Move to Red dots or stick with irons? Problems with sight focus

[TOTS]

Quesion for you guys: trying to decide wether to get into a red dot, or if i should keep focusing on iron sight shooting. Im a relatively new pistol shooter compared to you guys. Only been shooting seriously for two years or so. And nowhere near the volume of most of you. Im just now getting to the point where i can consistently apply the fundamentals.

Heres my problem (well, ill start with just the one!) I tell myself to sharply focus on the front sight. Due to lighting, etc, whatever, my brain and eyes are constantly jumping back and forth between target focus and front sight focus with what i most associate with a “flash” sight picture (I may be using this term incorrectly). Target focus is easy for me and my eyes stay there without the un-commanded “jump”. When shooting with irons (all of my guns have the JohnO tape mod) I can get all three focal planes fuzzy with clarity bouncing between front sight and the target. Though the front is always clear enough to ensure sight alignment and i can see the fuzzy red post/ dot in relation to the POA. So now that I learn that the correct sight picture for a dot sight is a target focus with the dot superimposed on the intended point of impact, im thinking to myself that this may be a case where hardware could be a solution to a problem. My biggest reservation, though, is that i feel im a beginner moving on prior to mastering the basics.

Are there ways of practicing focus to prevent shift? Seems like when im focusing correctly on the front sight, i cant see smaller targets. So, when is the appropriate time to transition? This is within the context of defensive and recreational shooting.

Another huge problem is a tendency to pop up to see my impacts after shooting, but we’ll save that one for later; i can work on that one.

Thanks for the time and attention.

[BehindBlueI's]

Heres my problem (well, ill start with just the one!) I tell myself to sharply focus on the front sight. Due to lighting, etc, whatever, my brain and eyes are constantly jumping back and forth between target focus and front sight focus with what i most associate with a “flash” sight picture

I *cannot* force my eyes to focus on a black target using a black front sight and black rears. I'm partially color blind and some colors just fade into others. The dark green Sig's "Legion" stuff comes with? Might as well be black for me in most lighting conditions.

For me the answer was a high visibility (orange, yellow, very light green) front and a plain black rear. Trijicon HD, Heinie straight 8, something like that.

[Clusterfrack]

I recommend not moving to a red dot until you have mastered iron sights--unless you have serious vision limitations. That way you will be able to weight the pros and cons of each system. Personally, I do not find a dot to be worthwhile on my carry guns.

Check out Gabe White's excellent article on vision:
http://www.gabewhitetraining.com/articles/vision/

For me, a narrow, black rear and a narrow fiber optic front are the easiest to shoot well. Big, colored front sights (like the HD) are much harder for me to focus on.

This takes a lot of practice. Don't give up!

[Mitch]

I recommend not moving to a red dot until you have mastered iron sights--unless you have serious vision limitations. That way you will be able to weight the pros and cons of each system. Personally, I do not find a dot to be worthwhile on my carry guns.



Can you expand on that? I’m close to taking the plunge on a putting a red dot on a Glock, but I’ve never shot a dot gun so I’m curious.


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[Redhat]

Try shooting at a target with no bullseye or markings...plain white paper or paper plates. Maintain front sight focus before and after the shot. Check hits only after finished with your string of fire. Concentrate on the sight: see it properly aligned before the shot, watch it lift and drop at the shot, realign it in the rear sight after the shot..

[Clusterfrack]

Can you expand on that? I’m close to taking the plunge on a putting a red dot on a Glock, but I’ve never shot a dot gun so I’m curious.


It's totally a personal thing. I think there's lots to be learned by shooting a dot, so that makes it worth doing IMO.

I spend so much time practicing with my USPSA Production division gear that iron sights are vastly more familiar to me. Maybe if I dip my toes in Open or Carry Optics... ? Nah. ;)

[1Rangemaster]

Two perhaps sometime conflicting uses: recreational and defensive.
My reading of posts here(especially GJMs, who shoots competition but carries also) indicate the red dot sights are not reliable consistently-meaning the dot goes out-no bueno for defensive use. But the red dots are a great asset in competition. One looks at the target, puts the sight between the eyes and target, and the dot pops onto the impact area(assumes zero).
At 65, I need a highlighted front for my eyes to pick up quickly. I like and use Ameriglo sights with yellow paint on front,
Or the white outline on Warren/Sevigny sights.
Good luck in your quest-but whatever you decide on, practice with it!

[Clusterfrack]

1Rangemaster makes a great point about reliability. If you go with a RDS, cowitnessed iron sights are a must for a defensive gun. It drives me nuts when I see dovetail-mounted RDS on carry guns. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed dots go out at matches.

[JAH 3rd]

I put a set of AmeriGlo Hackathorn sights on my Glock 21. The rear sight is all black with a generous notch. The front sight is tritium insert surrounded by an orange donut. I am able to pick-up the front sight easily with my almost 65 year old eyes. This combo works for me.

So far my one and only red dot sight is a Vortex Sparc II that I have on my Beretta CX-4 9mm carbine. Once I got it dialed in, just put the dot where you want the bullet to go. I use this for 50 yard and under shooting. Haven't tried it at longer ranges.

[YVK]

Seems like when im focusing correctly on the front sight, i cant see smaller targets.


None of us can unless they are really high contrast.

I think that concentrating on seeing sights lift and come back without worrying much how well you're seeing the target will help with both focusing issue and eye sprinting issue. Another important aspect that I wish I were told much much earlier in my path is to learn which targets can and should be shot with a target focus.

On the other hand, I really don't think there is a big deal in switching to dot. The ultimate goal is to learn how to read your aiming device, dot or irons, correctly. Seeing how a lot of [strong] dot users pick up irons guns after a looong time and shoot them well, I don't think that the rule of learning irons first and then the dot applies anymore. I also think that the dot is better in providing feedback in regards to trigger press, anticipation etc. I actually think that starting on a dot could be a faster route to high proficiency because of that but that's just the theory. We don't yet have a generation of people who started on RDS and then learned irons to compare their learning curves to a conventional path.
From a defensive standpoint, I think RMRs are pretty good already as long as you can conceal one.

[Jack Ryan]

I bought a Leopold red dot last year for a scout rifle type set up.

I hate it. Honestly I can't find a useful purpose for it, I'd never buy another or recommend one. In bright light, it's too dim. In low light, it's too bright. It's big, in the way, everything else around you reflects off it like a magician trick glass. $400 worth of useless IMHO.

[TOTS]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I’m finding a thinner front sight helps with the eye sprinting.

[Bucky]

I think a red dot is a good training tool, but should not replace iron sights. The red dot allows you to focus on other aspects of shooting, such as trigger control.

[David S.]

I don’t know much about these things, but it seems like the market has pretty well stabilized on the Aimpoint T1 and maybe the PRO as the high quality standard for carbine RDS use.

My eyesight is still good so I’m inclined to wait til the pistol RDS market settles similarly.

[rob_s]

To the OP, have you had any formal instruction?

I know that I shot for years, even shooting IDPA for a couple of years, prior to getting quality formal instruction for the first time in a Randy Cain 3-day pistol class. Changed my life.

[psalms144.1]

Maintain front sight focus before and after the shot. Check hits only after finished with your string of fire. Concentrate on the sight: see it properly aligned before the shot, watch it lift and drop at the shot, realign it in the rear sight after the shot..Total gold here for a new shooter. You're most likely looking at the target because you want to see your hits. DO NOT DO THAT! If you start looking for your hits, you will train yourself to look at the target over looking at the sights. You need to "untrain" this behavior, until your fundamentals are rock solid.

Keep your focus on the front sight and watch the front sight through recoil - you should see it lift straight up out of the rear notch and return straight down. Seeing it move in any other direction between straight up and down is how you'll start to be able to "call" your shots when you induce an error.

As always, the best answer before technology is to find a good teacher in your area, and get proper instruction. Once you've mastered the basics, you can tell is a RDS is going to improve your shooting...

[jtcarm]

There's two types of sighting errors: hold errors and alignment errors. A hold error is the sight not being centered on the target. An alignment error is the FS not being aligned with the rear. Of the two, the alignment error is much more severe.

Redhat's excellent advice can be extended to dry fire drills. Just aim at a wall that makes your FS stand out. Dry fire while focusing on the FS and remember where it is when the shot breaks. This is also a good way to learn trigger control, i.e. getting the shot off without disturbing your sight picture, and/or getting the shot to break during the "minimum arc of movement" as the Bullseye shooters say.

Do the same thing during live fire (this is known as "calling" the shot), like 1:00, 2:00, etc.

Small targets: welcome to iron-sight shooting! A FS can easily cover a target completely (so can a big dot). I strongly suggest you avoid small targets until you've conquered your wandering eyes, as small targets will only make it worse. Once you're ready to take them on (like a beer can at 50 yards or more), you have to trust that your brain has the sight is where it needs to be in relation to the target and keep your eye on that FS.

[JohnO]

There's two types of sighting errors: hold errors and alignment errors. A hold error is the sight not being centered on the target. An alignment error is the FS not being aligned with the rear. Of the two, the alignment error is much more severe.


Yes. I like to describe the two as Angular Deviation and Parallel Deviation.

Angular deviation occurs when your front and rear sight are not properly aligned. The resulting error for a given misalignment increases as the distance to the target increases.

Parallel Deviation occurs when your sights are properly aligned but you are pointed at the wrong spot. An error in Parallel Deviation that misses the X-ring at 5 feet by three inches is still a three inch miss at 5 yards or 50 yards.