UCLA Prof dies in "mummification ritual" gone wrong... Yeah, this dude was bonkers.

[Mobettadefense]

"Those of you who had the honor of taking this course or being in one of Doran’s discussion sections know that their heart was as big as their laugh, and that their dedication to social justice was informed by their own queer immigrant experience," said Alicia Gaspar de Alba, a UCLA professor, in a separate note to colleagues.

The room in which he was found — replete with padded floor tiles, a metal cage and a padded examination table — was described as being “outfitted as a BDSM style dungeon” in the autopsy report.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/01/ucla-professor-dies-in-mummification-ritual-at-hollywood-executives-home.html

[LockedBreech]

One of the great things about America is that you can get your rocks off any way you want as long as you're with consenting adults. Ain't my business and I do not judge.

That said, I would not invite him to my barbecue, because freedom of association is also a nice part of America. I wouldn't mind the weird sex stuff at all, but I'm not having my barbecue ruined by someone talking about his social justice discussion group.

[Mobettadefense]

I'll agree with all that ^ and add I ain't referring to any one person as "they" or "their" rather than "he" or "his" on account of some idea that non-gender specific pronouns are or were his preferred mode of address.

[HCM]

I'll agree with all that ^ and add I ain't referring to any one person as "they" or "their" rather than "he" or "his" on account of some idea that non-gender specific pronouns are or were his preferred mode of address.

Yeah, fuck all that.

I don’t care what these freaks do as long as it doesn’t involve kids or animals but I’m not playing their word games.

27672

[BigT]

Interestingly at the end their partner referred to them as he. Which makes me think the the they their bullshit was attention grabbing and not for home use.

I couldn't care less what shape genitals two or more consenting adults rub together, but your pronoun does come form the shape of those genitals

[olstyn]

Would they be more or less triggered to learn that the third word gender in German is "neuter," not "neutral?" :)

[JHC]

I was expecting it was some archaeological experiment.

[Sensei]

I was expecting it was some archaeological experiment.

Yeah, I can just imagine the next installment of Indiana Jones and the Turban Cowboy. This time, Sallah has an unfortunate accident with Indy’s whip.

[BehindBlueI's]

That's not a mummification ritual, which you'd expect to be fatal given the removal of organs. That's just regular ol' bondage that didn't pan out.

[JohnO]

That said, I would not invite him to my barbecue,

Same here because I am not going to be forced to use cockamamie gender neutral pronouns.

[TiroFijo]

That's not a mummification ritual, which you'd expect to be fatal given the removal of organs. That's just regular ol' bondage that didn't pan out.

I'm baffled by the "no charges" part...

UCLA and Hollywood BDSM weirdos party together, what could go wrong?

[blues]

This thread needs...


https://youtu.be/FYbavuReVF4

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm baffled by the "no charges" part...

UCLA and Hollywood BDSM weirdos party together, what could go wrong?

We had a similar one here a few years back. Chloroform in a gas mask ended with a dead guy in a cage. The other guy wasn't charged either, consenting adults who knew the risk and all that. Not really different, legally, then professional sports when people get hurt or killed. You don't charge a race car driver for a crash that kills someone.

In that particular incident the surviving partner killed himself a few months later, though.

[blues]

And people wonder why extraterrestrials haven't made contact...

[BehindBlueI's]

And people wonder why extraterrestrials haven't made contact...

I've seen Rick and Morty. They might be into that sort of thing.

[RoyGBiv]

cockamamie gender neutral
Oxymoron?

[Joe in PNG]

And people wonder why extraterrestrials haven't made contact...

Considering that their favorite thing to do to humans involves "probing Uranus", one would think that BDSM would be a positive plus.

[blues]

Considering that their favorite thing to do to humans involves "probing Uranus", one would think that BDSM would be a positive plus.

And here I thought circling Uranus in search of Klingons was off-putting...

I'm going to go paper my room in aluminum foil now. (Let me know when it's safe to come out. ;))

[SAWBONES]

Yeah, fuck all that.

I don’t care what these freaks do as long as it doesn’t involve kids or animals but I’m not playing their word games.

27672

Amen to that.

And I don't care a whit for political correctness, to date having never yet said or written "nim or her" where the traditional literary non-gendered "he" will suffice.

Modern society has gone nuts with its acquiescence to the lopsided cumbersome preferences, nay demands, of radical feminists and SJWs.
We can be fully egalitarian to both sexes without abusing the language.

[TAZ]

The guy liked playing with fire and got burned. Who cares?

Somewhere in this nation a veteran died, a doctor, a teacher, a father, a mother... people that had real impact on society. Nobody gives a shit about them, so why are we writing articles on a guy getting his rocks off?

[JAD]

That's not a mummification ritual, which you'd expect to be fatal given the removal of organs. That's just regular ol' bondage that didn't pan out.
You know, there are worse ways to go, but I can't think of a more undignified way than autoerotic asphyxiation.

[RevolverRob]

I only read the article far enough to figure out what the guy was a professor in. The good news is there will be a new position in Gender Studies at UCLA, the bad news is it's not in my field. :eek:

[BehindBlueI's]

You know, there are worse ways to go, but I can't think of a more undignified way than autoerotic asphyxiation.

It's an interesting one to tell the family. Yeah, nobody broke in and hung your loved one from the bunk bed with his own belt and pulled his pants down...

[JohnO]

We can be fully egalitarian to both sexes without abusing the language.

Oops! Some half trans cross dressing bi-curious gender fluid whatchamacallit just got their panties/knickers in a knot over that pronouncement of only two.

[Sensei]

And people wonder why extraterrestrials haven't made contact...

I was curious as to what garnered the title of “Professor” and “Doctor” for this freak show. Here is a tasting of the stupidity:

http://www.uniarts.fi/en/newsroom/doran-george-memoriam

Dr. Doran George was a cultural historian writing on sexual culture, avant-garde dance, and performance art...Doran was also a performance artist and choreographer who deconstructed socio-political identity categories, stages work that built and indeed continues to build micro-communities, and cultivate radical practices of intimacy...Doran lectured in Dance, Disability Studies and LGBTQ Studies in UCLA and had recently taken up a new post at University of California Riverside, they had also significantly expanded their teaching into erotic work in both art and sex-positive contexts.

In other words, his academic productivity was the same as any other gay pornstar.

[blues]

I was curious as to what garnered the title of “Professor” and “Doctor” for this freak show. Here is a tasting of the stupidity:

http://www.uniarts.fi/en/newsroom/doran-george-memoriam

Dr. Doran George was a cultural historian writing on sexual culture, avant-garde dance, and performance art...Doran was also a performance artist and choreographer who deconstructed socio-political identity categories, stages work that built and indeed continues to build micro-communities, and cultivate radical practices of intimacy...Doran lectured in Dance, Disability Studies and LGBTQ Studies in UCLA and had recently taken up a new post at University of California Riverside, they had also significantly expanded their teaching into erotic work in both art and sex-positive contexts.

In other words, his academic productivity was the same as any other gay pornstar.

It's a Brave New World...

/s

[SAWBONES]

Oops! Some half trans cross dressing bi-curious gender fluid whatchamacallit just got their panties/knickers in a knot over that pronouncement of only two.

:p

Whatever.
(Honestly don't care)

There are actually important & genuine problems to address in this world, including real physical suffering.

I try to do what I can to address a truly-tiny fraction of this, according to my limited lights and capabilities, on a daily basis, and I have little time for whiny SJW types and their "concerns" about whether everybody is being shown "adequate respect" regarding all their particular whims, or being adequately insulated from "micro-aggressions", or sufficiently protected from all possible stressors.

I have nothing but sympathy for folks who are genuinely confused or troubled about personal gender-identity/sexual-preference matters.

I'm not so tolerant, however, toward those without personal stakes in these problems but who wish to make such issues a cause celebre, essentially meddling in matters which aren't their business.

Nearly every day my wife and I look at each other and ask "what is WRONG with people?!"

[HCountyGuy]

Once again, why is this crap not considered a mental disorder?

Please...PLEASE put them (California) on the other side of the wall. They can come back when they get out of this weird experimenting phase.

[Kukuforguns]

Once again, why is this crap not considered a mental disorder?

Please...PLEASE put them (California) on the other side of the wall. They can come back when they get out of this weird experimenting phase.

California is the world's fifth largest economy. If it was given to Mexico, the many industries in the state would deteriorate quickly which would make things a little worse for everyone.

Also, I long for the day when I will drink a tankard of the tears and anguish that will be released when the Second Amendment gets shoved down California's throat. The next 2-3 years will be very interesting.

[blues]

California is the world's fifth largest economy. If it was given to Mexico, the many industries in the state would deteriorate quickly which would make things a little worse for everyone.

Also, I long for the day when I will drink a tankard of the tears and anguish that will be released when the Second Amendment gets shoved down California's throat. The next 2-3 years will be very interesting.

I think we should look into crafting a "2nd Amendment Ale" --- A "Very, Very Hoppy" brew, indeed.

[HCountyGuy]

California is the world's fifth largest economy. If it was given to Mexico, the many industries in the state would deteriorate quickly which would make things a little worse for everyone.

Also, I long for the day when I will drink a tankard of the tears and anguish that will be released when the Second Amendment gets shoved down California's throat. The next 2-3 years will be very interesting.

Psht, they’d likely finally secede if they were forced to respect the 2nd Amendment.

I might enjoy watching that train-wreck...

[blues]

Psht, they’d likely finally secede if they were forced to respect the 2nd Amendment.

I might enjoy watching that train-wreck...


https://youtu.be/0-1aVVEKep0

[RevolverRob]

I was curious as to what garnered the title of “Professor” and “Doctor” for this freak show.

Well, he earned a PhD to which he wrote a (rather extensive) dissertation; that garnered him the title of "Doctor". Regardless of what we think of the topic of his dissertation research, it was in fact a long labor of research and effort (~6 years worth according to the math) and therefore, he earned his title.

"Professor" is the misnomer. As near as I can tell he was an adjunct lecturer at UCLA and an adjunct at UC-Riverside, not an actual professor.


:p

Whatever.
(Honestly don't care)

There are actually important & genuine problems to address in this world, including real physical suffering.

I try to do what I can to address a truly-tiny fraction of this, according to my limited lights and capabilities, on a daily basis,


That's what I try to do too. "Ladies, Gentlemen, Non-Binary Identifying Individuals" is my go to and I call men and women - men and women - instead of "boys and girls". I like the colloquial "folks" too, because it's non-gender specific.


and I have little time for whiny SJW types and their "concerns" about whether everybody is being shown "adequate respect" regarding all their particular whims, or being adequately insulated from "micro-aggressions", or sufficiently protected from all possible stressors.

This is definitely where I am too - "adequate respect" is bullshit. One of the things that I remind students who say stupid shit is, "You earn respect via your behavior, attitude, and work - not because of a perceived sociocultural status. If you say something stupid, I'll probably be polite about it, but it is not my job to not offend you. It's not my job to not fail you, because you don't "like something". Quite the contrary, it's my job to fail you, it's my job to challenge you, it's my job to make you think hard about what's going on."

[Chance]

So apparently the top was enough of an "expert" he taught seminars in this stuff. Skilled enough to teach others, but not skilled enough to avoid accidentally hurting someone in a really dumb way that was easily avoidable if even the most basic precautions had been taken....

He is the Sonny Puzikas of BDSM.

[Sensei]

Well, he earned a PhD to which he wrote a (rather extensive) dissertation; that garnered him the title of "Doctor". Regardless of what we think of the topic of his dissertation research, it was in fact a long labor of research and effort (~6 years worth according to the math) and therefore, he earned his title.


I’m not questioning the worthiness of his dissertation since effeminate and homoerotic dance is outside my area of expertise. Quite the contrary - I’m questioning the departments and institutions that tolerate that crap as fulfilling the requirements for graduation. Those departments exist for the exclusive purpose of granting legitimacy to lifestyle choices rather than furthering any body of knowledge.

So, pardon me while I continue to wipe my ass with the paper on which UCLA put that degree.

[RevolverRob]

I’m not questioning the worthiness of his dissertation since effeminate and homoerotic dance is outside my area of expertise. Quite the contrary - I’m questioning the departments and institutions that tolerate that crap as fulfilling the requirements for graduation. Those departments exist for the exclusive purpose of granting legitimacy to lifestyle choices rather than furthering any body of knowledge.

So, pardon me while I continue to wipe my ass with the paper on which UCLA put that degree.

Well, I guess we see it differently - the synopsis of his dissertation here - https://www.wacd.ucla.edu/33-about/in-the-news/629-remembering-doran-george - summarizes his work, "George’s dissertation is one of the first major studies in dance to focus on the technical training of the dancer and to connect that training to a larger body politic."

I probably don't agree with his assertions, but by the account there, he spent considerable effort understanding the history of technical training for Somatic dancing combined with placing that in the context of the broader political and socio-cultural movements of the time that originated around this school of dance. Arguably, his dissertation research and thesis are the equivalent to an Art Historian writing a dissertation about the context and history of Van Gogh's paintings.

It seems as though regardless of his political/personal practices, he was at least a good scholar. Should the department of "World Arts and Cultures/Dance" exist? Probably not. But I think his dissertation could have easily fit in with Art History or Historical Cultural Studies or any number of other social science programs and been valid. In other words, it seems to me he could have found a home in "other" more traditional social science programs and been as successful as scholar as he was. In short - his dissertation research and scholarly work is no less valid, because we think his department shouldn't exist.

It could be invalid, because it is stolen, poorly done, or rubber stamped. But frankly, rubber stamping graduate degrees is another problem entirely. The number of times I've seen students get rubber stamp passes on shit work to either A) get rid of them or B) because they had some other place to go - is ridiculous. Most recently, I watched a very mediocre dissertation defense from one of our MD-PhD students that would not have passed muster as a Phd-only body of work. But, because the person was MD-PhD, she had to go back to med school, and because she wasn't planning to practice clinical research - they rubber stamped it and moved on. - That person's degree is really only fit to wipe asses with, in my opinion. :eek:

[Sensei]

Well, I guess we see it differently - the synopsis of his dissertation here - https://www.wacd.ucla.edu/33-about/in-the-news/629-remembering-doran-george - summarizes his work, "George’s dissertation is one of the first major studies in dance to focus on the technical training of the dancer and to connect that training to a larger body politic."

I probably don't agree with his assertions, but by the account there, he spent considerable effort understanding the history of technical training for Somatic dancing combined with placing that in the context of the broader political and socio-cultural movements of the time that originated around this school of dance. Arguably, his dissertation research and thesis are the equivalent to an Art Historian writing a dissertation about the context and history of Van Gogh's paintings.

It seems as though regardless of his political/personal practices, he was at least a good scholar. Should the department of "World Arts and Cultures/Dance" exist? Probably not. But I think his dissertation could have easily fit in with Art History or Historical Cultural Studies or any number of other social science programs and been valid. In other words, it seems to me he could have found a home in "other" more traditional social science programs and been as successful as scholar as he was. In short - his dissertation research and scholarly work is no less valid, because we think his department shouldn't exist.

It could be invalid, because it is stolen, poorly done, or rubber stamped. But frankly, rubber stamping graduate degrees is another problem entirely. The number of times I've seen students get rubber stamp passes on shit work to either A) get rid of them or B) because they had some other place to go - is ridiculous. Most recently, I watched a very mediocre dissertation defense from one of our MD-PhD students that would not have passed muster as a Phd-only body of work. But, because the person was MD-PhD, she had to go back to med school, and because she wasn't planning to practice clinical research - they rubber stamped it and moved on. - That person's degree is really only fit to wipe asses with, in my opinion. :eek:

Yes, yes. I read his abstract, intro, and methods before posting.

Art History? Historical Arts? The guy is writing about late 20th Century homoerotic dancing using his “insider awareness” and “participatory guidance.” I suppose that getting tied up in a Gimp suit the night before could be considered very recent history? I don’t know. That all gets very confusing to me.

As for MD-PhD candidates, don’t get me started. They are worse than the mods in this place - worthless as shit.

[SAWBONES]

As for MD-PhD candidates, don’t get me started. They are worse than the mods in this place - worthless as shit.

Don't want to get too off topic, but as a doc who knows a number of MUDD-PHUDS, I have to mostly agree.

Their subject knowledge isn't really doctorate level, and they're all too often rather crappy docs as well.

I'm sure there are many exceptions.

[Chance]

I'm sure there are many exceptions.

Let's all try to think of one off the top of our heads....

27690

...No one comes to mind. :p

[RevolverRob]

Don't want to get too off topic, but as a doc who knows a number of MUDD-PHUDS, I have to mostly agree.

Their subject knowledge isn't really doctorate level, and they're all too often rather crappy docs as well.

I'm sure there are many exceptions.

Like Sensei who is an MD-PhD holder?

I think we're in agreement that some things do and do not qualify for holding a doctoral degree. I haven't (yet) had the opportunity to serve on a student's doctoral thesis committee. So I cannot say with any certainty how I do/do not interact with the often ill-defined "requirements" to produce a doctoral dissertation (except in my own, personal, case). What I do know is - many programs loosely define the process and a considerable lee-way is given. I think it's a good thing in the name of Academic Freedom and a bad thing in the name of determining who is and is not qualified as an expert.

I often think while some objectivity is important (i.e., are the methods acceptable to a broader community of scholars) to determining the work and quality of it, there is a high degree of subjectivity to it as well. In other words - a doctoral dissertation is like hard-core pornography - which as Potter Stewart said, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."

I can say, I've experienced that not only from my own MS thesis and current PhD work, but I am currently serving on an undergraduate thesis committee and have seen some of the ill-defined requirements already face up in terms of defining projects, goals, and what constitutes "adequate" in terms of a thesis at the undergrad level. We've generally agreed as a committee, that two chapters, one representing a review of the problem and definition of the question the student is addressing and one representing the work that the student conducts - can serve as "adequate", given that the review is thorough and the work is conducted properly. But that's how much leeway has been given to us as a committee. There is no defined requirement otherwise. Just what the committee approves, followed by final approval by the committee and one additional reader.

[BehindBlueI's]

The guy is writing about late 20th Century homoerotic dancing using his “insider awareness” and “participatory guidance.”

And he made a living doing so. Neat.

[Stephanie B]

That said, I would not invite him to my barbecue, because freedom of association is also a nice part of America. I wouldn't mind the weird sex stuff at all, but I'm not having my barbecue ruined by someone talking about his social justice discussion group.
During social occasions, civilized people do not discuss sex, religion, politics or the NY Yankees.

[David C.]

As for MD-PhD candidates, don’t get me started. They are worse than the mods in this place - worthless as shit.


Careful, I would not go that far. :cool:

[Stephanie B]

I'll agree with all that ^ and add I ain't referring to any one person as "they" or "their" rather than "he" or "his" on account of some idea that non-gender specific pronouns are or were his preferred mode of address.
Doesn't bother me. Just as long as they don't insist that I address them as "lord", "master" or "President Trump", fine. If some crazed one-eyed hermit in the `Glades wants me to address him as "Captain", I'm good with that.

[Stephanie B]

And people wonder why extraterrestrials haven't made contact...

Maybe because they have a subscription to The National Enquirer?

[Mjolnir]

Mums the word... 🤷🏽*♂️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAD]

(~6 years worth according to the math) and therefore, he earned his title.
."

That’s a lot of felching.

[LockedBreech]

During social occasions, civilized people do not discuss sex, religion, politics or the NY Yankees.

Good rule of thumb, Stephanie. :)

[WobblyPossum]

During social occasions, civilized people do not discuss sex, religion, politics or the NY Yankees.

I don’t know what civilized people do discuss but it sounds like it their conversations might be boring more often than not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

That’s a lot of felching.

Well, now that I googled the definition for that I wish I hadn't.

[Peally]

Being a doctor =/= always (or even often) being intelligent.

[Joe in PNG]

If some crazed one-eyed hermit in the `Glades wants me to address him as "Captain", I'm good with that.

I see what you did there.

[Stephanie B]

Well, now that I googled the definition for that I wish I hadn't.

Thanks to you, I won’t look it up. I very much appreciate that (I think).


Damn the iPhone Typos!

[Peally]

It's sucking man juice out of man butts. Now I know one more thing our sick species does.

[Stephanie B]

It's sucking man juice out of man butts. Now I know one more thing our sick species does.

You just had to go there, didn't you?

I'll bet you're just the kind of guy to say "it's a sled" to people going to see Citizen Kane for the first time. Or maybe you tell people who Keyser Soze was. You probably were yelling out the secret for The Crying Game, too.

Some people's kids.....

[Peally]

You just had to go there, didn't you?

I'll bet you're just the kind of guy to say "it's a sled" to people going to see Citizen Kane for the first time. Or maybe you tell people who Keyser Soze was. You probably were yelling out the secret for The Crying Game, too.

Some people's kids.....

Hey, it's either my explanation or 5 people here are gonna need eye bleach after a Google search. It's my good deed of the day.

[RevolverRob]

Public Service Announcement -

If you see/hear a term someplace that you believe may be dangerous to your vision if you Google it -

LOOK IT UP ON URBANDICTIONARY.COM.

There are not pictures on Urban Dictionary - you can read the definitions and decide if you want to research further or not.

[underhook]

Another consenting adults. Not for me to judge or worry mental cycles on either way.

[Nephrology]

As for MD-PhD candidates, don’t get me started. They are worse than the mods in this place - worthless as shit.

https://i.imgur.com/HgKYT4X.gif

[Sensei]

Like Sensei who is an MD-PhD holder?

What I do know is - many programs loosely define the process and a considerable lee-way is given. I think it's a good thing in the name of Academic Freedom and a bad thing in the name of determining who is and is not qualified as an expert.

I often think while some objectivity is important (i.e., are the methods acceptable to a broader community of scholars) to determining the work and quality of it, there is a high degree of subjectivity to it as well. In other words - a doctoral dissertation is like hard-core pornography - which as Potter Stewart said, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."


Rather than get caught up in evaluating individual dissertations as worthy or not, I’m more interested in what we as an academic community consider scholarship and academic productivity. It seems to me that the major criteria today is that the subject matter make the right people golf clap and nod their heads in agreement. Case in point, how often will you see “participatory guidance” and “insider awareness” being used as methods in a dissertation on the topic defensive handgun use in an Urban Studies Department? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating that we allow firearms SMEs write dissertations to get PhDs, but doing so would at least be intellectually superior (and far more interesting to me) than the meaningless words that comprised this nut’s dissertation.

What I’m advocating is that academia needs to grow the hell up. Not every topic is worthy of the term scholarship. Not every pet ideology needs a department, center, or institute. If we do not police ourselves, then the value of our PhDs will continue to be diluted as our institutions are already cranking out far to many doctorates. FWIW, this is happening across the health sciences disciplines too as more and more non-scholarship doctorates are awarded in areas such as nursing practice, physician assistant, etc. (i.e. NP’s and PAs who want to play doctor without all the hard work).


And he made a living doing so. Neat.

No, he didn’t.

He made a killing. I’m not sure if dying by asphyxiation is what I would call neat, but YMMV.

[Sensei]

Don't want to get too off topic, but as a doc who knows a number of MUDD-PHUDS, I have to mostly agree.

Their subject knowledge isn't really doctorate level, and they're all too often rather crappy docs as well.

I'm sure there are many exceptions.

Clinically, most of them can’t tell the difference between an anoscope and stethoscope. In the lab, they are likely to load the gel backwards without even doing a protein determination. They truly make orthopedists look smart.


The content of this post is sarcasm. Offended parties should try Anusol cream.

[SAWBONES]

Clinically, most of them can’t tell the difference between an anoscope and stethoscope. In the lab, they are likely to load the gel backwards without even doing a protein determination. They truly make orthopedists look smart.


The content of this post is sarcasm. Offended parties should try Anusol cream.

And if you're a MUDD-PHUDD, I wasn't aware of it, and certainly no offense was intended toward you.

[Sensei]

And if you're a MUDD-PHUDD, I wasn't aware of it, and certainly no offense was intended toward you.

:cool:

I find the best humor/sarcasm is generally self-deprecating. People who take themselves too seriously are no fun.

[Nephrology]

Clinically, most of them can’t tell the difference between an anoscope and stethoscope. In the lab, they are likely to load the gel backwards without even doing a protein determination. They truly make orthopedists look smart.


The content of this post is sarcasm. Offended parties should try Anusol cream.

and sometimes I even sleep in on weekdays! #gradschool (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=gradschool)

[BehindBlueI's]

Public Service Announcement -

If you see/hear a term someplace that you believe may be dangerous to your vision if you Google it -

LOOK IT UP ON URBANDICTIONARY.COM.

There are not pictures on Urban Dictionary - you can read the definitions and decide if you want to research further or not.

That's why I add "definition" to the google search, but yeah UD would also be a valid option. Again, knowledge I wish I didn't have.

[Erik]

Again, knowledge I wish I didn't have.

...that will be awesome to share with the right (unsuspecting) people. Although you may be surprised how many already know.

[SAWBONES]

Well, now that I googled the definition for that I wish I hadn't.

Innocence of knowledge about certain things is good.

(I had never heard the term either when I first encountered it in the Jo Momma forum of the Adventure Rider website several years ago.)

[blues]

That's why I add "definition" to the google search, but yeah UD would also be a valid option. Again, knowledge I wish I didn't have.

I didn't look at the article or any of the links in this thread for fear of losing my lunch. Then, someone posted a term I'd not heard of in the "meme" thread and I just knew it was somehow related to this thread.

I put the term in google and well, it's too early to lose my lunch but my coffee was in danger there for a moment...

WTF!!!

[RevolverRob]

What I’m advocating is that academia needs to grow the hell up. Not every topic is worthy of the term scholarship. Not every pet ideology needs a department, center, or institute. If we do not police ourselves, then the value of our PhDs will continue to be diluted as our institutions are already cranking out far to many doctorates. FWIW, this is happening across the health sciences disciplines too as more and more non-scholarship doctorates are awarded in areas such as nursing practice, physician assistant, etc. (i.e. NP’s and PAs who want to play doctor without all the hard work).


In that we are in firm agreement, brother.

I'm hopeful that the inevitable belt tightening to come, following the collapse of the higher ed bubble, will result in the elimination of a fair number of these extraneous programs and departments. I've already seen - wholesale - departments wiped out when budget crunches hit. The good news is - the first things to go are Gender Studies and the billion 'Fine Arts' programs that have earned special status. Because unlike natural sciences, health, math, or business - the classic Liberal Arts do not generate significant financial support for the university. They cannot eliminate English, History, Art, or Foreign Language departments entirely, but they can certainly trim away the extraneous departments that have popped up in the last 20-30 years. "Interdisciplinary" programs that lack significant funding contributions will also go away.

At the end of the day, money rules, and I think it will ultimately be the lack of (monetary) contribution that spells the end for many of these places. I'm okay with that. Personally, I'm looking for jobs in Biology or Geology departments, two subjects they really cannot eliminate from the curricula.

That will be the first purge of extraneous PhDs. Then comes tightening (by circumscribing?) the requirements for attaining a PhD in most departments. I, personally, would have flunked about a third of my fellow PhD students out of my program already if I had my way, but I'm mercenary like that. Most of them are crappy scientists more interested in playing softball and drinking beer than being legitimate scholars. The good news is, the tight job market eventually shows those folks the door (like for instance, the 8th year PhD student who hasn't published a single paper and wonders why he can't get a post-doc...).

[SAWBONES]

What I’m advocating is that academia needs to grow the hell up. Not every topic is worthy of the term scholarship. Not every pet ideology needs a department, center, or institute. If we do not police ourselves, then the value of our PhDs will continue to be diluted as our institutions are already cranking out far to many doctorates. FWIW, this is happening across the health sciences disciplines too as more and more non-scholarship doctorates are awarded in areas such as nursing practice, physician assistant, etc. (i.e. NP’s and PAs who want to play doctor without all the hard work).

Definitely agree, and don't forget Physical Therapy.

Nursing and PT are pretend Doctorates.

I can only assume that those who advocate for such things have probably never known much about the Medieval history of university education nor much cared about genuine in-depth scholarship and true mastery of a significant academic subject.

How can there be a Doctor of Philosophy degree in a support therapy which simply serves the science and art of Medicine?

It seems to me that it's all part of the modern dumbing down and devaluing of education in the USA.

[Sensei]

It seems to me that it's all part of the modern dumbing down and devaluing of education in the USA.

There certainly is a degree of “everybody gets a trophy” mentality at play. However, the larger issue is one of money. There is a significant push by mid-level providers / physician extenders to assume greater unsupervised practice and directly bill for their services with minimal to zero physician oversight. The NPs are leading this effort, but PAs are not far behind. Having the word “doctor” before their name helps with lobbying when the average state representative can’t tell the difference between an osteopath and chiropractor.

Truth be told, this is a monster largely of our own making. We gradually reduced our oversight as reimbursements were cut thereby undermining the intellectual honesty of our position that NPs, PA, CNAs, midwives, etc. need physician supervision. That, coupled with an explosion in NP/PA training programs, has created a situation where they can lobby en masse state legislators and regulators to loosen oversight requirements. This is an attractive proposition to state lawmakers who see a “doctor equivalent” willing to perform roughly the same work for less dollars - or so they say.

[Nephrology]

There certainly is a degree of “everybody gets a trophy” mentality at play. However, the larger issue is one of money. There is a significant push by mid-level providers / physician extenders to assume greater unsupervised practice and directly bill for their services with minimal to zero physician oversight. The NPs are leading this effort, but PAs are not far behind. Having the word “doctor” before their name helps with lobbying when the average state representative can’t tell the difference between an osteopath and chiropractor.

Truth be told, this is a monster largely of our own making. We gradually reduced our oversight as reimbursements were cut thereby undermining the intellectual honesty of our position that NPs, PA, CNAs, midwives, etc. need physician supervision. That, coupled with an explosion in NP/PA training programs, has created a situation where they can lobby en masse state legislators and regulators to loosen oversight requirements. This is an attractive proposition to state lawmakers who see a “doctor equivalent” willing to perform roughly the same work for less dollars - or so they say.

Not to mention to large private healthcare organizations that can pay an NP or PA ~40% the salary of an MD to do "the same job."

To be fair, this isn't a wholly negative thing. from an institutional cost-saving perspective, having mid-levels take easy/uncomplicated patients (like an ED Obs/Extended Stay Unit) makes perfect sense. You don't need an MD to babysit someone who is waiting to be d/c'd to jail/washing out from meth/is being admitted to the hospital for telemetry. However, for the 1% of those patients who will suddenly go into VTach -> VFib, you have to have an MD around.

Sort of like how I am sure Family Medicine/CNMs do a great job managing lots of pregnant women... but if/when I have kids, they will be delivered by board certified OB/GYN.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While far afield now from Mummy's Day, the Chronicle of Higher Education is all over the PhD glut in the Humanties and the cuts happening due to financial pressures. There is an argument for Humanities courses to understand history, philosophy, literature and foreign language - makes you an educated adult. I was discussing this was a bunch of old gun toting academics today. However, they abandoned the idea of a general survey course for boutique courses based on useless microtopics for the general student. The boutique courses had a focus on social justice issues for the most part. An art history teacher said the stupidest thing they ever did was get rid of the required Art History course as it killed their major and reason to be in the school. A general Art History course is good to be an educated adult as are good survey courses.

Sociology and Anthropology courses have defined themselves as cause oriented as compared to being scholarly. That's killing them also. The Chronicle had a good article on why education PhDs are BS. I agree having met many. There's no reason for the evil principal get a PhD in what they call educational science. Bah.

[RevolverRob]

The NP that sewed my arm up the other day did a nice job of it and had excellent bedside manner. I wasn't bleeding to death and in theory I could have sewn my own arm up (but the tetanus shot and local anesthetic were nice), so I'm fine with having been seen by an NP. I do kind of wish it hadn't taken five hours to get sewn up. But what do I expect?

Considering the patient across the hall needed her Oxy fix since she was traveling from California without her script, was going through withdrawal, and apparently couldn't find a dealer. When I overheard her telling the in-resident MD that she had a history of drug abuse and give him a sob story about trying to get better, I found myself wishing I had just sewn my own arm up...My tax dollars at work so Valley Princess can get high and keep the shakes at bay - while I wait for actual (moderate) emergency medical care. :rolleyes:




Sociology and Anthropology courses have defined themselves as cause oriented as compared to being scholarly. That's killing them also. The Chronicle had a good article on why education PhDs are BS. I agree having met many. There's no reason for the evil principal get a PhD in what they call educational science. Bah.

Sociology and Cultural Anth are suffering. Fortunately, archeology, physical anthropology, and forensic anthropology have no place for "cause oriented" courses, because the training is highly directed to career trajectories. I think I've mentioned before, the group of folks I went through with doing Archeology and Phys Anthro (two of the specializations in our Anthropology Dept) about 75-80% of them are still doing archeology/advanced scholarly training of some type focused on studying material culture and/or fossils. The ones who did Cultural Anthropology as a specialization are...well they make mean cups of coffee.

[Totem Polar]

He is the Sonny Puzikas of BDSM.

I have got to find a way to use this. Sig worthy line, right there.


...I’m more interested in what we as an academic community consider scholarship and academic productivity. It seems to me that the major criteria today is that the subject matter make the right people golf clap and nod their heads in agreement. Case in point, how often will you see “participatory guidance” and “insider awareness” being used as methods in a dissertation on the topic defensive handgun use in an Urban Studies Department? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating that we allow firearms SMEs write dissertations to get PhDs, but doing so would at least be intellectually superior (and far more interesting to me) than the meaningless words that comprised this nut’s dissertation.


The echo chamber effect is real and A) rewards the agreement head nod, and B) is stiffling innovation and growth. To wit: this weekend I had a chance to teach my subject area, along with a couple of 30-something doctorate holders in the same field. Across 3 days, each of us got to take a morning to lead the group through "warm ups". Docoral guy #1: here’s a bunch of slur exercises, and how you do them well." Doctoral gal #2: here’s a bunch of slur exercises, and how you do them well." Me (who has no doctorate, but has been to ECQC twice, along with a bunch of other stuff): "who here can define ‘warm up?’ Anyone? Those are good ideas, how about this; ‘the motions of an activity done under progressive and increasing degrees of load.’ Now let’s talk about the ways we can increase load on our instrument; tempo, complexity, length of passage, etc.... ok, now let’s discuss psychomotor learning, and how we can use some philosophy to set the sail for a productive journey through the warm up process; let’s start with the metacarpophalangeal joint, and how we think about it in both hands... blah, blah."

Point being, my friends and mentors who train the SOF community can all talk about adult learning theory and psychomotor learning as applied to efficiently kicking ass; how anyone with a doctorate in instrumental performance cannot is mildly compelling. This in no way takes away from my colleagues’ phenomenal and stellar personal artistry, but it does make me wonder what’s taught in our elite grad schools. But I digress.


In that we are in firm agreement, brother.

I'm hopeful that the inevitable belt tightening to come, following the collapse of the higher ed bubble, will result in the elimination of a fair number of these extraneous programs and departments. I've already seen - wholesale - departments wiped out when budget crunches hit. The good news is - the first things to go are Gender Studies and the billion 'Fine Arts' programs that have earned special status. Because unlike natural sciences, health, math, or business - the classic Liberal Arts do not generate significant financial support for the university. They cannot eliminate English, History, Art, or Foreign Language departments entirely, but they can certainly trim away the extraneous departments that have popped up in the last 20-30 years. "Interdisciplinary" programs that lack significant funding contributions will also go away.


I hope you’re right. When the axe came a callin’ in my neck of the woods we got a new VP of diversity, along with a brand new diversity center, and lost the grad program in math.


The Chronicle had a good article on why education PhDs are BS. I agree having met many. There's no reason for the evil principal get a PhD in what they call educational science. Bah.

Most ed dissertations are tripe. JMO. Plus, I’ve met more than one person with a music ed doctorate who displayed absolutely no musical ability whatsoever. I’m not talking about performance talent, I’m talking they really didn’t know shit about music. Zip, nada, bupkis. Amazing, really.

[SAWBONES]

There certainly is a degree of “everybody gets a trophy” mentality at play.
However, the larger issue is one of money. There is a significant push by mid-level providers / physician extenders to assume greater unsupervised practice and directly bill for their services with minimal to zero physician oversight. The NPs are leading this effort, but PAs are not far behind. Having the word “doctor” before their name helps with lobbying when the average state representative can’t tell the difference between an osteopath and chiropractor.

Truth be told, this is a monster largely of our own making. We gradually reduced our oversight as reimbursements were cut thereby undermining the intellectual honesty of our position that NPs, PA, CNAs, midwives, etc. need physician supervision. That, coupled with an explosion in NP/PA training programs, has created a situation where they can lobby en masse state legislators and regulators to loosen oversight requirements. This is an attractive proposition to state lawmakers who see a “doctor equivalent” willing to perform roughly the same work for less dollars - or so they say.

Yeah, well not of my making.

Many docs (myself definitely included) are neither especially "business-savvy" nor even particularly business-interested.

I've been at this for over 35 years, and have never yet made use of "mid-level" or "physician extender" personnel, other than MAs, preferring on ethical-moral grounds to personally handle or direct everything myself, "hands-on", as it were.

My motives in practice, personally, have never been predominantly financial, and money doesn't rule everything in medicine yet, though it's definitely the major driving incentive at the corporate level.

There are some smart NPs out there (many of whom work without any required physician oversight at all), and some good PAs too (PAs necessarily have physician supervision), though there are not that many top-notch PAs, IME.

Anyway, both types of "physician extenders" handle any number of common or trivial or minor medical complaints or problems well enough, but their knowledge is both limited in scope and significantly superficial in depth, and they therefore too often fail in addressing anything complex or requiring a greater breadth of knowledge and understanding.

Very likely nothing will meaningfully improve or enhance medical care (diagnosis & treatment) quality and value at this point, but we soldier on.

Anyway, apologies for contributing to thread-drift that is rather tangential to the subject(s) of the original topic.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Chronicle just had a big article that the Humanities as we know them are doomed. It's behind their paywall though. So might as well enjoy whatever turns you on in that field, sad to say.

[RJ]

Hey, it's either my explanation or 5 people here are gonna need eye bleach after a Google search. It's my good deed of the day.

You are a good man.

[willie]

Grade inflation contributes to decreasing academic rigor and has been doing so for at least 45 years. It occurs at all levels. Lowering admission standards to affirm and to include and avoid excluding and to be sensitive to be diverse groups has also watered down scholarship. We are past the point of no return. They who might advocate return to former standards would be viewed as giant assholes.

[RevolverRob]

Grade inflation contributes to decreasing academic rigor and has been doing so for at least 45 years. It occurs at all levels. Lowering admission standards to affirm and to include and avoid excluding and to be sensitive to be diverse groups has also watered down scholarship. We are past the point of no return. They who might advocate return to former standards would be viewed as giant assholes.

I recently learned that more than half of the Ivy League schools do not give Fs. Or if they do, they do not show them on your official transcripts. They allow students to take "Incompletes" in place of actual Failures. This has produced a really fascinating subset of students. One of whom is a first year PhD student in my program who came directly from undergrad. He failed his first class, ever, as a grad student (not the place to fail classes...) - simultaneously his girlfriend dumped him - and he realized that research is hard. He is coming apart at the seams, because this is literally the first time he has faced adversity of any type in his life.

He's 23 years old and never failed before...Unfortunately for him, he is failing now and will probably flunk out of the program. Being the first person to do so in several years.

I'd offer to help him, but he's a grade A prick when he isn't failing and is now coming apart. It's time for him to washout and experience life.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Get that from the WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-graduated-cum-laude-so-did-everyone-else-1530523801

My take on grade inflation being in the business since 1975 (some factors influence some institutions and not others):

1. A major reason was the draft. Students had to keep their grades up for their 2-S draft status during Viet Nam. Given the great resistance to the war, professors were reluctant to fail folks so they would end up getting drafted. Were the deferments fair, that's a different issue and one reason we have a volunteer force now. The draft wouldn't be viable under the old rules. The shift upward in grades from the Viet Nam era stuck.

2. Colleges need money - most businesses don't give a customer a test and throw them out, preventing them from buying their product. An excellent and sucessful firearms instructor might toss a nut or total incompetent but that's rare.

3. Faculty jobs are hard to get. Promotions and raises are hard to get. You get evaluated by the folks you critique. Why take the chance to be a hard ass and hurt yourself? Who gives a crap if a kid passes or not, if you put yourself at risk. If you are an adjunct, it would be foolish to be tough grader. Don't tell me to tell folks to destroy their financial life for the 'good' of academy.

4. Students are coming into colleges very ill prepared. The kids from diverse groups may have horrendous K-12 educations, such that even the well motivated ones lack basic skills as they were short changed in crappy schools.

5. The elite kids and their helicopter parents want success, so do you want to deal with that. Fun to get calls from parents complaining about your grading.

6. Athletics - a totally corrupt system that makes up fake courses and pressures vulnerable faculty to give grades. Add athletic fan/wannabee faculty who cater to teams.

[JAD]

He's 23 years old and never failed before...Unfortunately for him, he is failing now and will probably flunk out of the program. Being the first person to do so in several years.


The world needs ditchdiggers, Danny.

[GardoneVT]

At a previous employer, the company hired two PhD students as analysts. In a result which will surprise no one here but totally shocked the hiring manager,they were the worst performing employees in recent memory. One of them blatantly lied about a practical computer skill needed to do the job. The other demanded promotion in her first two months despite multiple errors in data preparation.

At this rate,you’re going to see a lot more reddit posts from PhD holders complaining that they can’t find work.

[willie]

When recruiters visit Harvard to interview business graduates, they are not allowed to ask about grades. Rob's example of the unraveling prick shows a kid who was moved along and then out for the purpose of getting rid of him. Maybe somebody should have planted dope in his locker when he was in high school. Of course, I say that in jest. HaHa.

[Totem Polar]

Get that from the WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-graduated-cum-laude-so-did-everyone-else-1530523801

My take on grade inflation being in the business since 1975 (some factors influence some institutions and not others):



"You graduated Cum Laude? So did everyone else...". LoL, that’s the brutal truth of the matter, right there.

Unsurprisingly, Glenn, I find your analysis to be solid.

[Chance]

Students are coming into colleges very ill prepared. The kids from diverse groups may have horrendous K-12 educations, such that even the well motivated ones lack basic skills as they were short changed in crappy schools.

I see this all the time in my intro classes. Another effect is that smart students tend to coast through grade school having never really been challenged. They end up thinking they're special - through no fault of their own. When they show up at school that actually expects students to perform, they think they're going to coast through that program the way they coasted through high school.

Nope. By the time they realize they're going to have to apply themselves, their grades are shit and they lose their scholarships. I've lost count of how many times I've seen this happen, and I haven't been on this side of the lectern that long.


At a previous employer, the company hired two PhD students as analysts.

A number of years ago, we had a grad student finish his MS, get hired and then fired in less than a week. Because he was an international student and couldn't get a job, the department admitted him as a PhD student so he wouldn't get kicked out of the country. True story, sadly....

A lot of MS programs are money-making degree mills. PhD programs (at least in my particular field) usually aren't, but that still doesn't mean the people in them have any real work ethic.

[RevolverRob]

The world needs ditchdiggers, Danny.

And more ditchdiggers than professors of biology.

I am very clear about this to my students. There are more privates and corporals in the Army than Generals. If one wants to be a General, they have to work hard, politic well, and be exceptional strategists.


At a previous employer, the company hired two PhD students as analysts. In a result which will surprise no one here but totally shocked the hiring manager,they were the worst performing employees in recent memory. One of them blatantly lied about a practical computer skill needed to do the job. The other demanded promotion in her first two months despite multiple errors in data preparation.

At this rate,you’re going to see a lot more reddit posts from PhD holders complaining that they can’t find work.

What?! You mean Natural Science PhD holders aren't better equipped to analyze complex data than a kid with a Computer Science degree and some statistical training?

I could go on a pages-long rant about the rise of "alternative PhD career paths", but I'll keep it short. PhDs are for extensive training in a specialized field - not for general training in any given field. The rise of "well our students analyze data, therefore they're good Data Scientists" as a philosophy is becoming more rampant. Rather than flunk out the failures or even better - not admit them - we convince them they can do something else and get them out so we don't have to see them. Then we take credit for their "success" and laud ourselves as being adequately prepared and trained to place "non-academic tract candidates".

I've never met a businessman who was impressed with a PhD's credentials over 5-years of practical work experience. I've been that businessman and I know who I'd hire.


"You graduated Cum Laude? So did everyone else...". LoL, that’s the brutal truth of the matter, right there.

Unsurprisingly, Glenn, I find your analysis to be solid.

The trouble is, the admissions committees, still focus on grade numbers. Like grade inflation isn't a real thing. I've had faculty members literally say to me, "Well X is from Harvard and had a great GPA. I don't understand why they are struggling here? Meanwhile, you're from a state school with a crappy GPA and are doing fine."

Gee, thanks for that ringing endorsement - is usually my first response. Followed by, "Did you ever think a crappy GPA means a student failed but kept going despite those failures? Who makes a better candidate, someone who can fail, but pick themselves up and try again, or someone who has never failed before?"

"Oh."

They just don't get it. I'm not sure why, really, lack of practical experience? Lack of significant failure in their own life? I'm not sure. But I've also discovered that people who view numbers as significant often have a very hard time "reading" people and personalities. Which I do contribute to a lack of practical experience. In place of practical experience, they attempt to substitute a numerical evaluation of a human. It almost never works.



A lot of MS programs are money-making degree mills. PhD programs (at least in my particular field) usually aren't, but that still doesn't mean the people in them have any real work ethic.

I tell people this straight up. "If you're not getting paid to go to graduate school in the Natural Sciences, you're doing it wrong."

Paying people has the benefit of sorting wheat from the chaff if the (work) supervisor stays on top of the student doing the work.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The alternative PhD paths in many fields, I agree are just PR from scholarly associations to try to keep grad students applying to their programs to be their graduate assistants. The degree focuses on a hyperspecific problem that might have little transfer to anything.

Tell a newly minted PhD cognitive psychologist on a job interview that your small college might want said applicant also to teach Social Psych - it blows their mind.

Actually, it's not that hard nowadays as book companies give you an entire course prepacked with electronic media.

In the real job world - you don't get a set of PPTs that do your job.

Just read another piece that the Humanities screwed themselves by ditching the intro survey courses for their field as part of distribution requirements in favor of no requirement, boutique micro courses or social justice focused electives. Enrollments vanished and cost cutters went for their throats. Cost cutters might have seen the utility of sections of Civilization, Great Literature, etc. to educate the masses but not the utility of a seminar on the esoteric crap.

For the record, I thought history courses and Classics were great educational experiences for an educated citizen. Just as the general science requirements. The latter have been so weakened for pop crap, like a one semester of Chemistry and Crime to be an entire science requirement. A quantitative experience of one semester for a math requirement (this is a graph).

[VT1032]

They just don't get it. I'm not sure why, really, lack of practical experience? Lack of significant failure in their own life? I'm not sure.

Nailed it. Many of your fellow faculty, etc. are the culminating product of the very students you are talking about and have never lived in the real world or known anything but academia. I work the administrative side of higher ed and see it all the time. It's usually pretty obvious which faculty got a late start in academia vs those that went straight through the pipeline, almost like the difference between prior-enlisted officers vs those that just comissioned. Some are fine, but many are highly intelligent adult children that require constant hand holding in anything that doesn't directly relate to their field.

Most of my favorite faculty generally are either late arrivals that have real world life experience, prior-military or LE who jumped into higher ed as a second career, or a lot of the faculty in STEM fields, who in general, seem more grounded in reality. The "hand-holders" tend to overwhelmingly reside in the humanities related departments with a few notable exceptions.

[Stephanie B]

The world needs ditchdiggers, Danny.

And soldiers.

I'm way away from academia. Two groups that I have little to do with are Ph.Ds and MBAs. Nothing bad about that, just they're not heavily populated on the road I've been on.

But, having said that, I did once deal with a guy who had a Ph.D. in some math field from Yale whom I would not have trusted with a butter knife.

[That Guy]

(deleted)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just to defend a small segment of the PhD population, I did do the old NTI with a group that had 3 psych and one anthro PhDs in our group. I do know three gun loving PhDs locally but I can't get them to train or compete though. Sigh. There were several gun in the underwear drawer types at work. Two other PhDs at work who were quite legit warriors, medals and stuff in Spec. Forces in Viet Nam and a real SEAL. One PhD who did legit classes with trainers we respect. One reserve LEO. Gave gun advice to some newbies and range trips.

Interestingly quite a few young women students were all for getting LTCs when they were able. However, the large majority of faculty were clearly guns are an abomination types. As was the administration.

[Stephanie B]

When I was in law school (mid-late `90s), a classmate and I formed a marksmanship society. We got money from the activity fund to rent out an indoor range for two hours on a Sunday before they opened. We did that for two years. Each time, about 20 students came and about half of them were 20-somethings who had never held a gun before. Those of us who had guns, brought them and let others try them. (Lots of interest in shooting my Model 29.) About a third or so of those who had never shot a gun before ended up buying one.

But brother, the professors did not like it at all.

[txdpd]

27838