Out of curiosity - training question

[Erick Gelhaus]

What are one or two areas of law enforcement that you see a training void in? In other words, if you had access to the training budget and competent, experienced course creators, what training that doesn't exist today would you want to see developed and pushed out to the profession?

[Trooper224]

We could go on and on about all the usual suspects: firearms, report writing, driving, defense tactics, etc. However, the real deficiencies I see in new officers involve a lack of critical thinking and interpersonal communication skills. In other words, being able to think on your feet, analyze your way through a situation and being able to effectively communicate ln a face to face environment with other human beings. Everyone coming into LE work should have already learned these life skills as a part of growing up. If they haven't done so by the time they put on a badge, I don't know how to give a crash course in these subjects. My time as an instructor was long ago and I saw it beginning back then, it's even worse now.

[MI Law]

I'm not sure if you are looking for individual departments or LE as whole, but I'll answer for my PD.

We need realistic force-on-force training that covers the whole level spectrum of UOF. In my perfect world, each scenario would have the officer(s) in full sim protective gear with a sim version of each weapon - not just equipment based on what the scenario will need. The actors would follow the lesson plan/script and not make it up as they go. Some scenarios will end in a shooting, some will end in a fight, and some will end with compliance if the officers act reasonably. Building searches, traffic stops (all kinds), disorderly person calls, domestics, alarms, every type of call we respond to will be scenarios.

[TGS]

My agency does an excellent job of this, but I would say medical training.

There's no reason I should be running into cops that don't actually know/have practice on how to apply a tourniquet, chest seal, or pack a wound. From what I've seen, if they even get it (many still don't), then the training is rudimentary to the level of being a "paper tiger"....as in, they get a TQ passed out at rollcall, a 5 minute speech, and then go on shift. Command staff pats themselves on the back, declares it a win, and the officers are still under-prepared.

To that end, I don't necessarily like being one to complain without putting my money where my mouth is. One of the things I was doing on my own time at my last assignment was teaching free B-Con/Intro-to-MARCH classes about 4 hours in length with an emphasis on hands-on skills developments well in excess of any commercial, non-3 letter training I've personally attended or witnessed. I don't have a lot of time at my current assignment to keep it up like I was before (6-7 day workweeks now), but if there's a bunch of LEOs in NoVA that are reading this and need the training then I will gladly take leave for a day and get you some training and certificates to put on file.

[Hideeho]

We could go on and on about all the usual suspects: firearms, report writing, driving, defense tactics, etc. However, the real deficiencies I see in new officers involve a lack of critical thinking and interpersonal communication skills. In other words, being able to think on your feet, analyze your way through a situation and being able to effectively communicate ln a face to face environment with other human beings. Everyone coming into LE work should have already learned these life skills as a part of growing up. If they haven't done so by the time they put on a badge, I don't know how to give a crash course in these subjects. My time as an instructor was long ago and I saw it beginning back then, it's even worse now.

Critical thinking is so important. The people often served by law enforcement lack critical thinking/problem solving skills. Things go bad when nobody in the room has the skill.

[KeeFus]

Medical (tourniquets and such), CQB, clearing houses/buildings, and advanced weapon skills. The last two would be using SIMS.

Simunition loves their conversion kits...got a quote today for $501/pistol. Getting a quote tomorrow from Glock for their FOF G17.

I was in Shoot House Instructor class all weekend and saw the immediate need for more training for my Department...we will see how it goes. IMHO, SIMS is where it’s at for stress inoculation.

[TGS]

Medical (tourniquets and such), CQB, clearing houses/buildings, and advanced weapon skills. The last two would be using SIMS.

Simunition loves their conversion kits...got a quote today for $501/pistol. Getting a quote tomorrow from Glock for their FOF G17.

I was in Shoot House Instructor class all weekend and saw the immediate need for more training for my Department...we will see how it goes. IMHO, SIMS is where it’s at for stress inoculation.

FWIW, our G19M T's are great. They function superbly well.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Adding onto the other themes the previous gents gave, I’d like to see more, “mock scenes,” with good FOF actors used. Not even necessarily scenarios that end/incorporate a UOF, but ones that require multiple suspect management, and quick verbal wit.

The younger generation spends too much time involved in digital interaction and not enough participating in actual social intercourse.

Mock scenes, if executed well, can have as much impact as a real-world scenario, without the high stakes. If everyone takes their role seriously, it can be a powerful laboratory.


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[tusk212]

Honestly, the last couple hires we've had that were younger (22-24 year olds) simply could not speak effectively to people. I think accurate scenario training could remedy some of that.

[AMC]

While I agree with the need for improvement noted in the above areas referenced by our LE compatriots, I think Angus was asking about skills training NOT currently part of regular LE curriculum. If so, that's a big question. Ten years ago I would have said TCCC training focused on LE First Responders...but that training is available many places now. Correct me if I'm wrong, Angus...but you seem to be asking what NEW skills we in LE need to develop?

[txdpd]

Leadership.

Most of the actual police work being done is in spite of the leadership management that the officers work under. There will always be budget and manpower constraints to training, but departments with good leadership rarely have poorly trained officers out on the streets. Good leaders don't makes officers jump through hoops of fire to get good training, call it common sense or "vision" but they generally understand that bad things can happen on their watch, and the need to be prepared for the unknown.

[BehindBlueI's]

Case law and scene management. Especially among rookies. Being assertive in clearing a crime scene, separating witnesses, maintaining a perimeter, preserving evidence, etc.

Getting evidence is great, making case law about how you did it after the suppression is not. And it's a moving target. Case law evolves continuously. Just look at warrantless searches of cell phones. Not just a rookie problem, especially with technology "searches".

I think my dept does a great job on the firearms, use of force, scenario training, etc. We've got an *excellent* outdoor range facility and tac bays. If I were Chief for a Day (likely longer than my real tenure would be) I'd like to see more Simunition stuff with real pain feedback again, and a return of something like FATS. I'm sure technology has advanced and made whatever the new simulation bays even more betterer.

[BehindBlueI's]

Leadership.

Most of the actual police work being done is in spite of the leadership management that the officers work under.

I have to say my dept does attempt this. We've got a "leadership academy" were nationally recognized experts (Bill Westfall, for example) come and present. The reading material for the promotion process includes leadership books, etc. When officers are evaluated, they also anonymously evaluate their immediate supervisor. It's not perfect. It's a lot more than most places do, though.

[Kan S LaTrans]

I know that many departments have implemented, are trying to implement, and are developing Active Shooter Response plans. My former department had the budget, and it had the in-house expertise for the curriculum development...but as the wheels of justice move slowly, more slowly moves the wheels of progress in the larger departments because there are SO many levels of command that have to put their stamp of approval on it, and make sure they get their name on it (political hacks above the rank of lieutenant), while simultaneously covering their asses in case of program failure. So, implementation beyond the curriculum and theory phase (the book learning), and thus the implementation of the actual in-service FOF and UOF phase was slower than cold molasses.

So, actual boots on the ground, lead on target, training at the squad level is woefully inadequate in many departments at this time. Some don't even have clear ROE for the responding officer to act upon and they are "doing it live" or trying to learn new skills in the middle of the fight. There is too much ambiguity. You're first...you go in NOW. Trust that other badges will be hot on your heels.

Thank God a good number of officers have the intellectual agility and facility to apply what they already know to the dynamic incident and act...but honest to goodness live fire training that encourages action versus reaction, and immediate initiation of individual action is critical.

It would be great to see coordination between city and county agencies with overlapping patrol zones develop a standard response, rather than city officers being held up while county deputies go in, or vice versa. I know it is going on in some places, but the elimination of jurisdictional dick fights would be great.

[TGS]

So, actual boots on the ground, lead on target, training at the squad level is woefully inadequate in many departments at this time. Some don't even have clear ROE for the responding officer to act upon and they are "doing it live" or trying to learn new skills in the middle of the fight. There is too much ambiguity. You're first...you go in NOW. Trust that other badges will be hot on your heels.


ROE?

[WobblyPossum]

Everyone’s “ROE” should be pretty similar. Graham v. Connor and Tennessee v. Garner. The only differences come in if your specific agency has a UOF policy that’s even more restrictive than “objective reasonableness.”


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[HCM]

FWIW, our G19M T's are great. They function superbly well.

Simuntion ammo or Speer FOF ?

[TGS]

Simuntion ammo or Speer FOF ?

IIRC, UTM for man marking and Simunition for blanks.

The UTM blanks don't fit them.

I don't remember any Speer ammo, unless Speer manufactures UTM's ammo lines....

[BehindBlueI's]

I know that many departments have implemented, are trying to implement, and are developing Active Shooter Response plans. My former department had the budget, and it had the in-house expertise for the curriculum development...but as the wheels of justice move slowly, more slowly moves the wheels of progress in the larger departments because there are SO many levels of command that have to put their stamp of approval on it

We're got roughly 1650 sworn officers and have doing department-wide active shooter training for over a decade, maybe 15-20 years? Don't know exactly. As a recruit I went through scenarios at real schools after hours with hundred+ roll players, pyrotechnics, etc. After Pulse, we did a simulated night club. After Houston we did active shooter among protesters, (although this was only for Special Services in-service, as we'd be the ones dealing with protests/riots). I'd say I get FoF training modeled on real life events at least every other year. Those not on SWAT or special services get it at least every 3-4.

[HCM]

I'm not sure if you are looking for individual departments or LE as whole, but I'll answer for my PD.

We need realistic force-on-force training that covers the whole level spectrum of UOF. In my perfect world, each scenario would have the officer(s) in full sim protective gear with a sim version of each weapon - not just equipment based on what the scenario will need. The actors would follow the lesson plan/script and not make it up as they go. Some scenarios will end in a shooting, some will end in a fight, and some will end with compliance if the officers act reasonably. Building searches, traffic stops (all kinds), disorderly person calls, domestics, alarms, every type of call we respond to will be scenarios.

We started doing this at least 10 years ago [sim version of each weapon) and various outcomes to scenarios to avoid the “they gave me a sim gun so I’m gonna shoot someone. When I was teaching in-service for my agrncy academy I wrote a bunch of scenarios along these lines ranging from a super obvious shoot to one where you arrest a wanted subject without incident but learn he is sick and needs methadone. In another you have a mom with a felony warrant and minor kids. Stepdad is there but he is a registered sex offender. Pretty common stuff but the officers were so conditioned to “Sims = shoot” that they were missing simple stuff in scenarios with no use of force just because we gave them a sims gun and a helmet.

[HCM]

IIRC, UTM for man marking and Simunition for blanks.

The UTM blanks don't fit them.

I don't remember any Speer ammo, unless Speer manufactures UTM's ammo lines....

The patent on the original simmunition marking cartridges expired a few years ago and Speer released a line of marking cartridges compatible with existing simmunition guns/conversions called Speer “Force On Force” which are a great improvement over the original simmunition rounds.

UTM pistol marking rounds are great. UTM rifle marking rounds are the Devil. Those suckers hurt.

[KeeFus]

IIRC, UTM for man marking and Simunition for blanks.

The UTM blanks don't fit them.

I don't remember any Speer ammo, unless Speer manufactures UTM's ammo lines....

Speer is on NC state contract...$250ish for a 500 case of marking cartridges. From what I’m told, SIMS is more expensive. UTM price is coming in today (I hope).

[psalms144.1]

For my money, it would be decision making and tactics through scenario based FOF, and tactical trauma/medical treatment. Not sure which would be a higher priority - as a "gun guy" I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm betting most LEOs encounter more medical issues than "gunfighting" issues on a daily basis.

[KeeFus]

Speer is on NC state contract...$250ish for a 500 case of marking cartridges. From what I’m told, SIMS is more expensive. UTM price is coming in today (I hope).

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

[HCM]

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

UTM and SIMS/FOF are not compatible/interchangeable.

IME UTM works the best, followed by FOF ammo in SIMS guns/conversions.

[Coyotesfan97]

Case law and scene management. Especially among rookies. Being assertive in clearing a crime scene, separating witnesses, maintaining a perimeter, preserving evidence, etc.

Getting evidence is great, making case law about how you did it after the suppression is not. And it's a moving target. Case law evolves continuously. Just look at warrantless searches of cell phones. Not just a rookie problem, especially with technology "searches".

I think my dept does a great job on the firearms, use of force, scenario training, etc. We've got an *excellent* outdoor range facility and tac bays. If I were Chief for a Day (likely longer than my real tenure would be) I'd like to see more Simunition stuff with real pain feedback again, and a return of something like FATS. I'm sure technology has advanced and made whatever the new simulation bays even more betterer.

I hate to say it but along with needing what BBI stated in the first paragraph id have to say report writing/documenting use of force. I go to lots of major cases and often I have to document UoF. My supplements are often five pages in Word and are invariably 2-3 times longer then the primary patrol Officer’s report. We (K9) rely on Graham v Connor to justify/document force ie dog bites. It carries over to other types of UoF.

I think I’m a pretty good report writer. One of the guys I work with is phenomenal. He’d be a great instructor for this class. I’d make it two hours and it’d be all GvC UoF report writing.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thanks to everyone who has jumped in. Now I can start wading through.

Please, keep the thoughts, ideas coming.

[TGS]

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

In our Glock 19T pistols, the UTM man-marking is used for force-on-force and structure clearing classes. The UTM blanks didn't fit....we have them left over from the previously used UTM-converted SIGs. We had to use Simunitions branded blanks for our Glock T pistols (they were brass case with a blue/purple-ish "bullet").

UTM has a huge ammunition line, and I'm guessing Glock (or UTM) can provide you with what product codes are/are not compatible.

[Erick Gelhaus]

While I agree with the need for improvement noted in the above areas referenced by our LE compatriots, I think Angus was asking about skills training NOT currently part of regular LE curriculum. If so, that's a big question. Ten years ago I would have said TCCC training focused on LE First Responders...but that training is available many places now. Correct me if I'm wrong, Angus...but you seem to be asking what NEW skills we in LE need to develop?

I'm not opposed to considering what we need to do better, but some of it is decades in the making. However, my focus is closer to your thoughts - what new training avenues do we need to explore, develop, push-out.

[HCM]

I hate to say it but along with needing what BBI stated in the first paragraph id have to say report writing/documenting use of force. I go to lots of major cases and often I have to document UoF. My supplements are often five pages in Word and are invariably 2-3 times longer then the primary patrol Officer’s report. We (K9) rely on Graham v Connor to justify/document force ie dog bites. It carries over to other types of UoF.

I think I’m a pretty good report writer. One of the guys I work with is phenomenal. He’d be a great instructor for this class. I’d make it two hours and it’d be all GvC UoF report writing.

What FLETC is doing in mixed basic classes and their UOF instructor class(highly recommend BTW) is a hybrid - putting students through a scenario with UOF, be it a SIMS shoot, foam baton, inert spray etc and then making you write a UOF report on in it detailing the articulable facts.