Cops Can't Shoot! - Minor Rant

[Kan S LaTrans]

I am sure a lot of you are also tired of hearing that particular refrain, or at least seeing it on interwebz forums.

Tonight...I shot a steel match in Phoenix. It's one of my regular weekly matches. My sons were both able to come shoot it too. Usually only my oldest can shoot this one with me because my youngest is still on FTO (he graduated from the academy 2 months ago) and usually works Thursday nights. My oldest works for another agency and has been on for 4 years.

Anyway....there are five of us who shoot together. Myself, my sons, and two or three other badges from other agencies. We have a good time. We travel to weekend matches in Payson, Prescott, and Catalina AZ three to four times a week.

My daughter, who is 14 and a GREAT competitive shooter in her own right shoots with us at least once a week. She is shooting a 9mm 1911 that I built her for her 14th birthday in Single Stack.

Tonight, there were seven of us total. We for there a bit later than normal because my oldest son was held up with paperwork. We were under the ramadas, loading magazines, smoking cigars, and giving other shooters we know from years of doing this a weekly ration of good natured shit. A lifted oil burning Chevy pulls in, rolls coal, and four guys climb out. They are new faces. All of them ate totally tacticooled out. I mean, they had all the 5.11 gear, Oakley shades, sleeve tatts and their carry gear was all from "tacticool dood operators operating operashunally dot com"...(eye roll). They go to the stat shack, get their dance cards and start talking smack about how they were going to dominate tonight and how they heard some cops shot at this match and how......"cops can't shoot" and how they would "embarrass any cops that showed up".

My daughter started to say something, but I gave her "the look" and she quieted down. A lot of the other shooters were rolling their eyes too. Some were done shooting, some were getting ready to shoot, and some were waiting to see what happened.

Anyway, we started "up top" which is where Stage 4 and Stage 3 are...up a hill to the upper practical range...and if you start there, you can finish on 1 and 2 which have better light as the sun goes down.

My group started on 4. It was pretty vanilla. My oldest son beat me, I beat my youngest, one of the guys we shoot with beat all of us...and my daughter killed it. She turned in a better time that everyone but her "Uncle Randy". That girl can run her 1911.

The tacticool doods were stacked up behind us, watching us shoot and I caught bits of "....tactically speaking, this is....blah blah blah". We went to 3, put our cards in and I watched the tac-doods shoot. I an say one thing. Everything they learned about shooting, they learned from YouTube or from some video game. They looked like a bunch of TV Seals crossbred with monkeys fucking footballs shooting guns. I mean, it was like....BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG HIT BANG BANG BANG BANG HIT...

They were going from low ready, to shooting, to high compressed ready, to scans....basically doing the ENTIRE ballistic ballet that looks cool on TV...but has no place in a fight.

We were all waiting on 3, and the group in front of us finished up, so us and the tac-doods were there together congratulating one another on how "badass" they shot and how one of them "operated that bitch". More eye roll. More cow bell. More...are you fucking serious.

Anyway...the group in front of us got done and we started to shoot. I went was first in the box. It was a real simple 2-popper one plate rack move 2 popper one plate rack with a mandatory reload between your first and last shot. With no misses, it would be sixteen rounds, and usually could be done without a reload, but this one had a mandatory. I shot the first 8 reloaded on the move, shot the last 8. 16 rounds, cleaned it, 6.9 seconds. My oldest did it in 6.4, daughter did it in 7.4...and the rest of us were all in the middle and within about 2 seconds of one another.

The fastest I saw one of the tac-doods do it was 12.6 seconds. Eye roll.

We move down to 2 shoot it before the tac-doods come down the hill. Stage 1 is stacked up, so we are waiting to finish and the tac-doods come up and they are STILL talking shit. Stage 1 has not one, but two mind ya...TWO Texas Stars which are kind of my specialty. I fucking love them. I mean, I get a stiffy shooting the stars.

My group shot them well. I let the tac-doods go ahead of me because I had to go over the the restroom. I came back, and the loudest of the tac-doods was spoting off about something. Anyway...he emptied THREE mags on two stars and both mags had +5 Taran base plates on them.

I stepped up...10 plates, eleven rounds (I had one miss)...no reload needed on my Glock 17.

I quietly walk away. We drop our cards, go to safety and swap out match guns for carry guns and carry mags...and head back to the ramada to have a cigar and say goodnight to the other old hats.

The tac doods are there. One of them pipes up and says "Where are all the cops, I wanted to show them how to shoot".

My daughter said..."You mean you'd show them how not to shoot. Because...Dude, you all just got beat by a bunch of cops...and a 14 year old girl".

Priceless.

[ReverendMeat]

and how did the dudes respond?

[olstyn]

Small sample size and all that, plus of course it somewhat self selects to those who care about shooting, but all of the cops I've shot USPSA with have known how to shoot. Their skill levels have ranged from being slower than me (I'm a middle/upper C class in Production, so nothing special) but shooting almost 100% alphas up through at least a few of them being Ms and GMs who make everybody else look like they're standing still. I can't remember overhearing anyone at the places I shoot giving any of them shit like that. Some people are just stupid, I guess. Good on your daughter for sticking it to them. :)

[mmc45414]

Dude, you all just got beat by a bunch of cops...and a 14 year old girl".
Who is probably gonna end up being a cop... :)

More and more I think (as I mature) shooters are shooters, some are cops.

[HCountyGuy]

Please tell me they came in at like dead last. God I hate arrogant pricks like that. Should’ve offered to have your 14 y/o teach their knuckle-dragging asses how to actually shoot, but it’d likely have been a huge waste of time.

Let me guess, each “operator” was running a Zevved-out Glock with cheesegrater porting and the biggest legal mag extensions they could run. Oh and Ghost ring sights too, can’t forget those.

Same type of guys who would show up to an intro to carry class in full battle rattle.

They should be made to turn in their guns after such performances and be relegated to nothing more than a marshmallow launcher until they can demonstratively unkitten themselves.

[Kan S LaTrans]

and how did the dudes respond?

One of them started with a "Yeah but..."

But the loudmouth of the group just stormed off muttering.

[Kan S LaTrans]

Small sample size and all that, plus of course it somewhat self selects to those who care about shooting, but all of the cops I've shot USPSA with have known how to shoot. Their skill levels have ranged from being slower than me (I'm a middle/upper C class in Production, so nothing special) but shooting almost 100% alphas up through at least a few of them being Ms and GMs who make everybody else look like they're standing still. I can't remember overhearing anyone at the places I shoot giving any of them shit like that. Some people are just stupid, I guess. Good on your daughter for sticking it to them. :)

My sons...both of them shoot Steel, 3 Gun, and USPSA in duty gear. I did too before I retired. Now, I use regular carry gear...a pair of open top mag pouches (mule skin), and an open top strong side pancake holster (mule skin), or a strong side IWB. I always figured that I would be in duty gear when the balloon went up, so do they. Now, I am probably going to be carrying concealed in carry gear if the shit show starts...shoot what ya carry...is my philosophy.

I quit shooting IPSC 25 years ago when it became an equipment race. I shoot USPSA or PRODUCTION in Limited with guns I will carry. My Glocks are all stippled because I like the rough texture, but hate skateboard tape, and I use Gen 3 exclusively because I like them best. I grind off the finger grooves because I have giant wookiee mitts and the finger grooves hit me right in the joints of my fingers. All sensible mods. My triggers are 3.5lb Ghost Rocket connectors with a extra power striker spring which gives me a 4.5lb trigger with a fast reset. 4.5lbs is more than defensible in a carry gun. Both my sons work for Glock agencies. My oldest carries a Glock 21 Gen 4, my youngest carries a Glock 34...both are in factory trim because that's policy in their departments.

My daughter was shooting a Springfield Armory 5" 1911 MilSpec in 9mm that I built for her. McCormick Beavertail, Wilson trigger, C&S Hammerm Sear, Disconnector, and a set of HiViz sights. She was using a mule skin OWB holster with FBI cant, and slight drop loop.

These guys had a mixture of Uber Tacticool Serpa, Blade Tek, thigh holsters, and one had an unknown brand kydex. Their guns were a mixture of Glock, Hk, M&P CORE, and one had an FN 509. But they had on ALL the cool guy tactical clothes and shit.

Yeah...my daughter is a female version of me. She takes zero shit from people. She's a great kid, she has manners, she is polite, she is smart....but she will NOT tolerate asshat boys shit talking her. She is daddy's girl for sure.

[Kan S LaTrans]

Who is probably gonna end up being a cop... :)

More and more I think (as I mature) shooters are shooters, some are cops.

She keeps threatening to go into LE. I keep telling her NOOOOOOOO....go to medical school like mom!

Then she gets a mischievous grin and says....YEAH! Then I'll be a SWAT medic like Dr Carmona!

The girl wants me to have a heart attack.

[Kan S LaTrans]

Please tell me they came in at like dead last. God I hate arrogant pricks like that. Should’ve offered to have your 14 y/o teach their knuckle-dragging asses how to actually shoot, but it’d likely have been a huge waste of time.

Let me guess, each “operator” was running a Zevved-out Glock with cheesegrater porting and the biggest legal mag extensions they could run. Oh and Ghost ring sights too, can’t forget those.

Same type of guys who would show up to an intro to carry class in full battle rattle.

They should be made to turn in their guns after such performances and be relegated to nothing more than a marshmallow launcher until they can demonstratively unkitten themselves.

The scores haven't been posted yet. That match doesn't use Practiscore...so results usually get posted in 48 hours or so. It's a STEEL match based on USPSA, but with a mix of steel and paper. I prefer straight USPSA and a good IDPA match but it's the only match in the valley on Thursdays. Last night was all steel, no paper. It was all plates, poppers, Texas stars, and large and small steel.

They sure burned a LOT of ammo for the relatively low round count of the match. There was a lot of BANGIN for the low amount of CLANGIN.

[Kan S LaTrans]

Here's a loud mouth pud who showed up at a 3 Gun match in Prescott in March. He works at an LGS in Tucson and is one of those gun counter commandos who has an opinion on EVERYTHING and starts EVERY sentence with "Tactically speaking...." and "Cops can't shoot..."

The first pic is him fumble fucking his rifle...and the second one is where ge got DQ'd for letting a round go over the barricade and over the berm.

[Peally]

There are a lot of retards out there, it's unfortunate that a few showed up to your match. Cops are people (and not hardened infantry), and the fact that almost no one in general can shoot really well simply carries over to that field like any other.

Overweight guys showing up with egos and tactical gear immediately have their douche card vigorously punched on visual, and in my experience they're exclusively not police, military, or anything remotely requiring that style of gear. It's not even remotely necessary for shooting matches regardless. Only thing left after noticing it is to crush their pathetic shooting and rub it in as much as possible. They'll either shut up and learn or go the fuck away forever, and either one is a happy ending :)

Good on you for going out with your buddies and daughter and actually having a good time. You're also a more humble man than I, I'd be taking pictures and posting that shit all over Doodie Project :D

[Matt Helm]

^ ^ ^. +1

[taadski]

Good romper room material...

[Zincwarrior]

Good on your daughter. Raise 'em to be fierce!

[okie john]

Yeah...my daughter is a female version of me. She takes zero shit from people. She's a great kid, she has manners, she is polite, she is smart....but she will NOT tolerate asshat boys shit talking her. She is daddy's girl for sure.

Great story.

You're gonna love it here.


Okie John

[JRB]

...ballistic ballet...
I am *definitely* stealing this.

Based on your description, I have a good feeling that your daughter is going to be A-ok regardless of her chosen career path.


Here's a loud mouth pud who showed up at a 3 Gun match in Prescott in March. He works at an LGS in Tucson and is one of those gun counter commandos who has an opinion on EVERYTHING and starts EVERY sentence with "Tactically speaking...." and "Cops can't shoot..."

The first pic is him fumble fucking his rifle...and the second one is where ge got DQ'd for letting a round go over the barricade and over the berm.

I honestly didn't know they made the 5-color desert aka "chocolate chips" in sizes that big.

The pic also illustrates a hard truth. If the angle of your front plate exceeds a 25* angle from vertical - you need a gym membership, not a plate carrier.

[nate89]

Stories like this make me smile. I managed a gun range for awhile and saw plenty of guys like that show up. I even ran an outlaw USPSA match once a week for a few years. Most of that genre of shooter would never show up. The one's that did never did very well (and would refuse any advice from anyone, including M and GM people who really have a knack for teaching).

I'm all about people doing what makes them happy when it comes to shooting. You want to go to tactical band camp, be my guest. As long as you are safe, enjoy. It's the douchebag attitudes that I despise.

[RevolverRob]

If the angle of your front plate exceeds a 25* angle from vertical - you need a gym membership, not a plate carrier.

Awesome, I've got another 12.5º to go!

___

All of this is why I prefer a quiet place, far away from the mouth breathers, for shooting. The farther, the better.

And in my experience - if it's not the Tacti-Bros it's the Gangsta-Bros and they all suck.

[HCountyGuy]

Awesome, I've got another 12.5º to go!

___

All of this is why I prefer a quiet place, far away from the mouth breathers, for shooting. The farther, the better.

And in my experience - if it's not the Tacti-Bros it's the Gangsta-Bros and they all suck.

You forgot the “I’ve been around guns my whole life” crowd and their inability to produce anything that might be called a grouping by the loosest definition.

[Nephrology]

My daughter, who is 14 and a GREAT competitive shooter in her own right shoots with us at least once a week. She is shooting a 9mm 1911 that I built her for her 14th birthday in Single Stack.

[...]

My daughter said..."You mean you'd show them how not to shoot. Because...Dude, you all just got beat by a bunch of cops...and a 14 year old girl".

Priceless.

Just FYI, you're a pretty fuckin great dad.


Here's a loud mouth pud who showed up at a 3 Gun match in Prescott in March. He works at an LGS in Tucson and is one of those gun counter commandos who has an opinion on EVERYTHING and starts EVERY sentence with "Tactically speaking...." and "Cops can't shoot..."

The first pic is him fumble fucking his rifle...and the second one is where ge got DQ'd for letting a round go over the barricade and over the berm.

LOL, he should probably lose just a little more of that gut before he opens his mouth again

[Clusterfrack]

We have 3 LEO USPSA Grandmasters locally. Only the most clueless individual would say cops can’t shoot.

[hufnagel]

LOL, he should probably lose just a little more of that gut before he opens his mouth again

Negative, ghostrider. That's Organic Body Armor. It's the latest trend.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

We have 3 LEO USPSA Grandmasters locally. Only the most clueless individual would say cops can’t shoot.

“Only the Sith deal in absolutes!”

I think that the premise that, “cops can’t shoot,” isn’t completely untrue...some of the best shooters I know are cops. And some of the worst shooters I know are cops.

Like the general public, many cops have an inflated sense of preparedness. The difference is that cops HAVE TO go into the belly of the beast, as a function of their job description. So the likelihood of cops getting into a tangle involving gunplay is good.

I’m continually amazed, when I qualify or train with other cops, at the level of misinformation that many unfortunately operate under. At my last qualification, there were a number of guys who told me that I shouldn’t shoot 100% on qualifications, because that could be used against me in the event that I was involved in a, “bad shoot.” It’s like the, “bro-science,” of shooting...bad information that gets passed on like a busted meme.

I set the bar high for myself, as a matter of personal pride, and also because of my obsession with precision. If I am in the position to call 911 for help or another unit for backup, I want the guy/gal that is coming to save me be a badass with a gun, have the wit of a Friar’s Club comedian, medic skills like an ER doc and the athleticism necessary to kick ass for several minutes without a break. Since that is a lofty order, I try and bring those skills to the scene myself. I recommend all of my police peers to do the same.


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[Mike C]

Kan S LaTrans you need to buy that young lady an upgrade after a performance like that. Time to take her back to the gun store or maybe get her some Gucci parts/custom work for that 1911.

[HCountyGuy]

“Only the Sith deal in absolutes!”

I think that the premise that, “cops can’t shoot,” isn’t completely untrue...some of the best shooters I know are cops. And some of the worst shooters I know are cops.

Like the general public, many cops have an inflated sense of preparedness. The difference is that cops HAVE TO go into the belly of the beast, as a function of their job description. So the likelihood of cops getting into a tangle involving gunplay is good.

I’m continually amazed, when I qualify or train with other cops, at the level of misinformation that many unfortunately operate under. At my last qualification, there were a number of guys who told me that I shouldn’t shoot 100% on qualifications, because that could be used against me in the event that I was involved in a, “bad shoot.” It’s like the, “bro-science,” of shooting...bad information that gets passed on like a busted meme.

I set the bar high for myself, as a matter of personal pride, and also because of my obsession with precision. If I am in the position to call 911 for help or another unit for backup, I want the guy/gal that is coming to save me be a badass with a gun, have the wit of a Friar’s Club comedian, medic skills like an ER doc and the athleticism necessary to kick ass for several minutes without a break. Since that is a lofty order, I try and bring those skills to the scene myself. I recommend all of my police peers to do the same.


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This.

Most officers are content with passing (some just barely) the rather pitiful qualification courses (generally) they’re forced to shoot once or twice a year. The percentage who go out and truly train up is still rather saddening.

As for the “Don’t shoot 100%” advice, I can remember hearing that same tidbit from a detective mentor of mine back when I was an Explorer. “Don’t shoot expert because if you get in a situation and miss some lawyer will use it against you.”

[Sherman A. House DDS]

This.

Most officers are content with passing (some just barely) the rather pitiful qualification courses (generally) they’re forced to shoot once or twice a year. The percentage who go out and truly train up is still rather saddening.

As for the “Don’t shoot 100%” advice, I can remember hearing that same tidbit from a detective mentor of mine back when I was an Explorer. “Don’t shoot expert because if you get in a situation and miss some lawyer will use it against you.”

Right on! I started out as an Explorer too. It’s a good path.


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[TCB]

Most cops (at least at my Agency) can’t shoot judging by the guys next to me at quals over the years and feedback from our FI’s. But...cops who show up at USPSA matches tend to be a huuuuge exception to that rule. Also, if you want to see some really wacky stuff at a match head on down to the 2 gun action challenge at Pima...it’s a pretty fun match but...whoa! There is some serious weird (“tacticaly”?) stuff going on with the folks who show up. It’s like a buzzaro dress up day for some of thoes guys.

[willie]

I always encourage young officers that I know to train as much as they can in the shooting hobby. The teacher in me makes me point out that shooting skills, although essential, are one of several skills that cops must have. I like to say that common sense goes a long way in any profession.

[GuanoLoco]

Much like the general population, there is a huge disparity between people who train and compete and people who don’t.

Cops are no exception.

What I don’t understand is the LEO management idea that this is in any way acceptable, but what do I know about their pressures and constraints.

[M2CattleCo]

Some people can shoot, some can’t. It’s aptitude and motivation.

I will say that a friend of mine just graduated from a police academy and she got top shot or whatever they called the best shooter. I have a range here at the office and she came over to shoot her new Glock 17 and I can tell y’all that she has NO business handling a gun on her own. Beyond pathetic.

I used to shoot a lot competition around South Texas and there is always a smattering of local and Federal LE that would come shoot. Not a lot of talent from that pool, but some SWAT guys from Austin used to come down and stop everyone!

[Drang]

What I don’t understand is the LEO management idea that this is in any way acceptable, but what do I know about their pressures and constraints.
When I asked my father why he didn't go for Inspector (Detroit PD equivalent of Captain) he said "Because lieutenant is as high as you can get without being a politician". (Which, 30 years later, was my explanation for why I didn't make it past Sergeant First Class, but never mind.)

So my theory, FWIW, would be that "LEO management" is afraid of the optics of trying to maintain high standards of marksmanship and general combatives skill, from a "maintaining staffing levels" POV as well as PR/PC.

Also, the term "LEO Management" may be an issue in and of itself: Too much management, not enough leadership.

[OlongJohnson]

Negative, ghostrider. That's Organic Body Armor. It's the latest trend.

Third hand info, but I've heard of a bad guy who was so fat that when he took one or more .45 Gold Dots to the chest, he dropped to his knees and put his hands up. I gathered that cellulite can simulate ballistic gel reasonably well.

[Beat Trash]

I am sure a lot of you are also tired of hearing that particular refrain, or at least seeing it on interwebz forums.

The tac doods are there. One of them pipes up and says "Where are all the cops, I wanted to show them how to shoot".

My daughter said..."You mean you'd show them how not to shoot. Because...Dude, you all just got beat by a bunch of cops...and a 14 year old girl".


A most excellent response from your daughter...

[Greg]

28268

Yes, the speech bubble coming out of his ass is intentional.

[BigD]

The tacticool doods were stacked up behind us, watching us shoot and I caught bits of "....tactically speaking, this is....blah blah blah". We went to 3, put our cards in and I watched the tac-doods shoot. I an say one thing. Everything they learned about shooting, they learned from YouTube or from some video game. They looked like a bunch of TV Seals crossbred with monkeys fucking footballs shooting guns. I mean, it was like....BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG HIT BANG BANG BANG BANG HIT...


I'm at stage where I generally couldn't care less what others do. Dress up and dump mags at Yeager's place until cars catch on fire and you get a photo...fine with me. So ranting about this isn't really my thing. It probably would have bothered me when I was younger.

But I'm confused. Who were these guys? These guys were nobodies with no LEO/MIL experience who thought they were going to show up and show out?

[Trooper224]

I just let my shooting do my talking, tends to shut people up.

[Kan S LaTrans]

I'm at stage where I generally couldn't care less what others do. Dress up and dump mags at Yeager's place until cars catch on fire and you get a photo...fine with me. So ranting about this isn't really my thing. It probably would have bothered me when I was younger.

But I'm confused. Who were these guys? These guys were nobodies with no LEO/MIL experience who thought they were going to show up and show out?

If my keen investigative and observational skills are working above "neutral"....my guess is that at least one of them is a diesel mechanic or diesel truck salesman based on the stickers on the back of his oil burner.

[Kan S LaTrans]

“Only the Sith deal in absolutes!”

I think that the premise that, “cops can’t shoot,” isn’t completely untrue...some of the best shooters I know are cops. And some of the worst shooters I know are cops.

Like the general public, many cops have an inflated sense of preparedness. The difference is that cops HAVE TO go into the belly of the beast, as a function of their job description. So the likelihood of cops getting into a tangle involving gunplay is good.

I’m continually amazed, when I qualify or train with other cops, at the level of misinformation that many unfortunately operate under. At my last qualification, there were a number of guys who told me that I shouldn’t shoot 100% on qualifications, because that could be used against me in the event that I was involved in a, “bad shoot.” It’s like the, “bro-science,” of shooting...bad information that gets passed on like a busted meme.

I set the bar high for myself, as a matter of personal pride, and also because of my obsession with precision. If I am in the position to call 911 for help or another unit for backup, I want the guy/gal that is coming to save me be a badass with a gun, have the wit of a Friar’s Club comedian, medic skills like an ER doc and the athleticism necessary to kick ass for several minutes without a break. Since that is a lofty order, I try and bring those skills to the scene myself. I recommend all of my police peers to do the same.


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I shouldn’t shoot 100% on qualifications, because that could be used against me in the event that I was involved in a, “bad shoot.” It’s like the, “bro-science,” of shooting...bad information that gets passed on like a busted meme.

I'd be as happy as a puppy with two peckers if that particular bit of stupidity would die. That ranks right up there with old hats who still carried a drop gun, or the ones who would tell people "If ya shoot 'em on the porch, drag 'em inside before we get there".

Can you imagine for a second how this would go in court:

"Officer X. Is it true that you barely qualified to the minimum standards of your department?" - Shyster

"Uh...yes" - Officer X

"So, then by your admission, you are barely competent to served as an armed police officer in the city you are sworn to protect?" - Shyster

"Uhhhhh....well....uh...." - Officer X

"Or, could it be Officer X...and remember you're under oath...that you purposefully qualified with a lesser score than which you were capable of so that if you were ever sued, or accused of involvement of a bad shooting, that you would be held to a lower standard than an officer who qualified with a better score?" - Shyster

"Well....ah....er...." Officer X (who is now totally fucked)

"Which is it Officer X? Are you incompetent, or are you a liar who wantonly manipulated an official department score for your own benefit?" - Shyster

If anyone here doesn't think that a shyster lawyer with more than fifteen minutes experience hasn't heard every single old wive's tail from around a locker room is brand new. If that doesn't grab your attention, then remember...WE are under oath. THEY are not, and they are free to float any bullshit "theory" they want to in front of the jury right up until the judge tells them to stop.

No matter what happens, Officer X is in a career ending trick bag because he followed bad, stupid, old hat advice.

Ever hear of that old saying "Suck one cock, you're a cocksucker for life"? Same in the job..."Tell one lie, and you're a liar for life" and nothing is going to save your credibility on the stand.

Over my career I knew a lot of other officers who survived on pure shithouse luck, or because the chud they were up against just happened to suck more than they did at that particular moment. Luck is an asshole, and I have never trusted him.

[DacoRoman]

Here's a loud mouth pud who showed up at a 3 Gun match in Prescott in March. He works at an LGS in Tucson and is one of those gun counter commandos who has an opinion on EVERYTHING and starts EVERY sentence with "Tactically speaking...." and "Cops can't shoot..."

The first pic is him fumble fucking his rifle...and the second one is where ge got DQ'd for letting a round go over the barricade and over the berm.

Don't be a hater Bra! Even an ex Navy Seal can have a bad day...LMAO

[Kan S LaTrans]

Don't be a hater Bra! Even an ex Navy Seal can have a bad day...LMAO

Ex Harbor Seal maybe...Leader Of Pie Eating Team One.

I ain't even gigging the guy because he has some size on him. I know some big guys who can put lead on steel. Hell, I grew some around the middle after I retired...but it's the whole tacticool thing and the operator beard...but so far as I can tell...he don't know how to run a gun.

[Gadfly]

As a cop, I can say (as others here have) some cops can rock a pistol, and some are mediocre on a good day. The majority are average, just like in most activities in life.

I was at an IDPA match where I had to squad with some douche nozzles who spent the day talking about shooting Feds in the face because they were all going to round them up for the Obama/FEMA death camps. I just smiled and nodded a lot as did the guys who know where I work. It soured me on public matches where half the trucks have threeper and oath keeper stickers on the trucks...

I was sticking to shooting NRA TPC matches, as they are just cop matches. But the have been avoiding Texas the past few years for some reason.

Congrats on your daughter. Mine decided to be LEO as well. She seems very happy with it so far. But with only 4 years on, the grind has barely begun!


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[Kan S LaTrans]

My sons, my daughter, and I shot the USPSA match in Tucson today. A couple of DPS guys showed up with their new FN pistols (FN-40LS), shooting out of duty gear. One of them saw my t-shirt "Black Labs Matter - Paws Up Don't Shoot" and commented. We did the secret handshake, talked shop, swapped lies. Introduced my sons, they talked shop....blah blah blah. The crux of the matter is, both of them were new to competition, but came out because they wanted extra trigger time on their new guns. So, I give them credit. They both shot decently especially after the first couple of stages where they got over the nerves and settled down. They said they would be back to shoot again and were going to try to bring more troopers with them...so that's a good sign.

I actually try to be cool to all the newbies...especially the regular folks who show up and you can tell they're nervous. I mean, LEOs aside, I want people who carry a gun legitimately to know how to run them safely and USPSA and IDPA are pretty good places to learn.

[Kan S LaTrans]

As a cop, I can say (as others here have) some cops can rock a pistol, and some are mediocre on a good day. The majority are average, just like in most activities in life.

I was at an IDPA match where I had to squad with some douche nozzles who spent the day talking about shooting Feds in the face because they were all going to round them up for the Obama/FEMA death camps. I just smiled and nodded a lot as did the guys who know where I work. It soured me on public matches where half the trucks have threeper and oath keeper stickers on the trucks...

I was sticking to shooting NRA TPC matches, as they are just cop matches. But the have been avoiding Texas the past few years for some reason.

Congrats on your daughter. Mine decided to be LEO as well. She seems very happy with it so far. But with only 4 years on, the grind has barely begun!


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She keeps threatening me with it. I tell her like I told her brothers. Go to college...I will pay for it. If she goes to college and gets her degree I will smooth her way onto any department she wants to work for. I will even call in every fed favor I have earned for working fifteen years on task force assignments and get her application to the right desk if she wants to go to the dark side. But she has to get her degree first. At least that way, if she does it and decides it's not for her, she will have a foundation to take her somewhere else.

For the most part...the douche population is pretty low at the club matches around here. Once in a while...maybe one in every 4 or 5 matches a douche squad shows up, but they show their ass and never end up coming back because they get embarrassed. My friends and I always squad together...sometimes we get a onesy or a pair added to us...so it's not a problem. We have been shooting together for so long, everyone knows us anyway and it's a camaraderie thing with other shooters and squads, we all give one another good natured shit. The ones giving other cops the most shit is us...unless there are some smoke eaters coming out to shoot then we have to draw the blue-red line and give them grief. They have better PR than we do.

I remember the first time I stepped into the box. I was fresh out of the academy standing there in softball shorts a softball jersey, one of those stupid mesh and foam baseball caps...and my Sam Browne belt with a Model 19 Smith, two speedloaders in pouches, and four more stuck half and half over the top of my belt. I had butterflies going and I remember Robbie Leatham came over and said...."Don't do anything retarded. Aim your fucking gun, and press the trigger. Don't slap the shit out of it. Mostly, be safe and have fun". (Robbie is the most foul mouthed mormon you will ever meet). But when the "Shooter ready...stand by....BEEP" came, I shot smooth and clean. I didn't shoot fast, I just shot smooth...but I aimed, rolled the trigger, and reloaded as smoothly as I could. I didn't rush, I didn't over run my gun or myself and I just concentrated on getting my hits and making my reloads.

There were three or four other guys there shooting wheelguns. I was the only cop, and damned sure the only one using duty leather...but one guy Vic Pickett who was one of the best wheelgunners ever was there, so I started watching him. Les Benkston was there, and another guy who's name escapes me, but he was really good too. I came in dead last in REVOLVER, but not by a lot. The next week, I showed up with a duty belt, but with just my holster and four dual speedloader pouches on it (I figured that if the balloon was going to go up for me, it would be on duty and I would be using duty gear so I competed in duty gear). I went from being a good shooter on the PD range, to being a good all around shooter. I learned to do all the things we never learned in the academy in 1988, like shooting on the move, reloading...everything that wasn't "shoot two, load two" or 3, 7, 15, 25 yards from static at B27s.

People will say "Competishun will getz ya killed on da stretz"....but I don't see how learning to actually shoot is a bad thing.

[Stephanie B]

I just let my shooting do my talking, tends to shut people up.

It’s been my experience that people who are really good at something let their performance speak for itself.

(Most of the time.)

[LittleLebowski]

People will say "Competishun will getz ya killed on da stretz"....but I don't see how learning to actually shoot is a bad thing.

I don't think that anyone here will disagree with you.

[Trooper224]

It’s been my experience that people who are really good at something let their performance speak for itself.

(Most of the time.)

I just don't see the sense in engaging with a bunch of douche canoes, down at their level. Nor do I think it's commendable to encourage ones teenage daughter to do the same. That "oh yeah?" attitude really should be left in the grade school sand box. It's not as if you're going to change their minds on anything. Out perform them and they'll have an excuse for it. Never once have I seen one of them say, "You're right, I was an ass hat." or anything even close. By puffing your chest out in response you're just becoming one more in a bag of dicks. There's that old adage about rolling around in the mud with a pig...…….

[HCountyGuy]

I just don't see the sense in engaging with a bunch of douche canoes, down at their level. Nor do I think it's commendable to encourage ones teenage daughter to do the same. That "oh yeah?" attitude really should be left in the grade school sand box. It's not as if you're going to change their minds on anything. Out perform them and they'll have an excuse for it. Never once have I seen one of them say, "You're right, I was an ass hat." or anything even close. By puffing your chest out in response you're just becoming one more in a bag of dicks. There's that old adage about rolling around in the mud with a pig...…….

Not that I necessarily disagree but at some point fools like that need their egos checked and to be reminded of just where they fall in. I know in many street situations such call-outs can lend itself to getting beaten, stabbed or shot but at a point something’s got to give when it comes to raging arrogance going unchecked.

I know, it’s hard to be better or right if you’re dead.

[Trooper224]

Not that I necessarily disagree but at some point fools like that need their egos checked and to be reminded of just where they fall in. I know in many street situations such call-outs can lend itself to getting beaten, stabbed or shot but at a point something’s got to give when it comes to raging arrogance going unchecked.

I know, it’s hard to be better or right if you’re dead.

Only fragile egos are offended by arrogance. If it isn't causing you physical or material harm it really doesn't require a response. By responding, you don't put them in their place, that's a fallacy to believe that because, in their mind they'll justify anything. So, in the end you haven't achieved anything other than the venting of your own frustration, that your own ego has told you is necessary.

If you want to use the same yardstick of severity to measure predatory street behavior and ass hats at gun games then you're on your own.

My generation was taught an old axiom: sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

We seem to have totally forgotten that as a collective.

[GuanoLoco]

Not that I necessarily disagree but at some point fools like that need their egos checked and to be reminded of just where they fall in. I know in many street situations such call-outs can lend itself to getting beaten, stabbed or shot but at a point something’s got to give when it comes to raging arrogance going unchecked.

I know, it’s hard to be better or right if you’re dead.

It's been covered: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20555-The-Educational-Beat-Down

[HCountyGuy]

It's been covered: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20555-The-Educational-Beat-Down

Yeah I know. I actually have that thread saved.

[Kan S LaTrans]

I just don't see the sense in engaging with a bunch of douche canoes, down at their level. Nor do I think it's commendable to encourage ones teenage daughter to do the same. That "oh yeah?" attitude really should be left in the grade school sand box. It's not as if you're going to change their minds on anything. Out perform them and they'll have an excuse for it. Never once have I seen one of them say, "You're right, I was an ass hat." or anything even close. By puffing your chest out in response you're just becoming one more in a bag of dicks. There's that old adage about rolling around in the mud with a pig...…….

I am wondering if you read ANYWHERE in the entirety of the post where I said anything to them?

I am also wondering if you read anywhere where I mentioned that any of our group said anything while shooting?

I am wondering where "oh yeah" was mentioned in my post at all or even engaging them in any manner was mentioned at all?

And yet...again...I am still wondering where I "encouraged" my daughter so say anything? I don't recall it. Wait. Let me read my post again. (Interval). Nope. I never encouraged her to say a word, and in fact I specifically mentioned giving her "the look" to shut her down when she started to say something when they first showed up. So, if anything, I encouraged her to remain silent.

Yes...at the end of the match, she did say something in response to the last remark made by the loudmouth of the bunch after keeping her silence for the previous two hours. Good for her. She is not encouraged to take crap from douchebags, or from anyone for that matter, and she tolerated their crap longer than most people would.

I applaud her for having a limit to the amount of crap she is willing to tolerate, and I will never discourage her from standing up for herself in the face of it. The girl will not be a victim of old school misogynistic dinosaurs who think girls should be quiet, long suffering, demure, and not say shit if they have a mouthful.

And yes...my above answer may come off as sarcastic, but yours was seriously condescending and delivered from the saddle of a high horse, all while having the dual advantage of having every assertion you tried to make being incorrect.

[Dr. No]

Some people can shoot, some can’t. It’s aptitude and motivation.

I will say that a friend of mine just graduated from a police academy and she got top shot or whatever they called the best shooter. I have a range here at the office and she came over to shoot her new Glock 17 and I can tell y’all that she has NO business handling a gun on her own. Beyond pathetic.

I used to shoot a lot competition around South Texas and there is always a smattering of local and Federal LE that would come shoot. Not a lot of talent from that pool, but some SWAT guys from Austin used to come down and stop everyone!

Which match was that? I might know one of them boys. ;)

[Casual Friday]

I should have put my hip waders on before reading this thread. It got real deep real quick.

[M2CattleCo]

Which match was that? I might know one of them boys. ;)

South of Corpus at the Texas Carbine matches when they first started up. They had outlaw carbine and pistol matches. Fun bunch to shoot with.

[Kan S LaTrans]

South of Corpus at the Texas Carbine matches when they first started up. They had outlaw carbine and pistol matches. Fun bunch to shoot with.

Are those the matches that were held a CCPRC? We shot USPSA there a couple of times last February. If I remember correctly, they were run by Coast Bend, or Coastal Bend...something Bend. Those were good matches in spite of all the Texans there :p. j/k

[RevolverRob]

Only fragile egos are offended by arrogance.

To whit - it's been my experience that only fragile egos will usually call someone arrogant. So the two go hand-in-hand for sure.



My generation was taught an old axiom: sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

We seem to have totally forgotten that as a collective.

I was taught that axiom.

I was also taught the axiom, "Don't write a check with your mouth that your ass can't cash."

Which is one we really seem to have forgotten. There used to be a penalty for being stupid and it hurt, but we've largely eliminated the check on that. Now, I'm not advocating putting an ass whopping on every person running their mouth. I'm merely pointing out that even back when I was a kid (which wasn't that long ago). If you said the wrong thing to the wrong person, you'd end up having a knuckle sandwich or two for lunch. Such an approach worked really well for teaching people when to talk and when to shut up. Unfortunately, that all went away about 15-20 years ago and young adults today just simply haven't been smacked in the back of the head for being assholes and haven't learned (and probably won't).

[M2CattleCo]

Are those the matches that were held a CCPRC? We shot USPSA there a couple of times last February. If I remember correctly, they were run by Coast Bend, or Coastal Bend...something Bend. Those were good matches in spite of all the Texans there :p. j/k

Texas Carbine split off from Coastal Bend shooters in 2010 or so and started having their own matches South of town at Starry Range. Fun matches but the berms were mostly grass. Good place to wear plates!

[HCountyGuy]

Only fragile egos are offended by arrogance. If it isn't causing you physical or material harm it really doesn't require a response. By responding, you don't put them in their place, that's a fallacy to believe that because, in their mind they'll justify anything. So, in the end you haven't achieved anything other than the venting of your own frustration, that your own ego has told you is necessary.

If you want to use the same yardstick of severity to measure predatory street behavior and ass hats at gun games then you're on your own.

My generation was taught an old axiom: sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

We seem to have totally forgotten that as a collective.

I wouldn’t say I’m offended by their arrogance, just annoyed. There’s a difference between the two in that one is more indicative of a personal meltdown over a perceived transgression versus having a low threshold for stupidity and the problems it can spawn.

The kind of guys like who showed up at the match in the OP often overlap with those who become “tactical” instructors who have NO business trying to teach folks anything about firearms (think Voda). They’re the picture of Dunning-Krugerism at almost full power and help perpetuate the kind of stupid that makes gun owners at large look like a bunch of mouth-breathing 3%ers.

Given the recent antics by Sacha Baron Cohen making the heads of some 2A organizations look like complete morons, added to certain YouTube gun celebrities we don’t need the help of looking like bigger fools.

Their antics may not immediately and directly affect me, but crap rolls downhill and any ammunition given to those who want to eradicate the Second Amendment should be sternly criticized.

[Zincwarrior]

As a cop, I can say (as others here have) some cops can rock a pistol, and some are mediocre on a good day. The majority are average, just like in most activities in life.

I was at an IDPA match where I had to squad with some douche nozzles who spent the day talking about shooting Feds in the face because they were all going to round them up for the Obama/FEMA death camps. I just smiled and nodded a lot as did the guys who know where I work. It soured me on public matches where half the trucks have threeper and oath keeper stickers on the trucks...

I was sticking to shooting NRA TPC matches, as they are just cop matches. But the have been avoiding Texas the past few years for some reason.

Congrats on your daughter. Mine decided to be LEO as well. She seems very happy with it so far. But with only 4 years on, the grind has barely begun!


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Where was this Gadfly? in Austin Texas Tactical has matches with a good number of police and occasionally the Aggie shooting Team. CAPs has a fair number of them and its run by an ex Marine who would not put up with that nonsense. come shoot with us!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Texas Tactical has two Cedar Ridge Carbine matches this Saturday and the next! My usual group will have Feds, SWAT, local LEO and FOGs. We are pretty on the ball. Last match somebody shot the truck tire in a transition. Switch from your handgun to rifle. Shoulder rifle and ND into truck. Mike had to patch both sides of the tire as he told us. Guy was DQ!

We don't seem to get the kind of officers described here. Probably self-selection and that sort of talk would not be tolerated. I recall one carbine match (back at Hays County) where a dude in all black leather started questioning the sexuality of someone who wore an ear ring. Black Leather dude had to go home early.

[03RN]

I'll be honest. I've said that a lot. I also work pt at a range a couple departments qualify on. I also have several good friends on those departments who agree with that statement.

In terms of egos and annoying people at matches I'm sorry you guys need to deal with that. The guys I shoot with are good natured and helpful. I shoot occasionally with one of the countries best pcc shooters and even he will point out mistakes in a helpful manner.

[mongooseman]

Please tell me they came in at like dead last. God I hate arrogant pricks like that. Should’ve offered to have your 14 y/o teach their knuckle-dragging asses how to actually shoot, but it’d likely have been a huge waste of time.

Let me guess, each “operator” was running a Zevved-out Glock with cheesegrater porting and the biggest legal mag extensions they could run. Oh and Ghost ring sights too, can’t forget those.

Same type of guys who would show up to an intro to carry class in full battle rattle.

They should be made to turn in their guns after such performances and be relegated to nothing more than a marshmallow launcher until they can demonstratively unkitten themselves.

"..running a Zevved-out Glock with cheesegrater porting and the biggest legal mag extensions they could run.."

My vote for Today's Winner of the Internet!

[DacoRoman]

Ex Harbor Seal maybe...Leader Of Pie Eating Team One.

I ain't even gigging the guy because he has some size on him. I know some big guys who can put lead on steel. Hell, I grew some around the middle after I retired...but it's the whole tacticool thing and the operator beard...but so far as I can tell...he don't know how to run a gun.

LOL Classic, great sense of humor. .. I'm glad that you picked up on my deliberate misspelling.

It is amazing how clueless and unskilled some people can be, and yet be, well clueless and oblivious about it! I am sure that it is like you wrote in your initial post, these people don't take any real instruction, but sort of mimic the moves they see the cool "operators" do. I guess it is hard to be serious, attentive, diligent and humble, and a lot easier to be a jerk off.

By the way I'm in Athens GA, but we may be moving to the Tucson area in about a year. How is the training/competition scene out there? (Edit: I thought I read that you did a match in Tucson).