American Rifleman .357 Magnum Tests

[Tokarev]

Nine loads tested:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/7/27/testing-the-357-mag-cartridge/

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[spinmove_]

And this is why I roll my eyes at people that insist that .357 Magnum from a snubbie is more better than .38 Special +P. .357 loads aren’t designed for snubbies and you’re going to have an easier and faster time placing your shots with .38 Spcl.


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[Tokarev]

And this is why I roll my eyes at people that insist that .357 Magnum from a snubbie is more better than .38 Special +P. .357 loads aren’t designed for snubbies and you’re going to have an easier and faster time placing your shots with .38 Spcl.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingyYeah. I assume a common misconception is that felt recoil equals terminal performance.

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[Trooper224]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.

[Tokarev]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.That's a good point. The two best performers, the Barnes/GBW 125gr and the Hornady 135gr, are both similar to 9mm +P from a 4in auto.

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[spinmove_]

Given modern bullet construction, isn’t .38 Special +P just the revolver equivalent to 9mm in 2018?


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[JHC]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.

Generally yes. What if you prefer penetration to be on the higher side and also rate barrier penetration highly? Doesn't the .357 maintain superiority over the .38 in that case?

On the thread, about if the .40 is obsolete I was impressed (as always) by
KhanRad's
comments about his experience shooting up cars.

[Tokarev]

Given modern bullet construction, isn’t .38 Special +P just the revolver equivalent to 9mm in 2018?


Still not quite there. At least not from a snub.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

The best bet is likely to be some type of modern JHP bullet in the 125-ish grain range running at 1,200-ish FPS in a .357 Mag. Something that basically duplicates 9mm 4in barrel performance but from a small package. That shouldn't be a hard problem to solve from the .357 but it probably can't be done with .38 at current SAAMI levels.

[spinmove_]

Still not quite there. At least not from a snub.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

The best bet is likely to be some type of modern JHP bullet in the 125-ish grain range running at 1,200-ish FPS in a .357 Mag. Something that basically duplicates 9mm 4in barrel performance but from a small package. That shouldn't be a hard problem to solve from the .357 but it probably can't be done with .38 at current SAAMI levels.

I’m guessing bullet construction probably needs to be tweaked a bit for .38 Special, especially in a snub, to bring it up to speed to what 9mm can do. I can’t imagine it would be THAT difficult. The demand would need to be there for it though.


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[Tokarev]

The demand would need to be there for it though.




That's it exactly.

[spinmove_]

That's it exactly.

It’s a 9mm semi-auto world we live in.


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[Tokarev]

It’s a 9mm semi-auto world we live in.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingyProbably not a bad world....[emoji16]

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[Drang]

And this is why I roll my eyes at people that insist that .357 Magnum from a snubbie is more better than .38 Special +P...
They're going for the flash-bang effect?

[Crazy Dane]

So, are yall sayin the a 9mm LCR would be a better choice than the .38? I have a couple of revolver purchases on the horizon and just doing my diligent research.

[Tokarev]

So, are yall sayin the a 9mm LCR would be a better choice than the .38? I have a couple of revolver purchases on the horizon and just doing my diligent research.I wonder how well 9mm does from a 1.87 inch barrel. Probably not very impressive.

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[spinmove_]

I wonder how well 9mm does from a 1.87 inch barrel. Probably not very impressive.

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A 1.87” revolver barrel isn’t all that much shorter than say a 3.1” M&P Shield barrel that includes the chamber in the overall length of the barrel.

A 9mm chamber is generally how long?


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[Tokarev]

A 1.87” revolver barrel isn’t all that much shorter than say a 3.1” M&P Shield barrel that includes the chamber in the overall length of the barrel.

A 9mm chamber is generally how long?


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3/4 of an inch? Give or take.

Does the 9mm work well from a 3.1" barrel? Shooting the Bull did a bunch of gel testing of various 9mm loads from small autos. From what I remember, he had a fairly hard time finding loads that met the FBI specs.

[spinmove_]

3/4 of an inch? Give or take.

Does the 9mm work well from a 3.1" barrel? Shooting the Bull did a bunch of gel testing of various 9mm loads from small autos. From what I remember, he had a fairly hard time finding loads that met the FBI specs.

IIRC DocGKR stated that anything on “The List” generally does well from a barrel that short.


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[Tokarev]

IIRC DocGKR stated that anything on “The List” generally does well from a barrel that short.


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If that's correct then it gets back to the idea that the 357 (and 38) would really benefit from some modern R&D.

[Trooper224]

Generally yes. What if you prefer penetration to be on the higher side and also rate barrier penetration highly? Doesn't the .357 maintain superiority over the .38 in that case?

On the thread, about if the .40 is obsolete I was impressed (as always) by
KhanRad's
comments about his experience shooting up cars.

In terms of penetration I'd say the .357 still has a slight edge. When you get into the smaller, shorter barreled weapons the .38 and .357 are commonly carried in these days, I think concerns of controllability and shot placement take priority over barrier penetration. I also feel that barrier penetration is the flavor of the moment and isn't as big of a concern for the average citizen as some would let on. It's not that I think it's irrelevant, because I spend my working days around vehicles too and I'm very cognizant of its importance. But, there's always something that seems to be the fixation of the moment and barrier penetration seems to be one right now. My current issue sidearm is a .40 and I have no criticism of it in overall performance, but next month it will be replaced by a 9mm and I have few real concerns over that.


My opinion is that, in the overall picture, modern ammunition in the various service calibers give similar performance to the .357 Magnum. I'm not down on the round. After all, there's one in my avatar. However, more modern weapons give similar levels of performance without all of the muzzle blast and recoil, with far greater capacity as a bonus. The juice seems to have been fully squeezed from the .357 and other fruit are far more ripe for picking.

[Tom Duffy]

Nine loads tested:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/7/27/testing-the-357-mag-cartridge/

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I'd like to have seen Federal's Vital Shok 357 included in the review. It uses the Barnes 140 grain copper bullet and I think is about as fine a self defense round as you're going to find.

[Tokarev]

I'd like to have seen Federal's Vital Shok 357 included in the review. It uses the Barnes 140 grain copper bullet and I think is about as fine a self defense round as you're going to find.

Isn't the Vital Shok a hunting load? It is probably loaded hotter than it needs to be for personal defense. What's the minimum expansion velocity for that bullet? A 357 Mag loaded to a bit above that velocity would probably make an excellent general defensive load. Something at around 1,000 FPS perhaps. It probably wouldn't pack so much wallop that it is too difficult to control.

Barnes does have a 125gr 357 load that might be close in performance to the GBW load tested here. It would likely be a solid choice.

As it stands now, I would probably choose the 357 Critical Duty for my 357 snub and 38 Critical Defense for my 38 snub.

[Lester Polfus]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.

For police duty use, or concealed carry I heartily agree. I still think it has utility in a "woods gun" role though.

[Tom Duffy]

Isn't the Vital Shok a hunting load? It is probably loaded hotter than it needs to be for personal defense. What's the minimum expansion velocity for that bullet? A 357 Mag loaded to a bit above that velocity would probably make an excellent general defensive load. Something at around 1,000 FPS perhaps. It probably wouldn't pack so much wallop that it is too difficult to control.

Barnes does have a 125gr 357 load that might be close in performance to the GBW load tested here. It would likely be a solid choice.

As it stands now, I would probably choose the 357 Critical Duty for my 357 snub and 38 Critical Defense for my 38 snub.

I don't think the Vital Shok is a hunting round in .357. I could be wrong.

The only test results I could find quickly were those published by Lucky Gunner:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#357mag

Out of a 2 inch barrel the Vital Shok penetrates 16.7 inches and expands to .67 inches with a velocity of 1106 fps. Pretty close to ideal, I think.

Out of a 4 inch barrel, 19.9 inches penetration and .63 expansion, 1300 fps.

[Wheeler]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.

In what context?

[Tokarev]

Out of a 2 inch barrel the Vital Shok...velocity of 1106 fps. Pretty close to ideal, I think.


Buffalo Bore has both a "tactical" and "heavy" 140gr load. The "tactical" might be a very good option for defense ammo.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=324


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[Velo Dog]

The 140 gr. Barnes XPB bullet should be a good choice for hunting and protection. The Buffalo Bore "Tactical" loading is 50-100 fps slower than the Federal or Barnes offerings from a 4" barrel. Federal considers their Barnes Expander (P357XB1) suitable for medium game such as hog and standard whitetail deer. In the Lucky Gunner test the XPB expanded perfectly at 1090 fps; therefore, with Federal's advertised 1400 fps muzzle velocity from a six inch revolver, the bullet is capable of expansion at 125 yards or further.

[Tokarev]

It would seem the perfect 357 Mag snub load already exists in the form of the 135gr Critical Duty. It worked well in these tests. 2nd choice is anything loaded with a 125gr Barnes that gives 1150ish feet per second whether it is loaded by Buffalo Bore, Barnes, GBW, etc.

Next question is how these loads shoot in your particular gun. Will either load be close to aim if you are stuck with fixed sights?

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[Brian T]

I wonder how well 9mm does from a 1.87 inch barrel. Probably not very impressive.

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I had an email response from one Paul Nowack(sp?), a or the lead designer on the Winchester Ranger Talon, in which he states 147gr variant (RA9T) would expand as low as 660fps. A snub will produce higher velocities than that.

[Tokarev]

I had an email response from one Paul Nowack(sp?), a or the lead designer on the Winchester Ranger Talon, in which he states 147gr variant (RA9T) would expand as low as 660fps. A snub will produce higher velocities than that.Expand or sort of smoosh? I doubt we'd see full-on flowering at that low speed.

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[Brian T]

Expand or sort of smoosh? I doubt we'd see full-on flowering at that low speed.

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Expand. The RA9T was designed as an all purpose round for LE. Use it in full sized or subcompact pistols. I have no doubts other 147gr JHPs, like the 147gr HST (standard and +P) will work at low velocities.

[Brian T]

Paul Nowak of Winchester

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Some people seem to think that faster is better no matter what and really don’t think much about terminal ballistics. They only think about foot pounds of energy. The +P+ cartridge is not a SAAMI cartridge and has a substantially higher pressure than regular or +P ammunition. It also has more recoil than the 147 gr. product 23% more to be exact. In addition many gun manufacturers will not warranty their guns if used with ammo that is not loaded to SAAMI specs. This ammo is definitely harder on your gun and on you since you have more recoil to deal with. If I was going to use the 127 gr. +P+ round, I would want to use it in a standard barrel length gun.

[03RN]

Fwiw the Remington golden sabers is a 125 hrain bullet at about 1200fps
28551

[Tokarev]

As a general rule, an increase in velocity means an increase in expansion and/or an increase in when the bullet starts to expand. Somewhat contrary to what we'd think, the increase in velocity actually can have a negative impact on penetration. As the bullet opens, the frontal surface area increases and creates drag. So expanding more or expanding earlier means a bullet that doesn't penetrate as well.


I think we can safely assume that anything that opened well and penetrated well in the 2" tests will also do the same from a 2.5 or 3 inch barrel. Stuff like the Critical Duty will still work fine. The GBW Barnes might be borderline but will still probably meet the 12" minimum. Other stuff like the 110gr Winchester and 125gr Federal will do even worse and will hyper expand, break up and offer shallow penetration. The increased velocity will probably help the 140gr Buffalo Bore but the 158 Speer Gold Dot still probably won't open well. The 158 Gold Dot is a hunting bullet and probably is at it's best from something like a 6" barrel.*


Anyway, how hard would it be for Federal to adapt the new 9mm Hydra Shok Deep bullet to 357 Magnum? I bet that bullet could easily be driven to 1,100 fps from a short barrel. It would be a snappy but not insane load and would probably work very well as a modern Magnum self defense bullet.


Email campaign coming? Who's with me?



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[Inspector71]

Given modern ammunition performance, the .357 Magnum is really obsolete if you think about it.

Bill Jordan must be rolling over in his grave....LOL.

[OlongJohnson]

Have you read the section in his book on shooting from the hip, and what he recommends in a holster?

Tempus fugit.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Have you read the section in his book on shooting from the hip, and what he recommends in a holster?

Tempus fugit.

I just so happened to re-read my copy the other day. One would do well to remember that that book was first published in 1965, by someone who had BTDT both as a Marine officer in WWII and in the Border Patrol during a time when gunfights were more common than not. I want to say that was just before Jeff Cooper was competing in the Leatherslap competitions in Big Bear, CA, from whence the Modern Technique was born.

There were a lot of things different back then. Also, I suspect that hip shooting works better for a man who is 6'6" tall. Context is everything.

[Malamute]

Bill Jordan must be rolling over in his grave....LOL.

I believe he mentioned he also kept a Smith 59 around handy and liked it.


I just so happened to re-read my copy the other day. One would do well to remember that that book was first published in 1965, by someone who had BTDT both as a Marine officer in WWII and in the Border Patrol during a time when gunfights were more common than not. I want to say that was just before Jeff Cooper was competing in the Leatherslap competitions in Big Bear, CA, from whence the Modern Technique was born.

There were a lot of things different back then. Also, I suspect that hip shooting works better for a man who is 6'6" tall. Context is everything.

Perhaps his height, and/or perhaps he, and some, were actually pretty good at it, through extensive practice or above average coordination. We know at this point that most that try it dont do all that well, with a few standouts that seem to keep the encouragement level up for those that think everyone should be able to do it. Unfortunately, not everyone is a Bill Jordan or Taran Butler.

[willie]

I would not label the .357 Mag obsolete because saying it implies that the cartridge has no little or no utility and places all one's faith in lower velocity rounds coupled with the most modern bullet technology. Keeping the discussion related to concealable self defense type revolvers, let me point out that those chambered for this caliber are designed to withstand "magnum" level pressures and can withstand frequent use of +p and +p+ .38 Spl ammo. Further, the magnum round itself can be loaded up to the hottest levels as well as loaded down a bit. Some may remember that at one time at least one ammo manufacturer(Remington maybe?)sold a midlevel .357 Mag round loaded to lower pressure and velocity. It was touted as an ideal round for short barrel magnums like the 21/2 inch model 19. I discovered that a good .357 Mag compromise is the 110 grain factory round. When stoked with Doc approved projectiles, .357 Mag ammo can be loaded down to achieve performance in short barrel revolvers that might not be reached with 9mm and .38 Spl ammo. My pre-mimed 640-1 is super accurate and for me easily manageable with the 110 grain magnum round. Blast, though, is a bitch. Sometimes I would carry it when tromping around field and stream. It was a good companion.

[OlongJohnson]

I just so happened to re-read my copy the other day. One would do well to remember that that book was first published in 1965, by someone who had BTDT both as a Marine officer in WWII and in the Border Patrol during a time when gunfights were more common than not. I want to say that was just before Jeff Cooper was competing in the Leatherslap competitions in Big Bear, CA, from whence the Modern Technique was born.

There were a lot of things different back then. Also, I suspect that hip shooting works better for a man who is 6'6" tall. Context is everything.

My comment wasn't meant in any way to disrespect the man's legacy. I fully intend to own a set (or four) of stocks named for him one day.

My point was simply that time flies, and we've come a long way. We can certainly learn much from the giants whose shoulders we stand on, but if we don't see farther than they did, we are failing in our responsibilities.

[Inspector71]

[I]
"It was touted as an ideal round for short barrel magnums like the 21/2 inch model 19. I discovered that a good .357 Mag compromise is the 110 grain factory round. When stoked with Doc approved projectiles, .357 Mag ammo can be loaded down to achieve".

Fortunately, I still got a few boxes of the Treasury load in my locker. 110 grain, .38 +P+, about 1,100 FPS out of my revolvers when I carry a "lite" .357 load.

[FNFAN]

My "personal standards" for what I prefer in a defensive round come from use of the .357

I'm happy as a clam with 125 grain jhp's that fly around 1200fps. The Gold Dot 124+p euro-pellet is in that neighborhood and what I prefer to carry. Bonded bullets make a good thing even better!

[Velo Dog]

I wonder how well 9mm does from a 1.87 inch barrel.
9mm can have impressive velocity from a snub nose revolver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YTOV4dYLQE

[Baldanders]

I would not label the .357 Mag obsolete because saying it implies that the cartridge has no little or no utility and places all one's faith in lower velocity rounds coupled with the most modern bullet technology. Keeping the discussion related to concealable self defense type revolvers, let me point out that those chambered for this caliber are designed to withstand "magnum" level pressures and can withstand frequent use of +p and +p+ .38 Spl ammo. Further, the magnum round itself can be loaded up to the hottest levels as well as loaded down a bit. Some may remember that at one time at least one ammo manufacturer(Remington maybe?)sold a midlevel .357 Mag round loaded to lower pressure and velocity. It was touted as an ideal round for short barrel magnums like the 21/2 inch model 19. I discovered that a good .357 Mag compromise is the 110 grain factory round. When stoked with Doc approved projectiles, .357 Mag ammo can be loaded down to achieve performance in short barrel revolvers that might not be reached with 9mm and .38 Spl ammo. My pre-mimed 640-1 is super accurate and for me easily manageable with the 110 grain magnum round. Blast, though, is a bitch. Sometimes I would carry it when tromping around field and stream. It was a good companion.

My experience with my 640 has made me leery of standard power .357 loads with lighter bullets. Shooting 125 grain Remington sjhps out of it is the most painful experience I've had shooting a pistol. 158 grain Fiocchi XTPs are surprisingly mild in comparison, and my current carry load, Critical Duty, is stiffer than the Fiocchi, but still not too bad on felt recoil.

I was carring .38 +p Critical Defense, but I was not impressed with it's penetration in my backyard Redneck Ballistic Testing. It stopped in milk jug #2 (9mm Critical Defense from a compact Springfield did the same) while. 357 Critical Duty stopped in milk jug #4. When I get my next paycheck, I think I will be ordering some .357 "short barrel" Gold Dot. I wouldn't mind a bit less recoil and I think it will probably penetrate just fine.

I would second the idea of a load for .357 that duplicates the awesome 124 grain 9mm +p Gold Dot. Now that I am handloading again, I am tempted to get some 124 grain 9mm Gold Dot bullets and see if I could resize them and load them up in .357 brass.

[Tokarev]

I am tempted to get some 124 grain 9mm Gold Dot bullets and see if I could resize them...

Resize them? They will already be slightly undersize for your Magnum application.


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[willie]

The most violently recoiling load in the 110 to 158 gr range is the 125 gr.
110 is manageable.

[Baldanders]

Resize them? They will already be slightly undersize for your Magnum application.


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Yeah, that was some high quality thinkin'.

I recall an article from Guns and Ammo many years back about using paper patching with undersized bullets, but that seems like way too much work...

The .357 Critical Defense load is loaded about at the 9mm 124 +p Speer level, but I haven't liked the gel penetration figures I've seen for any of the Critical Defense line.

[Baldanders]

The most violently recoiling load in the 110 to 158 gr range is the 125 gr.
110 is manageable.

What brand do you use in those?

[Tokarev]

The .357 Critical Defense load is loaded about at the 9mm 124 +p Speer level, but I haven't liked the gel penetration figures I've seen for any of the Critical Defense line.

Critical Duty 135gr did 15" through clothing. Probably can't get much better from a snubby.


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[5pins]

The Speer 135gr SBGD at 1200fps should compare closely to the 124gr 9mm.

28751

[Baldanders]

Critical Duty 135gr did 15" through clothing. Probably can't get much better from a snubby.


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Just to be clear I was talking about the 125 grain Defense load, I carry the 135 gr Duty load. I don't care for the "reduced penetration" idea that seems baked into the Defense line.

And yeah, looking at the data above, it terms of external ballistics, the differences between the .357 Duty load and a hypothetical .357 "9mm+p" type load are completely negligible.

Despite all this, I think a SAAMI spec for a ".38 Magnum" or ".357 Special" in .357 Mag brass at 9mm para pressure would help with both marketing and development of .357 self-defense loads. It would sure make it easier to recommend. 357 snubby loads if there was a easy term we all agreed on.

[Tokarev]

The Speer 135gr SBGD at 1200fps should compare closely to the 124gr 9mm.

28751I don't know for certain but I believe Speer uses the same Gold Dot bullet in the 38 and 357 loads. It might be pushed a little too fast as a Magnum.

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[Baldanders]

I don't know for certain but I believe Speer uses the same Gold Dot bullet in the 38 and 357 loads. It might be pushed a little too fast as a Magnum.

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Too lazy to check, but I would think you are correct, as online suppliers only show one bullet for sale in the 135 grain weight in .357 in Gold Dots.

[Velo Dog]

I don't know for certain but I believe Speer uses the same Gold Dot bullet in the 38 and 357 loads. It might be pushed a little too fast as a Magnum.

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Same bullet. Performs well at the slightly increased velocity of the .357 Magnum Short Barrel loading

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

[willie]

What brand do you use in those?

Winchester bought at Walmart. I lack information about expansion, penetration.

[Tokarev]

Winchester bought at Walmart. I lack information about expansion, penetration.


7.5" in bare gel and 8.3" after heavy clothing at 1,127 FPS in the American Rifleman test. Probably the same old school bullet used in the Winchester +P+ 110gr load.

Here's a 4" test:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSpAVR8UWY

[xcop]

Winchester bought at Walmart. I lack information about expansion, penetration.

I tested this round as well as the 110+p+ Winchester thru my 2.25in sp101.
357 avg velocity was 1219 for 5 shots. It penetrated 9.5in thru a layer of 14oz denim, a sweatshirt and a thick T shirt. It expanded to .623x .635

Same bullet but in +p+ 38. Same gun and barrier and same block. 1085fps avg penetrated 10.5 inches expansion was .57x.57

So here the extra velocity of the magnum resulted in greater expansion but one full inch less penetration

Clear Ballistics Gel

[Tokarev]

I tested this round as well as the 110+p+ Winchester thru my 2.25in sp101.
357 avg velocity was 1219 for 5 shots. It penetrated 9.5in thru a layer of 14oz denim, a sweatshirt and a thick T shirt. It expanded to .623x .635

Same bullet but in +p+ 38. Same gun and barrier and same block. 1085fps avg penetrated 10.5 inches expansion was .57x.57

So here the extra velocity of the magnum resulted in greater expansion but one full inch of penetration

Clear Ballistics Gel

Slightly lower velocity and a tiny bit less penetration from my LCR with the 110 +P+

Only one round but it was all I had:

https://www.americanrifleman.o...testing-the-357-mag-cartridge/

As in your test, the 357 Magnum version using the same bullet produced a higher velocity that resulted in even less penetration.

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[the Schwartz]

7.5" in bare gel and 8.3" after heavy clothing at 1,127 FPS in the American Rifleman test. Probably the same old school bullet used in the Winchester +P+ 110gr load.

Here's a 4" test:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSpAVR8UWY

If I am not mistaken, the WinchesterUSA brand is the old Winchester Super X ammo line offered decades ago. I am always surprised by how well the stuff performs since it was designed well before the later 'premium' designs (e.g. Federal HSTs, etc.).