Low Light Malfunction Clearing

[NH Shooter]

In a low light "stoppage" situation, where one cannot not visually assess the nature of the stoppage (but for the sake of argument assume a click-but-no-bang vs. a dead trigger), I would lean toward a worst case scenario. In such a case, regardless of knowing exactly what the stoppage is, I would;


remove magazine
cycle the slide a few times and lock back
re-insert mag and drop the slide


In other words, I would not assume a simple failure to fire (bad round) that could be addressed by just racking the slide. Again, all of this in the context of low or no light and not using any hand held illumination to help diagnose the stoppage.

Thoughts and/or suggestions?

[TheRoland]

I think this would have to be situational, but I'm also likely to want to discard the magazine if I have another. It's faster, and on dark IDPA stages, I've watched others try to 'clear a malfunction' when the actual root cause was lack of bullets in the mag (or lack of a magazine at all).

Playing devil's advocate, is it really recommended to take the time to diagnose stoppages even if there is light? There's really only two, maybe three things I'm going to to fix a malfunction in a hurry (tap/rack/bang and drop mag, rack slide several times, toss in a new mag). It might be faster just to do them.

[Jay Cunningham]

The traditional immediate action (TRB) can be accomplished so quickly and instinctively that's there's almost no reason not to default to it. One should certainly be adept at remedial action as you described, but this gets into territory of "you will default to your level of experience".

Another thing - I've heard TRB described as not being able to clear certain malfunctions, or even making certain malfunctions worse. This can be true. However, I've come to find that TRB performed a particular way is much more effective.

I call it SMACK ROLL RACK.


SMACK the magazine hard. Don't bring your gun down onto your hand... bring the palm of your hand up to your gun.

ROLL the gun inboard as far as you can so that it is almost inverted. Take your arm and wrist to their limits.

RACK the slide aggressively whilst the gun is inverted. Use the support hand thumb and index finger to pinch the rear of the slide.


This will clear more malfunctions more reliably that the traditional TRB.

[JohnO]

I've trained all the malfunction procedures. So much so that I have broken no fewer than 4 extractors in Glocks and 1911s doing double feed clearances. I have pretty much decided to stop doing type 3 clearance drills for two reasons. One is the damage I have caused. Two is the fact that when I actually experienced a real world double feed malfunction the clearance protocol was worthless with a broken extractor. Larry Vickers was standing next to me when it happened in his class. I had to switch guns until I replaced the extractor. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

In low light or no light you can palpate the breach/chamber. Probing with a finger also works if you don't want to take your eyes off something/someone.

Tally of busted extractors: G23 (2), G21 (1), 1911 (1). The 1911 being the most inconvenient as the gun needed to go back to Ed Brown to blend the base of the extractor to to the slide.

[Cookie Monster]

What Jay said then if no love pull magazine, rack, rack, rack, insert mag, rack. If no love, plan C.

[Wayne Dobbs]

There are two basic malfunction procedures and both have been covered so far. They're called different names by different folks, but I call them Fail to Fire stoppages and Feedway stoppages. Fail to fire are most common due to unlocked magazine, slide slightly out of battery, bad round, empty chamber and I also put the stovepiped case in there because the fail to fire routine clears all. The procedure is tap the magazine floorplate to make sure it's locked on, roll the gun ejection port down (to make gravity our friend) and a hard cycle of the slide to clear the problem and allow the slide to chamber a new round. If that move doesn't work or if you do it poorly you have a feedway stoppage and...

It's a mess! This is caused by bad extractors, bad magazines, bad ammo, bad springs and all over sorts of "bad" (like bad fail to fire clearance manipulations!). There are several variations of this clearance routine out there, but I always teach the universal method, because I don't know what kind of pistol you'll have when this hard time shows up. It works on legacy (1911, 1935) pistols and on the striker fired guns. It starts with locking the slide manually to the rear with the slide stop lever, then ripping the magazine clear (it's likely being held in place by a partially fed round). Next, overhand grasp the slide and don't let go! Many folks let go between cycles and that adds time. Hold the slide at the rear and vigorously cycle it four or five times as fast as possible (should be able to do it in 1-1.5 seconds for all). This should've cleared all the problem out and now you have an empty pistol with the slide forward. Simply stroke a magazine onboard and again, using vigorous slide manipulation technique, chamber a new round and you're back up.

As to what we do with the magazine that was onboard when the stoppage occurred, you have two choices: retain if it's the only magazine you have (and that's not good, because it may be the stoppage cause) and let it fall if you have an extra magazine.

There are striker gun based methods that omit the manually locked slide for the first step but I don't use them or teach them because there are no guarantees that you'll always have a system that works with that method.

Par times for a polished shooter for the fail to fire stoppage are about 1.5 seconds and for a feedway stoppage, a great time is around four seconds. Working on these in practice/training really sucks, but you should do a few every time you hit the range and learn to do them eyes off first and then eyes off and on the move next, because if you have one in a fight, you'll likely want to get your ass somewhere else at high speed.

[GJM]

Par times for a polished shooter for the fail to fire stoppage are about 1.5 seconds and for a feedway stoppage, a great time is around four seconds. Working on these in practice/training really sucks, but you should do a few every time you hit the range and learn to do them eyes off first and then eyes off and on the move next, because if you have one in a fight, you'll likely want to get your ass somewhere else at high speed.

My plan is TRB, or if that doesn’t work, BUG, or if that isn’t an option, go Nike, because four seconds might be your life time.

[NH Shooter]

Playing devil's advocate, is it really recommended to take the time to diagnose stoppages even if there is light?

I think perhaps only in immediately observable cases: a fully closed slide (failure of cartridge to fire, failure to strip new round from magazine) might be resolved more quickly with a TRB, whereas a stovepipe or other more obvious stoppage would dictate the more extensive remediation.

But in the dark one may not be able to determine quickly if the slide is fully closed, so does it might make sense to bypass TRB and go straight to the full clearing procedure?

[GJM]

I think perhaps only in immediately observable cases: a fully closed slide (failure of cartridge to fire, failure to strip new round from magazine) might be resolved more quickly with a TRB, whereas a stovepipe or other more obvious stoppage would dictate the more extensive remediation.

But in the dark one may not be able to determine quickly if the slide is fully closed, so does it might make sense to bypass TRB and go straight to the full clearing procedure?

Only if you have at least four seconds to mess with, without getting hurt.

[NH Shooter]

Working on these in practice/training really sucks, but you should do a few every time you hit the range and learn to do them eyes off first and then eyes off and on the move next, because if you have one in a fight, you'll likely want to get your ass somewhere else at high speed.

Wayne, thanks for your thoughts!

My first inclination (as in how I think I'd react) at a click-instead-of-a-bang is indeed to get my ass out of harms way. Even if caught in the wide open, I believe my flight reflex would take control and point me to the nearest cover. Training to deal with a stoppage while moving makes good sense.


My plan is TRB, or if that doesn’t work, BUG, or if that isn’t an option, go Nike, because four seconds might be your life time.

No BUG mode for me (at least yet), but definitely "go Nike." So my default is to get the pistol back in action ASAP, preferably from behind cover or at least from concealment. I definitely do NOT want to be an easy static target while working on getting my pistol running, not even for a split second.

Thus the reason for my OP of using the concealment of darkness and NOT depending on illumination to clear the stoppage: TRB or just default to the full enchilada?

[Wayne Dobbs]

I think perhaps only in immediately observable cases: a fully closed slide (failure of cartridge to fire, failure to strip new round from magazine) might be resolved more quickly with a TRB, whereas a stovepipe or other more obvious stoppage would dictate the more extensive remediation.

But in the dark one may not be able to determine quickly if the slide is fully closed, so does it might make sense to bypass TRB and go straight to the full clearing procedure?

The failure to eject ("stovepipe") is much more easily cleared by the TRB, with a port down roll, than anything else. The old methods of wiping cases clear just didn't work across the range of those malfunctions and the many pistols having them. Much of the time you got a bloody hand lac and a feedway stoppage because you wiped the case back INTO the gun instead of off the gun.

As for bypassing TRB, some places teach this and I can see merit in that approach. The thing that keeps me from fully going there is that TRB fixes more stoppages than not and so you're in a statistical quandary at that point of which is best. My frame of reference for this is teaching folks that are never going to be above a basic level shooter in both competence and interest (cops). My basic routine is to TRB and if that doesn't work, do the feedway stoppage routine or go to BUG (which most won't carry).

From an institutional approach, it's incumbent on armorers, trainers and supervision to make sure guns, magazines, ammo and maintenance are on the tracks at all times, because in my dark secret heart, I doubt most folks with a stoppage are going to do anything other than stare at it and get whacked by the bad guy they're in a fight with. There was a recent success with my old PD program when they had seven officers shooting at a rifle armed suspect in an apartment. Said asshole had already killed one officer with a shot to the neck and was then in a general exchange with the cops. One of them had a fail to fire stoppage (slide didn't close and lock) and quickly cleared it and got back into the fight. That was gratifying, but I doubt it's the norm to be expected.

[Poconnor]

I watched too many shooters fumble malfunctions in day light to get up worked up with low light shenanigans. Wayne hit it on the head. Greg Hamilton taught me to put bungee cord on my surefire 6Ps 20 some years ago. I still do it. It allows me to reload, open doors, use a phone or radio and clear malfunctions with the light in my hand. Granted you have set it up before hand but it works great for police officers responding to a call. I often thought about just teaching to reload because of the lowest 20 percent that refused to improve or try. (They just didn’t care) but I never did because it would cheat the ones that do train and practice. Backup guns, weapon mounted lights, movement to cover all come into play. I took many lessons Army infantry to police work. Extra flashlights, I had two micro lights 550 corded the shoulder straps of my vest. They were under my uniform shirt. The left was a red light; the right was a white light. I also had a back up gun and a whistle. I am getting off topic but one year at night fire we had each officer assemble their 1911 in the dark and then fire. It didn’t go well. Too many could not do it and quit trying. I never understood that . There are no overs in a fight

[Jay Cunningham]

The failure to eject ("stovepipe") is much more easily cleared by the TRB, with a port down roll, than anything else. The old methods of wiping cases clear just didn't work across the range of those malfunctions and the many pistols having them. Much of the time you got a bloody hand lac and a feedway stoppage because you wiped the case back INTO the gun instead of off the gun.

As for bypassing TRB, some places teach this and I can see merit in that approach. The thing that keeps me from fully going there is that TRB fixes more stoppages than not and so you're in a statistical quandary at that point of which is best. My frame of reference for this is teaching folks that are never going to be above a basic level shooter in both competence and interest (cops). My basic routine is to TRB and if that doesn't work, do the feedway stoppage routine or go to BUG (which most won't carry).

From an institutional approach, it's incumbent on armorers, trainers and supervision to make sure guns, magazines, ammo and maintenance are on the tracks at all times, because in my dark secret heart, I doubt most folks with a stoppage are going to do anything other than stare at it and get whacked by the bad guy they're in a fight with. There was a recent success with my old PD program when they had seven officers shooting at a rifle armed suspect in an apartment. Said asshole had already killed one officer with a shot to the neck and was then in a general exchange with the cops. One of them had a fail to fire stoppage (slide didn't close and lock) and quickly cleared it and got back into the fight. That was gratifying, but I doubt it's the norm to be expected.

Tracking 100% on the bold print.

[NH Shooter]

As for bypassing TRB, some places teach this and I can see merit in that approach. The thing that keeps me from fully going there is that TRB fixes more stoppages than not and so you're in a statistical quandary at that point of which is best.

Thank you, exactly what I was looking for!

Also agree 100% on knowing one's equipment, from both a functional and maintenance POV. I suspect like many here, I spend plenty of time and effort on both.

[Redhat]

I learned / taught it essentially Wayne's way with zero emphasis on low light techniques...but...I do have a question...assuming you have a light in your hand, what do you teach folks to do with it while applying immediate(TRB) or remedial action?

[NH Shooter]

...assuming you have a light in your hand, what do you teach folks to do with it while applying immediate(TRB) or remedial action?

I use finger lanyards on my carry lights, with break-away connectors;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/mdcvme-2.jpg

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/mdcvme-3.jpg

Since I took these photos, I have lengthened the lanyards a touch so no need to move to the back of the hand - I simply let go of the light and do what I have to do.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I learned / taught it essentially Wayne's way with zero emphasis on low light techniques...but...I do have a question...assuming you have a light in your hand, what do you teach folks to do with it while applying immediate(TRB) or remedial action?

Depends on the light and any lanyard arrangement. If the light is attached via a lanyard, simply let go of the light and conduct the clearance business. Recover the light as needed. If it's not due to size or because of no lanyard, I stow it in my gun side arm pit, light off and bezel to the rear. The gun arm should be providing tension to keep it in your arm pit. Conduct clearance, recover light (or not) and get back to business. If you're operating with a small light, such as a Surefire, etc., you can stick it in a support side pocket also.

[Redhat]

Depends on the light and any lanyard arrangement. If the light is attached via a lanyard, simply let go of the light and conduct the clearance business. Recover the light as needed. If it's not due to size or because of no lanyard, I stow it in my gun side arm pit, light off and bezel to the rear. The gun arm should be providing tension to keep it in your arm pit. Conduct clearance, recover light (or not) and get back to business. If you're operating with a small light, such as a Surefire, etc., you can stick it in a support side pocket also.

I had to work this out using a GI "L" shaped light years ago and came to the same conclusion...under my arm. I also have a concern about tucking it into a pocket. With my luck, it would come on and light me up like a billboard. I guess a covered tail-cap might reduce the chances though?

I assume you guys have tried the various methods of conducting weapon manipulations while still holding onto the light?

[Jay Cunningham]

I use finger lanyards on my carry lights, with break-away connectors;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/mdcvme-2.jpg

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/mdcvme-3.jpg

Since I took these photos, I have lengthened the lanyards a touch so no need to move to the back of the hand - I simply let go of the light and do what I have to do.


Holy cow, do you have grizzly bear DNA?

[Dave J]

I use finger lanyards on my carry lights, with break-away connectors;



I’m pretty sure you posted it in the past, but where did you get the breakaway connectors?

[TGS]

I like the idea of letting the trigger tell you what to do.

Click no bang = immediate action.

Dead trigger = remedial action.

[NH Shooter]

Holy cow, do you have grizzly bear DNA?

My hands are smaller than Trump's with short, fat fingers.


I assume you guys have tried the various methods of conducting weapon manipulations while still holding onto the light?

Even with a larger light the lanyard works well: just let it go and hang by the finger, do what needs to be done;

28273


I’m pretty sure you posted it in the past, but where did you get the breakaway connectors?

Just Google "paracord barrel connector" and you will find many links.

[Jay Cunningham]

I like the idea of letting the trigger tell you what to do.

Click no bang = immediate action.

Dead trigger = remedial action.

That’s a good general guideline, but is a lot to process for most. Plus, smack-roll-rack can fix dead trigger results.

[1Rangemaster]

This is a good discussion here. IMHO, simple is better. A slap/tap, roll, rack and assess will fix several issues. Perhaps no big surprise, but in observing students and action pistol competitors, unless they’ve trained and practiced, some will forget the tap. I recall watching a surveillance video of an attempted bank robbery a year or so ago: the retired officer who was working security in uniform, responded to a robber who walked in and fired a shot into the ceiling. The officer fired several shots, and seemed to have an induced stoppage(he was shooting one handed around a counter). He pulled the slide back, which luckily cleared it. He prevailed, luckily.
I like GJMs approach: tap, rack, backup if needed(and there), move to disengage if necessary. Above all, practice.

[scjbash]

This is a good discussion here. IMHO, simple is better. A slap/tap, roll, rack and assess will fix several issues. Perhaps no big surprise, but in observing students and action pistol competitors, unless they’ve trained and practiced, some will forget the tap. I recall watching a surveillance video of an attempted bank robbery a year or so ago: the retired officer who was working security in uniform, responded to a robber who walked in and fired a shot into the ceiling. The officer fired several shots, and seemed to have an induced stoppage(he was shooting one handed around a counter). He pulled the slide back, which luckily cleared it. He prevailed, luckily.
I like GJMs approach: tap, rack, backup if needed(and there), move to disengage if necessary. Above all, practice.

I eliminated the tap about a year and a half ago. It came down to the chance of the magazine coming unseated vs the time saved eliminating the tap. The time savings won out because I haven't had a mag come unseated in about ten years, and that was due to a shitty holster. It's never happened while firing. Not saying it can't happen but I think there's a bigger chance of catching a bullet to the noodle during that extra .40 it takes me to smack the mag.

[NH Shooter]

I eliminated the tap about a year and a half ago. It came down to the chance of the magazine coming unseated vs the time saved eliminating the tap.

The only time I've experienced a not-fully-seated magazine is when inserting a full mag with a round already in the chamber. This is an issue with 8-round magazines in my PPS, so now I always tap when inserting any mag in any pistol. But like you, I do not experience any magazine unseating issues during a string of fire.

IMO this is another illustration of the importance of knowing one's gear and what issues might be expected. Another example - when my 5-inch PPQ was new the slide would occasionally fail to fully close, missing by a fraction of an inch. In that case a pull of the trigger resulted in a click-but-no-bang as the striker drove the slide fully closed and leaving a dead trigger in the process. Now that I have some rounds through the PPQ and I've adjusted my grip, I no longer experience that malfunction* but I know the potential for it exists. A TRB (or just a RB) is the default remedial action and absolutely resolves it in all cases, though all that is really needed is to simply retract the slide by about half an inch to reset the striker.

*a firmer grip and getting some rounds through the pistol solved the issue, but I now also pay closer attention to lubrication. I have also switched to 147 grain ammo which this pistol seems to prefer. Knowing its idiosyncrasies, ammo preferences, etc. have been key to attaining confidence in it.

[That Guy]

I eliminated the tap about a year and a half ago. It came down to the chance of the magazine coming unseated vs the time saved eliminating the tap. The time savings won out because I haven't had a mag come unseated in about ten years, and that was due to a shitty holster. It's never happened while firing. Not saying it can't happen but I think there's a bigger chance of catching a bullet to the noodle during that extra .40 it takes me to smack the mag.

I find that idea very uncomfortable. I've watched a very experienced IPSC shooter shoot a stage where his magazine came unseated multiple shots after a magazine change. The guy skipped the tap - I'm guessing here but I got the impression his magazine has never before came unseated, either - and ended up spending a lot of time racking, aiming, pressing the trigger, getting a click, repeating previous steps, being puzzled what was going on... The combination of a malfunction he hadn't practised clearing, properly, and the stress of shooting against the clock really short-circuited his brain. A proper tap-and-rack would have kept him in the competition with just a few seconds added to his time, instead of the total dumpster fire that stage turned out to be for him. And of course if it had been a two-way range that guy would have died, guaranteed.

[GJM]

The only time I've experienced a not-fully-seated magazine is when inserting a full mag with a round already in the chamber. This is an issue with 8-round magazines in my PPS, so now I always tap when inserting any mag in any pistol. But like you, I do not experience any magazine unseating issues during a string of fire.

IMO this is another illustration of the importance of knowing one's gear and what issues might be expected. Another example - when my 5-inch PPQ was new the slide would occasionally fail to fully close, missing by a fraction of an inch. In that case a pull of the trigger resulted in a click-but-no-bang as the striker drove the slide fully closed and leaving a dead trigger in the process. Now that I have some rounds through the PPQ and I've adjusted my grip, I no longer experience that malfunction* but I know the potential for it exists. A TRB (or just a RB) is the default remedial action and absolutely resolves it in all cases, though all that is really needed is to simply retract the slide by about half an inch to reset the striker.

*a firmer grip and getting some rounds through the pistol solved the issue, but I now also pay closer attention to lubrication. I have also switched to 147 grain ammo which this pistol seems to prefer. Knowing its idiosyncrasies, ammo preferences, etc. have been key to attaining confidence in it.

Have you ever measured what that extra tap on every reload with every pistol costs you in time? I watch a lot of different shooters on classifiers, and the tap guys are the ones with a slow reload.

[JohnO]

I eliminated the tap about a year and a half ago. It came down to the chance of the magazine coming unseated vs the time saved eliminating the tap. The time savings won out because I haven't had a mag come unseated in about ten years, and that was due to a shitty holster. It's never happened while firing. Not saying it can't happen but I think there's a bigger chance of catching a bullet to the noodle during that extra .40 it takes me to smack the mag.


I find that idea very uncomfortable. I've watched a very experienced IPSC shooter shoot a stage where his magazine came unseated multiple shots after a magazine change. The guy skipped the tap - I'm guessing here but I got the impression his magazine has never before came unseated, either - and ended up spending a lot of time racking, aiming, pressing the trigger, getting a click, repeating previous steps, being puzzled what was going on... The combination of a malfunction he hadn't practised clearing, properly, and the stress of shooting against the clock really short-circuited his brain. A proper tap-and-rack would have kept him in the competition with just a few seconds added to his time, instead of the total dumpster fire that stage turned out to be for him. And of course if it had been a two-way range that guy would have died, guaranteed.

The Tap is a remedy that can fix a problem that the weapon system may or may not have at the moment. By discounting or eliminating the Tap you could be sealing your fate. It may have been an unseated magazine, empty chamber, out of battery or a dud round. Logic dictates you execute a remediation that solves all those problems. Hence the Tap then rack. Investigation into the actual cause is not time well spent. Assumption that the magazine is seated could be your last guess ever. The minimal amount of time it takes to perform the Tap is well spent.

[JohnO]

Speaking of malfunction clearances. I may have posted some of this somewhere else her I'm not certain. I certainly have spoken to friends about it many times.

My son is a police cadet. Back in May he competed on the range at Stations Day http://www.nerleea.org/event-2820957.

Range directions were that any cadet who experienced a malfunction was to stop and raise their hand. The malfunction would then be handled by their individual RSO shadow. During a string of fire my son's 226 developed a double feed malfunction. He followed the rules and handed the weapon to his RSO. My son is well versed in how to clear the malfunction and can do it in less that 5 seconds. He stood there in amazement and watched the RSO struggle attempting to clear the malfunction. The RSO called for assistance from another police officer on the range and the two proceeded to have a difficult time clearing the weapon. During a debrief at my son's next cadet meeting the following week he learned that his RSO at the competition was a firearms instructor for our hometown police department.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I know that there are shortcuts on these clearance drills that lots of folks do. They include not locking the slide on a feedway stoppage and not tapping the magazine on a fail to fire. I feel like these are bad ideas. The manipulations are such that they work on any service pistol platform and in virtually any circumstance of such stoppages occurring. When you freelance them, you're asking for failure. If you're in a fight with a pistol, you're already in deep shit, and to have a stoppage is really bad. Why would you do something that might not work and that you're "customizing" for your pistol? How can you guarantee that the pistol you have in your fight is the one you planned on and not a pick up or loaner (thinking OCONUS and Commie state situations)? If you learn, practice and do the known quantity methods, you get the correct results. Finally, many (most?) folks are going to change systems once or twice during a police career and some of us change them a couple of times in a year! Witness the resurgence of the TDA Berettas here. Serious users must have something that works across the spectrum and not a customized approach. If you think that's wrong, you haven't seen somebody have a stoppage in a stress situation.

I've cleared two in stress training situations with Sims (which is notoriously unreliable), one each of a fail to fire and feedway stoppage. The fail to fire was as a bad guy with a Glock blue gun and I cleared it so quickly and shot the cop about six feet away that we were both shocked. I was admonished for not surrendering. The feedway stoppage was as a good guy on a State Department pre-deployment train up with a Beretta M9. That one got compliments from the monitors because it was done reflexively and quickly. Both were results of LOTS of perfect practice on doing something that's no fun and that I don't like to do. That's a training secret on anything physical, by the way. Do something you're not good at or don't like and do it perfectly and repetitively.

[JustOneGun]

That’s a good general guideline, but is a lot to process for most. Plus, smack-roll-rack can fix dead trigger results.



This was my thought. Overall I'm with Wayne on this. It's hard to beat the tap/rack/roll with port down as a first step. That fixes most problems. The problems that it doesn't fix, it usually diagnosis well. Rack the slide and the slide locks back, well perhaps you should load the empty gun. Or the slide doesn't want to go back then go to a feed way clearance.

My second thought was that people will go to great lengths to get their pistol shooting fantastic but not change the magazine springs until there is a problem. In my experience, most gunfight fixable feed way malfunctions requiring the magazine to be stripped are caused by weak magazine springs. That's a good reason to carry a spare magazine as a civilian or off duty. It's also a good reason to find a schedule to replace the mag springs that works for you and your gun. On my carry gun I change my mag springs every year.

[GJM]

Just remembered that I had an unexpected problem (P09 ignition) in a match a month ago, and edited it down to just the clearance.


https://youtu.be/9KTbh7TjbYQ

[1Rangemaster]

The Tap is a remedy that can fix a problem that the weapon system may or may not have at the moment. By discounting or eliminating the Tap you could be sealing your fate. It may have been an unseated magazine, empty chamber, out of battery or a dud round. Logic dictates you execute a remediation that solves all those problems. Hence the Tap then rack. Investigation into the actual cause is not time well spent. Assumption that the magazine is seated could be your last guess ever. The minimal amount of time it takes to perform the Tap is well spent.

Yes. I perhaps wasn’t clear with my earlier example; I don't agree with eliminating the tap. I have had a mag unlock (but not fall) in competition(extended mag catch depressed as I snatched off table in scenario) and during a qual(either I did’nt seat it during a in holster [admin.] reload, or holster/seatbelt depressed catch). In both cases just a slide tug wouldn’t have worked. Personal experience is a motivator. I’ll continue to tap, rack and carry on. Reference the OP: in the dark, tap, rack(flashlight handling if present following Wayne Dobbs recommendations). If that did not solve issue, it becomes situational: cover(present?) and clear/reload, second gun(not often present-now retired), “tactical withdrawal”or blades and blunt instruments...
Off the top of my head, I don’t recall Claude Werner mentioning an instance of stoppage clearances in “civilian” defense(as well as emergency loading). Final thought: decide on some response and PRACTICE it for Mr. Murphy-even if it’s just a dummy round every now and then for your choice of immediate action.

[scjbash]

I don't by any means believe a tap is wrong. When I'm teaching novice shooters I don't even mention the idea of eliminating the tap. I'm personally comfortable with it though. I don't bounce around to different carry guns and have no interest in changing what I'm carrying. I avoid commie states like the plague and it's extremely rare for me to be out of the country so that has no influence on what I do. I understand being ready for everything but the reality is that the chance of me needing a gun, not having mine, getting my hands on another one, and having a stoppage requiring a tap is so astronomically small I'm willing to risk it. As an armed citizen if I'm shooting some asshole it's going to be an anomaly if I'm not using my gun to shoot a criminal in a close range and very fast encounter. It comes down to the chance of that being the moment I have a rare type of stoppage vs training a technique that gets the gun back in play the quickest for the vast majority of them. I think there's a much greater chance of me being shot by said criminal asshole than me needing a tap, so I've made the decision to go with the technique that better addresses that probability.

TANSTAAFL, and one day I may be bleeding out in a gas station parking lot wishing I would have tapped. Realistically I'm more likely to be laying there having a heart attack and wishing I carried aspirin instead of chap stick.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Both entities I teach for use (after Tap, Roll&Rack) Lock, Rip, Rack x3, Reload for the reason Wayne mentions - we know it works across all platforms in use by those we are teaching.

Since competition, matches, etc reared its head in this thread ... shot my first match in a couple decades last weekend. One of my takeways was that having malfunction clearence at an ingrained level was not a thing. Well, at least not among the 25 +/- shooters I was squaded with.

[Jay Cunningham]

I experienced a classic stovepipe today which I instantly cleared with a SMACK ROLL RACK. The only reason that I know it was a stovepipe was because my eyes saw it as I was fixing it -I spent zero time in diagnosis.

I had been instructed in a previous life that immediate action will only make a stovepipe worse. Well, maybe without the inverted roll.

Anywho I don’t know how long it took to fix but was on the order of a blink of an eye.

[Redhat]

I experienced a classic stovepipe today which I instantly cleared with a SMACK ROLL RACK. The only reason that I know it was a stovepipe was because my eyes saw it as I was fixing it -I spent zero time in diagnosis.

I had been instructed in a previous life that immediate action will only make a stovepipe worse. Well, maybe without the inverted roll.

Anywho I don’t know how long it took to fix but was on the order of a blink of an eye.

I've seen it happen many times with AR's but not so much with pistols

[Redhat]

Both entities I teach for use (after Tap, Roll&Rack) Lock, Rip, Rack x3, Reload for the reason Wayne mentions - we know it works across all platforms in use by those we are teaching.

Since competition, matches, etc reared its head in this thread ... shot my first match in a couple decades last weekend. One of my takeways was that having malfunction clearence at an ingrained level was not a thing. Well, at least not among the 25 +/- shooters I was squaded with.

I get the Rack x 3 part but why lock the slide back to reload the next mag? I don't think you specifically mentioned that but I believe it came up somewhere in this thread.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I get the Rack x 3 part but why lock the slide back to reload the next mag? I don't think you specifically mentioned that but I believe it came up somewhere in this thread.

I'm not sure why I'm being asked about it; especially since I do not and did not advocate it. Maybe whoever did can answer.

[Redhat]

I'm not sure why I'm being asked about it; especially since I do not and did not advocate it. Maybe whoever did can answer.

Sorry...I thought maybe you'd heard someone explain that thinking elsewhere.

[GJM]

Both entities I teach for use (after Tap, Roll&Rack) Lock, Rip, Rack x3, Reload for the reason Wayne mentions - we know it works across all platforms in use by those we are teaching.

Since competition, matches, etc reared its head in this thread ... shot my first match in a couple decades last weekend. One of my takeways was that having malfunction clearence at an ingrained level was not a thing. Well, at least not among the 25 +/- shooters I was squaded with.

My experience is that higher level competition shooters clear malfunctions very efficiently. For the newer and/or less experienced, it really depends on what their training background is.

[Shawn Dodson]

I use a series of three progressive immediate actions:

1. Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover.

2. If the pistol fails to fire then I perform a Combat Reload.

3. If the "spent" magazine fails to eject (detected by the inability to insert the fresh magazine into the magazine well) then I put the fresh magazine between the ring and pinky fingers of my firing hand, lock the slide open, rip the "spent" magazine from the pistol, rack, rack, rack, and finish the Combat Reload (seat, roll & rack, recover).

#1 addresses the most common causes of a stoppage.

#2 will get the gun up and running quicker if the magazine is simply depleted.

#3 will solve a double feed induced by tap, roll & rack, recover.

[Shawn Dodson]

I like the idea of letting the trigger tell you what to do.

Click no bang = immediate action.

Dead trigger = remedial action.

How often do you get the opportunity with actual unexpected stoppages to test your hypothesis that you'll be able to detect the difference under stress?

[TGS]

How often do you get the opportunity with actual unexpected stoppages to test your hypothesis that you'll be able to detect the difference under stress?

That's a good question.

If you consider force-on-force training with a mix of getting hit with paintballs, and other stimulis input from some insanely loud AK47 blanks and flash bangs thrown at you, as well as role playing actors getting thrown into the mix as stress, then quite often.

I was first exposed to this failure clearance regimen in the USMC, where it was taught as standard (atleast to my group)....so I can include any and all training I did in the USMC in my answer as well. My current agency teaches to always conduct immediate action no matter what, and personally I hate it. I have not had the same level of success of clearing most dead-trigger malfunctions with immediate action as people are reporting here. Completely the opposite, actually.

[Jay Cunningham]

What does it look like when you perform immediate action?

[TGS]

What does it look like when you perform immediate action?

Is "a monkey fucking a football" the correct answer?

For a simple click no bang I don't roll.

When I was trying the whole immediate action for dead triggers thing, it was a tap rack roll. Something might fall out, but the problem was that something else was already half way wanting to go in the begin with (hence the initial fialure), and so it'd need a remedial action anyway.

This is with the exception of one training day where I was handed a 19M as a loaner gun, and it so dirty that it wouldn't go into battery everytime...until oil got up to the line, I just do a tap on the back of the slide since we all knew it just needed lube.

On M4s? Forget it.

[Jay Cunningham]

Is "a monkey fucking a football" the correct answer?

For a simple click no bang I don't roll.

When I was trying the whole immediate action for dead triggers thing, it was a tap rack roll. Something might fall out, but the problem was that something else was already half way wanting to go in the begin with (hence the initial fialure), and so it'd need a remedial action anyway.

This is with the exception of one training day where I was handed a 19M as a loaner gun, and it so dirty that it wouldn't go into battery everytime...until oil got up to the line, I just do a tap on the back of the slide since we all knew it just needed lube.

On M4s? Forget it.

Try incorporating the inverted roll into your immediate action - seriously. I wasn't initially trained to do it, but at some point I began doing it. It is much more effective in clearing malfunctions than the usual TAP RACK BANG.

I think there's an interesting side discussion on pistol and M4 malfunction clearance. They're the same... yet different. lol

[TGS]

I think there's an interesting side discussion on pistol and M4 malfunction clearance. They're the same... yet different. lol

I think part of my experience might also be colored by the fact that our weapons are fairly well maintained, and IME failures are rare. Most of my malfunction clearances are with UTM guns, which I think (I have no numbers to support) tend to get fubar'd worse than real guns/ammo.

[That Guy]

I think there's an interesting side discussion on pistol and M4 malfunction clearance. They're the same... yet different. lol

As someone relatively new to the AR platform, I might be interested in hearing that discussion.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As someone relatively new to the AR platform, I might be interested in hearing that discussion.

That's a whole 'nother discussion. While principles are the same, executions are certainly different. In addition, there's another stoppage to teach on that system (brass over bolt).

[blues]

That's a whole 'nother discussion. While principles are the same, executions are certainly different. In addition, there's another stoppage to teach on that system (brass over bolt).

There's a real favorite. :rolleyes:

Wayne, if and when you have the time, I for one would enjoy reading your comments on malfunction clearing with the AR. Between the two threads it would make for good P-F reference material. (I've only had to use the mortar technique once so far.)

[Redhat]

...In addition, there's another stoppage to teach on that system (brass over bolt).

That reminded me of something strange. I never saw that particular stoppage until we started using M16A2's in the USAF. Any idea why they would differ in that regard from the original M16?

[PD Sgt.]

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it shows dealing with AR malfunctions regardless of light, and I feel some of the same principles cross over to pistol malfunctions.

https://youtu.be/jCXwoK28Oj8

[Wayne Dobbs]

That reminded me of something strange. I never saw that particular stoppage until we started using M16A2's in the USAF. Any idea why they would differ in that regard from the original M16?

That's way too much thread drift and can't be answered without seeing actual firearms, ammo and shooters.

[GRV]

I like the idea of letting the trigger tell you what to do.

Click no bang = immediate action.

Dead trigger = remedial action.

Clever!

Not sure it effects the utility of this, but certain issues with the trigger spring on a Glock or its installation can cause intermittent dead triggers after a slidelock reload that are best handled by tap-rack. The alternative would work fine too here I think, just take unnecessarily long.

Separately, I'd guess this isn't universally applicable across all gun platforms. Still, pretty cool idea.