Young Female Officer at LGS

[willie]

Today while at the lgs a young female police officer came in and said that she wished to buy a rifle. The clerk showed her his rack of AR's and asked what her preference was. She replied, "I don't know. I don't know anything about guns." He recommended a Stag Arms as a hard service weapon. My heart sank, and I left. What bothers me most is that her sgt or the armorer or her training officer or somebody in the dept had not foreseen that some young officers are not gun savvy and that they need guidance. Instead she came in with her mother. I fear that she may fail to seek qualified training assistance. This young woman was offered a shit rifle for $850 plus tax. She could have bought a Colt for the same or less money through law enforcement channels. I feel bad for her.

[Spartan1980]

Not to be an ass, but why didn't you pull her to the side and offer her some advice? Seems like a great opportunity to help educate someone who needed it more than most.

[HCM]

Today while at the lgs a young female police officer came in and said that she wished to buy a rifle. The clerk showed her his rack of AR's and asked what her preference was. She replied, "I don't know. I don't know anything about guns." He recommended a Stag Arms as a hard service weapon. My heart sank, and I left. What bothers me most is that her sgt or the armorer or her training officer or somebody in the dept had not foreseen that some young officers are not gun savvy and that they need guidance. Instead she came in with her mother. I fear that she may fail to seek qualified training assistance. This young woman was offered a shit rifle for $850 plus tax. She could have bought a Colt for the same or less money through law enforcement channels. I feel bad for her.

First good on her for wantimg to spend her own time and money get a rifle. Most cops are not gun people and you would be surprise how many would rather dump $850 into something else.

Second, the average police man walking into the same gunstore still likely wouldn’t know much about guns but he would never admit it, so again good on her.

IME About 15% are shooters and knowledgeable about guns.

About 70% are competent with their issued or authorized equipment to the level they are trained to or slightly better but don’t have much depth of knowledge outside that lane,

About 15% are clueless and/ or struggling shooters.

This is one of problems with carry what ever you want policies. I’m all for personal rifle programs but some right and left limits need to be set.

Colt would be my choice too but there are worse AR choices than a Stag Arms.

[Magsz]

First good on her for wantimg to spend her own time and money get a rifle. Most cops are not gun people and you would be surprise how many would rather dump $850 into something else.

IME About 15% are shooters and knowledgeable about guns.

About 70% are competent with their issued or authorized equipment to the level they are trained to or slightly better but don’t have much depth of knowledge outside that lane,

About 15% are clueless and/ or struggling shooters.

This is one of problems with carry what ever you want policies. I’m all for personal rifle programs but some right and left limits need to be set.

Bud,

I WISH I could agree with that 15% assessment regarding the percentage that are shooters. Its kind of sad, although I will admit that the job requires a hell of a lot more than just gun handling skills. Having said that, this is what I always tell people: The gun, one of your tools can determine whether or not you ultimately go home should your name get called on that unlucky day...I really do wish it was 15%. :/

Screw it, lets be optimistic together then. :)

[GardoneVT]

Today while at the lgs a young female police officer came in and said that she wished to buy a rifle. The clerk showed her his rack of AR's and asked what her preference was. She replied, "I don't know. I don't know anything about guns." He recommended a Stag Arms as a hard service weapon. My heart sank, and I left. What bothers me most is that her sgt or the armorer or her training officer or somebody in the dept had not foreseen that some young officers are not gun savvy and that they need guidance. Instead she came in with her mother. I fear that she may fail to seek qualified training assistance. This young woman was offered a shit rifle for $850 plus tax. She could have bought a Colt for the same or less money through law enforcement channels. I feel bad for her.

At least she bought a rifle. Many people never come to understand why one matters until it’s too late.

[willie]

Not to be an ass, but why didn't you pull her to the side and offer her some advice? Seems like a great opportunity to help educate someone who needed it more than most.

The clerk and I were talking when she walked up and started the conversation. I could not intervene without intruding. My doing so would have offended the clerk and the owner. The girl did not know me. Otherwise, I would have. Not directly related to your question is this: as I have aged and become an old guy with white hair and unsteady gait, l've noticed that young people like this young lady are less likely to heed any advice that I might give. So in many cases, I hesitate to say much. The owner asks my advice about fudd guns and reloading and gunsmithing. The young guys working there frequently make incorrect statements about AR's. I don't correct them.

[Dave J]

If she gets out and trains with it, any deficiencies are likely to show up pretty quickly.

If she doesn't shoot it, it probably doesn't matter anyway.

The cool thing about an AR is, it's pretty easy to correct stuff that isn't right. I'm sorry she paid more than she should have, but that's not the end of the world. Good on her for getting herself a long gun!

[JAH 3rd]

I worked as a c/o with the NC DOC for 14 years. Although they have upgraded their weapons, during my employment the standard firearms were a Remington 870, Ruger Mini-14, and S&W model 64. You can Google barrels flying off the frame of NC DOC revolvers...true story!

During my time there, many new hires had no experience with firearms whatsoever. This applied to men and women. We had to re-qualify yearly with the above mentioned weapons. Fifty years ago some new hires either had military or law enforcement experience or hunted. Today, lots of new hires have none of that experience. So shooting anything is a something new. I remember the first time I shot a revolver and that left much to be desired. But years of practice paid off.

While with DOC, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to become a certified firearms instructor and participate in yearly re-qualification with the officers. No doubt some shot a firearm once a year, at re-qualification. Others took pride in shooting proficiently.

One war story. After a day at the range, we were returning the firearms to the aresenal. The mini-14s were to have the bolt locked back and no magazine. I saw a bolt forward with no magazine. Pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected.

[jlw]

Today while at the lgs a young female police officer came in and said that she wished to buy a rifle. The clerk showed her his rack of AR's and asked what her preference was. She replied, "I don't know. I don't know anything about guns." He recommended a Stag Arms as a hard service weapon. My heart sank, and I left. What bothers me most is that her sgt or the armorer or her training officer or somebody in the dept had not foreseen that some young officers are not gun savvy and that they need guidance. Instead she came in with her mother. I fear that she may fail to seek qualified training assistance. This young woman was offered a shit rifle for $850 plus tax. She could have bought a Colt for the same or less money through law enforcement channels. I feel bad for her.


Whoa, there.

I'd like to think that my agency is as up to speed on such things at it gets, and we still have individuals who go out on their own and make stupid purchasing decisions such as:

- Funky pistol light for which NOBODY makes a duty holster.
- Some Turkish made crap shotgun even AFTER said purchaser was in MY shotgun class and was told what I would approve
- Sightmark optic
- assortment of crazy accessories

[DAVE_M]

Whoa, there.

I'd like to think that my agency is as up to speed on such things at it gets, and we still have individuals who go out on their own and make stupid purchasing decisions such as:

- Funky pistol light for which NOBODY makes a duty holster.
- Some Turkish made crap shotgun even AFTER said purchaser was in MY shotgun class and was told what I would approve
- Sightmark optic
- assortment of crazy accessories

This x10,000,000

Not all LE are gun guys (or gals).

I know Veteran LE and SWAT guys that carry micro guns off duty and think the M&P 15 is duty quality. Unless you ARE the armorer for the agency, I don't expect anyone to know that a Noveske is superior to an Anderson.

[03RN]

Stag rifles aren't horrible. If it works, it works.

The training she gets with it will be more important.

[SC_Dave]

I guess there is good and bad in everything. But, I've had a Stag Arms for years that has close to 10K rounds through it without a hiccup. This includes 2 two day training classes with 1200 rounds each. :confused:

[Jay Cunningham]

Not to be an ass, but why didn't you pull her to the side and offer her some advice? Seems like a great opportunity to help educate someone who needed it more than most.

For every one person who is appreciative of this, twenty will tell you to screw off.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

[WobblyPossum]

I'll happily give advice to anyone who asks for it but I won't butt in to sales conversations between customers and sales folks at the store. I believe it's not my place to do so. I don't work at the store and I don't think it's right for me to cost them business or damage their relationship with a customer.

[DAVE_M]

I'll happily give advice to anyone who asks for it but I won't butt in to sales conversations between customers and sales folks at the store. I believe it's not my place to do so. I don't work at the store and I don't think it's right for me to cost them business or damage their relationship with a customer.

This.

I've never butted into a LGS conversation that I wasn't asked to be a part of. People have emotional investments in certain objects and methods. The last time I was in a LGS and was asked a question in regards to the conversation, it ended with another customer becoming angry and leaving. My friend, the manager of the LGS, wasn't happy, but understood that they asked ME and not him.

[Caesar]

Although it’s likely a total stranger will rebuff my comments, in the right situation I’d offer my thoughts about gun selection. The worst they can do is tell you to piss off but it’s worth a try. Especially, if you hear the salesman misleading someone that doesn’t know better. If they choose not to take your advice, that’s on them.

When my 16 yr old daughter leaves the house with friends, i pelt her with a list of safety tips. She’ll roll her eyes and repeats “I know, Dad” but it doesn’t mean I’ll stop. If not me, then who? Gun advice left to the masses equals record Hi Point sales.

[Mark D]

I'm just happy she wanted a rifle and was committed enough to spend her own coin. Hopefully she trains with it, and it provides good service.

At my local gun stores there's some horrendous advice given to customers on occasion. But I bite my tongue unless someone specifically asks me a question.

[Cheap Shot]

The clerk and I were talking when she walked up and started the conversation. I could not intervene without intruding. My doing so would have offended the clerk and the owner. The girl did not know me. Otherwise, I would have. Not directly related to your question is this: as I have aged and become an old guy with white hair and unsteady gait, l've noticed that young people like this young lady are less likely to heed any advice that I might give. So in many cases, I hesitate to say much. The owner asks my advice about fudd guns and reloading and gunsmithing. The young guys working there frequently make incorrect statements about AR's. I don't correct them.

Much wisdom here.

Its enough for now that she's started her journey.

[JRB]

These cases are not always as black and white as they may seem.

I believe it would not have been an offense to agree that a Stag Arms is a good recommendation, but as a sworn officer, she should check with her armorer for a list of approved duty rifles before making a final decision - and that said local store would be happy to source anything she'd care to order that's on her dept's approved-for-duty list.
That could easily lead to a recommendation on a duty carbine class beyond what her dept offers, dept approved optic (if any) etc.

Stag arms or not, I'm glad there's one more officer out there that has a rifle available if she absolutely needs a rifle.

[Shoresy]

Second, the average police man walking into the same gunstore still likely wouldn’t know much about guns but he would never admit it, so again good on her.


It takes a lot for most folks to set aside ego and utter the words "I don't know what I don't know, can you help me?" I applaud her for doing so, and will echo the sentiment that while Stag might not be the first choice, she could do a lot worse.

Setting aside ego and making the investment are at least movement in the right direction. Just my two cents.

[BehindBlueI's]

and think the M&P 15 is duty quality.

All of our rifles, personal or issued, have to go through an armorer's inspection. They've caught some issues with M&P Sports out of the box and they were usually simple issues to resolve. Afterward they've been just fine for our uses.

I've got a M&P (non-sport) and it shoots as well as my Colt in my hands.

So, to add to this:

1) Offering unsolicited advise, absent an immediate safety issue, is not something I'd recommend. Particularly in this context.
2) Patrol rifles honestly don't have that hard of a life, round-count wise. If it'll survive in the temperature swings and bouncing around in a trunk or rack, it'll probably do just fine. Given the distances domestic LE can realistically identify a threat and engage with non-magnified optics, the difference between a 1 MOA and 3 MOA rifle is negligible.
3) If she gets in to it, she's at least got a training rifle to beat on once she gets a "nice" one.

[Nocturnalis Discipulo]

All of our rifles, personal or issued, have to go through an armorer's inspection. They've caught some issues with M&P Sports out of the box and they were usually simple issues to resolve. Afterward they've been just fine for our uses.

I've got a M&P (non-sport) and it shoots as well as my Colt in my hands.

So, to add to this:

1) Offering unsolicited advise, absent an immediate safety issue, is not something I'd recommend. Particularly in this context.
2) Patrol rifles honestly don't have that hard of a life, round-count wise. If it'll survive in the temperature swings and bouncing around in a trunk or rack, it'll probably do just fine. Given the distances domestic LE can realistically identify a threat and engage with non-magnified optics, the difference between a 1 MOA and 3 MOA rifle is negligible.
3) If she gets in to it, she's at least got a training rifle to beat on once she gets a "nice" one.

I think these are excellent points. Does anyone know if Colt or BCM offer Blue Label type programs to help get their rifles in the hands of police officers? I would feel less hesitation offering unsolicited advice when I can spend less money on a nicer product.

[DAVE_M]

I think these are excellent points. Does anyone know if Colt or BCM offer Blue Label type programs to help get their rifles in the hands of police officers? I would feel less hesitation offering unsolicited advice when I can spend less money on a nicer product.

I'm unsure if they do directly, but I know of a few shops that offer LE/Mil pricing for DD.

[Spartan1980]

The clerk and I were talking when she walked up and started the conversation. I could not intervene without intruding. My doing so would have offended the clerk and the owner. The girl did not know me. Otherwise, I would have. Not directly related to your question is this: as I have aged and become an old guy with white hair and unsteady gait, l've noticed that young people like this young lady are less likely to heed any advice that I might give. So in many cases, I hesitate to say much. The owner asks my advice about fudd guns and reloading and gunsmithing. The young guys working there frequently make incorrect statements about AR's. I don't correct them.

Understood. Like others the fact that she bought a STAG doesn't give me a lot of heartburn, but at that price I'd rather have seen her in a Ruger or M&P15 at least. I'm in the "at least she bought one" boat.

[HCM]

Understood. Like others the fact that she bought a STAG doesn't give me a lot of heartburn, but at that price I'd rather have seen her in a Ruger or M&P15 at least. I'm in the "at least she bought one" boat.

Which Ruger ? The Ruger piston AR is decent but at nearly 2x the cost of the stag plus the weight and recoil penalties associated with all piston ARs.

The Ruger 556 is a budget AR with inconsistent QC - great if you get a good one but they are a crapshoot. Not an acceptable duty grade gun.

The standard M&P 15 is a good gun and normally duty grade. The only real negative is you can buy a Colt for the same price if you shop around.

The M&P sport / sport 2 is the best of the budget rifles out there in the $500 range, still not optimal compared to a 6920 but the minimum I would be ok with for duty with a good armored inspection.

[Spartan1980]

Which Ruger ? The Ruger piston AR is decent but at nearly 2x the cost of the stag plus the weight and recoil penalties associated with all piston ARs.

The Ruger 556 is a budget AR with inconsistent QC - great if you get a good one but they are a crapshoot. Not an acceptable duty grade gun.

The standard M&P 15 is a good gun and normally duty grade. The only real negative is you can buy a Colt for the same price if you shop around.

The M&P sport / sport 2 is the best of the budget rifles out there in the $500 range, still not optimal compared to a 6920 but the minimum I would be ok with for duty with a good armored inspection.


Ditto, same here. I was referring to the base Ruger, but I had no idea their piston gun had gone up that much as I haven't really looked at them since they came out. I'm not a huge fan of piston ARs anyway as I think they are totally unnecessary and have more failure points. I know the Ruger isn't a Larue, BCM, or DD, but it would be fine if it were proven to be reliable, the specs are good enough for me if I were a new LEO on a budget. I'd put an Aimpoint PRO on it and carry it. Besides, I know Ruger would make it right if it had issues, especially with some departmental letterhead involved.

[HCM]

[/U][/B]

Ditto, same here. I was referring to the base Ruger, but I had no idea their piston gun had gone up that much as I haven't really looked at them since they came out. I'm not a huge fan of piston ARs anyway as I think they are totally unnecessary and have more failure points. I know the Ruger isn't a Larue, BCM, or DD, but it would be fine if it were proven to be reliable, the specs are good enough for me if I were a new LEO on a budget. I'd put an Aimpoint PRO on it and carry it. Besides, I know Ruger would make it right if it had issues, especially with some departmental letterhead involved.

Armorers inspections are important but mostly cover things like proper assembly, staking and obvious defects. However, all parts are not created equal in terms of materials.

Ruger’s piston gun is excellent. The AR 556 is the opposite. They have enough problems that if I were an Armorer /rangemaster for a small Department I would not want to be bothered dealing with them.

On a hard budget, S&W Sport 2.

There are a whole slew of rifles that are decent but in the same price range as a Colt 6920 so why not get a 6920 or variation there of ? These range from the standard S&W M&P, Stag Arms and the SIG M400 to the excellent LMT. LMT is a great rifle maybe better than current Colts but priced above a Colt it just doesn’t make sense.

Another issue is what I call the “bait and switch” rifles. Companies like Rock River and Bushmaster which made rifles to TDP spec with full QC checks for FED GOV/DOJ and TX DPS contracts respectively but make commercial guns to a lower standard with batch test only QC. These companies could make good rifles but choose not to in order to increase profit. Remington /DPMS / and current Bushmaster fall into this category as well. I’ve seen some GOV contract select fire R4s and it’s hard to reconcile the high quality with the junk they push on the commercial side.

LaRue and DD are Boutique brands. So is Hodge and Noveske though I’m a fan of both but you are paying for the name.

Duty grade guns with good value - Colt, BCM, SIONICS, SOLGW, certain S&W M&P (non sport) certain FN.

FN is funny as they have a gun at 6920 price with lower QC and sub TDP spec and they have a couple models which are high QC and better than TDP Spec.

The problem with the Ruger 556 is a rifle for duty use needs to be right when you need it, Ruger making it right for your heirs after the fact is unacceptable.

BBI is right though regarding most patrol rifles not leading hard lives. They should lead hard lives in training to higher levels of skill, but the reality is most don’t.

[Spartan1980]

Armorers inspections are important but mostly cover things like proper assembly, staking and obvious defects. However, all parts are not created equal in terms of materials.

Ruger’s piston gun is excellent. The AR 556 is the opposite. They have enough problems that if I were an Armorer /rangemaster for a small Department I would not want to be bothered dealing with them.

On a hard budget, S&W Sport 2.

There are a whole slew of rifles that are decent but in the same price range as a Colt 6920 so why not get a 6920 or variation there of ? These range from the standard S&W M&P, Stag Arms and the SIG M400 to the excellent LMT. LMT is a great rifle maybe better than current Colts but priced above a Colt it just doesn’t make sense.

Another issue is what I call the “bait and switch” rifles. Companies like Rock River and Bushmaster which made rifles to TDP spec with full QC checks for FED GOV/DOJ and TX DPS contracts respectively but make commercial guns to a lower standard with batch test only QC. These companies could make good rifles but choose not to in order to increase profit. Remington /DPMS / and current Bushmaster fall into this category as well. I’ve seen some GOV contract select fire R4s and it’s hard to reconcile the high quality with the junk they push on the commercial side.

LaRue and DD are Boutique brands. So is Hodge and Noveske though I’m a fan of both but you are paying for the name.

Duty grade guns with good value - Colt, BCM, SIONICS, SOLGW, certain S&W M&P (non sport) certain FN.

FN is funny as they have a gun at 6920 price with lower QC and sub TDP spec and they have a couple models which are high QC and better than TDP Spec.

The problem with the Ruger 556 is a rifle for duty use needs to be right when you need it, Ruger making it right for your heirs after the fact is unacceptable.

BBI is right though regarding most patrol rifles not leading hard lives. They should lead hard lives in training to higher levels of skill, but the reality is most don’t.

When I said "proven to be reliable" I was thinking something along the lines of a 2000 round challenge like is popular on this site for pistols BEFORE carry.

So is it that Ruger just doesn't do QC anymore? This is pretty disappointing because they use a cold hammer forged 4140 barrel, 9310 bolt, etc. Not top tier but certainly serviceable.

[HCM]

When I said "proven to be reliable" I was thinking something along the lines of a 2000 round challenge like is popular on this site for pistols BEFORE carry.

So is it that Ruger just doesn't do QC anymore? This is pretty disappointing because they use a cold hammer forged 4140 barrel, 9310 bolt, etc. Not top tier but certainly serviceable.

Yeah, a 2000 round challenge isn’t likely for your average LEO unless they are in a special unit or shoot as a hobby.

Ruger’s QC in general has been spotty for a while now. Not just on the 556, but revolvers and a few other guns.

[DAVE_M]

When I said "proven to be reliable" I was thinking something along the lines of a 2000 round challenge like is popular on this site for pistols BEFORE carry.

So is it that Ruger just doesn't do QC anymore? This is pretty disappointing because they use a cold hammer forged 4140 barrel, 9310 bolt, etc. Not top tier but certainly serviceable.

The Ruger 556 is borderline hobby grade. It's a step above the common rifles from PSA and Anderson. I would never trust one in any official capacity. If you think it's quality just because they use XYZ steel in their parts, I'd have to ask if you would trust an Anderson AR-15 with the same alloys to go to war. I wouldn't.

Better QA/QC is costly. There is a reason the Ruger comes in at a third the cost of most "duty grade" AR rifles.

[PearTree]

It's my understanding Colt does but the discount is through their distributors. To the best of my knowledge BCM does not, however some retailers (G&R etc) offer discounts for them for first responders. Sionics offers a nice discount to LEO's and that is the company I steer everyone to. They are first class and have lots of agencies using their weapons.
I think these are excellent points. Does anyone know if Colt or BCM offer Blue Label type programs to help get their rifles in the hands of police officers? I would feel less hesitation offering unsolicited advice when I can spend less money on a nicer product.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[tsf1225]

Not trying to be a tough guy here (I have 3 girls of my own) but there is no reason to be an ignorant consumer nowadays. With 10-15 minutes on the internet she could have narrowed down it down to a list of some solid choices which more than likely would have pointed in the 6920 direction.

[Wheeler]

Not trying to be a tough guy here (I have 3 girls of my own) but there is no reason to be an ignorant consumer nowadays. With 10-15 minutes on the internet she could have narrowed down it down to a list of some solid choices which more than likely would have pointed in the 6920 direction.

If only one knew which sources were valid in that 10-15 minutes of internet...

[JAD]

It's not bad to keep in mind that the OP was in another person's place of business. I am not thinking that the LGS was putting the young officer's life at risk by selling her a Stag rather than a Colt, and barring that if the LGS wants to make more profit by pushing Stag over alternatives it's literally their business.

[Mark D]

Another issue is what I call the “bait and switch” rifles. Companies like Rock River and Bushmaster which made rifles to TDP spec with full QC checks for FED GOV/DOJ and TX DPS contracts respectively but make commercial guns to a lower standard with batch test only QC. These companies could make good rifles but choose not to in order to increase profit. Remington /DPMS / and current Bushmaster fall into this category as well. I’ve seen some GOV contract select fire R4s and it’s hard to reconcile the high quality with the junk they push on the commercial side.


Interesting. I was always curious why some squared away agencies sourced equipment from Bushmaster, etc. I did not realize that BM and RR manufacture different tier rifles for different clients.

[willie]

Texas bought Bushmasters and supposedly these were made to a higher spec. My opinion is that nobody knows and probably won't know the spec details. This deal was struck between a well known l.e. supply house and the state. My mantra has become buy a real Colt and be done with it if you are serious about AR's.

[DAVE_M]

Texas bought Bushmasters and supposedly these were made to a higher spec. My opinion is that nobody knows and probably won't know the spec details. This deal was struck between a well known l.e. supply house and the state. My mantra has become buy a real Colt and be done with it if you are serious about AR's.

Colt has had the same QC issues. Don't buy something, because of the name.

[GardoneVT]

If only one knew which sources were valid in that 10-15 minutes of internet...

Indeed. I’ve heard too many people still say the Beretta 92 will crack a slide ,based on what they read on hocuspocus/operatorblog.net.

[willie]

Colt has had the same QC issues. Don't buy something, because of the name.

Colt owns what's called a technical data package for producing the AR/M16/M4 line of rifles. The package is intellectual property that guides all phases of manufacturing, parts spec, and quality control for these weapons. I'm sure that I left out other aspects. This package gives Colt the capability to manufacture giant numbers of these rifles that show little variance from one to the other. If Bushmaster leased this package and paid royalties to Colt and followed all guidelines when making their upper tier product, then their weapons were probably the equal to Colt. I'm guessing and would bet that they did not pay royalties for the package.

When buying a Colt AR, the purchaser is getting more than a name. He's receiving a rifle made according to the famous technical data package. Of course some lemons will appear. Current thought has been that Colt will mass produce fewer lemons than will others. Yes, there are nicely made custom AR's. I wish that I had one. If the guys who make these had to crank out 10,000 or 20,000 or 50,000, then observers would note that these were no longer custom rifles made one at a time. They would be just one more mass produced brand with a truck load of defective units. Colt can turn out its rifle product by running day and night for years and still maintain acceptable quality control.

About the idea of paying for a name, many think that the difference between Beretta 92's and Taurus clones is the name. I've heard this for years. It's simply not true. The same applies to AR's.

[Totem Polar]

If only one knew which sources were valid in that 10-15 minutes of internet...

This is especially true of AR-15 info. Seriously: I’ve been around this place long enough that it is probably clear that I have a modicum of hangun knowledge and experience. I may not be Darryl Bolke when it comes to wheelies, or Tamara Keel when it comes to history, but I can ferret out what’s what in the handgun world just fine.

Researching the AR was a goddamn nightmare. Way too much white noise: to much for the layperson to filter. I actually walked away from the idea of an AR until I went to PeP3 and got to sit in on Mike Centola’s AR overview module. I literally needed a vetted expert to use as a filter, and I’m a definite gun guy, by any objective standard.

[Coyotesfan97]

If only one knew which sources were valid in that 10-15 minutes of internet...

For her it would’ve been quicker to check the rifle policy for approved AR15s or spend 10-15 minutes talking to range personnel.

[Mark D]

This is especially true of AR-15 info....Researching the AR was a goddamn nightmare. Way too much white noise: to much for the layperson to filter. .

Agreed. Recently I had the urge to upgrade my carbine and it took a boatload of reading, mainly of old P-F threads, to reach what I think is an informed decision (Hint: Colt). For a layperson, who doesn't have the interest or time to spend hours reading and vetting, it could be totally overwhelming.

[DAVE_M]

Colt owns what's called a technical data package for producing the AR/M16/M4 line of rifles. The package is intellectual property that guides all phases of manufacturing, parts spec, and quality control for these weapons. I'm sure that I left out other aspects. This package gives Colt the capability to manufacture giant numbers of these rifles that show little variance from one to the other. If Bushmaster leased this package and paid royalties to Colt and followed all guidelines when making their upper tier product, then their weapons were probably the equal to Colt. I'm guessing and would bet that they did not pay royalties for the package.

When buying a Colt AR, the purchaser is getting more than a name. He's receiving a rifle made according to the famous technical data package. Of course some lemons will appear. Current thought has been that Colt will mass produce fewer lemons than will others. Yes, there are nicely made custom AR's. I wish that I had one. If the guys who make these had to crank out 10,000 or 20,000 or 50,000, then observers would note that these were no longer custom rifles made one at a time. They would be just one more mass produced brand with a truck load of defective units. Colt can turn out its rifle product by running day and night for years and still maintain acceptable quality control.

About the idea of paying for a name, many think that the difference between Beretta 92's and Taurus clones is the name. I've heard this for years. It's simply not true. The same applies to AR's.

Until you buy a Colt Expanse, which is junk.

[HCM]

Texas bought Bushmasters and supposedly these were made to a higher spec. My opinion is that nobody knows and probably won't know the spec details. This deal was struck between a well known l.e. supply house and the state. My mantra has become buy a real Colt and be done with it if you are serious about AR's.

The Texas State Contract guns were made to TDP spec as required by the contract.

Were the subsequent "Texas Edition" bushmasters sold commercially made to TDP spec - The ones I've seen appeared to be which differentiates them from Bushmaster's commercial guns.

[willie]

The last big batch of Expanses were made in Texas using Colt parts. I enjoyed several long conversations with the gentleman who oversaw the operation. He had many years experience in the AR industry. He was
knowledgeable. I learned a lot. My opinion is that the later Expanses are ok guns for hobby use. I have an Expanse upper on a S&W lower. I shoot dirt clods and stumps and hogs with it. I wish that I were shooting
these targets with a Colt 6920, but the truth is that neither I nor anyone else could tell the diference between the two when they are used for this purpose. So how did a gun snob like me end up with this hybrid? I ain't saying.

[Drang]

Not trying to be a tough guy here (I have 3 girls of my own) but there is no reason to be an ignorant consumer nowadays. With 10-15 minutes on the internet she could have narrowed down it down to a list of some solid choices which more than likely would have pointed in the 6920 direction.

Except if she was looking for info on ARs, she would have wound up on ARFCOM, where the signal to noise ratio is far, far lower than it is here. Now, I haven't been to ARFCOM in years, and I never searched "What is the best off-the-rack duty rifle?" there, so I don't know, but I'm not so sure she would have arrived at the answer "Colt 6972" there in 10-15 minutes.

[MistWolf]

The Texas State Contract guns were made to TDP spec as required by the contract.

That would be Bushmaster's TDP. Not Colt's.

[lwt16]

Unless I totally missed in while reading the responses, I'm wondering if this purchase that the young officer made was for her father or boyfriend as a present. It sure does sound like she was just finding an AR without much thought into it as far as it being part of her work gear.

Our newer crop of officers just aren't that "into" guns nor are they likely to spend coin on gear like that for work. The latest phone? Oh yeah, they all have that and when I am sitting with them in the court waiting room, they are all buried in their respective phones. Years ago, we sat that room and busted each other's chops and gossiped......and we had a blast interacting with each other and often, the court officers would have to come out there and quieten us down as the judges would complain. It was lively times around a bunch of us cops on no sleep and full of hateful comments to each other. Good times.

Now, it is so quiet you can hear a pin drop in the waiting room.

I have assembled several ARs for officers here and always offer them a follow up to check the build once they have some rounds through them. They never follow up because they never shoot them. I ask them if they are ready for me to look it over and they sheepishly admit "Eh, I haven't had a chance to shoot it much." That's the reality of cops and the majority of them just aren't shooters like most of the cops on PF.

As far as Ruger ARs..........after dismal results with Bushmasters (made locally), we pulled all of them and went to Rugers since the local gun shop offered such a smoking deal. They were crapping out at real low round counts (gas block stuff) and they immediately pulled all of them off the streets. They sent out an email that they were all being replaced by.......wait for it......more Bushmasters.

Several have been sent back (again, Remington is right here in town so they simply drove them over there) due to out of spec lowers and the take down pins being impossible to remove without a hammer and punch. There have been other issues with dead triggers and whatnot. I (since I am older than dirt) still have my original Colt pencil barrel carbine with the "LE ONLY" Clinton era stamping on the lower. I have thousands of rounds through it with only gas ring replacement done at my own expense since our armorer didn't know what the gas ring check was and that my BCG would fail it every time.

Typically, our rifles will see less than 100 rounds per year per copy. Mine, as well as a handful of other shooters here, will see much more than that. The department will give me 240 rounds per year to practice with another 50 for a qual once a year. Most won't take them up on the 240 rounds for practice. I usually shoot 3-4 hundred more per year with mine and shoot about the same amount in my personal ARs (couple of Anderson lower builds with PSA/Delton parts and one build on a Spikes lower/upper with BCM gear). I run them as hard as I can afford to and aside from breaking gas rings, mine have all been good to go.

I still kind of think this officer in question was purchasing this for someone else but if she is using it at work, she had better be in policy. We don't allow any personal weapons other than BUGs. No optics on rifles period (except SWAT on their Sig piston builds) and no dots on pistols. This won't change anytime soon as the admin are not "gun types".

Just opinion and rambling by an old cop that sees the younger ones aren't shooters. And they all struggle at our simplistic quals.

Regards.

[rob_s]

Not to be an ass, but why didn't you pull her to the side and offer her some advice? Seems like a great opportunity to help educate someone who needed it more than most.

Think about this from the perspective of the other two parties.

Party A is the clerk. He's trying to sell. Maybe he doesn't even care if he sells or not. Maybe he knows something, maybe he doesn't. maybe Stag is the best gun he has in the rack. No matter what, he works at a gunshop and therefore likely thinks he knows at least close to everything, if not actually everything. The reaction he gives from random "gun dude" on the other side of the counter is not likely to be positive, nor will it turn out constructive.

Party B is the female officer. Most likely, in her mind, the guy behind the counter knows as much as he thinks he does. Now she's got random gun nerd on her side of the counter trying to tell her differently. Depending on her relative attractiveness this could be seen as all kinds of things, not likely any of them good.

Now imagine you are at a gun shop, trying to buy your favored brand of AR. you and the seller agree on everything, and some random gun dude/nerd comes ambling up to tell you you're doing it wrong.

[HCountyGuy]

Yeah the only way I can think of interjecting working out semi-positively is if the clerk is giving horribly misguided advice and parroting off some BS from his last tactical fantasy camp carbine class.

At that point if you’re truly knowledgeable and can articulate why anyone should listen to you, you could attempt to politely insert yourself as follows:

“Excuse me, sorry I couldn’t help but overhear your predicament and wanted to add an experienced opinion to the matter. I’m so and so and based upon my experience (in such an instance you’re unlikely to be listened to unless you are/were MIL/LEO) I’ve had particular success with model A from brand X.”

You can go on to discuss the finer details if your intrusion is not met with hostility and you don’t come off as just another shop-dweller who watches too many Yeager or Zero vids.

[HCM]

That would be Bushmaster's TDP. Not Colt's.

When TX DPS wrote their requirements they just copied the TDP requirements. So it’s as close to TDP as Bushmaster is gonna get.

The TX DPS Carbine requirement is on line if you care to search for it.

If you were to plug the DPS Guns into Rob S.’s chart the DPS gun will check a whole bunch of boxes the commercial Bushmasters don’t. For example the castle nuts are staked not Loctited on, actual 5.56 chambers etc.

[Mark D]

I know most of the guys behind the counter at the local gun stores. They're nice fellas, and a select few of them even know some good info.

That said, I will only interject into their sales conversation when they're giving good advice ("get a Glock 9mm") and the customer is resistant ("but my buddy said his XD 40 is better"). At those times I might provide some subtle support for the clerk.

Otherwise, I let them do their thing.

[Poconnor]

Even worse are Departments buying junk. A local department bought Sig 1911s . It made me throw up in my mouth

[MistWolf]

When TX DPS wrote their requirements they just copied the TDP requirements. So it’s as close to TDP as Bushmaster is gonna get.

Short version- Texas DPS cannot legally distribute Colt's TDP without permission from Colt.

[HCM]

Short version- Texas DPS cannot legally distribute Colt's TDP without permission from Colt.

Whatever.

[Jeff22]

I feel very fortunate.

I started in 1981. At that time there were three of us on the PD who were "into" guns. One started the local IPSC club and was Section Coordinator for a while. He had run a gunshop and was a gunsmith before being a cop.

But that was about it. Very few other cops I knew had interest or ever shot in practice.

Fast forward nearly 40 years (!!!) and I now work with almost a dozen (between two different agencies) who are interested and moderately knowledgeable and who even shoot in practice on a semi-regular basis . . .

(Just because somebody went to a instructor class or an armorer class doesn't necessarily mean they know anything. It just means that they had the opportunity to begin the learning process --- it doesn't mean that they actually progressed in the pursuit of knowledge)

[Reid Henrichs]

Willie,

I get what you are saying. I don't think there is anyone here who has not been in the gun store and heard ridiculousness from behind the counter or from another patron in the store. $800+ for a rifle these days will get you in the ballpark of a Colt or other quality manufacturer.

There isn't anything wrong with Stag. I have yet to see one crap out or have any issues in classes (1000-2000 rounds over 2-4 days) Yet it would not be my first choice when given the alternatives in the price point you mentioned that are available right now. I just picked up a used but never fired 6920 for $740 a few weeks back. (I checked all the internals before buying.)

From my observations shooting and as a teacher, if I had five good shooters, each using a different brand quality rifle to include Stag, all firing quality ammo at 100 yards from field positions, one would hardly notice the difference in performance. I do not know anyone who can shoot past the capability of their rifle, and I shoot with some of the best, many of whom are nationally ranked.

If a person can hold 2 MOA with iron sights or a combat optic from field positions consistently, then he/she needs to go to Perry and win some matches.

That lady can gain a lot of knowledge and proficiency with that rifle. And she can most certainly use it to defend herself and her fellow officers after some training.

End result, another citizen with an AR-15, provided she gets training and good is a net positive to our society and way of life.