AFHF & RDS Transition

[LSP972]

Due to steadily deteriorating vision, I'm moving to red dots on my carry iron. I've been dabbling with this for over a year, putting it off, but now I've got to get serious about it.

It would seem to me that the AFHF class synopsis is ideal for getting maximum immersion on the concept. I already tried it in a Givens class, was frustrated by the slow dot-acquisition times, and finished that class with normal irons. Since then, I have been working with the pistols and have learned how to pick up the dot quickly.

Most classes I am aware of include instructional periods on mindset, tactics, etc. Without trying to sound arrogant, I don't need any of that; already got it, thanks to an adult life of professional carry. What I'm looking for is a pressured environment to burn the changes needed in my technique (to accomodate the red dot) into my subconscious. I can't get that training on my own, even with a timer. A high round count, with almost all shooting devoted to technique as opposed to tactics/mindset, is what I'm after.

My question, to those of you who have taken the class AND have experience with red dots ON A CARRY PISTOL, is this... would this class be worth my time and resource expenditure? I guess what I'm really asking is, is the synopsis/instruction flexible enough to accomodate the subtle differences in RDS shooting vs irons shooting?

TIA for any insight...

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[jmcrawf1]

I'm of no help with your RDS issue, but AFHF is on my short list of classes to attend if it can be arranged in LA again....

[DocGKR]

It helped me transition to an RDS equipped G19...

[GJM]

AFHF is a great class. A question is whether you want an instructor running a RDS, or at least very familiar with a RDS.

I agree that you don't want a class that is all about tactics, when what you really want to do is transition to a RDS. You just need to shoot it in as wide a range of circumstances as possible -- meaning your own practice, matches and classes. I am running a RDS thru RSS next month, and a Frank Garcia class next week.

While dry fire is no substitute for shooting, with an RDS, I find that dry firing is very important, as it is dot acquisition that is the hard part. I also found a laser to be helpful, because it allows you to press out in an efficient manner, and use the laser to help visualize a direct press out that places the dot in the right place.

[LSP972]

It helped me transition to an RDS equipped G19...

Good to know. Thanks.

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[LSP972]

A question is whether you want an instructor running a RDS, or at least very familiar with a RDS.



Why should that matter? The techniques taught won't be radically different between RDS and irons, yes? From extensive reading, talking with folks going through it, and my own limited experience, it seems to me that getting lined up properly (and quickly) for that all-important first shot is a matter of learning how to adjust one's overall grip and posture to ensure the dot is immediately visible... IOW, I don't have to "hunt" for it. This is the main issue I had in the Givens class... I was using my ingrained grip/posture, and wasn't seeing the dot right away.

I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

But again, what difference does it make if the instructor has one or not?

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[GJM]

Why should that matter? The techniques taught won't be radically different between RDS and irons, yes? From extensive reading, talking with folks going through it, and my own limited experience, it seems to me that getting lined up properly (and quickly) for that all-important first shot is a matter of learning how to adjust one's overall grip and posture to ensure the dot is immediately visible... IOW, I don't have to "hunt" for it. This is the main issue I had in the Givens class... I was using my ingrained grip/posture, and wasn't seeing the dot right away.

I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

But again, what difference does it make if the instructor has one or not?

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If you reread your third sentence, I think you have answered your own question.

[YVK]

I don't have nearly as much experience with RDS as Doc and George do, but, having shot AFHF curriculum twice, I believe that Todd's technique and methodology of getting a quick and accurate first shot is not something you can fully use with an RDS. You can take a class and it will enrich you anyway and, should you continue pursuing RDS, may help you develop your way of doing it. I just tend to think you'll find Todd's stuff not very conducive to RDS thing.

[LSP972]

If you reread your third sentence, I think you have answered your own question.

Well, I must be dense, as I still don't follow what you're getting at re the instructor aspect of it.

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[LSP972]

I don't have nearly as much experience with RDS as Doc and George do, but, having shot AFHF curriculum twice, I believe that Todd's technique and methodology of getting a quick and accurate first shot is not something you can fully use with an RDS. You can take a class and it will enrich you anyway and, should you continue pursuing RDS, may help you develop your way of doing it. I just tend to think you'll find Todd's stuff not very conducive to RDS thing.

Hmmmm... interesting. Thanks for the input.

I'm definitely going to "continue pursuing it"...I have no choice, thanks to macular degeneration.

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[GJM]

Well, I must be dense, as I still don't follow what you're getting at re the instructor aspect of it.

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Would you rather have an instructor that shoots an RDS, understands the differences in how to present the pistol so as to quickly acquire the dot, understands the type drills that help you make the transition to a dot, or train with someone that has zero to little experience shooting an RDS on a handgun?

[YVK]

Would you rather have an instructor that shoots an RDS, understands the differences in how to present the pistol so as to quickly acquire the dot, understands the type drills that help you make the transition to a dot, or train with someone that has zero to little experience shooting an RDS on a handgun?

I'd hazard a guess that Todd has more than zero to little RDS experience, even though he is not a fan...However, the conceptual point is well taken.

@ LSP: to the best of knowledge, nobody has offered an RDS-specific class to date, 'cause I'd be the first one to take it since I can't shoot the damn thing. GJM is right, though - you might want to seek instructions from people who think RDS is the way. So far, Bill Rogers, TDI, and Gabe Suarez have been most vocal endorsers of the technology.

[Lon]

David Bowie at TDI has been using RDS pistols for years and is a great instructor. He'd be on my short list of instructors for RDS. I'd just make sure he's gonna be there for whichever pistol class of TDI you might take before sinking the $$$ into the class.

[gtmtnbiker98]

LSP, look at TDI Ohio, they are big on RDS equipped pistols! David Bowie is one of the lead instructors and he has been running an MP9 with RDS for a few years, now. Worth a look. Benner and gang are good people.

[LSP972]

Would you rather have an instructor that shoots an RDS, understands the differences in how to present the pistol so as to quickly acquire the dot, understands the type drills that help you make the transition to a dot, or train with someone that has zero to little experience shooting an RDS on a handgun?

Of course, the first. That went unspoken. I didn't realize you were making an oblique reference to someone's level of experience, but now I'm tracking with you.

I suppose Rogers is equally not enamored of the concept?

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[GJM]

Of course, the first. That went unspoken. I didn't realize you were making an oblique reference to someone's level of experience, but now I'm tracking with you.

I suppose Rogers is equally not enamored of the concept?

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Rogers flat out says that any good shooter will shoot even better with RDS. He has a RDS carry gun or two, is designing holsters for them, and believes they are THE future.

[LSP972]

David Bowie at TDI has been using RDS pistols for years and is a great instructor.

I know David. He's built four guns for me. In fact, I took delivery of the latest one (G30 w/full grip reduction & trijicon RDS inlet into the slide) just yesterday.

I was looking for something a bit closer to south Louisiana. I have driven up to the Cleveland area to shoot trap, but its a bloody long way to Ohio from here. And I imagine the TDI classes have those pesky tactics/mindsets modules too.

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[LSP972]

I'd hazard a guess that Todd has more than zero to little RDS experience, even though he is not a fan...However, the conceptual point is well taken.

@ LSP: to the best of knowledge, nobody has offered an RDS-specific class to date, 'cause I'd be the first one to take it since I can't shoot the damn thing. GJM is right, though - you might want to seek instructions from people who think RDS is the way. So far, Bill Rogers, TDI, and Gabe Suarez have been most vocal endorsers of the technology.

Got it, thanks. I briefly looked at the Rogers synopsis... a whole week sounds like an interesting time. I'm sure David @ TDI would be worthwhile, too.

Suarez has some screws loose, besides his other issues. I don't want to be anywhere around him or his sycophants..

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[LSP972]

Rogers flat out says that any good shooter will shoot even better with RDS. He has a RDS carry gun or two, is designing holsters for them, and believes they are THE future.

THAT's the guy I need to visit. Thanks.

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[JohnN]

LSP, look at TDI Ohio, they are big on RDS equipped pistols! David Bowie is one of the lead instructors and he has been running an MP9 with RDS for a few years, now. Worth a look. Benner and gang are good people.

From everything I have read you would be well served by taking a class from Bowie, if I am not wrong he was one of the early adopters of the concept and probably has the most time using one in defensive situations.

Last year when Todd came to Indy to instruct Speed Kills and SOM we had a fella that had a G19 with a mounted RMR. He was having issues throughout the class making good hits. However, I think the class would be helpful only if you were fairly comfortable with your chosen platform. Todd is an excellent instructor but I am not sure trying to learn how to use the RDS while participating in the class would be helpful.

[DocGKR]

I didn't have any problems with a G19 RDS at ToddG's class, in fact it was quite a help in transitioning to the RDS, as always, YMMV...

[JohnN]

I didn't have any problems with a G19 RDS at ToddG's class, in fact it was quite a help in transitioning to the RDS, as always, YMMV...

Sure, but you didn't pick Todd's class as your first serious training class to run the RDS in. Didn't you have quite a bit of time using the RDS before you came to Todd's class?

This concept really appeals to me especially with deteriorating eyesight but after seeing it used in a class, not so much.

[DocGKR]

We began experimenting with slide mounted RDS on duty pistols in early 2010--initially using dovetail mounted Dr. Optics and ITI mRDS.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/90444-MCOperminiRDS.jpg

By mid-2010, we had switched to trying DeltaPoints and RMR's in milled slides.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7021&filename=M&P45%20RMR.jpg

We also looked at micro Aimpoints mounted on slides; while loving many aspects, we did not like the existing mounting options or difficulty with holsters.

By the end of 2010, we became convinced that the RMR02 milled into a slide with BIS was the best option for a serious duty or carry pistol.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7020&filename=Glock%20RMR.jpg

I decided to dedicate 2011 to only carrying and shooting RDS equipped pistols and began adding RMR's to my personal pistols.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7360&filename=RMR%20Glocks.jpg

ToddG's class I took in March 2011 was the first high round count training class I took with an RDS equipped pistol.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5532996040_1c457fe549_z.jpg

I also shot RMR equipped pistols at both Pat McNamara and Kyle Defoor pistol training classes during the summer 2011

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7573&filename=IMG_0623.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6153824627_0a52e0268b_b.jpg

as well as using one during a Jason Falla class in the Fall of 2011.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6106/6338342542_5b7d9cc202_z.jpg

Since transitioning to RMR equipped pistols at the beginning of 2011, I have trained with them on a weekly basis--usually putting 150-200 rds through them each session.

[GJM]

I just finished my first formal training course, using an RDS, a two day course with Manny Bragg at Universal Shooting Academy in FL. Firing 2,500 rounds over the two days, across a wide variety of shooting challenges, greatly increased my familiarity and confidence with the RDS. Will try to post an AAR on this very helpful training soon.

[jthhapkido]

I just finished my first formal training course, using an RDS, a two day course with Manny Bragg at Universal Shooting Academy in FL. Firing 2,500 rounds over the two days, across a wide variety of shooting challenges, greatly increased my familiarity and confidence with the RDS. Will try to post an AAR on this very helpful training soon.

Manny's a trip, isn't he? :)

Looking forward to your AAR.

[GJM]

Manny's a trip, isn't he? :)

Looking forward to your AAR.

It is in the course review section.