RFI 38-40 rifle info, Modern rifles/pistols

[gringop]

My maternal grandfather, Victor, had a Colt Peacemaker in 38-40 that has been passed down to my brother and I.

Recently, I have been loading trapdoor loads for my 45-70 (see future updates in the "Rifle shooting with my neighbor" thread) using "Trailboss" powder and I figured that it would be a good powder for my Grandfather's gun.

My grandfather was no gunslinger, he was a generous, church going, cotton farmer although he would kick all challengers at dominos. He mentioned that he used to tuck the gun into his belt when he paid the farm hands on Friday.

I'm anxious to work up some loads for my grandfather's gun using "Trailboss" but I would also like to find a modern lever action rifle to load for.

I see old, high priced Winchester rifles and modern reproductions guns from Turner and Pedersali for crazy high collector prices. Are there any modern manufacturers producing 38-40 rifle or pistols these days?

Malamute

[HCM]

Chiappa makes a 92 clone in 38-40

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/84/product/1892-L.A.-Carbine.php

[gringop]

Chiappa makes a 92 clone in 38-40

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/84/product/1892-L.A.-Carbine.php


Tis true, "MSRP: $ 1,235.00 "

"Sorry Victor, your, pistol is just too esoteric, gonna have to stick with the Win94 45LC. It kilt my first deer, even after falling off of my motorcycle on the way into the deer lease. (But now I have a 45-70, any Centex Elk leases?)

Seriously, any other info on 38-40 rifles is greatly appreciated .

Gringop

[Duelist]

Wife’s aunt inherited a .41 Colt SAA. At least they still make brass and ammo for the .38-40.

[Hambo]

Wife’s aunt inherited a .41 Colt SAA. At least they still make brass and ammo for the .38-40.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/41-Colt-Brass/

[Jim Watson]

Sorry, I don't know of a cheap .38-40. It was introduced by Winchester and offered by them, Marlin, Colt, and I think Remington, all name brands, all relatively expensive for their day and age; "collector's items" now. Reproductions of same are still rather high priced. People who want "popular priced" lever actions are buying .357, .44 Magnum (even .44 WCF) and .45 Colt. I recently saw a picture of a S&W Highway Patrolman that had been converted to .38-40 for a real enthusiast. Bet he paid the fare.

[farscott]

In the middle 1990s, Ruger made a run of .38-40/10mm dual-cylinder Blackhawks for a now-defunct distributor called Buckeye Sports of Canton, OH. That is the last modern .38-40 revolver I remember.

At the time, the guns did not sell even though CAS was popular. I bought my examples for $300 in the late 1990s. They are now collectible, partially due to the caliber offerings and partially due to the buckeye engraved on the top strap. The same company also had a run of .32-20/.32 H&R Magnum and .44-40/.44 Magnum Blackhawks made. The latter is the rarest.

[Duelist]

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/41-Colt-Brass/

Wow! If I do this, I’m going to have to warn them with stern words not to discard or let fall to the ground a single piece of that brass.

[Malamute]

I cant add much. There arent any cheap ways I know of to get a 38-40 rifle unless you just luck into a deal somehow. There have been some Italian Winchester copies besides the Rossi mentioned, none of the Italian guns are cheap, but generally fairly well made. A used Uberti 1866 or 1873 in 38-40 may turn up if you keep your eyes open, but you are still talking about real money. Id just get a load worked out, shoot the gun, and enjoy the family history of it.


I have no experience with trailboss powder, so cant offer any useful information about it. The cowboy action forums likely have usable info.

[gringop]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I guess my plan going forward is per Malamute's advice. We are going to shoot the pistol with some already acquired factory ammo to confirm function. If it works OK, 100 count of Starline brass and a Lee die set are around $60. We will gladly pay that to shoot Victor's gun again.

I'll keep an eye out for any bargains on 34-40 rifles (like I need another excuse to search the Internet for guns).

Note: Graffs and other retailers sell Starline brass in 100 count amounts so you don't need to buy 250 count brass directly from Starline. My press and my shoulder is quite happy with 100 rounds of 45-70 Starline brass.

Gringop

[fatdog]

A friend shoots an original Winchester '73 .38-40 at our NCOWS cowboy matches. He reloads with 2F black powder only. He has indicated to me that in reloading, the whole neck tension thing is something that requires a lot of attention to get right, just like .44-40. He lubes cases for resizing as you would expect for any bottleneck cartridge. The Starline cases have performed well for him.

[gringop]

38-40 status report:

My brother and I got Victor's Colt SAA out on Labor Day with some Black Hills 180gr ammo.

682 mean fps
60 spread fps
21 Standard Deviation

I'm sure I can beat that with some Trail Boss and careful experimentation.

It's got one chamber that's a little sticky, as in "hit the ejector with a plastic screwdriver handle" sticky. We may just make that chamber the "hammer down on empty" chamber.

Ordered brass, dies and bullets last night. Not finding any good deals on rifles, I do see this.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/cimarron-p-model-pre-war-frame-revolver-38-40-win-475-barrel-6-rounds-case-hardened-frame-walnut-stocks-blued-gmp685-844234105984.do?from=Search&cx=0

May have to go for the Cimarron. Gonna haunt the Internet and gun shows for a while to see what else is out there.

At 20 yards, these are our shots from a rest, mine are numbered and my brothers are on the plate with one below it. Friggin jerk, I mean, damn good shooting bro!

Gringop

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I'll be ready for SASS any day now.

29862

[mtnbkr]

38-40 status report:

My brother and I got Victor's Colt SAA out on Labor Day with some Black Hills 180gr ammo.

682 mean fps
60 spread fps
21 Standard Deviation

I'm sure I can beat that with some Trail Boss and careful experimentation.


That's just over half what it should be IMO.

Regarding Trailboss, there is a formula for determining charge loads for cartridges with no published data. IIRC, it's fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, then take 75% of that as your starting load. Look it up as I may be misremembering, but it's something along those lines. I use TB for a lot of handgun and rifle cartridges. Magical stuff...

An unconventional option for a rifle may be to get a Thompson Encore and have the likes of MGM make a custom barrel. Barrel if MGM can produce it entirely will be about $400. The Encore frame and stock will be $200-$350 depending on new/used and market price.

Chris

[Malamute]

I believe the old factory loads assumed suitable for all guns was a 180 gr jacketed flat nose soft point at 975 fps in a 7 1/2" barrel. So yes, it shouldnt be difficult to get better velocities even with common powders.

Does the sticky chamber show signs of pitting or roughness? You may be able to polish it a bit and alleviate that.

[okie john]

John and Dustin Linebaugu have started to build super-accurate, hot-loaded 38-40 revolvers. That in itself won’t help you, but keep an ear to the ground. There will probably be some chatter about how to maximize accuracy on some of the other forums.


Okie John

[Malamute]

I was kind of surprised when he showed me one of those. They sound pretty cool.

[Malamute]

I believe the old factory loads assumed suitable for all guns was a 180 gr jacketed flat nose soft point at 975 fps in a 7 1/2" barrel. So yes, it shouldnt be difficult to get better velocities even with common powders.

Does the sticky chamber show signs of pitting or roughness? You may be able to polish it a bit and alleviate that.

"better velocities" than those 600-something fps cowboy plinking loads. Those sound like something youd load for shooting in the basement without bothering people in the house too much. :)

[gringop]

"better velocities" than those 600-something fps cowboy plinking loads. Those sound like something youd load for shooting in the basement without bothering people in the house too much. :)

The Black Hills loads did not obdurate until the shoulder of the case, lots of smoke/carbon crap on the necks. We had 6 rounds of R-P ammo that were bought back in the 80s and were held in a presentation case for the pistol that my brother made. That ammo had a mean of 745 fps. The shoulder was more of a crimp at the base of the shoulder and expanded out to a slanted shoulder after firing. I guess that's one way of dealing with varying shoulder dimensions in different chambers in this caliber.

Not gonna push the velocity and pressures in this old Colt. The chambers look pretty good but the bore is like an inverted corn cob. Must have been some mercury based primers/non-religious cleaning in it's past. Understandable, I'm keeping up that tradition with my G-19s.

"Tack så mycket" (thank you very much) Victor, for this gun and so much more.

The new brass and dies are due on Friday, which I have taken off from work. Happy Happy, Joy Joy.

Gringop

[Malamute]

Im surprised the old factory loads were such low velocity. There would be some reduction expected in shorter barrels, but not quite mid 700s.

Curious how the handloading goes. Have you checked groove diameter? Many of the old ones seem to shoot pretty well despite rough bores. There is likely info for loading the 38-40 on the Castboolits forum. Another place would be the cascity forum. I looked recently and the site was down for upgrades. They have a lot of info on obscure old style guns and calibers. In any event, both black powder and some types of smokeless can provide very decent velocities without raising pressures. Some people have worked with pressure gauges and determined black powder pressure curves can be duplicated by some types of smokeless. Its common to simply say "smokeless has a different pressure curve, dont use it in old guns" and that wold not be entirely accurate. The effort to clean guns fired with black powder is widely exaggerated. If the cases seal, its basically hot tap water patches through the bore until clean, dry well with more patches until dry dry, and let set a few minutes, then oil. Its actually easier to remove than some smokeless and jacketed fouling. Keeping the internals well oiled alleviates any small amounts of fouling that may get inside. The oil keeps it from becoming a problem for the most part. Shooting black powder cartridges is a real hoot, it puts a big smile on many peoples faces. The modern alternative black powder substitutes are more corrosive and harder to clean by all accounts Ive seen. BTW, Swiss powder is the best quality and velocity, similar to what was actually used in cartridges when it was factory ammo.

Some of the older Colt chambers were reported to blow the base of the shoulder out pretty far and had to be worked a lot to get it back to factory ammo location. Not sure how to keep from working the brass much if its moving it very far, perhaps neck sizing some with a 40 s&w/10mm cal size die.

Please keep us informed how the loading journey progresses.

[BarryinIN]

I’ll have to dig out my notes, but I bought a Colt New Service in .38-40 a few years ago and did some loading for it. Ken Waters and Mike Venturino have done some articles for Handlider over the years. Waters did at least one on heavier than normal loads for rifles, but it’s getting pretty old now.

And yes, the shoulder location in the chamber of my Colt was farther forward than the factory ammo, brass, or die specs. Clearly visible on fired and unfired cases with the naked eye. I’m sure setting it back would shorten case life and make it harder to seal the chamber, so I short sized.

I cast, so mostly used the bullets from the RCBS 40-180CM mold...which, as is often the case, looks different than catalog drawings. Many .38-40 cast bullets out there don’t have a crimp groove, since they were designed to sit on a full case of BP so there was little chance of setback. The RCBS and SAECO 401 are exceptions. In theory, jacketed .40/10mm bullets can be used, but you run into the same thing- no canneluee to crimp into. Kind of a pain in a revolver once recoil gets to a certain point, or in a tube magazine rifle.

[gringop]

More reloading info when the correct 38-40 bullets, with crimping groove, get here from Acme Bullets. Will try to slug the barrel.

The Colt chamber shoulder is way forward of what Starline considers the shoulder.

Gringop

Some old Photos.

Victor and his wife Ellen, in front of their house, that I I live in today. A peaceful man, with a Colt pistol, for when it was needed. If only I can live up to his example.

30006

A young Gringop. To sleep, perchance to Dream...
30007

[gringop]

38-40 reloading update.

I loaded up 3 Trail Boss loads, low, medium and the max from Hogdons website . The max is none too MAX at 800 fps and 9,900 PSI.

*********************
38-40
Starting loads Max Loads
Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
Hodgdon Universal .401" 1.600" 6.9 813 8,200 PSI 7.5 955 11,900 PSI
Hodgdon HP-38 .401" 1.600" 5.8 747 9,400 PSI 6.8 934 13,500 PSI
Hodgdon Trail Boss .401" 1.600" 4.5 694 7,300 PSI 5.5 800 9,900 PSI
**********************
Here is what I got on the chrono,

load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 4.5gr Trail Boss 585 609 563 46 16
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.0gr Trail Boss 624 646 600 46 11
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.5gr Trail Boss 670 685 654 31 11

Note that none of these loads obdurated on the neck or the shoulder. They all bled some gas back behind the shoulder but none all the way to the base. Probably because the shoulder had to be blown forward to conform to the Colt chamber. These were all new Starline brass with the shoulder set as per factory specs and my Lee dies.

I will try some more Trail Boss at 5.5gr with the shoulder set correctly for these chambers but I don't hold out much hope for Trail Boss being worth a crap in this gun. It's great for Trapdoor level 45-70 loads that you can shoot all day but too wimpy for this 38-40.

I'll try some Universal and HP-38 with correctly formed shoulders next time.

Pic of the shoulder difference with the Colt chamber on the left and factory on the right.
30386

These are the bullets I'm using. ACME 180gr .401 diameter, with crimping groove.
30387

Here is the pistol, SN shows it's from 1914.
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Even after I cleaned the heck out of it, there is a good bit leading at the muzzle and the forcing cone. I used a Lewis Lead Remover and some Chore Boy wrapped around an old brush but I don't want to risk doing any damage to the bore just to try to get it pristine.
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A picture of the bore. I slugged it with one of these bullets. The lands are .396 and the grooves have to be more than .401, they did not mark the bullet.
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Here are the targets at 7 yds. I only had 10 rounds of the 5.5 loaded up so it's just 2 sets of 5 shots vs 15 rounds with the other 2. All 3 of these loads shoot 3-3.5 inches low at 7 yds, they were all so slow that I don't have much faith that I will find a faster HP-38 or a Universal load that will bring the POI up to POA.

Gringop
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30393
30394

[Malamute]

Where were you holding the sights? That would be about an inch low to me for a 6 oclock hold on the paper target, but not too bad overall.

It looks like pitting more than leading, but there may be leading. It still will likely shoot fairly well, the rifling is strong enough.

You may (or not) get better accuracy and less leading with either/both a slightly fatter bullet and a better lube. The commercial lubes seem to be more for clean handling then best lubricating properties.

Sounds like you are on the track of loads your gun will like. Keep us posted on how its going as you learn more.

Edit: you may be able to bump up a bullet to slug the bore with bu taking one of the ones you have, setting it on a solid surface like the anvil flat of your vise, and hitting it flat on the nose with a hammer. t doesnt have to be shooting perfect, just fat enough to get a true groove diameter reading of the barrel size.

[gringop]

Another week, another reloading for 38-40 update.

I adjusted the sizing die upward to size the brass closer to this Colt's long chambers. Unfortunately, this results in the neck not being sized down correctly. The bullets don't drop through into the brass but the only thing really holding them is the roll crimp. If I seat them to the correct depth for the crimp groove in the bullet, they are really loose. I seated them a little long so the crimp is on the the lead just behind the crimping groove.

On the 40 rounds fired today, I only saw one round that looked like the bullet jumped forward about a 1/32". All 40 rounds obdurated on the shoulder with just a little carbon on the neck. I may try to size a little more to see if it will size the neck down.

I tried the low and medium published loads for Hodgdon Universal and HP-38, of which I have a crapload laying around. HP-38 showed the best SD but Universal gave a tighter group and some what less unburned powder in the cases.


load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 6.9 Universal 660 728 628 100 33
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 7.3 Universal 693 760 652 108 32
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.7 HP-38 638 676 601 75 23
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 6.3 HP-38 669 695 648 47 14



This is Universal from 4 cases poured out after firing.
30628

This is HP-38 from 4 cases.
30629

I will try both powders at closer to the Max load to see if I can get a cleaner burn. and still have good groupings.

The medium load of 7.3 gr Universal gave the best 10 shot group so far from this gun. All the shots in this thread are from a rest (my hands on my shooting bag) with the sights on the X. The old Colt trigger is nowhere near match quality but I'm happy with this best group. At least it shows the improvement when the brass actually obdureates and is not getting blown forward 3/16".

Gringop

PS, None of the chambers were sticky at all today. Some shells dropped right out by gravity but none required anything more than a push with the ejector. My guess is that the prior issues were a result of carbon blowby and case shoulders being blown forward on top of the carbon.

3063030631
3063230633

[Jim Watson]

the sights on the X.

Which is why we see a lot of SAAs with the front sight filed down to correct. I doubt you will want to do that, though.

I have similar experience with inadequate resizing in .44-40.
I bought the titanium nitride coated sizing die from CH. Easy as a carbide die on a straight case. But it does not bring the neck down tight enough. The last I loaded with it, I used the Lee COLLET Factory Crimp die which put a hard stab crimp on the case mouth and kept everything together. Better to clean the brass better and use the steel die to get adequate bullet pull.

I recommend you contact the die maker and try to get them to exchange your sizing die for one that will give a good grip on the bullet. Good bullet pull should improve the powder burnup.

[willie]

Ch/4D will make a custom die set based on dimensions of fired cases sent them. You can call or email them and very likely be called back by the owner. Thin case necks make the round difficult to reload. Sometimes the front of case will distort. Making seating and crimping a separate operation will help here. Also trimming cases to the same length is a good idea.
http://ch4d.com

[Jim Watson]

I did.
They told me my brass needed to be annealed.

[gringop]

Another 38-40 update and probably my last with this pistol.

I loaded up 30 rounds using the max load for Universal, 7.5gr and ran them through the chrono.

load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 7.5gr Universal 748 762 699 63 19

I'm glad the we finally broke 700 FPS with this gun, but I had 5 rounds out of the 30 that have some primer leakage so I will back down to 7.3 gr for the future loads. I don't see this as gas bypassing around the edge of the primer but as actual cracks in the primers themselves. They are Win Large Pistol primers.
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I'm happy with the groups I'm getting, I added a dot of red paint on the sight about 3/32 from the top and it is now hitting to POI at 7 yards when I shoot using the red in the real notch.
30768

Here are 2 5shot groups at 7yds. The only other thing that I might do is add a reduced power Wolff mainspring. Not sure if it's worth it.
30769

Gringop

[gringop]

And, of course, I left some info out,

Re. the loose neck, I am now just crimping the heck out of the brass into the crimping groove on the bullet. It's not locking the bullet in rock solid, I can spin the bullet in the brass, but there is no bullet jumping forward under recoil.

Tonight, I tried to set this cartridge up on my Dillon 550 but the Lee seating/crimping die will not screw down far enough to give a good crimp before bottoming out on the Dillon shell plate. There were also issues with getting the the 40 cal powder funnel to work with the non-fully resized cartridge necks, I would have had to throw powder charges manually anyway.

Short of grinding the seating/crimping die shorter, for me, this cartridge can only be reloaded on my Pacific (not quite yet Hornady) single stage "C" press.


Interesting old Pacific/Hornady info

url]https://www.hornady.com/corporate/company-history/[/url]

[gringop]

I'm looking for any info re. a vendor called www.wholesalehunter.com. I see that they have various Uberti/Cimarron rifles and pistols in 38-40.

Has anyone bought from them? They advertise their new stock on gunbroker as well as their own website and I have read some complaints about them selling guns that have already been ordered and paid for to other buyers because the original buyer's ffl did not respond quickly enough.

Just looking for any info from people that purchased firearms from them

Gringop

[DueSpada]

Re hitting below point of aim...Are you holding the gun tight to avoid any shifting in recoil? If so, you might try letting her roll up a bit in your hand, like she wants to. That may get you higher, as well as setting you up on the hammer, ready to haul back for the next bandito.