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CraigS
06-29-2018, 08:14 AM
In Production or in SSP we are limited to 10 rnds per mag. Only been competing for a year and am curious what the reason for that is. Bowing to the gov back in the clinton gun rule days? I shoot a Beretta 92 which used to have standard mags of 15 rnds and now 17 rnds. Dang frustrating to need to do a mag change for 1 or 2 more rnds to finish a stage.
Yes, I realize everyone in the class has the same restriction but it still seems kind of silly. Heck my M&Pc carry gun is stock w/ 12 rnds and I also have 15 and 17 rnd mags for it.

okie john
06-29-2018, 08:53 AM
It keeps the playing field level for folks who don't live in free states. Plus, a forced mag change isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Okie John

spinmove_
06-29-2018, 09:14 AM
What Okie said. It’s a game, not defensive encounter scenario training. Production is probably the most level playing field as the guns are going to be about as stock as you can make them and no one has a round count or overall equipment advantage.

Also, by forcing people to work with 10 round limits, it forces you to plan out your stages better and think about how to most efficiently complete a stage.

If you don’t like it, you can always compete in Limited or something else. There’s nothing that says you must compete in Production.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

GuanoLoco
06-29-2018, 09:28 AM
What Okie said. It’s a game, not defensive encounter scenario training. Production is probably the most level playing field as the guns are going to be about as stock as you can make them and no one has a round count or overall equipment advantage.

Also, by forcing people to work with 10 round limits, it forces you to plan out your stages better and think about how to most efficiently complete a stage.

If you don’t like it, you can always compete in Limited or something else. There’s nothing that says you must compete in Production.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

It helps differentiate the ‘real’ Production shooters from the riff-raff. With planning and skill the mag changes add little to your time, although they increase time and disaster quite a bit for the unskilled.

People like to think Production is for new shooters. I think the exact opposite.

Peally
06-29-2018, 09:33 AM
Limited minor is the new shooters division.

The point of the limit is to indeed have everyone on a level playing field. Production is not the division to shoot in if you don't like stage planning and reloads.

Clusterfrack
06-29-2018, 10:39 AM
I like the Production division because it’s challenging and very competitive. The 10 round limit, and minor PF make for a dynamic balance of accuracy and speed. And of course hit factor scoring makes the USPSA game the best on the planet!

Jim Watson
06-29-2018, 04:15 PM
1994 AWB bans private citizens from buying new magazines larger than 10 rounds.
USPSA says "No problem, plenty of grandfathered full size magazines out there."
USPSA vendors selling "magazine repair kits" like hotcakes.
1996 IDPA organized, says "We want to recruit new shooters buying new guns and magazines, we will have them follow the law."
USPSA says "Hey, this IDPA thing is doing well, we will set up Production and Limited 10 divisions with 10 round limit for the new guys."
2004 AWB expires, many people keep on shooting USPSA Production and IDPA which continue 10 round limit for rule stability and accommodation to state laws.
2004 to date: Internet full of "Why can't I load my gun all the way up for Production and IDPA?"

ST911
06-29-2018, 04:51 PM
Unless you're shooting in the top percentages of clubs and competitors, does it matter? Around me, guys that win or place well do so in whatever division they're shooting, even against open and RDS guns. Shooting major vs minor seems of more consequence, but still less than many might realize. It's just not a big deal, local-level.

Peally
06-29-2018, 05:01 PM
Rules is rules, whether the shooter is competent enough or not is irrelevant.

ranger
06-29-2018, 05:12 PM
Production (and IDPA) was meant to be the "anti-Limited/anti-Open" opportunity to compete without spending a very large amount of money on specialized firearms, optics, magazines, etc. Also, as pointed out earlier, multiple locations were magazine capacity limited. It also allows a wider variety of firearms (aka sponsors) to participate. The goal was to not have another "arms race". Anther thread - not to drift this one!- might be "why do people compete in Production and IDPA with pistols that will never be actually used outside of competition?"

Peally
06-29-2018, 05:22 PM
Because some people (like myself) are uninterested in competition specific firearms, just like some guys like F1 and some guys like racing mazdas.

HCM
06-29-2018, 05:32 PM
It keeps the playing field level for folks who don't live in free states. Plus, a forced mag change isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Okie John

This ^^^.

10 was the legal limit for a decade, plus people like round numbers.

Spartan1980
06-29-2018, 08:21 PM
I shoot single stack (usually minor) because my gun isn't on the list (STI Trojan). And because SS (major) is the next best thing to revo. Like said, it's a game.

And Peally is right, Limited minor is where newbies should start. It allows learning of safe gun handling and fundamentals without being overwhelmed by mag changes, stage planning, and moving into your backup plan when you blow (miss steel) a position. When I get better at the DA/SA I'll move to CO (slowpen) with a CZ Shadow 2 and Production with the P30.

olstyn
06-29-2018, 08:33 PM
I flip between Production in "real" USPSA in the summer and Limited minor in an "outlaw" winter league that doesn't have classifiers and therefore doesn't "count." Even going from 10 to 14 or 15 rounds in the mag grants a huge amount of additional flexibility in where you plan your mag changes. I won't say that Production requires more planning than shooting Limited minor with the same gun, but it definitely requires *different* planning, and as others have already said, the disaster factor when you goof something up is significantly higher. I'd say the disaster factor issue is really what makes Production more challenging than Limited.

I don't think that necessarily makes it a bad place for newbies to be, though. If you're new, I think you get even more value than experienced people do out of the additional mag change practice. Nothing like doing it a bunch of times to [eventually] learn to do it right, and if you can get out of the mindset of "I must go super fast," at least at the beginning, I think shooting in a limited-capacity division does pay long-term dividends in learning stage planning.

Clusterfrack
06-29-2018, 09:26 PM
Doing a bunch of slide-lock reloads is a sign that a new shooter might be better off in Limited for a few more matches.

GuanoLoco
06-29-2018, 09:54 PM
Doing a bunch of slide-lock reloads is a sign that a new shooter might be better off in IDPA for a few more matches.

I joke, I joke!!!

Gio
06-30-2018, 07:01 AM
I personally dislike the 10 round limit and wish they would change to 15, 17, or a mag length limit like 126mm. The 10 round limit makes stage planning boring and linear in my opinion and severely limits your options for creativity.

rob_s
06-30-2018, 07:05 AM
I think there's a vocal minority of capacity whiners, that I hope don't get mistaken for representing the opinions of the majority of shooters.

I love the 10 round limit. I (stupidly) shot Limited when I first started shooting USPSA because I (mistakenly) thought that having 15 or 17 rounds in the gun was more tacticaller.

olstyn
06-30-2018, 07:39 AM
I personally dislike the 10 round limit and wish they would change to 15, 17, or a mag length limit like 126mm. The 10 round limit makes stage planning boring and linear in my opinion and severely limits your options for creativity.


I think there's a vocal minority of capacity whiners, that I hope don't get mistaken for representing the opinions of the majority of shooters.

Even 12 rounds would significantly increase flexibility/options in stage planning on a lot of courses of fire. Whether that would be good, bad, or "eh," is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think it would be fun, but it would hurt people who get into the game with the gun they have, and that gun happens to be a G26 or similar which only holds 10. (That was me - my P99c was the only gun I had for the first 3 or 4 years I was shooting USPSA - I instantly jumped a class when I bought the full size because it's easier to draw with, easier to control recoil with, and has a half inch longer sight radius, so obviously the compact was the wrong gun for the game, but at least it wasn't also at a capacity disadvantage for the division.)

RJ
06-30-2018, 07:54 AM
Good thread.

As a complete noob I had not considered Limited Minor. I'll look into that.

I do realize now after fumbling through five matches that slide lock reloads mean I screwed up. Best advice I read recently from GJM was to reload between arrays of targets, planning to shoot 8 or so at an array. I carry five mags on my belt so at the last match this worked well for me. I still sucked but no slide lock reloads.

As to why 10 rounds I agree with the 'account for equal scores in ban and non ban states'. Guess its the times we live in. It levels equipment / mag capacity differences I suppose as well.

GuanoLoco
06-30-2018, 08:27 AM
The reload when you move thing can get burned in hard. I have to actively suppress the act of reloading for movement where I have enough rounds to complete the next array.

It also makes shooting IDPA a real PITA, but I solved that by not shooting IPDA any more.

YVK
06-30-2018, 09:24 AM
I personally dislike the 10 round limit and wish they would change to 15, 17, or a mag length limit like 126mm. The 10 round limit makes stage planning boring and linear in my opinion and severely limits your options for creativity.

Main reason I am attempting a switch to carry optics right now and looking for a Limited gun as a backup option.

Clusterfrack
06-30-2018, 09:45 AM
I personally dislike the 10 round limit and wish they would change to 15, 17, or a mag length limit like 126mm. The 10 round limit makes stage planning boring and linear in my opinion and severely limits your options for creativity.

I disagree. It does add risk to some plans.

Bottom line: don’t mess with Production.

Peally
06-30-2018, 09:49 AM
If you don't like production there are 7 other divisions that play differently, plus multigun and steel challenge for communists.

olstyn
06-30-2018, 10:07 AM
If you don't like production there are 7 other divisions that play differently, plus multigun and steel challenge for communists.

I'm not hating on Production - it's my primary focus, and I enjoy it a lot. That said, there is no division where you can shoot a "basic" gun, load the mags full, and not be at a significant competitive disadvantage. Shoot your Production gun in Limited and tell me you feel like it's "fair" competing against custom 2011s and CZs which are all heavier, have lighter triggers, and have between 3 and 7 rounds more in their mags than you do in yours. Carry Optics is probably the closest, but of course that requires an optic, so that's an added cost. There's no perfect solution.

taadski
06-30-2018, 10:11 AM
...Bottom line: don’t mess with Production.


Unfortunately the "messing" has already taken place. I know it would make all the gun tweakers (and aftermarket vendors) tweak, but I'd be psyched if Production was more inline with its original intent of being an unmodified out-of-the-box division. With a 10 round cap. :o

rob_s
06-30-2018, 10:37 AM
I'm not hating on Production - it's my primary focus, and I enjoy it a lot. That said, there is no division where you can shoot a "basic" gun, load the mags full, and not be at a significant competitive disadvantage. Shoot your Production gun in Limited and tell me you feel like it's "fair" competing against custom 2011s and CZs which are all heavier, have lighter triggers, and have between 3 and 7 rounds more in their mags than you do in yours. Carry Optics is probably the closest, but of course that requires an optic, so that's an added cost. There's no perfect solution.

It depends on what you mean by "fair".

I shot Limited (minor, evidently) before I knew better and I was never last, and there was always at least a couple of people below me in the stats with a much, much fancier gun and higher PF caliber.

I've said this before, but most of the mods people do to their Limited guns only serve to provide incremental improvement in the standings, and even then it's mostly at the bottom and the top of the pack.

Clusterfrack
06-30-2018, 10:52 AM
I’ll add one more point: the differences among the USPSA divisions are much smaller than the difference between hit factor scoring and time plus scoring (IDPA & Multigun).

The main reason I don’t compete in IDPA and Multigun anymore is because I find hit factor scoring so much more exciting, challenging, and fun.

HF is what makes USPSA the best.

RJ
06-30-2018, 12:28 PM
I’ll add one more point: the differences among the USPSA divisions are much smaller than the difference between hit factor scoring and time plus scoring (IDPA & Multigun).

The main reason I don’t compete in IDPA and Multigun anymore is because I find hit factor scoring so much more exciting, challenging, and fun.

HF is what makes USPSA the best.

Yep. The whole points per second concept took a bit for me to wrap my head around.

I did this math after getting -30 for a FTE and 2 Mikes missing a target during the walkthrough. Makes an impression. And not getting 2 Alphas...no bueno.

I sucked at my last match, but it was a lot of fun.

Peally
06-30-2018, 01:06 PM
I'm not hating on Production - it's my primary focus, and I enjoy it a lot. That said, there is no division where you can shoot a "basic" gun, load the mags full, and not be at a significant competitive disadvantage. Shoot your Production gun in Limited and tell me you feel like it's "fair" competing against custom 2011s and CZs which are all heavier, have lighter triggers, and have between 3 and 7 rounds more in their mags than you do in yours. Carry Optics is probably the closest, but of course that requires an optic, so that's an added cost. There's no perfect solution.

Honestly the average skill level at a local match is low enough where it doesn't really matter. Power factor would only start to hurt if I had to compete against guys hitting maybe A, M, and GM.

YMMV but as a beginner I wouldn't have cared. I shot a 10 round 45 in L10 to start off. Moved to prod with the same gun just so I could be scored against someone. Made A, then finally switched to a 9mm. Right now if I really wanted to I could shoot limited, we all compare scores anyway ;)

JSGlock34
06-30-2018, 01:30 PM
I think there is a messaging disconnect between Production being offered as the entry point to the sport ("It's the Division for out-of-the-box pistols!") while requiring the novice shooter to acquire more magazines, more magazine pouches, and then navigate a more complex stage plan due to the additional reloads. As others have pointed out, Limited Minor is always an option, but that's hardly communicated as the on-ramp to USPSA.

Peally
06-30-2018, 01:35 PM
Before the new website you'd be hard pressed to learn there was any division other than open based on their photos.

olstyn
06-30-2018, 01:41 PM
I think there is a messaging disconnect between Production being offered as the entry point to the sport ("It's the Division for out-of-the-box pistols!") while requiring the novice shooter to acquire more magazines, more magazine pouches, and then navigate a more complex stage plan due to the additional reloads. As others have pointed out, Limited Minor is always an option, but that's hardly communicated as the on-ramp to USPSA.

It definitely requires the least investment as a "try this and see if I like it" option, but of course if somebody wants to really get competitive, Limited adds up fast. I bet my entire Production setup (gun, mags, holster, pouches, belt, everything) has a lower total pricetag than most dedicated Limited guns, without even adding in the cost of belt, mags, pouches, and holster.

Clusterfrack
06-30-2018, 01:42 PM
Before the new website you'd be hard pressed to learn there was any division other than open based on their photos.

Yup. And there are still high overall winners identified at some matches.

CraigS
07-01-2018, 07:57 AM
Thanks guys, this an interesting discussion. As I suspected it began w/ the clinton gun law. I don't really care that much, and am definitely not complaining. It is more a curiosity. I decided last year when I shot my first IDPA match that I am doing this to improve my skills w/ our B92 defense guns. So far I have only shot that one IDPA match and then an IDPA classifier, 4-5 Steel Challenges, and 5 Tues night very local 3 stage USPSA-like matches. Last Tuesday the 10 rnd limit really hit me as I had to reload for one more shot. I don't really understand how the scoring works yet but I am having a lot of fun, learning a lot, and usually somehow manage to place middle of the 15-30 shooter pack.

JMS
07-01-2018, 09:53 AM
If you don't like production there are 7 other divisions that play differently, plus multigun and steel challenge for communists.

^ *DING*

Seriously. If picking another division is odious, then...and this is gonna be WILDLY offensive to some...

...maybe *gasp* get better at the things that'd make one more competitive in one's chosen division. Or league. Or activity as a whole, for that matter.

When did getting BETTER (particularly at one's weaknesses, perceived or objective) become not-the-point?
When did *minor* disparate restrictions become a Trump-wall to doing so?
What's the payoff for those insisting on fostering the attitude that they *do* represent such obstacles, when they don't?

Bucky
07-03-2018, 05:38 PM
I’ve been running the limited capacity divisions most the year, and it’s been fun, but can’t wait to rock 29 + 1 this Saturday. :D