Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test (F.A.S.T.)

[ToddG]

Link to drill: F.A.S.T. at pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com/drills/fast-fundamentals-accuracy-speed-test)

Format for reporting score:
Total time including penalties (misses): draw, 3x5 split / reload / 8" split, 8" split, 8" split

e.g., 7.50 (-1 B): 2.00, 1.00 / 2.00 / 0.50, 0.50, 0.50
times add up to 6.50 seconds plus one second penalty for miss to the body

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/fastest-davesevigny356.jpg
Dave Sevigny of Glock Inc (http://www.glock.com/) and Sevigny Performance (http://sevignyperformance.com/)

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

[ToddG]

My personal best:

4.08 seconds (clean): 1.37, .35 / 1.76 / .20, .20, .20

HK P30 V4 (so-called "TG Special")
Custom Carry Concepts Shaggy aiwb holster and CCC BMC mag pouch
untucked polo shirt

[rsa-otc]

My personal best:

4.08 seconds (clean): 1.37, .35 / 1.76 / .20, .20, .20



Awesome - My goal to reach - someday!

[hossb7]

My best (and only) was 6.33 clean. I don't remember the split times, though :p

[Savage Hands]

I'll be one of the slower students at 8.45 clean and 48/50 on the Dot Torture :o

At least I had a nice group haha

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/Old%20guns/a7856edd.jpg

[David B.]

I have not shot the FAST yet. I'll try tomorrow or Sunday (if it stops raining) and post the results.

I'm going to guess and say that I'll be somewhere around 6 seconds based on how I've been training over the last few months.

Now that I said 6 seconds, I'll probably end up shooting it in 8 seconds. :o

We shall see.

God Bless,
David

[JodyH]

Haven't shot it in a month or so, had a 5.45 and a 5.29 both clean and smooth.
I have 6 months to go before my next attempt at the coin.
It's a done deal.
:cool:

Here's one of my AFHF runs, too bad I threw a shot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvFSCkXIK4A

[beltjones]

This isn't any kind of "official" FAST drill. I'm at 7 yards, but I'm using my USPSA Production rig intead of a concealment rig. I'm also not doing a slidelock reload. Basically I got to the range today and didn't know what to practice, so I thought I'd give this one a try a couple of times, as it has been a while since I've shot it. 4 months ago I could get "lucky" and make all the hits at 4.5 seconds, but not consistently (at 5.25 I was consistent). Today I could coast and easily make all the hits at around 4.00.

Ammo used was 115 gr Federal Champion 9mm from walmart. On string one I shot one of the staples holding the paper plate in place, and it was flapping about in the wind. The interlude between strings was me going downrange and to restaple the plate in place.

The times are 3.85 and 4.05.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_2BspAtpkk

[LittleLebowski]

The FAST truly is a test of fundamentals.

At AFHF, I was woeful but had plenty of excuses (I actually was dealing with an old wound). Fast forward a year later and with NO FAST drills since then, I was at least a second faster and clean (7:73). I blame practice of the fundamentals and Mr Vickers :D

[ToddG]

(7:73)

Now that's funny...

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/QpuPGU37w8G4F-e-wZY7IW5N32QerOT7wCvJai4kvwcDT9nJ3h3q6hQxMMZ5SzOaMU 0Xq3U_S70sia3y_4mwyLhIZt13JMN_GlASp-yFxVVA-i3xxHFRv0Hn2L0_TyDk_uPoI6UpPpf3zhVDVz04KPbS4J3tVsW Ft1hWF2MNqM8ZhtCuNlbNq6JSAynnbpNtQ2SH6_wdqkHpyO54R Yat03Fd0_TsrPpmB76ow00dIPZ-5QL0KI-lfGxya4B9M3O7UnmkgN6PfwKQLFUayg97Bl-HnkbFJKq6CAoD8mdXb_DhxjXbr9S-zssK_bJdeh0

[LittleLebowski]

Not as funny as me beating you on pull ups with a gunshot arm :D


Now that's funny...

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/QpuPGU37w8G4F-e-wZY7IW5N32QerOT7wCvJai4kvwcDT9nJ3h3q6hQxMMZ5SzOaMU 0Xq3U_S70sia3y_4mwyLhIZt13JMN_GlASp-yFxVVA-i3xxHFRv0Hn2L0_TyDk_uPoI6UpPpf3zhVDVz04KPbS4J3tVsW Ft1hWF2MNqM8ZhtCuNlbNq6JSAynnbpNtQ2SH6_wdqkHpyO54R Yat03Fd0_TsrPpmB76ow00dIPZ-5QL0KI-lfGxya4B9M3O7UnmkgN6PfwKQLFUayg97Bl-HnkbFJKq6CAoD8mdXb_DhxjXbr9S-zssK_bJdeh0

[Kyle Reese]

6.07 clean.

[98z28]

Best so far: 6.00 clean

Glock 17 Gen4
Safariland 6365 (SLS hood and ALS)
Safariland open top slimline mag pouch

[vcdgrips]

6.21 clean. G34/Looper/CCC basic mag carrier, 1/4 zip closed front fleece for cover garment._AFHF Memphis 2010


6.08, head shot out by about 3/16 of an inch, G35, same set up re holster, mag carrier and cover garment.( Cost me 20.00 for St. Judes) MWTC 2010, Tulsa

I suspect I can break 6. I am not so sure re 5.

[Prdator]

Best so far was a 4.6 clean and a 5.02 clean:mad: ( in front of ToddG)

I don't shoot the FAST very much, I just work on the sub skills and then put it all together. Last one was a total disaster!!! that's what I get for telling my bud's " hey ya'll watch this"!! :D

[mnealtx]

that's what I get for telling my bud's " hey ya'll watch this"!! :D

The only thing that guarantees a worse outcome is "Hold my beer and watch this!" :D:o:p

[JohnN]

I am generally faster when shooting alone;) or with a shooting buddy but things don't work out as well in front of the class. Something about an audience and the pressure to do well in front of your peers.

[dookie1481]

Not as funny as me beating you on pull ups with a gunshot arm :D

hahahahaha

[Chipster]

I am also generally better (faster) when I am all by myself, kind of like sex, I am a lot better at when I don't have to perform in front of a crowd!

[JohnN]

Funny how that works out.....

[joshs]

My personal best:

4.60: 1.62/.52/1.69/.28/.25/.24 (5x8 card substituted for body)

HK P30 VTGS - Don Hume H715 M.S.O (Appendix) - CCC BMC - untucked t-shirt

[rsa-otc]

Personal Best using cover garment:

M&P 45
Uncle Mikes Holster (not for street use)
Blade Tech double Mag Pouch

Holster & Mag Pouch located 3:30 & 8:30 respectively

5.85 - 1.82; .5; 2.82; .33; .17; .24 - Clean

[vcdgrips]

VCDgrips-Personal Best

6.10-1.99/.53/2.68/.31/.31/.28

KCPD Indoor Range, 3/18/11
-Glock 35, Gen 3, 3.5 lb OEM Con. w 5.5 lb trigger spring, Std OEM Slide Rel, OEM Ext Mag Release (stippled and shaped), Ameriglo Pro Operators,green front(orange painted), yellow rears (sharpied black)
-Keepers Kydex AIWB
-Alabama Holster Company Kydex IWB mag pouch
-Wilderness 1.5 inch CSM Frequent Flyer Belt (buckle offset at 3:30)
-1/4 Zip Closed Front Fleece Top

Breaking 6 is the goal before my 2 day Givens class April 9/10.

[LOKNLOD]

My best remains the 7.21 from AFHF last year. That was with a 2nd Gen Glock 19, Warren sights, "-" connector from a Raven Phantom and mag pouch.

At the time I was bummed not to break 7 and get on the "advanced" wall, but honestly it was a fair assessment of where I was at - sneaking onto the wall with a lucky run would have been just that: luck. If anything it's a testament to the FAST being a good test.

Next time I'm going to nail it. It's only the draw, press out, followup shot, reload, and recoil control holding me back :p

[dookie1481]

Jesus Christ you guys are good. I need practice.

[Prdator]

Jesus Christ you guys are good. I need practice.

:rolleyes: Maybe ask for help?? we'd be glad to.

Took my nephew out yesterday wile he's at home on leave from Big Green before he heads over to Afghanistan.
He did a 6.50 clean after we worked on the 3x5 card some. I did a 5.02 cold. ( clean) Reload was 2.23 so I HAVE to start working them agin!!!!!

[dookie1481]

:rolleyes: Maybe ask for help?? we'd be glad to.

Took my nephew out yesterday wile he's at home on leave from Big Green before he heads over to Afghanistan.
He did a 6.50 clean after we worked on the 3x5 card some. I did a 5.02 cold. ( clean) Reload was 2.23 so I HAVE to start working them agin!!!!!

I think I have enough KNOWLEDGE to become a proficient shooter. I just need to put in the work. And then work some more. Always a work in progress...

[JodyH]

First run with the new P30 was a 5.98 clean.
:cool:

[vcdgrips]

VCDgrips
6.08-New Personal Best
2.37/.67/2.26/.28/.25/.25
Glock 35
Keepers Kydex AIWB
CCC BMC


When compared to last week's 6.10, I lost a considerable amount of time on the head shots. I know I eye sprinted and slowed down as it was my third run and I wanted it clean. My reload was faster as I expected given with the CCC OWB pouch v. an IWB one. My splits were better as well.

I see some dry fire/manipulations with a timer in my future this week.
Live fire needs to be 2 shot drills on 3 x 5s set up horizontally.
My press outs need work.

Breaking 6 is the goal before my 2 day Givens here in KC class April 9/10.

[JodyH]

I'm slowly getting up to speed with the P30.
I could probably shave another .75 by trusting my press outs, but I just don't have the confidence in my alignment yet. My shots have all been there, I just don't have enough trigger time yet to KNOW the shot will be there without that added split second of double verification.
The result is my first shot from the draw and my reload are both .30 slower than they should be.
I'm also running .25 body splits when I should easily be right at .21 and my head split is around .60 when it should be closer to .30.
Today I had 3 straight clean runs:
5.95
5.73
5.99

[VolGrad]

At the time I was bummed not to break 7 and get on the "advanced" wall, but honestly it was a fair assessment of where I was at - sneaking onto the wall with a lucky run would have been just that: luck. If anything it's a testament to the FAST being a good test.
This is EXACTLY how I felt with my best during the AFHF class earlier this month ... 7.37 clean. I really wanted to make "Advanced" but I don't think that would have been a fair assessment of where I was/am at either.

[STS]

Tried the F.A.S.T today. Got cocky and it showed first run was 8.47. Watching the video made me think it was easier than it is. I forgot about the head shot and that was slowing me down.

Did four runs, final run was a 7.13 clean with a bone stock Springfield MC Operator. I would like to be sub 6's by this time next month.

[Michael Brown]

Shot it for the first time since last year's Tactical Conference today before work.

Uniform, body armor, Safariland SSIII, closed flap mag pouches, Glock 17.

1st run: 5.61
2nd run: 5.38
3rd run: 5.22

All clean.

Todd,

In June I'd like my coin to read #02 Ivy League:cool:

Michael Brown

[Prdator]

Freaking Awesome Mike!!!!!!!!
TLG is going to loose some Coin on this class!!!!!!

[vcdgrips]

Most impressive Michael Brown.


David Barnes

PS I am really going to try and make the class if I get get a couple of cases pled or continued. I simply want to watch you OK guys shoot.

[Saur]

Shot it for the first time since last year's Tactical Conference today before work.

Uniform, body armor, Safariland SSIII, closed flap mag pouches, Glock 17.

1st run: 5.61
2nd run: 5.38
3rd run: 5.22

All clean.

Todd,

In June I'd like my coin to read #02 Ivy League:cool:

Michael Brown


Holy cow!! Nice shooting, Mike!

[NickA]

From AFHF this weekend: 8.06 clean (final run), 9.01 (7.01 raw, down 1 head), other two runs were a mess. I too underestimated how hard those head shots are.

[JV_]

I've been working on my reloads, at half speed, making sure I perform another press-out. It's paying off:

5.42 Clean (2.27 reload).

I can probably speed up the splits on the body shots, they were running .27

I want a sub 5.0 run by the end of the year.

[Ifightcrime]

Nice run NickA you performed well and continued to improve throughout the class.

I enjoyed the class and look forward to the next time I can givethe F.A.S.T. drill a try.

[NickA]

I was just trying to keep up ;) you guys were where I THOUGHT I was before the class, and now you're even better. However when it comes to navigation..... :)

[Lon]

Greetings gents!

Been lurking for awhile and thought I'd start posting. I found this drill on another site and it led me here. I finally got out and tried it this morning. Tougher than I thought.

First run was 8 something just to give it a try. After a few runs I picked up the pace. Best run of the day was 5.28 from my duty gear level 3 Serpa and open top mag pouches (bianchi) with a stock 226 9mm. My reloads were slow cuz my slide never locks back. My thumb (thumbs forward grip) rides right on the slide lock so that slowed me down some.

Great drill. Gonna keep using this one in my practice sessions.

Be safe.

[LittleLebowski]

That was from concealment, Xpd54?

[Jay Cunningham]

Great drill. Gonna keep using this one in my practice sessions.

Be careful, because the FAST isn't really a drill - it's a test.

You should look very carefully at your split times, your target, and your total time. From that analysis you should move on to specific drills that address any issues that you're having. Go back and try the FAST again in a month.

[Lon]

That was from concealment, Xpd54?

No.. From my duty gear. Looking at the target again, I need to add .5 seconds to the total so it'd b 5.78.

[Prdator]

I want your Thoughts on this drill ran Support hand only, I'm recovering from R, shoulder surgery, so I've ran this once ( before surgery) SHO with a time of 10.38 clean.

I hope to get out this next week and run some if I can. What do you think a "good" time on this would be ran SHO?

[John Ralston]

Ran this for the first time this weekend - my best run was a 5.65 clean from concealment (untucked T-Shirt). This is an "Unofficial" run though, as I ran the FAST more than 3 times, and this was my last run.

1.71, .84, 2.33, .26, .26, .25

If I can get my 3x5 split down I will definitely shave some time off, and the reload is a tad slow, but not sure I could ever break 5 sec.

I have a pair of Heinie's on the way for the P30, and this should help with getting a better sight picture out of the holster and on the second head box shot.




Prdator -

How are you performing your reloads? That time seems like an excellent run, just curious about how your are addressing the reloads.

[Bratch]

He's putting the gun between his knees and holding it there during the reload.

He managed a 9.64 clean Saturday WHO that should have been a 9.14 except for a little bobble on one of his body splits.

[John Ralston]

Sounds like a fantastic time - I applaud the effort.

Is he running a LH Appendix Rig (might be the way to go since he can't draw from thw strong side). The reload might be quicker by reholstering - not sure though.

[Prdator]

Sounds like a fantastic time - I applaud the effort.

Is he running a LH Appendix Rig (might be the way to go since he can't draw from thw strong side). The reload might be quicker by reholstering - not sure though.

John,

Yep running a LH AIWB,

You know I've been thinking about re holstering and dong the reload there......
Just not sure I want to do that AIWB wile im in a hurry, but I'll do some dry and see what happens.

[John Ralston]

John,

Yep running a LH AIWB,

You know I've been thinking about re holstering and dong the reload there......
Just not sure I want to do that AIWB wile im in a hurry, but I'll do some dry and see what happens.

Just put the mag in while holstered, then drop the slide on your presentation to the target...don't want another injury to deal with.

[Bratch]

Just put the mag in while holstered, then drop the slide on your presentation to the target...don't want another injury to deal with.

I've been thinking about this some and I think that between the knees might be the best option.

To go back in the holster he is going to have to clear a closed front cover garment to get to the holster and mag, do something with the cover while reholstering and reloading and clear it to present again. All of this has to be accomplished WHO and for the first half of it with a gun in hand.

By going between the knees he only has to clear enough to get the mag out.

Thoughts?

[John Ralston]

That's an excellent point, given that the FAST is from concealment.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Rverdi]

Guys,
No drill, no timer, no situation warrants rushing to re-holster with an AIWB.
Keep replaying in your head...
1 mistake=traumatic personal injury.

[John Ralston]

Guys,
No drill, no timer, no situation warrants rushing to re-holster with an AIWB.
Keep replaying in your head...
1 mistake=traumatic personal injury.

After thinking about what I wrote, I decided to defer to your expertise - if you run the drill by reholstering, when it comes time to do it for real, you will revert to your training...and that could involve a hot weapon.

Between the knees it is...

Thanks for the input.

[Prdator]

Guys,
No drill, no timer, no situation warrants rushing to re-holster with an AIWB.
Keep replaying in your head...
1 mistake=traumatic personal injury.


I concur!!

I just want to use this as a test to see how my progress comes wile Im forced to run my gun WHO. I have found this is one place in my shooting I continue to neglect, now Im forced to fix that... I cant wait till my shoulder is up to speed... trust me..

John, that's good shooting man!!!!!! keep up the good work.

[John Ralston]

John, that's good shooting man!!!!!! keep up the good work.

Thanks! I think I could be very skilled with a handgun if I could afford to shoot more. I may have to start reloading 9mm. I do a lot of dry fire, but I really enjoy shooting live ammo about 1000 x's more. I am going to put a range book together with different drills to run each time I am out and do an eval about every 8 weeks or so. I won't likely ever be as good as the ToddG's of the world, but if I go down fighting, it won't be because I wasn't prepared!

[ToddG]

Shooting the F.A.S.T. more than three times in a day is cheating. There are some exceptions, but they pretty much apply only to folks who've earned challenge coins.
While I agree that reholstering a gun aiwb at speed under stress is bad, using the holster as a bucket is one of the advantages of aiwb. If the gun is empty or disabled, I will put it in the holster as part of a 1-handed manipulation. The whole "put it between your knees" thing seems very square-range to me. There are plenty of circumstances under which that may not be possible or ideal.

[John Ralston]

Shooting the F.A.S.T. more than three times in a day is cheating. There are some exceptions, but they pretty much apply only to folks who've earned challenge coins.
While I agree that reholstering a gun aiwb at speed under stress is bad, using the holster as a bucket is one of the advantages of aiwb. If the gun is empty or disabled, I will put it in the holster as part of a 1-handed manipulation. The whole "put it between your knees" thing seems very square-range to me. There are plenty of circumstances under which that may not be possible or ideal.


I knew it was cheating - but I don't follow rules or play well with others.

[JHC]

I shoot more and more different PT drills but do love cheating with the FAST drill. I'm starting to break that habit. :D

[JHC]

Tom Givens taught me/us what seemed a pretty strong method for using the strong side holster as a "bucket" for one hand reloading too. Normal holstered position for SHO and reversed "cavalry" style for WHO. I didn't see a huge need for the between the knees way. If I'm shot through one arm or shoulder, I'm not crazy about counting on maintaining that "adductor" pressure to hold my pistol.

[vcdgrips]

This am at the range:

5.64-1.77/.60/2.30/.35/.32/.30

-Glock 35, Gen 3, 3.5 lb OEM Con. w 5.5 lb trigger spring, Std OEM Slide Rel, OEM Ext Mag Release (stippled and shaped), Ameriglo Pro Operators,green front(orange painted), yellow rears (sharpied black)
-Keepers Kydex AIWB
-CCC BMC
-Wilderness 1.5 inch CSM Frequent Flyer Belt (buckle offset at 3:30)
-1/4 Zip Closed Front Fleece Top
-Speer 180g TMJ

I am happy to have broken 6 seconds and seem to be doing so in terms of time more and more in the past few weeks. Accuracy, particularly in the head, is still another matter ;)

Perfect press out practice here I come.

David

[Prdator]

This am at the range:

5.64-1.77/.60/2.30/.35/.32/.30

-Glock 35, Gen 3, 3.5 lb OEM Con. w 5.5 lb trigger spring, Std OEM Slide Rel, OEM Ext Mag Release (stippled and shaped), Ameriglo Pro Operators,green front(orange painted), yellow rears (sharpied black)
-Keepers Kydex AIWB
-CCC BMC
-Wilderness 1.5 inch CSM Frequent Flyer Belt (buckle offset at 3:30)
-1/4 Zip Closed Front Fleece Top
-Speer 180g TMJ

I am happy to have broken 6 seconds and seem to be doing so in terms of time more and more in the past few weeks. Accuracy, particularly in the head, is still another matter ;)

Perfect press out practice here I come.

David



Awesome man:cool:

The effort you are putting in is paying off!!!!!!!

[JHC]

Shooting the F.A.S.T. more than three times in a day is cheating. There are some exceptions, but they pretty much apply only to folks who've earned challenge coins.
.


oooooookay. Today first round fired was the first round of a 5.86 clean FAST drill and only ran one more which was quicker but dropped a hit on the 3x5. Then worked on drills pulled from the 99 drill. (Thanks much JodyH). (all Gen 4 G19)

Really diggin' the Hack front sight paired with a Warren Sevigny Carry rear.

[Pennzoil]

I usually run this drill at the beginning of my range session @ mid 6 seconds clean with best time so far being 6.11 seconds.

Here is my first attempt at low light Fast drill last night. First shot and reload was where I added my time from normal daylight runs.

8.02 seconds 3.13/.67/2.96/.52/.39/.35
-1 head- had to edit out my cussing at end due to knowing I dropped my second shot on the head as I lost my front sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMAfIAMQ0kc

[KentF]

OK, I shot my first FAST test today... Don't laugh! P30 in a Comp-Tac paddle holster un-tucked t-shirt.

19.45 seconds (4 misses): 4.63/1.85/4.98/.63/.73/.60

I missed both 3X5 shots - 1st 2.5" low (just inside the circle at 12 O'clock), 2nd just inside the circle at about 2:30. I have no idea where my other two misses went.
On a positive note, I can only get better :rolleyes:

[NickA]

Personal best today while at the range with SkyLine1: 5.99 clean followed by a 6.18 clean. I was shocked, that's a second better than any other run of mine, but I think the pressout and reload are starting to gel.

[bentnbroken]

Wow, you guys are good.......... Kent, me and you buddy we got work to do!
13. something unclean, not sure if I had shaved that morning either.:cool:

[Kyle Reese]

Keep at it- you'll improve. It took me 10 months to break under 7 seconds, and I just last week broke under 6.




OK, I shot my first FAST test today... Don't laugh! P30 in a Comp-Tac paddle holster un-tucked t-shirt.

19.45 seconds (4 misses): 4.63/1.85/4.98/.63/.73/.60

I missed both 3X5 shots - 1st 2.5" low (just inside the circle at 12 O'clock), 2nd just inside the circle at about 2:30. I have no idea where my other two misses went.
On a positive note, I can only get better :rolleyes:

[Frank B]

OK, I shot my first FAST test today... Don't laugh! P30 in a Comp-Tac paddle holster un-tucked t-shirt.

19.45 seconds (4 misses): 4.63/1.85/4.98/.63/.73/.60

I missed both 3X5 shots - 1st 2.5" low (just inside the circle at 12 O'clock), 2nd just inside the circle at about 2:30. I have no idea where my other two misses went.
On a positive note, I can only get better :rolleyes:

Kent, I know how this feel. Improving takes some time. It´s also a different animal to shoot this drill in front of the entire class.

[jbmilitary006]

My first time to shoot the FAST drill. I shot open so had to add .50 sec. Time was 6.54 with the .50 sec added.

First time to shoot the Dot torture, I hit 45 out of 50.

First time to shoot the 3-Two-1 drill, time was 3.45

First time to shoot 26662 drill, best time was 3.58, dropped 3 rds out of 30.

[ToddG]

My first time to shoot the FAST drill. I shot open so had to add .50 sec. Time was 6.54 with the .50 sec added.

Just to be clear, the 0.50 second penalty is for shooting a retention holster that has an open top, like a Safariland ALS or Blackhawk Serpa. A plain-jane range holster or concealment holster shot without a concealment garment doesn't have a penalty, it's simply not doing the drill properly.

I've been toying with the idea of creating a penalty for folks who insist on doing it from range/open rigs. The penalty would probably be 2-3 seconds.

[JHC]

The penalty would probably be 2-3 seconds.

Fair enough if you do; especially to drive home the point of the purpose of the excercise, but I've timed only a 0.5 sec difference between open hip carry and sweeping a jacket.

[jbmilitary006]

I don't own a retention holster and have no use for one. Shooting from concealment is not a problem. I guess I will have to take whatever penalty you come up with. My ITWB has no retention nor does my custom drop leg holster thats on my war belt. Sorry meant to specify what I meant as "open". I was referring to my holster being open top without retention.

[John Ralston]

So, I ran a pretty good run today - but I'm not sure if this would be considered clean.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/58123655@N04/5745036208/

Any other critiques (besides the unothodox shooting range that is my Parents Back 40)?


ETA - well, I double checked the "Rules", and the body zone is supposed to be 8", so at worst, that 4th shot would be touching the edge of an 8" circle. I'm calling it clean : )

[JHC]

It's a FINE run either way IMO. I can't nit pick anything else with my own hybrid forms from adopting the modern TTP on top of more than 30 years with the Bill Jordan drawstroke. ;)

[joshs]

Any other critiques?

Your losing the most time on the reload. Your shooting, especially the split on the card, is easily fast enough to run sub 5. There is a definite pause after you shoot the second shot on the card and before you begin to move your weak hand to the magazine. As soon as you see the sights lift on the second shot, you should start your reload. Also, you appear to be looking at your head shots while you are doing the reload, don't. If you missed a headshot, you are much more likely to affect your reload or body shots. Even if you made both head shots, looking at them isn't going to help your reload.

[John Ralston]

Thanks -

1R2 drills to come. Not sure if I was looking at the head shots or not - don't recall doing it, but I could be (and after looking at the video again - I sure am looking at them).

Hoping my Heinie's will show up soon, as I really don't care for the factory sights, and I think I could pick up some time on the head box with better sights.

[ToddG]

ETA - well, I double checked the "Rules", and the body zone is supposed to be 8", so at worst, that 4th shot would be touching the edge of an 8" circle. I'm calling it clean : )

Definitely clean if the circle was 6 7/8".

The double-pump at the magazine pouch is what killed your reload. Also, personally I would try to keep the gun higher during the reload. There is no reason to drop it down and move it back up, that just eats time and adds to the chance for fumbling something.

If you can consistently pull off sub 0.40 splits on the 3x5 with 100% hits, you're doing something very right indeed.

[John Ralston]

Definitely clean if the circle was 6 7/8". YEAH!!

The double-pump at the magazine pouch is what killed your reload. Also, personally I would try to keep the gun higher during the reload. There is no reason to drop it down and move it back up, that just eats time and adds to the chance for fumbling something.

The double pump was trying to clear my shirt before grabbing the mag - it had been giving me fits (too tight of a fit actually - and after seeing that video I am now on a new exercise plan :mad: ). Definitely dropped the gun too low (while checking out the target) - need to take care of that, and it will be the focus of next weeks practice.

Are you able to clear the shirt and grab the mag in one smooth motion?

[ToddG]

Are you able to clear the shirt and grab the mag in one smooth motion?

I'm going to have to wait to get home to watch the video again, internet here at the hotel is just too slow. But my recollection is that it looked like you grabbed at the shirt twice, then got your hand on the mag. If I saw it wrong, sorry.

[Prdator]

John,

Very nice run man!!!!!!!! keep that up and a Coin is in your grasp.

Here is what I see in the Vid that is costing you time.
1, you have a bit of a "bobbal" on the press out, try and bring the gun a bit higher and then go strait out.

2, as others have said your looking at the 3x5 card hits..DONT... move strait to the reload.

3, it looks like the mag pouch is a bit tight as when you get your mag you can see your whole belt lift before the mag comes out of the pouch.

4, work on clearing that shirt more on the reload, I do this with dry practice and a weighted mag, using custom dummy rounds. Have some one that reloads make you some.

5, work in some "Bill Drills" and your body shots will improve as well as your splits during them.

Just my 2c man!!!! You really have some great shooting going on there.

[John Ralston]

Thanks for the insight - I am going to lay off the FAST and focus on getting my technique better (for a month or so), and see if I can't hit something in the 4's...

I have been doing a TON of dry fire practice lately...ammo budget isn't where it needs to be :cool:

[ToddG]

Thanks for the insight - I am going to lay off the FAST and focus on getting my technique better (for a month or so),

Absolutely the best plan. Folks who try to get better at the FAST by shooting the FAST a lot are missing the boat. The way to get better is to improve the individual fundamentals. Plus, by working on the skills rather than the test, you develop better skill rather than just a better test score.

Good work and keep it up!

[jetfire]

Absolutely the best plan. Folks who try to get better at the FAST by shooting the FAST a lot are missing the boat. The way to get better is to improve the individual fundamentals. Plus, by working on the skills rather than the test, you develop better skill rather than just a better test score.

Good work and keep it up!

Plus, those people are dirty, dirty grandbaggers. ;)

[ToddG]

Plus, those people are dirty, dirty grandbaggers. ;)

Failed ones, at that. If my multiple "50 FAST Days" showed me anything it's that drilling it over and over again isn't going to improve things. Working on the discrete skills:

draw to a lowprob target
followup on a lowprob target
reload
multiple hits on a highprob target

... is going to give me useful everyday skills that apply to a lot more than just the FAST and improve my FAST times simultaneously.

[jetfire]

Word. For example, when I'm preparing for an IDPA match, I'll do lots of practicing drawing and firing two shots to the 3x5 card. If I can hit that on demand from concealment in 2ish seconds, it helps my FAST times sure, but more importantly it makes hitting an IDPA head box a trivial exercise.

[DJR]

My personal best is 6.13: 2.23, .74 / 2.27 / .32, .29, .28

I shot a 6.30 clean at AFHF this weekend. It looks like the 3x5 shots are where I can pick up the most time. More press outs to small targets for me in the future.

[beltjones]

Failed ones, at that. If my multiple "50 FAST Days" showed me anything it's that drilling it over and over again isn't going to improve things. Working on the discrete skills:

draw to a lowprob target
followup on a lowprob target
reload
multiple hits on a highprob target

... is going to give me useful everyday skills that apply to a lot more than just the FAST and improve my FAST times simultaneously.

Not to try to one-up Todd or anything, but I'd like to offer a perspective that helped me a lot on this drill.

I found myself consistently dropping the second shot on the 3x5 card. I realized it was a matter of follow through on the shot before the reload; in other words, getting the support hand off the gun too soon was causing me to miss the card. I now think of this test as the following steps:

1. Draw to a lowprob target
2. Shot on a lowprob target, reload, shot on high prob target
3. Half a Bill Drill.

Following through on that first shot in step number two means maybe .05 seconds, but the result is I stopped dropping that headshot. Once I stopped dropping the headshot, it meant I could go faster everywhere else because before the problem was diagnosed I would go unnecessarily slowly on both headshots, instead of going at my normal speed and having the discipline to follow through on the second shot.

That one little change is a big part of what allowed me to go from low 5's to low 4's high 3's.

[John Ralston]

I ran some press out drills today on a 3x5 card...first half of the exercise wasn't so great, until I realized I wasn't shifting my focus completely to the front sight. Once I moved past that hickup I was able to get consistent hits on the 3x5 card at 7 yards. I think this will help me to keep from checking out my hits during the reload, and should allow me to focus completely on the reload portion of the drill. I will be working on reloads at my next session.

[Ray Keith]

So I bum a shot timer, print a target and run this drill for the first time. I wrote down the splits but don't have them in front of me. I was not doing the drill properly because I had no cover garmet...but it was humbling enough. 6.98 with a seemingly panic stricken bumbling reload that resulted in a blood blister on my support palm...all with no one watching...OKC at the end of the month should be traumatic...

After that I did some 1 R 2 to remind myself that I am capable of a decent reload...

A humbling test, I hope attempt #2 at it some other time is a more smooth process. I plan to go home and review more of the drills on Todd's site and while I'm at it take my first crack at enumerative combinatorics to polish off the day... :o

[Prdator]

So I bum a shot timer, print a target and run this drill for the first time. I wrote down the splits but don't have them in front of me. I was not doing the drill properly because I had no cover garmet...but it was humbling enough. 6.98 with a seemingly panic stricken bumbling reload that resulted in a blood blister on my support palm...all with no one watching...OKC at the end of the month should be traumatic..:o

You'll have plenty of oportuinity to get it right in the class!! so don't fret to much..

And if it makes you feel better I tried part of the 99 drill, 3 rds on a 3x5 card at 7 yds in 2.5sec..... did it three times and never hit the card.....:mad: This shoulder surgery has more missed up than I thought...

[Prdator]

Well today was "okay" range day, my third since the Doc cleared me to shoot. After some good drills and a few screams! I did a few FAST runs with a 4.85 clean and a 4.75 -1 body ( what we would call a "High Quality Miss" in OK.. :cool: They honestly felt really slow and I could "see" wasted time in the press out and the reload, so with a few weeks till TLG gets to OK and a great class set up with TDSA this coming weekend, I have great confidence I'll take some change from Todd.

[beltjones]

Well today was "okay" range day, my third since the Doc cleared me to shoot. After some good drills and a few screams! I did a few FAST runs with a 4.85 clean and a 4.75 -1 body ( what we would call a "High Quality Miss" in OK.. :cool: They honestly felt really slow and I could "see" wasted time in the press out and the reload, so with a few weeks till TLG gets to OK and a great class set up with TDSA this coming weekend, I have great confidence I'll take some change from Todd.

Nice! Have you taken a class with TDSA before? They have some very avante garde theories on trigger control that helped me immensely. If you haven't been exposed to it before it will fly in the face of conventional wisdom, but stick with it. It works.

[Prdator]

Nice! Have you taken a class with TDSA before? They have some very avante garde theories on trigger control that helped me immensely. If you haven't been exposed to it before it will fly in the face of conventional wisdom, but stick with it. It works.

I've not had a class from TDSA yet, I have been in a class ( Tom Givens Instructor class) with Marshal and his guys, it was a HOOT!!
I know of his "Slack Out" trigger prep and to be honest that is what I did before I learned I was doing it wrong! I'm way open to try it, so we'll see what happens, It kinda sounds like the "Slack Out" is simalar to the Rogers "Flip and Press" but I've only heard second hand on that. Im really hoping that the class will give me a really good tune up!!! I've got to work the Press Out and reloads!!!

[vcdgrips]

This am at the range:

5.26-1.73/.45/2.32/.27/.25/.24

-Glock 35, Gen 3, 3.5 lb OEM Con. w 5.5 lb trigger spring, Std OEM Slide Rel, OEM Ext Mag Release (stippled and shaped), Ameriglo Pro Operators,green front(orange painted), yellow rears (sharpied black)
-Keepers Kydex AIWB
-CCC BMC
-Wilderness 1.5 inch CSM Frequent Flyer Belt (buckle offset at 3:30)
Old Navy Wicking T-Shirt
-Speer 180g TMJ

I am happy to have broken 6 seconds again. Accuracy, particularly in the head at 95-100% speed, is not consistant. I suspect I am at the edge of my lane and 6 ish is my "zone".

I have been dry firing 4-5 nights a week for 5 to 10 minutes immediately after changing out of my work clothes for the last month as my range time has been reduced due to work stuff etc. I suspect that is paying some dividends with my press out.

Carving out dedicated dry fire time has become a priority. My clothes change from jacket and tie to casual has to happen nearly every day so why not dry fire during the transition? (THANK YOU Todd G for that nugget!!!)

David Barnes
www.vcdgrips.com

[Prdator]

I had the most inconstant range session tonight, I was all over the place, Sub 2 sec reloads to 4+ second reloads, 3 rounds on a 3X5 card at 7 yds in 2.00 with all three hits to 3.5 sec with all three misses.... :mad:

But I ended the session with some FAST runs and had a 4.85 -1 head a 4.75 -1 body and a 4.40 CLEAN!! My best fast time yet.. So maybe with a few more range sessions planed Ill get in a groove before TLG gets here next week.

[ToddG]

before TLG gets here next week.

I'm thinking about changing the program and not doing the FAST in classes anymore, actually.

Kidding. :cool:

[Prdator]

I'm thinking about changing the program and not doing the FAST in classes anymore, actually.

Kidding. :cool:

This came to me in a Vision so its old news to me:p Also in the Vision has you losing some "Change" in OK.... :cool:

[John Ralston]

Damn Dude - 4.40?!?!?! Nicely done.

[Prdator]

Well Im still having consistency issues!! Tonight's range trip proved that!! I did get some video off my wife's Ipad so Ill be whatching them to see if I can
see what it is Im doing wrong.
My FAST times tonight were
5.08 -1 body, Had a Horrible grip on the gun after the reload
4.64 -1 head, was not Really watching the front sight, more looking though them.
4.36 CLEAN!!! ( my best time yet!!:cool:)

This week will have me doing draws with press outs, reloads and positive self talk ( That's hard for me to do) Then we'll see how it turns out this next weekend.

[Mr_White]

Hello All,

I've been lurking from the beginning of P-F.com, but I don't usually say much on forums. Thanks to Todd and everyone for a very enjoyable forum!

I took some video this morning of three cold, legitimate FAST runs. The times were:

.94/.24/1.58/.22/.21/.19 = 3.38 (-2 head) = 7.38
1.04/.28/2.11/.21/.21/.20 = 4.05 Clean. A new personal best for me for a legitimate run! But oh, the blown reload! If I had nailed the reload, I would have had the record (probably not official since it was not at a P-T.com class or recognized event.)
1.01/.27/1.55/.22/.20/.20 = 3.45 (-1 head, -2 body) = 7.45

My fastest raw speed ever on the FAST is 3.25 (-2 body.) Prdator, I know I told you 3.25 (-1 head.) I was mistaken. After referring to my notes, I see that I was crossing wires between that and a different run.

The obvious criticism of the above runs is all the missed shots. I have a very hard time slowing down and shooting it clean. I think inconsistency is the biggest problem in my shooting. I have a very hard time treating the FAST like the shooting test it is, and instead shoot it like my life depends on the speed. I get very wrapped up in the results on the timer instead of the results on the target, which is the opposite of what I should be doing. I know that is wrong of me per the philosophy and design of the test; it is simply a personal shortcoming, a lack of mental discipline, that I don't make myself shoot it the way it is supposed to be shot.

Video is below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmxPrwk4heo

I also shot a personal best illegitimate run today (extra runs after the legit three runs.) Please don't hate me for being a cheater!

.99/.25/1.63/.21/.21/.20 = 3.49 Clean

Please pardon my swearing and babbling in this video. I got kind of excited!

Video is below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v670fE2GIJo

I haven't watched myself shooting on video in a very long time. It sure does show me a lot! I cannot believe how bent my arms are. They clearly need to be more extended than they are. I will definitely be working on that. I can see myself shoving the gun down onto the magazine on some reloads. That also seems like a point of error and inefficiency. I didn't know I was doing that either, and I am not sure why I am. I think it might be helping me activate the slide stop lever, but after the magazine is actually inserted perhaps. Not sure on that one.

Again, thanks to Todd and all the members here. I very much enjoy Pistol-Forum.com!

Gabriel White

[JHC]

I cannot believe how bent my arms are. They clearly need to be more extended than they are. Gabriel White

WHY???? ;)

I have a guess as to why. Back in the early 90's I was leaving the Weaver Stance of my '80's and working on the "Modern Iso" and settled on that both arms equally bent, centered in front of the face. I could crank out some very fast first hits shooting the BHPs and P7 I used a lot back then. I changed to full extension based on the counsel/training etc that it's a very hard to resist stress response and it's the dominant method by the dominant top shooters. FWIW.

I enjoyed the vids. What holster was that?

[Mr_White]

WHY???? ;)

I have a guess as to why. Back in the early 90's I was leaving the Weaver Stance of my '80's and working on the "Modern Iso" and settled on that both arms equally bent, centered in front of the face. I could crank out some very fast first hits shooting the BHPs and P7 I used a lot back then. I changed to full extension based on the counsel/training etc that it's a very hard to resist stress response and it's the dominant method by the dominant top shooters. FWIW.

I enjoyed the vids. What holster was that?

Thank you JHC! Glad you liked them. You almost didn't get to see them because I was very foolish in not bringing the AC adapter for the camcorder and it ran out of batteries, so I drove home, plugged it in, and burned the dvd. Fortunately, the video was still there. Whew!

Honestly, I thought I was extending my arms more than I was. They are not bent that far on purpose. You may be right that I am simply stopping the gun early (unconsciously) to fire the first shot sooner. I tried a other few drills with my arms more deliberately out to about 90% extension, not elbows locked, but close, and immediately felt an improvement in recoil control and saw a few split times that are better than I usually have, so I will continue exploring that.

The holster is a Blade-Tech Nano that I've modified to be more suitable for AIWB carry (for me.) I love it so much I have yet to buy a holster that is actually designed for AIWB.

[JV_]

I shot my personal best this weekend:

5.23s
Clean
Cold
With a new gun (Glock 19 rather than a 17)

[JHC]

I shot my personal best this weekend:

5.23s
Clean
Cold
With a new gun (Glock 19 rather than a 17)

Nice. Did you swap out sights on the new 19 yet? If so, to what?

[JV_]

Nice. Did you swap out sights on the new 19 yet? If so, to what?All of my Glocks wear Heinie Ledge sights.

[JodyH]

Shot the FAST for the first time in over a month.
4.87 clean
4.77 -1H (6.77)
4.97 -1B (5.97)

[John Ralston]

Again, thanks to Todd and all the members here. I very much enjoy Pistol-Forum.com!

Gabriel White

Some damn nice shooting!

[DonovanM]

...

Nice shooting! Nice draw especially. You should be able to shave some time off your reload if you didn't jerk the gun down like that. It's tough to see but it also looks like you're holding the mag like a candy bar? If so you should be able to get some more consistency and speed on entering the magwell if you hold it like this:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/Speed_reload_mag20detail_1a.gif

[Mr_White]

Nice shooting! Nice draw especially. You should be able to shave some time off your reload if you didn't jerk the gun down like that. It's tough to see but it also looks like you're holding the mag like a candy bar? If so you should be able to get some more consistency and speed on entering the magwell if you hold it like this:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/dosei/Speed_reload_mag20detail_1a.gif

You mean you don't hold your candy bars with that grip? :D

I grip both magazines and candy bars as depicted in your photo, though I don't always get as deep a grip on the magazine as is shown in your photo, due to the unusual magazine carrier I use (two Dale Fricke Archangels, duct taped together to make a double pouch, angled and staggered, at 11:30 and 12:00 under a closed front shirt. Small knife at 11:00 and G34 at 1:00.) Sometimes I end up coming up with the magazine in that grip, but without my finger reaching the nose of the bullet, like when a person with very small hands and a long magazine uses that grip.

Seriously, thanks John Ralston and DonovanM for the compliments!

Working furiously on correcting the issues I can see from the videos.

[Prdator]

A few thought's on the FAST TEST..

I see ( and am Guilty of) folks posting there best times and I'm all for that! but having been driven totally nuts by the test Im starting to see a different side to it. It is a TEST not a DRILL, Its what you do to test your ability to do several Fundamental handgun skills, not build them.

So with that said Im starting to think of the TEST as a Cumulative score test, so Lets say on your Three Ligit runs you do a 4.6 -1 head ( 6.6) a 5.5 clean and a 4.4 -1 head and 2 body's ( 8.4) for a Total time of 20.5. Wile the individual times are "FAST" the total time is average (ISH) But if you did 3 Clean runs at 6.0 flat each you would have a total score of 18. I would argue that the "better", lower total time score would better represent the True ability of the shooter.

Im Not saying that you should not push yourself on this TEST, but as I've heard TLG tell me Oh more times than I care to mention, "Go as fast as you can Guarantee hits"!! So lets look at my last time I did the three ligit runs, this was Cold and in front of TLG, a 5.06 clean, 5.36 clean and a 4.74 -1 head and 2 body ( 8.74) so that day my time was 19.19, so there it is, would a total 18 sec run be a better representative of my shooting capability?

Thoughts?

[Mr_White]

Prdator,

I have a few thoughts that may or may not be directly related...

I am certainly one of the guilty parties in going for the best score I can on the FAST, never mind the consistency. The videos I posted started as a specific exploration of raw speed, as part of our ongoing conversation. It would be accurate to characterize them as me going as fast as I can, dragging the accuracy along kicking and screaming. I recognize that is not the way the FAST is supposed to be shot, but I also don't believe an exploration of raw speed completely lacks value. I think I benefit from setting high goals of getting more speed and more accuracy, and practicing to reach it, in an attempt to just plain do better, rather than simply trading speed and accuracy back and forth interchangeably, and not trying to just get more of both (credit to Flexmoney from another forum for that idea.)

Your idea of looking at a cumulative score seems good. Maybe it emphasizes consistency of perfect hits even more than one run of the FAST. That might be good for me.

I think the whole thing begs the question of "what is better?" and "better for what?"

Different tests, drills, etc., have different scoring systems. Three good timed and scored tests I know of, and use every couple of months or so, include the FAST, the IDPA Classifier, and the Rangemaster Core Handgun Skills test (which you were so kind to post, thanks!)

Due to the different scoring systems used in each of those, a different emphasis on speed and accuracy is created.

The FAST test very strongly emphasizes accuracy over speed, due to the seriously gnarly penalties for shots dropped out of the 3x5 into say, the mouth area. Oh wait, there I go again treating it like the rest of the silhouette counts for anything - I think I would do better if I just had an 8" circle and 3x5 card floating in empty space. That's a good lesson for me, that I should think more in those terms.

The IDPA Classifer also emphasizes accuracy over speed, but not as strongly as the FAST. The penalties for dropped shots are about half the penatlies on the FAST, but are still enough to make accuracy more important than speed.

The Rangemaster Core Handgun Skills Test makes speed and accuracy nearly equal. I've found it very curious that when I shoot it a couple of times, one with blazing speed and dragging the accuracy along kicking and screaming, and the other run with control, trying to get all hits in the designated target zones, and dragging the speed along, I find that the two scores are almost the same. The targets look fairly different though. The first one is pretty ugly, with quite a few C-zone hits. The second one looks great, with very few C-zone hits. The scores are about the same, though often a couple of points higher on the speed run.

Which way is better, and better for what? Which way is better I think has more to do with the scoring system used by a given test. Then we have to ask, what is the test supposed to represent?

I hope I am not going too far out on a limb when I say that it seems the FAST is simply a shooting and gunhandling test, and is not supposed to necessarily represent any actual recommended engagement process. The IDPA Classifier and RMCHST seem to contain elements that are an attempt at being more representative of various self-defense engagement processes (The IDPA Classifier certainly also contains some wacky stuff in that regard, but IDPA itself is an attempt at having a competition that maintains self-defensive relevance.)

Different circumstances in self-defense could certainly call for different emphases on the speed/accuracy equation. If it's just me and him three yards away, and a brick wall behind him, it is time for maximum speed. If I have to shoot him in the eye at seven or ten yards, out from behind a loved one, I am NOT breaking that shot at .99 seconds.

For the purpose of the FAST (simply testing shooting and gunhandling skills with the scoring penalties used), I clearly should guarantee the hits, whatever that takes. Right now, that might mean slowing down. However, I am unconvinced that I cannot learn to hit twice on that 3x5 at seven yards consistently, in about 1.25 seconds. If I don't keep trying, I won't get there. I don't believe it's impossible. And I think I am willing to do the work to get there. Only time will tell.

I also don't believe that repeatedly shooting the FAST, the IDPA Classifier, the RMCHST, or any other shooting test, will make you any better at the test. I've shot them enough to recognize that as a fact, at least for me. It is relentless drilling of the skills involved in them that will ultimately produce a better score, as so many here have said so many times.

I like your idea Prdator. It might be a good way for me to put the emphasis where it needs to be for the FAST. I've been drilling and practicing skills a whole lot lately, so I'll try it again (with video pressure!) in a couple of months and see if I improved. But regardless of that, I am sure having a great time along the way!!! Life is great!

[Little Creek]

Does anyone else out there like the idea of shooting the 4 in the 8" circle first, then a slide lock reload and the two in the 3"x5". In the field, wouldn't yu shoot the Center of Mass first. The F.A.S.T. in reverse could then be a self defense drill and not just a test of skill. What do you think?

[seabiscuit]

I think ToddG has an explanation of this on pistol-training.com somewhere, but I couldn't find it. It has to do with testing the draw to a low probability target, and then transitioning to a high prob target where your splits should be faster.

[ToddG]

F.A.S.T. F.A.Q.

(http://pistol-training.com/archives/976)Quick answer: the F.A.S.T. is not intended as a drill, it's a test of specific skills set up in a specific way. As seabiscuit explained, the idea behind the shooting order is to force a precise first shot under time pressure. The drill was developed while I and my shooting parter were carrying SIGs and it was important to me that the test put a premium on being able to make a very good fast & accurate double action hit from the holster.

[JHC]

It's not a drill. But . . . the first stage of it might be good training for putting down the jihadi who throws open his coat revealing a vest bomb with trigger in hand shouting allahu akbar. Israeli grocery shoppers have deal that with a burst to the brain pan.

[beltjones]

Not every shooting drill needs to have a direct and obvious comparison to a possible self-defense scenario. Some of them are just great for testing and developing one's fundamentals, and that's enough.

It's like going to a boxing gym and complaining that jumping rope doesn't have an obvious purpose when learning to hit someone. However, to the initiated it's obvious that jumping rope builds footwork, foot speed, endurance, and rhythm - all things essential to being a good boxer.

Take it for what it is - a very valuable and low-round-count "standard" that can diagnose all kinds of fundamental issues with your shooting. The more anyone tries to change into something it's not, the more they lose the benefit of the test in the first place.

[ToddG]

Back to Prdator's post...

I agree wholeheartedly about using the F.A.S.T. as a skills test and not a practice routine. The main reason is that the F.A.S.T. requires you to do so many different things -- draw, multiple shots on a low-prob target, reload, multiple shots on a high-prob target -- that you're not really drilling one thing over and over. You're not putting your mental and physical effort into your reload, for example, if you're also trying to pull off the better part of a Bill Drill.

The idea about reporting total score for three runs instead of just the best run is totally valid. In fact, years back SLG and I wrote up our own shooting game rulebook and we used the cumulative score from three FASTs as a ranking system:



Class
Semiauto
Revolver


Master
< 15.00 seconds
< 18.00 seconds


A
15.01 - 19.50 seconds
18.01 - 23.40 seconds


B
19.51 - 27.30 seconds
23.41 – 32.75 seconds


C
27.31 - 38.25 seconds
32.76 - 45.85 seconds


D
38.26 + seconds
45.85 + seconds



The penalty system was a little less strict, though. Most misses would have counted only 1 second or so to your time regardless of whether they were to the head or the body. Though complete misses of the entire head (IDPA target) would have had a 5-second penalty each, which is obviously much stricter than the "normal" F.A.S.T.

[Slavex]

At class Saturday night we started with FAST. My first run was 3.74 clean. Newt run after everyone was else was 3.80 clean. Last run at the end of the night after shooting some my worst demos before having students do drills, was 3.76 clean.
Not a single proper pressout on the draw either. I was pissed at myself. All night whenever I shot I worked on pressouts. Except when it came time to do the drill. All 3 times I stages the trigger and did more of a "now" te finish once I saw my sights were there. The pressout to the circle after the reload was good, but I need to keep working on the pressout to the card.
Also, these were not done from concealment or duty/retention holsters. Bladetech DOH with DAA mag pouches. I don't shoot IDPA I shoot IPSC, so that's how I practice. I did however move back one pouch each run for the mags. First run first pouch, 2nd run 2nd pooch and 3rd run 3rd pouch.

[JHC]

I totally can appreciate the drive to perfection and excellence regarding getting that press out as picture perfect as in the fun shots of espresso vid . . . but holy smokes man, 3 clean sub 4.0 runs! I am still working on ingraining the press out. Decades of pre-existing "Bill Jordan" swing manifest when I'm target and speed focused.

[JV_]

but holy smokes man, 3 clean sub 4.0 runs!It wasn't done from concealment. Concealment makes a BIG difference.

[JHC]

It wasn't done from concealment. Concealment makes a BIG difference.

Seems to depend a lot on the mode of concealment yes? Untucked T shirt etc is much more challenging than an open jacket. I have not found an open garment with hip carry to slow the FAST down much (.5 sec sometimes). Is that not universal experience?

OTOH, he was using a racing rig which must be a factor too. OK, got that. Sub 4.0 is still fast FAST.

[JV_]

As with many things, it depends. It's not just about the garment, but how you carry (AIWB or traditional IWB). Sometimes you lose some time on the draw and make it up on the reload.


Sub 4.0 is still fast FAST.Just a nit: An 'unconcealed FAST' is not a FAST. Comparing the two is of (almost) no value.

[jetfire]

Pulling from a bunch of data I have, there is about a 0.50-1.00 second variance on FAST times from "unconcealed" (which isn't a true FAST) vs. concealed. I run the FAST three times at the start of every practice regardless of whether I'm practicing for USPSA or an IDPA match, which means I've run it a bunch from under a concealment garment and a bunch from my USPSA rig. The biggest reason I do this is because FAST tells me pretty quickly how I "feel" that day in terms of shooting. If my 3 runs go smooth, I'm probably going to have a good practice session and should try and push myself, if my 3 runs are rough then I'll look at the rough parts and focus on those.

[Slavex]

I've found on average using the same holster but belt mounted instead of DOH and a double mag pouch, under a loose jacket adds at most .5 of a second. But I don't shoot that way normally so I don't practice it that way normally.

[Kevin B.]

I had a few rounds left over and ran this for the first time last night. I used an IPSC target since that is what I had on-hand. I substituted credit card for the 3x5 card and the upper A-zone for the 8" circle, so I suppose it was not a true FAST. Still, it gave me a good baseline of my performance.

Shot a 6.58 clean.

1911 w/X-300
Safariland 6004
Eagle FB mag pouches

I definitely have some areas I could clean up. A sub-6.00 is definitely doable for me. I would be interested to see what I can do from concealment.

[ToddG]

KB -- The IPSC head box A-zone is substantially smaller than a 3x5. Quite a few folks have run the FAST that way and there's no question it demands a lot more time for a clean run.

[JM Campbell]

I never thought about using Credit Cards for this....new debt reduction technique...I wonder if we could cross reference this to Congress :D

[Kevin B.]

KB -- The IPSC head box A-zone is substantially smaller than a 3x5. Quite a few folks have run the FAST that way and there's no question it demands a lot more time for a clean run.

As I discovered...

I had myself convinced that it would not be that big of an issue right up until the timer sounded and I got on the sights. I am fairly certain that using the 3x5 will get me pretty close to a 6.00. The headshots ate up a lot of time.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

On that note...the first time I went to the range to try the, "Dot Torture," and, "FAST," drills, I honestly had a, "DAMN! I SUCK!" moment.

Dot Torture went fine, but I couldn't get past the 7.5 or 8 second range (clean) on a total of four attempts at the FAST (2 cold, 2 at the end). I talked to the guys at the range, who are all USPSA guys, and they thought it looked tough too. I left scratching my head...

That night, a gnome that sometimes lives in my basement named Paul Gomez came by and I shared my findings with him. He asked to see the targets. He said they looked good, but that I overlooked something. "What's that?" He said, "You didn't print them on legal sized paper...idiot."

DOH! I found the drill to be easier (but not easy) with a, "regulation," sized target. Lesson learned.

[dsa]

1.70, .42, 2.60, .33, .23, .23 = 5.51sec

Gen4 G17 w/ a Ghost Ranger #4.5 connector, #6 Wolf trigger spring, Defoor Tactical sights and a newly added Grip Force Adapter
Shaggy AIWB & BMC
Gecco 124 gr ammo

This is a pretty big drop for me, my previous PR was 5.9sec. Tonight was also the first time I have ever had 3 clean runs below 6 sec (previously I might have one of three < 6). I ordered a Grip Force Adapter and installed it today. All week long I have been focusing on press outs in my dry practice sessions. I am sure the focus on the press outs helped some but the Grip Force Adapter really seemed to improve the speed of the first shot. I also shot Press Six at 4yds as part of tonights session 57/60 (3 misses made the time cut on all of them, another first).

[ToddG]

Last Saturday, a number of your humble Staff found themselves together on the range and ran the FAST for your amusement. Per Prdator's recommendation, we're listing total of all three runs instead of just the best... much to all of our disappointment. :cool:

ToddG
Cumulative: 16.12

4.51 C: 1.51,.49/1.89/.21,.22,.19
5.00 -1H: 1.77,.51/2.06/.23,.22,.21
4.61 C: 1.69,.46/1.84/.20,.21,.21


GermanSynergy
Cumulative: 18.69

5.47 C: 1.81,.40/2.29/.29,.43,.25
5.46 -1 H: 1.99,.51/2.25/.25,.25,.21
5.76 C: 2.13,.47/2.49/.26,.21,.21

JV
Cumulative: 18.93

5.72 C: 1.80,.65/2.42/.42,.23,.20
5.69 C: 1.74,.65/2.65/.22,.22,.21
5.52 -1H: 1.88,.72/2.28/.22.23,.19


LilLebowski
Cumulative: 27.86

6.50 -1H: 2.53,.49/2.59/.31,.30,28
7.18 -1H: 2.29,.80/2.68/.47,.55,.39
6.18 -2H: 2.23,.72/2.26/.35,.32,.30

[JV_]

My reloads were horrible that night, it's embarrassing.

[Kyle Reese]

I need to get under 5 consistently....

[LittleLebowski]

I need to work on....everything. Public shamings work on me :D

[ToddG]

Lil'L all you really need to change is your visual patience. Add a fraction of a second to get those head hits and you're doing great.

[LittleLebowski]

Lil'L all you really need to change is your visual patience. Add a fraction of a second to get those head hits and you're doing great.

I blame that on the coffee I had at the restaurant :D

[Kyle Reese]

I blame that on the coffee I had at the restaurant :D

I'm not the same man without my weekly fix of black Afghan tea. :D

[Prdator]

So Who ever had the Voodoo Doll of me, and uses it wile I'm running the FAST.. Please get rid of it.......... Shot the fast yesterday and had a 4.77 clean and the two other runs I could not get done due to bad primers in my hand loads ( Working with WW on that) and the fact that I'd missed one of my head hits did nothing to inspire me. So thought I'd try it agin today, First run 5.20 clean, Second run first two head heads and the next round would not chamber, ( sigh) Set it up agin, first round was a hit and the next would not go off... agin, first two rounds a hit and the next round would not go off... agin, just before the buzzer goes off my phone rings... ( scared the poo out of me) buzzer goes off and I pull one head hit at 4.96, last run, first two head hits fast ( 1.84 for both) and the next round was a dud.. agin,, first two round good hits, last round was a dud... so yet once agin and I had a 4.86 -1 head... ARGH>>>>> Im so calling Winchester about this lot of primers...

So Seriously get rid of the Voodoo doll........

[markp]

Well after totally tanking the last FAST drill at Albuquerque AFHF (missed everthing!), I got a chance for a solo practice this morning.
G19 with Looper holster and BMC.
Untucked t shirt concealment.
range = 7yds.

Practice consisted :
10 rds of 1 head-shot (3x5) from concealement.
20 rds of 2 rds each - heads only.
Reload drills ; 1 head from press-out/reload/2 body.
From draw,concealment:1 head/reload/2 body.

FAST One:
RAW: 1.80/0.46/2.20rld/.21/.19/.20 = 5.06
plus 2 heads missed = 9.06

FAST two:
RAW:1.83/.53/2.39rld/.22/.21/.20 = 5.37
plus 1 body = 6.37

the journey continues....

[ToddG]

markp -- First of all, a 6.37 is nothing to sneeze at.. especially if you can reach a point where that's something you can do on demand without warmup.

Second, as you can see, misses crush the score on this test. It is so much better to take an extra moment to verify your sights, and another extra moment to perform a proper trigger press, because even if that costs you half a second on the drill it reaps huge rewards with a clean run.

I see that as a parallel with any other shooting-under-stress problem, too. At Southnarc's AMIS class early this year, during the final scenario I rushed a head shot by just a fraction of a second and found myself eye sprinting instead of guaranteeing a good hit. My shot glanced off the side of the bad guy's helmet and in real life most likely would have whizzed past his head instead of entering it. Pulling it together and doing what's necessary to get the shot is what it's all about...

[GJM]

My wife and I are signed up for an AFHF in Utah in early October. Since I understand you need to shoot at least one FASTest for concealment during the course, and I have been mostly open carrying, but not shooting, a 14 inch 870 or .375 H&H this summer in Alaska, with a G29 or Smith .44 for back-up, I figured I better get out on the range with a timer today and try a couple of these drills from concealment. I did three with an M&P 9 Pro with a FSS trigger, two with an HK45C LEM, one with an M&P 45 mid-size, and videoed them for diagnostic purposes. As an aside, I sure do have to work harder with the HK LEM trigger, and especially support hand only, although I really like that trigger in extreme cold like we at times get in the winter up here and for appendix carry.

Here is a link to one with the M&P Pro, that was clean and within .20 of the other two I shot with that pistol. Suggestions for improvement are appreciated. I will upload one from the HK and M&P 45 when I get a minute, but not much surprise in that I shoot them slower than the 9. I made the range 8 yards, to make sure my long arms were not giving me an advantage, and if you look closely, you can still see some of our famous Alaskan bugs flying around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIHhAOYL8c4

[JDM]

6.71 Clean.
In an AFHF class.

[Kyle Reese]

6.71 Clean.
In an AFHF class.

Great work, especially in class where all eyes are on you.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

[JDM]

Thank you GS.

[Slavex]

Best run ever tonight. 7.24 -2h -1B. awesome.................... This was the second run at the test tonight, first one at the start of the night was 4.24 clean. Then end of the night this abomination. Shanked the first shot, was anticipating the reload and shanked the second even lower. Blew the reload as I already knew I was off for at least one of the 3x5 shots, and I should have just dumped the mag and gone for a new one, but I didn't and decided to fumble and mess about getting the mag in the gun, then just got lazy and fired 4 shots and allowed one to climb out of the circle. Rather frustrating end to a good class and previouly flawless demos for my students. sad sad sad.

[ToddG]

Slavex, of particular interest to you: After a lot of deliberation, I've settled on THREE SECONDS as the penalty for shooting the F.A.S.T. from open (no concealment, no retention).

[LittleLebowski]

6.81 clean last night with GS.

[JDM]

So to shoot expert from open/no retention, you have to shoot the drill in it's entirety in 2 seconds. Awesome. :p

[jetfire]

Slavex, of particular interest to you: After a lot of deliberation, I've settled on THREE SECONDS as the penalty for shooting the F.A.S.T. from open (no concealment, no retention).

Time to haul out my Open gun.

[Slavex]

hah, 3 seconds eh? well I don't ever see me successfully doing it then. I don't see a 2, reload 4 in under 2 seconds as being much doable for all but maybe Eric, Travis, JJ and the like, with an Open gun. And even then I wouldn't bet on them with the FAST targets as the challenge. But whatever, I throw a jacket on every now and then and do it that way too, with the holster on the belt and just a regular G-Code double mag pouch. But not very often that's for sure.

[Prdator]

Ran the FAST this am, Had a ( almost) coin wining run!!! the last round on the last run was a dud. ( bad Primer) but the front sight was well in the circle and I was at 4.44 so I had plenty of time.

So
4.90 -1 body,
4.96 clean
4.44-+ a .30 split for a total of 4.74. ( theoretical )
Total time 15.60

[GJM]

What would be great is to see some video to go along with these posts. I posted a link last week, but I think it got lost in the shuffle. Here is a FASTest I shot last week from concealment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIHhAOYL8c4

[ToddG]

Here is a FASTest I shot last week from concealment.

Hands have to start relaxed at your sides, not in front on the vest edge.

[GJM]

Thanks, I missed that part when I read the instructions. Other suggestions for improvement?

[Slavex]

Here you go, no you can't see me, and no I wasn't wearing concealment gear either. This was done just to get a video of The Monkey. I don't even remember the time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fj5u0RYBF0

edited to add this better video shot from the other side.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BY1VbLAPMY&feature=channel_video_title

[ToddG]

Set a personal (legal) best this week, shooting the G17 gen4 test gun:

4.02 (clean): 1.36, .38 / 1.71 / .21, .17, .19


My total for the three runs -- which were at the end of the day, and definitely not shot cold -- was 14.28, even after a 2sec penalty for a head miss.

[Kyle Reese]

Set a personal (legal) best this week, shooting the G17 gen4 test gun:

4.02 (clean): 1.36, .38 / 1.71 / .21, .17, .19


My total for the three runs -- which were at the end of the day, and definitely not shot cold -- was 14.28, even after a 2sec penalty for a head miss.

Damn nice dude!

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

[Prdator]

Set a personal (legal) best this week, shooting the G17 gen4 test gun:

4.02 (clean): 1.36, .38 / 1.71 / .21, .17, .19


My total for the three runs -- which were at the end of the day, and definitely not shot cold -- was 14.28, even after a 2sec penalty for a head miss.

Awesome DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So what was your raw time on each run???

[ToddG]

So what was your raw time on each run???


4.24 (clean): 1.37, .47 / 1.79 / .21, .21, .19
4.02 (-1H): 1.25, .47 / 1.73 / .21, .18, .18
4.02 (clean): 1.36, .38 / 1.71 / .21, .17, .19


For comparison, the 4.08 I pulled with the P30 back in March'10:
4.08 (clean): 1.37, .35 / 1.76 / .20, .20, .20

edited to add: I think it's important to see these for what they are, personal bests and not everyday typical runs. The fact that my P30 "record" lasted as long as it did, and that it took more than six months of regular shooting with the Glock to surpass it, shows that things need to come together just right to push those kinds of numbers (for me at least).

[rsa-otc]

What would be interesting would be to see what your average runs were at the same point of each test, M&P9, H&K P30, H&K 45 and now the Glock.

I will acknowledge that this would only be valid for HA HA comparison purposes only as you are a better shooter today than you were at the start of this endeavor. Or at least I hope so :p.

[JV_]

ToddG - I thought you had a 3.92 (IIRC) at some point?

[ToddG]

JV -- I had a 3.9x once but it was at the end of a string of fifty FASTs in a row (i.e., cheating). The 4.02 above is my best "legit" run, meaning only three tries per day.

[MangPol]

my first time to run FAST with a S.A. 1911 cal .45
closed front concealment
time: 1st run - 7+sec; 2nd run - 6+sec

1st run (clean)

http://youtu.be/7ZJ8kab8BnQ

2nd run (clean)

http://youtu.be/_dWe2MuLfs4

please wait 2 seconds for an uncompressed image, or press Ctrl+F5 for original quality page

[Sean O]

I don't post much, I find reading much more beneficial. However, this I felt the need to share. I shot three F.A.S.T. drills on 10/2/11 cold, with an un-tucked polo and a g19 AIWB. My results where:

Run 1: 5.30 (clean)
Run 2: 5.30 (-1 b)
Run 3: 4.62 (clean)

The week before I was able to achieve a 4.82 clean, but I am so used to being in the low 5's I felt like it was a fluke. I am not posting to brag, but to say thank you. Thank you to Todd, TC and so many others that have influenced my shooting in such a positive manner. I realize that there is still a lot to learn, and will continue to absorb everything I can.

Enough typing, back to reading. See you in class.

[Prdator]

Nice run man!!!! I would really study why you can go from 5.30 to 4.65 I know that's not much time and it's really hard to see wile your doing the test. If you can get someone to video you and really study the video. I have done that and continue to get good feed back from it.

[Prdator]

Had a coin winning run last Sun, It was slow but still under 5. had done the DotW ( Dot Torture) just before these two runs. ( Gen 4 G34, Keepers Kydex AIWB and Ameriglo Pro Operator NS)

Screwd up the reload on the second run, I had shot the Thousand round match the day before with out the GFA on and just put it back on.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/th_IMG_0400.jpg (http://s976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/?action=view&current=IMG_0400.mp4)

Last run had a bad grip on the gun going out so fist shot was way slow.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/th_IMG_0401.jpg (http://s976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/?action=view&current=IMG_0401.mp4)

[Lon]

For the last three days I've been running a training session for the department. We worked on fundamentals and I threw in a FAST (with a twist) at the end. We started with a modified Dot Torture at 3 yards, then moved back to five and shot 3x5 boxes, then moved back to 7and shot some more 3x5 boxes. Reloads were added to some of the drills. After that, I stapled up the FAST targets and explained the drill. Prior to shooting the FaST, each officer had to carry or drag a 6 foot section of railroad tie to the back of the bay and back to the 7 yard line to get some physical exertion in the mix. One they got to the 7y line, they shot the FAST. They did this three times. This was all done with duty gear and body armor on. Department wide we had some sub 8 second runs, quite a few sub 10 second runs and lots of 10-15 second runs. I think most people could have shot faster, but they were overly cautious since it was their first exposure to the FAST. Got ALOT of good feedback and I'm sure we wil be doing more of this.

My best run was a 6.84 with a miss to the 3x5 for a 8.84. After the session was over a couple guys wanted to shoot the FAST again without the RR tie. I joined them and shot a 5.84 clean.

[ToddG]

Very cool, Xpd54. I admit, I love hearing about departments and units that have adopted (or adapted) the FAST into their curriculum somehow!

[Lon]

Very cool, Xpd54. I admit, I love hearing about departments and units that have adopted (or adapted) the FAST into their curriculum somehow!

It's a great drill. It may become part of our SWAT PT qual course. Our head Firearms Inst. was running our obstacle course in his SWAT gear today and then ending it by shooting the FAST. We are currently revamping our PT course to include the obstacle course and some shooting. It wouldn't surprise me if he wants to include it in the qual. We will see.

[Mr_White]

Had a coin winning run last Sun, It was slow but still under 5. had done the DotW ( Dot Torture) just before these two runs. ( Gen 4 G34, Keepers Kydex AIWB and Ameriglo Pro Operator NS)

Screwd up the reload on the second run, I had shot the Thousand round match the day before with out the GFA on and just put it back on.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/th_IMG_0400.jpg (http://s976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/?action=view&current=IMG_0400.mp4)

Last run had a bad grip on the gun going out so fist shot was way slow.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/th_IMG_0401.jpg (http://s976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/?action=view&current=IMG_0401.mp4)

Prdator, I'm not sure what your split time was on the 3x5 shots, but it sure sounded quick. Nice hits and nice runs overall!

[Mr_White]

Since I was at the range recording Bill Drills on video yesterday, I started out with a set of three legit FAST runs and recorded them too.

1.27/.41/1.83/.24/.24/.20 = 4.19 clean
1.41/.47/2.41/.22/.22/.20 = 6.93 total, 4.93 raw time, -1 3x5 hit (the one in the video just above the 3x5 that looks like it clipped the card was actually about a half millimeter out)
1.47/.45/2.05/.23/.21/.20 = 4.61 clean

The video:


http://youtu.be/eoyh4eS26rw

[JHC]

Very nice runs.

How much time does the AIWB save vs IWB for the majority do we suppose? Albeit Sevigny's sub 4's are hip IWB, it seems that the AIWB still involves less distance for the hands to reach the pistol which are typically starting from around the front pants pocket areas. A tenth or two?

[LittleLebowski]

Very nice runs.

How much time does the AIWB save vs IWB for the majority do we suppose? Albeit Sevigny's sub 4's are hip IWB, it seems that the AIWB still involves less distance for the hands to reach the pistol which are typically starting from around the front pants pocket areas. A tenth or two?

Keep in mind that Dave did use one of those silly "concealment" vests. NOT that I am trying to imply Dave wouldn't have turned in a record run regardless. Just another data point.

[ToddG]

The speed benefit of the aiwb draw is less than the extra time it takes to do a good reload from a closed front garment. Open front garment (or a fast retention holster with no cover garment) would be the way to go to maximize the FAST. Luckily, most people are more concerned with how they can shoot it with their actual carry gear than with dedicated competition/coin-winning gear.

[JConn]

Coin winning gear..... new market!

[JHC]

Keep in mind that Dave did use one of those silly "concealment" vests. NOT that I am trying to imply Dave wouldn't have turned in a record run regardless. Just another data point.

True. My son refers to that as "sport concealment". :D

[DocHolliday01]

I got a chance to run the FAST a couple days ago. I ran about 8 runs total. My first clean run was a 7.2x, next clean runs were 6.90 and 6.2x. Runs were with sub par mag changes. A couple of the runs we ran as fast as we could just to get an idea of just how fast Dave's run was. I finished the day with a 5.90 clean. After the first couple runs I realized I was taking to much time on my body shots to I sped it up a bit. This and actually getting a clean mag change are the two things I think made the most difference for me

Full duty gear
Glock 22 with Surefire x300 in a Safariland 6360(I think thats the right model number) level 2+ (hood + ALS)
Bladetech open top mag pouch at 11 oclock
Speer lawman 180gr fmj

[JV_]

I got a chance to run the FAST a couple days ago. I ran about 8 runs total.

8 in 1 day?


Shooting the F.A.S.T. more than three times in a day is cheating.

[fuse]

8 in 1 day?

We've all done it.

Freaking thing is addicting.

[JV_]

We've all done it. I haven't. And to be honest, I don't shoot it all that much, but I'm going to fix that. With my new training routine, I'm going to integrate it in to every range session, I want to track more data.

IME: The best way to get better at the FAST is to break it down in to pieces. Improve your index card splits, draw times, Bill drills, and work on your reload. As each of those pieces improves, and you work on repeatability and consistency, your FAST time will improve.

[ToddG]

Shooting the F.A.S.T. more than three times in a day, to me, is cheating. Like any other standard, if you drill it over and over again you'll get better at it but won't actually get better at the underlying skills. I also find that the folks who "practice" the F.A.S.T. are the ones who have the greatest discrepancy between their by-myself-on-the-range score and their in-front-of-Todd-in-class score.

Have I done it? Yes. But I've already got my coin and have publicly stated that even if I somehow pulled off a better time than Dave Sevigny I wouldn't count it toward the world record... because I've been cheating. I've used it as a way to gather data comparing guns.

The only legitimate exception to the 3-a-day rule is if your first three runs are all clean and under five seconds. Then you're supposed to keep going until you have one that isn't.

Normally, I try to begin my practice session with one F.A.S.T. and end it with two others (something I actually stole from caleb).

[JConn]

I haven't. And to be honest, I don't shoot it all that much, but I'm going to fix that. With my new training routine, I'm going to integrate it in to every range session, I want to track more data.

IME: The best way to get better at the FAST is to break it down in to pieces. Improve your index card splits, draw times, Bill drills, and work on your reload. As each of those pieces improves, and you work on repeatability and consistency, your FAST time will improve.

I think as long as its diagnostic it's not cheating. I'm thinking about starting each of my weekly practice sessions with 3 cold runs and recording detailed data. I think this data plotted out would give me a fairly good picture on if my training routine is effective. Are there other ways to do this? Yes. Better ways? Maybe. This would also give me an idea as to what my real world cold abilities would be in an ideal situation. (I know any situation where I would have to use my weapon is not an ideal situation, but again, this is the best I can do.)

In my field (music) I have found that as much as I practice the individual techniques of a piece, the only way to become really good at playing that piece is to...play that piece over and over and over again until it's perfect every time. Now, with the fast test, this is cheating, and the test is a diagnostic not a piece. If the goal of practice is to simply be able to shoot a fast really well, then well, see above. However if the goal is to be a great shooter, the test is a useful tool, as Todd and JV have stated.

[fuse]

oh, I fully agree of all the above points.

I was admitting past sin. I am human. Like I said, I find the FAST to be addicting. I bet even the heroin addict probably knows its very bad, but he always shoots up anyway.

I believe I probably have an addictive and somewhat obsessive personality. Being a performer for a living, I'm accustomed to rehearsing and practicing things until they are as close to perfect as can be. There are actually "standards" "tests" in music, and how well one can perform these pieces will determine whether or not one gets to have a job, or keep the job one already has. No one would ever say its 'cheating' to practice one of these pieces over and over endlessly, for hours a day. In fact, thats what we all do.

So, I have seen very many similarities between shooting at a very high level and playing music at a very high level in the very short time I've been shooting seriously, but this is definitely not one of them, again for all the reasons in the above posts. A shooting test and music 'test' indeed serve completely different purposes. One being a measure of skill at a given moment in time, the other being the finished, polished, perfected final product one is presenting to a paying audience. Totally different, and must be approached as such.

For what its worth I haven't excessively practiced the FAST in quite a while. I sadly have relapsed once or twice after I knew I wasn't supposed run it more than 3 times.

Just last night, I was anxious to reproduce my clean 5.92 run from the Veteran's Day clinic. Cold, I shot 6.32 - 1 body (7.32) and 6.50 clean. About what I can expect these days. I so wanted to keep going, but knew it wouldn't help anything in the long run other than my ego.

So I put the crack pipe down. There's hope for me yet.

[Mr_White]

So I put the crack pipe down. There's hope for me yet.

I once wrote a short story told from the first person perspective of a crack pipe. (Yes, I was completely guessing as to the nature of that perspective.)

In the story, the crack pipe was very sad when its owner wanted to discard it. But there was no hope for the owner of the crack pipe, who got jacked and killed, and the jacker took the crack pipe for his own, so the crack pipe was happy again.

Beware.

[fuse]

I think as long as its diagnostic it's not cheating. I'm thinking about starting each of my weekly practice sessions with 3 cold runs and recording detailed data. I think this data plotted out would give me a fairly good picture on if my training routine is effective. Are there other ways to do this? Yes. Better ways? Maybe. This would also give me an idea as to what my real world cold abilities would be in an ideal situation. (I know any situation where I would have to use my weapon is not an ideal situation, but again, this is the best I can do.)

In my field (music) I have found that as much as I practice the individual techniques of a piece, the only way to become really good at playing that piece is to...play that piece over and over and over again until it's perfect every time. Now, with the fast test, this is cheating, and the test is a diagnostic not a piece. If the goal of practice is to simply be able to shoot a fast really well, then well, see above. However if the goal is to be a great shooter, the test is a useful tool, as Todd and JV have stated.

holy shit, we wrote almost the same thing at the same time. this is freaking me out.

[DocHolliday01]

8 in 1 day?

I should have stated before, I knew that you could only shoot the FAST 3 times in one session in order to be legitimate. I didn't post my results so much for the times, just more to share my first time trying it.

[turbolag23]

tried the FAST drill for the first time tonight. g19c concealed from a shaggy with BMC. third time i shot a clean sub 7sec run

[EricP]

I had a personal best today of 6.62 (2.30, 0.95 / 2.57, 0.27, 0.24, 0.29). Admittedly, this was after a 3x5 Speed Push and a similar format 1-Reload-2, but I was happy that I put all the pieces together.

[jetfire]

Normally, I try to begin my practice session with one F.A.S.T. and end it with two others (something I actually stole from caleb).

I need to start doing that again, I've been running three straight "cold ones" up front and I've not been seeing the same level of performance gains as I used to. But that could also be because I'm starting to plateau.

Speaking of the FAST, here's a procedural question for Todd - I had a USPSA shooter email me this the other day and ask if it was legal to run the FAST using a Limited gun/holster/pouches as long as his garment concealed all his silly cheater gamer gear. I said "I don't know."

[ToddG]

Speaking of the FAST, here's a procedural question for Todd - I had a USPSA shooter email me this the other day and ask if it was legal to run the FAST using a Limited gun/holster/pouches as long as his garment concealed all his silly cheater gamer gear. I said "I don't know."

As long as it's really concealed, yes. I'm defining that as the ability to stand with your arms stretched out to the sides and no gear is visible.

[JConn]

I had a landmark day with the fast yesterday. I have not been shooting it more than maybe a couple months. The last few times at the range I have started with three cold runs. Yesterdays cold runs had two firsts. The first two were done using the target system at nra. The first one was my first clean sub seven run. The second one was sub seven minus 1 head shot. The third was a 5.77 clean, fuse came over with the shot timer.

1.94
.36
2.62
.29
.30
.26

So yeah, my reload sucks and if it didn't it might be even closer to sub 5.

Edit: gen 3 Glock 19. Strong side raven concealment holster, untucked polo.

[JodyH]

Got around to running the FAST for the first time in several months.
P30, Archangel, T-shirt.
Has three straight low 6 sec. clean runs, with reloads in the 2.8 sec range.
My reloads have gone to crap since I broke my left elbow.
The good new is I know I can easily shave a full second off of them with some diligent practice now that I'm healed up.
Other than the slow reloads the rest of my runs were on track with no drama.

[guymontag]

Data collected to establish a baseline.

F.A.S.T
3.38,.79,4.98,.47,.46,.39= 10.47
2.67,.69,2.26,.91,.49,.36= 7.38(-1B)= 8.38
3.24,1.11,2.83,.43,.41,.36= 8.38
2.61,.78,2.70,.43,.37,.34= 7.23
3.38,.69,2.44,.50,.32,.39= 7.72
AVG = 8.44

Notes:
I feel it necessary to assuage my ego.
Under the concealment of a light jacket, I shot the F.A.S.T as cold as I could ever shoot it: half an hour upon waking, no caffeine/food, first time F.A.S.T test, first drill of the day, new shot timer, and actually cold due to 40 degree weather. I admit a sense of diminished focus/awareness and I think it appeared in the inconsistencies. However I'm content with the baseline.

Thanks ToddG for creating the F.A.S.T. :cool:

[jetfire]

As long as it's really concealed, yes. I'm defining that as the ability to stand with your arms stretched out to the sides and no gear is visible.

Same as IDPA concealment then; cool.

[JDM]

Shot my Personal best today, a full one+ second faster than my previous best.

5.64 clean.

M&P 9f
CCC Shaggy
Desbiens RCMP
Zipped up jacket.

:)

[JV_]

Shot my Personal best today, a full one+ second faster than my previous best. Very nice! From where did you shave off that 1s?

[JDM]

I wish I could answer that question with any certainty, but I can't.

I did notice that I was seeing my front sight very well today, which helped me a bit.

Honestly, Ive been practicing a good amount more of late, and it seemed to click today, and that run was the result.

Until I find myself shooting sub 6 runs regularly, I'm not going to get too excited, but it felt real good putting that one down.

[ToddG]

My reloads have gone to crap since I broke my left elbow.
The good new is I know I can easily shave a full second off of them with some diligent practice now that I'm healed up.

Just some personal advice, bro, but I'd take this opportunity to retrain the technique away from the muzzle-straight-up position you'd been using during your reload. It was easily costing you 0.25-0.50 every time.


Data collected to establish a baseline.

F.A.S.T
3.38,.79,4.98,.47,.46,.39= 10.47
2.67,.69,2.26,.91,.49,.36= 7.38(-1B)= 8.38
3.24,1.11,2.83,.43,.41,.36= 8.38
2.61,.78,2.70,.43,.37,.34= 7.23
3.38,.69,2.44,.50,.32,.39= 7.72
AVG = 8.44


That's precisely why we say more than three in a day is cheating. Once you've done a few it hits a rhythm and it's no longer really giving you an "honest" score. FWIW, I'd use 8.38 as my baseline. That was your best of three cold.


The first two were done using the target system at nra.

That's how SLG and I used to run it all the time. Much like the two most recent DotWs, having a finite amount of time before the drill ends -- whether you're done or not -- definitely helps ramp up the speed.

Congrats on the personal best!


Same as IDPA concealment then; cool.

So you convinced IDPA HQ to allow aiwb? Hallelujah! I'll post that on my blog right now! :p


Shot my Personal best today, a full one+ second faster than my previous best.

Congrats!

[jetfire]

Sadly, no. But it has been suggested.

[theblacknight]

Tiger teams, mount up!!

[JodyH]

Just some personal advice, bro, but I'd take this opportunity to retrain the technique away from the muzzle-straight-up position you'd been using during your reload. It was easily costing you 0.25-0.50 every time.
Now you did it.
You tripped the light switch in my head.
During class you kept trying to get me to get a solid elbow index, but I never caught the too high muzzle issue.
When I'd elbow index with my muzzle direction it felt cramped.
When you specifically pointed out how high my muzzle is the switch tripped and everything started clicking.
This afternoon, in just 30 repetitions I shaved off almost a full second by concentrating on keeping the gun closer to level and moving my magazine carrier back closer to 9:30.
I was easily, consistently beating a 2 sec. par time for dry reloads with a solid press out (no cheating the press out to beat the buzzer).
That's already a solid 1/4 second off my old reload times along with being much more consistent.
I can see where a few weeks of dry practice will get me a solid 1.8 reload.
Now I gotta show up to class in April... my OCD will not let me leave a coin up for grabs without having another try at it.

[guymontag]

That's precisely why we say more than three in a day is cheating. Once you've done a few it hits a rhythm and it's no longer really giving you an "honest" score. FWIW, I'd use 8.38 as my baseline. That was your best of three cold.

In my readings of your forum and blog, I remembered an assigned stop, though I did not recall the exact number. Your advice (definitely) followed: 8.38 baseline it is.

[Stuffbreaker]

Working the last two DotW boosted me to a FAST personal best of 5.13 (1.55 .48 2.16 .30 .33 .31). It came right after a clean 5.66 and was followed by a 4.79 (-1B 1.42 .41 2.07 .34 .28 .27). I botched the reload in the first string, but ran a new personal best in the last. Mag changes have been my achilles heel of late. Did cheat a bit with one mag of 3x5 Push to burn off the coffee flinches. 12 days since last FAST. P30LS V3 - CBST IWB - T shirt concealment.

[JodyH]

5.12
4.75
5.06

P30 9mm, Archangel, Fricke horizontal mag carrier, T-shirt.
The new reload technique is working.
These times were set with a brand new horizontal mag carrier that I only had 60 dry runs with prior to hitting the range today.
I should be able to easily shave another .25sec. and level these times out at a smooth 4.80
I love it when a plan comes together.

[JFK]

It is nice to see improvement.

I shot with BOM today and we started and stopped our session with this drill. I am finally breaking 7 seconds constantly and BOM was in the mid 5 sec.

[ef9turbo]

I've shot this test maybe 20 times in the past 2 years. I either forget to print out the targets or just forget about the test itself, usually the latter of the two. My best time clean so far was over a year ago, at a 4.6x and I usually average a 4.8x from duty gear. The last time I shot prior to this was at USSA's Pro Am on 12/11/11, so it's been almost a month since I've had trigger time.

I had a little free time before going off duty yesterday, so I went and shot this, and only got to do it once. It was shot from my duty rig, which consist of a Safariland 6004 SLS holster and Safariland 079 open top mag pouch. The weapon is a Glock 34, all stock internals and Sevigny Sights with tac light. I hadn't presented my weapon full speed from my duty holster in quite some time (I know, shame on me), so my support hand rode higher then usually, keeping the slide lock lever down, keeping the weapon from going into slide lock, forcing me to put the gun back into battery. Here are my times.

1.72
.5-----2.22
2.19---4.41
.33----4.74
.32----5.06
.32----5.38

I estimate I lost anywhere from .4-.6 from having to feed a round, as my reloads usually run 1.5x-1.7x. No excuses though, my own fault for not keeping up with non live fire practice :P Here is a vid. Oh, and I know, I forgot to put my eyes on.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l229/yinnhia/th_IMG_0644.jpg (http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l229/yinnhia/?action=view&current=IMG_0644.mp4)

[ToddG]

A note about reporting FAST times...

We were having a discussion in the Staff forum about different ways people report their scores. For consistency's sake, this is the proper way:

Total time including penalties for misses (misses): head shot, 3x5 split / reload / 8" split, 8" split, 8" split

e.g., if you shot it in 6.50 seconds and had one body miss, the report would be: "7.50 (-1B)" not "6.50 (-1B)."

[halodog]

Attended the Speed Kills & Get Some class in Indy in Sept. Shot FAST of 10.22 After some serious work on my press out and switching to a DeltaPoint optic on my G19 I shot 6.56 today. Consistently shooting 7.5 - 8.3. It was fun to break the 7 sec barrier. This drill is really improving my gun handling skills - thanks Todd!

[Prdator]

Ran the FAST three times the other day and had to run it on a par time as my phone( iPhone running the Surefire shot timer) would not pick up all the shots.
I set it for a 5 second par time and had the wife run the timer and keep track if I was done before or after the last buzzer. I was ahead of the 5 sec twice ( the two clean runs) and WAY ahead of it once and that was the -1 head run. ( phone said 4.28 but I do not know if that was right)
So two runs under 5 clean and one run of under 7(-1 head)

I was really amazed had how easy the test was running it on a par time........ TLG had told me to do this sometime ago but I just did not "get it" until I tried it!!!!! I'll defiantly do this more!!!!!! Now that is of course dependent on you skill level, but finding a good par time will teach you things about running this test.
Gun was Glock 35 gen4, running my mods and my Prototype AIWB holster and a closed front cover garment, UA shirt and fleece vest.
Here's a Pic of the target.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/IMG_0024-1.jpg

[Mr_White]

Ran the FAST three times the other day and had to run it on a par time as my phone( iPhone running the Surefire shot timer) would not pick up all the shots.
I set it for a 5 second par time and had the wife run the timer and keep track if I was done before or after the last buzzer. I was ahead of the 5 sec twice ( the two clean runs) and WAY ahead of it once and that was the -1 head run. ( phone said 4.28 but I do not know if that was right)
So two runs under 5 clean and one run of under 7(-1 head)

I was really amazed had how easy the test was running it on a par time........ TLG had told me to do this sometime ago but I just did not "get it" until I tried it!!!!! I'll defiantly do this more!!!!!! Now that is of course dependent on you skill level, but finding a good par time will teach you things about running this test.
Gun was Glock 35 gen4, running my mods and my Prototype AIWB holster and a closed front cover garment, UA shirt and fleece vest.


Awesome shooting Prdator!

[vandal]

Always looking for new drills & benchmarks, today I ran the FAST drill for the first time.

Glock 19, CCC Shaggy, prototype AIWB RC mag pouch, under a polo shirt. 5.7 clean

I ran it once with my 9mm PPS (a gun relatively new to me). The slide did not lock back (meat on the lever I guess) so it took a little longer. FIST K10 in appendix position, protytype AIWB RC mag pouch, under a polo shirt. 6.4 clean.

I know if I'm going to get under 5 that my reloads need a lot of work. Just getting to the spare mag under a polo shirt is essentially a second draw with the weak hand.

[Savage Hands]

http://youtu.be/ubqWMgxQt6k

[ToddG]

I'm unfamiliar with the "IDPA FAST" drill. :p

[Prdator]

Ive got Robert coming out to OK in July and Ill have him run this a time or two.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Spencer,

Make sure he shoots that early in the morning, cause in OK in July he will be a melting mess later in the day. That's going to be a very hot class!

[DonovanM]

Just got a Cane and Derby PIC holster in the mail today so I headed to the range to shoot from concealment a bit. Not only was today my first time ever running my G17 from concealment, but it was the first time I've done anything from concealment in the past 7 or 8 months, dry fire included. This was my second time running the FAST.

1st run: Fail. Missed 1/8" high on the 3x5 and saw my slide didn't lock back so just gave up at the reload.
2nd run: 4.90 clean 1.88 .58 1.84 ~.20 x3. Very conservative after missing on the 3x5 in the first run
3rd run: 4.73 -1 body. Thought my slide didn't lock back so I powerstroked it. Turns out I actually loaded more than 2 in the mag for the 3x5. Oops. 1.46 .48 2.23 ~.18 x3
4th run: 4.19 clean. Same times from the last string minus a faster reload, slide locked back.

Now that I have everything I need (other than a new mag pouch, was running some POS Blackhawk thing that I hate) I plan on shooting from concealment more often. Goals for the end of the year are a sub-4 FAST and sub-2 Bill Drills from concealment, both within the first 2 runs of the day. Should be doable, I can definitely take some time off the reload and get better splits on the 3x5 once I get used to shooting them.

Thank you to my RO, who should have no problem breaking 4.5 once he trades one German mistress for another. I won't tell your boss what you were doing if you don't :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aek6RAJHDVo

[jetfire]

Gosh, that range looks...very familiar.

I am hopping around on pins and needles until my new AIWB holster gets here and I can start carrying a fullsize gun again.

[Mr_White]

New personal best yesterday, continuing to observe the rescinded three-runs-a day rule.

3.70: 1.10, .35 / 1.59 / .24, .20, .22


http://youtu.be/rr69plOfmb0

[JodyH]

Wife and I hit the range this morning.

I haven't shot the FAST in several months.
After a quick warmup (6.52 clean, slide didn't lock back on empty) I ripped off a good one.
4.67 clean (1.83 for the two 3x5's, 2.09 reload).

The wife was rocking as well, both of her runs were under 10 seconds.
8.76 clean
9.95 (6.95, -1H, -1B)
She also did a great 3.74 Bill Drill.

[JV_]

3.70: 1.10, .35 / 1.59 / .24, .20, .22

Well done.

[Jason F]

New personal best yesterday, continuing to observe the rescinded three-runs-a day rule.

3.70: 1.10, .35 / 1.59 / .24, .20, .22

Outstanding!!

[ST911]

A clarification question on the FAST rules... Mods, please move if this is in the wrong place.

I use the following duty gear and shoot the FAST with it often. Safariland ALS 6390 w/ ALS Guard, Safariland slimline #79 mag pouch. What time penalty or allowance should be incurred with this combination of gear?

[JMS]

http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-fast


If shooter is using a retention holster and flap (covered) magazine pouches, subtract 0.5 seconds from the recorded time. If shooter is using an open-top retention holster (e.g., Blackhawk SERPA or Safariland ALS) with no concealment, add 0.50 seconds to the recorded time.

The mag pouch stuff is only specific to flapped, ICW SLS-or-similar holster for an allowance; the Slimline pouches net neither a penalty nor an allowance with your rig, the only difference they provide is orientation of rounds, which is a user's decision (or perhaps organizational SOP...?).

[ST911]

http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-fast

The mag pouch stuff is only specific to flapped, ICW SLS-or-similar holster for an allowance; the Slimline pouches net neither a penalty nor an allowance with your rig, the only difference they provide is orientation of rounds, which is a user's decision (or perhaps organizational SOP...?).

Okay, I think that makes sense. My OCD wants to get wrapped around this axle, so I'll just shut up, draw smoother, and shoot faster.

[GJM]

I don't make the FASTest rules, but as long as this is being discussed, I have always thought a .5 deduction for an ALS, but a 3 second deduction for open carry was illogical, since an ALS is darn near as fast as an open top holster? Especially since the FAST start position is hands at the side, the ALS becomes a gift compared to open carry.

[ST911]

I don't make the FASTest rules, but as long as this is being discussed, I have always thought a .5 deduction for an ALS, but a 3 second deduction for open carry was illogical, since an ALS is darn near as fast as an open top holster? Especially since the FAST start position is hands at the side, the ALS becomes a gift compared to open carry.

I went to an ALS duty holster from the SLS late last year. It is lightning fast, even with the ALS guard that renders it a level II. Some regular practice hitting the guard on the way in and throwing the tab on the way out renders it an open top, nearly retentionless holster.

[Dave J]

Nevermind...posted something while suffering from inadequate caffeine levels.

[rilumva]

What would the advanced etc, times be shot from 10meters (11-ish yards) due to range limiting me from shooting closer than 10m.

Thanks

[GJM]

Best guess is an additional .7 at 10 yards, with .5 for the first two to the 3x5, and .05 for each of the four to the eight inch circle. Shooting the 3x5 at 10 and 12 yards is a great way to make seven yards seem closer.

[rilumva]

Thanks, maybe Todd will clear it up some time later when he has the time.

[Mr_White]

What would the advanced etc, times be shot from 10meters (11-ish yards) due to range limiting me from shooting closer than 10m.

Thanks

Adjusting times would be one perfectly good way to do it. You could also do it on 'hard mode' and let your distance be 10 meters, keep the times the same, and strive to be that much better. :)

[ToddG]

I couldn't offer you specific times. It's like asking people for a 126m dash time. It's just not linear enough.

What I'd recommend is simply shoot it, record your score, and then work on the skills to get better for next time. While being able to compare your scores with others' is beneficial from an evaluative standpoint at the end of the day the only person you need to be better than is YOU.

[rilumva]

I couldn't offer you specific times. It's like asking people for a 126m dash time. It's just not linear enough.

What I'd recommend is simply shoot it, record your score, and then work on the skills to get better for next time. While being able to compare your scores with others' is beneficial from an evaluative standpoint at the end of the day the only person you need to be better than is YOU.

Understandable, thanks anyway. Will do as suggested (and as I've done till now), push myself harder for the same time limits

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The other thing you could do would be to increase the size of the target by about a third.

No doubt one of the people for whom the requisite math would take under 30 seconds could give you the exact dimensions. Otherwise you will have to wait for me to get sufficient time to work it out and that probably won't be until tomorrow.

But if the area is increased by about a third you should be in the ballpark.


Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[Mr_White]

The other thing you could do would be to increase the size of the target by about a third.

No doubt one of the people for whom the requisite math would take under 30 seconds could give you the exact dimensions. Otherwise you will have to wait for me to get sufficient time to work it out and that probably won't be until tomorrow.

But if the area is increased by about a third you should be in the ballpark.


Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

Good idea!

[Clusterfrack]

The other thing you could do would be to increase the size of the target by about a third.

No doubt one of the people for whom the requisite math would take under 30 seconds could give you the exact dimensions. Otherwise you will have to wait for me to get sufficient time to work it out and that probably won't be until tomorrow.

But if the area is increased by about a third you should be in the ballpark.


Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

To increase the area by 33%, multiply the each side by the square root of 1.33. That's about a 15% increase. For a 3 x 5 card with an area of 15 sq in, that increases to 20 sq in and ~3.5" x 5.75".

[Saym16]

newbie to this form but not to shooting

4.84 (clean): 1.68, .048 / 1.90 / .34, .24, .21

Shot # Elapsed Time Split Time
1 1.68 1.68
2 2.15 0.48
3 4.05 1.90
4 4.39 0.34
5 4.63 0.24
6 4.83 0.21
SureFire, LLC.
The World's Finest Illumination Tools®.

HK USP9 Expert / jet funnel - bladetech holster ( non- retention) , no cover garment.

[North Ga Hillbilly]

Shot the F.A.S.T three times today, got below 7 on all three goes after changing reload process, with one being a bit dirty (one miss on the index card)

6.53(-1H): 2.30, 0.59 / 2.75 / 0.35, 0.28, 0.26
6.90(Clean): 1.97, 0.82 / 3.11 / 0.38, 0.32, 0.30
6.46(Clean): 1.99, 0.74 / 2.82 / 0.34, 0.30, 0.27

G19, Shaggy AIWB with a thick wedge, locally made kydex mag pouch, t shirt and flannel as cover garment

[Corey]

I shoot the FAST about every other range session, sometimes less and have been keeping with the 3 runs per day. Just using it as a measure of performance and not a drill. Took my 3 runs at the start of my practice the other day and after a kittened up first run I made two good runs with a personal best.

10.43 (-2 H) 2.07 / .84 / 2.12 / .71 / .35 / .34 (I kinda gave up after the first two shots, both about 1/2" out of the box low)

5.74 clean 2.02 / .65 / 2.08 / .34 / .33 / .32

5.48 clean 1.97 / .56 / 2.00 / .33 / .32 / .30

My first clean run under 5.5 :cool:
Now to see how long it takes to do it again.

[JV_]

Nice work Corey. It looks like you could really reduce your overall times by working on the 3x5 shots. Specifically, I'd work on the draw to first shot and split.

[Corey]

Thanks, working the 20 hits drill a lot is what got me to this point, but I still have a long way to go.

[hossb7]

It's been a long time since this post.


My best (and only) was 6.33 clean. I don't remember the split times, though :p

The last time I shot this drill for score was in March of 2010 and I got 6.33 seconds, earning me an "Advanced" score and placing me on the Wall of Fame.

Back then I was using my Sig P226R in a Bladetech OWB holster (i think?) shooting 124gr Speer Lawman ammo. This time I'm using my M&P 9mm in an Atomic Dog OWB holster (it was cheap), and 115gr PMC.

This is the first time since that I've shot it with a timer.


5.53 seconds (clean): 1.89 / 0.61 / 2.12 / 0.34 / 0.30 / 0.27




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yypnCG6_hs

I know I can speed up on my draw (this was shot cold) and I can improve the reload speed but either regardless I'm pretty stoked.

The night before shooting I was thinking I really wanted to get sub-6 seconds on the drill. After I shot it and looked at the timer (in bright sunlight) and thought the last shot read 5.93 and I was pretty happy. It wasn't until I was in the car on the drive back when I saw it was actually 0.40/seconds faster! :cool:

[JV_]

Well done!

[hossb7]

Well done!

Thanks. My wife got me a shot timer for Christmas and I remembered what it was like to actually track your progress.

The last time I went out shooting I found I was getting 0.18 - 0.25 splits on Bill Drills so I knew I wanted to shoot the F.A.S.T. again. Without sounding cocky I think a sub-5 second time is in my future.

[JV_]

You just need to speed up everything - just a little bit. I would focus on the first 2 shots, there's a lot of time to be saved there.

For improving my first 2 shot times, I practiced a lot on index cards with decreasing par times.

[hossb7]

You just need to speed up everything - just a little bit. I would focus on the first 2 shots, there's a lot of time to be saved there.

For improving my first 2 shot times, I practiced a lot on index cards with decreasing par times.

That's a good suggestion.

[dugsok]

I am curious, do you suppose someone like Wild Bill Hickock drew his pistol and took time to get a site picture before he fired?

[JV_]

I am curious, do you suppose someone like Wild Bill Hickock drew his pistol and took time to get a site picture before he fired?

That's not on topic for this thread.

[Gio]

EDIT: Moved to drill of the week thread.