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jetfire
02-20-2012, 12:52 PM
Who's going? I'm going. Anyone else?

KeeFus
02-20-2012, 05:06 PM
No, I wish. Couple of predictions though. Vogel...SSP DC...does anyone doubt that?

Brevit with the upset in ESP with Allen and Carrell finishing close along with Perry and Wright. Honestly, any of these guys can win this division but Brevit is smokin' at the moment.

CDP is a freaking toss up but I think Giddings will have the DC...:cool: Kirts is really hot at the moment and shooting like a mad man. You are in a tough division but you can do it!

ESR, Miculek...although Scott Warren is listed under ESR (he was shooting ESP 2 weeks ago @ NC Ironman) so you can never count him out.

SSR...Lentz.

http://www.matchreg.com/sw/02-23-12statusdiv.htm

jetfire
02-20-2012, 07:41 PM
Honestly, with the lineup in CDP at this match, if I walk home with a top 10 I'll be happy, I'll be ecstatic with a top 5, a top 3 would mean I'd levitate around for a week, and a win would probably cause me to die on the spot of a heart attack.

rsa-otc
02-20-2012, 08:11 PM
What about McGinty in ESP? Coming off his division win at the Worlds.

jetfire
02-20-2012, 08:20 PM
I really think that CDP and ESP are pretty much anyone's game, since any of the top guys listed there has a chance of taking home all the glory. SSP is going to be Vogel unless something really weird happens.

m91196
02-20-2012, 08:24 PM
Who's going? I'm going. Anyone else?

SO'ing.

Stages look good, Franks matches always do.

Buckland on his home range or Glen will give you a run.....

jetfire
02-20-2012, 08:34 PM
I will say that Buckles might get confused and try to stick a speedloader in his gun, plus I can heckle him about doing worse on Top Shot than I did.

jlw
02-20-2012, 08:48 PM
I will say that Buckles might get confused and try to stick a speedloader in his gun, plus I can heckle him about doing worse on Top Shot than I did.


Ouch.

jetfire
02-20-2012, 08:50 PM
I should have mentioned that Craig is a friend of mine and the heckling is mutual since he kicked my ass at last year's Bianchi Cup.

KeeFus
02-26-2012, 10:02 AM
Results?

NEPAKevin
02-26-2012, 10:32 AM
This was posted on a thread on the IDPAforum (I should probably mention that this came from Sharon Burwell's Facebook page) Sounds like the full results are not yet online.

CDP: Glenn Shelby
ESP: Dan "The Legend" Burwell
SSP: Robert Vogel
ESR: Jerry Miculek
SSR: Joe Linskey

High Senior: James Martino
High Lady: Randi Rogers
High LE: Robert Vogel
High Press: Scott McGregor
High Industry: Dave Olhasso
High Intl: Juan Carlos Gonzalez Valdez
High Junior: Tori Nonaka
High Military: Rob Tate
High Distinguished Senior: Ray Duroy
Most Accurate - Dean Brevit

m91196
02-26-2012, 07:08 PM
I got a bump to Master and I would like to give credit to ToddG's AFHF and adopting his "press out" over the
last 9 months.

Thanks ToddG

jlw
02-26-2012, 07:45 PM
I got a bump to Master and I would like to give credit to ToddG's AFHF and adopting his "press out" over the
last 9 months.

Thanks ToddG


Congrats!!

KeeFus
02-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Results: http://www.matchreg.com/results/02-23-12.htm

jlw
02-26-2012, 09:52 PM
Why was Buckland DQed?

m91196
02-26-2012, 10:01 PM
Why was Buckland DQed?

AD during U&SC
Stage 10
His first of the day

Slavex
02-27-2012, 03:32 AM
nicely done Caleb.

jetfire
02-27-2012, 03:38 AM
Thanks, I'll have a full AAR on Monday on Gun Nuts.

ToddG
02-27-2012, 05:04 PM
I got a bump to Master and I would like to give credit to ToddG's AFHF and adopting his "press out" over the
last 9 months.

Congrats on the bump! I'd like to give credit to m91196 who has obviously been practicing seriously for the past nine months, which probably has a whole lot more to do with it than any one technique. You earned it, dude.

DonovanM
02-27-2012, 05:55 PM
Haha, oh man... only in IDPA is Nationals won by 20%.

Mr_White
02-27-2012, 06:00 PM
Haha, oh man... only in IDPA is Nationals won by 20%.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I am asking an honest question, not poised to take offense. Hopefully this is not asking you to expand on a contentious topic...

sm0kyjoe
02-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Can you explain what you mean by this? I am asking an honest question, not poised to take offense. Hopefully this is not asking you to expand on a contentious topic...

he means that Vogel didnt just win, he won overall by 20%. Notice the time and points down.. below shows him and closest 5 to him.. notice the next 5 are pretty close in scores .. it also baffles me that theres 2 guys in the top 6 unclassified o_O

1 Vogel, Robert 129.26 17 SSP/Master
2 Shelby, Glenn 154.91 46 CDP/Master
3 Olhasso, David 157.17 38 CDP/Unclassified
4 Burwell, Dan 158.05 21 ESP/Master
5 Meyers, James 163.59 16 SSP/Master
6 McGinty, James 163.63 50 ESP/Unclassified

m91196
02-27-2012, 06:39 PM
he means that Vogel didnt just win, he won overall by 20%. Notice the time and points down.. below shows him and closest 5 to him.. notice the next 5 are pretty close in scores .. it also baffles me that theres 2 guys in the top 6 unclassified o_O

1 Vogel, Robert 129.26 17 SSP/Master
2 Shelby, Glenn 154.91 46 CDP/Master
3 Olhasso, David 157.17 38 CDP/Unclassified
4 Burwell, Dan 158.05 21 ESP/Master
5 Meyers, James 163.59 16 SSP/Master
6 McGinty, James 163.63 50 ESP/Unclassified

Distinguished Masters show up as "unclassified" in the software our match results are posted on.

DM's are the IDPA major match winners. Only big three matches.

They compete outside the regular Masters

Thats why all the past winners look like they let their classifications lapse(not possible, but you get it)

sm0kyjoe
02-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Distinguished Masters show up as "unclassified" in the software our match results are posted on.

DM's are the IDPA major match winners. Only big three matches.

They compete outside the regular Masters

Thats why all the past winners look like they let their classifications lapse(not possible, but you get it)



Ahhh.. that makes more sense then, didnt think that would be the reason because Vogel was the world champ and they still had him listed as master.

jetfire
02-27-2012, 06:47 PM
One of the problems that IDPA faces is that there's no one near Vogel's skill level at the top right now unless Dave decides to start shoot IDPA again. The race is a lot closer in other divisions like ESP and CDP, but as of right now there just isn't anyone really capable of challenging Bob. Unless we start seeing some of the big name GMs decide to pin trophies on their walls of course.

DonovanM
02-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Can you explain what you mean by this? I am asking an honest question, not poised to take offense. Hopefully this is not asking you to expand on a contentious topic...

No offense taken, hell, I'm the one being an elitist and hating on IDPA.

My comment was made on my opinion that the organization and society of IDPA in general has a somewhat hypocritical attitude towards competition, which I think is reflected by the dearth of competitors at the higher levels. At USPSA Nationals there might be 25+ people placing within ~20% of BV or the other guys who shoot at his level.

jetfire
02-27-2012, 07:23 PM
My comment was made on my opinion that the organization and society of IDPA in general has a somewhat hypocritical attitude towards competition

I know for a fact that you're wrong, but would you care to elaborate?

DonovanM
02-27-2012, 07:53 PM
I know for a fact that you're wrong, but would you care to elaborate?

I'm sure it's nothing you haven't heard before. Sell me on it, I'd love to hear it.

jetfire
02-27-2012, 08:01 PM
At the organizational level, IDPA doesn't have a hypocritical attitude about competition; you see that bias introduced by local SO and staff. IDPA is currently re-writing and evaluating the entire rulebook to bring it inline with the organic changes that have occurred in the sport. Are there IDPA safety officers that hate "gamers" and whatnot? Sure. But that's not necessarily reflective of the culture at large; in fact the IDPA culture up here in the PNW is pretty unusual for IDPA clubs.

rsa-otc
02-27-2012, 08:25 PM
Caleb;

How much did the course design favor ESP/SSP over CDP? Or were most of the stages magazine capacity neutral?

NEPAKevin
02-27-2012, 08:48 PM
My comment was made on my opinion that the organization and society of IDPA in general has a somewhat hypocritical attitude towards competition, which I think is reflected by the dearth of competitors at the higher levels.

I agree with Caleb and would only add that my observation as to the "dearth" at the higher levels is that it has more to do with the the desires of those shooters who do not wish to shoot IDPA and the relative abilities of the various sports to fulfill them. To put it a different way, there are two sounds that you hear when a top shooter decides to leave IDPA to concentrate on other "better" venues. The first sound is that of the pitter patter of the feet of that shooter's entourage following him off the IDPA stage. The second is the roar of the vacuum he left being filled by the another shooter who seems quite happy to take his place. :)

jetfire
02-27-2012, 09:19 PM
Caleb;

How much did the course design favor ESP/SSP over CDP? Or were most of the stages magazine capacity neutral?

If anything, this course favored CDP over ESP. There were a lot of stages that required 3 hits on each target, which is really a CDP friendly stage.

DonovanM
02-28-2012, 12:45 AM
At the organizational level, IDPA doesn't have a hypocritical attitude about competition; you see that bias introduced by local SO and staff. IDPA is currently re-writing and evaluating the entire rulebook to bring it inline with the organic changes that have occurred in the sport. Are there IDPA safety officers that hate "gamers" and whatnot? Sure. But that's not necessarily reflective of the culture at large; in fact the IDPA culture up here in the PNW is pretty unusual for IDPA clubs.

That's good to hear... and it sucks because jackass SOs who enforce the rules differently based on skill level ruin it. I'll stop cluttering this thread with my own rants though :)

ToddG
02-28-2012, 10:14 AM
The simple fact is that very few top USPSA competitors want anything to do with IDPA anymore, and many people in IDPA -- from top to bottom -- are just fine with that. There was most certainly a bias against sponsored shooters from the very beginning. A decade ago when I was on the Beretta team, we were approached by the Board of Directors about the size of the logo on our match shirts! The Board actually considered making a rule to limit it (like golf). Because, you know, NASCAR shirts ruin all sorts of sports... like NASCAR. I mean, let's face it, NASCAR might finally get some attention and generate some revenue if only they'd tone down those sponsorships, right?

There are a handful of pretty consistent complaints from serious competitive shooters who give up on IDPA:

Random prize table doesn't reward performance. I personally think this one is pretty whiney coming from sponsored shooters. You're already ahead of the curve with a company that is covering at least some of your expenses. Now you're going to complain that you can't win a gun that, nine times out of ten, you'll just sell for cash anyway?
Rules are inconsistent. Anyone who has competed at major events around the country can tell you that one club's idea of "cover" can be far different than another's. The last Nationals I shot ('07) was almost humorous. Following the unofficial IDPA credo "always get permission from the SO first" I saw many top competitors trying to walk a fine line between showing the SO what they wanted to do (to make sure it wouldn't get a penalty) without looking like they were air gunning (which earns a penalty).
Judging is inconsistent and often weighted toward the non-professional. Again at the '07 Nationals I saw Gordon Carrell (shooting for S&W) get unfairly dinged during the standards stage. He had a shot that was right on the line and the SO did everything short of computer-aided analysis to determine whether it was in or out. For non-pro shooters, the SOs on that stage were never getting nose-to-cardboard and just following the IDPA rule that questionables were granted in the shooter's favor. I don't remember whether it was a half second or second difference and I don't remember if it would have affected Gordon's overall standing, but it sure put a sour note on the match for him and many of us who were present. I could go on and on with examples like this...
Some of the rules are just plain dumb. "Round dumping" is a penalty on stages listed as Vickers Count (which is defined as allowed to fire as many rounds as you want)... 'nuff said.


The irony is that after years of trying to blow off USPSA's top shooters, IDPA is now trying to fix that mistake by promoting Vogel as its poster boy. But while IDPA HQ is finally coming around to the realization that more top competitors means more publicity and more growth, the membership at large still has quite a few folks who are downright opposed to "sponsored shooters."

1986s4
02-28-2012, 11:54 AM
Todd, I agree with what you said. I've been competing in IDPA since the late 90's and I have seen plenty of "local rules". I also compete in USPSA and Steel Challenge and enjoy them for what they are, as I do with IDPA. As a "member-at-large" I enjoy seeing the flashy billboard sponsored shooters at major matches. I've spoken with some and always found them friendly and approachable. They are the top of the sport and I like rubbing shoulders with them.

jetfire
02-28-2012, 12:17 PM
I don't disagree that the membership of IDPA still has plenty of people that are "anti-gamer" and that tend to view a sponsor jersey as the mark of cain. I think however that those people are in the minority and on the decline, because of the culture shift in the shooting sports that has occurred over the last few years. When I started shoot IDPA in '08, the number of jersey-wearing shooters at state level matches was probably about a dozen or more. Now days, you go to a major match and at least 50% of the shooters there are wearing jerseys, and nearly all of the master class shooters are. In fact, when I think about the recent indoor nationals, I was the only Master class shooter I saw that wasn't wearing a jersey.

IDPA has had problems institutionally with how it handles competition, rules, and other things. And I can't speak to things that happened before I was a shooter, but I also can't ignore what IDPA's doing right now to improve their sport. A consistent rulebook, addressing some of the silly rules, these are good things for a sport that now has more members than USPSA.

I understand where Donovan is coming from, because our local IDPA culture up here in the PNW is actually pretty bad. There are a couple of really cool dudes, but for the most part it is an example of what's wrong with IDPA. There's very little cross-over between USPSA and IDPA up here, and a lot of that is because the local clubs seem to espouse that "anti-shooter" attitude. So while it is definitely a problem, it's also a problem being addressed (hopefully) by IDPA.

jar
02-28-2012, 03:43 PM
Todd's list of complaints nails it for me, especially the inconsistency of rules and judgement. I still shoot local club matches and the 3 majors a year that are local to me, but I won't consider traveling for an IDPA match. If I'm going to spend the time and money to go to an 'away' match, I'm going to one where I know what I'm going to get, namely USPSA or 3 gun. There's some truth to what Donovan said. IMO, an anti-IPSC attitude pervades the IDPA rulebook. I'm hoping the tiger teams and new rulebook will help. The new rulebook needs to focus on what IDPA is, and drop the borderline ranting about what IDPA is not.

The IDPA culture around here is kind of a mishmash. For a while, I considered both of my regular clubs to be clubs that do IDPA right. Lately they've both shifted a little bit, but in opposite directions. Club A has started to move toward everything people complain about IDPA for, namely overly scripted stages and making you do what they want with the WSB rather than stage design. Club B has gone more in the USPSA-lite direction. While that doesn't bother me much, some shooters have complained about it.

In a perfect world, the forthcoming new rulebook will help find a happy medium and get everyone on the same page. I'm not holding my breath.

shootist26
02-28-2012, 03:57 PM
I wonder what can IDPA do about course design and excessive scripting, or do you think it ultimately falls to the local MD to design quality courses?

I shot a low-light stage recently that forced you to engage 4 targets while on the move to cover, then re-engage the 4 targets from cover. They gave you a grand total of 5ft between your starting position and cover, so you had to do a ridiculous little jig to keep your feet moving while shooting 4 targets before you got to cover. If you hit cover before you were done shooting, you had to dance back out into the open again to finish shooting or you got a penalty.

Completely ludicrous.

jar
02-28-2012, 04:20 PM
I wonder what can IDPA do about course design and excessive scripting, or do you think it ultimately falls to the local MD to design quality courses?

I shot a low-light stage recently that forced you to engage 4 targets while on the move to cover, then re-engage the 4 targets from cover. They gave you a grand total of 5ft between your starting position and cover, so you had to do a ridiculous little jig to keep your feet moving while shooting 4 targets before you got to cover. If you hit cover before you were done shooting, you had to dance back out into the open again to finish shooting or you got a penalty.

Completely ludicrous.

I think you shot that at club A. Small world.

TheRoland
02-28-2012, 08:56 PM
I wonder what can IDPA do about course design and excessive scripting, or do you think it ultimately falls to the local MD to design quality courses?

I shot a low-light stage recently that forced you to engage 4 targets while on the move to cover, then re-engage the 4 targets from cover. They gave you a grand total of 5ft between your starting position and cover, so you had to do a ridiculous little jig to keep your feet moving while shooting 4 targets before you got to cover. If you hit cover before you were done shooting, you had to dance back out into the open again to finish shooting or you got a penalty.

Completely ludicrous.

Was it low-light with a seated start? I think I shot that stage, too, at Jar's "Club A"! Eating that exact penalty on that stage, and some other really subjective SOing, pushed me down the road towards USPSA. I get the sense "being pushed" that way is increasingly common in our area.

jetfire
03-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Unrelated to the issues with the sport itself, if you're wondering what kind of stages we had at the Indoor Nationals, IDPA.tv has released a match video features several different shooters from across the classes and divisions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNU2x1YV1s

I personally supervised this video, and I promise there's no round dumping in it. At all. ;-)

Fly320s
03-01-2012, 06:06 PM
That's because those three stages were limited Vickers.

Which reminds me... IDPA should just call it limited or unlimited.

jlw
03-01-2012, 06:55 PM
That's because those three stages were limited Vickers.

Which reminds me... IDPA should just call it limited or unlimited.


Or limited and Vickers. The whole Vickers and limited Vickers does seem a bit over the top.

Leozinho
03-01-2012, 09:37 PM
The simple fact is that very few top USPSA competitors want anything to do with IDPA anymore, and many people in IDPA -- from top to bottom -- are just fine with that. There was most certainly a bias against sponsored shooters from the very beginning. A decade ago when I was on the Beretta team, we were approached by the Board of Directors about the size of the logo on our match shirts! The Board actually considered making a rule to limit it (like golf). Because, you know, NASCAR shirts ruin all sorts of sports... like NASCAR. I mean, let's face it, NASCAR might finally get some attention and generate some revenue if only they'd tone down those sponsorships, right?

There are a handful of pretty consistent complaints from serious competitive shooters who give up on IDPA:

Random prize table doesn't reward performance. I personally think this one is pretty whiney coming from sponsored shooters. You're already ahead of the curve with a company that is covering at least some of your expenses. Now you're going to complain that you can't win a gun that, nine times out of ten, you'll just sell for cash anyway?
Rules are inconsistent. Anyone who has competed at major events around the country can tell you that one club's idea of "cover" can be far different than another's. The last Nationals I shot ('07) was almost humorous. Following the unofficial IDPA credo "always get permission from the SO first" I saw many top competitors trying to walk a fine line between showing the SO what they wanted to do (to make sure it wouldn't get a penalty) without looking like they were air gunning (which earns a penalty).
Judging is inconsistent and often weighted toward the non-professional. Again at the '07 Nationals I saw Gordon Carrell (shooting for S&W) get unfairly dinged during the standards stage. He had a shot that was right on the line and the SO did everything short of computer-aided analysis to determine whether it was in or out. For non-pro shooters, the SOs on that stage were never getting nose-to-cardboard and just following the IDPA rule that questionables were granted in the shooter's favor. I don't remember whether it was a half second or second difference and I don't remember if it would have affected Gordon's overall standing, but it sure put a sour note on the match for him and many of us who were present. I could go on and on with examples like this...
Some of the rules are just plain dumb. "Round dumping" is a penalty on stages listed as Vickers Count (which is defined as allowed to fire as many rounds as you want)... 'nuff said.


The irony is that after years of trying to blow off USPSA's top shooters, IDPA is now trying to fix that mistake by promoting Vogel as its poster boy. But while IDPA HQ is finally coming around to the realization that more top competitors means more publicity and more growth, the membership at large still has quite a few folks who are downright opposed to "sponsored shooters."

Todd nails it, as usual.

I'd add that the Taran Butler delayed DQ incident in 2005 did a lot to turn off USPSA shooters from wanting to crossover and fanned a lot of the IDPA vs USPSA flames. I'm not sure if I ever knew the exact story, but the gist is that Taran (wearing a IPSC World Shoot shirt) was DQ'd after shooting the complete match. He had already left the venue, and then the ROs got together and decided/realized he was pushing the envelope of the rules on each stage and DQ'ed him. Yet during the match he had only earned one procedural. Or something like that. Pretty shady.

I was shooting at IDPA at the time, and a lot of IDPA guys thought it was great that one of the big guns from USPSA that had come to win a National Championship got DQ'ed in such a manner.

jetfire
03-01-2012, 09:51 PM
Taran didn't shoot the 2005 Nationals. Unless IDPA went so far as to scrub his score from the record of the match, which is unlikely since they list the other DQs and DNFs on the scoresheet from 2005. Plus it seems odd that someone who was DQ'd in such a manner that you describe would come back to the very same match in 2006...and win ESP.

Leozinho
03-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Taran didn't shoot the 2005 Nationals. Unless IDPA went so far as to scrub his score from the record of the match, which is unlikely since they list the other DQs and DNFs on the scoresheet from 2005. Plus it seems odd that someone who was DQ'd in such a manner that you describe would come back to the very same match in 2006...and win ESP.

Yes, he did. As I said, it was shady. Wouldn't surprise me if IDPA purged his name from the scoresheet. Google it and you'll find some discussion about the DQ.

As far as it coming back in 2006...
Vengeance. Or, he's a class act and wanted to show that he personally had no hard feelings, even if the way he was treated contributed to the rift between IDPA and USPSA among other shooters? (I don't know.)

jlw
03-01-2012, 10:39 PM
I found a very lengthy thread on another forum from 2005 discussing the above mentioned DQ.

jetfire
03-01-2012, 11:06 PM
Apparently, I was mistaken and Taran did in fact shoot the 2005 Nats. I had to make a coupe of calls to confirm what hat happened and the incident in general.


Was it shady? Certainly. But IDPA isn't the same as they were in 2005. A lot of things have changed. But I was wrong about Taran, and I am disappointed that IDPA would go so far as to pull his name off the scores.

JAD
03-01-2012, 11:24 PM
I stopped shooting IDPA because of sponsored shooters. It was kind of the last straw. IDPA was a cute idea -- equipment rules that would make it attractive to new shooters, a focus on at least one version of realism, and a 'spirit of the game' that let the rules be a little subjective. It was fun like that for a little while, but it's a game, and playing a game other than to win is like fighting free market dynamics. Now, it's a little gimpy -- the rationalism of competition oriented shooters in conflict with a set of rules that distinguish themselves from uspsa in ways that now seem purely contrarian.

If I had time to shoot with others, I'd work to put together a little club exercise -- I really enjoy that. If I absolutely had to measure myself against others, I think I'd try pins or steel challenge.

Jon
Lifetime Member 00379.

DonovanM
03-02-2012, 01:34 AM
I personally supervised this video, and I promise there's no round dumping in it. At all. ;-)

So no Bob Vogel then? You cut out the only shooter who's worth watching?

:p

GOP
03-02-2012, 02:07 AM
I guess I don't understand the distinction between "USPSA shooters" and "IDPA shooters." To me, anyway, the key word there is "shooter." If I want to shoot USPSA, I'll shoot a USPSA competition. If I want to shoot IDPA, I'll shoot IDPA. I guess I don't see the point in a rivalry unless you are a world champion and actually have huge money involved.

At my local club, there is 1 sponsored shooter. He wins each match by 15%-20%. I haven't competed in a while, as I see no point in competing weekly at this point. I've hit some major PR's since my competition and I plan to go back and cut into his margin of victory. I personally love competing against someone like a sponsored shooter, as it gives me a very strong incentive to train harder and more efficiently. I guess I once again fail to understand any dislike toward "gamers."

jetfire
03-02-2012, 11:36 AM
Apparently, there are people that don't shoot both.

NEPAKevin
03-02-2012, 01:05 PM
As far as it coming back in 2006...
Vengeance. Or, he's a class act and wanted to show that he personally had no hard feelings, even if the way he was treated contributed to the rift between IDPA and USPSA among other shooters? (I don't know.)

I only met Taran once, at one of the Nationals held in Pa, but I would say class act and serious competitor. His squad was at my bay after the lunch break and I BSed with him for a little bit and he struck me as a genuinely pleasant individual but at the same time and intelligent and intense shooter.

GOP
03-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Apparently, there are people that don't shoot both.

Obviously I don't mind the distinction between shooters, I just don't see the need for a rivalry or an "anti-{insert association}" type of thing. If you are a top 30 or 40 competitor nationally, then yes, you probably have specific reasons for disliking a certain group. If not, why does it matter?

The anti-sponsored shooter thing seems almost like people are afraid of top notch competition. I have always liked to compete against the best. I may get destroyed, but at least I know I gave it my all against someone much better than me.

Wendell
03-02-2012, 01:22 PM
I found it perverse that the IDPA World match was held on the same weekend as the USPSA Nationals. Why would anybody schedule a conflict like that?

In Frostproof (after I'd brought up the subject) it was suggested that the conflict was created by IDPA...and on purpose.

There is some real enmity out there. It's sad.

jetfire
03-02-2012, 01:34 PM
In Frostproof (after I'd brought up the subject) it was suggested that the conflict was created by IDPA...and on purpose.

Suggested by whom, exactly? I've heard that rumor a dozen times now, and there's just no truth to it.

The thing that really grinds my gears is that the whole "USPSA vs. IDPA" thing is largely created by the shooters, and not the institution. Sure, in the past there may have been a bit of "we're doing it to be different from them", but any more IDPA acknowledges and respects the contributions of USPSA to the shooting sports at large. I've had extended conversations with the leadership at IDPA about this topic, and they're certainly not trying to grind any sort of axe with USPSA these days.

DonovanM
03-02-2012, 01:36 PM
I found it perverse that the IDPA World match was held on the same weekend as the USPSA Nationals. Why would anybody schedule a conflict like that?

In Frostproof (after I'd brought up the subject) it was suggested that the conflict was created by IDPA...and on purpose.

There is some real enmity out there. It's sad.

Now hold on. I'm not the biggest fan of IDPA and the culture it represents, but did anyone of any import whatsoever in either organization tell you this personally, or was this just third person speculation and hearsay (AKA people making s*** up)?

I really have a hard time believing there was any drama surrounding this, I think it was simply crap luck on both sides. Any USPSA competitor who also wanted to shoot the IDPA World Shoot were allowed to jump squads to shoot through all the stages so they could go to the IDPA match. Why would the USPSA MD's allow this if there was any hint of it being a spiteful measure?

jetfire
03-02-2012, 01:49 PM
A similar thing happened this year; USPSA scheduled the multi-gun Nationals on top of the NRA Annual Meetings; but you don't hear any crazy-ass conspiracy theories about that.

jlw
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Apparently, there are people that don't shoot both.


I've never shot USPSA. It's not that I have anything against it or its shooters in the least, but I just don't have the time or budget to do both.

jetfire
03-02-2012, 03:14 PM
A lot of it depends on what's available, as well. I know people that live in areas where there's no IDPA or no USPSA within a reasonable drive, so they're pretty much stuck with what they've got.

BN
03-02-2012, 03:50 PM
I found it perverse that the IDPA World match was held on the same weekend as the USPSA Nationals. Why would anybody schedule a conflict like that?

In Frostproof (after I'd brought up the subject) it was suggested that the conflict was created by IDPA...and on purpose.

There is some real enmity out there. It's sad.



I heard that they were both scheduled so far in advance that neither could be changed.

A few years ago, IDPA moved the date for the IDPA Nationals when they were scheduled for the same time.

I don't see any problem. We have a lot of crossover shooters in my area.

NEPAKevin
03-02-2012, 04:41 PM
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IeHJE_WKzXo/T1E98z2PCyI/AAAAAAAAAEk/rA2V_iPmvo8/s253/rodney_king.jpg

jlw
03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
A lot of it depends on what's available, as well. I know people that live in areas where there's no IDPA or no USPSA within a reasonable drive, so they're pretty much stuck with what they've got.


We have fairly active groups of both as well as a few other leagues in my area. The IDPA matches fit better with my schedule.

KeeFus
03-02-2012, 04:51 PM
Just read an email from Joyce Wilson. Dean Brevit, who posts here under "Caswell Ranch" was promoted to DM...his final score was 162.48. He worked for it, sending over 10,000 rounds down range in the weeks prior. Very nice accomplishment!

jetfire
03-02-2012, 05:03 PM
Nice! That 3% of the DC is a tough nut to crack.

KeeFus
03-02-2012, 08:12 PM
Nice! That 3% of the DC is a tough nut to crack.

Indeed. I fully expect him to show up at the Nationals in September and DM again in a different division.

Caswell Ranch
03-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the thumbs up guys, yes I will run against Vogal in SSP at the Nationals.

jlw
03-02-2012, 10:44 PM
Just read an email from Joyce Wilson. Dean Brevit, who posts here under "Caswell Ranch" was promoted to DM...his final score was 162.48. He worked for it, sending over 10,000 rounds down range in the weeks prior. Very nice accomplishment!


Thanks for the thumbs up guys, yes I will run against Vogal in SSP at the Nationals.


Congrats on the bump.

JulieG
03-03-2012, 10:40 AM
As a competition shooter who shoots a lot of different sports IDPA is the only game in town that is embracing change, asking its members what they want and is tackling the great www. through social media, you-tube, blogging etc. It's also the sport you'll be reading about if you subscribe to the Shooting/Outdoor/Tactical Wires because they are amping up their PR efforts. You put all these things together combined with the fact that the sport is the easiest (and least expensive) for new customers from the conceal carry market, IDPA is growing... FAST.

I have competed in IDPA for several years now and I found the subjectivity most frustrating. My first IDPA Nationals I encountered an SO that literally sucked 5 years of "fun in IDPA" away from me like a Pit of Dispair. This years IDPA Indoor Nationals was an absolutely BLAST. No one yelled at me. Every single SO treated me with respect and was friendly. Kudos to Frank Glover and the staff for designing the stages that were straight forward and simple but were challenging and fun at the same time. I shot poorly but I enjoyed every single stage and I think that's important for shooters of all levels.

As for top shooter participation, if shooters are sponsored by major manufacturers, I think we'll see a number of them return to IDPA. If that's the sports that's getting the press and it features the guns that manufacturers make, that only makes sense. It's not about prize tables, its about prestige for both the shooter and the company. As we have seen with USPSA in the past, companies don't have to put out press releases on their shooters. The sport does it for them. Or if the manufacturer sends one out, that's twice the exposure. If IDPA is successful in internet marketing and PR, it will be the "it" sport much like 3-Gun has become.

IDPA is easy for new shooters to start in - think the untapped conceal carry market. It's the easiest sport for gun manufacturers to justify sponsorship dollars. After all, its a sport that features the guns they make. IDPA has always been the most social of the action sports, from social events, hospitality, awards banquets and... people are always talking about it.

Just my thoughts on it. :)

m91196
03-03-2012, 01:54 PM
As a competition shooter who shoots a lot of different sports IDPA is the only game in town that is embracing change, asking its members what they want and is tackling the great www. through social media, you-tube, blogging etc. It's also the sport you'll be reading about if you subscribe to the Shooting/Outdoor/Tactical Wires because they are amping up their PR efforts. You put all these things together combined with the fact that the sport is the easiest (and least expensive) for new customers from the conceal carry market, IDPA is growing... FAST.

I have competed in IDPA for several years now and I found the subjectivity most frustrating. My first IDPA Nationals I encountered an SO that literally sucked 5 years of "fun in IDPA" away from me like a Pit of Dispair. This years IDPA Indoor Nationals was an absolutely BLAST. No one yelled at me. Every single SO treated me with respect and was friendly. Kudos to Frank Glover and the staff for designing the stages that were straight forward and simple but were challenging and fun at the same time. I shot poorly but I enjoyed every single stage and I think that's important for shooters of all levels.

As for top shooter participation, if shooters are sponsored by major manufacturers, I think we'll see a number of them return to IDPA. If that's the sports that's getting the press and it features the guns that manufacturers make, that only makes sense. It's not about prize tables, its about prestige for both the shooter and the company. As we have seen with USPSA in the past, companies don't have to put out press releases on their shooters. The sport does it for them. Or if the manufacturer sends one out, that's twice the exposure. If IDPA is successful in internet marketing and PR, it will be the "it" sport much like 3-Gun has become.

IDPA is easy for new shooters to start in - think the untapped conceal carry market. It's the easiest sport for gun manufacturers to justify sponsorship dollars. After all, its a sport that features the guns they make. IDPA has always been the most social of the action sports, from social events, hospitality, awards banquets and... people are always talking about it.

Just my thoughts on it. :)

A refreshing take from a respected competitor.

I feel this match is returning to a better place and a lot of that has to do with the MD and staff.

Mr. Glover provides cache and confidence that it will be interesting.

Maybe the entire Smith & Wesson Team will shoot it in the future.