Expectations When Purchasing a New S&W Revolver

[SD]

Mega Outdoor Store is merging with another Giant Outdoor store to make a great Big-Box Outdoor Store. I decided to cash in my earned reward points before my Visa card turns into a Master card and selected a S&W 640 PC that needed to ordered. Store Associate figured approximately a 2 week time frame when I placed the order yesterday. 15:00hrs today they call "its in come pick it up". Arriving at the store the associate @ the gun counter brings the gun from a back area and puts it on the back counter and directs me to complete 4473 requirements, Im like how about we look at the revolver first. He puts the blue box on the customer side of the counter area now, safety checks the revolver and hands it to me. It is absolutely filthy, has grime built up on the frame around the cylinder slide release button. The cylinder slide release button is sticking forward when pushed and then released, there is a fine turn line on the cylinder itself, lockup on the cylinder is to loose for my liking. My initial thought is this 640 has been on display forever someplace. I ask the associate "so where did this revolver come from" he looks me straight in the eye and says Smith & Wesson". I dispute the firearms condition, he proceeds to tell me he is a 27 year Law Enforcement Officer and a 3 time National Pistol Match Champion and I do not know what I'm talking about. Im like that's great this revolver is BS and Im not excepting it! He now calls a manager & security on me. So before I say or do anything that could be considered hostile I simply tell the manager this revolver has issues your associate has a condescending attitude dealing with me, either order me a new firearm or refund my money. He assured me they would get another gun and i left. So what should I expect when purchasing a new Performance Center revolver? Is it wrong for a big box store to sell firearms from the display case as new once they have been pawed over by x=customers x days on display.

[Duelist]

A display model is new. It is a display model that has never been sold. I have gotten discounts for purchasing a display model in the past.

That said: When the gun delivered doesn’t meet your expectations, you have every right to refuse it.

[OlongJohnson]

Academy generally discounts the display when they finally get around to selling it, at least I've picked up a few nice deals that way.

I have yet to inspect any revolver that's left an S&W factory in the past few years and not find some issue with it. Including apparently a whole batch of 640 Pros that got sent back to S&W when they were all like the one I ended up returning. The question is, what can you live with and how much will it cost to fix the stuff you can't.

You've also encountered one of the arguments against buying local. Go to the store to place the order. Pay full retail. Wait for it to come in so you can go pick it up. Deal with ignorant and unhelpful staff and their BS. Versus find the best price you can find, have it sent to a shop that is happy to do transfers at a fair price, and go there once to pick it up.

[SD]

Before leaving the Rustbelt my LGS operated along that same premise for a display model purchase. This particular store currently dealing with is in a tourist area and they get a huge volume of customers. On Monday I plan on talking to someone from Headquarters in Missouri. I have zero confidence with the local help to get this problem corrected.

[RJ]

Versus find the best price you can find, have it sent to a shop that is happy to do transfers at a fair price, and go there once to pick it up.

I just purchased a gun online using exactly this method. It was my first purchase of this type. Transaction was flawless and the gun was factory fresh.

My LGSs wanted between $125 and $150 more than I paid to order the gun in ‘2-3 days’.

OP I hope you get a snubby in acceptable condition soon. That sucks.

[SD]

Thanks Rich, i to have had good luck purchasing online, one of my favorite online-GS is Impact Guns. Excellent service knowledge my local LGS can't even come close to matching their price most of the time.

[deputyG23]

I guess I was lucky when I ordered a 442 from a regional LE/MIL dealer in 2013. The gun was excellent out of the box and has served me well since.
I now mostly buy older Smith revolvers at a low enough price to justify spending a few more dollars on action work or minor repairs if needed. I might pick up another 442 minus the lock and use my current one as a training gun.
It is sad to see S&W going through a cycle of questionable QC again.

[Tom Duffy]

You've also encountered one of the arguments against buying local. Go to the store to place the order. Pay full retail. Wait for it to come in so you can go pick it up. Deal with ignorant and unhelpful staff and their BS. Versus find the best price you can find, have it sent to a shop that is happy to do transfers at a fair price, and go there once to pick it up.

I think he's encountered the best reason FOR buying local. I would never buy a S&W or Ruger revolver without being able to inspect it first. The QC from either manufacturer is just too hit or miss. Buy a gun from an online store and take transfer from your FFL and the gun is your problem. Smith has lots of unsatisfied customers who tried to get a new gun with obvious flaws fixed. Additionally, with the Smith warranty not being what it used to be, you might end up paying for a repair that they used to cover. My local dealer will also send back a gun for repair on his dime for as long as you own the gun. Well worth any premium he might charge.

[41magfan]

S&W has turned mediocre into an art form ...... and they often have an attitude about it, to boot.

I've been long since done with new S&W revolvers since the late 90's I guess, but I succumbed to a good deal on a used but unfired Mod 29 Classic recently. Well, I didn't check it too good when I bought it and when I got it home in good light, I noticed the barrel/frame fitment was excessive with a clearance that measured .013.

Now, I realize that has absolutely nothing to do with function but a pistol with an msrp of $1,000 ought to look better than that. Anyhow, the CS guy told me that was normal these days and was within their QC standards. He actually told me they did that on purpose so they wouldn't scratch the frame when they screwed on the barrel. I spontaneously horse laughed just a little bit and asked why .001 (or less) clearance wouldn't accomplish the very same thing. Well, he didn't like being asked that question and when I commented that Taurus fitted guns better, things went south pretty quick.

I took it to a local gunsmith to have the barrel set-back and he couldn't get the barrel off without fear of cracking the frame. My gunsmith related that back in the good old days S&W would make it right if that happened because it wasn't a terribly uncommon occurrence. He said those days are over - cracked frame means buying a new gun. It's worth noting that this guy has been building PPC guns since the 70's, so he knows a thing or two about fitting revolver barrels. Anyhow, I sold the gun without firing it and chalked that one up as a another reminder to stay away from their junk.

The latest episode that I'm personally familiar with just happens to involve another Mod 29 Classic. The buyer picked through four guns they had in-stock and supposedly got the best one. When he got it home and wiped it down, the blue job looked like something done in a basement - in bad light - using a bottle of Birchwood Casey cold blue. The barrel fitment was sloppy as well at .008 but to make things worse, the barrel wasn't aligned properly.

Sent the gun back, got the gun back in a matter of days, but the blue job was no better than it was to start with and to add insult to injury we now have tool marks/scratches on the gun (still unfired at this point) that were NOT on the gun initially. The CS guy had some excuse for the poor service and predictably gets an attitude when the owner suggest they consult Ford's Custom Gun Refinishing for some pointers in how to properly blue guns without doing damage to them.

They've had the gun for over a month on this return trip ..... perhaps they did send it to Ford's for bluing?

[OlongJohnson]

I also have sent a revolver back to S&W to fix a severe defect (this one fuctional) that wasn't apparent upon pre-transfer inspection. They did fix that issue, but then totally fubared another part that I hadn't asked them to touch. Fortunately, when I called them about it, they sent out a replacement for the damaged part without hesitation.

That, at least, has been reasonably consistent. I've needed them to send out small parts that were jacked up from the factory on a couple occasions, and they have always sent them fast and free. It seems to be actually fixing guns that they have problems with.



Thanks Rich, i to have had good luck purchasing online, one of my favorite online-GS is Impact Guns. Excellent service knowledge my local LGS can't even come close to matching their price most of the time.

I had an experience with Impact Guns a couple years ago that showed them to be extremely unethical. I called ahead before placing an order and spoke to a human to verify that the item was actually in stock and ready to ship, and was told that it was. That turned out not to be true, and they were unable to deliver in the time by which the item was required. Then, still without even having received the item into their inventory so that they could ship it, they refused to refund my money. I was gearing up to fight them through the CC company when they without warning suddenly refunded the amount. I can only speculate that they finally got the item in from the distributor and found someone else to sell it to. Even though they do come up as the best price on an item from time to time, my current expectation is to never do business with them again.

My personal fave online shop is Whittaker Guns. They aren't always the best price, but they are everything you'd want a shop to be. Awesome personalized service, active in the community, invest in doing special things that no other dealer will do. They also have a brick and mortar shop in KY that I've heard is a near-Valhalla if you like Fuddly stuff.

[TGS]

Where I grew up, you could take your car to the local VoTech school and they would paint your car at-cost, simply as a way for students to practice.

Does S&W do the same thing with gunsmithing?

[farscott]

I believe part of the issue is that the people who knew how to build and fit a revolver have all retired or moved on to other things. Back in the middle 1990s, Vito and John French at the Performance Center, started by Paul Liebenberg, could design and build one heck of a revolver. None of those fine people work there today.

[Malamute]

The cylinder slide release button is sticking forward when pushed and then released...

Not sure what you meant, it sticks with the cylinder still in the frame, just pushing the thumbpiece forward and letting it go, or pushing it, releasing the cylinder out of the frame, and the thumbpiece stayed forward?

Too bad about all the issues with that gun, and their attitude about handling it.

[SD]

I should have articulated this better to begin with. Using my thumb to push the cylinder release forward felt gritty and not smooth at all, If i released my thumb from applying forward pressure and then tried to open the cylinder it would not open. Re-applying pressure to the cylinder release there would be no noticeable movement forward because it never retracted when it was released but the cylinder would now open. I really think overall this is more of situation that the store was trying to move a well handled/abused display firearm then a QC problem with S&W. Not that i said it like this but I also believe the store associate is not used to a customer saying WTF is this turd you a trying to pawn off on me.
Not sure what you meant, it sticks with the cylinder still in the frame, just pushing the thumbpiece forward and letting it go, or pushing it, releasing the cylinder out of the frame, and the thumbpiece stayed forward?

Too bad about all the issues with that gun, and their attitude about handling it.

[LockedBreech]

Honestly, I only buy online anymore, from a small handful of reputable sites that do high volume. I have had far fewer issues and I don't have to deal with the know-better-than-thou gun store employees. The last straw for the last local dealer I thought was decent was when he offered me something like $300 in TRADE VALUE (not cash) for a like-new condition Beretta 92FS Compact and said I wasn't going to get anymore. I later sold it at a much fairer price to a Pistol-Forum member who recently posted about it and seems to be enjoying it. It's Pistol-Forum or about 6 online shops for me anymore, period.

[jws]

I bought a S&W 442-1 online about two weeks ago. Immediately on inspection at the FFl it was sent to I noticed some poor machining on the extractor rod. Since I have been reading about some recent quality control problems with S&W j-frames, I kind of anticipated a problem but was still hoping for the best. Since I had paid for it online and the FFl was just transferring it to me, I took it home. After some dry fire at home I noticed an issue with the trigger return. I called S&W customer on Friday morning and dropped it off for shipping back to them Friday afternoon. I’m hopeful that it will be in good working order when it is sent back to me.

[JAH 3rd]

Back around "77 or "78, I bought a brand new S&W model 19, blue with a 4" barrel. Hadn't had it but 3 or 4 months when it totally locked up when I was shooting it one day. Using factory .357 ammo (don't remember brand), you couldn't pull the trigger or pull back the hammer or open the cylinder. Luckily this happened after the sixth round was fired. Sent it back to Smith. Took about 3 months to get it back and it functioned perfectly thereafter. Had a S&W model 59 15-shot 9mm. It was having ejection problems of which I faintly remember this was a known issue for this pistol. Not a recall, but an issue with a known fix. I got it back and it functioned perfectly thereafter. Both repairs were under factory warranty.

[HCM]

Honestly, I only buy online anymore, from a small handful of reputable sites that do high volume. I have had far fewer issues and I don't have to deal with the know-better-than-thou gun store employees. The last straw for the last local dealer I thought was decent was when he offered me something like $300 in TRADE VALUE (not cash) for a like-new condition Beretta 92FS Compact and said I wasn't going to get anymore. I later sold it at a much fairer price to a Pistol-Forum member who recently posted about it and seems to be enjoying it. It's Pistol-Forum or about 6 online shops for me anymore, period.

Fair private sale price does not equal gunstore trade in price. 50 to 60 percent of the reasonable used retail price is normal trade in on a used gun. You wouldn’t get anymore from another FFL.

They are in business to make money and used guns have much higher margins than new guns which have tiny margins. They are investing in holding onto the gun until they find a buyer. Many people want the new hotness “RIGHT NOW” so they do the deal. It’s nothing personal.

[HCM]

Back around "77 or "78, I bought a brand new S&W model 19, blue with a 4" barrel. Hadn't had it but 3 or 4 months when it totally locked up when I was shooting it one day. Using factory .357 ammo (don't remember brand), you couldn't pull the trigger or pull back the hammer or open the cylinder. Luckily this happened after the sixth round was fired. Sent it back to Smith. Took about 3 months to get it back and it functioned perfectly thereafter. Had a S&W model 59 15-shot 9mm. It was having ejection problems of which I faintly remember this was a known issue for this pistol. Not a recall, but an issue with a known fix. I got it back and it functioned perfectly thereafter. Both repairs were under factory warranty.

That was a long time ago.

The past is another country, they do things differently there.

[LockedBreech]

Fair private sale price does not equal gunstore trade in price. 50 to 60 percent of the reasonable used retail price is normal trade in on a used gun. You wouldn’t get anymore from another FFL.

They are in business to make money and used guns have much higher margins than new guns which have tiny margins. They are investing in holding onto the gun until they find a buyer. Many people want the new hotness “RIGHT NOW” so they do the deal. It’s nothing personal.

I have frequently received significantly better prices on trade-ins. In the same conversation he told me Berettas suck and nobody wants Berettas anymore and generally treated me like a housewife who found a gun in an estate sale.

That’s the kind of crap I’m over, more than the pricing issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stephanie B]

The past is another country, they do things differently there.
And you can’t get a visa to go there.

[RJ]

And you can’t get a visa to go there.

A bottle of Single Malt will help print the Boarding Pass though. :)

[1986s4]

I bought a new M67 a few years ago that I took right to the range. It shot left, waaay left and no amount of sight adjustment could correct it. I went right back to the shop where I got it where they looked at it and admitted the barrel was clocked. I was asked what I wanted 'my money back", "you don't want us to send it back?" "you can do with it what you please but I want my money back" . I got my money back. From that point forward I do a thorough inspection. I like S&W revolvers, older ones. I recently bought a Colt Official Police. It has worn bluing on the high points and slight pitting around the hammer area but very hard to see. But, tight lock up with close fitting parts almost invisible to see where one ends and the other begins. Shoots 147-158 gr. bullets to point of aim with a smooth action. These kinds of pistols are just to expensive to make anymore.

[SD]

One thing I have a hard time getting behind is the idea it would cost more money to build them to the same standard/quality today. With todays advanced CMC equipment and technology advancements for assembly why can't they at least meet the quality level of years past ?

[RJ]

One thing I have a hard time getting behind is the idea it would cost more money to build them to the same standard/quality today. With todays advanced CMC equipment and technology advancements for assembly why can't they at least meet the quality level of years past ?

I’m no ME, but one would suppose that assuming S&W invested the money in the tooling you’d be right.

[41magfan]

S&W spent a lot of money (@ $200 million IIRC) some years ago on updated CNC equipment, so when it comes to things like holes in the right places and dimensional requirements, the average S&W revolver may in fact be better than it's ever been. The problem is, revolvers (particularly) still require some high level of fitting (if you want it done correctly) and that can only be accomplished with a certain level of skill and a commitment to doing it right. It's more than just an issue of tight tolerances in the production scheme.

I think it's worth noting that most production grade semi-auto's lend themselves much better to being "assembled" from parts (of whatever quality) versus being "fitted" with parts (of varying quality). The lack of skilled craftsmen (coupled with unions and bad management practices) ultimately spelled the doom of Colt and set the course for their future. S&W seems to be on a similar path but the polymer paradigm will likely prop them up for a much longer period of time.

[OlongJohnson]

It's a surprisingly little-known phenomenon that cutters loaded in CNC equipment wear, and even the machines themselves wear. An operator can make a bad batch of parts all exactly the same quite efficiently with CNC equipment.

Also, there are clearly some features (like barrel crowns) where the typical result is so poor that one has to assume they are not CNC controlled processes.

[jtcarm]

To go with what .41Mag said: S&W revolvers are still essentially a 19th-century design, a time of cheap labor and a lot lower production costs in general.

Nearly every other handgun design being sold today has the advantage of 70-80 years of knowledge and technology.

The .357 Magnum debuted in 1935 with a price tag of $60 (4% of average household income.)

Out of curiosity (and apparently nothing to do), a couple years ago, I ran some estimates (making some assumptions) based on labor costs then and now (not consumer price index, which doesn’t even begin to tell the whole story) .

I came up with a price tag of around $3,000 (about 6% of average household income), if built the same way now.

That’s only accounting for labor & some materials. It doesn’t address costs of doing business that didn’t exist, or were insignificant in 1935, like liability and compliance.

[Outpost75]

Mechanical and Safety Inspection of the Double-Action Revolver


Few shooters today understand the mechanics of double-action revolvers or how to conduct a proper mechanical and safety inspection. This article attempts to cover most aspects of annual service revolver inspection as practiced by police armorers back in the day when your life depended upon your duty wheel gun going "bang~!" every time.

Thanks also to Mike Wood of Police One who reviewed the current draft and provided updated information regarding current model Ruger revolvers which have come into common civilian concealed carry use after I left the company. So, pay attention, Grasshopper and you’ll probably be more knowledgeable than anyone under age 70 working behind the gun shop counter today.

Open the cylinder, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Provide a 5-gallon bucket of sand in the shop for use as a clearing barrel.
Confirm that all cylinder charge holes are empty and that the bore is clear.

On guns having adjustable rear sights, visually inspect for damage, a simple confirmation to make sure that they’re not bent or damaged, and that screws are tight and not buggered.

Confirm proper function of the thumbpiece when releasing and opening the cylinder. S&Ws push forward, Colts pull backward, Ruger pushes inward.
Open and close the cylinder on each chamber, to ensure that the ejector rod is not sticky on any of chamber, due to burring of the tip of the ejector rod and subsequent drag on the forward locking bolt.

If the yoke/crane doesn’t pivot freely, in opening and closure, inspect the race for the yoke/crane screw for galling or rub marks, indicating the screw is a trifle long and should carefully shortened before installing and tightening again. Sometimes this occurs when side plate screws are shuffled around and the correct yoke screw doesn’t get into the forward hole, and one of the side plate screws gets inserted instead. Hard opening and closure may be easily corrected in most cases by swapping side-plate screws to their correct locations!

With the cylinder open, spin the cylinder and watch the end of the ejector rod for wobble.

Check with the fingers that the ejector rod is tight and not loose on threads. The threads in S&W ejector rods are fairly coarse, so taking the cylinder apart almost always requires re-adjustment to minimize run-out. Fixing run-out to the minimum no visible wobble does more for a smooth DA trigger pull than any spring work.

Verify that the ejector rod functions correctly at its full stroke and returns positively. When the ejector is held back in its full rearward stroke examine the underside of the extractor and contact area of the cylinder for unburned propellant residue. If a revolver is used in sandy areas, sand may indeed collect in there as well. Brush clean if any is found present. Also inspect the small extractor alignment pins pressed into the cylinder, to ensure they’re not bent/broken/missing and that they properly engage their holes in the extractor.

Inspect the firing pin hole in the recoil plate/frame bushing for peening or burrs. Gunsmith or armorer needs to stone off any burrs around the firing pin hole and re-seat and re-stake or replace the recoil plate or firing pin bushing if visibly set back, loose, cracked, damaged. Brownell’s sells the correct tool for doing this. On light alloy frames a ring peening of case rim diameter around the firing pin bushing is indicative of the revolver having been fired with more than a few +P loads, and is a clue to check end shake, etc. and correct as necessary.

Press on the center pin which protrudes at the center of the extractor of an S&W or Ruger at rear of cylinder, to verify free center pin movement and positive return. Visually inspect the front end of the S&W center pin for peening. Stone off any burrs.

Close the cylinder, grasping it with thumb and forefinger. The cylinder must not strike the barrel when closed! This may be caused by the yoke/crane screw being damaged, worn, loose, or from the gun having been shot loose by firing too many +P or +P+ loads, which produces excessive cylinder end shake, or in a gun being mis-assembled with a cylinder/yoke assembly from another gun [VERY common with ex-foreign police imports now been seen on the surplus market].

Confirm that both front and rear of the center pin on S&W or older Ruger Six series lock positively fore & aft as the cylinder is closed. Inspect crane lock function lock on later Ruger DAs.

Visually inspect fit of yoke/ crane at front of frame for gaps, which indicates misalignment.

Perform the 4-way cylinder stop function check. With cylinder open hold the revolver in your firing hand. Pull back the thumb piece and hold it to the rear. On the Ruger GP/SP rock the cylinder release forward and hold. Or on the Kimber/Ruger LCR use a punch to push the tip of cylinder locking piece back into the frame and hold.

Pull the trigger double action and watch the cylinder stop, it should drop below the frame top surface and pop back up, slowly release the trigger and the stop should move forward towards the muzzle and the back to the rear. Down, up, forward and back. Visually check bolt or cylinder stop function at every charge hole and finger-wiggle cylinder for side-wobble at each charge hole.

Check SA timing, making sure that the revolver is unloaded. Insert three empties with an empty chamber between empty cases or dummies. Cock each chamber SLOWLY in SA with the weight of gun resting in the palm of hand for drag. Note any failure to "carry up" and for bolt or cylinder stop to engage locking bolt notches prior to full cock.

Check hammer for push-off from the full cock position.

Drop hammer, hold trigger back and check cylinder for wobble both sideways and fore & aft

With hammer down and trigger held back again check cylinder wobble, observe hammer nose driven protrusion and retraction below flush with recoil plate as trigger allowed to rebound forward.

Check DA indexing, closing the cylinder and slowly pulling the trigger through double action. The cylinder stop should pop up into the stop notch and have a slight resistance after it is in the notch as the trigger is pulled to the rear before the hammer falls. This carry-up test needs to be done slowly, as a rapid pull can mask a “DCU” (factory term for doesn’t carry up) problem.

With the empties still in the cylinder and the revolver still un-loaded, pulling the revolver action through vigorously DA while watching for positive trigger return and positive lockup of cylinder stop/bolt at each charge hole, before the hammer drops. Note any failure to "carry-up," or any "throw-by" i.e., over-rotation of the cylinder, by failing to lock up and thereby rotating past a chamber, or sideways wobble.

Make sure the bolt or cylinder stop engages each locking notch the cylinder in place before the hammer falls. If locking skips on any cylinder then the cylinder stop and its spring needs to be replaced and a new cylinder stop fitted.

Throw-by test should always be done by a rapid DA pull; because many times an empty cylinder lacks the rotational momentum of a much heavier full cylinder and will not show a throw-by unless the trigger is pulled quite rapidly.

Check barrel-cylinder gap with feeler gage inserted completely through the frame opening between cylinder and barrel.
PASS is the dimension when a feeler gage is protruding out both sides of frame window between barrel and cylinder, which does not impair a complete rotation of the cylinder by pulling trigger through DA six times.

Minimum PASS dimension is 0.003", because a tighter barrel-cylinder gap may bind the cylinder when a gun gets hot or if shooting "dirty" ammo, such as black powder or lead bullets, particularly in reloads in which the bullets are too hard, undersized and inadequately lubricated...

HOLD is the dimension when the feeler gage is protruding out both sides of the frame window between the barrel and cylinder, binding rotation so resistance is felt in a DA trigger squeeze.

Maximum hold dimension is 0.008" on a new gun when measured with "rear gage" or fired brass in cylinder.
Customer service maximum is 0.009" after correction of any felt cylinder end play.
At 0.010" cylinder gap the usual factory repair procedure is to fit a new “plus” [0.005" longer] cylinder. The common gunsmith method is to set the barrel back a thread and to refit cylinder after removing end shake, stretching the crane arbor on S&W or Ruger if necessary, or swaging a Colt cylinder bushing.

In pre-WW1 revolvers originally built for black powder ammunition barrel-cylinder gaps of up to 0.010” are commonly encountered. Guns having a gap over about 0.012” should not be fired without being repaired, because they are very much more prone to “spitting” and “bullet-in-bore” malfunctions, especially with jacketed ammunition. Loosey-goosey WW2 S&W Victory Model .38 Specials shot with Army M41 Ball are notorious!


Check cylinder fore & aft for longitudinal movement. On Colts this check should be made with the trigger held to the rear in the fired mode, then cylinder lockup should then be rock-solid.

End shake is measured comparing the HOLD dimension measured twice, with and without empty brass or "GO" headspace gages in the chambers, or alternately with a 0.059" blade gage inserted between rear of cylinder and recoil plate. You can buy a “blade” gage from Brownell’s. If you know what to look for they are found occasionally as military surplus. The British issued the same type of gage for Victory Model S&Ws during WW2, and they also were issued at Ruger Police Armorers school in the 1980s.

The least cylinder movement most people can “feel” is about 0.002.” If an S&W or Ruger and the cylinder "feels solid" with empty brass in the chambers, the gun is OK.

Colt maximum end play is 0.003, so if there is ANY felt end shake the gun is out of spec.

Measure the difference between "pass" cylinder gap dimension taken twice with and without brass in cylinder.

If there is any sideways cylinder wobble or hesitation of center pin to lock fore and aft, disassemble cylinder from the yoke, check crane or yoke alignment with gage and correct. [The Power Custom revolver jig is the best tool I’ve used for adjusting ejector rod run-out.]

Visually inspect locking bolt notches of cylinder for peening, particularly caused by cylinder backspin in S&Ws from heavy loads, such as +P in J-frame guns or +P+ in K-frame!

Visually inspect the barrel forcing cone for cracks. S&W 357 K frame barrels were likely to crack in the 6:00 region, where a barrel flat was milled to clear the cylinder gas ring, which occurs most often after about 3000 full charge .357 rounds. The barrel then requires replacement.

Inspect the frame window adjacent to the barrel extension for flame cutting and around the firing pin bushing for set-back or peening. These conditions are most likely to occur in light alloy frame off-duty guns used excessively with +P ammunition. On S&W Scandium models having a pressed steel insert adjacent the barrel extension ensure that the insert is tight. Brush-clean all crevices inside the frame window and use a bright flashlight and loupe to inspect light alloy frames for cracks.

"Tightening up" a revolver action to adjust timing/indexing may be as simple as peening a Colt hand a bit longer so that a charge hole which is "slow" carries up. Factory procedure to correct DCU on S&W is to replace the hand with a slightly wider one, so its top comes closer to the inside of the hand slot. Thicker hands were sold at one time just for that purpose, but current S&W practice is not to stock hand in various thicknesses, but to use a common hand and replace the cylinder ratchet, which is cut using a slave fixture at the factory. Traditionally a K-frame hand was 0.091-0.095” thick, when measured just below the hook. On older guns often a replacement hand 0.001-0.002” wider will correct the problem. Power Custom makes wider hands up to 0.105,” which require gunsmith fitting.

A gunsmith method to correct timing on older guns, particularly Colts, for which parts may not be available, is to bend the hand slightly. Rotate the hand medially toward cylinder centerline to speed up timing. Conversely to delay it. Sometimes the frame window needs to be opened just a wee bit to get timing correct. Brownell’s sells an offset file that makes this job much easier and precise. If that doesn’t solve the problem it’s probably because the ratchet cam surfaces have worn below the level of the hand slot and must either be replaced, or welded up, machined, recut, and heat-treated, by a gunsmith who is a great mechanic.

S&W and Ruger timing adjustments should always be made AFTER correcting end shake and squaring the end of the cylinder yoke or crane arbor. On S&Ws the end of the yoke is frequently out of square with the axis of cylinder rotation. Again, Brownell’s provides a tool for K, L, and N frames. For J frame, I improvise with a muzzle squaring tool. Or you can make a threaded arbor to fit a Lee Case Trimmer head.

A wobbly cylinder is usually caused by worn locking bolt notches and is usually corrected by fitting a new cylinder stop or bolt and sometimes may be corrected by skillful peening the locking bolt notches in the cylinder to reduce side play. In severe cases replacing the cylinder may be necessary, particularly on abused older Colts.

Reducing cylinder end play of a Ruger or S&W involves stretching the crane arbor or barrel to hold the cylinder back. Supporting the inside of the crane arbor is important when stretching to prevent collapse during the procedure. Stretching the crane also increases cylinder gap, which if it then becomes over 0.008" then requires either refitting a "long" cylinder, or setting the barrel back a thread and resetting the gap to factory specs. Above not applicable to Colts; the gas ring, which is integral to the cylinder, must be swaged to lengthen. In extreme cases, it is machined off and a bearing ring fabricated to take its place.

A “light technical inspection” or LTI, which consists of a detail strip, clean, inspect, tweak, and reassemble, not requiring fitting any replacement parts generally runs about $100-125 today.

A “duty refurb” which includes any machine work needed to straighten a bent frame (caused by using the gun as an impact weapon against a hard-headed subject), or setting the barrel back and refit to correct lose cylinder gap over 0.008", realigning the crane, correcting end shake, adjusting timing to correct a DCU (doesn't carry up) condition, replacing worn springs, targeting and adjusting point of impact on fixed sight revolvers, measuring hammer throw and striker indent using the government gage with copper crusher, and usually runs about $300 plus parts.

If your revolver duty refurb also requires a heavy duty cleaning, such as ultrasonic cleaning followed by a hot acid pickle to remove active rust, as may be necessitated by prolonged sweat or saltwater immersion, alternately hand carding off any internal rust, then replacing and fitting either a new cylinder, or barrel or critical internal parts and re-bluing, the bill can easily run $500-600 plus parts if done by a Guild pistol smith of established national reputation. If you really like the gun and will carry it for EDC, such work skillfully done is worth every penny!

Today you rarely find gunsmiths who actually MEASURE striker indent on carry guns! That's because while you can buy the gage holders and their drawings are in the public domain, the "C" size .225x.400" annealed coppers are provided only to the government and their contractors and cost $2 apiece in minimum lots of 500, the last time I bought any.

So civilian and PD gunsmiths who inspect and repair serious carry revolvers for a living developed a "work-around."

For checking hammer fall, an expedient screening check before test firing with duty ammo, to be done only after all mechanical corrections to action have been completed, is to loop a string around the hammer so that you can attach a trigger pull scale. Pull the trigger to start the hammer moving. Pause midway. Attach trigger pull gauge. Pull hammer back note weight just before it locks into single action. You want 50+ ounces for reliability. Balance between the hammer spring and trigger return spring are important.

Check driven protrusion of the hammer nose or frame-mounted firing pin, any pitting or damage to tip, replace any weak or modified springs.
A light trigger return spring and heavy hammer spring is a recipe for mechanical lockup in the action! Check for this during the cylinder timing check. Trigger return should not be sluggish. If so, it indicates that action springs are imbalanced and trigger return spring likely needs replacement!

Most important on an S&W is that the strain screw in the front of the grip frame is tight, and that the screw has not been shortened excessively by Bubba to lighten his trigger pull! Skillful shortening as confirmed by 50+ ounces on the spring gage is OK. Less than 50 ounces may cause misfires because .357 Mag. and most +P defense loads today use heavier-cupped primers to prevent the primer cup from flowing into the clearance around the hammer nose in the recoil plate. This would cause hard cylinder rotation.

Off-center firing pin indents which are off by more than ½ the diameter of the striker point are cause for concern. Over-rotation of the barrel causing thread choke and point of impact not in alignment with the sights is another. These are the sort of things that happen when people on the shop floor aren't paying attention, which you seldom read about in news stand gun rags. You have to have “been there.”

I have not discussed proper use of a "range rod" or correction of "thread choke" here, because most hobby shooters won't have the tools to properly assess or fix what they find and it is possible to damage the gun if you don't use them properly.

The barrel forcing cone compensates for slight misalignment of the chambers and bore. If bore-chamber alignment is WAY off, the gun will shave lead, especially from wadcutter bullets, which is annoying for the fellow standing next to you!

If you don’t have a “range rod,” a "spitting" test you can conduct yourself is to load the gun with factory .38 Special wadcutters, poke it inside a brown paper grocery bag, or cereal box and trigger off a cylinder full DA. Check the bag or box for holes or lead particles sticking in it!

Heavier cup primers are less sensitive, and more prone to misfires if you have a gun with lighter after-market springs to reduce DA trigger pull, inexpertly converted to DAO with shorter hammer-throw, or a bobbed hammer.

If unable to measure striker energy (minimum 0.010" Cu indent in DA on the size "C" copper in the gov't gage) test fire a full box of 50 rounds of your carry ammo in DA.

Accept if ZERO misfires, Retest if "1" misfire, reject outright if "2". If firing a second sample of 50 rounds runs OK, the gun is OK, but understand it is only 99%... If you get 2 misfires in 100 rounds don't carry the gun until you change ammo and re-test or repair it.

If your gunsmith asks for a full box of your expensive carry ammo to function test your gun, THAT is a good thing. If he can actually show you the gage holders, his $1000 box of coppers and explain their proper use, this means that you have an APG or FLETC certified revolver inspector who was probably trained at the S&W, Colt or Ruger factory especially for the Feds. THAT guy is absolutely "golden" and you absolutely should gently rub his bald head for good luck as if it were the Buddha's belly!

DA revolver manufacture has changed a lot since my time as an industrial engineer and QA manager. Today most manufacturers are making guns only for the civilian mass CCW market. The pressure is on production and profits, not quality. I'll every time spend more money for an old gun that works, having it rebuilt by a factory-trained police gunsmith who carried one and retired from the job, than for a new gee whiz mall ninja blaster assembled from a box of plastic parts. OK, I’m a dinosaur.

If you've read this far you now probably know more about old cop revolvers than any guy under age 70 who stands behind the counter at your local gun shop. So, you can assess when he is full of manure or not.

[1slow]

Thank You Hugely for posting the LTI Procedure.

[MDFA]

All of the above is why we're all paying premium prices for S&W Revolvers that were made in 1994 or earlier. There were still Craftsmen who took Pride in their work and a company that cared about the product they sold, and the customers who bought those products.

[Borderland]

All of the above is why we're all paying premium prices for S&W Revolvers that were made in 1994 or earlier. There were still Craftsmen who took Pride in their work and a company that cared about the product they sold, and the customers who bought those products.

That's about my cut off date also. I have a bunch of S&W revolvers built before 1994 and they're all high quality. I have one that is newer (2005?) and one can see a lot of short cuts were made to produce that gun. It functions but it's hard to look at the fit and finish. It has no soul. I'm thinking about selling it and buying an older N frame to replace it.

[Scal]

The thing that gets to me is that properly done MIM, and the lower cost of high precision CNC machining means that the super fine labor intensive fitting and finishing is not strictly necessary like it used to be. I don’t have a problem with this at all, but it feels like Smith erred on the side of making things too cheaply with a wider band of what they deemed acceptable instead of leveraging these techniques to mass produce higher quality guns with minimal fitting. Guns with previously unacceptably high barrel cylinder gaps and lousy accuracy are usually found “in spec” and returned to customers if they’re sent back. Maybe this also happened when they were still making stuff the old way pre-1994. I wasn’t dealing with Smith customer service at the time, so I can’t say.

I am guessing that there’s some managers in Springfield who have run the numbers on making guns to tighter specs and have come to the conclusion that 95%+ of their customer base is not willing to pay for the premium for doing so, or would even understand what the hell a better fit gun does for them as they shoot patterns at their targets at five yards on their annual range trip. From a business standpoint, it’s arguably the correct call, but I don’t have to like it.

Aside from that, I have had a few QC issues with new out of the box Smiths, but also had a few good guns. But it feels like getting a good new Smith revolver is kind of a crapshoot, and you add those issues to the fact that a lot of their interesting guns come with the damn lock, and I tend to be really uninterested in the new Smith guns. I have a no lock aluminum j-frame and a steel no lock j-frame, and that’s probably about the only new Smith revolvers I will own for the foreseeable future, unless I need to replace those two j-frames I have.

[jtcarm]

You've also encountered one of the arguments against buying local. Go to the store to place the order. Pay full retail. Wait for it to come in so you can go pick it up. Deal with ignorant and unhelpful staff and their BS. Versus find the best price you can find, have it sent to a shop that is happy to do transfers at a fair price, and go there once to pick it up.

Sadly, about the only reason to buy from an LGS anymore is to inspect or even try before you buy.

[Scal]

https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/firing-pin-indent-gauges-nopix-/14347-38-357-firing-pin-indent-gauge.html

PTG looks to have something available with copper inserts in quantities of less than 1000 that might work well for checking firing pin indents.

[Outpost75]

https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/firing-pin-indent-gauges-nopix-/14347-38-357-firing-pin-indent-gauge.html

PTG looks to have something available with copper inserts in quantities of less than 1000 that might work well for checking firing pin indents.

Interesting, but I wonder if the government will accept results obtained on their coppers. The reason the Olin coppers are so expensive is because of the government's special metallurgical and testing requirements. It's not a matter of just shearing copper wire and forming them in a cold header.

It would be worth it to buy some of their coppers and have Knoop hardness, structures and chemistry done on them to compare with Olin coppers.
If I can get a metallurgy student at VA Tech interested in a project, we just may do that.

Thanks for the link!!!!

[Borderland]

Sadly, about the only reason to buy from an LGS anymore is to inspect or even try before you buy.

The LGS has to make a living somehow and anything they sell is going to be more than the internet price. Personally, it would be worth it to me to inspect the firearm before the sale, especially for a Colt or S&W. I'll pay the 10% to avoid dealing with customer service.

[That Guy]

My apologies if this is a dumb question. As some of the revolver vocabulary is a tad outside the scope of commonly used words, and since I'm an idiot, I'd like to double check I've understood this part correctly:



Close the cylinder, grasping it with thumb and forefinger. The cylinder must not strike the barrel when closed! This may be caused by the yoke/crane screw being damaged, worn, loose, or from the gun having been shot loose by firing too many +P or +P+ loads, which produces excessive cylinder end shake, or in a gun being mis-assembled with a cylinder/yoke assembly from another gun [VERY common with ex-foreign police imports now been seen on the surplus market].


Does this test apply equally to all revolver brands? The patient in question is a Ruger Speed Six.

When you say "grasping by thumb and forefinger", is any pressure placed on pushing the cylinder rearwards?

Looking at my Speed Six, the spring loaded... center stud? at the rear of the cylinder pushes the cylinder forward when closing it. The cylinder face comes awfully close to the rear end of the forcing cone. I'm unable to confirm whether the two make actual contact, but looking at the cylinder face / forcing cone area against light, when closing the cylinder I am unable to see any light between them. Once the cylinder has snapped closed there is a clearly visible cylinder gap.

How much end shake is considered excessive in this case, and are there any special considerations on measuring it?

The other possible reasons stated do not seem likely, since if I've understood things correctly the yoke/crane screw is a Smith & Wesson part and as far as I know the Speed Six has never been commonly used as a service weapon by any large organization in this country, so being accidentally assembled with parts from another gun seems unlikely. Although this gun is purchased used so who knows what has happened to it in the past. I am unable to compare the gun to another, known good, example of the same make and model.

[Outpost75]

.....Does this test apply equally to all revolver brands? The patient in question is a Ruger Speed Six.

When you say "grasping by thumb and forefinger", is any pressure placed on pushing the cylinder rearwards?

Looking at my Speed Six, the spring loaded... center stud? at the rear of the cylinder pushes the cylinder forward when closing it. The cylinder face comes awfully close to the rear end of the forcing cone. I'm unable to confirm whether the two make actual contact, but looking at the cylinder face / forcing cone area against light, when closing the cylinder I am unable to see any light between them. Once the cylinder has snapped closed there is a clearly visible cylinder gap.

How much end shake is considered excessive in this case, and are there any special considerations on measuring it?

... if I've understood things correctly the yoke/crane screw is a Smith & Wesson part and as far as I know the Speed Six has never been commonly used as a service weapon by any large organization in this country, so being accidentally assembled with parts from another gun seems unlikely. Although this gun is purchased used so who knows what has happened to it in the past. I am unable to compare the gun to another, known good, example of the same make and model.

The general inspection procedure for a Ruger is similar, but there are differences in the design, for as you note the Ruger doesn't have a yoke screw.

When closing the cylinder if the gun is fitted up properly it shouldn't matter if you exert forward pressure against the cylinder, as the yoke barrel should stop any forward movement. You can check this by coating the rear face of the barrel with Dychem or by using a felt tip marker where it protrudes into the frame window. If the cylinder rubs against the barrel, the yoke barrel needs to be stretched and the cylinder refitted.

Minimum cylinder gap is pass 0.003"/.hold 0.004 on a .38/.357 of normal production where frequent use of lead bullet ammunition is expected. A contract gun in which jacketed test ammunition was provided as government furnished material, and no use of lead ammunition was contemplated, such as for US Customs and Border Patrol, could be tighter, min. 0.002" pass/0.003" hold.

Over 0.002" end play on a Ruger is excessive. If you can feel any, it is too much. This is the difference between two barrel-cylinder gap measurements, one taken with the cylinder empty, and the other with GO headspace gage ("rear gage") in place. If you don't have a blade gage, insert sized, empty brass in the chambers.

In its heyday the "six" series revolvers were very widely used by multiple US government agencies, US military and the RCMP. as well as numerous state and municipal departments, and foreign contracts.

If this doesn't address your question, feel free to fire away again.

[Pistol Pete 10]

My expectations on a new S&W revolver. I have no plans to buy another new one. The new ones I have purchased over the last 25 years have all had something wrong with them. Some so bad I had to send them in for warranty repair and that wasn't satisfactory in most respects. Other I repaired or had to live with. One I traded away because S&W would not repair it, had oversize charge holes and the rear of the bbl was cut on a slant.
The good news is that if you just have ot have one, most can be made to perform as they should. I'm just tired of fighting them.

[JAH 3rd]

Somewhere between 1979-1984 I bought a new S&W model 34 .22 caliber revolver. It was known as the "kit gun". Blue with 4" barrel. The action on it was so rough, you could pull the hammer back about half-way, take your thumb off the hammer, and it would stay right there. The hammer wouldn't fall forward back to the rest position. My brain had a hard time processing what my eyes were seeing.

Sent it back to Smith and they repaired it. Eventually traded it on another handgun because I never shot it that much.