The Russian Way of War - Lessons Learned From The Ukraine

[Mark D]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CMby_WPjk4


"Speaking to West Point cadets and faculty, Dr. Phillip Karber describes what he has learned about the Russian way of war from thirty trips he has made to Ukraine, including six months on the front lines of the war in the country's east."

I watched/listened to this yesterday. It offers a detailed look into current Russian military capabilities, as observed in the Ukrainian conflict. Fascinating stuff for anyone with an interest in land warfare. Hint - they're way ahead The U.S. in some areas. It appears that our 16+ years of GWOT has left us with significant vulnerabilities against a near-peer.

[Arbninftry]

The Russians believe in "Total War" meaning they will wage it war on multiple levels to include civilian society. So do the Chinese. Google Chinese Assymetric Warfare. The document was written by several Chinese Generals. Our Adversaries do not believe in our western morals. War is waged on civilians as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare

Also study the Georgian conflict in 2008. I was at Huachuca as an Intel Officer Basic Course Instructor, on one side of the OBC classroom was a Georgian, the other side a Russian all on exchange programs. They did not like each other to say the least.

[Stephanie B]

The Russians believe in "Total War" meaning they will wage it war on multiple levels to include civilian society. So do the Chinese. Google Chinese Assymetric Warfare. The document was written by several Chinese Generals. Our Adversaries do not believe in our western morals. War is waged on civilians as well.
And we don't believe in that? My recollection is that the bombing campaign against Serbia in the late `90s was aimed, in part, at making life difficult for civilians, so they'd pressure their government. We've certainly had no qualms in bombing population centers during the last peer-to-peer war we fought.

Counter-insurgency warfare is different, for you don't want the civilians to actively support the insurgents. And that's the game we've been trying to play for the last 18 years. More to the point, we've not faced an adversary who has much more than AKs and IEDs for that time.

The lack of EW awareness is frightening.

[Mark D]

Yes, the EW stuff was especially concerning. The Russian's utilization of UAV is also concerning. If I understood correctly, Dr. Karber has a piece of shrapnel in his body from a UAV strike.

[RevolverRob]

The Russians believe in "Total War"...

Because Total War is how you defeat ideologies, not just armies. A lesson the United States seems to have forgotten shortly after the coals cooled following Sherman's March to the Sea...

[Arbninftry]

The Russians also cleansed villages in Georgia, Crimea, and the Ukraine. They also decimated Chechnya, probably for the better, but wanted to destroy that whole region because of all the terrorist attacks.

US forces do not do things like that. We still teach laws of land warfare in BOLIC. The Russians look for ways around the Geneva convention.

[Kyle Reese]

While I'm hesitant to post Wikipedia as a source, their page on the Soviet NKVD "Destruction Battalions" showcases the Soviet / Russian mindset, and is worth the read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_battalions
The Russians also cleansed villages in Georgia, Crimea, and the Ukraine. They also decimated Chechnya, probably for the better, but wanted to destroy that whole region because of all the terrorist attacks.

US forces do not do things like that. We still teach laws of land warfare in BOLIC. The Russians look for ways around the Geneva convention.

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[David C.]

The Russians also cleansed villages in Georgia, Crimea, and the Ukraine. They also decimated Chechnya, probably for the better, but wanted to destroy that whole region because of all the terrorist attacks.

US forces do not do things like that. We still teach laws of land warfare in BOLIC. The Russians look for ways around the Geneva convention.

KFOR did a pretty effective job of letting Albanians from Brooklyn ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Serbs.

[El Cid]

And we don't believe in that? My recollection is that the bombing campaign against Serbia in the late `90s was aimed, in part, at making life difficult for civilians, so they'd pressure their government.
My memory of that is different. We had the POTUS approving individual targets to be struck. Clinton personally approved the bombing of what turned out to be the Chinese embassy.

His desire to avoid inconveniencing the population resulted in absurd ROE that said we could only do night strike missions during certain hours and from certain directions. This led to a predictable pattern that increased the danger to our aircrews and was a direct contributor to them shooting down an F-117. If you know the time and direction of the attack, just throw enough ordnance in the air and viola - one downed stealth fighter. And the Russians and Chicoms got pieces of that bird.

[ranger]

Think about this - very few people stay in the military for a 20 year career. GWOT, etc. has been going for 17 years or so - that is almost a full career. The US Army leaders who developed their "full spectrum warfare" ground maneuver skills at NTC and other CTCs are long gone. We have a generation of Infantry, Armor, Combat Engineer, and Field Artillery leaders who spent a significant part of their formative years doing COIN, etc. They specifically did not spend their Platoon and Company time maneuvering "force on force" against a peer or near-peer simulated adversary.

[Arbninftry]

Think about this - very few people stay in the military for a 20 year career. GWOT, etc. has been going for 17 years or so - that is almost a full career. The US Army leaders who developed their "full spectrum warfare" ground maneuver skills at NTC and other CTCs are long gone. We have a generation of Infantry, Armor, Combat Engineer, and Field Artillery leaders who spent a significant part of their formative years doing COIN, etc. They specifically did not spend their Platoon and Company time maneuvering "force on force" against a peer or near-peer simulated adversary.
Yes Sir, that also why Mattis is trying to refocus US Forces back to bigger threats, in his most recent National Defense Strategy Review.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/01/19/mattis-calls-for-urgent-change-to-counter-russia-and-china-in-new-pentagon-strategy/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c3f8f23717d0

[Mike C]

Ranger, absolutely spot on.

Mattis is just brilliant. I wish we could have had him sooner.

As to the EW threat it is some scary shit. Air support and ability to use artillery is completely dependent on ability to communicate and is a huge force multiplier in a major ground war. I shudder to think of not being able to call for evac, arty, and air support when needed. I can think of more than a few times I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that capability.

It would be even worse if unable to communicate and coordinate with adjacent units when conducting company and battalion level ops or while in the shit and out of visibility for hand arm signals or having to use runners. It would suck to go back to flares, vs17 panels and runners to communicate after depending on radios for so long. I’m probably imagining worse case scenario and once I get home I look forward to reading the link provided about recent Russian conflict.

[Stephanie B]

I'm just an ex-squid, but EW reminds me a lot of ASW: Whoever emits, dies.

I'm out of my lane on ground ops. But when I read the promotional stuff about the Future Combat System and how everyone would be datalinked, my first thought was to wonder who was doing hard drugs. we're not always going to be fighting guys who long for the 7th Century. Even if the datalinks are heavily encrypted and they hop around a lot of freqs, they still tell someone else "Yankees over there." Get a fix and shoot at it. Get a rough fix and shoot at it with artillery.

We don't know what the Russians can really do with EW. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the Russians have not been using their full capabilities in Ukraine or in Syria.

Meanwhile, over on the AF side, they're buying "fighters" that are absolutely dependent on datalinks and somebody with active radar in order to prevail. Take that away and there is a chance that those fighters are going to perform about as well as Helen Keller in a gunfight.

[Mark D]

Mattis is just brilliant. I wish we could have had him sooner.

It would be even worse if unable to communicate and coordinate with adjacent units when conducting company and battalion level ops or while in the shit and out of visibility for hand arm signals or having to use runners. It would suck to go back to flares, vs17 panels and runners to communicate after depending on radios for so long. I’m probably imagining worse case scenario and once I get home I look forward to reading the link provided about recent Russian conflict.

I'm a huge fan of Mattis.

With regard to comms and nav, Dr Karber tells the West Point cadets, "if you can't read a map, get out of the Army". He goes on to explain that map and compass skills will be essential when GPS systems are down or inadvisable.

One of things I really liked about the lecture was that Karber has spent his time int he trenches, literally. He's not just debriefing combatants from afar.

[Poconnor]

When I was in the army I remember being told the Army always prepares to fight the last war. I think we need to read more Ralph Peters

[okie john]

I'm just an ex-squid, but EW reminds me a lot of ASW: Whoever emits, dies.

I'm out of my lane on ground ops. But when I read the promotional stuff about the Future Combat System and how everyone would be datalinked, my first thought was to wonder who was doing hard drugs. we're not always going to be fighting guys who long for the 7th Century. Even if the datalinks are heavily encrypted and they hop around a lot of freqs, they still tell someone else "Yankees over there." Get a fix and shoot at it. Get a rough fix and shoot at it with artillery.

We don't know what the Russians can really do with EW. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the Russians have not been using their full capabilities in Ukraine or in Syria.

Meanwhile, over on the AF side, they're buying "fighters" that are absolutely dependent on datalinks and somebody with active radar in order to prevail. Take that away and there is a chance that those fighters are going to perform about as well as Helen Keller in a gunfight.

You think that you're out of your lane, but you clearly understand the fundamentals.


Okie John

[Trigger]

Meanwhile, over on the AF side, they're buying "fighters" that are absolutely dependent on datalinks and somebody with active radar in order to prevail. Take that away and there is a chance that those fighters are going to perform about as well as Helen Keller in a gunfight.

Ummm, respectfully, no. Datalink is a force multiplier. Our fifth-generation platforms are quite survivable and lethal. They will have to work for a little while knocking back the defenses, but the fourth-gen fighters will soon be able to support the fight.

Jamming and EW have a lot to do with power, frequency, bandwidth, agility and distance. It is very hard to jam it all everywhere. We do train against this, and have some understanding of our strengths and weaknesses.

[Stephanie B]

Ummm, respectfully, no. Datalink is a force multiplier. Our fifth-generation platforms are quite survivable and lethal. They will have to work for a little while knocking back the defenses, but the fourth-gen fighters will soon be able to support the fight.

Jamming and EW have a lot to do with power, frequency, bandwidth, agility and distance. It is very hard to jam it all everywhere. We do train against this, and have some understanding of our strengths and weaknesses.
EW is everything under the sun. ESM, well, you’re out there, datalinking away, and a sophisticated enemy now knows where you are and may have an idea how many of you there are.

Or maybe the plan is that the active data link is coming from an E-3, well behind the leading edge of battle, and everybody else is in receive-only mode. If I were a Chinese (or Russian) upper-echelon defense manager, I would be spending money to develop a medium-range ballistic missile to do an overhead attack on an E-2/3/767.

I don’t know of an instance where a “fifth generation” combat aircraft has fought anybody.

[GyroF-16]

I don’t know of an instance where a “fifth generation” combat aircraft has fought anybody.

Well...

F-22:
https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/raptor-strikes-180957782/

F-35:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-05-30/israel-flies-first-f-35-combat-missions#

[Baldanders]

We aren't fighting WWII again, which is a shame because our military is spectacularly well suited to win that war.

Nukes, AI, and plutocracy make large power head to head fights unprofitable for the Inner Party of every major power. Increasingly nasty proxy fights and cyber maneuvering seem to be where we are now. I think escalation would more likely be about putting an end to US hegemony over the global financial system than a fight over land.

Cyber has been a hot war for decades, it's just only recently that the US has had to worry about anyone else with a real offence, and we are still in the infancy of destroying/manipulating physical assets via information warfare, and manipulation of public opinion with new tools.

I imagine WWIII is going to involve techniques that would seem like horrific S-F now.

[Stephanie B]

I don’t know of an instance where a “fifth generation” combat aircraft has fought anybody.

Well...

F-22:
https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/raptor-strikes-180957782/

F-35:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-05-30/israel-flies-first-f-35-combat-missions#

I apologize, I was not clear in my comment. Allow me to rephrase:

I am not aware of an instance where a fifth-generation fighter has engaged in aerial combat with an enemy fighter.

[RevolverRob]

Wars will still require triggers to be pulled. Computers can't kill people (yet)...


Q: It always makes me feel a bit melancholy. Grand old war ship, being ignominiously haunted away to scrap... The inevitability of time, don't you think? What do you see?

James Bond: A bloody big ship. Excuse me.

Q: 007. I'm your new Quartermaster.

James Bond: You must be joking.

Q: Why, because I'm not wearing a lab coat?

James Bond: Because you still have spots.

Q: My complexion is hardly relevant.

James Bond: Your competence is.

Q: Age is no guarantee of efficiency.

James Bond: And youth is no guarantee of innovation.

Q: Well, I'll hazard I can do more damage on my laptop sitting in my pajamas before my first cup of Earl Grey than you can do in a year in the field.

James Bond: Oh, so why do you need me?

Q: Every now and then a trigger has to be pulled.

James Bond: Or not pulled. It's hard to know which in your pajamas. Q.

Q: 007.

[msh]

Wars will still require triggers to be pulled. Computers can't kill people (yet)...Google slaughterbots. Completely autonomous computer systems are quite capable of pulling triggers. DoD directive 3000 currently prevents it.

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