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View Full Version : USPSA popper calibration rules suck.



olstyn
07-07-2018, 11:09 PM
On the last stage of a match today, I got screwed by a popper. We were painting after every shooter, so I know without question that the visible hits were mine. All 3 were within the calibration zone, and the popper didn't fall until the third hit. (Not a forward falling popper, so I was most definitely not "shooting it back up," and all the other steel I shot today fell on the first hit, even some hit below the calibration zone, so I'm confident my ammo was not the issue.) Apparently because I kept shooting until it fell, I couldn't call for calibration, and thus couldn't get a reshoot. I think that sucks. Can anybody give me a logical explanation of why this type of thing is not considered to be a range equipment malfunction?

Arguably, after having been hit by *any* shots, a popper is not in the same state it started in. Given that, I feel like if either the competitor's ammo has been chronoed and found to make 125+ PF (or no chrono is used at the match, and therefore all ammo has to be assumed to make declared PF), it would make the most sense in scenarios like mine today to recalibrate the steel in question and give the competitor a reshoot regardless of the calibration result.

All that said, I may be missing some important factor, and I'm definitely salty about it, so if somebody's got a good reason for why the rules are the way they are, I'm all ears.

Clusterfrack
07-08-2018, 12:25 AM
You got popperfucked. It sucks, but until the rules change it will keep happening.

The idea that poppers somehow test “power” of the ammo needs to be retired.

I’m with Ben Stoeger in hoping that USPSA will finally treat poppers like any other steel target. If you hit it in the scoring area with a full diameter hit and it doesn’t fall, it’s a malfunction and you get a reshoot. Why is this not obvious by now?

GuanoLoco
07-08-2018, 07:25 AM
The USPSA motto, popularized by Jeff Cooper, DVC stands for the latin “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” which translates to “accuracy, power, speed” – the basis of practical shooting.

Unfortunately Cooper didn’t forsee the 9mm winning the pistol caliber battles, and USPSA is too stubborn to change.

dVc

olstyn
07-08-2018, 08:03 AM
The USPSA motto, popularized by Jeff Cooper, DVC stands for the latin “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” which translates to “accuracy, power, speed” – the basis of practical shooting.

Unfortunately Cooper didn’t forsee the 9mm winning the pistol caliber battles, and USPSA is too stubborn to change.

dVc

Yeah, I know the motto. Clearly I should be shooting 230 gr .45 in Production instead of 124 gr 9mm, at least according to the late great Colonel. :p:rolleyes:

Zincwarrior
07-08-2018, 08:07 AM
You got popperfucked. It sucks, but until the rules change it will keep happening.

The idea that poppers somehow test “power” of the ammo needs to be retired.

I’m with Ben Stoeger in hoping that USPSA will finally treat poppers like any other steel target. If you hit it in the scoring area with a full diameter hit and it doesn’t fall, it’s a malfunction and you get a reshoot. Why is this not obvious by now?

Or count it as being hit.

olstyn
07-08-2018, 08:47 AM
Hah, just looked at the scores on Practiscore, and it appears that stage got thrown out for some reason. There was some controversy about what it was legal to do, start positions, etc, based on both the physical layout and the stage description, so I have a feeling that different squads may have evaluated it very differently. The design intent was clear, but the language of the stage description was not explicit enough, and the physical layout should have had 2 more fault lines than it did in order to make the description work within the rules.

spinmove_
07-08-2018, 10:48 AM
Or count it as being hit.

Honestly that’s my thinking. It’s just a different shaped piece of steel. You can OBVIOUSLY see where it was hit. As long as the hit was on the calibration circle, who gives a crap if it falls or not? The shooter did their job, the popper not doing it’s job is not the fault of the shooter.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Spartan1980
07-08-2018, 11:06 AM
Pretty easy to answer. Not meaning to be a dick here, but the popper fell and you got credit for the target. So what was supposed to happen?

What level match was this? Around my parts we don't paint steel at level 1 matches. Level 2 or 3 always get painted between shooters.

I do agree with you that it's definitely a flawed ruleset. Ben Stoeger's idea is much more realistic and would make matches run smoother too.

ranger
07-08-2018, 12:24 PM
When I was competing - we all got bit by a popper or other form of target/prop malfunction at some time or another. I never to shot to make a living but for fun - so I just accepted it was my day for a prop malfunction and went on.

bofe954
07-08-2018, 03:55 PM
Unless it's really windy I try and set poppers as light as they possibly can be without falling over. As your squad is resetting steel they should be checking to see that poppers are light and adjusting as needed. You can still get bit once in awhile by a popper with a mechanical issue, but there is no rule that a popper has to be set to remain standing at some power factor.

At majors the RO's may or may not object to the competitors adjusting poppers, but if you are resetting and a popper is not falling over to a finger tap I'd mention it them and see if they or you can adjust.

The way cables hang can cause a lot of activator issues.

A lot of popperf'ing is the result of your squadmates, not the rules or the RO's.

olstyn
07-08-2018, 04:27 PM
Pretty easy to answer. Not meaning to be a dick here, but the popper fell and you got credit for the target. So what was supposed to happen?

It was a level 1 match, but part of a "points series" leading up to the state section match, so people take it a bit more seriously than a "normal" level 1. I don't think you're being a dick at all, but from my view, since the popper didn't fall on the first good hit, my time on that stage was at least a second or two slower than it should have been, through no fault of my own. (I understand that the rules don't see it that way. Mostly I'm just salty about it and wanted to complain. :))

Bucky
07-08-2018, 08:03 PM
The USPSA motto, popularized by Jeff Cooper, DVC stands for the latin “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” which translates to “accuracy, power, speed” – the basis of practical shooting.

Unfortunately Cooper didn’t forsee the 9mm winning the pistol caliber battles, and USPSA is too stubborn to change.

dVc

Unless you up the power factor to 140, 9mm competition ammo is a bit off the 9 mm that is part of the “caliber battles”.

GuanoLoco
07-08-2018, 09:05 PM
Unless you up the power factor to 140, 9mm competition ammo is a bit off the 9 mm that is part of the “caliber battles”.

Meh. Most aren't running 125PF on the nose and the current USPSA / IPSC World champ is winning with factory ammo that I am pretty sure is > 138 PF.

The more I shoot the less I think small changes in PF are all that relevant.

From a different perspective, I suspect that even today's 165 PF "Major PF" is pretty anemic by Cooperian standards.

olstyn
07-08-2018, 09:06 PM
Unless you up the power factor to 140, 9mm competition ammo is a bit off the 9 mm that is part of the “caliber battles”.

9mm competition ammo is typically 130-135 PF. 140 isn't really much of a jump from there. In fact, it basically just means a slightly heavier bullet going the same speed. (A 135 gr bullet doing 1040 FPS is 140.4 PF, and a 125 gr bullet doing 1040 FPS is exactly 130 PF.)

GuanoLoco
07-08-2018, 09:16 PM
Unless it's really windy I try and set poppers as light as they possibly can be without falling over. As your squad is resetting steel they should be checking to see that poppers are light and adjusting as needed. You can still get bit once in awhile by a popper with a mechanical issue, but there is no rule that a popper has to be set to remain standing at some power factor.

At majors the RO's may or may not object to the competitors adjusting poppers, but if you are resetting and a popper is not falling over to a finger tap I'd mention it them and see if they or you can adjust.

The way cables hang can cause a lot of activator issues.

A lot of popperf'ing is the result of your squadmates, not the rules or the RO's.

Feel free to politely ask, but don't be surprised if they tell you no. In my limited experience, I've never seen an RO/CRO allow a competitor to adjust a popper at a major.

Bucky
07-09-2018, 05:20 AM
Meh. Most aren't running 125PF on the nose and the current USPSA / IPSC World champ is winning with factory ammo that I am pretty sure is > 138 PF.

The more I shoot the less I think small changes in PF are all that relevant.

From a different perspective, I suspect that even today's 165 PF "Major PF" is pretty anemic by Cooperian standards.

I shoot with someone who has a national USPSA tittle, and several IDPA titles, and he runs it close to the cuff, like 128.5. I personally feel a difference between 130 and 140 PF, all other things being equal. Then again, age and arthritis plays a role in that. I’m sure the Dwayne Johnson types wouldn’t notice. :)

I’ve been shooting USPSA for 26 years. I remember 175 power factor and no divisions. I still remember my chrono velocity at the 1997 Nationals, 1590! :D

olstyn
07-09-2018, 05:50 AM
I still remember my chrono velocity at the 1997 Nationals, 1590! :D

Wow, even assuming 115 grain bullets, that's nearly 183 PF. That must have been pretty sporty to shoot.

bofe954
07-09-2018, 07:07 AM
Feel free to politely ask, but don't be surprised if they tell you no. In my limited experience, I've never seen an RO/CRO allow a competitor to adjust a popper at a major.

I was on a squad at single stack nationals that had them switch a popper out, but it was after repeated failures. I don't think they should let a competitor adjust them at a major, but if you tell them it's heavy they should look. Really they should be checking on it themselves throughout the day.

Bucky
07-09-2018, 08:48 AM
Wow, even assuming 115 grain bullets, that's nearly 183 PF. That must have been pretty sporty to shoot.

Yes, 115 grain bullets out of a 9x21. I was closer to 180 power factor at home (major was 175 at the time). Different chrono, different altitude etc (not sure how that works, just that it has an effect).

That being said, although it made quite a crack, it shot really flat with a 7 port compensator.

jetfire
07-09-2018, 11:20 AM
I was on a squad at single stack nationals that had them switch a popper out, but it was after repeated failures. I don't think they should let a competitor adjust them at a major, but if you tell them it's heavy they should look. Really they should be checking on it themselves throughout the day.

That happened as well the and only time I ever shot SS Nats as well. Weird, right?

Bucky
07-09-2018, 03:29 PM
That happened as well the and only time I ever shot SS Nats as well. Weird, right?

Strange things happen at Nats, and different outcomes for different people too. One time at Nationals, a steel popper failed to fall. Looking at the popper, you could see the hinge pin had fallen out, of one side, and the popper was jammed into the ground. You would think range failure, right? Nope, popper was calibrated and I got the miss. I KNOW that would not have been the case were my last name Leatham or Jarrett.

olstyn
07-09-2018, 05:16 PM
One time at Nationals, a steel popper failed to fall. Looking at the popper, you could see the hinge pin had fallen out, of one side, and the popper was jammed into the ground. You would think range failure, right? Nope, popper was calibrated and I got the miss.

How did they justify that when it was visibly not put together properly/broken?

Bucky
07-09-2018, 05:30 PM
How did they justify that when it was visibly not put together properly/broken?

It was John Amidon, who was head of NROI at the time. He told me if I don’t like it, arbitrate it. Didn’t feel like putting up $100.

Dr. No
07-09-2018, 05:58 PM
On the last stage of a match today, I got screwed by a popper. We were painting after every shooter, so I know without question that the visible hits were mine. All 3 were within the calibration zone, and the popper didn't fall until the third hit. (Not a forward falling popper, so I was most definitely not "shooting it back up," and all the other steel I shot today fell on the first hit, even some hit below the calibration zone, so I'm confident my ammo was not the issue.) Apparently because I kept shooting until it fell, I couldn't call for calibration, and thus couldn't get a reshoot. I think that sucks. Can anybody give me a logical explanation of why this type of thing is not considered to be a range equipment malfunction?

Arguably, after having been hit by *any* shots, a popper is not in the same state it started in. Given that, I feel like if either the competitor's ammo has been chronoed and found to make 125+ PF (or no chrono is used at the match, and therefore all ammo has to be assumed to make declared PF), it would make the most sense in scenarios like mine today to recalibrate the steel in question and give the competitor a reshoot regardless of the calibration result.

All that said, I may be missing some important factor, and I'm definitely salty about it, so if somebody's got a good reason for why the rules are the way they are, I'm all ears.

As dumb as the rule may be, it's still the rule. When you shot it down you gave up your opportunity for a reshoot. That's one of those rules you learn through experience... Having been there before, if you called/saw a good hit you can take the chance... if you slow down and hit it again and it still doesn't go, you should stop shooting it and move on. At a local you can give "the look" to the RO and they should call the stop ... but just remember you can't stop yourself.

olstyn
07-09-2018, 06:00 PM
Yeah, I don't think I'd have gone for the arbitration either; wouldn't arbitration just have gone to him anyway? Seems like once he decided to screw you, you were screwed...

olstyn
07-09-2018, 06:07 PM
As dumb as the rule may be, it's still the rule. When you shot it down you gave up your opportunity for a reshoot. That's one of those rules you learn through experience.

Yeah, I guess I've just been lucky not to run into this specific scenario in ~6 years of shooting USPSA. Previously it could reasonably have been said that there were low and/or edge hits involved. Not so much this time. Just when you think you're done learning painful/stupid lessons, another one finds its way to you.

Dr. No
07-09-2018, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I guess I've just been lucky not to run into this specific scenario in ~6 years of shooting USPSA. Previously it could reasonably have been said that there were low and/or edge hits involved. Not so much this time. Just when you think you're done learning painful/stupid lessons, another one finds its way to you.

You're lucky. I've had it happen in majors before. Happens way more often at locals - often times we just go "yeah it was a good hit" and go on instead of a reshoot since we have so many people out and it's hot as hell.

I've found that knowing the rule book has really come in handy at several majors. I got a reshoot on a shit stage one time because the RO didn't start me in the correct position ... I've called for an overlay on shots that were "close" and gotten them a bunch. I successfully argued a mike into a D once because I shot a target at an extreme angle. If you overlayed the bullet hole straight on it was nowhere close, but from the angle I shot it, the overlay touched the line all day. That one went to the RM.

Either way, my rule always has been : "When we're playing for money, we play by the book".

jetfire
07-09-2018, 06:40 PM
You're lucky. I've had it happen in majors before. Happens way more often at locals - often times we just go "yeah it was a good hit" and go on instead of a reshoot since we have so many people out and it's hot as hell.

I've found that knowing the rule book has really come in handy at several majors. I got a reshoot on a shit stage one time because the RO didn't start me in the correct position ... I've called for an overlay on shots that were "close" and gotten them a bunch. I successfully argued a mike into a D once because I shot a target at an extreme angle. If you overlayed the bullet hole straight on it was nowhere close, but from the angle I shot it, the overlay touched the line all day. That one went to the RM.

Either way, my rule always has been : "When we're playing for money, we play by the book".

Some day we’ll have a shooting sport that isn’t run largely by unpaid volunteers who are also competitors.

olstyn
07-09-2018, 06:48 PM
Some day we’ll have a shooting sport that isn’t run largely by unpaid volunteers who are also competitors.

Sometimes you are one of the funniest guys on the planet, caleb. :)

Peally
07-09-2018, 07:33 PM
I'm just here to agree that the rules are fucked in that department. Had it happen to me, and I'll be pissed again when it happens again.

jetfire
07-10-2018, 09:28 AM
Sometimes you are one of the funniest guys on the planet, caleb. :)

A boy can dream, can’t he?