far less. Being able to preset the output based on these factors is a benefit.


I can tell you from my experience, simple is better. The last thing I want to deal with is adjusting bezels, or turn this for this and flip this for that. I want a simple way to activate the light....every time.

Yes. It's called the Malkoff bezel switch: loosen bezel for low output every time, all the time; tighten bezel for full output, every time all the time. Malkoff and HDS have simple interfaces for pre-selecting output. I do agree that UIs that require multiple presses of the switch to get to the desired output are clunky and unsuitable for anything but utilitarian purposes.

[TCFD273]

[QUOTE=NH Shooter;772348]Two very different scenarios. On the street my vision is already light adapted where I need maximum output, startled awake in the middle of the night with my vision is dark adapted I need far less. Being able to preset the output based on these factors is a benefit.



For the past 15yrs, I’ve gone from asleep to being awoken by LOUD bells, BRIGHT lights and working as fast as possible well north of 4,000 times. (First time I’ve ever added this up).

My experience is very different than yours, and I’ve never found it an issue.

I’ve gone from asleep to searching and scanning with very bright lights on multiple occasions on my property, never found it an issue.




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[spinmove_]

...and inside the home with night adapted vision, compromising your own vision in the process. All I need is enough light to PID the threat and then use lead instead of photons to deal with the threat.

My experience does not mirror yours. When I go to identify something in the dark, regardless of what it is, it takes me longer to process what I’m looking at with a dimmer light than a much brighter one.

Conversely, if I’m not being bombarded with any sort of artificial light in the dark, but doing the searching myself with a bright light, I find that my night vision doesn’t really suffer much.

Have you tried using your lights and lighting techniques in a class or FoF environment? I’ve not had the opportunity to do FoF yet myself, but with the experience I have gathered thus far is taking me from a fairly simple light (Streamlight ProTac-2L set to ONLY high output (350 lumens) with a clicky tailcap) to an even simpler and far brighter light with retention (Surefire EDCL2-T with Thyrm Switchback 2.0).


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[NH Shooter]

For the past 15yrs, I’ve gone from asleep to being awoken by LOUD bells, BRIGHT lights and working as fast as possible well north of 4,000 times.


I suspect that when the loud bell rings and the lights come on, that your first task is to gear-up and get to the truck. By the time you get to the truck (60 seconds?) your vision is already adapting before you have to make any detailed observations (or life or death decisions).

Contrast that to waking up to a loud bell, but no lights. In the darkness, you must deal with a potential deadly threat perhaps within seconds of being rudely awakened, with vision fully night adapted. When face-to-face with a potential deadly threat, does doing anything to compromise your sight sound like a good idea?

To your point, it's all situation dependent. A one-size-fits-all solution of "all the lumens all the time" could be a poor one in certain cases.

[Dagga Boy]

My experience is a bit limited as I only spent 19 years of working weekend nights in patrol division and multiple shootings and tens of thousands of both interior and exterior searches. With that I want to attach the sun to my pistol if it is possible. The X300 series is the right size to lumen size and the new 1000 lumen variant is the one that is on my new bedside pistol.

[TCFD273]

I suspect that when the loud bell rings and the lights come on, that your first task is to gear-up and get to the truck. By the time you get to the truck (60 seconds?) your vision is already adapting before you have to make any detailed observations (or life or death decisions).

Contrast that to waking up to a loud bell, but no lights. In the darkness, you must deal with a potential deadly threat perhaps within seconds of being rudely awakened, with vision fully night adapted. When face-to-face with a potential deadly threat, does doing anything to compromise your sight sound like a good idea?

To your point, it's all situation dependent. A one-size-fits-all solution of "all the lumens all the time" could be a poor one in certain cases.

You’re talking about 2 different things, the ability to see, and the ability to think and process information rapidly.

I’ve never woken up shielding my eyes, rubbing them etc....just start moving.

We are going in circles.

I’m not as experienced as some on here, but I assure you high lumen output is a force multiplier. Seen it, done it kind of thing.

Set an alarm for 3am, wake up and shine the brightest light you have out of your bedroom door....I promise it will have minimal effect on YOU.






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[NH Shooter]

My experience does not mirror yours. When I go to identify something in the dark, regardless of what it is, it takes me longer to process what I’m looking at with a dimmer light than a much brighter one.

Understood. If my eyesight is already adapted to (for example) normal indoor lighting at night, and then I go outside to walk the dogs, I definitely benefit from more light.

At night when I get up to take a leak, I can easily get to the bathroom and pee in the 10-ring with just the ambient light coming in through the windows. If I accidently hit the light switch on the way in, it takes me a few seconds (and very squinty eyes) to recover and avoid peeing on the floor...and then I got to feel my way back to bed.

It's when I get up to pee in the middle of the night that I've determined the best level of light needed to see the scoring rings on the target set up in a stand at the base of the steps. With night sights on the pistol, I can easily see the rings and establish an A-zone hold without shocking my vision with too much light. In that situation with the level of ambient light and with my eyes adapted to it, 10 focused lumens looks like a search light.

IMO, I cannot think of any better way to determine exactly what works best for me in that specific scenario.

[NH Shooter]

Set an alarm for 3am, wake up and shine the brightest light you have out of your bedroom door....I promise it will have minimal effect on YOU.

See my previous post. Even 60 lumens causes me to squint for a few seconds, which is obviously a physiological reaction to a sudden and large change in light level. And FWIW, that is the specific scenario I am discussing - waking up in the middle of the night with dark adapted vision. Not low light carbine classes, not clearing a warehouse as a SWAT team member, etc.

If all I need to do is PID a person inside my home in the dark standing 15 feet away, I sure as hell don't need a 1,000-lumen light and it's night vision killing liability to do so.

[NH Shooter]

The X300 series is the right size to lumen size and the new 1000 lumen variant is the one that is on my new bedside pistol.

Nice Beretta - lust!

I like the X300U-A with the QD mount. Since I don't carry with a WML attached, the QD feature would make attaching the light at night and detaching before holstering a breeze. And I'd run it with the red filter for the middle-of-the-night scenario I'm describing...

[s0nspark]

Even 60 lumens causes me to squint for a few seconds, which is obviously a physiological reaction to a sudden and large change in light level.

Due to previous eye surgeries, my eyes are overly sensitive to light. Up close I need very little light in order to see what I need to see. but at distance, I find I need more light than many might.

Even so, I routinely use a 600 lumen SF P2X Fury Tactical handheld at night going from near darkness to full-on, in small rooms, with just a brief ramp-up period, achieved by starting with the light bezel down on the nightstand or bed.

All of that is to say: (personal) needs will shape choices. Perhaps yours are just different?

[NH Shooter]

Even so, I routinely use a 600 lumen SF P2X Fury Tactical handheld at night going from near darkness to full-on, in small rooms, with just a brief ramp-up period, achieved by starting with the light bezel down on the nightstand or bed.

Yes, that works for me as well: gradually changing the level of illumination from low to high helps vision to adjust. But it's that brief ramp-up time that I consider a distinct disadvantage. I don't want to place myself at a disadvantage by illuminating the space I occupy while leaving a potential adversary in the dark - I would prefer to save the light for the actual confrontation and use my night-adapted vision to maneuver myself into position. I also don't want to then hit the adversary with such a high level of light that I need to "ramp up" my own acuity to fully discern the target. That ramp-up can be entirely avoided with a lower level of illumination so as soon as I illuminate the target, I can instantly discern all the detail I need to for a PID.


All of that is to say: (personal) needs will shape choices. Perhaps yours are just different?

Yes, we all have different thresholds for this. With dark adapted vision learning how much light is enough and how much is excessive for the purpose of PID is something I think is worth experimenting with. Outside with no nearby reflective surfaces, that level will no doubt be substantially higher before creating a need for the ramp-up you mention (if it even creates that need at all). On the other hand, the amount of light needed indoors with light bouncing between walls, ceiling and floor will undoubtedly be woefully inadequate outside, especially at longer distances.

It is that close quarters, enclosed inside situation with dark adapted vision scenario that I know for me the "all the lumens all the time" mantra becomes a liability.

[spinmove_]

Understood. If my eyesight is already adapted to (for example) normal indoor lighting at night, and then I go outside to walk the dogs, I definitely benefit from more light.

At night when I get up to take a leak, I can easily get to the bathroom and pee in the 10-ring with just the ambient light coming in through the windows. If I accidently hit the light switch on the way in, it takes me a few seconds (and very squinty eyes) to recover and avoid peeing on the floor...and then I got to feel my way back to bed.

It's when I get up to pee in the middle of the night that I've determined the best level of light needed to see the scoring rings on the target set up in a stand at the base of the steps. With night sights on the pistol, I can easily see the rings and establish an A-zone hold without shocking my vision with too much light. In that situation with the level of ambient light and with my eyes adapted to it, 10 focused lumens looks like a search light.

IMO, I cannot think of any better way to determine exactly what works best for me in that specific scenario.

Seeing scoring rings on a target is most definitely NOT the same thing as identifying whom might be in any given location with what they may or may not be holding in their hands.


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[Dagga Boy]

This is sort of one of those things where I just need to say “good luck, hope it works for you”. I must say that basing a home defense strategy on late night peeing is an interesting approach. I feel gifted...I don’t even need the light for that or to find the fridge. For dealing with potential human predators or a non hostile person in my home, I ll go with as much light as I can get.

[NH Shooter]

Seeing scoring rings on a target is most definitely NOT the same thing as identifying whom might be in any given location with what they may or may not be holding in their hands.

In what context?

An LEO trying to make a shoot/no-shoot decision? A civilian traversing a dark parking lot in fear of an approaching figure who they feel might be a threat?

Or an awoken-in-the-middle-of-the-night forced-entry scenario: holding the line at the top of a staircase in dark home, when all family members are accounted for and out of the line of fire, with an unknown contact making their way up the steps, in a state with a castle doctrine?

In the latter case, if I can discern the embossed score zones on a cardboard IDPA target with my night adapted vision, I can certainly discern the facial detail of the unknown contact 10 to 15 feet away coming up the steps to make a PID. Using the lower amount of light will mitigate the impact on my night vision and leave me the option of maneuvering/repositioning with the light off.

In the former case, if I'm leaving a normally illuminated store or restaurant with my light adapted vision, making my way through that seemingly very dark parking lot, I'll manage the unknown contact accordingly while hitting 'em with all the lumens I can muster.

As with most other things in life, one-size-fits-all solutions usually come with considerable limitations.

[Trukinjp13]

Since this thread I have tried a few different scenarios in my home. I live in the country and have lil lighting besides the moon. So even a full the bedroom is pretty dark. I tried to be in bed for as long as possible with no light and eyes closed. Not the same as from a dead sleep but close enough for me.



When I popped up and hit the x300u with the doors closed in my room. My vision was slightly altered. Not enough to effect anything on my end. Then I tried the tlr1 @300 lumens. It was barely better.

Then I tried to be on the other end of the light.
(Light is not on pistol)
I came in to the dark room and had the wife blast me with both lights. Made sure to adjust my vision down to dark between each trial. The SF at 600 really fucked me up. The tlr1 at 300 was nowhere near the same. I wish I had 1000 lumen light to try this. But I would bet it be that much worse on the receiving end. Long story short..Ill take my minor setback on the pistol side vs the motha fucker Im lighting up for breaking in my house. More lumens=betta

[NH Shooter]

Since this thread I have tried a few different scenarios in my home. I live in the country and have lil lighting besides the moon. So even a full the bedroom is pretty dark. I tried to be in bed for as long as possible with no light and eyes closed. Not the same as from a dead sleep but close enough for me.



When I popped up and hit the x300u with the doors closed in my room. My vision was slightly altered. Not enough to effect anything on my end. Then I tried the tlr1 @300 lumens. It was barely better.

Then I tried to be on the other end of the light.
(Light is not on pistol)
I came in to the dark room and had the wife blast me with both lights. Made sure to adjust my vision down to dark between each trial. The SF at 600 really fucked me up. The tlr1 at 300 was nowhere near the same. I wish I had 1000 lumen light to try this. But I would bet it be that much worse on the receiving end. Long story short..Ill take my minor setback on the pistol side vs the motha fucker Im lighting up for breaking in my house. More lumens=betta


Good stuff! You never know until you try, right?

BTW, it's not the lumens that count in this case - it's the lux. I believe the reflector-based TLR has a wider, less focused beam than the more tightly focused TIR lens-based X300. My Malkoff Wildcat is rated at 1100 lumens but because it's essentially a flood light, only about 6000 lux. My Malkoff M61T is about 400 lumens but due to the focused TIR lens, produces over 12,000 lux. The M61HOT is about 600 lumens and 20,000 lux.

The advantage inside of a higher lux-to-lumens ratio is more of the light hits the target and less hits the walls and ceiling, resulting in less back splash. No doubt beam pattern plays a role in all of this as well.

[Gio]

Since we're bringing up LUX/candela now, I will add that I prefer a weaponlight to have as much candela as possible. The max vision beam Surefires are a dumb idea for a weapon light. I don't want my weaponlight to look like turning on a light bulb in a room, I need it to be focused tightly on a high spot. I have used the brightness of an X300U and TLR-1HL to control subjects on multiple occasions and have seen the disorienting effects a light with that brightness and candela will have on someone. These lights can be painful to look at even in broad daylight from 5-10 yards away. Even in indoor settings, bouncing a high candela light off the ceiling or floor gives you plenty of ambient light to search a most rooms, so it makes little sense to choose a floody weaponlight over a high candela weaponlight. I'm a little disappointed this 1000 lumen X300U didn't maintain the Scout light head that the 600 lumen X300U's did with 16,500 candela. This new one reportedly has 11,300, which is going to be "floodier" than the 600 lumen models.

[NH Shooter]

BTW, in most cases - as long as lux is measured at one meter - lux and candela can be used interchangeably. Every lux rating I have seen for flashlights has been stated as one meter.

https://www.compuphase.com/electronics/candela_lumen.htm


One steradian on a sphere with a diameter of one metre gives a surface of one m2 (see the section on candela). From this, it follows that at a measuring distance of 1 metre, the values for candela (lumen per steradian) and lux (lumen per m2) are the same.

[NH Shooter]

I'm a little disappointed this 1000 lumen X300U didn't maintain the Scout light head that the 600 lumen X300U's did with 16,500 candela. This new one reportedly has 11,300, which is going to be "floodier" than the 600 lumen models.

Yup. Just more lumens hitting the walls and ceiling coming back at you, with less focused on the target. This is a trend with all of the newer higher-lumen SF lights.

BTW, the Malkoff E2 Super Throw/Scout M600 E2 head (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/surefire-drop-ins-for-e1-e2-and-scout-lights/products/e2-super-throw-scout-m600-2cr123-high-output-head) is rated at 650 lumens and 20,000 lux. It's got substantially more reach (and potentially less splash back inside) than the 1000-lumen X300.

Here's a 900-lumen/29,000 lux Malkoff Hound Dog on my carbine. Even on low at 30 lumens, the focused beam is still blinding;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/wml-5.jpg

[Whiskey_Bravo]

This is sort of one of those things where I just need to say “good luck, hope it works for you”. I must say that basing a home defense strategy on late night peeing is an interesting approach. I feel gifted...I don’t even need the light for that or to find the fridge. For dealing with potential human predators or a non hostile person in my home, I ll go with as much light as I can get.

So much sweet, simple, hairy wisdom right here.

[Trukinjp13]

Good stuff! You never know until you try, right?

BTW, it's not the lumens that count in this case - it's the lux. I believe the reflector-based TLR has a wider, less focused beam than the more tightly focused TIR lens-based X300. My Malkoff Wildcat is rated at 1100 lumens but because it's essentially a flood light, only about 6000 lux. My Malkoff M61T is about 400 lumens but due to the focused TIR lens, produces over 12,000 lux. The M61HOT is about 600 lumens and 20,000 lux.

The advantage inside of a higher lux-to-lumens ratio is more of the light hits the target and less hits the walls and ceiling, resulting in less back splash. No doubt beam pattern plays a role in all of this as well.

Damnit, you got me trying to find the lux rating of the tlr. I see what you are saying. But I feel they are pretty similar besides the lumens.

I tried a couple other lights that range from 350-500 tonight. Similar beam patterns. Do not know lux sorry. But the more was indeed always better. I do not own any lights with a wider flood pattern. They are useless to me where I live. I need lights that throw.

I have very blue eyes and they suck in the daylight. But x300u does not bother me that badly. The id of targets is unreal coming from a dark room. Esp if I try to look down my stairwell or hallway. The light just hunts. I am looking forward to the 1000 lumen big brother now. Up until I actually tried this in different scenarios I assumed it would be too much. Being on the receiving vs giving end was eye opening....

[spinmove_]

In the latter case, if I can discern the embossed score zones on a cardboard IDPA target with my night adapted vision, I can certainly discern the facial detail of the unknown contact 10 to 15 feet away coming up the steps to make a PID. Using the lower amount of light will mitigate the impact on my night vision and leave me the option of maneuvering/repositioning with the light off.



Have you actually tested that?


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[Gio]

Damnit, you got me trying to find the lux rating of the tlr. I see what you are saying. But I feel they are pretty similar besides the lumens.

I tried a couple other lights that range from 350-500 tonight. Similar beam patterns. Do not know lux sorry. But the more was indeed always better. I do not own any lights with a wider flood pattern. They are useless to me where I live. I need lights that throw.

I have very blue eyes and they suck in the daylight. But x300u does not bother me that badly. The id of targets is unreal coming from a dark room. Esp if I try to look down my stairwell or hallway. The light just hunts. I am looking forward to the 1000 lumen big brother now. Up until I actually tried this in different scenarios I assumed it would be too much. Being on the receiving vs giving end was eye opening....

It's 15k candela per their website: https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/tlr-1-hl

I have both a x300U and the TLR-1 HL and honestly would have to nitpick to tell the difference. The X300U is more green and the TLR-1 HL is more cool white. The X300 as a more defined edge on the outer ring where the TLR does not. The TLR hot spot is slightly wider, but the intensity seems the same.

[s0nspark]

Yes, that works for me as well: gradually changing the level of illumination from low to high helps vision to adjust. But it's that brief ramp-up time that I consider a distinct disadvantage. I don't want to place myself at a disadvantage by illuminating the space I occupy while leaving a potential adversary in the dark - I would prefer to save the light for the actual confrontation and use my night-adapted vision to maneuver myself into position. I also don't want to then hit the adversary with such a high level of light that I need to "ramp up" my own acuity to fully discern the target. That ramp-up can be entirely avoided with a lower level of illumination so as soon as I illuminate the target, I can instantly discern all the detail I need to for a PID.

To be clear, I do not need a light just to navigate my house - I would only need to do the ramp-up I mentioned when I felt I actually needed to use the light for the first time for PID when searching. A quick sweep of the bezel off my body to the area of interest has worked really well for me and takes less than a second. Also, just to say, in the event of a kicked-in door or broken window at night we would be barricading, not searching.

As an aside, strict light discipline is certainly a thing but I feel like more is made of it (especially when speaking theoretically) than is generally warranted, particularly in a civilian context. None of us is Riddick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddick_(character)), after all... good guys and bad all need light to do their thing. I have zero expectation of being set upon by thugs with NV or ninja assassins - in my home, at least - so the need for extreme stealth is just not there, and anyone moving around in my house at night without light is almost certainly not a threat.

Anyway, back to lumens. As I see it, hitting a potential threat with an overpowering amount of light is the distinct advantage of having more lumens. You are using the light to completely take away their visual horizon... and, yes, that might require a bit of adaptation from behind the light but not even close to the same amount. With enough light, you are buying a lot more time than it costs you. Testing various lights on friends and family can be... enlightening ;-)

Have you experimented with the any of the Intellibeam lights from Surefire? I am personally not a fan of them but they would seem to do what you are after without sacrificing high lumens when they would be truly advantageous.

[Trukinjp13]

It's 15k candela per their website: https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/tlr-1-hl

I have both a x300U and the TLR-1 HL and honestly would have to nitpick to tell the difference. The X300U is more green and the TLR-1 HL is more cool white. The X300 as a more defined edge on the outer ring where the TLR does not. The TLR hot spot is slightly wider, but the intensity seems the same.

Thank you! I assumed the streamlight was similar enough that the lumens were the difference in my comparison. But I honestly do not know a whole lot about the other light measurements.

I usually pay attention to reviews and see how the hotspot is on the light and the throw. That usually gives me a good idea. The tlr1 @300lumens has a pretty good light output. I prefer SF personally now. But that tlr1 has served well for a long time and its always mounted on a backup pistol. Hell when it first came out SF did not have a comparable output light in my recollection.


This is a great thread with varying points of view! Love it

[NH Shooter]

I spent some time last night documenting my observations with a series of photos - it was not nearly as easy as I thought it would be!

Using a Canon DSLR set up on a tripod at the top of the steps, I made a series of photos with the exposure manually adjusted to most closely represent what I was actually seeing. An IPDA target was set up at the bottom of the steps to represent an intruder.

The ambient light level on the first floor is fairly high due to the light above the kitchen sink and the light coming through the glass at the top of the front door (seen behind the target) from the exterior front door lights. With my eyes adjusted to the ambient light, I can clearly see the target though no detail on it. I can just barely make out the brown color of the cardboard.

The Lights Used


Malkoff MD2 (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/malkoff-md2-black-type-iii-ha?variant=21236151619) with M361 drop-in (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/surefire-drop-ins-for-6p-g2-c2-etc-6-9-volts/products/m361-lmh-low-med-high-to-fit-surefire) and high-low bezel switch (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/high-low-bezel-switch-for-md2). Six total output levels: sub 1-lumen, 2 lumens, 8 lumens with bezel switch set to low; 15, 80 and 400 lumens with bezel switch set to high.


Malkoff M61T-MD2 (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/malkoff-mid-sized-led-flashlights/products/m61t-md2?variant=21233439299) (375 lumens/12,000 lux)

Malkoff Bodyguard (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/malkoff-small-led-flashlights/products/mdc-bodyguard) (600 lumens/7,700 lux)

Malkoff Hound Dog 18650 Neutral (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/malkoff-neutral-turnkey-hound-dog-18650) (900 lumens/29,000 lux)

Malkoff Wildcat v.6 Neutral (https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/malkoff-wildcat?variant=29865398915) (1,000 lumens/5,200 lux)



Things to Observe


How much light is hitting the stairwell walls. Less is better, more creates more back splash and less light hitting the target.
How much light is actually hitting the carboard target. The brighter, more washed-out it looks, the more light hitting it.
Contrast on the target, the ability to discern the scoring rings. Our vision discerns detail based on contrast, not actual level of illumination!


Also note that with the exception of the Wildcat, all beam patterns have a "hot spot" in the center of the beam where the light is more intense. The intensity of the hot spot varies considerably, the best way to determine that intensity is to look at the ratio of lumens to lux - the greater the lux to the amount of lumens, the brighter the hot spot (greater focus of the light).

Again, bear in mind that the photos below are adjusted to best represent how I perceived the scene, the intensity of light and my ability to discern the target. I feel they are quite representative.

Photo 1

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-1.jpg

This is the MD2-M361 set to 8 lumens. Contrast of the target is good and there is a minimum of spill on the walls coming back at me. When I turn off the light, there is no momentary darkness due to my eyesight adjusting back to the ambient level of light. As I've stated previously, I find this quite adequate for the purpose of PIDing an intruder standing at the bottom of the step.

Photo 2

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-2.jpg

This is the MD2-M361 set to 15 lumens. Contrast on the target is good though there is more spill on the walls. Overall I feel there was a slight gain at 15 lumens, though it was at the upper threshold of ideal contrast. When the light was turned off, there was a very slight and momentary darkening of my vision adjusting back to ambient, but it was extremely minimal.

Photo 3

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-3.jpg

This is the MD2-M361 cranked up all the way to 400 lumens. Compared to the lower settings, there is considerably less contrast on the target and much more back splash from light hitting the walls. At this level of lumens, I found I need around 3 seconds for my vision to readjust to ambient light levels. For the sole purpose of target identification, I found this level way too high.

But for the purpose of overwhelming the intruder with blinding light, more is obviously better. But there is a hit in this scenario with 400+ lumens in terms of seeing detail (contrast), light coming back to my own eyes and recovery period when the light is turned off.

Photo 4

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-4.jpg

This is the MD2-M61T (T = "throw") that uses a TIR lens to focus the light. Though slightly less lumens than the previous photo, you can clearly see (1) more light on the target (greater blinding effect) and (2) much less spill on the walls (less back splash), but at the expense of contrast on the target (the scoring rings are just barely visible). Also note that you can see the square shape of the LED through the TIR lens, resulting in a less uniform beam pattern compared to a reflector based design.

Overall I judged this light preferable to the MD2-M361 set on high under these conditions.

Photo 5

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-5.jpg

This is the Bodyguard. The higher lumens are clearly evident, as is the lower lux (more "floody" beam pattern) compared to the MD2-M61T. The contrast on target is actually decent but the back splash is ferocious.

Photo 6

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-6.jpg

Hound Dog 18650 set on low (30 lumens, lux unknown). Contrast on target is excellent, lack of back splash is superb. The highly focused reflector design is obvious, and even at 30 lumens I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this light. Time for my eyes to readjust back to ambient was about a second, about the same as the MD2-M361 set to 15 lumens.

Photo 7

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-7.jpg

Nuke 'em - Hound Dog set to high (29,000 lux). Zero contrast on target, but back splash not overwhelming like the Bodyguard. If a flashlight was the only weapon I had, this would be it.

Note - I had to dial back the exposure on this photo a bit more as the target was completely washed out. Therefore the scene appeared a bit brighter to me than the photo depicts.

Photo 8

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/lumens-8.jpg

This is the Wildcat on high (1,000 lumens/5,200 lux). The low lux to lumens ratio is very evident. Contrast on target is good to excellent, as is the coloring rendering of its 90+ CRI rating. The right tool for this specific task? Probably not...


Conclusions

These are mine for this "staircase scenario";


With dark adapted vision in dark settings, not a lot of lumens are needed in a stairwell setting. I feel confident I could easily PID a human in Photo 1.
High lumen levels can reduce contrast, hindering our ability to see detail. Our ability to discern detail based on contrast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_(vision)) is well documented by eye sight professionals.
A more focused beam is definitely preferable in this scenario, especially at higher lumen levels.
The lower the amount of light (lumens) used for PID purposes, the less time it takes to readjust to ambient light when the light is turned off.
Back splash is a bitch.
The hound Dog 18650 kicks ass

I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread. I hope this post reasonably illustrates my own observations.

[Gio]

High lumen levels can reduce contrast, hindering our ability to see detail. Our ability to discern detail based on contrast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_(vision)) is well documented by eye sight professionals.


You should try this on an actual person wearing clothes and holding a weapon. I think losing contrast on a monotone cardboard target is not something that will happen with a live body. Try a worst case scenario for visibility: dark skin tone or gloves wearing a black shirt holding a black gun or black knife in front of their shirt.

[NH Shooter]

You should try this on an actual person wearing clothes and holding a weapon. I think losing contrast on a monotone cardboard target is not something that will happen with a live body. Try a worst case scenario for visibility: dark skin tone or gloves wearing a black shirt holding a black gun or black knife in front of their shirt.

As long as the target (cardboard, real person, etc.) remains consistent, the differences illustrated in the photos above remain relevant.

Additionally from this article - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5384124/


Increasing age, small pupil diameter, hyperopia, and photopic conditions were associated with lower contrast sensitivity in healthy individuals. Binocular contrast sensitivity measurements were better than monocular contrast sensitivity measurements in all conditions and spatial frequencies.

Higher levels of illumination result in pupil dilation, which results in less perceived contrast (less detail). This is consistent with the body of knowledge on human vision and the observed effects in the photos, regardless of the target.

[Dagga Boy]

I find it kind of funny in these discussions how sure folks are of what their use of force scenario is going to look like. One thing I have found through my years of dealing with this stuff, both personally and investigating others is that none of these things ever seem to be what people think they will be. Looking at the shots from above, photo 6 is what I want. I want to shoot in daylight and assess in daylight as optimal. At night, the goal is to get as close to optimal as possible.
Does everyone need to run out and buy a thousand lumen professional grade light for home defense? No. It comes down to economics and reality of use than performance. I used to regularly recommend lights I would never use to folks because I would rather they had a $100 light than no light based on their actual need. With that said, if money is not a huge issue, I want all the performance I can that gets me close to turning the sun on.

[spinmove_]

I find it kind of funny in these discussions how sure folks are of what their use of force scenario is going to look like. One thing I have found through my years of dealing with this stuff, both personally and investigating others is that none of these things ever seem to be what people think they will be. Looking at the shots from above, photo 6 is what I want. I want to shoot in daylight and assess in daylight as optimal. At night, the goal is to get as close to optimal as possible.
Does everyone need to run out and buy a thousand lumen professional grade light for home defense? No. It comes down to economics and reality of use than performance. I used to regularly recommend lights I would never use to folks because I would rather they had a $100 light than no light based on their actual need. With that said, if money is not a huge issue, I want all the performance I can that gets me close to turning the sun on.

This.

I can’t predict whom I will encounter in any given scenario during any particular time of day. Therefore I want the tools that allow me to deal with any given problem as optimally as possible given the circumstances.

As far as light goes, that means I want the brightest and simplest handheld that I can easily and comfortably carry in my pocket. As of this writing, that tool is a Surefire EDCL2-T. 5 lumens to start if I only need that, 1,200 lumens instantly available by only pressing a little harder on the tailcap. No clicky nonsense to deal with. Switchback addition incoming as soon as I can get it.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[NH Shooter]

Beyond providing enough illumination in a low-light situation to PID a potential threat, anything more is superfluous UNLESS you want to weaponize the light.

Somehow these two concepts/purposes keep getting tangled up here. Neither is wrong but they don't necessarily overlap perfectly either.

[s0nspark]

Beyond providing enough illumination in a low-light situation to PID a potential threat, anything more is superfluous UNLESS you want to weaponize the light.


Well, it is safe to say that the 1000 lumen X300U is NOT geared to those who have no interest in weaponizing the light ;-)

ETA: What I'm saying is that I don't think anyone is really trying to convince you that you should want or need this, despite taking issue with some of your conclusions.

[spinmove_]

Beyond providing enough illumination in a low-light situation to PID a potential threat, anything more is superfluous UNLESS you want to weaponize the light.

Somehow these two concepts/purposes keep getting tangled up here. Neither is wrong but they don't necessarily overlap perfectly either.

I guess that’s part of my point though. You don’t KNOW that it’s a threat UNTIL you POSITIVELY ID them as such. If you ID the unknown as NOT being a threat then use less light or don’t shine the light in their eyes. If you ID the unknown as DEFINITELY being a threat, then it’s a good thing to start off on max lumens or have the ability to instantaneously go to max lumens.

Either way, I personally, for me, want ALL the lumens NOW with the simplest to use tool. If you want a custom configured 6 lumen level “Bop-It” flashlight, then that’s on you to manage that tool how you see fit. If that’s what you want, then drive on. I find such flashlights dubiously reliable to use in a stressful situation and choose to remove superfluous options. I don’t need to switch to a 10 lumen option if I can simply “muzzle down” the light and just use the spill to see what I need to see. I just think that some of the dudes that have actually been there and done that are offering their advice might lend an interesting and realistic perspective on what you’re trying to prepare for.


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[Trukinjp13]

Beyond providing enough illumination in a low-light situation to PID a potential threat, anything more is superfluous UNLESS you want to weaponize the light.

Somehow these two concepts/purposes keep getting tangled up here. Neither is wrong but they don't necessarily overlap perfectly either.

I may be misunderstanding this. But, I want my light to be a part of my pistol. Its job is to incapacitate the threat and id. I want to delay or slow my target when I hit them with light. If I hear a bump in the night and they come through my door I an going to light them up and if need be put them down. I want to overwhelm them with light. I want to impede their progress. I am not using my wml to do anything but to put down a potential threat. I have a handheld next to the bed for admin purposes if need be. My wml has ONE purpose on my pistol.

Everyone has their own reasons for why or what they want. I happen to want my light to be a weapon in itself. I have learned a lot from people more experienced then me from events they have dealt with around the world. And 99% say they want intense light on their weapons. As DB said the light should represent the sun as much as possible. I had previously assumed 600 was more then enough. Until I learned what it is like on the receiving end!

[MVS]

I ordered one today. Guess I should look at holsters.

[NH Shooter]

So I'm off to the Sig Academy today to take their Low Light Pistol Operator course. I'm looking forward to it! In their course requirements they list a WML as optional and based on AARs of those who have taken the course, hand held lights are the focus of the instruction. I'll be taking the Malkoff Bodyguard (600 lumens/7,700 lux), which is my primary EDC light, and the M61T head on a MD3 body (450 lumens/12,000+ lux).

FWIW, I am not in any way disputing what is being posted in response to my observations. I think I am to blame for failing to better explain the reasons for my interest in this instead of just focusing on my observations.

In regards to the X300 (which is what this thread is supposed to be about), I had the older X300-A (300 lumen) version and it was an excellent light. The beam was very focused almost to a fault in having little effective spill, but it sure did hit the target with plenty of lux. I truly regret selling it as it would be perfect for what I am currently looking for: a high quality light with the A-style QD interface that I can slide on the PPQ when comes out of the holster at bed time.

I'll circle back around tonight or tomorrow after I have a chance to absorb today's training. I hope no one took offense at my lame attempts to discuss this subject matter as it was most certainly not my intention to argumentative or seem disrespectful of those with far more experience.

[Hambo]

This is sort of one of those things where I just need to say “good luck, hope it works for you”. I must say that basing a home defense strategy on late night peeing is an interesting approach. I feel gifted...I don’t even need the light for that or to find the fridge. For dealing with potential human predators or a non hostile person in my home, I ll go with as much light as I can get.

Right. What NH does not understand is that being half asleep on the way to the head is an order of magnitude different from waking up thinking/knowing that someone is in your house to do you harm. One you do on autopilot and in the other your body and brain go from sleep to full speed right the fuck now.

[spinmove_]

So I'm off to the Sig Academy today to take their Low Light Pistol Operator course. I'm looking forward to it! In their course requirements they list a WML as optional and based on AARs of those who have taken the course, hand held lights are the focus of the instruction. I'll be taking the Malkoff Bodyguard (600 lumens/7,700 lux), which is my primary EDC light, and the M61T head on a MD3 body (450 lumens/12,000+ lux).

FWIW, I am not in any way disputing what is being posted in response to my observations. I think I am to blame for failing to better explain the reasons for my interest in this instead of just focusing on my observations.

In regards to the X300 (which is what this thread is supposed to be about), I had the older X300-A (300 lumen) version and it was an excellent light. The beam was very focused almost to a fault in having little effective spill, but it sure did hit the target with plenty of lux. I truly regret selling it as it would be perfect for what I am currently looking for: a high quality light with the A-style QD interface that I can slide on the PPQ when comes out of the holster at bed time.

I'll circle back around tonight or tomorrow after I have a chance to absorb today's training. I hope no one took offense at my lame attempts to discuss this subject matter as it was most certainly not my intention to argumentative or seem disrespectful of those with far more experience.

I hope that it is an illuminating experience.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[NH Shooter]

I hope that it is an illuminating experience.

Well holy crap, it certainly was....

I'm pretty beat right now and I need to write up a good AAR, but it's safe to say my POV has shifted...

...a lot. I get it.

The Malkoff Bodyguard (600 lumens/7,700 lux) was outstanding out to about 15 yards, providing a wide swath of light that was not alignment critical. Beyond that the lower lux required a little more time to get good sight alignment due to less light on the target.

The M61T on the MD3 body (450 lumens, 12,000+ lux) was fine out to 25 yards, the maximum distance we shot. My time was pretty evenly split between the two lights but once we moved beyond 15 yards I used this light exclusively. I wouldn't have minded more and regret not bringing the 900 lumen/29,000 lux Hound Dog.

Both lights functioned perfectly, but there were a few people there with programmable lights who struggled to keep them out of strobe or low output mode. The simple UI of my two Malkoffs had no such issues.

The PPQ was flawless and the JMCK IWB #3 and mag pouches worked nicely.

Out of the 10 students, I dropped the fewest number of shots out of the faint 10-inch ring on the targets (about 8 out of 250 shots before we went to steel). The one below was shot from 5 to 10 yards using various flashlight holds (about 70 or 80 rounds on this target), the 100 grain frangible ammo shot low and left compared to the 147 I normally shoot;

28972


The instructors complimented me on the target. :-)

I'll post a full AAR tomorrow.

[NH Shooter]

Another target, this one shot almost exclusively with the Harries technique. Yup, jerked that one way off to the left into Mr. Bad Guy's elbow;


28977


A few more observations;


I had spent two months of dry firing strong hand only which helped tremendously. I had also worked on mag changes and re-holstering with my eyes closed to simulate darkness, which paid huge dividends as well. No fumbles doing either.

We spent plenty of time randomly loading dummy rounds in our mags to practice TRB drills. I defaulted to grabbing the slide to the rear of the ejection port to rack the slide and had no issues.

We practiced failure to eject failures with dummy rounds and learned some very useful technique for that.

All of the above in total darkness with our flashlights off.



But here was the exercise that really reset my thinking;

First pass was starting with the targets very dimly illuminated 5 yards away. The instructor shined a pretty powerful light directly into our eyes (not sure how many lumens) and once he shut off the light, we were instructed to take three steps to the right and engage the target 5 yards away with no flashlight. We were instructed to wait until we could make out the target well enough to engage it and for most of us, it was at least five seconds before we could do so. With a tritium front sight, I ended up with two perfect hits in the wrong target. Second pass was the same except we were allowed to use our lights. Even though I felt once again totally blind, illuminating the target with the 600-lumen Bodyguard allowed me to immediately engage two shots (and hit the correct target). The more powerful light allowed me to see even though I had just been "blinded" myself with a light in the eyes.

Going forward there will two flashlights on my night stand: one with very low levels for adjusting the thermostat, taking a piss and other non-critical needs. The second one will be the M61T-MD3 combo I used today for more pressing middle-of-the-night problems (the Bodyguard stays clipped in my pants pocket in case I have to get them on in a hurry - don't ever want to be without a light!).

I no longer have any worries about using too much light.

[Dagga Boy]

And the world is right again....;-).

[einherjarvalk]

I'm not quite ready to add a 1K lumen to my line up, but I figure more than a few of you are and Ike at Big Tex Outdoors has his shipment in now. Currently $234.64 shipped with code 15R.

https://bigtexoutdoors.com/products/new-surefire-x300u-b-1-000-lumens-led-weapons-mounted-light-x300-ultra?variant=10704272293932

[03RN]

And the world is right again....;-).

And knowing is half the battle.

[NH Shooter]

More on the lighting equipment....

The Bodyguard with its wider hot spot (lower lux-to-lumen ratio) was superb at closer distances (30 feet and in): it put plenty of light on the target with a wide enough hot-spot that alignment of the light to the bore axis was not critical. This less critical alignment was really helpful in getting the shot off quickly. Considering its small, pocket-friendly size, I am really pleased with the Bodyguard as an EDC light intended for defensive applications.

The considerably larger and less pocket-friendly M61T-MD3 combo with it's higher lux-to-lumens ratio (estimated 14,400 lux to 450 lumens) reached out considerably further, but required more careful alignment . On command to fire at longer distances, I often found myself tweaking the alignment of the light to keep its more narrow beam on the target. That wasn't too difficult to do, but was certainly noticeable compared to the Bodyguard. Of course maintaining this alignment is only a consideration for a hand held light, not a WML.

The DIY finger lanyards worked like a charm! They made flashlight retention when changing mags or clearing (induced) malfunctions a seamless operation: I let go of the light to free up all fingers to perform the two-handed task, then simply closed my hand to re-grasp the light when ready to fire again. Quick and easy!

I had several occasions when the light clicked-on during fire, mostly using the Rogers technique. I did not have as good of a feel for the switch with this technique and suspect I was squeezing too hard. For the Bodyguard, which is truly an application-specific light, I am contemplating modifying the switch to be momentary only.

We covered five techniques: the Harries, Rogers, Modified FBI, neck and temple holds. I shot the best with the Harries and Rogers, but still prefer the Harries between the two of them. I shot the worst with the modified FBI (I felt like a tree with my arms fully extended in different directions), but not but a large margin. Overall I feel most comfortable defaulting to the Harries and shifting to a temple or neck hold if the situation warrants it. I found the Rogers allowed the steadiest hold of the pistol, but is the slowest for me to get in to. I can see using it at longer distances when there is time to lock it in and maximum accuracy is required. The FBI hold is one I think worth keeping in the tool box as there is certainly advantage to keeping the light source as far away as possible. Using a tree or utility pole as cover with the light on one side and the weapon presented on the other comes to mind, using the pole/tree to steady both hands.

The Sig Academy is an impressive facility and being only a 35-minute drive from where I live, easy to get to. The instructors and staff are knowledgeable and they offer a wide variety of courses. As expected it's not cheap, this training costing about $400.00 between the course fee and required ammo. One attendee was a doctor who lives in Miami, so he also had flight and lodging expenses. The rest of the attendees at this class were from the New England area and drove in for the day.

Overall, it was fun and very informative. If I had unlimited funds I'd take every class they offer!

[NH Shooter]

I'm not quite ready to add a 1K lumen to my line up, but I figure more than a few of you are and Ike at Big Tex Outdoors has his shipment in now. Currently $234.64 shipped with code 15R.

https://bigtexoutdoors.com/products/new-surefire-x300u-b-1-000-lumens-led-weapons-mounted-light-x300-ultra?variant=10704272293932

And FWIW, the new 1,000-lumen version is 11,300 candela and the previous 600-lumen version is rated at 16,500 candela. The new one will light up a wider area but not reach as far.

[Cory]

And FWIW, the new 1,000-lumen version is 11,300 candela and the previous 600-lumen version is rated at 16,500 candela. The new one will light up a wider area but not reach as far.

That seems odd to me. Aaron Cowan did a video review of the new 1000 Lumen, and stated he has been using it for about 6 months. In the review he said he was happy to be moving back to surefire lights because this one produced a workable hotspot...

Previously I know he was using the TLRHL because he thought that the higher candela on the that light helped it to have a more workable hotspot at distance. So I guess I'm surprised that the 1000 Lumen x300 has less candela than the previous version. I'm not huge on lights (zero training) but it was my understanding that candela = hotspot focus that will reach out. Am I wrong there?

By the way, if you're shopping around using Ballistic Radio's discount code (azizlight) will net you a good price straight from surefire.

-Cory

[Trukinjp13]

Well. My take on this is that candella may be less but the lumens is more. Somewhere along the lines that has to help one another out.

I had thought the head was supposed to be the same tir reflector as the 600 lumen model though.

[NH Shooter]

Well. My take on this is that candella may be less but the lumens is more. Somewhere along the lines that has to help one another out.



Lumens is a measure of total light output in all directions. Candela is a measure of maximum brightness in the focused hot spot of the beam. The wider but slightly less intense hot spot of the new X300 is IMO preferable for a pistol. Rifle shooters might be disappointed because they typically want the more focused, higher candela beam to reach out further.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbGKr0EZDU

[Trukinjp13]

Lumens is a measure of total light output in all directions. Candela is a measure of maximum brightness in the focused hot spot of the beam. The wider but slightly less intense hot spot of the new X300 is IMO preferable for a pistol. Rifle shooters might be disappointed because they typically want the more focused, higher candela beam to reach out further.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbGKr0EZDU

Okay, but I still feel that having more total light output has to help bridge the gap of the candella. I may be wrong and that is fine. But from the pics and videos I have seen the 1000 lumen looks better than the 600 and does not seem to lose anything. I need to see one in person though obviously.

[NH Shooter]

That seems odd to me. Aaron Cowan did a video review of the new 1000 Lumen, and stated he has been using it for about 6 months. In the review he said he was happy to be moving back to surefire lights because this one produced a workable hotspot...



That makes sense. The X300 (300 lumen version) I had produced a very narrow but bright hot spot with little spill. I think the new 1000-lumen version with its wider beam will indeed be better for pistol applications.

[Gio]

Okay, but I still feel that having more total light output has to help bridge the gap of the candella. I may be wrong and that is fine. But from the pics and videos I have seen the 1000 lumen looks better than the 600 and does not seem to lose anything. I need to see one in person though obviously.

It’s hard to tell from a video how intense the hot spot is unless you shine it at a much farther distance. If you stand on the receiving end of these lights, it’s easy to tell which has the higher candela because of the intensity and how uncomfortable it is to stare directly at. This new x300u seems to have a unique head design (not the same as scout lights like previous models) that has a hot spot, unlike the max vision xh35, but still has a lot more spill than previous versions.

[s0nspark]

This new x300u seems to have a unique head design (not the same as scout lights like previous models) that has a hot spot, unlike the max vision xh35, but still has a lot more spill than previous versions.

I was really impressed with the spill of the XH35 but found the lack of a hot spot less than ideal for my use. I also wasn't big on the form factor...

I am really glad to see these changes with the X300U. It looks like the best of all worlds for me.

[NH Shooter]

Good read here - https://www.surefire.com/how_to_choose_weaponlights

There are several factors that effect the width of the hot spot in the center of the beam. One of them is the size of the LED. All other factors equal, place a larger LED in the same reflector and the size of the hot spot will increase. A larger reflector would be required to maintain the same beam configuration as a smaller LED.

Larger LEDs are used for higher current capacity and lumens. Could very well be that SF is using a different (larger) LED in the new X300 for the increased lumen output, which would fully explain the lower candela but wider hot spot beam pattern. But since SF does not specify which LED is used in their product, that is speculation on my part and the only way to know for sure is to put the new version next to the old one and observe the size of the emitter.

For light weaponization purposes, there is no dispute that the more narrow, higher candela/lux beam has the greatest blinding potential, so in that regard the 600-lumen version still has the edge. However for general illumination purposes, distributing the lumens in a more even pattern while maintaining a discernable (if less intense) hot spot is generally the best compromise.

[Dagga Boy]

No science, but I really like the new light testing it around the house and for illuminating inside to outside and the yard. Combined with a Fury handheld, it is an impressive combo that I would have lived to have had as a working LEO. I have built a grab kit for bedside based on a Sneaky Bag. The LTT Elite with the 300U and the Fury handle the illumination needs.

[NH Shooter]

No science, but I really like the new light testing it around the house and for illuminating inside to outside and the yard. Combined with a Fury handheld, it is an impressive combo that I would have lived to have had as a working LEO. I have built a grab kit for bedside based on a Sneaky Bag. The LTT Elite with the 300U and the Fury handle the illumination needs.

Without elaborating on a public forum, my PPQ is placed within view and quick reach at night, but now I keep my Hound Dog 18650 (900 lumens/29,000 lux) with it for easy grab-'n-go. Since taking the low light course I certainly have greater faith in my abilities with a hand held but I still see the value of having a WML as well. I currently have a second-gen Inforce APL which isn't bad but it's a PITA to take on/off every day (requires a screw driver) and since I don't EDC with a WML, it's pretty much unused.

I'm still kicking myself for selling the old X300-A (300 lumen version) I once had, the QD A-mount was perfect for easy on/off. I may need to just buy a new one.

[That Guy]

If you don't need holster compatibility, and the light doesn't do anything heavy duty, one cheaper option might be an Olight Valkyrie PL-2. I know, not a premium brand, but Aaron Cowley did a review where he was quite positively impressed with the light. And the one on my girlfriends rifle has kept on working for the last nine months it's been there, though admittedly her round count with said rifle has been low. Still, that light should be good enough for just sitting on a nightstand and being taken off each morning. I'm not sure I buy their claim of 1200 lumens, but the light really is really bloody bright.

Of course, if the price of the Surefire doesn't present a problem, ignore my ramblings and just get that.

[Grey]

Needs to come in fde...

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[El Cid]

Needs to come in fde...

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It does.

https://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/handgun/x300u-a-weaponlight-rail-lock.html

[NH Shooter]

If you don't need holster compatibility, and the light doesn't do anything heavy duty, one cheaper option might be an Olight Valkyrie PL-2.

I had strongly considered that but can't bring myself to buy Chinese when something equivalent (or in this case, clearly better) is available from a U.S. manufacturer. I'm sure the Olight would serve my needs well but in today's political/trade climate, I've really turned into a grumpy old American.

[Trukinjp13]

There is no replacement for a wml as far as I am concerned. I can use a handheld just fine. But having that wml and being able to have a free hand is irreplaceable. I have a handheld on my nightstand. They go together quite well. But serve different purposes.


As far as bedside holster. Raven vanguard or the xfer work quite well. More like a trigger guard but has the ability to go iwb.

[Dagga Boy]

Without elaborating on a public forum, my PPQ is placed within view and quick reach at night, but now I keep my Hound Dog 18650 (900 lumens/29,000 lux) with it for easy grab-'n-go. Since taking the low light course I certainly have greater faith in my abilities with a hand held but I still see the value of having a WML as well. I currently have a second-gen Inforce APL which isn't bad but it's a PITA to take on/off every day (requires a screw driver) and since I don't EDC with a WML, it's pretty much unused.

I'm still kicking myself for selling the old X300-A (300 lumen version) I once had, the QD A-mount was perfect for easy on/off. I may need to just buy a new one.

Trust me, I have zero issue with a high power handheld and a pistol. Worked for me my entire LE patrol career. The handheld is more important to me than the WML.

[Grey]

It does.

https://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/handgun/x300u-a-weaponlight-rail-lock.htmlA vs B? I thought B was the way to go.

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[MistWolf]

The difference between the A and B is how they lock to your rail. The A has tabs you lift to unlock from your pistol. The B uses a screw. Surefire recommends the A for polymer frames to eliminate distorting the dust cover. The B is for steel frames and rails.

[EVP]

Never mind...

Mistwolf beat me to it!

[El Cid]

A vs B? I thought B was the way to go.

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I prefer the A on any weapon. Seen screws back out unless some sort of thread locker is used. If it has a laser then the screw is needed. Plastic frame, metal frame, picatinny rail - I’ve used the A version on all without issue.

[GJM]

Darn, I ordered a B from Big Tex. So the B would be better on a rifle, and the A on a Glock?

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Darn, I ordered a B from Big Tex. So the B would be better on a rifle, and the A on a Glock?

That has worked for me. However the B works just as fine on a handgun as well. Just check tension on the screw periodically. You would probably snap the cross bolt before you torqued the frame.

[s0nspark]

I've had fit issues with some metal frame guns with the A. The B seems more secure of the two to me. I typically don't put them on and take them off much though, which the A seems better for.

[Dagga Boy]

Darn, I ordered a B from Big Tex. So the B would be better on a rifle, and the A on a Glock?

I be had issues getting the A off and on some frames. The B is working great on my LTT Elite.

[Gio]

I be had issues getting the A off and on some frames. The B is working great on my LTT Elite.

You may have tried this, but if you loosen the 6 set screws on top of the A it will make it easier to slide off and on. I adjust it a half turn at a time and test until I can more easily slide it on and off the rail. Usually it only takes a half or 3/4 turn backed off from fully seated to make it much easier to remove.

[Grey]

Well you bastards sold me a tan A.

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[CDFIII]

Well you bastards sold me a tan A.

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Grey is tan available yet?

[Grey]

Grey is tan available yet?I ordered one off surefires website... I probably incorrectly assumed it was ready to ship if I could order it.

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[nate89]

You may have tried this, but if you loosen the 6 set screws on top of the A it will make it easier to slide off and on. I adjust it a half turn at a time and test until I can more easily slide it on and off the rail. Usually it only takes a half or 3/4 turn backed off from fully seated to make it much easier to remove.

I usually have issues getting the A models off my sigs, but that is more the fault of sig using their wonky convex shaped rails on everything but the MK25. I have also gone to loosening the 6 set screws to make it easier. I've honestly thought about buying a MK25 simply to use the frame with a real pic rail on the bottom.

[NH Shooter]

I found on the X300 I had, I could loosen the rail screws and then either squeeze them together or spread them apart with my fingers and while holding the rails, retighten the screws and it seemed to hold the adjustment.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Trust me, I have zero issue with a high power handheld and a pistol. Worked for me my entire LE patrol career. The handheld is more important to me than the WML.

On the subject of handhelds, I recently purchased a Klarus XT11X: http://www.klaruslight.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=128&id=180. It's way too new for a full evaluation. I can tell you that 3200 lumens in your pocket is very nice when you live smack dab in the middle of nowhere. From the Big Empty, ELN.

[MistWolf]

Just got my new x300u B today. I have not been able to compare it to the 600 lumen version, but the 1000 lumen Surefire is much brighter than the 300 lumen original. The hotspot alone is larger than the entire spillover of the original.

My 300 lumen x300 runs cool. It never gets very warm. The new x300u gets quite warm in less than five minutes. The case didn't get warm enough to burn, but I didn't fondle the lens. I think the new x300u should be run only for short periods.

Later, when it's dark, I'll take it outside and see how it does. I suspect it will brightly light up almost my entire back yard.

[Grey]

Pretty sure the fde x300s are not in stock, have not received a shipping update from Surefire yet...

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[CDFIII]

Pretty sure the fde x300s are not in stock, have not received a shipping update from Surefire yet...

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I saw one site ( can't remember which one maybe BigTex Outdoors) said FDE delivery date is Sept. 15th.

[Grey]

I saw one site ( can't remember which one maybe BigTex Outdoors) said FDE delivery date is Sept. 15th.The*X300U-A-TN you have ordered is currently out of stock. We are unable to offer a firm date of availability; however the lead-time for this item is 2-3 weeks. We apologize for any inconvenience this delay may cause.

From SF. Wonder if they will refund my shipping per their back order policy...

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[Jeff S.]

You guys have me going back-and-forth between the A and B mount (for a P320c).

I was about to email Safariland, but does anybody know if their light compatible duty holsters are made for the A or B version, or for both? Thanks

[Trukinjp13]

I have so far mounted my x300ua on. I did take out the plate for flush mount with trigger guard. But it has worked on all of these.

G19.5
G17.5
P10c
P07
P30
Vp9
P320c
1911
M&p 2.0c (buddies)
Ar-15

[Grey]

Got my fde x300u a in, anyone else have fingers too short to comfortably activate the light?

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[NH Shooter]

Got my fde x300u a in, anyone else have fingers too short to comfortably activate the light?

I found it required a substantial shift of my support hand to activate the X300 switch. Of course, I have small hands with stubby fingers which doesn't help.

I've become totally comfortable using a handheld, the Malkoff/Surefire Lego below is 1,000 lumens, 12,000+ lux/candela. It works perfectly with every pistol I own.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/edc-6.jpg

[Grey]

I found it required a substantial shift of my support hand to activate the X300 switch. Of course, I have small hands with stubby fingers which doesn't help.

I've become totally comfortable using a handheld, the Malkoff/Surefire Lego below is 1,000 lumens, 12,000+ lux/candela. It works perfectly with every pistol I own.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/edc-6.jpgI can activate it with my support hand thumb. Probably a training issue.

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[HopetonBrown]

Got my fde x300u a in, anyone else have fingers too short to comfortably activate the light?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using TapatalkWhat gun?

[Grey]

What gun?19x

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[Trukinjp13]

19x

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I can easily activate momentary but not constant on. I use my support hand thumb though anyways from using a tlr7 for my edc.

[Grey]

I can easily activate momentary but not constant on. I use my support hand thumb though anyways from using a tlr7 for my edc.Thats interesting. The constant on is actually easier for me to reliably activate. Going to need to fiddle a lot more with this and hopefully take a class. Definitely cant activate it with my trigger finger, not sure if i am supposed to do that anyway.

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[NH Shooter]

Definitely cant activate it with my trigger finger, not sure if i am supposed to do that anyway.

No. The idea is to be able to control the light independently of the pistol.

[HopetonBrown]

Definitely cant activate it with my trigger finger, not sure if i am supposed to do that anyway.


Some people feel the trigger finger should just be for pressing the trigger, not a holster retention lever, magazine release or WML switch. It increases the chance of the trigger finger slipping into the trigger guard and causing an ND.

[NH Shooter]

Easy to pack, yet wholly effective for my civilian SD purposes.

Note - added the Lumens Factory clip (https://www.lumensfactory.com/en/product_detail.php?pid=412) to the Malkoff/Surefire Lego light for bezel-down carry.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/edc-7.jpg

[Clark Jackson]

FWIW, I have carried Surefire since 2004 in various capacities.

In 2010, I began carrying Streamlight products (TLR1 and later TLR1-HL) due to some restrictions and limitations that aren't germane to the discussion, but it made me a believer in Streamlight's legitimacy in the weapon mounted light (WML) realm.

I put thousands of rounds (.40, 9mm, and 5.56) through weapons with both Surefire and Streamlights. This included SA and FA weapon systems utilizing factory ammunition. I had no shooting related issues with the lights. I had one (1) TLR-1 HL lens crack/break. The light still worked and Streamlight had it repaired (free) within ten (10) business days.

However, when I had the opportunity I went all Surefire, all the time. This thread has already addressed many of the reasons why I went all SF so I won't go into great detail, but they include consistency with switches, consistent light output, single light output without "programing," light pattern, etc.

When asked, I will still recommend two (2) light "options" for those who intend to use it beyond sofa coin searches.

Option A: Surefire
Option B: Streamlight

If I have my choice, I will go Surefire everyday. Their quality and innovation is peerless. Streamlight is a legitimate "Option B," if you absolutely cannot get a Surefire for whatever reason or excuse. Yes, there is a difference between a reason and an excuse. I just recently upgraded my two (2) handheld lights, a rifle light, and two (2) pistol lights to higher lumen/new model SF lights, and I could not be more pleased with the product.

In the world of serious illumination tools, I do not believe there is a reasonable "Option C" - at this time.

Buy once, cry once. Surefire is worth every penny.

[Gio]

FWIW, I have carried Surefire since 2004 in various capacities.

In 2010, I began carrying Streamlight products (TLR1 and later TLR1-HL) due to some restrictions and limitations that aren't germane to the discussion, but it made me a believer in Streamlight's legitimacy in the weapon mounted light (WML) realm.

I put thousands of rounds (.40, 9mm, and 5.56) through weapons with both Surefire and Streamlights. This included SA and FA weapon systems utilizing factory ammunition. I had no shooting related issues with the lights. I had one (1) TLR-1 HL lens crack/break. The light still worked and Streamlight had it repaired (free) within ten (10) business days.

However, when I had the opportunity I went all Surefire, all the time. This thread has already addressed many of the reasons why I went all SF so I won't go into great detail, but they include consistency with switches, consistent light output, single light output without "programing," light pattern, etc.

When asked, I will still recommend two (2) light "options" for those who intend to use it beyond sofa coin searches.

Option A: Surefire
Option B: Streamlight

If I have my choice, I will go Surefire everyday. Their quality and innovation is peerless. Streamlight is a legitimate "Option B," if you absolutely cannot get a Surefire for whatever reason or excuse. Yes, there is a difference between a reason and an excuse. I just recently upgraded my two (2) handheld lights, a rifle light, and two (2) pistol lights to higher lumen/new model SF lights, and I could not be more pleased with the product.

In the world of serious illumination tools, I do not believe there is a reasonable "Option C" - at this time.

Buy once, cry once. Surefire is worth every penny.

I agree there are only two options, but I don't believe it's cut and dry that Surefire is better than Streamlight for pistol lights. I've seen about an equal number of both X300U's and TLR-1's/2's go down, although admittedly that's only been a handful of each. I wouldn't give either an advantage for reliability though, they are both top notch.

I am a huge fan of the Streamlight TLR-1 switching for advanced right handed shooters. The toggle switches are easier to reach then the X300U because they are extended further back. With my normal two-handed firing grip, I can shoot and hold the light on in momentary without second thought. As soon as I release my offhand grip to move, reload, etc, the light is off.

With less experienced shooters, I do think the X300U controls work better. It can be switched on and left on, which is generally the best practice for people who aren't going to put in some serious reps building the muscle memory to take advantage of a momentary on like the Streamlight.

[John Hearne]

I've always found the switch too hard to reach. I've been a DG switch user since they were released.

[Grey]

I've always found the switch too hard to reach. I've been a DG switch user since they were released.

Thanks for cluing me in to this option, may be looking to pick one up.

[Clark Jackson]

I've always found the switch too hard to reach. I've been a DG switch user since they were released.

31183

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I finally got my 1,000 lumen X300U in and started working with it. Love the overall intensity of the beam, but it is still a very wide spill and I don't see a super defined hotspot compared to my 600 lumen versions. I was using it in my back yard and wooded area with no ambient light and a wide open space, so that may be why the hotspot is bleeding out. PID was possible standing from my front driveway and pointing it across an open space to my wood pile which is roughly 600 feet away. Very impressive little package.

I bought the A model with the traditional QD Latch. This is my preferred mount and I have not had issue with it on a handgun application. I went to mount it on my issued Gen 4 21 today and found that there was an unacceptable amount of play. It felt as though it was barely hanging on. I removed it and placed my 600 Lumen X300U-B back on. I did not have any play issues when I tried the 1,000 lumen version on my 19X, G45, G17.3. To be fair, I have had this play issue with every X300 series light that I placed on the G21. So much so that I went and bought the B model light recently. Looks like now I will be shopping for a 1,000 lumen B model soon.

[orionz06]

Doesn't the G21 have the pic rail rather than the Glock width rail?

[spinmove_]

Doesn't the G21 have the pic rail rather than the Glock width rail?

Only a very small run of G21s have true pic rails. The rest have the standard Glock rail.


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[s0nspark]

Doesn't the G21 have the pic rail rather than the Glock width rail?

That is what I was thinking - perhaps changing the insert would tighten things up.

[Gio]

All of the gen5 and M glocks also have a pic rail slot width and not a Glock rail width.

[s0nspark]

All of the gen5 and M glocks also have a pic rail slot width and not a Glock rail width.

This actually led to a somewhat comical scene recently when I was trying to move one of my X300s from a Gen 5 gun to a Gen 4. It took me completely disassembling the crossbar mount to realize what the issue was. I had swapped the insert for use on another pistol and forgot since it worked fine on the Gen 5 gun.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Got my fde x300u a in, anyone else have fingers too short to comfortably activate the light?


Starting with the SF Classic 6v lights (wired tape switch), going through the Nitrolon (early SL switch), X200s (SL switches), and now the various iterations of the X300U I have never been able to reliably activate the body mounted switches; I have always had to use a remote switch because of short fingers - or use my support hand. The same applies to Streamlight's offerings.

[Keith E.]

I keep reading about the lack of hotspot, which I really like on my other 3&400 Series lights. I was on the SL website this weekend and they're now referencing TLR in the description. Has there been more than one, 1000 lumen X300 WML?

Thanks,
Keith

[Gio]

Starting with the SF Classic 6v lights (wired tape switch), going through the Nitrolon (early SL switch), X200s (SL switches), and now the various iterations of the X300U I have never been able to reliably activate the body mounted switches; I have always had to use a remote switch because of short fingers - or use my support hand. The same applies to Streamlight's offerings.

Have you tried a newer streamlight tlr1 HL? They extended the paddle switches so they extend a decent amount further back and are pretty easy to reach.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Have you tried a newer streamlight tlr1 HL? They extended the paddle switches so they extend a decent amount further back and are pretty easy to reach.

Yes. I have always had to use a remote switch because of short fingers - or use my support hand.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Doesn't the G21 have the pic rail rather than the Glock width rail?

Gen 4 21 has the standard Glock rail. Swapped the adapter plate and the light will not engage with the (P) plate. Again, I think this is a gun specific issue because I have had a the same loose fit issue with every generation of X300(A). Will get a (B) model eventually now. Daggum it.

Played around in the dark with the 1,000 and 600 lumen models again last night. I was incorrect when I said the hotspot on the 1,000 lumen model was not as defined. It is just much larger than the 600 Lumen version and way more intense and the spill around the hotspot is also more intense due to the shear output of the light. Very impressed overall. Will continue playing around with it.

[parishioner]

Just received a x300u-A and it has play fore and aft when installed on a gen 5 g17 using the universal plate.

Whats particularly annoying is I have an older x300 with the universal plate that locks up tighter than a nuns you know what on the same gun.

Because of that I attempted to swap all the hardware from the older model to the new, including the plate spring, universal plate and rails thinking the tolerances might be different only to have the same issue.

I tightened all 6 screws sufficiently, still loose. With the picatinny adapter plate installed it literally slides off and on with no resistance.

So I just installed the rail lock plate and if I'm going to have to use a screw to apply the tension then I might as well get the B model so that way its at least easier to get on and off more readily.

Does anyone have any other suggestions before I get rid of this thing?

[Xhado]

Just received a x300u-A and it has play fore and aft when installed on a gen 5 g17 using the universal plate.

Whats particularly annoying is I have an older x300 with the universal plate that locks up tighter than a nuns you know what on the same gun.

Because of that I attempted to swap all the hardware from the older model to the new, including the plate spring, universal plate and rails thinking the tolerances might be different only to have the same issue.

I tightened all 6 screws sufficiently, still loose. With the picatinny adapter plate installed it literally slides off and on with no resistance.

So I just installed the rail lock plate and if I'm going to have to use a screw to apply the tension then I might as well get the B model so that way its at least easier to get on and off more readily.

Does anyone have any other suggestions before I get rid of this thing?

https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/correcting-fitting-issues-on-the-x300u-a/

[parishioner]

https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/correcting-fitting-issues-on-the-x300u-a/

Right, that’s what i did and it works however the light is slightly canted upward and like I said I’d rather just get the B model if I’m going to utilize a screw to apply the tension to make donning and doffing easier.

[orionz06]

The light will always be slightly canted upward on a Glock. As for the play, some aluminum foil can take up the gap, but you could shoot it that way until the next new thing comes out and never have an issue.

[DpdG]

Just received a x300u-A and it has play fore and aft when installed on a gen 5 g17 using the universal plate.

Whats particularly annoying is I have an older x300 with the universal plate that locks up tighter than a nuns you know what on the same gun.

Because of that I attempted to swap all the hardware from the older model to the new, including the plate spring, universal plate and rails thinking the tolerances might be different only to have the same issue.

I tightened all 6 screws sufficiently, still loose. With the picatinny adapter plate installed it literally slides off and on with no resistance.

So I just installed the rail lock plate and if I'm going to have to use a screw to apply the tension then I might as well get the B model so that way its at least easier to get on and off more readily.

Does anyone have any other suggestions before I get rid of this thing?

I may be wrong since my only Gen 5 is a 19x, but I thought all Gen 5 guns went to 1913/pic dimension slots?

[dontshakepandas]

I may be wrong since my only Gen 5 is a 19x, but I thought all Gen 5 guns went to 1913/pic dimension slots?

Yes, this is correct. Gen 5 guns need the P attachment.


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[Fröman]

I was a Surefire WML guy since the 1990s when I first stuck them on my MP5 and M1S90 shotgun and absolutely LOVED everything from the X200 onwards(previous SF pistol lights were "crew served") but when Streamlight came out with their 800 Lumen model I just couldn't justify an extra $100 per pistol to continue running Surefire(500 lumens) until they finally caught up with a 800 Lumen TLR1 HL BUT...

I bought the 1000 lumen X300 and the throw didn't seem any better than the 800 lumen Streamlight and just recently I got the hots for a patriot brown Streamlight TRL-1 HL and imagine my surprise when it showed up and said 1000 Lumens right there on the box.

I made the inevitable side by side comparison between my 1000 lumen lights and the Streamlight clearly has better throw than the Surefire much to my disappointment.

Now I won't say that I actually "hate" the cheap feeling controls on the TLR-1 series but I certainly like the high quality Surefire switch that can be bumped/pushed for a flash of momentary light better than the up/down cheesy feeling rocker lever of the Streamlight.

Why can't Surefire get their candela up there with Streamlight? The newer 1000 lumen Streamlights have 20,000 candela and I can slap one on a carbine and make hits on 200 meter gongs at night with ease while I am straining and squinting to do the same with my 1000 lumen X300 with 5000 less candela.

Something needs to give, either Streamlight needs to move their new improved switches from the TLR7 over to the TLR1 or Surefire needs to get their lens/reflector game up to Streamlight standards(never thought I'd say that).

Is anyone else torn between liking the controls and build quality of the Surefire enough to pay the money but needs/wants the longer throw of the Streamlight offerings?

Very frustrating to say the least but I've got to pick one because muscle memory is king when running WMLs effectively and I still find myself occasionally trying to get a quick splash of light out of my TLR1s by pushing the tip of the switch lever like a Surefire to no avail.

[That Guy]

either Streamlight needs to move their new improved switches from the TLR7 over to the TLR1

Are you aware of the TLR-9? Same switches as the 7, but an extended, two battery model with 1000 lumens. The size of the light is of course different from the TLR-1, but that is available right now from Streamlight.

[Fröman]

Are you aware of the TLR-9? Same switches as the 7, but an extended, two battery model with 1000 lumens. The size of the light is of course different from the TLR-1, but that is available right now from Streamlight.

Yeah, that's what prompted this post actually. I was hot to trot last night looking at a TLR-9 mounted on a G34 and then went to read up on it and the Streamlight sight says it only has 10,000 candela.

I was super disappointed to say the least. The reflector/lens assembly is the same as the TLR7/8 which handicaps everything about the light other than the form factor and barely hangs with my old X300U with 500 lumens as far as throw.

It sure is the right shape and size though, the slimmer profile and better switches(still not as good as SF though) but the range just isn't there.

[GearFondler]

Modlite's upcoming pistol light will probably be your answer for the foreseeable future.

[Navin Johnson]

I seems that a dedicated rifle light and a dedicated pistol light is the answer.

For me I want/need a wider beam on a pistol and more throw on a rifle.

[littlejerry]

I seems that a dedicated rifle light and a dedicated pistol light is the answer.

For me I want/need a wider beam on a pistol and more throw on a rifle.

Agreed. The TLR7/9 is an awesome option for a holstered pistol. But if you need to throw light past 100 yards you're going to need a larger reflector.

The Streamlight HLX is rated for 27,000 candela and 1000 lumens.

[pangloss]

I seems that a dedicated rifle light and a dedicated pistol light is the answer.

For me I want/need a wider beam on a pistol and more throw on a rifle.

Same here. I don't need more candela for my bedside pistol in my suburban neighborhood.

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