CZ P09 ignition problems

[GJM]

Cajun called again today. Three different people went through my two P09 and one P07 pistols, post installation of the Pro kits, and none of them could make the trigger malfunction. They asked me to take them, try to make the problem happen, and in the mean time send back my three problem P09 pistols.

That lifter part is quite early in development, and not something that I see as a short term fix.

We also discussed this issue generally, and they said about one in ten stock guns coming in, exhibit the problem.

[miller_man]

I have never received any response from CZ-USA. I'd encourage everyone on this thread to contact CZ to bring their attention to this problem. I hope if enough people contact them, it may work. We all really like this pistol and would benefit greatly if this issue gets resolved.


I think this is probably a good step. As someone who recently invested pretty decently into the p-series pistols, I would hope CZ USA would begin to realize that they have to step up and make this right. Will be sending my email soon.

Although, thinking about contacting CZ USA, I emailed them weeks ago - asking about when I should replace my recoil spring. Never heard a word so far.

[GJM]

I received a box from CGW today with two P09 and one P07 with their Pro kit installed. Quick dry fire session showed no problem with the hammer stopping short. Checked my existing three P09 CGW pistols, and all exhibit the problem on demand. Sending those back to Cajun for their love. May be a while until I live fire the P07/09 pistols, as I am shooting a Glock in CO now.

[GuanoLoco]

It’s pretty clear that CZ uses a variety of diameter rollers to time the system, presumably to compenate for tolerances / tolerance stacking. Without testing this would be my first guess/step - try a size larger and a size smaller smaller rollers.

Who would have guessed it?

[Trukinjp13]

Who would have guessed it?

Like setting the timing on a healthy big block(or any engine lol)

But the timing is THE ignition in a engine. Too advanced or retarded and it aint going to be right. So if you can adjust roller sizes to change the “timing” in the omega system that would be slick.

[GJM]

I just hung up with CGW, as I was getting a return label to ship my three existing P09 lowers back to them to fix the ignition issue.

I believe this situation has created a high sensitivity and caused them to be looking at guns for this issue. They said they just had two guns come in, one OEM stock and another with the Pro kit, that were exhibiting the same problem. While initially they were focused on the lifter, they determined a better fix was to machine the sear instead. I believe they are thinking about whether they just use this as a fix on problem pistols, or manufacture a new part and make it generally available for sale.

I continue to believe CZ USA ought to get involved with this, given it is more than just my problem, and relates to tolerance stacking in individual pistols that could cause a pistol to not fire when intended.

[GuanoLoco]

I just hung up with CGW, as I was getting a return label to ship my three existing P09 lowers back to them to fix the ignition issue.

I believe this situation has created a high sensitivity and caused them to be looking at guns for this issue. They said they just had two guns come in, one OEM stock and another with the Pro kit, that were exhibiting the same problem. While initially they were focused on the lifter, they determined a better fix was to machine the sear instead. I believe they are thinking about whether they just use this as a fix on problem pistols, or manufacture a new part and make it generally available for sale.

I continue to believe CZ USA ought to get involved with this, given it is more than just my problem, and relates to tolerance stacking in individual pistols that could cause a pistol to not fire when intended.

This sounds quite reasonable. While I have suggested the roller, as a documented mechanism for controlling timing, is related, I also think that it is too simple and convenient of an explanation for what is likely a more complex issue.

I'm glad CGW is taking the issue seriously and hope CZ does the same.

[miller_man]

So pulling up this thread for good reason. I have just pulled out my P-07 to throw in the range bag for a range trip this coming week.

Was doing some dry practice with it and thought I noticed something odd on one of my presses of the trigger in DA. Sure enough, I was able to get the DA trigger to drop to half cock while slowly pressing the trigger - and yes with a healthy bit of sideways deflection. I was pretty shocked how easy it actually was to induce and repeat. I thought the problem was a lot more easier to brush off until it happened with my gun. Shame on me for just getting around to checking this issue with this pistol.

This is especially concerning because this p-07 is a backup for my chopped p-09 that I've started carrying. The p07 has stock parts minus trs, firing pin and spring and hammer spring. I will be calling CGW to see how there fix is coming along and also calling CZ usa to lay the problem pistol at their feet.

Also, forgot to add. I did have a CGW roller in my spare parts. My stock one in the gun was .215 and the CGW is .219 (prob .220/cheap calipers). Switched them out just to see if any difference - same results. Put stock part back in. Probably not enough difference in size - or to be honest, I don't understand all the things at work to figure out what it meant.

[Clusterfrack]

miller_man, can you do it without bumping your fingertip against the frame as you press slowly? My analysis is that sideways pressure has nothing directly to do with it. I can make my guns do it by pressing straight, and cannot make them do it if my finger is not wrapped deeply around the trigger so the tip bumps just as the sear releases.

[miller_man]

miller_man, can you do it without bumping your fingertip against the frame as you press slowly? My analysis is that sideways pressure has nothing directly to do with it. I can make my guns do it by pressing straight, and cannot make them do it if my finger is not wrapped deeply around the trigger so the tip bumps just as the sear releases.


Just spent about 2-3 minutes messing around with it - it appears you are spot on. I don't know that I can do it pressing straight, couldn't just now. But it is completely like you say - it appears my fingertip does have to contact the frame (which obviously makes the finger sunk quite deep).

It would not be a normal way that I would be pressing/contacting the trigger - but you never know.

I did spend a few minutes doing weak hand presses - with lots of sideways pressure from left side of gun (something I could see happening shooting weak hand) but didn't have any issues. Like you said , without the fingertip contacting it doesn't happen.

[s0nspark]

Just spent about 2-3 minutes messing around with it - it appears you are spot on. I don't know that I can do it pressing straight, couldn't just now. But it is completely like you say - it appears my fingertip does have to contact the frame (which obviously makes the finger sunk quite deep).

It would not be a normal way that I would be pressing/contacting the trigger - but you never know.


That mirrors my experience with the gun I could replicate this on. It was... a very artificial procedure for me.

I sink my trigger finger deep but never that deep. I had to rotate the gun somewhat sideways in my hand and press the trigger extremely slow before I could make this happen.

[GJM]

It seems like this problem is common to more P07/09 pistols than many of us would have thought a month or so back, when I first encountered it. I believe the reason why it is pretty unlikely to be encountered, is it only happens in DA when you press the trigger a certain way. I firmly believe the reason I happened to stumble onto it now, and not previously despite owning P07/09 pistols for years, was that I was shooting a P09 for USPSA, and as a result putting a very high round count through these pistols in dry fire, live fire practice and in matches. This upped the number of DA presses I put on these pistols, including in the weird positions we often start USPSA stages, with the stress that matches can provide.

I personally believe CZ has a big problem with the design of the P07/09, as you should not have to press a DA trigger on a pistol designed for defensive use in a certain way to make it go bang.

[s0nspark]

I personally believe CZ has a big problem with the design of the P07/09, as you should not have to press a DA trigger on a pistol designed for defensive use in a certain way to make it go bang.

It is certainly a problem, but to keep it in perspective... it is only a problem with some of the guns produced and, even then, it only seems to come into play under certain circumstances.

Now, of course, if it affects your gun(s) and those circumstances are likely for you... then, yes, I would say it is a big problem. ;-)

Given the variances I've seen with the particular guns I've owned, I think the root cause is that most CZ models are produced in a way that requires them to be tuned to run reliably.

I suppose it comes down to whether that is desirable/tolerable in a carry gun... for some the juice may not be worth the squeeze.

[Clusterfrack]

I personally believe CZ has a big problem with the design of the P07/09, as you should not have to press a DA trigger on a pistol designed for defensive use in a certain way to make it go bang.

I can understand why you say that. But, I and a bunch of others have pretty high round counts on our P07/09s, shoot under high stress, and weird positions, and cannot make the guns fail to fire. Sinking the trigger finger so deep that the tip bumps when the sear releases requires much bigger hands than I have, or a very contrived trigger press.

I’d like to see CZ address the issue, but it will not keep me from carrying the P07.

[GJM]

It is certainly a problem, but to keep it in perspective... it is only a problem with some of the guns produced and, even then, it only seems to come into play under certain circumstances.

Now, of course, if it affects your gun(s) and those circumstances are likely for you... then, yes, I would say it is a big problem. ;-)

Given the variances I've seen with the particular guns I've owned, I think the root cause is that most CZ models are produced in a way that requires them to be tuned to run reliably.

I suppose it comes down to whether that is desirable/tolerable in a carry gun... for some the juice may not be worth the squeeze.

If for example, Glock pistols exhibited this same issue at the same frequency we have seen just with the few P07/09 pistols here on PF, it would be the subject of a 60 Minures segment, and the Glock would be withdrawn from use by military and LE.

[s0nspark]

If for example, Glock pistols exhibited this same issue at the same frequency we have seen just with the few P07/09 pistols here on PF, it would be the subject of a 60 Minutes segment, and the Glock would be withdrawn from use by military and LE.

Perhaps, but look at all of the issues Glock has gotten a pass on over the years. Sig, as well.

No matter what platform you choose for defensive use, you are making trade-offs that you find palatable (hopefully sensible ones), and the days of being able to blindly trust any gun out of the box are well over IMO.

I find it interesting the way that people on this forum view things compared to how the gun community at large sees them. We are definitely more critical - rightly so - and (I would say) more opinionated... again, rightly so, because our opinions tend to be more fact-based and informed ;-)

In the end, I am of the opinion that whatever gun you trust your life to MUST be personally vetted in the configuration you actually will carry it in. My personal standard is 200 rounds of defensive ammo and 300 rounds of training ammo without any malfunctions. In cases where I have encountered an issue, the gun and ammo are reviewed and the count is reset. Guns that never pass this standard are never carried.

[Clusterfrack]

If for example, Glock pistols exhibited this same issue at the same frequency we have seen just with the few P07/09 pistols here on PF, it would be the subject of a 60 Minures segment, and the Glock would be withdrawn from use by military and LE.

I agree. Actually, I am more concerned about the recent report of a G43 trigger safety pin backing out than I am about the P07 issue.

200 rounds? I’m a bit more conservative about my carry/defense guns. I want 1000’s of rounds through at least two guns. I’ve decided that I am not interested in carrying new designs, and will stick with well-proven guns. And I want to understand how the gun works and be satisfied with the engineering. Because I carry my guns under difficult conditions (eg. rolling in mud, sand, and dust during a two day precision rifle match) I demand that the guns can function when dirty or fouled. So far, Glocks and CZ P-07s have met my criteria.

[GJM]

For bear defense, the rolling around in inclement conditions, shooting from weird positions is paramount. A few years back, friends were hunting on Afognak (island north end of Kodiak). Dragging a deer down to the boat, they were attacked by a sow and two large cubs. The hunter missed the sow with his rifle at close range and a FUT ensued where one hunter was grievously mauled by the sow. Bad things ensued with the hunter and sow rolling around on the ground, including the son in law of the hunter shooting the sow off the hunter with a contact rifle shot. Then one of the cubs attacked, and the son in law grabbed a revolver from the injured hunter’s holster and shot the bear in the head at arm’s length distance. I am betting there were mostly imperfect trigger presses in that fight, gloves involved, and the need for the trigger to work for more than one person. I don’t know anything about ECQC, but I would bet some urban entanglements don’t look that different.

[s0nspark]

200 rounds? I’m a bit more conservative about my carry/defense guns.

500 of mixed ammo. 200 minimum of the ammo I intend to carry.

And, really, that is a minimum standard... developed as it was only because, historically, I've been in the position of having to sell guns to fund new guns so time was a bigger factor than ammo. More is definitely better if time and budget allow.

Honestly, these days I'm not happy to see *any* malfunctions in a gun meant for carrying that has had less than 2-3k rounds of quality ammo through it. The P-07s were the first guns I've owned to pass that milestone and I'm well on the way there with my Gen 5 Glock 19.

[s0nspark]

For bear defense, the rolling around in inclement conditions, shooting from weird positions is paramount. A few years back, friends were hunting on Afognak (island north end of Kodiak). Dragging a deer down to the boat, they were attacked by a sow and two large cubs. The hunter missed the sow with his rifle at close range and a FUT ensued where one hunter was grievously mauled by the sow. Bad things ensued with the hunter and sow rolling around on the ground, including the son in law of the hunter shooting the sow off the hunter with a contact rifle shot. Then one of the cubs attacked, and the son in law grabbed a revolver from the injured hunter’s holster and shot the bear in the head at arm’s length distance. I am betting there were mostly imperfect trigger presses in that fight, gloves involved, and the need for the trigger to work for more than one person. I don’t know anything about ECQC, but I would bet some urban entanglements don’t look that different.

Rolling (BJJ?) with bears in inclement weather is not sounding like fun!

[Clusterfrack]

Rolling (BJJ?) with bears in inclement weather is not sounding like fun!

I had a recent session with my Systema instructor (who is also a Sambo Master) that felt pretty similar. [emoji3]

[miller_man]

Ok just got off phone with CGW - fantastic, awesome folks there. They have a fix in the works. New parts coming in Sep and another part shortly there after. Said they’ll be testing and then available.

I will still be calling CZ USA but I’m totally content and will be waiting for CGW parts.

[GJM]

Coincidentally, Cajun just called to say they had finished going over the three P09 lowers I just sent back for this problem. They said these three had this problem about as bad as they had ever seen. On two they had to go to much smaller rollers, and on all three they had to machine twenty thousands off the sear. We then discussed how odd that I would have three bad ones, and I asked about wear, given my practice round count for USPSA. They did think it was quite possible that wear contributed to the problem, and I tend to agree as the problem was relatively recent, despite having one gun three or four years, and not noticing it when I started shooting these pistols late spring. For those of you without the problem now, I would stay vigilant.

[GuanoLoco]

I had a recent session with my Systema instructor (who is also a Sambo Master) that felt pretty similar. [emoji3]

Who?

[Clusterfrack]

Who?

I’d rather not post any names. Definitely feels like grappling a grizzly when I roll with this guy. Add a practice blade or two, even more so.

[desmondj]

Are any of you guys left handed? I am. I picked up a stock P07 at a gun store and dry fired it and after a few dry fire pulls the hammer would start to drop to half cock. Right handed normal function.

Try testing left handed [emoji1787]

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[Clusterfrack]

I have tested multple P07s, and can get all of them to drop to half cock but ONLY when my trigger finger tip hits the frame just as the sear breaks.

If you do not have large hands with long fingers, this will be a very contrived trigger pull, with the finger sunk deep into the guard.

I have found no effect of lateral pressure on the trigger, or orientation of the gun.

[desmondj]

It's interesting, I purchased a used P-07 Duty (2009) and it has no issues with left handed firing. Mags dropping free is another issue. Maybe recent change in manufacturing?

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[GuanoLoco]

I have tested multple P07s, and can get all of them to drop to half cock but ONLY when my trigger finger tip hits the frame just as the sear breaks.

If you do not have large hands with long fingers, this will be a very contrived trigger pull, with the finger sunk deep into the guard.

I have found no effect of lateral pressure on the trigger, or orientation of the gun.

OOOH! I finally got mine to do it - exactly once.

I have an XL hand, right handed, and had to have my trigger finger over-inserted into to the trigger all the way my 3rd joint (VERY awkward!!!) and pulled VERY slowly right up to the break. It was awkward and painful and my finger was getting pinched on the left and was in the way so much that I almost couldn't pull it far enough to get the sear to break.

In my case, a "contrived" would be an understatement. But I did make it happen - no idea what/how though.

[GJM]

OOOH! I finally got mine to do it - exactly once.

I have an XL hand, right handed, and had to have my trigger finger over-inserted into to the trigger all the way my 3rd joint (VERY awkward!!!) and pulled VERY slowly right up to the break. It was awkward and painful and my finger was getting pinched on the left and was in the way so much that I almost couldn't pull it far enough to get the sear to break.

In my case, a "contrived" would be an understatement. But I did make it happen - no idea what/how though.

Perhaps an intentional design feature by CZ to reward shooters with perfect trigger presses, and provide immediate feedback for those that err.

[feudist]

Perhaps an intentional design feature by CZ to reward shooters with perfect trigger presses, and provide immediate feedback for those that err.

It's not a bug...

[GuanoLoco]

I'm trying to do this in between work tasks, but an idea hit me:

The half-cock notch is designed to catch the hammer in the event the hammer slips off the sear when the trigger isn't pressed, right?

It sounds like the timing is wrong where the trigger is pressed enough to release the sear from the DA hammer hooks, but NOT enough to keep the sear off the half-cock notch, because:
- perhaps the trigger didn't go back far enough because the shooter's finger was pressing on the frame, inhibiting or delaying over-travel
- Maybe the sear spring is too strong/weak
- the timing of the system of off (roller bearing size)

Sorry, my understanding of exactly how the Omega trigger system works from a geometry/timing perspective is far from adequate.

I assemble, disassemble, replace parts, polish bearing surfaces and test heavily.

[desmondj]

Sounds like loose parts tolerances are affecting timing. As demonstrated by imperfect trigger press.

My P-07 Duty trigger has absolutely no side to side movement.

Is there any side to side play in the more current versions of the P-07?

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[Clusterfrack]

OOOH! I finally got mine to do it - exactly once.

I have an XL hand, right handed, and had to have my trigger finger over-inserted into to the trigger all the way my 3rd joint (VERY awkward!!!) and pulled VERY slowly right up to the break. It was awkward and painful and my finger was getting pinched on the left and was in the way so much that I almost couldn't pull it far enough to get the sear to break.

In my case, a "contrived" would be an understatement. But I did make it happen - no idea what/how though.

If you play with it with no hammer spring, it’s easier to understand.

The force on the trigger needs to drop to zero just as the sear releases. This is caused by compression of the fingertip. (Ouch)

[GJM]

How about this as a legend for the side of the P07/09 slide:

CAUTION — this pistol’s trigger design is different from the classic CZ 75 series, and depending upon tolerance stacking of your individual pistol, what size roller is installed, how your pistol’s parts have worn, the size of your hands, if you wear gloves and the timing of your DA trigger press, this pistol MAY NOT fire when you press the trigger.

[Clusterfrack]

I tried to get it to do it with gloves, but couldn’t.

[GuanoLoco]

How about this as a legend for the side of the P07/09 slide:

CAUTION — this pistol’s trigger design is different from the classic CZ 75 series, and depending upon tolerance stacking of your individual pistol, what size roller is installed, how your pistol’s parts have worn, the size of your hands, if you wear gloves and the timing of your DA trigger press, this pistol MAY NOT fire when you press the trigger.

Stop pulling the DA trigger so slow. I’ve seen your videos. Positively glacial. /sarc

[GJM]

Stop pulling the DA trigger so slow. I’ve seen your videos. Positively glacial. /sarc


Kidding aside, I experienced “the issue” three times in matches, going hard, which really pissed me off.

[ralph]

In case a one's interested, over at the CZ Forum, in their thread over there about this issue there is a post from I believe David @ CGW, on the last page (he goes my the user name of Schemky) (sp?)while they have made some parts for this issue, they don't think most people will need them, as it's their opinion that this really is'nt an issue because in order to get pistols to do this, they had to use an unorthodox grip to get the pistols to do it.. basically, my take from reading David's post, this is a non issue.. So, there you have it...

[GJM]

In case a one's interested, over at the CZ Forum, in their thread over there about this issue there is a post from I believe David @ CGW, on the last page (he goes my the user name of Schemky) (sp?)while they have made some parts for this issue, they don't think most people will need them, as it's their opinion that this really is'nt an issue because in order to get pistols to do this, they had to use an unorthodox grip to get the pistols to do it.. basically, my take from reading David's post, this is a non issue.. So, there you have it...

Link?

[ralph]

Link?

I'd love to, but I don't know how...I'm pretty computer challanged..go over there to the CZ forum, look in the board titled "polymer pistols, the new wave" thread titled "P09/07 potential problem" look on the last page..you should find it there

[Clusterfrack]

Double post

[Clusterfrack]

Dave’s (Schmeky) description of the issue is not consistent with my testing of 3 P07s. In these guns, lateral pressure, round count, CGW vs stock parts all have nothing to do with it. It happens when the fingertip hits the frame at the same moment the sear breaks.

I do agree with his conclusion that it is not a concern for most people.

[Mjolnir]

It might be related to the DA roller bearing. CGW installs oversized rollers that advance DA hammer fall. If you installed one that was on the hairy edge the sear might not clear the hammer. A smaller roller requires more trigger travel, sometimes it can be further back than the SA break.

Good call.

I purchased a USED, OWNER-CONVERTED Pro Grade P-09 where he used a normal sized roller bearing. The trigger pull in Single Action required precious little travel. It nearly contacted the frame and the SA trigger pull was VERY light.

Upon lots of studying the parts I disassembled the pistol and found a different trigger, and an UNDERSIZED roller bearing.

I’m still not sure what trigger he had but he must have had a small hand so the trigger he installed had a more pronounce “bow”. I installed the larger sized DA Roller as well.

I went back and forth with the Trigger Return Spring - loving the DA but not so much the SA with the CGW part. And I like the added durability the CGW part provides. I *imagine* the SA trigger pull is about 2.5 lbs (my PERCEPTION) which is too light to carry.

This post reminds me to go measure the SA pull.

Thanks.


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[GuanoLoco]

Good call.

I purchased a USED, OWNER-CONVERTED Pro Grade P-09 where he used a normal sized roller bearing. The trigger pull in Single Action required precious little travel. It nearly contacted the frame and the SA trigger pull was VERY light.

Upon lots of studying the parts I disassembled the pistol and found a different trigger, and an UNDERSIZED roller bearing.

I’m still not sure what trigger he had but he must have had a small hand so the trigger he installed had a more pronounce “bow”. I installed the larger sized DA Roller as well.

I went back and forth with the Trigger Return Spring - loving the DA but not so much the SA with the CGW part. And I like the added durability the CGW part provides. I *imagine* the SA trigger pull is about 2.5 lbs (my PERCEPTION) which is too light to carry.

This post reminds me to go measure the SA pull.

Thanks.


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I get that light SA trigger presses may be unnerving at first, but with practice they quickly become a norm, and an attractive norm at that. I’ve run competition SA trigger presses from 3+ to ~1.5 lbs - yes, you need to develop good mechanics (finger off trigger when not shooting, during movement, during reloads, muzzle awareness - all stuff one should be doing anyhow).

Youi have a heavy DA first press (probably 7-8+ lbs) - why the concern over the SA press?

Also, unless you are running the competition springs or your setup is significantly different than mine (Pro-grade + Polish) I doubt you are under 3 lbs SA.

‘My preference’ is a perfectly aceptable answer, but just wondering.

[GJM]

Dave’s (Schmeky) description of the issue is not consistent with my testing of 3 P07s. In these guns, lateral pressure, round count, CGW vs stock parts all have nothing to do with it. It happens when the fingertip hits the frame at the same moment the sear breaks.

I do agree with his conclusion that it is not a concern for most people.

His description and response seems a lot like what Bruce Gray said about the Sig 320 drop safety problem.

[Mjolnir]

I get that light SA trigger presses may be unnerving at first, but with practice they quickly become a norm, and an attractive norm at that. I’ve run competition SA trigger presses from 3+ to ~1.5 lbs - yes, you need to develop good mechanics (finger off trigger when not shooting, during movement, during reloads, muzzle awareness - all stuff one should be doing anyhow).

Youi have a heavy DA first press (probably 7-8+ lbs) - why the concern over the SA press?

Also, unless you are running the competition springs or your setup is significantly different than mine (Pro-grade + Polish) I doubt you are under 3 lbs SA.

‘My preference’ is a perfectly aceptable answer, but just wondering.

Good points.

The P-07 that CGW did for me was 8.75 DA and 3.75 SA. It’s a Pro Grade that I told them would be used for Defensive Carry.

Both are very crisp.

I will measure it this evening/tonight.


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[GJM]

Oddly similar:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/268143-shadow-2-new-thing-happening/

[GuanoLoco]

I just brought a new P-09 on-line with the CGW Pro-Upgrade Kit, 15 lb hammer spring and polish job. So far no issues although I note that my “identically” configured P-07 with a few thousand live rounds and a few months of dry fire has a markedly lighter DA and SA. The P-09 seemed to have a noticeably smoother DA out of the box than the P-07 though.

CZ OEM roller was 0.222” (the OEM P-07 roller was 0.223”) and pthe Pro-Upgrade roller was 0.225”.

Preliminary testing with the 92050 Dawson Precision Fiber Optic Sight Set CZ P-07 P-09 hs it hitting markedly low - I am suspicious of a single sight set SKU for BOTH the P-07 and P-09.

I worked on the slide release last night to improve the auto-forward and ease with which I can manually forward using my support hand thumb when it fails to do so.

No other issues noted - so far.

[TheNewbie]

I just brought a new P-09 on-line with the CGW Pro-Upgrade Kit, 15 lb hammer spring and polish job. So far no issues although I note that my “identically” configured P-07 with a few thousand live rounds and a few months of dry fire has a markedly lighter DA and SA. The P-09 seemed to have a noticeably smoother DA out of the box than the P-07 though.

CZ OEM roller was 0.222” (the OEM P-07 roller was 0.223”) and pthe Pro-Upgrade roller was 0.225”.

Preliminary testing with the 92050 Dawson Precision Fiber Optic Sight Set CZ P-07 P-09 hs it hitting markedly low - I am suspicious of a single sight set SKU for BOTH the P-07 and P-09.

I worked on the slide release last night to improve the auto-forward and ease with which I can manually forward using my support hand thumb when it fails to do so.

No other issues noted - so far.

Glad it's working so far!

Did you all have issues with ALL stock P07s and P09s?

[GuanoLoco]

Glad it's working so far!

Did you all have issues with ALL stock P07s and P09s?

I haven't had much in the way of issues at all, with the exception of having to relieve the plastic on the P-07 to add a little over-travel.

[Clusterfrack]

Glad it's working so far!

Did you all have issues with ALL stock P07s and P09s?

I have not had a single malfunction in my P-07s, and neither have my buddies. In every P-07 I have tested, I have been able to induce the gun to drop the hammer to half cock from a DA pull if I interrupt the force of the trigger pull just at the moment the DA sear breaks. I can do it by sticking my finger deep so I'm pulling the trigger with my 2nd knuckle, and so the tip of my trigger finger hits the frame at just the right moment. This is a very contrived trigger pull, and I cannot make the gun do it under any normal condition, including pinching gloves or cloth behind the trigger. Bottom line: I'm not concerned about it.

[miller_man]

So just found out about this from the good folks at CGW - https://cajungunworks.com/product/sear-pin-p-07-p-09/

Seems to be at least part of the solution to the problem. Have a p-07 I can drop to half cock, will be ordering one soon.

[HCM]

I just brought a new P-09 on-line with the CGW Pro-Upgrade Kit, 15 lb hammer spring and polish job. So far no issues although I note that my “identically” configured P-07 with a few thousand live rounds and a few months of dry fire has a markedly lighter DA and SA. The P-09 seemed to have a noticeably smoother DA out of the box than the P-07 though.

CZ OEM roller was 0.222” (the OEM P-07 roller was 0.223”) and pthe Pro-Upgrade roller was 0.225”.

Preliminary testing with the 92050 Dawson Precision Fiber Optic Sight Set CZ P-07 P-09 hs it hitting markedly low - I am suspicious of a single sight set SKU for BOTH the P-07 and P-09.

I worked on the slide release last night to improve the auto-forward and ease with which I can manually forward using my support hand thumb when it fails to do so.

No other issues noted - so far.

Will Dawson send you a shorter front sight under their perfect impact guarantee ?

[GuanoLoco]

Will Dawson send you a shorter front sight under their perfect impact guarantee ?

Yes - and I’ve used it before.

Unfortunately I bpught the CGW sights first - worked fine for the P-07 but I wasn’t satisfied with POI of the SAME sights on the P-09 - duh.

Learning occcurred and I just bought and installed a set of Dawson’s for the P-09.

[TheNewbie]

So just found out about this from the good folks at CGW - https://cajungunworks.com/product/sear-pin-p-07-p-09/

Seems to be at least part of the solution to the problem. Have a p-07 I can drop to half cock, will be ordering one soon.

Under what conditions does your problem occur?

[miller_man]

Under what conditions does your problem occur?

When pressing the trigger in DA with a good amount of side pressure from left to right (from back of the gun). Curling my finger pretty good around the trigger and pulling it sideways some while bringing the trigger back (right handed shooter).

[FreedomFries]

I have not had a single malfunction in my P-07s, and neither have my buddies. In every P-07 I have tested, I have been able to induce the gun to drop the hammer to half cock from a DA pull if I interrupt the force of the trigger pull just at the moment the DA sear breaks. I can do it by sticking my finger deep so I'm pulling the trigger with my 2nd knuckle, and so the tip of my trigger finger hits the frame at just the right moment. This is a very contrived trigger pull, and I cannot make the gun do it under any normal condition, including pinching gloves or cloth behind the trigger. Bottom line: I'm not concerned about it.

I had a P-07 briefly but traded it for a Beretta 92 compact as I found that I just prefer that system. I never experienced any malfunctions with my P-07 in the period that I had it, but probably had less than 500 rounds through it. It is probably possible to drop the hammer to half cock from the DA pull on many TDA pistols under the right conditions. The P-07 probably is not unique in that way. If you interrupt the trigger pull right at the moment of the DA break and have sufficient spring force to reset the trigger fast enough and sufficient spring force to reset the sear fast enough, it is possible to catch the half cock notch before the hammer finishes its travel. It may be easier to accomplish with a lighter main/hammer spring because this may make the hammer fall slower. It is also probably easier to do if the specific pistol tends to release the hammer earlier in the DA stroke due to variances in manufacturing tolerances or wear to the parts.

In this P-07 to PX4C comparison thread, the topic of the P-07 drop to half cock issue was brought up. I had mentioned on that thread that I was able to make a Beretta 92 do something similar as well.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37359-CZ-P07-Beretta-PX4-Compact-Comparison/page3

As I mentioned in the above thread, I was able to make a Beretta 92 WC Cent Tac engage the half cock, at least momentarily, from the DA pull. If I recall correctly, in most of these cases, it resulted in the hammer still continuing past the half cock position to the fully rested hammer position, however, it did have a noticeable, loud hitch at the half cock position before doing so. I believe I was able to make it stop completely at the half cock once, but I could be wrong. The way I induced the malfunction was by oscillating the trigger near the DA break point (while unloaded obviously). Basically, by twitching the trigger back and forth, I was intentionally trying to reset the trigger, sear, etc. just in time for the hammer half cock notch to catch while falling from the DA pull. Sometimes I'd short stroke it, other times, it would just drop the hammer as normal in a DA pull. About 1 in 30 attempts, I could get it to behave erratically. There is no actual reason to do this other than purely "academic" interest to see if I could do it. It would probably never occur under normal use, so I do not see it to be a problem.

The specific pistol had a moderately worn trigger bar. During dry fire, the sight movement from trigger overtravel was noticeably worse than my other Berettas. Since the overtravel was worse, this would suggest that the hammer was releasing in the DA pull earlier in the trigger stroke than it does in my other Beretta pistols. I was able to make it occur using the hammer spring that came with the action tune (probably 13#), as well as with a 16# hammer spring. Swapping the trigger bar with a new WC trigger bar resolved the issue entirely. I would guess that even swapping with a new Beretta OEM trigger bar would have also resolved it. I was unable to get my other 92s or my PX4 to do this. My other 92 pistols did not have as much wear on the trigger bar. Even without replacement of the trigger bar, the pistol was still fully functional except that it would light strike with the 13# hammer spring occasionally. I don't consider these occurrences to be a problem with the Beretta design, WC action tunes, or even a real problem at all since it does not occur unless you make a deliberate effort to induce a failure. Similarly, if I had experienced this in a P-07, I would not be alarmed unless it was occurring during regular use.

[Clusterfrack]

I just got a Shadow2 to drop to half cock by incompletely pulling the trigger. I can’t easily repeat it, and have never in 100s of thousands of trigger pulls had it happen normally.

[1911Nut]

This is not about an ignition problem, but another issue I discovered with my new CGW P09. CGW installed one of their Pro Packages on it and I recently added Dawson Precision #300-143 sights. Just confirmed zero with it yesterday and this evening I decided to remove the decockers and install the ambi thumb safety on this pistol so I could get a feel of how the pistol handled when fired from Condition 1 carry.

Removal of the decockers and installation of the ambi safety couldn't be simpler. There are more than several instructional videos on the internet showing the process. I was able to perform the swap in about five minutes total.

However . . . after installing the ambi safety I cannot get it to work. I reviewed the aforementioned videos literally dozens of times and can't see that I have done anything wrong. I have removed and reinstalled the ambi safety so many times this evening that I think I could do it in the dark without the use of a light! When the ambi safety is installed, it simply freezes up and will not move. I have tried it with the frame separated from the slide and with the slide on the frame. I have carefully lubricated all pertinent parts in the gun. I have tried it with the hammer cocked, fully down, and at half cock position.

When I install the left side safety lever and snap it fully into place, the safety completely freezes up in the "in-between safety on and safety off" position. It cannot be moved up or down, whether it is disassembled from the slide or fully assembled. The hammer can be cocked, the slide racked, and the trigger acts and falls normally - Just no safety at all!

If I install the left side safety lever and only push it about 3/4 of the way into place (just far enough for the axle of the left lever to mate with the receptacle of the right safety lever, but not fully seated) the safety will go into the "safe" position perfectly. But as soon as the lever is moved off the "safe" position, it completely locks in the "in-between"position described above.

Any suggestions or advice? I am at my mountain home in northern AZ now, and if I haven't figured it out, I will drop it off at CZ Custom in Mesa when I return to my Mesa home. It is frustrating, and I am almost positive I am not installing the ambi safety incorrectly. It is so simple and straightforward I'm not certain there IS a way to install it incorrectly!

[Redhat]

Could you lay out the steps you are following?

[1911Nut]

Could you lay out the steps you are following?

Yes, I am following the instructions precisely as shown in this video:

https://www.full30.com/watch/OTcz/cz-p07-p09-decocker-safety-conversion-installation

I have also watched tree or four other videos, and they all provide the same guidance.

[Redhat]

Do you have the hammer cocked and the spring out? I would also suggest you check the video from Mr Guns and Gear. He hits some points Sootch doesn't. He also identifies a metal part on the left lever that may help.

If that fails, I'd just give a call to CGW and ask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUpzl2lpaYs


Does CZ not include the procedures in the owner's manual?

[1911Nut]

Hammer is cocked and spring is out. I looked at the provided video. I don't recall a metal piece on the left safety lever. I will check this evening when I have access to the pistol again.

[1911Nut]

Disassembled the P09 again. and the previously mentioned metal piece is indeed in place on the left safety lever. Reassembled and still have the same problem . . . . non-functional safety. Will stop by CZ Custom on Monday to see if they can provide a solution. Thanks to all who have provided feedback.

[Redhat]

Disassembled the P09 again. and the previously mentioned metal piece is indeed in place on the left safety lever. Reassembled and still have the same problem . . . . non-functional safety. Will stop by CZ Custom on Monday to see if they can provide a solution. Thanks to all who have provided feedback.

Well...any news?

[1911Nut]

Well...any news?

Yes, the news is that Monday has come and almost gone and I DID NOT make it to CZ Custom with the P09. Too many irons in the fire. Will try again tomorrow, or Wednesday for sure. Will post the outcome!

[1911Nut]

Yes, the news is that Monday has come and almost gone and I DID NOT make it to CZ Custom with the P09. Too many irons in the fire. Will try again tomorrow, or Wednesday for sure. Will post the outcome!

Well, it wasn't the one I was hoping for, but I got my answer today!

Took the P09 in to CZ Custom this afternoon to see if they could tell me what I was doing wrong in my attempts to install the thumb safety levers after removing the decockers.

They took a good look at it, had it apart and back together at least a couple of times, and then took it back into their shop. The consensus is that they THINK that the custom Cajun Gun Works hammer is interfering with the proper operation of the thumb safety levers and that the levers need to be fitted.

Of course this gun has has fairly extensive work done by Cajun Gun Works, and I was at CZ Custom. The recommendation was to contact CGW and arrange to return it for assessment and fitting of the thumb safety levers if necessary. An alternative would be to disassemble the pistol, remove the CGW custom hammer and replace it with the original one and then see if the thumb safety levers operated properly. I then would at least know what the root cause of the issue is.

Either way, I'm not real fond of the options. If the gun has to be disassembled and the custom hammer replaced with the original one, I would then have a gun that worked and a custom hammer of no use to me. If I chose to send it back to CGW, it would cost me shipping costs at least one way.

In reality, I'm not that interested in finding out what it will take to convert the pistol to thumb safety levers instead of the decockers. The thumb safety levers are not real ergonomically friendly for my hand and if I got them working properly, I think there would be about a 90% probability I wouldn't like them and would switch back to the decockers anyway.

I can certainly understand and I fully support CZ Custom's hesitancy to work on a gun that was customized and modified by Cajun Gun Works, and I support that position.

So . . . . . I took the P09 home, removed the non-functional thumb safety levers, and reinstalled the decockers!

Final note: Getting that decocker spring back in it's groove when installing it is an absolute bitch! Finally accomplished it with the use of some 90 degree needle nose pliers I had in my gun box.

[Redhat]

Thanks for the follow-up.

Even if you don't want them to fix it, I would at least let CGW know what happened so they can apply that knowledge in the future.

[Clusterfrack]

1911Nut, that’s interesting. I never tried the thumb safeties on my ProGrade P-07 since I would have no use for them.

You can use a small flat head screwdriver with a notch filed in it, to make placement of the decocker spring easier. Or you can buy this tool:
Spring Bar Tool
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016A8I8HC

[1911Nut]

1911Nut, that’s interesting. I never tried the thumb safeties on my ProGrade P-07 since I would have no use for them.

You can use a small flat head screwdriver with a notch filed in it, to make placement of the decocker spring easier. Or you can buy this tool:
Spring Bar Tool
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016A8I8HC

Thanks very much for the information about the spring bar tool. Coincidentally, I was just looking through my tool box to find a small screwdriver and experiment with grooving the blade shortly before I received your message! Think I will try the tool from Amazon. I very much enjoy your posts and appreciate the knowledge you share.