Another example of Open Carry gone awry

[HCM]

http://youtu.be/zx_YUO4SzcY

[JodyH]

Epic fail is epic.

[Kyle Reese]

Lousy situational awareness & a SERPA to boot?

[F-Trooper05]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm250/Sora120_photos/Simpsons/simpsons-1.jpg

[Tamara]

Lousy situational awareness...

I'll say. This appears to be nearly two years old. ;)

[WDW]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm250/Sora120_photos/Simpsons/simpsons-1.jpg

I love it. I can think of nothing more appropriate. People that open carry like that because they think they are cool are D-bags & you can't help but laugh when this happens. And of course there would be a Serpa involved in ths story, why not?

[derekb]

"It's a significant deterrent, open carry is..."

Oh.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Epic fail is epic.

Epicly...

[TCinVA]

Carry gun openly to scare off bad guys...then gets robbed of his pistol by bad guy...who needs the cooperation of the dude open carrying to complete the theft of the pistol.

There's no joke I can make that will result in that set of facts looking any more ridiculous than they already do.

[JDM]

Nik Clark needs to do fewer shrugs, and more stairmaster.

[tomrkba]

I'd like to point out you're sitting here bashing open carry as if someone carrying concealed couldn't have their gun stolen by an armed robber.

You all need to remind yourselves that a gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil and that it's impossible to maintain awareness all the time while out and about.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd like to point out you're sitting here bashing open carry as if someone carrying concealed couldn't have their gun stolen by an armed robber.

You all need to remind yourselves that a gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil and that it's impossible to maintain awareness all the time while out and about.

We are discussing the fact that a readily visible weapon made theft easy. Do you see the correlation between that and OC?

[F-Trooper05]

We are discussing the fact that a readily visible weapon made theft easy. Do you see the correlation between that and OC?

Not to mention the fact that open carry advocates are constantly blabbering on about what a great "crime deterrent" it is.

[SecondsCount]

This is an old video and if I remember correctly this was the second time the open carrier was robbed.

The first time was at knife point and that is why he decided to carry the gun. Unfortunately the only legal way he could carry the gun at that time was unconcealed due to the Wisconsin laws at that time. He also bought too much into the idea that if you carry a gun then the bad guys will leave you alone.

[TGS]

You all need to remind yourselves that a gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil and that it's impossible to maintain awareness all the time while out and about.

I think you just named the reasons why many members here think OC in the 'burbs or city is a less than optimal situation....

[Tamara]

{Devil's Advocate}Obviously LEO's should start carrying concealed to halt the plague of cops getting stuck up* for their heaters.{/Devil's Advocate}


*And I don't mean cops losing their guns in scuffles while they're trying to hook up a known goblin, but where they're actually followed and mugged for their gun. Because all the hip and happenin' tactical dudes on the internet have told me that if anyone so much as catches a glimpse of my gat, they'll track me and jack me for it the way they do with Ponch and Jon every day...

[JodyH]

{Devils Prosecutor} I've looked at a few cops and thought to myself "I could easily take him/her down and out".
Every open carrier I've come across I've had those same thoughts about.{/Devils Prosecutor}

[Tamara]

{Devils Prosecutor} I've looked at a few cops and thought to myself "I could easily take him/her down and out".
Every open carrier I've come across I've had those same thoughts about.{/Devils Prosecutor}

That's obviously because cops have much better firearms training than civilians.

[BaiHu]

{Devils Prosecutor} I've looked at a few cops and thought to myself "I could easily take him/her down and out".
Every open carrier I've come across I've had those same thoughts about.{/Devils Prosecutor}

Great point and I have a similar story. My martial arts instructor and I were out in Yellowstone Park about 5 years back and we were waiting for the rest of our crew to meet us after they checked out the trinket shop area.

I'm standing at the top of the stairs opposite my instructor and each of us is leaning our backs against our respective rails chatting.

A 5'2" female armored car personnel is making the midday rounds to all of the ATMs etc and she walks right between us w/o a care in the world-bag o' cash/coin in her weak hand and OC under her strong arm.

As soon as she passes b/w us, my instructor and eye just nod our heads. She was a goner if we were the sort. I would have had her gun and he would have had the money in 3 seconds flat.

All she had to say, IMO, before she got to the bottom step was say, "Excuse me sirs, could you step off the top of the stairs please, I need to get by." Our reaction would have given her a lot of information.

[JDM]

Directed at no one in particular.


We all know how, and where this thread can go. Please don't let it go there.

Now back to your regularly scheduled OC thread...

[Chuck Haggard]

That's obviously because cops have much better firearms training than civilians.


And likely far better weapon retention training, along with real gun belts and security holsters.

Even so, 5-20% of cops feloniously killed every year are killed with their own guns.


I only OC every day at work because they kind of expect uniformed officers to do so, not because I want to, or think it's a good idea.

[Tamara]

And likely far better weapon retention training, along with real gun belts and security holsters.

Even so, 5-20% of cops feloniously killed every year are killed with their own guns.

I'll note that this guy's retention holster worked so well that he had to get the gun out for the bad guy, who couldn't operate the SERPA. (If you want to see training fail, picture this guy just standing there while the goblin is fiddling with his holster...)

Look, I'm sorry. I never should have posted in this thread, because I know what it is. Somebody finds a two-year-old news story about some dude getting stuck up for his gun, and it gives us a chance to have a tribal bonding moment... "Stupid OCers!" "Yeah!" *fist bump* ...like it was some sort of common occurrence, rather than a man-bites-dog oddity.

So, yeah. Stupid OC'ers!

[JodyH]

Any story regarding OC or CCW (success or failure) is a man bites dog, there just aren't that many guns on the street on a daily basis.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Any story regarding OC or CCW (success or failure) is a man bites dog, there just aren't that many guns on the street on a daily basis.

This is true. It's easy for perceptions to get skewed when pretty much everybody in one's social circle totes on a regular basis. :o

[Zhurdan]

This is true. It's easy for perceptions to get skewed when pretty much everybody in one's social circle totes on a regular basis. :o

Forrest, meet trees.

I think this is why these topics get so hot so fast as well.

[HCM]

I posted this to increase awareness of the risks OC presents in a modern urban/suburban environment. My NRA Life member heart supports the 2nd Amendment principal of OC but there are just too many practical problems with it.

I've OC'ed at work, in uniform, for 8 of my 15 years as an LEO and for 4 years as an armored car guard and experienced some of those problems first hand.

There are many reasons you don't see cops getting mugged for their weapons. Retention holsters and weapons retention training help but I believe Awareness and Awareness training is another. Both situational awareness and awareness of being "in the spotlight" and the natural focus of attention when in uniform.

That leads into a more common issue for cops, being targeted for residential or vehicle burglaries to obtain firearms and body armor.

A more extreme "man bites dog" example of this from December 2010 can be found here: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-12-30/news/ct-met-officer-blake-killed-charges-20101230_1_weapons-cache-west-seipp-street-gun-collection

[HCM]

Great point and I have a similar story. My martial arts instructor and I were out in Yellowstone Park about 5 years back and we were waiting for the rest of our crew to meet us after they checked out the trinket shop area.

I'm standing at the top of the stairs opposite my instructor and each of us is leaning our backs against our respective rails chatting.

A 5'2" female armored car personnel is making the midday rounds to all of the ATMs etc and she walks right between us w/o a care in the world-bag o' cash/coin in her weak hand and OC under her strong arm.

As soon as she passes b/w us, my instructor and eye just nod our heads. She was a goner if we were the sort. I would have had her gun and he would have had the money in 3 seconds flat.

All she had to say, IMO, before she got to the bottom step was say, "Excuse me sirs, could you step off the top of the stairs please, I need to get by." Our reaction would have given her a lot of information.

Training for Armored car guards / ATM couriers is minimal to non existent. Usually the minimum required by the sate for armed security, if there is a state standard....

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll note that this guy's retention holster worked so well that he had to get the gun out for the bad guy, who couldn't operate the SERPA. (If you want to see training fail, picture this guy just standing there while the goblin is fiddling with his holster...)

Look, I'm sorry. I never should have posted in this thread, because I know what it is. Somebody finds a two-year-old news story about some dude getting stuck up for his gun, and it gives us a chance to have a tribal bonding moment... "Stupid OCers!" "Yeah!" *fist bump* ...like it was some sort of common occurrence, rather than a man-bites-dog oddity.

So, yeah. Stupid OC'ers!

Indeed. Bad guy target fixated would have been the time to make a move. Training fail, mindset fail.


Good guy is lucky bad guy didn't just reach out and rip Serpa off of his belt though, he really didn't need to operate the little button.

[Tamara]

Good guy is lucky bad guy didn't just reach out and rip Serpa off of his belt though, he really didn't need to operate the little button.

LOL!

Thankfully the bad guy didn't have an internet connection or he'd have known that. :D

[jetfire]

It's worth pointing out that the juice-head in the video isn't the guy who was robbed at gunpoint, so we don't actually know if the guy that was robbed had a SERPA holster.

[Tamara]

It's worth pointing out that the juice-head in the video isn't the guy who was robbed at gunpoint, so we don't actually know if the guy that was robbed had a SERPA holster.

You're treading on my dreams...

[BaiHu]

Training for Armored car guards / ATM couriers is minimal to non existent. Usually the minimum required by the sate for armed security, if there is a state standard....

I understand that and I find that to be a sad reflection of us slacking in the area of 'exceptionalism'. Perhaps a bit off topic (this is "Romper Room"), but I find it amazing in a country with such high unemployment, that we can't motivate and instruct people to a higher standard and/or we don't have enough motivated people to seek out jobs such as these.

[TGS]

I understand that and I find that to be a sad reflection of us slacking in the area of 'exceptionalism'. Perhaps a bit off topic (this is "Romper Room"), but I find it amazing in a country with such high unemployment, that we can't motivate and instruct people to a higher standard and/or we don't have enough motivated people to seek out jobs such as these.

The problem isn't with people being unwilling to train to a higher standard.

The fact is that most armored car robberies are deterred simply by an armed presence and the system itself (it's armored and can call for police). You usually don't need an experienced Xe/Triple Canopy/Dyncorps contractor to guard a Brinks truck for routine business, so why would the company pay for that capability and decrease their profit margin?

[Sparks2112]

I think a lot of the problem with oc for most folks is that most folks are incapable of making the mental jump between minding their own business to ok I need to shoot somebody. Same could be said for ccwer's too I guess. The fact the gun isn't visible just gives them more time to work themselves up to it. Just a thought.

[JeffJ]

Sure, nobody would be able to afford armored car service - and I'll add that as much as we like to pile on the OC guys -- This guy who got his gun stolen may have dettered dozens of potential robberies, there simply isn't any way to know. At the time his only option to carry was open and so he chose to carry instead of not carry - I agree with that. His stick-up sounds like a really bad problem where he would have to draw with somebody who's got the drop on him (I purposefully am not saying "draw against the drop" or "OODA" on basic principle:cool:) Sure there are ways to do that, and it's quite possible that more training would have been helpful - but, no matter how ninja you are - shit can still happen to you. I had a martial arts instructor that used to constantly remind us that every 12 year old girl on the planet was strong enough to knock you clean out if she got lucky and landed the punch.

[BaiHu]

The problem isn't with people being unwilling to train to a higher standard.

The fact is that most armored car robberies are deterred simply by an armed presence and the system itself (it's armored and can call for police). You usually don't need an experienced Xe/Triple Canopy/Dyncorps contractor to guard a Brinks truck for routine business, so why would the company pay for that capability and decrease their profit margin?

Yup, I was thinking that after I posted, but the cat was already out of the bag. I apparently have an unrealistic expectation that people would actually want to be responsible. You'd think I'd have given up hope after driving in New Jersey for 20 years.

Idealist signing off :o

[Kyle Reese]

I think a lot of the problem with oc for most folks is that most folks are incapable of making the mental jump between minding their own business to ok I need to shoot somebody. Same could be said for ccwer's too I guess. The fact the gun isn't visible just gives them more time to work themselves up to it. Just a thought.

Could you please clarify what you're saying?

[jmjames]

{Devils Prosecutor} I've looked at a few cops and thought to myself "I could easily take him/her down and out".
Every open carrier I've come across I've had those same thoughts about.{/Devils Prosecutor}

I've looked at police cruisers left running in a convenience store parking lot, unlocked, with the officer inside the store getting coffee and using the restroom, and a loaded 12 gauge in the front and an MP5 in the trunk the same way too. I would see it multiple times a night when I worked at that convenience shop. I always wondered when someone would just jump in the car, drive it a mile away, ditch the car and grab the guns. Trivially easy.

J.Ja

[Sparks2112]

Could you please clarify what you're saying?

Most people don't react violently enough quickly enough. When oc'ing this is even more important IMO.

[ToddG]

The fact that the guy got robbed is secondary.

The video points out a number of things. The victim was known around town as "the guy with the gun." There was a perception among the unarmed people who saw him regularly that he was carrying to look tough or be intimidating.

THAT is the message that gets sent. All the claims that OC is "educating the populace" is simply BS.

If you OC for some valid reason related to your own personal safety that you feel cannot be addressed by CCW, so be it. You and I would probably disagree (unless OC is legal and CCW is illegal in your jurisdiction) but you make your decisions and I'll make mine. If you OC to make a statement, however, watch the video again to understand exactly what message you're actually conveying.