Glock trigger manipulation with sights in motion

[GJM]

For the last few months, I have been shooting the CZ P09, and just loved the pistol. When problems with my interface with the P07/09 recently surfaced, I decided to shoot a Glock 34 with a DeltaPoint Pro, while I sorted out my hardware. I have had a multiple decades love hate relationship with Glock pistols. I love so many things about the Glock, but just have never been a fan of the trigger on low prob shots. After my first Glock session about a week ago, I was complaining to Gabe about the trigger while shooting 25 yard groups, and he basically told me to suck it up, dig down and figure out the Glock trigger again. I decided to do that.

For a few years, with many pistol types from striker to LEM to DA/SA, I have been using a modified, compressed press out, where in the very last portion of my presentation, I decel the pistol, and work the trigger during that movement to get a compressed surprise break. Recently, with the P09, on successive shots, I follow Leatham doctrine of "stop, aim, jerk the trigger." That works out great with the relatively short, crisp and light CZ trigger. When I tried to do the same thing with the Glock 34, it didn't work nearly as well at speed because of the length, weight and character of the Glock trigger resulting in a less than perfect, consistent press. Pulling out memories of my Glock past experiences, I have associated my very best Glock shooting with doing, in effect a lateral press out, where I do the Glock trigger manipulation with the sights (or in my case the red dot) in motion, so the movement of the pistol masks the junk in the Glock trigger, and the shot breaks as soon as the dot settles on the target. This also works on successive shots to the same target, except the movement is vertical rather than horizontal.

I have been experimenting with this technique the last few days, and decided to go full in with this today. During my practice session, I had my wife video a high percentage of the drills, to record the effort.

First thing I did, was use this method on the head of a USPSA target at 28 yards. It was more vertical than horizontal. Here is the shooting:


https://youtu.be/FamXQ-Mjy7I

Here is the results:

28611

Next I did draws to shooting three steel at 32-35 yards, where I work the horizontal trigger manipulation, so the shot breaks as I arrive on the target.


https://youtu.be/IGCIMHFG0iE

And, on one target at the same distance, where the manipulation happens vertically.


https://youtu.be/I6CrJ5uLBZE

Then I shot upper A/B shots on USPSA targets at 12-15 yards.


https://youtu.be/MMFFYozF8U8

Here are the results, and what was notable is I felt no stress doing this shooting.


https://youtu.be/z_g0JmJbBcs

Then I did one shot draws to the eight inch steel at 35 yards, and again no stress.


https://youtu.be/UGIE3k0aASI

Finally, a Bill type drill on the eight inch at 35 yards.


https://youtu.be/KoMyA7i_k_E

What this method of working the Glock trigger does for me, is turn the negative of the Glock trigger into a positive, as I am running it just like a short travel DA revolver trigger, which as Jerry Miculek says, he works between the targets. This is also reminiscent of what Patrick Kelley has advocated with a carbine doing off hand pass shooting. Check it out and see how it works for you.

[feudist]

You're a friggin' beast.

Just saying.

[MGW]

Subscribed to see where this goes. I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification. I’ve decided to run a lot of double action only this fall in hopes that it will teach me something about running Glocks. I think I can visualize what you are describing and I think it’ll apply to a revolver too.

[cornstalker]

I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification.

That's pretty much where I am at as well. I feel like there is a lot for me to learn here.

[Mr_White]

Lol I remember saying something more like "you are a great shooter and if you set yourself to working in earnest with the Glock trigger again it's going to be fine."

And I was right, look at that shooting. Nice job!

[GJM]

Subscribed to see where this goes. I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification. I’ve decided to run a lot of double action only this fall in hopes that it will teach me something about running Glocks. I think I can visualize what you are describing and I think it’ll apply to a revolver too.


That's pretty much where I am at as well. I feel like there is a lot for me to learn here.

Let me try to explain the difference. With a short, light trigger like a CZ, for example, I move the gun to the target, stop the gun, confirm alignment, and from a prepped trigger, then break the shot. With the Glock, that can be a problem, because the weight/length/character of the Glock trigger is not conducive to breaking the shot “right now” on low prob shots. The difference is the way I am now doing it, is during the transition horizontally or as the gun comes down vertically in recoil, I am simultaneously aiming and pressing the trigger, so the shot breaks as soon as the dot reaches the target. Think of it as a horizontal press out.

[taadski]

George,

Just confirming you're referring to rolling through the travel of the Glock trigger while the gun is still in motion in recoil between shots on the same target (thus "vertically") and between targets laterally ("horizontally") such that the shot breaks just as the sight arrives/settles?

I've long held that mileage shooting DA pistols aids in shooting the Glocks well. I spent about an hour today shooting a variety of steels and a plate rack with a Kahr P9 (I'm vetting it as a possible BUG) and had some very similar sensations to what you're describing as the pace quickened. Seemed like it required an interesting blend of being particularly aggressive on the trigger while also requiring quite a bit of extra visual patience. Good stuff.

[GJM]

George,

Just confirming you're referring to rolling through the travel of the Glock trigger while the gun is still in motion in recoil between shots on the same target (thus "vertically") and between targets laterally ("horizontally") such that the shot breaks just as the sight arrives/settles?

I've long held that mileage shooting DA pistols aids in shooting the Glocks well. I spent about an hour today shooting a variety of steels and a plate rack with a Kahr P9 (I'm vetting it as a possible BUG) and had some very similar sensations to what you're describing as the pace quickened. Seemed like it required an interesting blend of being particularly aggressive on the trigger while also requiring quite a bit of extra visual patience. Good stuff.

Yes, vertically and horizontally. In the case of the vertical, Garcia dot drills are a perfect example. With a DA/SA gun in SA, I would prep in recoil, but allow the sights to return to the Garcia dot, and try to keep the sights steady before and while initiating the press. Doing it that way with the Glock would involve gripping the crap out of the pistol, prepping super deeply, and being visually patient throughout the press, as the Glock trigger takes more weight and travel than a good SA trigger. With the method proposed here, I am initiating the trigger press as I see the dot coming down in recoil, continuing to refine my aiming throughout the travel of the dot (or sights), and timing the shot so it breaks as soon as the dot touches the target on the way down out of recoil. This eliminates having to hold the dot steady in one place, as I break the shot, which for me, makes this much easier to do. I didn’t mention it before, but this is especially helpful shooting with one hand, as holding the dot steady while breaking the shot is harder without the second hand for support.

[Mr_White]

A few disparate but related thoughts in no particular order:

This is the micro press out concept (I think you mentioned that already) that for me came out of my working with variations of the press out draw years ago, applied to all dimensions of gun movement and deceleration rather than just horizontally at the end of a draw.

This is related to the DA trigger manipulation practice of 'keeping the trigger moving'.

Two of the dry drills I teach in class (Sights, Meet Trigger 1 and 2) address this exact thing with regard to subsequent shots.

[Clobbersaurus]

Interesting thread GJM. I honestly did not give that much thought to the Glock trigger when I switched from my Elite II. I just took it out and shot it. Perhaps, given your results, I should more carefully consider it.

I believe that lots of dry fire with a piece of plastic between the barrel hood and breech face have made me subconsciously prep the Glock trigger and I don’t think that my finger really leaves the trigger during fast shooting. I know it’s constantly moving and I don’t ever consciously prep it.

I’m going to have to take some slow motion video the next time I go out and see exactly what I am doing, because I honestly don’t really know.

Oh and damn your draw is nice. I used to curl my hand under my holster but I kept getting called for it in matches.

[GJM]

I started my session today with one group at 25 yards, using the same technique where I did not try to stabilize the dot before pressing, but rather let the dot float and did my aiming as I pressed the trigger. Probably a shot every two seconds cadence.

28626

[JHC]

I started my session today with one group at 25 yards, using the same technique where I did not try to stabilize the dot before pressing, but rather let the dot float and did my aiming as I pressed the trigger. Probably a shot every two seconds cadence.

28626

Really nice pic to quote.

Re this "horizontal" thing, are we referring to the P.E. Kelly "trick" with a carbine where he brought his sight onto the target laterally from the side and broke the shot as he paused on target vs trying to hold it there and steady it? If I'm remembering that right. That was quite remarkable. If I'm remembering correctly it would be cool to find that thread and cross post it here. I'll go see if I can find it and see if my memory is holding.

[JHC]

Really nice pic to quote.

Re this "horizontal" thing, are we referring to the P.E. Kelly "trick" with a carbine where he brought his sight onto the target laterally from the side and broke the shot as he paused on target vs trying to hold it there and steady it? If I'm remembering that right. That was quite remarkable. If I'm remembering correctly it would be cool to find that thread and cross post it here. I'll go see if I can find it and see if my memory is holding.


Sort of this technique of "approach shooting"?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20909-Help-Offhand-Rifle-Shooting-Info


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=107&v=vj2Vai5Q3fw

[Mr_White]

I think internalizing what sufficient aim looks like in the sights or dot, and the practice of firing the shot with the gun in a degree of motion, is a pretty essential thing in shooting that can apply in lots of places. It can help people defeat anticipation in its various forms. It can help spread challenging trigger work over time and make it easier.

[MGW]

GJM for multiple shots on a static target what do you see as you are rolling the trigger? Is the dot moving down to the target, up to the target, around the target, or something else?

As a follow up question have you tried this with iron sights? If so, do you see the same thing you see with the dot or something different?

[GJM]

GJM for multiple shots on a static target what do you see as you are rolling the trigger? Is the dot moving down to the target, up to the target, around the target, or something else?

As a follow up question have you tried this with iron sights? If so, do you see the same thing you see with the dot or something different?

On one target with multiple shots, I am pressing the trigger as the dot comes down out of recoil. I believe Gabe teaches a similar drill with iron sights.

Mr_White

[spinmove_]

On one target with multiple shots, I am pressing the trigger as the dot comes down out of recoil. I believe Gabe teaches a similar drill with iron sights.

Mr_White

See, this is where I begin to have trouble in balancing speed and accuracy. My OCD brain has a really hard time letting go of pure precision. When I push for speed, I have a hard time reading the sights at speed. Maybe some of that is recoil management (or lack thereof) and maybe some is inexperience.

It sounds like my active conscious focus needs to be on my sights, but I can’t hinge on perfection. It sounds like I need to subconsciously perfect on the trigger, but actively focusing on it causes things to fall apart. How does one achieve the appropriate balance?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[JHC]

See, this is where I begin to have trouble in balancing speed and accuracy. My OCD brain has a really hard time letting go of pure precision. When I push for speed, I have a hard time reading the sights at speed. Maybe some of that is recoil management (or lack thereof) and maybe some is inexperience.

It sounds like my active conscious focus needs to be on my sights, but I can’t hinge on perfection. It sounds like I need to subconsciously perfect on the trigger, but actively focusing on it causes things to fall apart. How does one achieve the appropriate balance?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Learning to let go and trust your trigger press is a big thing when the speed picks up. I was observing this Sunday having some fun with a Hollywood scenario of the hostage rescue shot. D1's from concealment and then from the ready. D1's were in the range of 1.73-2.0 for hits and from Ready .73-0.9. This is pretty quick action for me. I was seeing the old "flash" sight picture but I had to trust the index and the press for those times.

I think maybe play around with shooting faster than you can "read" your sights the way your OCD is wanting you to read them. Maybe just work on it with singles from the draw (D1) or ready (R1) to get the hang of just seeing what you need to see to get a hit vs seeing more than is really needed?

28638

[Robinson]

Re this "horizontal" thing, are we referring to the P.E. Kelly "trick" with a carbine where he brought his sight onto the target laterally from the side and broke the shot as he paused on target vs trying to hold it there and steady it?

I've used that method for rifle shooting but never with handguns.

Very interesting thread.

[GJM]

I did this video this morning, demonstrating how I am pressing the trigger with dot in motion, so shot breaks just as it reaches the plate. Eight inch steel at 25 yards, so it is a shot that requires aiming and trigger.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5XGmkFjD18

[Mr_White]

Two of the dry drills I teach in class (Sights, Meet Trigger 1 and 2) address this exact thing with regard to subsequent shots.

I previously posted Sights, Meet Trigger 1 and 2 under different names as the Drill of the Week.

This became Sights, Meet Trigger 1: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15504-Week-105-Driving-The-Gun-Single-Target

These two are both Sights, Meet Trigger 2 (we do the body to head up-transition in class): https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15678-Week-107-Driving-The-Gun-Up-Transitions

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15825-Week-109-Driving-The-Gun-Lateral-Transitions-1

I made a quick video yesterday to provide a visual explanation of Sights, Meet Trigger 1. The first part is working on a USPSA lower A-zone at 7 yards. The second part is on the upper A-zone at the same distance. My support hand is slightly in the way but you can still see what I'm doing.

A few important points:

When your arms/hands get tired and you are going to dismount the gun to rest a little, get your finger in register first.

Take care to grip the gun properly and consistently. There is a lot of ungripping and regripping.

Avoid 'popping' the gun up as if it were recoiling - just get the front sight set at whatever you think its highest point of travel is, THEN (mentally separately) do the drill of driving the front sight back to the target spot and working the trigger.

This drill does NOT work on recoil control - it works on linking the act of bringing the front sight back to the target spot and timing trigger manipulation to go along with that.


https://youtu.be/9uB2gK2f08c

[Sal Picante]

... or you could just learn to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights.

[ducks]

:rolleyes:

[Mr_White]

... or you could just learn to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights.

[ducks]

:rolleyes:

If we made it that simple, what the heck would we have to talk about? And how would we use So Many Words? ;)

[GJM]

... or you could just learn to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights.

[ducks]

:rolleyes:

Smarty pants, you need to go back to your Glock 22!

[Mr_White]

Posted my dry drill as the Drill of the Week: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32356-Week-280-Sights-Meet-Trigger-1

[nwhpfan]

If we made it that simple, what the heck would we have to talk about? And how would we use So Many Words? ;)

I think you make the point....

how easily pulling the trigger can be overthought.

I don't think about "how" I pull the trigger other than doing it without messing up my aim or ensuring I'm on target when I do.

[Mr_White]

I think this thread isn't really just about running the trigger straight back. That's a thing all by itself and a lot of people teach or talk about multiple sub-varieties of just that isolated act. This thread is about getting that going ALONG WITH the sights getting on target or back on target. To me, it's about the ALONG WITH part.

[Sal Picante]

If we made it that simple, what the heck would we have to talk about?

Music lawsuits? ;)



And how would we use So Many Words? ;)

You'd probably use more!

[Sal Picante]

I think this thread isn't really just about running the trigger straight back. That's a thing all by itself and a lot of people teach or talk about multiple sub-varieties of just that isolated act. This thread is about getting that going ALONG WITH the sights getting on target or back on target. To me, it's about the ALONG WITH part.

This! In droves.

But... I think it is over-thought. The emphasis on "along with" should be on the ability to transition and decreasing the par-time. 80% of the people will begin the press during the swing naturally, while the remaining 20% benefit from the mental imagery you describe in the "trigger meets sights" drills.

I think the ("simplified", "over-generalized") hierarchy applies nicely here:



Trigger
Sights/Aiming
Movement/Position


If you aren't at the limit of knowing how to move the gun around effectively, then learning how to round off the edges between the trigger and sights "tier" is jumping the gun...

[MGW]

My training partner and I were talking about Glock triggers and this thread. Our conclusion about what gets me in trouble with Glock triggers is my brain telling me that slack out equals a trigger that's ready to break. In reallity slack out to the wall equals needing to continue to press through the break. Instead I see what I need to see with the sights and then try to break the trigger right now.

I think I would like the Glock trigger a lot better if the wall wasn't there. Just a miniature double action. Probably the exact reason I gravitate toward TDA. The feedback from the DA press slows me down enough to break the trigger clean. The SA doesn't have enough creep for me to screw up sight alignment before the shot breaks.

[Mr_White]

This! In droves.

But... I think it is over-thought. The emphasis on "along with" should be on the ability to transition and decreasing the par-time. 80% of the people will begin the press during the swing naturally, while the remaining 20% benefit from the mental imagery you describe in the "trigger meets sights" drills.

I think the ("simplified", "over-generalized") hierarchy applies nicely here:



Trigger
Sights/Aiming
Movement/Position


If you aren't at the limit of knowing how to move the gun around effectively, then learning how to round off the edges between the trigger and sights "tier" is jumping the gun...

Good points Les! Just don't sue me for stealing your trigger press. ;)

[Clusterfrack]

I’m glad Les chimed in first because this also seems obvious and natural to me and I was worried it would seem dickish to say so.

(Thanks for being the dick, Les)

What is a challenge right now is not pulling off the target before the gun is finished shooting it. It doesn’t happen often. But when I miss, that’s often the cause.

[Mr_White]

I’m glad Les chimed in first because this also seems obvious and natural to me and I was worried it would seem dickish to say so.

(Thanks for being the dick, Les)

What is a challenge right now is not pulling off the target before the gun is finished shooting it. It doesn’t happen often. But when I miss, that’s often the cause.

Fair enough. You guys are quite advanced shooters in the big scheme of things. I'm not so sure it's obvious to people who have been taught to pin the trigger and only let it out to minimum reset AFTER seeing the sights back on target, and have not yet moved beyond that though. For example, last weekend at the Rangemaster NW Tactical Conference at FAS, I ran a half day class twice. It was not introductory material for rank beginners, but was not terribly advanced either. I had them do Sights, Meet Trigger 1. While they were doing the drill, I found a significant number of them who I needed to tell to manipulate the trigger more actively while the sight was coming back to the target, rather than waiting to work the trigger until afterward. Maybe that's partly just an artifact of the isolated drill - I don't know. One person expressed clear revelation at the idea of manipulating the trigger while the sights were moving instead of afterward.

[Clusterfrack]

Great points Gabe. Another example of how hard this can be is when newer shooters try to shoot the Texas Star or swingers. Unless you’re comfortable beginning to break the shot with a dynamic sight picture, these are tough problems to solve.

[GJM]

Yes, I think we all agree the goal is to press the trigger as quickly as possible, without unacceptably disturbing the sights. The reason for this thread is the way I am doing this with a Glock, is different than the way I do this with a CZ, for example, because of the characteristics of my Glock trigger (minus connector/5.0 Wolf striker spring, and otherwise OEM parts). I am using movement with the Glock to work through the travel, weight and junk in the trigger, and still shoot quickly. If I tried to do the same with a Shadow 2 or tuned 92, the pistol would fire before I reached the target.

[awp_101]

Fair enough. You guys are quite advanced shooters in the big scheme of things. I'm not so sure it's obvious to people who have been taught to pin the trigger and only let it out to minimum reset AFTER seeing the sights back on target, and have not yet moved beyond that though.

Or those of us who have been “blasters” for years and are now trying to transition into “shooters”. The idea of taking up the slack while the pistol is in motion is indeed a revelation to me. It’s also a little uncomfortable because I can get an unintentional double tap with my 92s if I fixate on the sights or otherwise mentally wander. It’s just another thing I need to work on.:D

[1911Nut]

GJM said: If I tried to do the same with a Shadow 2 or tuned 92, the pistol would fire before I reached the target."

THIS!

[Clobbersaurus]

I have to admit this thread had me a bit flummoxed. I thought that perhaps I wasn’t “running” the trigger properly or giving it enough thought. So I ran one of my favourite drills for pushing speed; the “ Half Accelerator”, at least that’s what I call it, which is basically just Ben Stoeger’s Accelerator with only 6 rounds and no reload. Three targets at 7, 15, and 25 yards. Draw and put two rounds on each. It’s not my favourite because I’m any good at it, it’s my favourite beacause it’s hard and tests accuracy while running the trigger as fast as you can while the sights are constantly moving. I ran that drill, and focussed the camera on the gun in slow motion to see what I was actually doing with the trigger.

So, I posted obove that I thought my trigger finger doesn’t leave the trigger, and I was mostly right. “Mostly” being the key word. Basically I think that at very high speeds, like .16 split that I had on the 7 yard target, what I thought I was doing, was not exactly what I am doing. During the 7-15 yard transition it looks like I removed my finger fully from the trigger. Weird, because I didn’t do it on the 15-25 yard transition. I badly bobbled my grip on this draw, so it ended up giving me a slow draw speed and you can see my support hand is a little jacked up. I think that had a lot to do with my accuracy issues on the 15 yard target. As info, I was aiming the gun hard at all distances, watching the front sight and trying to decelerate and clean up the sights before working the trigger.

Maybe I’m not advanced enough to get the OP’s concepts, but I almost think that all this trigger talk is overthinking and I lean more toward Les’s opinion to just run the trigger straight back and grip it the gun hard.


https://youtu.be/eM0hGJAIQrs

[JHC]

Yes, I think we all agree the goal is to press the trigger as quickly as possible, without unacceptably disturbing the sights. The reason for this thread is the way I am doing this with a Glock, is different than the way I do this with a CZ, for example, because of the characteristics of my Glock trigger (minus connector/5.0 Wolf striker spring, and otherwise OEM parts). I am using movement with the Glock to work through the travel, weight and junk in the trigger, and still shoot quickly. If I tried to do the same with a Shadow 2 or tuned 92, the pistol would fire before I reached the target.

When I sort out my contact lens prescription I want to try this. I am not so much interested in how prepping the trigger works with transitions between A/C sized targets at 0-15 yards as much as I am about a 25 yard headbox shot coming in like P.E. Kelly style.

The Texas Star might be a good example where I've done something similar. But I want to try it on a stationary low probability target.

[GJM]

I have to admit this thread had me a bit flummoxed. I thought that perhaps I wasn’t “running” the trigger properly or giving it enough thought. So I ran one of my favourite drills for pushing speed; the “ Half Accelerator”, at least that’s what I call it, which is basically just Ben Stoeger’s Accelerator with only 6 rounds and no reload. Three targets at 7, 15, and 25 yards. Draw and put two rounds on each. It’s not my favourite because I’m any good at it, it’s my favourite beacause it’s hard and tests accuracy while running the trigger as fast as you can while the sights are constantly moving. I ran that drill, and focussed the camera on the gun in slow motion to see what I was actually doing with the trigger.

So, I posted obove that I thought my trigger finger doesn’t leave the trigger, and I was mostly right. “Mostly” being the key word. Basically I think that at very high speeds, like .16 split that I had on the 7 yard target, what I thought I was doing, was not exactly what I am doing. During the 7-15 yard transition it looks like I removed my finger fully from the trigger. Weird, because I didn’t do it on the 15-25 yard transition. I badly bobbled my grip on this draw, so it ended up giving me a slow draw speed and you can see my support hand is a little jacked up. I think that had a lot to do with my accuracy issues on the 15 yard target. As info, I was aiming the gun hard at all distances, watching the front sight and trying to decelerate and clean up the sights before working the trigger.

Maybe I’m not advanced enough to get the OP’s concepts, but I almost think that all this trigger talk is overthinking and I lean more toward Les’s opinion to just run the trigger straight back and grip it the gun hard.


https://youtu.be/eM0hGJAIQrs

At 7 yards with an open target, it really doesn’t matter how you work the trigger. At 15, if I am interpreting your video correctly you shot a C and D and at 25 yards an A and C. I would consider that drill a fail if I didn’t shoot all A’s. Now try the same drill with a tuxedo at 7 and 15 and a typical partial at 25. At the match I was at this weekend, we had a tuxedo and partial target at 23 yards, shot from a swinging bridge. This technique is for difficult targets.

[Clobbersaurus]

At 7 yards with an open target, it really doesn’t matter how you work the trigger.

I respectfully disagree.


At 15, if I am interpreting your video correctly you shot a C and D and at 25 yards an A and C. I would consider that drill a fail if I didn’t shoot all A’s.

I never said I considered it a pass. I was just posting the results of the only video I had showing how I run the trigger. I ran that drill over a dozen times, some iterations were much better, some worse. But I wasn’t evaluating accuracy, I was pushing split speeds. An IPSC classic target is 6 inches at it’s widest and 12.8” in height. I don’t consider that an easy shot at 25 Yards, not at the speeds I was shooting it at. I also wasn’t shooting a red dot, not that it matters much.

I’ll bow out of this thread. My apologies for contributing.

[Sal Picante]

Good points Les! Just don't sue me for stealing your trigger press. ;)

I have a trigger press?

I mean... Yeah! I have the "pepperoni press®"!

Expect my people to talk to your people soon!

[Sal Picante]

Fair enough. You guys are quite advanced shooters in the big scheme of things. I'm not so sure it's obvious to people who have been taught to pin the trigger and only let it out to minimum reset AFTER seeing the sights back on target, and have not yet moved beyond that though. For example, last weekend at the Rangemaster NW Tactical Conference at FAS, I ran a half day class twice. It was not introductory material for rank beginners, but was not terribly advanced either. I had them do Sights, Meet Trigger 1. While they were doing the drill, I found a significant number of them who I needed to tell to manipulate the trigger more actively while the sight was coming back to the target, rather than waiting to work the trigger until afterward. Maybe that's partly just an artifact of the isolated drill - I don't know. One person expressed clear revelation at the idea of manipulating the trigger while the sights were moving instead of afterward.

This is what I love about PF - there are a lot of roads to Rome and topics sometimes push across the board to pitch concepts at all levels.

[GJM]

I respectfully disagree.



I never said I considered it a pass. I was just posting the results of the only video I had showing how I run the trigger. I ran that drill over a dozen times, some iterations were much better, some worse. But I wasn’t evaluating accuracy, I was pushing split speeds. An IPSC classic target is 6 inches at it’s widest and 12.8” in height. I don’t consider that an easy shot at 25 Yards, not at the speeds I was shooting it at. I also wasn’t shooting a red dot, not that it matters much.

I’ll bow out of this thread. My apologies for contributing.

I wish you would not bow out but rather stay in and discuss this. I see split speeds and accuracy as completely interrelated given hit factor scoring, and the point of this thread is, with the Glock specifically, how to manipulate the trigger in a way that maximizes hit factor. That seems a worthwhile discussion, with different valid approaches.

[Clusterfrack]

Clobber—I don’t think GJM was trying to be dismissive. Hope you stay in the discussion.

[GJM]

Clobber—I don’t think GJM was trying to be dismissive. Hope you stay in the discussion.

Correct and agree.

[P.E. Kelley]

A few disparate but related thoughts in no particular order:

This is the micro press out concept (I think you mentioned that already) that for me came out of my working with variations of the press out draw years ago, applied to all dimensions of gun movement and deceleration rather than just horizontally at the end of a draw.

This is related to the DA trigger manipulation practice of 'keeping the trigger moving'.

Two of the dry drills I teach in class (Sights, Meet Trigger 1 and 2) address this exact thing with regard to subsequent shots.

I am self taught in that I have had no "formal instruction" outside of my Dad showing and encouraging the fundamentals of making
an accurate shot.

I shoot Glocks by choice in competitions. I have held my own with them over the last 20 years or so. I say that
so you all have some perspective on my thoughts on how I run a Glock trigger.

I highlighted Mr. White "keeping the trigger moving" as that is how I run and instruct, but as a simple man I like to use the analogy "swing set". In other words, the trigger is moved back and forth as one would see a swing set
moving. Back and forth at the same speed. A swing can't move one way faster than the other when free-swinging.

I work to think and manipulate the trigger that way on every shot. Fast hose'em or 80 yard plate racks.

FWIW.

[Clobbersaurus]

Clobber—I don’t think GJM was trying to be dismissive. Hope you stay in the discussion.

Sorry guys, I guess I misinterpreted GJM’s post. I like this thread quite a bit, and I also think it’s well worth discussing further.

[GJM]

Sorry guys, I guess I misinterpreted GJM’s post. I like this thread quite a bit, and I also think it’s well worth discussing further.

No worries, the Internet doesn’t always lemd itself to the best exchange of ideas.

For me, this whole thread boils down to a choice between two methods. There is Robbie‘s method of stop, aim and jerk the trigger straight back. Alternatively, what seems to be working better for me with the Glock trigger, is to do the aiming and pressing simultaneously, so that the shot breaks as soon as the gun stops. They are two different approaches, trying to achieve the same goal.

[holmes168]

Sorry guys, I guess I misinterpreted GJM’s post. I like this thread quite a bit, and I also think it’s well worth discussing further.

Definitely keep discussing- it’s helps a lot of us learn. I’ve read through this thread a dozen times at least.

[Robinson]

I am self taught in that I have had no "formal instruction" outside of my Dad showing and encouraging the fundamentals of making
an accurate shot.

I shoot Glocks by choice in competitions. I have held my own with them over the last 20 years or so. I say that
so you all have some perspective on my thoughts on how I run a Glock trigger.

I highlighted Mr. White "keeping the trigger moving" as that is how I run and instruct, but as a simple man I like to use the analogy "swing set". In other words, the trigger is moved back and forth as one would see a swing set
moving. Back and forth at the same speed. A swing can't move one way faster than the other when free-swinging.

I work to think and manipulate the trigger that way on every shot. Fast hose'em or 80 yard plate racks.

FWIW.

Hmm... what part does reset play in your trigger technique -- or does it? I am a long time 1911 shooter just recently experimenting with a pair of G34s. I find the G34 trigger to be quite good, though obviously different than what I am used to. The Glock trigger reset is nice, and it seems to help speed up things between each shot (not sure that's a good way to explain it). I don't pin the trigger after a shot, and am enjoying the Glock trigger reset so far.

[Sal Picante]

I like to use the analogy "swing set". In other words, the trigger is moved back and forth as one would see a swing set
moving. Back and forth at the same speed. A swing can't move one way faster than the other when free-swinging.

I work to think and manipulate the trigger that way on every shot. Fast hose'em or 80 yard plate racks.

FWIW.

What I find interesting is the opposite: Most people slap the trigger and get off of it when they learn to "go fast" and then "linger" on the trigger when taking harder shots: The press might be fairly quick, but the finger doesn't swing off of it, etc...

[P.E. Kelley]

What I find interesting is the opposite: Most people slap the trigger and get off of it when they learn to "go fast" and then "linger" on the trigger when taking harder shots: The press might be fairly quick, but the finger doesn't swing off of it, etc...

I try (I keep saying try as that is my goal) to not let my finger come off the trigger.
12 splits at 7 yards? I bet some day light is seen, but again I try to have the rearward and forward motion be
at the same rate.

[Sal Picante]

I try (I keep saying try as that is my goal) to not let my finger come off the trigger.
12 splits at 7 yards? I bet some day light is seen, but again I try to have the rearward and forward motion be
at the same rate.

It is interesting... I always just think about taking the shot, never really think about the reset.

I guess I liken it to reading music: you clap on that downbeat, but don't really worry about resetting your hands - it just sorta happens.

Regardless - there is so much great info here...

[GJM]

As another data point, TPC, Manny Bragg and JJ teach to reset the trigger as fast as possible, with speed gains coming from resetting faster rather than pressing the trigger faster.

[P.E. Kelley]

I will have to dig around for some slow motion video, but I don't think anyone is resetting the trigger during muzzle lift.

[41magfan]

A lot of people claim to do a lot of things and when they're deliberately performing it (whatever "it" is) as a demonstration, they can do it on demand. Otherwise, it ain't usually happening like they would like to think.

As noted by P.E. Kelley, video tells the tale.

[GJM]

I am not sure what someone claimed as to when they are resetting the trigger, and what slow motion video would exactly show, but I think most of us would agree that for shooting at speed, the goal is to get the trigger reset and ready to fire again as soon as possible.

[P.E. Kelley]

I am not sure what someone claimed as to when they are resetting the trigger, and what slow motion video would exactly show, but I think most of us would agree that for shooting at speed, the goal is to get the trigger reset and ready to fire again as soon as possible.

Absolutely!

[Sal Picante]

I try (I keep saying try as that is my goal) to not let my finger come off the trigger.
12 splits at 7 yards? I bet some day light is seen, but again I try to have the rearward and forward motion be
at the same rate.

I found one... With a Beretta, none-the-less!

https://i.imgur.com/SK3Ao3Q.gif

[P.E. Kelley]

I found one... With a Beretta, none-the-less!

https://i.imgur.com/SK3Ao3Q.gif

Colloquially known as a "Munden Whip" (Bob Munden) Benico did a poor job executing that one. :)

[P.E. Kelley]

Mr. Vogel..
https://youtu.be/beOVo1HQd30

[Clobbersaurus]

A lot of people claim to do a lot of things and when they're deliberately performing it (whatever "it" is) as a demonstration, they can do it on demand. Otherwise, it ain't usually happening like they would like to think.

As noted by P.E. Kelley, video tells the tale.

I agree. I just used the slow motion video I took, ran it through the slow motion filter in i-movie, and slowed it down as much as I could. It showed some interesting things. My second shot in that video was a .16 split and the gun recoiled and was fully back into battery in what looked like less than half that time. I’m not sure it’s physically possible to reset the trigger finger so fast that the slide is still in motion while doing it? It does show that I am resetting the trigger just after the slide goes back into battery, but if you had asked me, I would tell you that I am “trying” to reset the trigger under recoil.

There is a recent video on YouTube of Max Michelle where he does not reset the trigger until the slide is almost fully back into battery with a full open gun. I think like you posted, what folks think they do, and what they actually do are a little different. Link below:

https://www.facebook.com/maxmichel.us/videos/1995040243842191/

[gomerpyle]

I will have to dig around for some slow motion video, but I don't think anyone is resetting the trigger during muzzle lift.

Agreed. Here's a link to an Instagram video that Mr. Langdon recorded, of himself, where he stresses the importance of resetting the trigger. He explicitly notes that he cannot reset the trigger while the muzzle is lifting.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BcLPtBaFmu9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[P.E. Kelley]

Agreed. Here's a link to an Instagram video that Mr. Langdon recorded, of himself, where he stresses the importance of resetting the trigger. He explicitly notes that he cannot reset the trigger while the muzzle is lifting.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BcLPtBaFmu9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Perfect, thank you!

[Redhat]

Perfect, thank you!

The other thing I found interesting in this video is how his muzzle never goes below line of sight during recoil recovery. Whereas I see that commonly when less skilled mere mortals shoot. The muzzles go up, then dip down, then back up to sight re-alignment. I've noticed this in Larry Vickers' slo-mo videos as well.

[Mr_White]

The other thing I found interesting in this video is how his muzzle never goes below line of sight during recoil recovery. Whereas I see that commonly when less skilled mere mortals shoot. The muzzles go up, then dip down, then back up to sight re-alignment. I've noticed this in Larry Vickers' slo-mo videos as well.

Great observation. I wonder how much of that phenomenon is shooter skill, and how much is recoil spring weight tuning. I don't know the answer - but I know recoil spring weight affects that.

[Redhat]

Great observation. I wonder how much of that phenomenon is shooter skill, and how much is recoil spring weight tuning. I don't know the answer - but I know recoil spring weight affects that.

Yeah I agree it can but LAV seems to do it with every pistol he demos in his vids. I haven't seen EL shoot much slo-mo video but I suspect it would be the same with him. Now to figure out the "how"

[Clobbersaurus]

Great observation. I wonder how much of that phenomenon is shooter skill, and how much is recoil spring weight tuning. I don't know the answer - but I know recoil spring weight affects that.

I was able to upload the ultra slow motion video of the Gen 5 under recoil. Stock recoil spring, no mods, except sights and a little grip tape. The muzzle doesn’t dip below horizontal.

The ultra slow motion video is interesting and it shows exactly what I am doing to disturbed the gun when working the trigger fairly fast. In this case I think a bit more visual patience is really what I need to work on, coupled with snapping vision from target to target and harder focus on the front sight. I need to take some video of my eyes when doing the same drill, I think it would be fairly interesting, but I probably make funny faces when I shoot. :rolleyes:


https://youtu.be/YJ3zrbwLe18

[GJM]

I have been working on smiling when shooting, but so far I keep forgetting to do so. Do you move the gun to the target, stop and then break the shot, or do you coordinate the trigger and moving, so the shot breaks as soon as you reach the target? I am working on the second approach. Here is a very short video showing how I work the trigger between targets.


https://youtu.be/Du_8lYM0lW8

[Clobbersaurus]

I have been working on smiling when shooting, but so far I keep forgetting to do so. Do you move the gun to the target, stop and then break the shot, or do you coordinate the trigger and moving, so the shot breaks as soon as you reach the target? I am working on the second approach. Here is a very short video showing how I work the trigger between targets.


On tight shots I move, stop, and then press as I’m cleaning up the sights. On close stuff I’m on the trigger much more aggressively. In matches I consistently shoot the most A’s, so I fully admit I am probably over aiming and/or not being aggressive enough with trigger prep. I’m going to have to give your method a go and see what I can learn about it.

[GJM]

I continue to find that with the Glock trigger, working the trigger with the sights in motion gives me the best results.

This is from a practice session today. Highlights:

Shooting half of Gabe’s test with only half an A zone.

Quasi el Prez, but at 25 yards on eight inch steel.

Draw and shoot three eight inch steel at 15 yards, reload and repeat support hand.

Draw and shoot three eight inch steel at 15 yards, strong hand.

Shoot eight inch steel at 30 yards, support hand only.

Four aces, testing a new mag release that my wife likes as a left hand shooter on the Gen 4.

bill drill.

You can definitely see that I am working the trigger between shots so the shot breaks as I reach the target.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyZqj1TapcE